After 100 episodes, Case finally has a co-host! Sam Alicea joins Case and guest, Matty Limerick, to tackle Pokemon: The First Movie It’s super effective!

This is part of CertainPOV’s crossover celebrating the 25th Anniversary of Pokemon! Check out the others:

Saturday Morning Confidential looks at the anime!

Let’s Rewatch talked about Pokemon 2000!

Cereal Killer Radio Hour interviews Erica Schroeder!

Fun and Games replays the original games!

Special thanks to Vin Macri and Matt Brogan for intro and outro themes!

SUBSCRIBE: Apple Podcasts • Google Podcasts • Spotify • iHeartRADIO • Stitcher • RSS

Transcript

(Subject to Error)

00:00
Matty
It's that Pokemon, that silhouette. Cheryl I didn't. My grandson loved that 20 years ago. Cheryl I did not know that still existed. I got some of them cards up in my attic. He just left here.

00:14
Case
Welcome to certain point of views, another past podcast. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another past podcast. I'm case Aiken. I've got a wonderful guest, but I also have some big news because this is the 101st episode of this show, and I felt it was time for a little bit of a paradigm shift, a bit of a new generation, a second season, if you will. And to do so, I felt that I was going to stunt cast this one. So I kind of felt that I needed more opinions, or rather a more consistent second opinion on all of this. And that is why I have asked Sam Alicea hello to be my new co host.

01:04
Sam
Fanfare Fanfare.

01:13
Case
So, listeners, you may recall Sam from the killing joke episode or the Christmas Prince, the royal wedding episode. Both winners, yes, both hallmarks in the series. But from now on, you can expect her every time. And I am so excited to have you, Sam.

01:31
Sam
I'm so excited to be here. Thank you. Thank you for torturing me with sometimes great movies and sometimes terrible movies. So excited.

01:41
Case
And that's going to be an interesting one today. So as part of a bit of a podcast crossover, we are colliding with Saturday morning Confidential. And so today we've got Matthew Ryan Limerick.

01:56
Matty
I'm back.

01:59
Sam
Welcome.

02:00
Case
And that crossover is we're talking about Pokemon, baby.

02:05
Sam
We are talking about.

02:09
Matty
Best you can't have that ever was.

02:13
Sam
Exactly.

02:14
Matty
But to train them as my true test. To train them as my cause, though, I figured you can't have a 25th anniversary of the game franchise without talking about the first movie for both Japan and America, that I remember being monumental as a pop culture iconic moment.

02:35
Sam
It was. To this day, I believe, and someone can fact check me, but I believe it's still like the highest grossing anime film in the US of all time. Like in theaters in terms of anime films, not animated films, anime films. But yeah, it was really popular animated fun fact.

02:55
Case
It was the highest grossing for two weeks. Then two weeks later, Toy Story two came out.

03:00
Matty
Thank God. Could you imagine, like, could you imagine being the top grossing animated film ever?

03:12
Sam
Wow. Yeah, right.

03:13
Case
Well, and now we get into weird lines because you get into the Disney remakes that are animated movies of anthropomorphic or not even anthropomorphic, just like I'm thinking the Lion King. The Lion King is what I'm thinking about. It's animated movie, right?

03:26
Matty
Yeah, totally. Absolutely. It's computer generated. It's animated.

03:30
Case
Yeah. It's not the live action Lion King, but. So that whole test of everything is very different now. But we're going back to the Halcyon days of 1998 to talk about Pokemon. So, Maddie, like, you brought this to the table. Why don't you sort of explain a bit about what's going on? Because you referenced the reason why we're having this crossover, and, yeah, talk about what you're doing.

03:55
Matty
So this is coming out in the week after the actual 25th anniversary of the japanese release of the first two games, which were red and blue in Japan and then subsequently in America. And then the anime kind of very quickly came on the heels of, yes.

04:13
Case
Case, it was red and green in Japan.

04:15
Matty
Red and green. Oh, it was red and green in Japan. Yes, you are correct. And then red and blue in America, which I'm still a little butthurt about. Why bulbasaur or not know. I know I like squirtle, but I am a grass trainer. You can't see my bulbasaur literally right above my head, but I got a bulbasaur right above my head. And so I felt we needed to celebrate that because Pokemon means a lot to me in very different ways. It's why I'm a gamer now as an adult, and I'm one of those adults that never kind of outgrew this. And so I figured for you, case, because this is the place where we can talk about bad movies and give them a second go, or we can talk about great movies that we don't need to give a second go.

05:01
Matty
And this falls somewhere in that, you know, also, you're my budy that I talk about nostalgic things with. So I figured this would be wonderful. And I'm so excited. Sam is here for this as well.

05:13
Sam
Well, I mean, it's rated g, and I think that's for a good time. Whether that good time is. It's an adventure. This movie is a journey. Whether that journey always makes sense, that is up to us to discover today. But it is fun. It's got a lot of puns. I love it. Jesse and James, big fan. Absolutely. They are icons. They're amazing. So, yeah. Where should we begin?

05:46
Case
Well, I think it might be important to talk a little bit about our association with the franchise when this came.

05:51
Matty
Oh, yes.

05:52
Case
Absolutely. The three of us are all a little old for the crowd of being like the diehard I grew up with Pokemon phase. We were all either in junior high or high school when it sort of hit. And it was one where it got big, but it was like my little cousins were really big into it. And then I was like, you know what? I'll give it a shot. Oh, shit. This place like Final Fantasy. I really like this. And the cartoon. I watched the cartoon because it gave tips on the game, and that's how I got really invested in it. But it was everywhere.

06:23
Sam
I watched the cartoon for Jesse and James. I'm not even going to lie. I love them. I love their entire trio. I love all the punny kind of dad joke humor. Like, I loved that cartoon a lot.

06:38
Matty
I got into it because, again, most of the listeners know I come from a super conservative background, and so I desperately wanted to be friends with the other boys. And all the boys at my school totally bought the first Pokemon game. They watched the show, but we didn't have cable. So on my antenna channel, it came on at like 230 just as were getting home from school. I wouldn't always see it, and I just wanted to be liked by the other boys. And so I clung to Pokemon as this thing. One, it was super cool, but I just wanted to be like the other boys, and I fell in love. So I didn't actually play the games until silver and gold came out, but I was into the cards.

07:18
Matty
Nobody knew how to play them, but we all had them, and I watched the show anytime I could. It was just, I got any of the books the library had. This was pre Internet in my home, but, yeah, I was eigth grade, so, like, 13, so a lot of the boys were heavy into it in my area, so I was heavy into it as well. Yeah.

07:40
Case
And it's interesting to see how long it's lasted because at the time when this came out, it was just another trend of pop culture stuff that had taken over the childhood zeitgeist. We had transformers, and then we had Ninja Turtles, and then Gi Joe was in there somewhere, and then we had Power Rangers. By the time we get to this, there was like this vibe of like, well, is this going to last? I think two things from that one, all of those things that I referenced before seem to have faded and then came back hardcore in a way. That stuff didn't really happen before. You see a little bit of fandom for gforce or Heman. There are people who are, like, action figure people, but there's no one who's like a die hard he man cartoon stan.

08:28
Case
There's more so with like, she ra, but even has, I don't know, it just doesn't have the same vibe as Ninja Turtles still has, like, a hardcore fandom and still exists a new form consistently. Transformers is still constantly getting new cartoons and still has hardcore fandom that's really into it. Power Rangers has full on conventions and all these other ones have conventions too, right? But, like, pokemon never went away. It was going to be the hot thing, and then it just stayed.

08:57
Matty
And then it still references things from the beginning. We continually go back in both the games. The mean. I was mean. It's been out a couple years now, so spoilers for anyone for Detective Pikachu. But the fact that this american movie literally references this animated film as canonical in the same world, I went, oh, fuck. Literally. It's one of those things that this is also a franchise where people can casually like the part that they grew up with and ignore everything else that's happened in the franchise. Because you have the people that are all of our ages that are like, yo, the original 150 are the best, and you have some of us that have kept playing through. And then some people that were like, yo, diamond of Pearl is the best because it was the first game.

09:43
Matty
And that's actually what, something that's brilliant about this is. You can take what you want and hold it tight to you and then leave everything else. If you don't want to play the new games, you just want to play Pokemon Go. You just want to do everything. And honestly, with Pokemon go coming out, you've got people who have never thought about the franchise before who suddenly know more about the Pokemon than I do because they play it 16 hours a day, because they're at a job that walks, or because they have enough time to go walk. And they care about Pokemon because of Pokemon go. It's such a weird position in the zeitgeist. But then you also have the people that were like, oh, I didn't know that was still around.

10:23
Matty
Because it's one of those things that if you're not tangentially a nerd or you don't have children in your life, you could completely go without knowing that this thing still exists. But it's something that, even if you're tangentially a nerd, you know, it's still around.

10:36
Case
I actually want to push back on that one. I don't think it's possible to not know that it still exists. Like Hillary Clinton referenced Pokemon go in one of her campaign speeches.

10:44
Matty
Okay, that's fair. Enough.

10:45
Sam
I think that there was like the summer of Pokemon Go. There were mass swarms of people running in swarms, like honest swarms running from one end of Central park to the other together. So even people who had not downloaded this definitely saw some weirdos running around and other people just holding up their phones while they were walking through suburbia. I'm just sure that there was just like a bunch of people like, what's going on? Oh, it's those Pokemon goes.

11:17
Matty
It's that Pokemon that's still around. Cheryl. My grandson loved that 20 years ago. Cheryl, I did not know that still existed. I got some of them cards up in my attic. He just left here.

11:31
Sam
Even in the late ninety s, people were calling them Pokemon and bug me so much.

11:38
Matty
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, and you've got the people that are still trying to. They're still holding on that they're going to be millionaires because they have that charizard, that original charizard card. Even though it's beat up and peeled corners, they're still going to make millions off it. And you're like, girl, sit down.

11:55
Sam
Whenever I hear about stuff like that, I think about the couple who in the mid eighty s or ninety s fought over Beanie babies at their divorce then it has no value now.

12:08
Matty
No value. No value. It's so interesting. Or we're literally, right now McDonald's is doing the Pokemon 25 event, and they've had to be like, you scalpers are ruining this. We don't have cards for the kids. And so literally all the McDonald's in my area have like no more than ten happy meals person. And I was like, what? Yeah, well, the cards, literally, they're just the starters. It's all they are all the generations of starters with a little silver foil like stamp of the 25 logo. It's like, this doesn't mean anything. It's sticker cards. Let the kids have them. No, I also look at it as someone who's, I at 35, play the card game. I love the card game. I've played it competitively. It's so much fun.

12:54
Matty
But it's one of those that I'm not going to use them in my decks because they're literally the starter cards. But talking about cards to bring us back, there were two cards that were given out with this that people went apeshit about. You got the Mewtwo card in theater and you got that, the egyptian mew card. When this came out on VHS, I could be flipping those, but that egyptian mew card was literally, it was social clout. If you came to school the weekend after and you pull it out and you're like, I have the most rare Pokemon card of all times, bow. And I was like, oh, my God. I want it, mom. I want it. I want to go.

13:37
Sam
They're so good at incentivizing children to want things and collectors to want things.

13:45
Matty
Now, a fun story about this. We had a second run movie theater in my town, which I wish those were still a thing. Granted, we're still in Covid time, so I really wish movie theaters were a thing safely. But I'm in Florida, where everything's a thing. But I remember my mother. My parents would only take us when it was, like, 75 cent Tuesdays, and my mom made us leave because I've brought this up before in other episodes, the moment the clones happened, my mom was like, absolutely not. This is the devil's work. This is the devil. We are leaving. I am not comfortable. And so I didn't see the entirety of this movie for years because of.

14:26
Case
That, I just realized this is probably, like, what, two years after Dolly became, like, a huge news story?

14:32
Matty
Yes. This was Dolly. The sheep was huge. They were talking, like, cloning was such a buzword about things, but it was like, mutations and cloning. It's the devil. They'd speak against it in the Bible. And I was like, okay, but why can't I finish this movie? Okay. No. It was huge in the cultural zeitgeist of what were able to now do with science.

14:57
Case
Yeah. So I didn't actually watch this movie back in the day. I think I just missed it in theaters. I was a freshman in high school, and I feel like I had other stuff that I was more focused on. Like, I enjoyed the cartoon, but not enough to be like, I'm going to go pay money to go see it. And then I heard it wasn't that great anyway, so I didn't have a lot of drive to watch it, so I just totally missed this movie at the time. I remember the plot pretty well. I remember it's like, oh, mewtwo. Yeah, I know, mewtwo. Oh, he's evil and he hates other Pokemon. All right. It sounded very generic, and frankly, it's pretty generic as a story.

15:34
Matty
It is very generic as a story.

15:35
Case
Absolutely. I think that there's some weird spots that are both translation spots, and then also just some weird elements of it being kind of a kitty material, using a lot of tried tropes. There's very little in this movie that's like a surprising story element. It's all just like, oh yeah, that's what you do in this type of cartoon for this type of story. But it's not bad. It's just very flat as a piece. But I like a lot of stuff in here. The opening, which I found out wasn't in the original theatrical run in Japan, but was in America, is amazing.

16:18
Sam
That's what they said they wanted to explain to the parents who YouTube was.

16:23
Matty
Well, and also it's because it was originally aired on japanese television, not in japanese theaters. Okay. And so they then released it in theaters. I believe after that makes so much.

16:38
Case
More sense because then that's just the tv movie. That's like the Lord said introduction on Power Rangers where it was like a multipart primetime thing for Power Rangers.

16:47
Matty
Absolutely.

16:48
Case
It feels like that. Okay.

16:50
Matty
Yeah, we got it a year and a half after Japan got it, which I think is really interesting because it got its first release in July of 98 and we got it in November of 99. Also, I think it's interesting to think about that just from the aspect of we now know that as one of the prime Disney release dates and also it's become the Christmas blockbuster time. So that's just before, like the two weeks before that really starts. But that's really ambitious of them to release a film. But I think it's also smart because if they did it in July, kids aren't in school to talk about it with each other. But if you do it in November, that's two weeks before Thanksgiving and a month and a half where you can still do Christmas shopping to add new things to the list.

17:41
Matty
So I do think it is interesting and because it also takes place somewhere ethereally inside of the first season, but it actually doesn't quite fit within that first season because that first season has so many episodes to it, which if you listened to Saturday morning confidential, I cover those 1st 20 episodes or so over there with some fun friends. So go see what we had to say about that. But it's one of those weird things where this feels like watching it. I watched it last night and then rewatched it today and it has probably been ten years since I watched it last and I remember it being with nerds and just being wasted the last time. So I was like, this is so good. But I feel like maybe it's just that entry part two.

18:35
Matty
It watches like a tv movie because we have points where we can dissolve to blackout and the movie itself watches like a very long episode of a tv show versus being structured like a film to me. Yeah.

18:48
Case
Like I said, there's a lot that I do really like about this thing. It does sort of feel like you said, it is a tv movie. And that makes more sense now. The fact that it was theatrical in the US is more just speaks to Pokemon as the thing that made this even happen in the first place. They're like, oh, they have a tv. Yeah, we can sell that. Kids will fucking go see it clearly.

19:11
Matty
Because most anime has movies. That's kind of happened all over time. Like, since the 80s, anime has had a movie and they get very limited release in Japan. Just like we almost get no release here in America of them. And I believe that's how they treated it as well. It's just they were like, okay tv, okay film. But it does make sense that they went, oh, we've made this a monolith in America. Let's ride this until we can't. Because they probably also felt Pokemon was going to die in the US because that's what happens. It either dies, know, because this was the point. They were about to end Power Rangers. They wanted Power Rangers to be done and they probably went, cool. We got six years out of a japanese property. We're getting four or five out of this. Let's just go with it.

19:52
Matty
Let's just make the money that we can. Because that's also when we had ugly toys at this point too, of it. We didn't have the good japanese toys. We had the ugly american toys.

20:00
Case
Yeah. And this is the time where the Deek dub, I think, of Dragon Ball Z was dying. They only ran to halfway through the second season of the show. Or however, the season structure is really weird when you get into the Namek stuff, but Dragon Ball Z was like the other big anime property coming over. And they also didn't expect it to kind of persist in the US. It was just like, yeah, it's going to be really popular. For a little window, we'll make some money, and then that'll be it.

20:28
Sam
And on the opposite end, you've got Sailor Moon. That it's never really quite appropriate for children, honestly.

20:35
Matty
Right, well, and this is just before the afternoon block, Toonami would release on Cartoon Network as well. And so this was a fox. I know for where I was, it was a Fox syndication. A lot of friends I know say that it was their WB, their kids WB syndication was who had their Pokemon. But it does also make sense that this is before you could come home and watch a block of anime on Cartoon Network. This is back when you could either come home and watch PBS kids or you could know Fox was one of the only ones or kids, WB that were doing afternoon blocks other than like, Disney had been doing it for a while through their syndication.

21:17
Matty
So it is interesting to also look at this as like, just before Cartoon Network developed their Toonami block, which also just combines that idea of Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball Z, which would go on to have their life as well. Yeah, and it's hard to.

21:40
Case
It's hard to talk about this movie without talking about the show and everything. It just feels like such a part of, like, the things I really like about it. So I mentioned I really like the opening, but the rest of the show or the rest of the movie, the thing I really like about it are stuff, generally speaking, from the show, like Meowth, I fucking adore.

21:55
Matty
It's one of my favorite.

21:58
Case
The stuff that are referential to the show. Like the who's that Pokemon that Jesse James has. At one point that was really good. I was like, oh, that's really cute.

22:07
Matty
Did y'all catch that when they were like Alakazam? And it is clearly scyther. Clearly scyther. Which isn't surprising to me just because of how dubbing works. But yeah, it's so clear to me, especially knowing that the japanese reviewers actually really liked this film. And they talked about it having depth of character and a darkness, even though it was a children's series. To then talking about that. They tried to make it as american as possible for the dub, which meant losing a lot of the depth that they were trying to develop with the japanese script. Which again, happens so much during this era of adaptation of anime. I mean, card capture, Sakura. It happens with a lot of the animes that were of this time, Sailor Moon. Good God. Talking about Sailor, I think 2001 would have been Sailor Moon s. And so that just.

23:01
Matty
I mean, they just beat that to hell in making their adaptation.

23:05
Sam
They didn't even really like, honestly, they pretty much showed the first few seasons just on a loop in the early morning and they didn't even get further on. I wouldn't know about a lot of the other Sailor scouts if I hadn't been reading the manga because they were just like, oh, a lesbian, a couple. Never mind.

23:27
Case
No, they're cousins now and we'll only show a few scenes.

23:31
Sam
Yeah, cut everything.

23:34
Matty
And were on the breath of them getting ready to release silver and gold as well as go into the next series of the anime. So something that this also sold was the Pikachu's vacation where it's just the Pokemon. It is this cute 20 minutes. And I'm a little bummed that I rented it on iTunes case, I think you rented on Amazon that the Pikachu's vacation wasn't included because we meet snubble and we meet Meryl. And then in the beginning, the opener, which know Ash, a random guy coming out of nowhere in a team magma or the Ruby Sapphire character, I was like, oh, that's an icon we're going to bring back in a little while that like a randomly challenging action. He's a dawn fan, which is a Jodo region Pokemon. And so that was also.

24:26
Matty
They sold that really hard of, like in the poster. I remember loving this poster, having the mew and Mewtwo and then all the Pokemon behind them. And you could see snubble, you could see Don fan, and you could see Meryl and Togepi because they were those first introductions to this idea that were on the breadth of a new region of Pokemon. And so that was, to me as a kid, it was a huge selling point of, we're getting more. They're more than 150. Oh, my God, we're getting more. But it's so interesting because I also was thinking about, like, since the beginning, we've got that bop that is the Pokemon theme song in America. And mew and Mewtwo open the credits. They open the japanese. And. And so, you know, it's interesting for them to be like, oh, this is who Mewtwo is.

25:12
Matty
This is who mew is. Knowing. It was kind of in the forecast of who they were going to bring in. Well, also because the games, we knew because the games.

25:20
Case
Yeah, that's interesting. I keep forgetting that Toga P is technically generation two because he's associated him so much with the show, which I think of. And again, I kind of faded off after somewhere in the first season, maybe the second season. So I keep thinking of Togapia as being like Gen one because I think of the show as Gen one. But that actually works really well with the thing I want to talk about later, which is great. Let's talk about some of the things going on, though, with this actual movie because it is super short and very straightforward. Like, I was surprised at how quickly we get into the main plot and exclusively the main plot, and then we're done. The movie is just over real fast.

25:58
Matty
There's no real b plot to this at all, or c plot other than, oh, there's a missing woman and weird mysticism from the literal harbor master, but we can get into that later.

26:10
Sam
I actually wrote in my notes. I was like, whoa. I don't remember there being the prophecy. I was like, but it's here. There's a prophecy in this a little bit.

26:21
Case
Kind of makes sense. Like, those kind of tall tales sort of fit like the old maps of here, there be dragons kind of stuff going on. When looking at it, you can kind of picture fishermen talking about there's scary stuff that happens out in the mist or, like a loch. This monster kind of thing living on the edge of the unknown of the waters. The shores kind of fits. Like, you could imagine seashanties about, like, a giant fish, like, living outside realm of sight. That part's not weird. Well, yeah, exactly.

26:53
Sam
About a giant gyarados. Yeah, I want to hear that.

26:56
Matty
Actually, the second gen, I would like to hear, too. Don't spoil my thoughts.

27:07
Case
So that part's not that weird. The later part where it's just like, there's a prophecy that the Pokemon can save the dead or whatever.

27:12
Matty
That's work. It's weird.

27:15
Sam
But they do. But they do. They complete the prophecy because they literally.

27:20
Matty
I'm so stupid. I'm so stupid. That literally just landed in my brain. And I've probably seen this movie 20 times.

27:27
Sam
Like, they do.

27:28
Matty
I'm so stupid.

27:29
Sam
The only thing that could save someone or, like, a Pokemon now or from the waves is, like, pokemon tears, but there are no Pokemon tears. And when ash, by the way, I did kind of cry a little, guys, I'm going to admit this.

27:43
Matty
I always do.

27:45
Sam
But when Ash is like, turn to stone. Spoiler alert. For anyone who hasn't watched this in years or ever, what's your problem? Go watch it. And he's turned to stone. And Pikachu, who loves him, tries to shock him awake, which both makes me cry and laugh a little bit because I'm like humans and electricity, not really good pika. But okay, I get it. You're doing what you can, right? And then all the other.

28:11
Case
Pika.

28:12
Matty
Clear.

28:12
Case
Pika clear.

28:14
Sam
Exactly. And so that all the other Pokemon see this emotional moment of this Pokemon fighting to save their trainer, and they all feel terrible. And not just like the regular Pokemon who have, but the clones. The clones, too. And they all cry together. And then Ash is reformed, and Mewtwo grows a heart like the Grinch.

28:44
Case
Yeah.

28:45
Matty
But it is a sudden change. It is a sudden change. In mean, he's really just a very strong. Can I tell you, I literally was like, mewtwo and Franklin Richards are the same character, like a brat with, like, psychic. A brat with these kinds of powers. And I was like, he's literally just a toddler. He's just a toddler who doesn't understand and is real angry and needs, like, that's really what mewtwo is for most of this.

29:15
Case
It's a trope.

29:16
Sam
I kind of face. He's kind of magneto to me.

29:20
Matty
Oh, yeah.

29:21
Sam
He's absolutely. The humans did us ill. And just like, even the whole idea, like, no. Those Pokemon are willing to be slaves, so they don't deserve a life either. I'm going to create a new world with my new Pokemon, and we're going to rule this world, and we're going to be fine without all of you.

29:43
Case
So that's kind of the thing that this movie sort of brought into crystal clear focus that is always sort of an issue with Pokemon. And this is the thing I don't like about the franchise in general. And this movie really focuses on it, which is that it's basically just super cockfighting or pit bull fighting, like, whatever you want to call it. It's the worst as a thing.

30:06
Sam
I think what is interesting is that you say that, but then the movie brings that point up and then tries to defend itself. Right? Oh, I know. Because they're like, they won't be slaves to you, and I'm going to be the best Pokemon monster. And then when the Pokemon are fighting their own clones and they're really going at it like, misty and the nurse and everyone on the side is just like, pokemon are not meant to fight like this. Like, they qualify what the, like, know they're meant to fight, but not to the death and not each other. It's to fight your skill, like an MMA fighter, not like a pit bull or a cock in the ring.

30:48
Case
Yeah, they're having that conversation. And not only are we getting straight up rocky two level, just, like, slugging it out while about to pass out kind of blows, we've got, like, gyarados, like, biting each other's necks. We're talking about really vicious moves right there.

31:03
Sam
Listen, the crystal clear focus psyduck is clearly doing it right because they're just slapping the crap out of each other, and I feel like dramatic queens. Yes. Go at it. Just smack each other. Stay alive. I support you.

31:18
Case
Yeah.

31:19
Matty
Today, watching it, I went, okay, I get that. This idea of wanting to clone, but if anybody who has played the game knows the worst thing, and it's just the most toiling battles are having a Pokemon and facing the exact same Pokemon.

31:35
Case
I know, I have a note about that too.

31:37
Matty
And I'm just like, yeah, it literally becomes monotonous because, like, great, we all have water moves. Let me use strength for my blastoise that I use, because let me use this one ground type move that I have, or let me use this one move that my fire type has. But I was like, this is like, I know. Mewtwo doesn't probably actually understand a single thing about Pokemon because the time between the escape from the lab and the invitation to the island are blurry. They reference that she's been missing for a month.

32:11
Sam
Yeah.

32:12
Matty
So I get that he doesn't understand, and I get that they probably didn't want to animate too many Pokemon, but it's one of those moments where I go, I don't particularly enjoy watching the same Pokemon beat the shit out of the same pokemon, especially because it is so savage and so raw.

32:30
Sam
I felt like I had to rationalize that for myself, though, because I felt like this is me. I feel like a Mewtwo apologist right now. So I feel like he wanted to prove that the clones were better than the originals, which is why he sent the originals after the clones specifically, which is why he didn't do, like, a matchup. Like, I'm going to have my water Pokemon go against your electric Pokemon or whatever.

32:55
Case
But that's actually my note there, which is that would actually have been the interesting choice when it's two like, types and they have this whole thing where Mewtwo suppresses their energy powers, which, okay, cool. What are you doing to normal Pokemon or flying type Pokemon where it's like, yeah, sure. Ultimately, I guess they are just going to use their melee attacks and so forth, and that'll be really boring and slow and painful and just fucking dogfighting. But also, if you're going to try to prove and also collect new Pokemon, if you're taking the Pokemon away that you beat, why would you just put your blastoise against a different blastoise? Why not have your clone blastoise go against the pikachu and be like, look how awesome my blastoise is. He can no sell your lightning bolts.

33:39
Sam
So what you're saying makes all the sense in the world from a real Pokemon trainer's point of view. But from Mewtwo, who is just trying, and I don't know why I'm fighting this so hard. I'm not winning anything, but I think from Mewtwo's point of view is that he's made improvements to the clone. And I think that for him, this is less about the clone battles and a Pokemon battle and more about him trying to prove that his existence is valid. I've lost.

34:11
Matty
Deep.

34:11
Sam
I've taken too many pages of. Sorry.

34:15
Case
It's okay. Because when the first clones showed up, besides Mewtwo, I was like, oh, cool. I'm digging the weird marks on their body kind of thing. The charizard just looks like a digimon or whatever the main Digimon character is. But I'm digging it because it made me think of Thalog's clones from gargoyles. And I loved that so much. It was perfect. I was so excited about that. And then none of the other clones had that, and that was so lame. And I kept thinking, like, damn, I wish they were shiny. And that would have been fucking great. And this is what you guys were saying before, that would have been the perfect.

34:48
Case
Because I was like, well, this is kind of wrong for the introduction of gin two, but actually, if this was the introduction of gen two for the cartoon and for everything, how fucking cool would that be? And that's kind of like my little more. This is getting pitch territory. But God damn it, the clones should have been the shiny Pokemon.

35:07
Matty
Yeah, I agree. I also, again, this will get in pitch category. I was like, why didn't you literally combine Pokemon to make greater Pokemon who are then impervious to the other types? So you have a Pokemon that is strong against two or three types. It's those moments of, we still didn't have fairy type. We didn't have dark type. They were coming. Dragon wasn't its own type really yet for what it is now. Also, Dragonite. Is he a clone? Where is he? Does he ever come back? Is my goodest boy with his little messenger bag? Who is he? Or the pharaoh with the spy cam?

35:48
Sam
Yeah, they definitely dropped some balls there.

35:52
Matty
Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. I'm angry about a children's movie.

35:57
Sam
That's okay. I just offended Mewtwo's choices, so I think we're equally par.

36:02
Matty
I mean, it does make sense because we do have to look at it from that standpoint. I actually have always really liked Giovanni in a way that the other team leaders never are as strong or efficient for me as Giovanni is because he's kind of like thanos in many ways that you ultimately kind of understand what he's doing. And in some know, at different parts of my life, I was like, bitch, I would have joined Team Rocket, please. Between Jesse James, Butch and Cassidy. Like, let's mean, it's one of those things that it makes sense now. I will say the choices of Pokemon were unusual to me because also we see these three new trainers who have come out of nowhere who we've never seen before, and we see great Pokemon from them, though unusual team balances.

36:56
Matty
From the girl, I was like, why you got two water and two fire? And then, like, a fairy? Whatever. It's just me or the other guy that I'm like, oh, that's a really good elite for kind of taking on the Pokemon league between Scyther and Hitmon chan and vial Plume and those kinds of things. Like, oh, that's not a terrible team choice. But then why we only see the babiest of baby Pokemon from our three heroes? Because I know there's inconsistency from Ash sending back Pokemon to Oak and catching new Pokemon, but I know Broxella's onyx and geodude with. And we see Starmie earlier, but then Starmie never shows back up.

37:41
Case
Yeah, I have a note of, like, why don't we see Brock and Misty's Pokemon in the actual final confrontation?

37:45
Sam
I actually feel like, it felt like they cheated, right? Because they were supposed to take all their Pokemon out, and they never did.

37:53
Matty
Well. I think the point was that they were uneasy about that idea, because at no point has it ever ended well in the show when all the Pokemon are just hanging out together. I referenced the three fighting brothers. It's the first time we meet. We learn about the evolution stones. At that point, it's the little boy with the Eevee, and his three brothers are the electric, the fire, and the water, and they've got the vaporeon, the jolteon. And that's when Ash is like, come on, Pikachu. Don't you want to become a raichu? He's like, pikach, which I believe translates to fuck all the way off.

38:27
Sam
Yeah, seriously.

38:28
Matty
Pikachu's got some Matt like. And then, of course, they bring in Charizard to nerf the moment. But I've always had issues with Charizard in the anime anyway. I was like, I don't care about a bratty Pokemon. This doesn't make it interesting to me. But this is after they've deviated from the games, and so we don't actually have a game moment, because even I believe the way you meet Mewtwo in the game is just like, he's in nature, he's there, whatever. So they're literally swinging from left field and creating this is as they're deviating from the games in the show as well. So I guess this is a bunch of grown adults sitting in a room writing for characters in a way they haven't before. But it's still like a weird group.

39:10
Matty
Like also like wiggly tough, but like ninetales makes sense and Knitto queen makes sense, but having two vulpixes adorably wrestle with each other while ninetales is literally ripping each other's throats out. Like, it's so weird.

39:25
Case
I think one of the things we have to remember is that in a world where you actually are interacting with these animals and so forth, one, you might not encounter them the way in the great variety you do in the game. And two, you might actually have personal connections. If I had two dogs that I loved and raised from puppyhood and I guess use them for fighting, I would still probably hold them close to my heart and really not want to switch them out.

39:49
Sam
Case is regretting that analogy.

39:52
Case
I hate. Look, it is so hard to talk about Pokemon, the abstract, fun kind of it's so cool to do the cartoon animals kind of thing. And there's a stat sheet, which is why it's good that Pokemon aren't like a fighting game. Like the tournaments and so forth aside, the fact that it's just you're going down a menu and doing text based combat stuff because like, fuck, man. Can you imagine a mortal Kombat style Pokemon game?

40:18
Sam
Oh my God, no.

40:19
Case
Because that would be the worst. Pokemon is fun and nostalgic for all of us. And there's all these nerd things that we all enjoy and all the stuff about the types and the sheer variety and all these fun things. But fuck, man, Pokemon fighting is so hard when you actually put it in any way into the real world in your head. And so that sucks.

40:43
Matty
And this is about the time that were starting to see a lot of anti dog fighting legislation. This is just a couple of years before Michael Vick would get in trouble for his dog fighting rings. And so I feel like this doesn't need to be said, but I'm going to say is that none of us here encourage animal violence. I would never want that. I literally sprayed my boys earlier when they were fighting on the bed because they were taking each other's. So like, I hate the idea of animal fighting. And it is weird because also it's that idea. We all go, oh, we know what our teams would be. But I was like, we also know that we all would probably be like NPC kind of people. And I would have found a couple Pokemon.

41:22
Matty
I love and then opened a theater company or something. Or I'd be the dancing Evie Kabuki girls in the second game.

41:33
Sam
I would just really try to support Jigglypuff's music career and be supportive every time people fell asleep on them. And I would just be like, I'm really sorry. It'll work out next time.

41:46
Matty
Well, and I think that's why I believe it's Ruby and sapphire. When the idea of a Pokemon coordinator came out, the idea of beauty contests for Pokemon, which, again, that's beauty being problematic, but the idea was to love your Pokemon and dress them up and bond with them because the stronger your love bond, the stronger their attacks will be for an exhibition sense. And so there isn't that idea of fighting. And they did introduce that. And I thought it was very interesting later in the anime that they would go into this idea of Jessie being a coordinator. And Jessie wanted to be a coordinator because she loves Pokemon, which is, again, I think Jessie and James have some of the most amazing character development throughout the thousand episodes of Pokemon that we've had.

42:34
Case
They're like Bulk and Skull, who had a ton of character development. We talked about Power Rangers because it's hard for Maddie and me not to talk about Power Rangers when we're on an episode, but it is that scenario. It's the side characters. They literally play the same role. They're recurring antagonists that are not actually that bad. And so they are allowed to continue to exist. So it's not weird that they keep showing up and as a result, they can actually progress and grow in a way that heroes are often not allowed to because they have to be morally right at the beginning. And while they may deviate for short periods, they always have to resume that morally right standpoint.

43:09
Sam
Yeah. Can we talk about how Meowth's clone just kind of came over and was just like, yeah, I'm not doing this.

43:17
Case
I am so bummed that Meowth couldn't talk to me too, because I.

43:23
Matty
Love the idea of the abnormality of Pokemon being able to speak because we have the Lapras, who had a psychic move and could speak, and mewtwo speaks. And there is also that novelty of Meowth being their universal translator, this idea that all Pokemon can understand each and. But, yeah, I do love the meowth of all of them. It's like, yo, we're not doing this. I don't have the energy. I am more evolved than this.

43:52
Sam
They had a split moment where they both took out their claws and then the clone was like, meowth. And he was just like, yeah, me neither. You're not into this? Not me either. And they just sat down and kind of watched everyone, and I was just like, that's mood. There's like that right there. Me office mood. He understands. He gets it. Can we also talk about the music? The music during the battle scene, the last battle scene about brotherhood that was kind of like, it felt like an 80s power ballad. But I don't know, guys. I had real feelings, but I don't know what they were. It was just really surreal and weird to me.

44:32
Matty
They went hard on this soundtrack because if you look at the actual soundtrack, they had people who were up and coming. They were like b list pop stars that were doing the state fair circuit but were getting a lot of traction. And, yeah, the soundtrack, I remember to this bops. But then I also remember that none of it's in the movie, actually, because this is still that point where we're getting the score and we're getting the soundtrack inspired by. Because this is when they're releasing the to be a master albums and stuff as well. So they were doing the, like, oh, we can do Pokemon pop music. It's a thing that can happen. Including that very, the ending theme, which is, like, very Christina Aguilera.

45:12
Matty
It might have actually been Christina Aguilera, but it's one of those things because I have always depreciated from the early Pokemon movies. The american film score is actually really great. I actually really like the instrumentals, and I think they do a lot to move the emotions. And to me, it's one of those where, like, I'm feeling super emotional. And then I actually giggled at that song because I was like, I get that. What they were trying to do. But you could also tell that it was a room full of older white adults making the decisions for a kids movie. And again, it's just one of those.

45:47
Sam
Things that I wrote down one of the lines and it literally said, brother to brother. While the clones are fighting their Pokemon match. I was like, y'all, this is way too on the nose. Like, what are you doing? It's just like, here we are, brother to brother. And I was just like, oh, my gosh. Because the thing is, before that, earlier in the movie, you get Mewtwo learning what his powers are, right? Like, kind of training, and you kind of get a music montage there. But that montage is actually really good. Feels really in the moment. It's like fast paced. The music seems to fit it. It's not, like, too cringy, corny kind of thing. And this happened, and I was like, oh, no, what are we doing? Are we doing this right now? We're really. Oh, okay. All right. Okay. Pokemon.

46:42
Sam
I see you really sending this home that we're fighting ourselves.

46:47
Case
Yeah, I got real transformers the movie vibes on this. A lot of ballad versions of familiar songs. I don't know. Look, I feel like I want to kind of get into pitches because this movie. Do it. It's fine. There's a lot of things that are, like, fine, but it just doesn't quite nail it. And so all these things are like, oh, yeah, these are all kind of good things. I'd like to emphasize. Before we get into that, though, I do want to take a quick break to shout out one of the other shows on the network. Video games are a unique medium. They can tell stories, immerse us in strange, fantastic worlds, blur the very boundaries of our reality. But at the end of the day, video games are fun, whatever fun is to you. I'm Jeff Moonan. And I am Matt, aka Stormageddon.

47:33
Case
And on fun and games, we talk about the history, trends, and community of video games. It's a celebration of all the games we play and all the fun we find within them. And there's so many more games out there, so we hope you'll share in that conversation with us. Fun and Games podcast with Matt and Jeff. Find us on certainpov.com, or wherever you get your podcasts and happy gaming. So, talking about pitches, I think that there are two spots where we can discuss what we would do in terms of or where we would go from fixing things. So, there is the original creation of the movie in Japan, and then there is the translation of the movie into America. And I think those are kind of the two spots where we kind of focus on what is our actual.

48:15
Case
Another pass here, because I think there's a lot of stuff that didn't make it over or got weirdly translated. That is a weird choice and kind of affects the quality of the movie. And then there's stuff, like I said, the shiny stuff or the clones. Could have been these chimeric kind of combinations of Pokemon creating the gin. Two Pokemon in the first place, could have been a thing. But those are all, like, early. That's the Japan side of it, the actual creation side. So we could talk about both. We could talk about whatever. But where would you guys start with this? Maddie, you're the guest today. Why don't you go first?

48:53
Matty
So, I think we have to approach both because I think there's still some basic storytelling things where you've still got to work with the film. You have, because you have to match the flaps, which every time Bubbasaur just goes, sir. I think it's because his mouth moves just a little. And they were like, oh, fuck. He's got to say something crap. And I think because the movie starts off in a really exciting way because I'm remembering it from the idea that we get a little of that idea of the mewtwo in the bubble, but I remember it kind of launching right into the narrator from the show and ash being hungry, which is, again, it's from the show, and then them getting into a fight with that theme song, and you're just like, whoa.

49:39
Matty
So I think there's a way for us to look at both versions because I think there was also. This was before the Pokemon company was the monolith. They are. And they didn't have their hooks in all aspects of the production because I believe this is for kids when they were doing all of this was still for kids for the Pokemon company, which is why there is a lack of darkness to this, even though there is some very kingdom. I'm sorry. Also, Mewtwo is totally part of organization 13 from Kingdom Hearts. Just there is no light without darkness and no darkness without light. We shall be the best versions of ourselves. So I think I've got to say both case for you, because I think if the japanese version had tightened up some of the aspects of the movie, they couldn't have deviated as much.

50:35
Matty
I mean, the Americans fuck everything up anyway at this point. So I think they still would have fucked it up. But I think there's a more interesting story now. I'm a big Giovanni Stan. I'm a big team rocket Stan. So I would have focused more on Mewtwo as a tool and developing his personality as a partner for Giovanni and then realizing that Giovanni has actually been lying to him. So, like, this idea that I think I would start the movie the exact same way with open up on ash and misty, open up on some brand new gen two Pokemon. It's awesome. Give us that fight. But maybe have it be somebody that was set up by Team Rocket. I would love us to not be given all the Mewtwo answers from the beginning, but there's this idea that the battle happens.

51:26
Matty
They start moving towards their next city, and then there's an explosion that they see off the horizon. And they, being the heroes, rush to that next city and that has actually been Mewtwo breaking out of the lab and Giovanni coming to give him the olive branch, if you will, to convince him, even though that Giovanni's been in on it the whole time. Because also in the anime I just looked up, there's the episode of the anime that takes place right before this. It is showdown of the poke corral. It shows Mewtwo escaping from the lab in the tv show and destroying Giovanni's gym. And then the next episode takes place immediately after the movie. And it's called the evolution solution. Which is? Which is at the poker out. They're still at the poker out. Or it's involved. So it's there somewhere.

52:26
Matty
So why not also just have it pick up from the show in a way, because I still think even if you pick up from the show and you're pulling it out, you can watch this story. So I guess for me, I would have it where Giovanni gets Mewtwo, gives him the olive branch, but knows how to inhibit the psychic, so maybe not make him all powerful from the beginning. Because again, he is a literal baby. He is just birthed and has come to consciousness and it ends up going to this way where eventually there's a contraption that falls off of him. So like maybe he does have that mewtwo armor. He does have something and doesn't realize that he is actually being controlled by Giovanni.

53:06
Matty
And then what happens is mewtwo rebels against all humans, and Ash and Team have been there tangentially trying to stop Team Rocket because they're stealing Pokemon, but it seems like they're disappearing in the blink of an eye. And it's because Mewtwo is teleporting them in and out. He's using his psychic abilities. He's making people go to sleep. He is that ultimate tool. And so it's Ash and team. Maybe with some of the other gym leaders. I would have loved to see like Lieutenant Surge come back because this is after Ash gets the last badge, but before the Indigo League. So honestly, he knows all the gym leaders. This could have been a really cool moment instead of giving us three random trainers. Bring back Sabrina because she was a scary, really controlling psychic. She could have immediately been brought in for this.

53:56
Matty
They're doing this crime patrol thing and then it ends up that they have to team up with Giovanni and Team Rocket at the end to stop Mewtwo. And Ash ends up convincing Mewtwo. So maybe still have the clones have it be where know this idea in Gale of Shadows in XD, which I know is not connected to the rest of the games from Coliseum where they're making the shadow Pokemon. Maybe they are cloning Pokemon together. They're doing these things. Team Rocket is gone too big. And all of those Pokemon Mewtwo takes control and they don't know how they're going to stop them. And then Mewtwo takes all the hybrids and leaves at the end. So maybe that can still be the end. Ash can still get so injured that he dies. And then that's when Mew shows up. Later is Professor Oak shows up.

54:42
Matty
They've had to hunt down Mew or give us a b plot where maybe the gym leaders. Misty has to lead the other gym leaders and go find Mew. And then Brock and Ash stay behind and they're helping Professor Oak. And so there's a way that we could get a really interesting a plot, b plot and maybe even a little c plot to then immediately feed right back. Or we get, I forget who the professor is in gen two. Maybe that's the professor that shows up and has to help them. And that's when we meet the new three starters or we meet another large Pokemon from. This is a way they could have actually really integrate Granbull because we've just seen snubble integrate Meryl or Azu Merrill because we've just seen meryl. Give us some of know bring back dawn fan, bring in ursaring.

55:33
Matty
Some of these very large Pokemon that can help them. So I think that would be, this isn't as clear and concise pitch as you normally bring case. But I think I would go with this idea where they've escaped from Team Rocket and then Ash and team has to help. Maybe not help Team Rocket, but Giovanni has to pull up his bootstraps as a gym leader to help the other gym leaders because he is. I would love to see this oath as gym leaders that they have to come in and help protect the region because they are the strongest, they are the greatest. They are the leaders. And so Giovanni has to put aside maybe his team rocket coat and pull on his gym leader boots and help save the day against his own creation. I think is where I would go with my pitch.

56:22
Case
Yeah, I think that's a really solid component of that. One clarification, what actually happens in it? I'm asking right now when mew is a clone, right? Like, they find the dna of mew and they recreate mew and then they decide they want to improve on it. Right? It's not they found an old mew.

56:41
Matty
I think it's that they found. So this is one of those things where I think mew exists out of time and space, much like celebi does in the fourth film, because, for spoilers, celebi dies in our timeline, and it's the first time we see a Pokemon die, shrivels up and fucking dies, and Suicune shows up and saves the day, blah, blah. But we learn that celebi, because they exist as the nature spirit, they exist throughout all of nature, throughout all of time. So I'm thinking that mew, I actually would like it where mew isn't a clone, that mew is locked in that tablet, like the egyptian tablet is the top of a sarcophagus. And so maybe mew sleeps for centuries. Sleeps for millennia. And this was a way that humans were trying to keep mew.

57:36
Matty
They thought mew was dead, and so they open it, and they think it's just a well preserved mew. And then mew wakes up and escapes first, and they go, oh, it doesn't matter. We have the DNA. I think it's okay to open with mew and have mew tangentially be there, but also maybe mew be their deus ex machina and not be there for the 35 minutes battle. Maybe it's trashed at the end. And then mew comes out of nowhere, or mew has been asleep this whole time, and mew wakes up. It's one of those things that it's a. Or mew can't wake up until mewtwo reaches full consciousness. And so when the thing falls off, mew also wakes up.

58:22
Case
Okay. Yeah. Because that's, like, one of the things that is a question in the original versus the american translation. Like, it's still there in the american translation, but it's more of the point. But I kept on being like, but wait, the way they describe it sounds like they found the remains of a mew and they cloned mew and then wanted to make a better mew. And then mewtwo really doesn't like the idea of being a construct and hates mew. But also, isn't mewtwo and mew both kind of constructs in this, or at least, like, genetic experiments?

58:52
Sam
Well, what I thought was that what I took away from the american translation was that they found DNA and used that of ancient mew and was able to basically create mewtwo. But they didn't know that mew still existed. So mew kind of came out of nowhere as existing. And, I mean, every now and then, that does happen with a species where everyone assumes that they are or they can't find them in nature, and they're like, oh, they're extinct. And then one pops up, and they're like, holy crap, they're not extinct. There's at least one that we know of in the real world.

59:28
Case
We have sealicanth two.

59:29
Sam
Yeah. So I kind of thought that's what had happened, and I actually did kind of feel that the whole reason Mew decided to leave where they were safe and sound was because all of a sudden, Mewtwo existed in the world, and they were like, oh, wait, let's go. Also, I wrote several times in my notes, Mew is cute, so I'm fine with him being around for 35 minutes.

59:56
Matty
Well, I think it would be interesting, because they're both psychic, to do something with a psychic connection between the two of them, that we're in a world where what Pokemon do, I'm assuming, is part of their genetic coding. And so I feel like if it is a direct connection, much like twins have a psychic connection or they have a feeling or familiarly, this can happen. Why not have it where Mew literally gets flashes of what Mewtwo is experiencing or Mewtwo is getting flashes of mew? And that is why Mewtwo is so confused.

01:00:32
Case
Sam, you said you have a lot of notes. Where would you kind of go? Because I feel like we're going to end up blending all of.

01:00:37
Matty
Yeah.

01:00:38
Sam
Well, I actually very much agree with the extending Giovanni's role. Not necessarily to the extent of a Giovanni stan, though.

01:00:50
Matty
I'm sorry. I'm so, no, it's fine.

01:00:52
Sam
It's fine. I'm not judging only slightly, but honestly, for me, I just felt like, I think that the movie was trying to have this juxtaposition at the beginning and the end. Right. There is some attempt at calling back. Right. Like, circular things. Like, even with the prophecy and things like that, they try to go around in full circles and close things off, even if they don't do it effectively. So I think one of the things that I really noted is that the beginning, especially because it moves so quickly, because even though it's fast paced, they're treating everything as if it's exposition, because they're like, oh, let me just explain something to you people that may not know. Here you go. Right.

01:01:37
Sam
But I think that they needed to kind of really build out this relationship with Giovanni and Mew and show Meu kind of, even though not understanding why he's wearing the armor, having more trust in Giovanni building this idea of, like, I trust you. You're my trainer. You're the person know, like, you saved me when I left that lab, that kind of thing. So that when the betrayal is actually figured out, when the betrayal is actually known, and I think that scene wasn't really shown, right. You just kind of hear like, giovanni was behind it all along. And I feel like you had to have the moment where Mewtwo realized that he was being used to capture Pokemon, that all of his training was actually to build up this gym, that all of his training wasn't for him.

01:02:26
Sam
It was for Giovanni, and he wasn't really cared for or cared about. He's not really a partner. So without feeling that true betrayal, without seeing mew go through the experience of having that betrayal, of processing the betrayal, you don't really understand the kind of power Pikachu has later on when Pikachu will give up almost anything and begins to cry for his trainer who just sacrificed his right, like, and then if you clarify that at the beginning, then you can kind of make sense and kind of flush out that end so that Mewtwo really understands. Like, wait. There are humans in this world that would give up, and there are Pokemon in this world who feels the same. Like, friendship is a real thing, and it is possible between all of you. Wait.

01:03:30
Sam
And then it's okay for him to fly off with his clones and go to make his world, but because that beginning part is so rushed and so thrown together and because you don't really get the betrayal in the beginning unless you know the characters, right? Like, if you know Giovanni, you know the backstory, if you played the games, then you kind of understand how misunderstood Mewtwo is. You understand that he's really a grinch or a magneto. Like, he's actually a little bit of both, right? He's a mixture of those two people. He is a creature that is created just to be used and really for the profit of this man, because he wants to win everything and he wants to win it all. And he's a tool. Like, he's born to be a tool.

01:04:19
Sam
He doesn't even have an identity outside of that and the anger of that and then watching all these other Pokemon, just, like, being willing to be tools. What is your problem? Why are you willing to be tools? Why are you willing to just work for these people that would do nothing for you? You disgust me. I don't want to see you. I don't want to see them. I'm going to get rid of you. There's a whole world that is just kind of unexplained because you don't really go into that betrayal. And it would be very simple. It'd be a simple scene that you could just kind of inject in there to really have a confrontation between Giovanni and him and then have him escape.

01:04:59
Sam
And you can even put a B plot where Giovanni and Team Rocket is maybe looking for Mewtwo to kind of figure out how to get him back. And in the end, maybe you even adjust it so that Ash and Pikachu and the team, the sacrifice that Ash makes is not necessarily just for all the Pokemon, but actually for Mewtwo to get him away from. Like, he's going there, he's helping. He realizes that things are wrong. But at the very end, you think that Giovanni might get Mewtwo back, and Ash makes this sacrifice, and he gets turned into stone and basically stops Mewtwo from know everyone and from hurting each other and still had the same emotional end for me, where Pikachu is crying and everyone is crying and then find prophecy and the Pokemon tears cure ash.

01:05:56
Sam
But basically, Mewtwo is so moved by the sacrifice that ash made for him. A Pokemon he didn't even know a Pokemon. He didn't even train a Pokemon that was in all ways disgusted by him and disgusted by even his Pokemon and wanted to rule the world and maybe have him reassess, like, am I my creator's monster, or am I my own person? And I need to go find that out? And that's how he fixed it. I would keep most of the movie the same. I would keep all the Brock lines the same. I'd keep all the team rocket stuff the same. But I would make that adjustment on the script end just because I think that in itself might fix a lot of the issues that this simple script has. And it's fine to leave it simple because it was written for kids.

01:06:46
Sam
Maybe you don't make it super complicated, but I think just, like, just fixing that one thing and really making that betrayal and maybe throwing Giovanni in at the end, really, like, I'm going to capture him. Because why would he let this Pokemon go? That's not his character at all. So I think he would definitely still be hunting him. It would probably also get another half hour out of it.

01:07:12
Matty
Well, this is a movie. Honestly, if it had been 90 minutes, I would have been okay with it, honestly. Because if they'd used it well, the only other thing that I thought could be interesting is to bring back the.

01:07:25
Case
Fight instead of 35 minutes fight.

01:07:27
Matty
Right? Oh my God. Would be at the end when everything's going. If we saw, because they talked about the water spirit and everything, that it was a water thing, if we saw the outline of Lugia in light, because that would be the next movie, like a year later, I thought that would have been really cool. Even though it's not the same region, I don't think it would have mattered because again, we've got another team rocket like people. And I believe Giovanni is in the next. So. Which if you tune into. Let's rewatch.

01:07:59
Case
Wary about going too hard into the later lore on this because even the american dub didn't have all that information.

01:08:07
Matty
No.

01:08:08
Case
So I am wary of being like, well, obviously we could tie this into a thing that happens four years later just because they wouldn't have this information. It would be conjecture. I don't know.

01:08:20
Matty
What is your pitch case?

01:08:21
Case
All right, so taking it from just a translation standpoint, I think this would mostly be doing fixes that. I wish that we could exacerbate on the actual production side. But the translation standpoint, honestly, the two big things I have an issue with, aside from the awkward opening after the mewtwo, like I said, I really like the opening mewtwo origin bit, especially to make it feel like a movie. But then the opening on Ash and Brock and Misty just like hanging out and that's like with the narrator, and it just feels like an episode of the show. And then the trainer runs up like, that's a little weird. I wish they'd opened in media res.

01:09:03
Case
But the fact that we get to the end of the movie and Mewtwo just fucks off with all the clones and I feel like he hasn't really learned a lesson that much. And I don't know what's the, like, there's this vat he's going to learn about friendship.

01:09:19
Sam
Sorry.

01:09:20
Case
So there was this theme that was more so in the Japanese that they downplayed in it, which was about like, where, what is your origin? Why is that important? Versus in the movie they play up this whole, like, well, you shouldn't fight that way kind of thing. And it's like this really forced story point, which is just really awkward. They're giving this whole speech about it, but it's also, again, the premise of the franchise. So I'd really rather not call too much attention to it if we could help it. Like, stop talking about how bad it is that they're just hitting each other because sometimes they just hit each other, hit Monchan just hits people. That's never going to be different.

01:09:53
Case
And I would love to have a translation that sort of more focuses on the finding the origin of who they are and the spiritual journey for Mewtwo at the end, maybe with the clones, if he had to leave with the clones and keep the japanese ending and focus on that as what the actual arc for the character is. But if I was on a production side of things, I would then actually make that very much so, the story, like the way that you guys were saying. Because at the very end of the movie, I would like Mewtwo to go off and return each of these clone Pokemon to wild Pokemon of those same types, and then at the very end of the movie, kind of go off with mew on his own spiritual journey to figure out who he is.

01:10:37
Case
Because the unifying factor of them being clones isn't that big of a thing, really. It would be different if they were, like I said, if you were saying that they were like hybrids, if they were like these chimeric components where it's like, all right, well, we've got both a dragonite and a charizard fused together into two heads, like Ghidra or something. That would be a different story where they wouldn't fit in any sort of community. But the clones that we get, even if they did the shiny ones, which I think would be appropriate timeline wise, that they would have the idea that could be a plot point going forward without it being too established and would be a cool way to do it without them having to draw all these new types of Pokemon.

01:11:17
Case
They had all these on model things that they could kind of pull frames of animation. From animating standpoint, it makes sense to have all these similar Pokemon, and that's why they didn't have the tattoos on them. But I feel like a color flip is not that big of a change, and that would all work really well. It's also not that big of a change in the game, which is why it was a thing that they could do. So introduce the shiny concept, introduce that, have that there. But how cool would it be to unite that blastoise with more of its own type? Because they are animals. If the blastoise is going to go on and have a healthy life, it would find more of its own kind.

01:11:55
Case
Likewise, if the charizard was united with a bunch and you saw it have a mate and start laying eggs or something at the end in a postcard, that would be a really nice kind of story point. And then I would love the idea of Mewtwo just kind of going off to figure out who he is with mew side by side. That's like the ending that I kind of want now. I would keep the opening the same. I would, like I said, open after the credit drop right there. And goddamn, they need better CGI. That opening title looks so low res and so terrible after not bad animation, but just the Pokemon, the first movie. Just like it looks like such direct to video, which I know it was in Japan, but it's so bad. I can't believe that made it into theaters.

01:12:41
Case
Then open with them in media res in the fight with that other trainer. That way you could have ash be talking about Pokemon fighting and getting advice from his trainers to sort of set up their relationship with each other. I feel like they really missed a goldmine for having that kind of a scene where they could have him switch out what types of Pokemon they're using, have a fight that's really engaging and being like, this is what Pokemon's about. And drop some basic Pokemon wisdom. It's like, okay, he switched to a water type. Now you know what to do. Pikachu, get out there and charizard, come back. Whatever way you do it, give it a scene where they are explaining the nature of the game and of the challenges that they do.

01:13:29
Case
Like that trainers fight each other in the context of the actual battle and have that exposition occur in the midst of it all, I think would really draw audiences in and hook them. Then what I would like to do is have them move on. Don't do this invitation kind of scenario. Have them move on to a gym that they find empty and they find the invitation there to this island. Because presumably he would have reached out or mewtwo would have reached out to the gym trainers, like you were saying. And I think that would be kind of the cool spot where that's when ash then goes out there. And I love your idea. I wasn't thinking about the trainers part, but that's brilliant because I was just thinking, or rather the gym trainers. That's a brilliant way to do it.

01:14:10
Case
Bring back the continuity of the show because you can explain who most of them are pretty fast. You don't need to know everything about them. But it's a really nice uniting point on that one. Like I said, the shiny Pokemon would be where I go. If not, I would go, gin. Two, I wouldn't go into totally new types of things because then people would want them to exist. There's no way you could have a Gyarados onyx hybrid that people wouldn't want to exist in some way, but then have those Pokemon, like I said, if they're going to fight each other, fight. Or rather fight. If you're going to have Mewtwo's Pokemon fight other Pokemon so that Mewtwo can claim them, have him send them out to show off how tough they are against things that are the bad types.

01:14:53
Case
And then you can even talk about the lore of the games because I think that's always sort of like a fun, self reinforcing factor of Pokemon media, that it reminds you of the video game mechanics but doesn't feel alien to the world. Like, the game doesn't feel an abstraction of the anime. They both feel like they are part of a consistent through line together. So that when you go to play the game after you watch the anime, it feels right. And if you play the anime or play the game first and then come to the anime, it feels right. It doesn't feel like the 90s Super Mario movie where there's nothing really connecting the two.

01:15:28
Matty
Right? Well, and it can also be that moment where Mewtwo thinks being a good Pokemon trainer is teaching your Pokemon how to be as powerful as they can be, when really it's about bonding with them, and it's not about the battle. It's about their trust in you. And that's what he learns because that's the one thing that was betrayed by Giovanni. And so he thinks it's just the power. And so I think it's actually that thing of, and again, this is a very Frankenstein's monster thing, but it's that idea of, as children, we don't understand compassion right away.

01:16:01
Matty
And so I think it's that idea of having to teach Mewtwo this idea through Ash and Pikachu and also having Charizard there was probably not the best option because Charizard hates Ash for most of the show, having the Pokemon that he really is bonded with and see that they are willing to fight together with Pikachu also, because the only thing I hate in that initial fight is that Pikachu nerfs a venomo moth, a golem. And I forget what the third Pokemon is in one shot. And we know that Ash's Pikachu is special, but that's even a lot for this point in the anime. For Pikachu to just nerf three, really, you know, it's also the idea of squirtle taking on a machamp. It's like, okay, we get it. They're all the special ones, because it's the squirtle squad.

01:16:55
Matty
Squirtle and blah, blah, and the abandoned charizard.

01:16:59
Case
Well, but, you know, like, in the game, your starter Pokemon matters way more than just a random one. You like, I played squirtle when I played through initially, and I tore through gym trainer types. That should have wiped the floor with it. And that's fine. That's the thing you can really play up. I think if Mewtwo's Pokemon had something to the effect of a scenario where in the game terms, they had big, strong moves that didn't have a lot of uses, like hyperbeam. And that was a kind of element that you don't spend too much time on saying the logistics of it. You don't need to say you only get five uses of this attack, but say, like, oh, it's really taxing to do that. And Mewtwo was always focused on the one hit wins.

01:17:49
Case
And then he actually had to deal with Pokemon who were like, because they were trained properly and not just given the best moves and given a bunch of candy all of a sudden, here's one that's able to actually hold its own for more than a few hits. And because you're running out of your moves, you've got shit that you can do. That would be a much more interesting element of a nature versus nurture. Because Mewtwo's thesis ultimately in this is that he has been made to better and that he can do the same thing to other Pokemon and that this will be like a superior race.

01:18:27
Sam
It is.

01:18:29
Case
And show off, like, no, you need to have more than just that. And you need to have training and you need to have a culture. And if at the end, Mewtwo takes all of his clones and just integrates them back into their own, brings them to families and finds more of their type, and allows all the ideas he had to now actually become just part of pokemon culture. Even cooler to have literally the best of both worlds at the end. And then, like I said, having you two go off and find his own people. Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't change any of the team rocket stuff. I like your Giovanni stuff, like build that up. Like, have the trainers be established, man.

01:19:12
Case
You know, aside from I wish clone Meowth could talk too, so we could get a little bit of back and forth on that one and we get a little bit more there. Those parts aren't the problem. It's more just like the dialogue is a little clunky and I know that they're not really doing a good job, and they're trying to force this whole no, fighting this way is bad, but fighting the normal way is good. And don't make us think too much about it, please.

01:19:35
Sam
That was awkward.

01:19:37
Matty
You could tell there was a 90s sensibility of antiviolence among mom groups. And so a lot of that was, like, shoehorned into this in a really rough way. Now, I have a question for both of you. This has a 16% on Rotten Tomatoes. Do you think it deserves a 16%?

01:19:56
Sam
No. I think that's harsh.

01:19:59
Case
Well, you got to remember, though, rotten Tomatoes isn't 16% bad. It's like, only 16% of people thought.

01:20:06
Matty
It was good right now. 63% of the audience thought it was good, which sounds more along the lines. CNN, for some reason, reviewed this movie. So I won't understand this. And this is doing a movie podcast. Why news outlets randomly review 20 year old movies like in 2019. I don't get it. Because it wasn't an important year for this movie? Well, no, it was the 20th anniversary. I'm stupid. But it said, pokemon, the first movie, is a dose of low budget Japanimation that were it to be proficiently executed, would rival Scooby Doo is the most astounding work of art of the 20th century. I'm so confused by this review. I'm so confused.

01:20:53
Sam
Did they like it or did they hate it? What does that even, you know what?

01:21:00
Matty
No idea.

01:21:00
Sam
It was the clone part at the end. That's what they mean by the astounding look. I think that as a piece of media, like I said, I teared up. I cried. I felt the moment between, like, Ash and Pikachu and all the Pokemon. And I feel like in the grand scheme of things, the only thing that art can really do is make you feel something. So is it the best executed version of a Pokemon movie? No. I mean, there's definitely ways that it could be fixed. It's a short movie. It's not going to end your life if you decide to watch it. There's some really great jokes in there. There's some really great Jesse and James moments. If you liked the cartoon vikings, they mostly live in. Exactly.

01:21:49
Sam
You know, they continue Brock thinking that every nurse is pretty and that they look familiar, except that she really does look familiar because she is the kidnapped person and he's actually right. If you enjoyed the show and things like that, they did kind of go with the trope that mewtwo basically made them feel like it didn't exist anymore, like it was all a dream, but it wasn't a dream. You just all think it is kind of thing, which I was like, okay, but I think that for the most part, it's a fun movie. And if you're like, sitting with a youngster and you put it on, they're probably going to watch it all the way through and they're going to have a good time.

01:22:33
Matty
Let's be honest, this show kind of also kicked off this game, kicked off another kind of genre of anime of this idea of pocket monsters, this idea of monster partners, because we would get Digimon and monster ranchers and monkoling knights and umpteen zoids, everything that is this kind of idea of a human connected with a monster kind of deal, fighting. But I always say I go to Pokemon for the games and I go to Digimon for the good show. So I've never gone to Pokemon for a good, like, it's nostalgia, but it's not particularly good. It's literally to continue to sell product. It makes you go out and buy plush, it makes you buy action figures, and it makes you buy the next game.

01:23:23
Matty
And if it doesn't, well, your little brother's going to be old enough to want to play it in two years when the next one comes out. And that's all that matters.

01:23:31
Sam
Yeah, basically.

01:23:33
Case
Yeah. Really. I just wish this had set up gen two a little bit more without going, me too. Probably too hard into it, but, like, a little bit more. Like you said, they're on the cusp and I wish it emphasized that a little bit more. And that would have done it. That would have made it the classic in everyone's minds.

01:23:52
Matty
Well, can I tell you what was released literally the day after this movie came out in american theaters? Pokemon Gold and Silver. It was literally released the next day on November 21.

01:24:09
Sam
Of course it was. And that's amazing.

01:24:12
Matty
Of course it was.

01:24:13
Sam
As you said, it's November, so there's still plenty of time for Christmas shopping. So you drop the movie, all the kids are running to see it, and then the day after, you're like, by the way, there are new games. Wink, wink. Christmas is coming.

01:24:30
Matty
We got it a year later.

01:24:32
Case
Yeah.

01:24:32
Matty
I was like, wait, we got it a year later. But in Japan, it came out November 21, 1999. Well, in the anime, we wouldn't move into the Johto realm for another two years, year and a half because he had to go through all of the Indigo League and then not beat the elite four. So it was quite a bit more time in the anime before we actually got to gen two, though. We would start seeing gen two Pokemon at that point.

01:24:57
Case
Yeah. I mean, if this had come out and if they had organized both, like if they had organized both the american and japanese release of gold and silver to come out at the same time instead of that delay, then this would have been one of the most brilliant marketing choices of all time. If they had then had the gen two stuff introduced in the movie. But this movie came out in Japan a little bit before and the lag on all that sort of prevents it from being quite such a perfect marketing kind of lineup of things, though.

01:25:25
Matty
I know we said we don't want to reference things that are coming, but literally Pokemon 2000 came out in America in July of 2000, and this came out in November of 99 in the US. So that's not even seven months, eight months, ten months. So, I mean, I know this was released in Japan in 98, and so it's hard when you're talking about now it takes them. We get the american anime within six months of the Japanese where before it would take two and a half years. So I get that we've much speed it up. We've speed it, sped it up.

01:26:02
Case
I mean, in some cases even faster. Like with Dragon Ball super, they were doing it like, what, almost at the same rate?

01:26:09
Matty
Yes. Well, and there are some that I know we had Erica Schroeder on the show already talking about her time in her like 410 episodes with Pokemon that we're not far behind, I think with the newest the Netflix Pokemon, because Pokemon is on Netflix now. I forget what they're calling the sword and shield show. It's like the Ash reboot. I don't really know, but we're like a week behind Japan. I think there's like maybe one week difference, two weeks difference. So like they're pumping it out pretty quickly.

01:26:43
Sam
It's pretty know.

01:26:46
Matty
So much is done digitally. It's just, it's just wild. Thank you all for enduring this with me. I appreciate it. Of course.

01:26:53
Case
I'm so glad to have you on and to chat about this one. It is definitely a strong work of nostalgia that infamously was not the strongest part of that franchise. It gets tied in so much with the show and with the games that way overshadow it, but everyone remembers it because it's the first movie to come out in the US or in general. Like I said, I didn't watch it and I was like, yeah, it's mewtwo. He's a clone and he thinks he's superior to all the other ones, and he forces them to fight because he's bad. All the major story beats are remembered from marketing material.

01:27:26
Sam
He's misunderstood.

01:27:29
Case
Well, yes, I'm keeping up, but that's what I mean, because it's both trophy and also they were very explicit with the material, and it's very simple. It didn't require a lot of understanding. Everyone who didn't see the movie still had a basic idea of how it plays out. So it's really just a matter of kind of refining it and crafting it a little bit tighter to make it the very best, like no one ever was. But, Maddie, you've got a lot of Pokemon stuff going on, so why don't.

01:28:03
Matty
You talk a little bit about that?

01:28:04
Sam
Tell us.

01:28:05
Matty
So we've been doing a big crossover here on certain point of view, as well as we've had some friends from Geek Elite and other podcast networks. So what's already come out? I believe it's everything except fun and games with Matt and Jeff. At this point, we are wibbly wobbly, timey whimy. So go check out Saturday morning confidential. I had an episode with Bitsy and Daniel from geekily Matt Stormageddon, where we talk about the first 1520 episodes of the Pokemon anime and just kind of how it stacks up because early on in the show, it still lined up with the game in a way. Like case said, you could watch the show and figure out things about the game.

01:28:45
Matty
That same day, I have chatted Pokemon 2000 with our friends over at let's rewatch, and I cannot wait for you all to hear Bret and I scream about that. I then sat down with Erica Schroeder, who is a good friend of mine, and she took over as nurse Joy. And she's Eevee. She's so many of the Pokemon. She's an icon. I love her. And so that's on Saturday morning confidential as well on our serial killer radio hour. We're doing this with you all, and then I believe it comes out.

01:29:23
Matty
Tomorrow is fun and games with Matt and Jeff, where I sit down and chat with Matt and Jeff kind of about the idea of the franchise as a whole and kind of the monolith that this has been and kind of what it means for the people that stopped playing with the original ones or those of us that are like, okay, just give me my 3d rerendering of the original game, please. Or keep playing. Or that I still play sword and shield and I didn't love it, but it's not for me necessarily. But I still love that pokemon is around. Pokemon means the world to me. It's really special. And so I'm just really excited that we've been able to do this. So check all those out on certainpov.com. Go to our discord scream about Pokemon with us. And, yeah, so that's that.

01:30:08
Matty
And then also just make sure you're subscribed to all the amazing shows on certain point of view, as well as our new show, Saturday morning Confidential, which releases every other Friday.

01:30:18
Case
And Maddie, if they want to find you on social media, where can they find.

01:30:21
Matty
Oh, so when we rebranded, I was able to kind of get it together, which is awesome. So if you go to our Instagram, which is smcpod, we have a link tree to everything. We're smc pod on Facebook, on Instagram, and on Twitter. We are still dolewhip podcast. Unfortunately, I'm battling with Twitter to get us rebranded currently. And so that's where all of those are. But our link tree is going to give you where we are. We're across all your favorite podcast platforms. I'm working on getting old episodes transcribed to captions for our heart of hearing friends. And so, yeah, so if you go to our Instagram, which is smcpod, or if you just type in Saturday morning confidential on Instagram, it will pop up. We are on Facebook as well, Twitter. And yeah, we exist on the Internet, so come find us.

01:31:15
Case
Awesome. Sam, this was your first episode as co host, but. So if people want to find you on social media, where are you?

01:31:22
Sam
I'm a ghost on social media. I mean, I exist there, and case will probably tag me on stuff, but don't find me. Just find case.

01:31:33
Matty
Just find case.

01:31:34
Sam
Or maybe that can be the mystery. Maybe they find case and then eventually find me, because I'm sure he's tagged me.

01:31:40
Case
That's true. I have tagged you on stuff, but it's always like, I have to look it up because it doesn't show up very. You've made yourself, like, a deliberately elusive, like a mew, if you will.

01:31:50
Sam
I am the elusive mew of the social media world. None of my social media accounts are linked. I have different names for all of them, and most of them are on private it.

01:32:07
Case
So never mind. Don't find Sam online.

01:32:10
Sam
I may be instinct somewhere in the world, but I might pop up just like a.

01:32:19
Case
You don't if you. If you can't find Sam, but you still want to interact with her. We are on Twitter at another pass. I am on Twitter at case aiken. You can also, find me on Instagram at ketzlecoattle five because I am a nerd. But if all there, yeah, all the stuff we're doing, however, is@certainpov.com we've got crossovers that we're doing with other networks, thanks to Maddie here, but other ones we've done before. We've got lots of new shows that just joined the network recently, such as cpov autographs, such as Panelology and such as comics, quest, all fun stuff. Check all that stuff out. You can find out more information on our discord, for example, where you can actually come interact with us or@certainpov.com Sam, why don't you tell everyone what we're doing next time?

01:33:08
Sam
What do we have next? Well, boys and girls and other people. Next time on this show, we'll be talking about Highlander two, the quickening. But until then, if you enjoyed the show, pass it on.

01:33:24
Case
Thanks for listening to certain point of View's another past podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com. Hey, nerf herders. And I was like, viewfinders? And I'm like, no, I don't really.

01:34:00
Sam
Mew mew mew mew mew mew mew mew. Pika, pika. That should just be. That's what you should do. My favorite thing about Bulbasaur is when he just kind of says, sir, like, not related to anything. And that's like a comment, and you're like, yeah, feel that.

01:34:33
Case
Feel that mood.

01:34:35
Matty
Mood just, sir, it's like when your stoner buddy in the corner says, like, one or two words and everybody just, yeah, man.

01:34:44
Sam
Yeah, he definitely had that moment in this movie. Pika felt it and squirtle felt it. And then SaR finished that off. He was like, yeah, he got it.

01:35:06
Matty
Nostalgia is one of the strongest forces in the human psyche and is responsible for the continued existence of some of our favorite fandoms. From the minds behind the Dolphin Dreams podcast and isolation cast voices from quarantine, Saturday morning confidential takes you on a deep dive into the properties that helped influence the artists and creators of today. So whether you are a goonie, a gym girl, a digi, destined, or you just want to return to Oz, new episodes release on Fridays biweekly starting January 1 of 2021, and join us on the Wednesdays after the main show for the serial killer radio hour, where we sit down with the people responsible for the toys shows and fandoms that you love. Now you can find Saturday morning confidential@certainpov.com, Smcpod or on your favorite podcast platforms.

01:36:01
Matty
So don't forget to tune in for another deep dive into the files of Saturday morning confidential.

01:36:14
Case
See pov certainpov.com. Close.