Animation enthusiast Sam Willson joins Case and Sam (Alicea) to talk about just how good How To Train Your Dragon is and how it almost wasn't!

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Transcript

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00:00
Sam Willson
They both have parallel storylines throughout the whole film. And that really comes to a head in that scene. Right? Like, dragons have been hurt by the Vikings. Vikings have been hurt by the dragons. And now both hiccup and toothless are coming together and having to trust the enemy where they have both been hurting each other, but they're both different.

00:25
Case Aiken
Welcome to certain point of views, another pass podcast. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another pass podcast. I am case Aiken, and as always, I am joined by my co host, Sam Alicea.

00:44
Sam Willson
Hello.

00:45
Case Aiken
And joining us today is someone who. This will not be at all confusing. I've got Sam Wilson.

00:51
Sam Willson
Hello. I wish I had a different nickname to go by, but I don't.

00:57
Case Aiken
Yeah, no, it's totally fine. The problem is, I mentally can't call one of you Samantha. Like, you're both just Sam.

01:03
Sam Alicea
That's true. And I've always preferred. I've only met one Samantha that preferred being called Samantha. Like, in my entire lifetime, I only met one girl who was like, no, don't call me Sam. I'm Samantha. I was, like, weird.

01:16
Sam Willson
That was pre middle school me. And then I made friends with this really awesome, tough mexican chick, and I was too scared to tell her that I didn't like.

01:28
Case Aiken
Then you just learned to like.

01:30
Sam Willson
Yeah. And then I'm like, I am Sam. Okay, this fits.

01:34
Sam Alicea
I've accepted this.

01:37
Case Aiken
Well, you know, it's funny that you tell that particular anecdote because today we are talking about a movie that is all about thinking that you like things one way and then discovering a higher truth and maybe finding your true self. And, I don't know, I'm trying to connect this. Today we're talking about how to train your dragon.

01:55
Sam Willson
Yeah. I'm so excited to talk about this movie. It is very near and dear to my heart.

02:01
Sam Alicea
I love this movie. I love it.

02:04
Sam Willson
It's so good. It's so cute.

02:07
Case Aiken
Yeah. And so today, this is episode 105. This is a fifth episode, which, for people just joining in every five episodes, we talk about a movie that did the course correct that we normally speculate about. So we talk about movies that either found themselves in the editing, like Star wars, or movies that had dramatic rewrites, which is the case here. How to train your dragon is based on a book series conceptually, but they, after going off of the initial script, that know, heavily based on that, veered wildly away to make what is ultimately a really good movie. And I had no idea until Sam, you mentioned that in an episode of let's Rewatch. And I was, huh, how about that?

02:45
Sam Willson
Yeah, it's kind of a weird circumstance. So when this movie was coming out, a lot of the studio execs didn't pay much attention to it. They kind of just like, okay, it'll be fine. And we're not going to advertise it. We're not going to play it up. Which, if you follow let's rewatch, I will frequently tell you, is a really good cocktail to make a good movie. When your executives and all your overhead people don't noodle, you tend to get better results. So, yeah, there wasn't a lot of advertising about this movie beforehand, which I think helped it kind of fly under the radar and turn out so good.

03:30
Case Aiken
Yeah. And I mean, you see that in movies like the big ones, like the Lion King, for example, is like a great example where they kind of were allowed to go. But it's even crazier than that because you shared with us a documentary that kind of broke it all down and it's released as part of the production. Jeffrey Katzenberg is on it. There's definitely some. Before that was put together in any way, there were a lot of releases and a lot of people got some approval.

03:57
Sam Willson
Oh, yeah. There's a lot of little shots in the documentary where I'm like, oh, I see why that shot's in there. It's because Bill Damaski's office had to ok this and they wanted to make sure it looked like he was a part of the.

04:17
Case Aiken
Like, I just, I didn't know about that because I remember doing fairly well and I was convinced, actually, that I had seen this movie, but I realized I didn't. The funny thing is, I remember the time I went to go see it and I knew that I didn't see it then. And I just assumed at some point I caught it on video because I had a good enough kind of recollection based on the pop culture and commercials and so forth. And then when sequels came out, I'm like, okay, cool. I follow roughly what happened in the first one based on information of the status quo of the sequels. And then I started watching it. And actually, the funny thing was the second I heard the voice of hiccup.

04:57
Sam Willson
Yeah.

04:58
Case Aiken
And I realized it was Jay Baruchell, I was immediately like, oh, I didn't see this movie because the reason why I didn't see it in theaters was that it was sold out. And instead my partner and I went to go see she's out of my league. Which was headlined by.

05:14
Sam Willson
How funny?

05:15
Case Aiken
Which was like a fine Apatow comedy. It is never discussed because it was just like, I assume fine now. It's also been long enough that we could do like a less rewatch on that. Why would we? Yeah, but as soon as I realized that, I was like, oh, yeah, I definitely didn't see this movie before because I did not know that part. And that's always been like, the thing that I remembered about this movie was not being able to see it.

05:40
Sam Willson
Interesting. That's so funny.

05:43
Sam Alicea
I definitely saw this in theaters right away because anything dragons, I am there. So even though I didn't really know too much about it, because like you said advertisement was almost nonexistent, right? And I love animated films. So I was just like, dragons, animated films? That dragon looks like my dog at the time. I was like, I am in. I am in. And I loved it. I cried like a baby in theaters. My friend was sitting next to me and she's like, are you okay? And I was like, so beautiful.

06:21
Sam Willson
Is.

06:21
Sam Alicea
They'Re like together and they both are different from everyone else, but it's celebrating their differences and it's like not putting them down for having a disability. And she was like, okay, I'm going to buy you ice cream. She was just like, I feel like you had the cathartic moment that a seven year old would have had, but you had it now as an adult. And I was like, yeah, that's par for the course of going to movies with me.

06:54
Sam Willson
Fun fact. Or like a nine month pregnant woman, because that was my experience rewatching this movie.

07:03
Sam Alicea
I mean, honestly, even as I watched the documentary, I told case that even watching the documentary, I teared up again. And I was like, oh my God. And I watched it twice and once was at my desk at work. And so I was trying to hide my tears, like, at work, just be like, I am not crying now to the thing I was listening to while I was typing things, I promise.

07:31
Sam Willson
And I think that's a really good testament to how laser focused the filmmakers were on kind of their thesis and heart of the film. And in the documentary, they talk a lot about course correcting and staying focused on it being a father son story, which it really is. There's a lot of subplot layers. Like Hiccup has to deal with an identity crisis where his identity is so polar opposite to that of his entire family and community. And he tries really hard to kind of fit into that and just struggles to gain his dad's love, which is like something we all can kind of relate to. There's always somebody that we love and want their approval, and we try really hard to get that. So it hits so well even years later.

08:36
Sam Willson
And even as an adult, it's relatable to kids and to adults, which makes it work so beautifully.

08:44
Sam Alicea
Yeah. Especially because there is also, I think, just for parents, I'm not a parent, full disclosure, but I think there is this idea of expectations for your child.

08:56
Sam Willson
Right.

08:56
Sam Alicea
Their hopes and dreams. And so the big conflict here is that hiccup does not live up to those dreams and expectations that his dad had. And it's his dad also learning how to kind of be, oh, wait, what you are now is good, or maybe even better than what my expectations were. There's a lesson for both of them. There's development for both characters. And I think it's really beautiful that the conflict between them isn't resolved just by one of them kind of having growth. It's both of them that has this growth to kind of realize an understanding between each other. And you can see in the documentary how they really thought that out.

09:43
Sam Alicea
Like, they really were like, oh, no, we need an actual tension and then we need to figure out how to resolve that tension in a proper way that tells a real story between father and son.

09:52
Sam Willson
Absolutely.

09:53
Case Aiken
Yeah. Well, and they reinforce it. It's not just that they both grow. It's also that they both reflect on their individual growth. Like, hiccup, in particular, consistently thinks of himself as being weird and being different and not living up to everyone's expectations. And then it's pointed out that he's the first one to ever fly a dragon.

10:12
Sam Willson
Yeah.

10:12
Case Aiken
And he never thought about his own growth.

10:16
Sam Willson
Totally. That is such a beautiful, subtle little scene. Hiccup is so alienated. His dad is gone, his best friend dragon is gone. The whole town is gone, possibly. Well, he knows to their death because he knows the danger that they're going to face. And he's feeling really defeated. And it's so interesting that they chose kind of his nemesis to bring that up. Yes, he has a crush on Astrid, but also they don't really get along throughout the film until later. So I really liked that they had her point out his success. And it's a really cool character moment for her as well because we know she wants desperately to be as successful as hiccup. We know she wants to be that good and take over dragons like he has.

11:13
Sam Willson
So it's just like a really profound adult moment for a kid to acknowledge somebody else's success when it's what you want the most. And I really liked how they set that up. It was really well done.

11:26
Sam Alicea
It's very mature.

11:29
Case Aiken
Not being petty, it's amazing to think that they didn't think this movie was going to do well. Like looking back at the zeitgeist of the time. The next year, Skyrim came out. And that's a huge property in terms of the same exact shit. This clearly was hitting at just the right moment and maybe this helped spark it a little bit too. But fantasy has been going very strong since Lord of the Rings came out. So people were definitely here for that. This is a little bit before were getting the hobit movies, so were getting dragon ideas were just kind of out there. People were down for it all. And to this date, it's made a billion dollars.

12:10
Sam Alicea
Has it really?

12:11
Sam Willson
I didn't know that. Yeah.

12:14
Case Aiken
So when it came out, you could argue that it wasn't the success because it was the fifth highest grossing animated movie of that year of 2010. But when you look at what that slate was, it's not hard. Like Toy Story three, Shrek forever tangled, despicable me were the four animated movies that beat it.

12:35
Sam Willson
Yeah. And I mean, it cried to at.

12:38
Sam Alicea
Least two of those. Go on. I'll let the audience guess which ones.

12:44
Sam Willson
I also bald at Toy Story because it came out either on my birthday or the day before. And so that was what I did for my birthday, was go and see it and bald.

12:56
Sam Alicea
But that movie was particularly brutal with, like, it's ending. No, it's not. It's ending. No, it's not. They really wanted to make you cry. They were trying.

13:07
Sam Willson
Oh, yeah, they were working it hard and succeeding. But from a DreamWorks studio perspective, everyone was worried about, like, Shrek had been the big property, the big franchise. So it fits that narrative that we talked about with Lion King and Pocahontas. It's so funny. There's always a big movie to distract the studio and then these sleeper films come in where the creatives or the management on the film just really get the freedom to kind of build the culture that they want. And it has an insane effect on the outcome of the film. It's almost like writing a paper. You know how they teach you? You have your thesis and then everything that you say later in your paper has to come back and back that up and just time and time again.

14:10
Sam Willson
From the documentary, from everyone that I talked to that's worked with these two directors, they say that's what they do. They give every artist, every person touching the film, that freedom to interpret thesis, the heart of the film, and back it up with their own artistic touch. So in the documentary, we saw that they have that cute little scene when they're recording Gerard Butler playing the dad and he does the odin. It was like, it sounds so, like, passe, like it's just a throwaway line. But no, it really strengthens and deepens his character. He wants hiccup to succeed. He doesn't just want him to do things for his own good. He wants his son to be happy and fulfilled and successful at kind of thinking forward for a time without him.

15:08
Sam Willson
So it really gives this background to his character that he has kind of been religiously struggling with how to help his son. And that really makes you feel for him as a dad character. He maybe isn't the most understanding, but he's trying, he's willful. So that really backs up that father son story, right.

15:32
Sam Alicea
And he's doing the best that he can in the world that he knows. Right. So hiccup is going to introduce a new world, but by the old world standards, he's praying that his son can survive. Dragons come and attack us, and this kid is, like, hopeless. I don't know what I'm going to do with him. What happens when I'm not here to be big and burly and scare the dragons away? This kid's dead. This whole town is going to abandon him. Crap. I really feel for the dad, actually, on some level.

16:12
Case Aiken
Yeah, well, and the fun part about that is that specific line they were going to cut, it was in the earlier drafts, and then when he comes in, he sees the script and it's been edited, it's been removed. And he actually had worked out a real deep understanding for the line that was going to inform the character the way that he saw, made a lot of sense and explained it all. And they're like, yeah, he really sold it because they trusted him to have a take as an actor in a way that you kind of have to in a live action thing, but in animation thing, you could see a director really being like, no, we have to stick to the script. And there's no ability for him to improv because it would just get cut.

16:55
Case Aiken
And it was really impressive that they were willing to work on that. They brought in actors to work for improvisational bits. They trusted actors to do deliveries and then kind of molded scenes around that in a way that they wouldn't have been able to if you had all the actors in separate locations doing just their lines. Really impressive that they wanted to work with people from the actors all the way through. It's what you were saying, sam Wilson, that they trusted people once they explained what they wanted to accomplish and allowed everyone to kind of contribute, really.

17:35
Sam Alicea
I mean, one of the things I love that in the documentary, they said was that there was a whole discussion about this end scene, right? And should hiccup die or should they pull back the punch? And one of the animators made a joke that they should, like, hiccup should lose an arm or a leg, and it was like a throwaway, like, maybe. And they were like, actually. And I thought that it was really great because you're in a room where people are listening. And even for things that people are not actually serious about, like seriously pitching, they were like, actually. That's a nice balance between traumatizing children and actually having a real consequence for this action. Right. A real cost to this violence and that kind of thing. I was like, oh, this is a really cool team.

18:25
Sam Alicea
It was actually a really cool fact because I never even thought about it. Why did they choose a leg?

18:32
Sam Willson
I had completely forgotten about that part of the ending. And you're so right. It's so beautifully written. It just brings the story full circle. It's kind of like a weird metaphorical eye for an eye. He takes down toothless and injures toothless, essentially, in the same way. And at the end of the film, by trying to save toothless, is injured in the same way. And it gives hiccup and toothless some more commonality, some more common ground, and just a deeper understanding of each other. And they really drive that point home with how they set up that scene. And they did some really interesting filmmaking decisions there. One, there's very little dialogue, if any at all. It's all driven by characters and by the animation, which is really fun to see.

19:41
Sam Willson
And two, the only person there with him, or the only being there with him is hiccup, the only one that truly understands what he's going through. So it is symbolic of their relationship, of each other, but also it's literally deepening their relationship as he discovers he's missing a limb with toothless there. So well done.

20:07
Case Aiken
Yeah, it's a great scene, and it clearly resonated with people in the documentary you shared. They show some of the test screenings, and people are so committed to that scene, and they weren't sure if they were going to keep it because it's so dark. And also, it was done in a way that could be easily removed if it was too dark.

20:27
Sam Willson
Yeah. And you see actual footage from the test audience, and the moderator asks, who would be disappointed if this wasn't the ending? And you see the whole theater's hands shoot up. It just is a testament to how successful they were at driving sort of their intentions home and really allowing them to hit and land with audiences.

20:53
Sam Alicea
I loved that when I was watching the documentary, it actually made me tear up because it was like, yes, because if I were in that testing, I'd be like, you have to keep that. It was such a great decision, honestly. And even having toothless be there for him, that intimate moment between them, also, again, cementing the bond between them as he woke up. Just lovely ending, just lovely writing.

21:26
Sam Willson
Another thing that they did so well in this film. And it's something that director Chris Sanders has spoken out about a lot, which is leaving space in your film for the score to carry the weight and the emotion of your scenes, which, if you think about this film, there are at least three major scenes that are carried solely by the music and the acting. And that's part of the reason why I think it works so beautifully. Words are cool and effective, but words have a lot of connotation. So when you have a scene without dialogue, it leaves so much up for interpretation to your viewer. And really, it's like reading a book. It allows them to kind of add their own character thoughts and their own interpretation on the scene and really connect deeper with that plot. And it works so well.

22:37
Sam Willson
It's so good in this movie.

22:39
Sam Alicea
Agreed. I think also, it's just the bravery, kind of the courage to let the medium be all that the medium can be, right. Like, use all the different parts of it, rather than try to kind of pigeonhole one thing in just lots of jokes and just kind of like, that room to breathe makes it really lovely. But then using all part, because it's a visual audio medium. Like, it's everything. So let it be visual, let it be audio. Maybe don't clutter it with too much. So I think that it's really lovely, the pacing of this film, too. And just like, how they kind of let it develop the way there's moments of great action and then there's moments of just calm and letting it breathe.

23:29
Sam Alicea
And I even think the development scene, which is of the friendship and the trust between hiccup and his lovely best friend forever, is really beautiful, right? Just watching this creature who is afraid and wary and injured, kind of learn to trust something that is his enemy. And this boy who's just like, well, I don't know. It's hurt, so maybe I should help it. Watch them kind of learn to trust each other. And that is not a lot of conversation. There is some conversation, but it's a lot of music. It's a lot of. Just movement. It's a lot of. Just, like, body language. It's really beautiful.

24:21
Sam Willson
Yeah. So that sequence is called the forbidden friendship sequence, and you're totally right. It's so beautifully done. And as you were talking, it reminded me that they both have parallel storylines throughout the whole film, and that really comes to a head in that scene. Right. Like, dragons have been hurt by the Vikings have been hurt by the dragons, and now both hiccup and toothless are coming together and having to trust the enemy where they have both been hurting each other, but they're both different. Nobody's ever seen a night fury. It always kills. Right. It doesn't just steal sheep and go away. And hiccup, he's the Viking that can't kill. He's different. Yeah. And they just allow kind of the character's actions to speak for themselves, which really allows the scene to carry emotional weight.

25:21
Sam Willson
And for you to see them build that unspoken trust and friendship, it's so well done.

25:30
Case Aiken
Yeah. I mean, to say that this movie has a thesis would be the value of collaboration, the value of putting aside your own bullshit, like realizing that nothing is sacred, nothing is precious, and accepting the input and the help of someone else, because you can see that both in the actual script as well as in the production of it. And that's a thing that they try to drive home. In the documentary you shared, both toothless and hiccup aren't functional. When they come together. Like, toothless is wounded and is not able to fly and is trapped inside of a little pit, and Hiccup is not able to really function in his society. He's about to get thrown into dragon training where he's definitely going to die. That's just going to happen.

26:19
Case Aiken
And it's through the two of them together that they are able to first escape that in the scenario with Hiccup, he learns enough about dragons that he's able to survive inside dragon training, and then with toothless being able to actually escape and fly and be free and so forth, although there are limitations on both, they need each other for it all. And then you can see with the production itself, it's the same basic deal. So Sanderson de Block came in super late into production with a script that was highly different from what they ultimately got to and had to make the decision to work with people. And that's the thing they keep on bringing up. And that was emphasized even, or at least again, it's a documentary that was put out in association with this.

27:05
Case Aiken
So what are we going to say about this one? But even the deep frenemy of a certain pod on this network, Jeffrey Katzenberg was emphasizing accepting other ideas, accepting other people's ideas. Like, the spot that really surprised me was that he had a particular take about how he wanted to end a scene with tears and that it was going to be sad, sad, and he thought that was going to really sell the moment. And then someone comes in with sort of like, sure, it starts off sad, but then there's actually this happy revelation. It was when he goes out and he sees that the other dragons are there, right? There's all this excitement because it starts off being sad about losing his leg, and then it's like, oh, the world has actually started to change for the better.

27:47
Case Aiken
And Katzenberg just sits back and be like, this is a great idea. And in fact, your idea, which accomplishes the same emotional beat that I was hoping, also allows for a sequel and immediately pivots and sees the strength and, frankly, the financial benefits that are going to come from that. But that's kind of his fucking job.

28:08
Sam Willson
If he didn't. He's not a filmmaker, he's a businessman, right?

28:14
Case Aiken
But he's actually being like, oh, yeah, what you're saying sells the story better. And if we sell the story better, we make more money, which is like, what he's supposed to be doing in this.

28:27
Sam Willson
Mean, the executives don't always get it right, but they are there for a reason. And kind of the best summary that I have heard of Jeffrey and his influence on films is that his strength is being able to identify a problem or weakness in the story. So he can watch something and be like, there's something weird here. But his weakness, where he really lacks is with coming up with a solution. So I've heard in his Disney days, he'd be like, well, this part of this film is not working. What if you did this and his idea was always be crazy and not good, but it would help kind of flag that area for his animators and know storyboard artists be what is. Well, what is Jeffrey actually responding to? Oh, it's this.

29:21
Sam Willson
What if we changed this part of the story and it's almost always for the better, which is so.

29:28
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

29:29
Sam Willson
And he doesn't feel, like, attached to his ideas either, which is a big benefit.

29:35
Case Aiken
Right? Exactly. Like, there's a bunch of spots in here when I forget the name of the composer who was scoring.

29:41
Sam Willson
Powell, John Powell.

29:42
Case Aiken
He at one point is, like, offering to, I think it's actually for, again, the leg sequence that they kind of, like, focus on. But he wants to basically play a more stripped down version of a score that he had worked on to sell this idea. And everyone were like, oh, no, it should be silent. Like, well, what about this? And then it's like, no, that sells it really well. Oh, my God. Everyone involved is very open to everyone's ideas. And that's kind of the amazing part about this, because it's very easy to picture things that are like, here's an auteur vision, here's this crafted idea.

30:18
Case Aiken
And that could really happen with someone coming on an adaptation where they're like, oh, I want to take all the things I like about the book and make it the most pure representation and understanding that doesn't work, that they take the good from the book and they don't take the bad. So you don't get the facts of life and you continue on and you make a new product and you sell new. Like, you find the things that are important and get all these people together to work on it. And that's just kind of amazing.

30:46
Sam Willson
Yeah, it's one thing that I really love about animation is, like, when you're working in it and you have a really strong team where everyone's goal is the same, you get this sort of magic, collaborative experience. And that was definitely the case with how to train your dragon. Everyone wanted to make the best father son story that they could, and everyone was working towards that goal, and it really created such a strong, beautiful film. And you see it in every little detail of the film, down to the effects. Like they mentioned, where the effects artist really drove home that point and added extra fire. And in the score, where the composer really understood the weight and understood the goal of the scenes and used their creative talent to back up what the directors wanted.

31:49
Sam Alicea
Yeah, I think one of the things that they say all the time in the documentary, or they repeated a few times as they were going through script revisions and things like, oh, good, we're still all making the same movie. That was something that was said very often that feeds right into that point. They kept saying, like, okay, so we got the notes back, and the best part about it is, yes, there's things to work about, but we're all still making the same movie, so everyone was still on the same page, so they knew that they were still making the right progress.

32:21
Sam Willson
It's funny, it sounds like, so silly, but the way animation is structured is you have so many different departments, so many different individualized teams that it can very easily veer off track. And you can have people making two different films at the same time.

32:42
Case Aiken
I thought this was a dramedy. No, it's a horror movie.

32:45
Sam Willson
You'd be amazed at how often it can happen. It's funny. It is an important thing, and, like, a relief as a filmmaker working at a big studio environment to be like, okay, great. I'm so glad the team is working together on this. And I told case, but I don't know if Sam knows. I interviewed one of my good friends where we worked on how to train your dragon two together. So she was just talking and kind of reiterating about how good of a job Dean did at allowing his artists to kind of take some creative liberties as long as they were driving home that point of the film.

33:33
Sam Willson
So I know it's a different movie, but she was animator on the second one, and she just talked about how they just wanted everything that she animated to kind of back up these characters and back up the believability. Because her job was to make something that literally shouldn't be possible. Possible like the grungle. I think that's how you pronounce it. The little fat Bumblebee dragon. Oh, yeah, that shouldn't fly. It shouldn't.

34:07
Sam Alicea
Fair.

34:07
Case Aiken
Yeah, well, neither should the bumblebee.

34:09
Sam Willson
It's true. They had them look up reference of bumblebees and really sell that and sell that believability. And she got a really fun scene of hiccup and toothless playing in the snow. And she had a really fun idea to kind of make it a character moment where they're playing. And she brought it up to Dean and she was like, yeah, that's going to strengthen our film. Go for it. So what was just this quick throwaway scene? She was able to give her input and have it be an actual character moment in the film. And it's so nice to know that kind of attitude carried over from the first film into the second film. Absolutely.

34:52
Case Aiken
Yeah. Because the first one, they came in well into production and totally redid it. But this movie wouldn't have been made in an earlier era of animation. My understanding is most of the models were made. In some cases, they shifted out. Toothless was supposed to be like a little guy, and you can see, from the concept sketches that they show, it's like, whatever. The tiny one, not the grunkle, because the grunkle is still pretty big. It's just, like, odly shaped, but there's, like, a little, like.

35:22
Sam Alicea
Yeah, they describe it as, like a garden dragon in the book.

35:27
Case Aiken
Right. So when they decided to change it, like, yeah, sure. We just switch out which model is here, and it's kind of fascinating in a westworld kind of sense of like, well, here's the body that's going to act out the scenes. What's the appropriate one? Oh, we have this other viking. Oh, that looks better. Switching out all of that and then pairing it to the voices. Sam, could you actually talk a little bit about some of that? Because I'm fascinated. But for me, this feels like machinima, where you take video game assets and act out a scene and then add your own voices and music cues on it. But for one, you have way more freedom because you're still creating the thing. But also, like, it's got to be way more complicated than that.

36:09
Sam Willson
Yeah.

36:09
Sam Alicea
Isn't there, like, a whole post with they show scenes from Disney where Mowgli is doing the same thing as Winnie the Pooh? I feel like it's along that same line, too.

36:20
Sam Willson
So that's very different. So that would be like 2d animation. A case shared that, actually. That was super fun. So they would do something called rotoscoping in the old 2d days. They still do it now. It's a little different, though, where they'd kind of copy the movement, because at Disney, they had an archive of all of the old scenes. And as a 2d animator, you could go check it out like a library. So these people would go check out these old scenes and then draw their character over on a new sheet of paper with the same movement. And it was during kind of the dark Disney days before they turned things around with the little Mermaid. And the executives were just, like, scrambling to do anything that would make them successful. And they're like those old films. They were successful.

37:12
Sam Willson
Like, you're not going to make this film successful unless you copy the animation of the nine old men. And so these poor animators were, oh, fine, I'll go check out the scene and roto. It's a really frustrating time for those artists.

37:26
Case Aiken
Well, and also, they thought it'd be cheaper, which it really wasn't. Like Robin Hood, for example. There's all these shots that are taken from other movies, and then the actual budget was still fairly close to what a normal Disney movie was. Running at the.

37:37
Sam Willson
Yeah, yeah. It's not cheaper, but whatever. What do executives. So in the case of EG and in the case of DreamWorks, they build all of their assets internally. Depending on how deep you want me to go. I can go deep, but I'll try to keep it.

37:57
Case Aiken
How deep do you want to go? Because I enjoy you nerding out about a thing, but I don't mean to cause you to have to dig in the archives of your.

38:04
Sam Willson
Oh, no, it's totally fine for me. I'll dig deep. So in a CG animation pipeline, you start with usually some sort of rough script, which we saw was the case for this one. And unlike a live action film, you don't finalize your story and the script part, you move it on to storyboarding, which live action does have, but it's usually less fluid. So animation, they really iron out their story in the storyboarding phase. And this isn't kind of like a one and done sort of deal. There's a lot of back and forth between these different departments. So storyboarding will happen almost all the way, like, halfway through, depending on the film and the story and where it's at. And a lot of times, if the ending isn't working, they'll be boarding up until the end, which is just kind of a crazy concept.

39:06
Sam Willson
So I'm sure. And we saw scenes of Tron May, the head storyboard artist, like, pulling an all nighter with Dubois and, you know, before the big screening, like restoryboarding these scenes. And that's very.

39:25
Case Aiken
Yeah.

39:26
Sam Willson
Sorry, I'm having contractions. A little hard to breathe. Don't worry, I'm not going into labor. It's not that type.

39:36
Case Aiken
That would be, like, the ultimate button.

39:39
Sam Alicea
We have to end. Tune in for a few months later when she finishes this explanation. And there's a baby, we'll know the baby's name, too. Congratulations. Tune into another path. No. How to train your dragon. Point two.

39:57
Sam Willson
Two. Point zero. So more on the pipeline. So you have the storyboarding phase. When something clears through that, then it goes to layout, which is where they plan it out in the 3d program simultaneously while storyboarding is happening. You're also doing character design and some rough modeling. So you'll take those assets into this layout phase, where you're kind of planning the film, planning the cameras, and then this phase is really valuable for producers for helping with the budget and kind of planning assets. And then the scenes kind of just keep moving farther along in progression, all at different phases until the whole film is complete. So from layout there. Then that goes to the animator, and then the animator will have these final, ideally final models, but they can update them in between, where literally there's no movement on these things.

40:56
Sam Willson
They're like puppets, and they have to actually move them and move their joints and make them do what they want them to do. And dreamworks actually built their own animation software. So it was all proprietary. And not for how to train your dragon one, but for how to train your dragon two. I think it was, like, one of the first films that got to use a brand new animation software. So the whole time, the studio has a team of software developers who are trying to improve their programs to give their artists the best freedom. So the second batch of people got to use this really fancy new animation software, and they were all very happy. It was way easier to use. Yeah. Do you want me to keep going? Is it boring or is it interesting?

41:51
Case Aiken
Sure.

41:51
Sam Alicea
Okay. I just don't want to, like, I'm nodding, but I don't want to be like, yeah, and miss anything. Just in case.

42:03
Sam Willson
I have no point of reference. I'm like, this is very interesting to me and my animation people, but I don't know what outside people. Yeah. After it's animated, it will get approved. Everything has to go through rounds of approval. Oh, and fun fact, animator will animate all of the characters in their scene. So the way Disney used to do it was like, there was the lead animator on Mrs. Potts, and this animator animated Mrs. Potts. Whether Mrs. Potts was in a scene with Belle or in a scene with the know, it was that animator in cg. The way Dreamer X handled it is you got this scene and you animated everyone in the scene. So that means those poor animators that had the scenes of the whole horde of dragons flying. Oh, no, they'd animate all the dragons. Like all 50.

42:58
Sam Willson
It was just fun.

42:59
Sam Alicea
50 puppets going at once.

43:01
Sam Willson
Yes, exactly. And so there's a lot of balance that goes into it, like directing the eye, and you don't want any of the movement to be sinking. You want it to feel natural. So that gets really tricky with wing motions. They're a cycle of wings flapping. But you don't just go in on scene one and start all your dragons at the first position, because then they'd all be flying in sync and they would look really dumb.

43:30
Case Aiken
Not unless this is ballet.

43:31
Sam Willson
Yeah, exactly.

43:32
Sam Alicea
Then it gets a little synchronized flying scene where they were doing kind of like what those women used to do in pools in the 1960s. All of those swimming movies. What was that about? Hollywood? What was that about? Go on.

43:49
Sam Willson
Nobody knows. There's a lot of planning that goes into it with the animators. And then once that phase is approved, then it starts to go through lighting, which is where it starts to look real. And texturing. Texturing is a big thing too. So you have these kind of really specialized 3d artists that start to add life to the film and to the characters after the animation is built. And that's where there's a lot of technical stuff that they have to solve that. I don't know how they do it. If a character is wearing a dress, it has to interact with the legs, but not go through the legs. And it seems logical to us, like we understand physics, but to a computer they're just lines. So it's a really interesting process.

44:47
Case Aiken
The computer is like, my robot brain doesn't understand why these dots need to move because of other.

44:52
Sam Willson
If you, If you ever had the Shrek DVD, there was a really cute little extra on the dvd of outtakes, and it was all of the misrenders from Shrek. And as a kid, it was hilarious. And as an adult, it's really fascinating because you're, oh, like, holy moly. You don't understand how the computer would just misinterpret what you want it to know. There's a scene with Fiona and she turns around and her dress just goes right through her legs. Or there's a scene where they got the location wrong and her skirt is walking, like, three steps behind her. So all of these artists that come after animation are fixing these issues. So they're making sure the characters clothes are on them and they're interacting correctly, making sure that the cloth has cloth texture, the hair has hair texture.

45:53
Sam Willson
And then the lighting team comes in and adds lighting to it. So we got a ton of natural, really complex lighting in this film.

46:04
Case Aiken
Oh, yeah. Especially with all the fire breath. I kept noticing, like, oh, man, their light sources are amazing. And it would be, like, mind boggling to do this with, like, hand drawn.

46:14
Sam Willson
Yeah. Oh, it would be almost impossible. I mean, it's doable. Anything's doable. But not everyone has the laser focus of Williams, but, and it's funny because in this film, they brought in Roger Deakins. So he's a live action cinematographer who's done a ton of big stuff to consult. So he consulted on how to get the right mood through lighting, which is a final stage in the animation process. So these filmmakers were thinking about how to back up their story point, even in lighting, even in these final stages. So the directors really focused on how to drive their point home just through every artistic stage, which is really cool.

47:09
Case Aiken
That's crazy to think about, because lighting is such a fundamental part of when you're filming. One of the things you have to do to be able to even say, like, oh, yeah, we shot it. Because if you didn't light it properly, you didn't shoot it. That's such a baseline. And even with other media, like with theater, also, lighting the stage is a huge part before any of the actors go on. It's so weird to think that lighting is so late in the game. On the animation side, I mean, they're.

47:36
Sam Willson
Definitely thinking about lighting in the beginning. Don't get me wrong. Like, your storyboard artist is definitely going to kind of add in some half tones and you might get some really rudimentary lighting, especially if it's going to be essential to animation. So, like, say, a character starts out in the dark and they walk into a spotlight, that spotlight will at least roughly be in there, but they finesse it. So all that stuff that you talked about in theater and live action that they do before, that all comes after adding rim lights or, like, reflected light or special effects light from torches, which is what I did a ton of work on.

48:19
Sam Willson
For the second one, I had to watch literally any film that had a torch in it and pull clips so that the artists could light the film properly and understand the light mechanics. So it was a fun job.

48:35
Case Aiken
So to circle back to this one, specifically noting that they had the assets, that they were able to not come in completely blind, but then still sort of, like, restructure the whole thing. I don't know. I guess what keeps on coming up when I'm looking at it is that this was like, an incredibly cohesive work that got put together under such a tight timeline, I guess, is what I keep coming back to, where they didn't really have a functional script, that they were nowhere near actually making it. And then even when they got into it wasn't just like, we got a sprint, just like, get the lines in. It was like they actually afforded the time to do improvisation with the actors, to have animators come up with stuff. It's, like, really crazy that you get these two narratives of both.

49:21
Case Aiken
Yeah, we allowed everyone to breathe, but at the same time, we also had no breathing room. From a timeline standpoint, when it came.

49:27
Sam Alicea
Out, you get the feeling that everyone had creative freedom, but a lot of people might have been sleeping under their desks for power naps. You get the feeling that I remember there's one scene, they had both weed.

49:40
Case Aiken
And coke on set.

49:42
Sam Alicea
Exactly. Because there's, like, one scene where. And I don't remember which one of the directors, but he's sitting at his desk and being interviewed, and he's like, okay, so I actually can't put off any of these scenes for tomorrow. I've got to write them now because we're actually meeting with the actors tonight, so I've got to write all of this now. And so, yeah, that's happening. And then he looks out the window, and he's like, is that a vacuum on their balcony? Even his focus to be part of the documentary is partially gone. You can tell. I just feel like if that's where the two top guys are at, I feel like there were a lot of animators. Like, I'm just going to take 20 minutes with this pillow and blanket and sleep under that craft service area, and I'll see you guys later.

50:34
Sam Alicea
I just feel like that's what was happening here.

50:38
Sam Willson
I mean, definitely there was crunch time. The hierarchy of your film is that your top tier people and then the very last people in the pipeline feel that crunch the most. So they definitely were probably more sleep deprived than the animators. The animators have the benefit of kind of being a little earlier in the process, but, yeah, they definitely put in a lot of overtime hours. I'm sure they were there on the weekends, but when. It's a labor of love, right?

51:20
Case Aiken
I've been there when he's doing that whole bit where he can't even keep focus, because just, like, he's so tired and it's ready to go. It reminded me of this one tech week I was in, where I was like, I think I've come to rely solely on coffee to survive right now. Sleep is not a factor in my life at the moment. So it was definitely like, yeah, that's a mood. I've been at that exact spot.

51:45
Sam Alicea
There was a moment that they were even surprised that one of the animators jumped in a pool and had themselves recorded, trying to mimic what it would look like to break. And he actually jumped in a pool. Like, he was just so excited. He was like, this guy just took his time off. Jumped in a pool, made it happen, got someone to record it. Isn't that awesome? And it's like, yeah, it is, but are you okay? Do you need rest? Because he kind of had this manic energy when he was talking about it. He was just so proud.

52:19
Case Aiken
That was part of the sets of bits that I found really entertaining about the documentary, but it wasn't part of the element of being like, oh, I can't believe they pulled this part off. The fact that they had really dedicated people to act out the scenes, that was so cool. And then likewise with the Foley and sound effects people, I was like, also very cool. Really never got a good explanation of what the difference was. They were like, there's a big difference. And then they didn't really spend too much time.

52:47
Sam Alicea
They were too tired.

52:48
Case Aiken
I understand what the difference is, more or less.

52:52
Sam Alicea
They were too tired to spell that out for you. Case that part of the documentary happened while they were not sleeping.

53:03
Case Aiken
But it was so cool to see how much, like you said, manic energy, like, how much passion was going on in this whole project.

53:09
Sam Willson
Yeah, it's really fun. So your question is, what's the difference between the underwater scene? And then I'm going to try to answer it for you. Solve this mystery and the Foley guys.

53:22
Case Aiken
No. So what I was saying, they say that there is a difference between the sound effects department and the Foley department. My understanding of it, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is that the Foley department is creating the sound effects that they are presenting. And there are certain types of things using physical media that they are then capturing versus the sound effects department is, for the most part, either looking through pools of material or gathering data from outside sources that cannot be easily replicated in studio.

53:48
Sam Willson
Yes. Or also. So Foley is kind of a subset of the sound effects department. So Foley is specifically the recording of live sound effects for your film. So then those sounds that were recorded live will be passed on to the rest of the sound effects department, where they might tweak or add digital effects to those, sometimes slow them down or speed them up or put an effect to make something sound like it's underwater. That's the difference.

54:23
Case Aiken
Yeah. Okay. I think I know what they're talking about, pretty much. I feel like I was good.

54:29
Sam Willson
Yes, you did very well.

54:32
Case Aiken
But it was just funny because they totally glossed over when they actually were in the documentary.

54:35
Sam Willson
I know. I do that. Let me know.

54:38
Sam Alicea
They were way too tired at that point. That was like, towards the end of the. Like, they were heading towards the end of their film. They're like, it's different. So, anyway, back to this crazy manic thing that we're doing right now, and we're also going to show Steven Spielberg the film and have his input, blah, blah. It was just like, by that point, were on a manic roller coaster of trying to complete a film.

55:00
Case Aiken
Yeah.

55:01
Sam Willson
So at that point in the process, when you're doing sound effects and the score and everything, in a perfect world, your film is completely done. Ideally, everything's rendered. Ideally, everything is in place, but at least your shot list is complete. Like it's cut to the second, to the frame, exactly how it will be in the final version. All the animation is complete. And ideally, you have rough lighting in there. Or final perfect world, it's all final lit. So, yes, they're very tired. They were probably up all night cutting together the final timing to get it to the sound effects people. That's probably what happened behind the scenes there.

55:53
Case Aiken
Now, when you say perfect world, it makes me assume that there is plenty of times where it's an imperfect world, perhaps the best of all possible worlds, but certainly not a perfect one. How frequent would you say that happens?

56:05
Sam Willson
Well, I can only speak to my own experience, which is, of everything I've worked on, we've only handed over a final cut to the sound effects department once. That was actually final, and that was a close to ten year career in animation. It doesn't happen that often. Also, I was put on a lot of smaller projects, so that does change things a bit.

56:37
Case Aiken
But yes, but that doesn't surprise me. A couple of fifth episodes ago, I talked about Mission Impossible Ghost protocol, which was Brad Bird's directed Mission Impossible movie. And one of the things that kept coming up with him, because it was his debut as a live action director, was that he kept on being surprised that when they were doing screenings that he couldn't go back and do reshoots after that, before they were doing theatrical cut. And it's just like, no, Brad, the reshoot time is done.

57:10
Sam Willson
Yep, you're done. It costs way more to bring in your actors again and go back to location. Whereas the animation, it's live. Like, it's editable until it's know, you can go in and be like, oh, that character. I wish he was a foot over. And then you can scooch your model and you're good. There's noodling in live action.

57:35
Case Aiken
Also, I just need to say this part. I don't hate Brad Bird.

57:38
Sam Willson
You could hate him a little bit.

57:40
Case Aiken
I know I fired some shots on that episode.

57:44
Sam Alicea
The Disclaimer has been laid down.

57:47
Case Aiken
I just need to reiterate that one. I said some mean stuff.

57:53
Sam Willson
Wow. Case, it's very funny because I worked at DreamWorks Animation and there was always this rivalry between Dreamworks and, like, DreamWorks was always the second tier. They were not as good as Pixar. And so there was always this kind of animosity. So part of me is a little happy that you hate Bradbird just a little bit. Just unjustifiably. So just, you know.

58:30
Case Aiken
Okay, well, then maybe we'll chat off.

58:36
Sam Willson
They're all great.

58:37
Sam Alicea
Edit that out.

58:41
Sam Willson
Stand by what I said. At the end of the day, we're all animation people and we are all part of the same team and we all get to do what we love, which is awesome. Some of us are a little up our own butts about it.

58:54
Case Aiken
I can't say that I disagree, whomever that might be you're talking about. Anyway.

59:02
Sam Alicea
I just want to say I love all animators equally. I like all animators, so I am not a party to any bashing or suggestive bashing that may be happening.

59:16
Case Aiken
No, it is all in love. And that was a discussion of a movie that I rather like. So that wasn't like. It was just like. It's interesting. Anyway, moving on. And the iron giant is a great movie.

59:27
Sam Willson
Oh my God, it is phenomenal movie. It is.

59:31
Case Aiken
Anyway, but moving on, because I don't know how we fell into the cesspool, and I don't have a good way to just dig our way out of it at the moment. So I'm just going to just do a hard pivot on this one, which is that I feel like we all can agree this was a really impressive movie, and it's especially impressive when you know the circumstances that are behind it. This came out the same year as Toy Story three. It didn't do as well as Toy story three. And it's not as good a movie as Toy Story three because what the fuck is.

01:00:01
Sam Willson
Yeah, it was the third installment of our childhood. There's backstory. You can't just come out of the gate with a new property and have that emotional weight of the third and final chapter of these talking toys that you grew up with. But the fact that DreamWorks came pretty damn close, it was actually hotly debated what was going to take the Oscar and what was going to take the Annie award.

01:00:36
Case Aiken
Yeah, this had two noms, both for animation and for.

01:00:42
Sam Willson
Mean. That is remarkable and really something to be quite celebrated and happy about. They did a really good job.

01:00:51
Sam Alicea
And I will be honest, I will rewatch this movie anytime where toy story three, I will think twice because it was actually kind of traumatic for me.

01:01:03
Case Aiken
That is true.

01:01:04
Sam Alicea
And the difference is that ending of the happy tears, the happy joy, I do cry every single time. But it is joyful. And also, honestly, I was going to say kids Sam, but even adult Sam feels this way. A world where dragons are just your friends flying around your village, like, hanging out with you, like, making your life just that much cooler, was definitely my dream as a kid, and I learned definitely still my dream as an adult. And this movie makes me happy as much as it makes me tear up and emotional. Where toy story three. It's kind of like it's time to grow up now. And I'm not sure I'm totally down with that message.

01:01:51
Case Aiken
Yeah, it's true. I would much rather dream of a world where there are dragons than fear that my childhood toys that got thrown away had feelings and had them broken and then died painfully.

01:02:02
Sam Willson
Yeah, man, that's a dark movie.

01:02:05
Case Aiken
It's a great movie, but it's amazing.

01:02:07
Sam Alicea
It's a good movie. But if there's two options of movies and someone's like, what do you want to watch? I'd be like, how to train your dragon, please.

01:02:16
Sam Willson
Yeah, it's funny, I find myself doing that a lot of, like, the Pixar films, they're really good, but there's too much weight to them. Like, too much realness to where it feels a little bit like emotional work to watch them again.

01:02:36
Case Aiken
That makes sense. Yeah.

01:02:37
Sam Willson
With a lot of the DreamWorks films and other films, there's, like this fun suspension of disbelief where you really are transported to another world and you kind of get to partake in this escapism, which is really nice and more relaxing than having to deal with losing your childhood or like, the trauma of having a dead spouse. And all of those dealing with your feelings.

01:03:04
Sam Alicea
Dealing with your feelings in any way, shape or form, saying goodbye to your imaginary friend, all that stuff. No, not fun going into the afterworld to find your dead grandpa.

01:03:16
Sam Willson
Yeah, exactly. Feelings.

01:03:21
Case Aiken
Wow. All right.

01:03:23
Sam Willson
This got off the rails. I'm sorry.

01:03:26
Case Aiken
That got off the rails in, weirdly, a downer movie, or rather a downer vibe after talking about a movie where a boy learns to fly a dragon, which we also all agree is just super awesome.

01:03:38
Sam Willson
Yeah. Right.

01:03:39
Sam Alicea
And differences are celebrated. It's a wonderfully happy, sweet film where there is great resolution and everything ties well together and you get invested in the characters too, which is great for something that they weren't sure how it was going to do.

01:04:03
Sam Willson
Absolutely.

01:04:03
Sam Alicea
This is your one shot. Do it right.

01:04:07
Sam Willson
And they did, and you're totally right. They hit all the right notes. They had this really beautiful balance between real feelings, but also fantasy. And they were able to. Ultimately, what made it successful was that they were able to make their audience feel what they wanted them to.

01:04:29
Case Aiken
I mean, like, let's not forget that the people who were doing this were masters of their craft, like Chris Sanders and Dubois did Lilo and stitch before this. And that's, like, one of my favorite Disney movies of all time.

01:04:42
Sam Willson
Also a so, yes, also asleep. They made that one completely at the Florida studios, and they hid it from the executives. And then it turned out great.

01:04:55
Case Aiken
Yeah, maybe that's the secret. Just get a bunch of good people, have these two go off in secret, and don't be like, here's some money. Here's some money. And a deadline. Make something. Because pressure does help kind of guide them.

01:05:11
Sam Alicea
Make sure they have that deadline, because they both looked like they were so tired, but excelling at the manic energy. They were like, this is what we feed on.

01:05:20
Sam Willson
Yeah. From somebody who worked in production, you do need that deadline. Otherwise people will noodle. I mentioned Richard Williams. He's a man that didn't have a deadline, and he did amazing work, but it took his whole lifetime. Sometimes it helps. Sometimes there is room for good.

01:05:42
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

01:05:43
Case Aiken
Yeah. But unfortunately, as much as I'm enjoying this conversation, we all have a deadline because we all have day jobs and we're recording this fairly late for our respective schedules. So, Sam Wilson, thank you for making an offhand comment about how cool this movie was on a podcast that I listened and then being receptive to me being like, hey, can you come on my show?

01:06:04
Sam Willson
Well, I would say anytime. Anytime. I am not with baby. I'm happy to. Come on.

01:06:14
Sam Alicea
Yeah, as soon as you start getting sleep. So maybe in two years, come back on. Bring us another cart. I love cartoon movies. I will rewatch because I've probably seen it. I will rewatch anything you want me to.

01:06:29
Sam Willson
Yeah, you should definitely. Come on, let's rewatch. That would be awesome. We're recording our final episode before parental leave, but you should reach out and I'll try and set that up. At least you could record. You could replace me. You could be the new Sam.

01:06:46
Case Aiken
Oh, a Sam swap.

01:06:47
Sam Willson
Yeah. Sam swap.

01:06:50
Sam Alicea
Oh, my God. A Sam swap.

01:06:53
Sam Willson
This is a great idea.

01:06:54
Sam Alicea
Swap one Sam for another.

01:06:56
Sam Willson
Yeah, it's a fantastic idea.

01:06:59
Sam Alicea
This reminds me of that TikTok. They'll never know, but how will they know?

01:07:05
Case Aiken
But again, thank you for coming on, especially in crazy times of your life. So, again, this was really great. Like I said, I thought I had seen this movie, and I thought it was like yeah, it was fine. And then just realized that I never actually had. So I'm so glad that I did because it was really good. I really enjoyed it a lot. And like we've been saying, would definitely rewatch. But while you might be going dark for a little while, where can people find you? Sam?

01:07:31
Sam Willson
Oh, I'm not on the Twitter. I'm sorry. I mean, I am. I have a Twitter, and if you at me, I will at you back, but I will not go out into the Twitterverse without reason. But I'm also on Instagram as Samantha L. Wilson. Wilson has two L's and Facebook. I'm on the let's rewatch group if you want to reach out to me there. And that's about it. Is that enough? That's enough. Maybe.

01:08:07
Case Aiken
However much you want to be reached out to.

01:08:10
Sam Alicea
Yeah, right.

01:08:11
Case Aiken
I mean, I guess technically people could also reach you at our discord, but true.

01:08:15
Sam Willson
I am not really on the discord. I'm sorry.

01:08:19
Case Aiken
It's okay.

01:08:20
Sam Willson
My husband is Bret Eagleston.

01:08:23
Case Aiken
Yes, he is.

01:08:24
Sam Willson
He can go by proxy if you feel so inclined. But if you reach out to me on Twitter, like direct tag me or message me, I will respond. So if you have a pressing question, feel free to do that.

01:08:38
Case Aiken
Yeah. But if you do, I would actually recommend just go to Instagram and see cute pictures of puppies while you're.

01:08:43
Sam Willson
That's my whole Instagram feed. It's just dogs and cats, so you're welcome, world.

01:08:49
Sam Alicea
I mean, that's the content we all crave.

01:08:51
Sam Willson
Really? Yeah, absolutely.

01:08:53
Case Aiken
Now, other Sam, where can people find.

01:08:54
Sam Alicea
You here on another pass with K's. That's it. Because I hide in the world.

01:09:02
Case Aiken
I feel so weird being the only one to have, like, real plugs, which is you can find this podcast on Twitter at another pass. You can find me there at case aiken. I do tweet a lot. More importantly, I retweet other people's bullshit a lot. So grain of salt. When you come check that out. I've just warned you. You can find this show@certainpov.com where you can find all kinds of other great shows. We're recording this in the midst of our Pokemon crossover week, even though this will be dropping a little bit later. So check out Saturday morning confidential with our budy Matty Limerick. He is awesome. The show is great. Every two weeks, there's a deep dive into nostalgia of some kind, and there's all kinds of properties.

01:09:42
Case Aiken
It used to be more Disney focused when it was dole, whip, and dreams, but now, it is a broader swath of know. Maybe this movie in particular was a nostalgic thing for you and you want stuff like that. There's all kinds of stuff. So go check that out there again. That's at certainpov.com. You can also find a link to our discord server. When you're over there on our discord server, you can catch up with us, I guess, just me from this call. Share memes talk MCU spoilers. We had a great conversation about WandaVision, and by the time this drops, we'll be deep in the middle of Falcon and winter soldier discussion. So if you want some spoiler chats, that's a good place for it. But yeah, check that all out. And Sam, why don't you let everyone know what is coming up next?

01:10:25
Sam Alicea
Oh, man, I have no idea. Could it be Highlander two? The quickening?

01:10:31
Case Aiken
It just might be.

01:10:32
Sam Alicea
Just might be. But if you like the show, then pass it on.

01:10:44
Case Aiken
Thanks for listening to certain point of view's another pass podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com. Meet Sam.

01:11:14
Sam Willson
Hi.

01:11:14
Sam Alicea
Like, I've never met a Sam I didn't like. So it's just the truth.

01:11:19
Sam Willson
Yeah, same. We're all.

01:11:22
Case Aiken
Yeah, this is true. You are two of the trio of sam's that I just consistently count on to, like, relatively progressive posts I put on Facebook.

01:11:32
Sam Alicea
All the sams.

01:11:33
Sam Willson
Yeah, you're like great people.

01:11:35
Sam Alicea
You were like, it's almost like a non scientific poll. Like, oh, 100% of sams are going to like my post. Yeah, if they are progressive, 100% of Sam's approved.

01:11:52
Case Aiken
It was also how frequently the first three people to like it would be named Samantha.

01:11:57
Sam Willson
So fun fact about that. I had to put parental restrictions on my own phone for Facebook because I got a little Facebook obsessed for a good portion of my pregnancy there. And Bret was, you might want to put your phone down. And I was like, it's not that bad. And then my phone warned me. They're like, you spent like 6 hours on Facebook today. We might want to put up some parental controls for yourself. And I was like, noted. Okay. Even the technology says it's too much.

01:12:34
Sam Alicea
Yeah, it's a little creepy when technology is like, I think you're taking the technology too far. You need to take a step back.

01:12:41
Sam Willson
Yeah, tone it back a bit, please, for your own good.

01:12:52
Speaker 4
Nostalgia is one of the strongest forces in the human psyche and is responsible for the continued existence of some of our favorite fandoms from the minds behind the Dolphin Dreams podcast and isolation cast voices from quarantine Saturday morning confidential takes you on a deep dive into the properties that helped influence the artists and creators of today. So whether you are a goonie, a gym girl, a digi destined, or you just want to return to Oz, new episodes release on Fridays biweekly starting January 1 of 2021. And join us on the Wednesdays after the main show for the serial killer Radio hour, where we sit down with the people responsible for the toys, shows and fandoms that you love. Now you can find Saturday morning confidential@certainpov.com, smod or on your favorite podcast platforms.

01:13:47
Speaker 4
So don't forget to tune in for another deep dive into the files of Saturday morning confidential.

01:14:00
Case Aiken
Cpov certainpov.com.