We’re joined by Scott Thomas (Infinity Podcast, And The Best Picture Is) to talk about apes with a real Killer Instinct. Get ready for a Co-Co-Congo Breaker! Have your green drop drink handy as we talk Congo!

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Transcription

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00:00
Scott Thomas
Yeah, we didn't invent digital fur technology until cats. 2019 took us a little bit, but we got there.

00:07
Case
Well, I mean, that's why the gorillas all have buttholes.

00:09
Scott Thomas
Yeah. Release the butthole cut of Congo. Let's. I demand if we could do this.

00:16
Case
For a time that starts to change the genre of the movie, though.

00:22
Scott Thomas
Welcome to certain point of views anotherpass podcast. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com.

00:33
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome to another past podcast. I'm case Aike, and as always, I am joined by Sam Alisea.

00:39
Sam
Hello.

00:40
Case
And we have a returning guest from the Infinity podcast. We've got Scott Thomas.

00:45
Scott Thomas
Hello, everyone. And for the sake of this podcast, you can call me Herkama Konoka, friend now from the chains of Ceausescu, traveling the world and doing good.

00:57
Sam
Okay, welcome.

01:00
Case
And if you got that reference, you know what movie we're talking about today? Today we are talking about the 1995 guerrilla movie Congo.

01:09
Scott Thomas
Yes.

01:10
Sam
Oh, yeah.

01:11
Scott Thomas
Yes. Otherwise, I am so excited.

01:14
Sam
Tim Curry tries a different accent.

01:18
Scott Thomas
So many people try accents. Delroy Lindo tries an accent. Ernie Hudson tries an accent. Lot of accent flexes in this movie. Yeah.

01:29
Sam
It's so many. Never sure where any of them are from, but so many attempts.

01:38
Case
I remember when it was coming out and the excitement around it was that people were hoping this would be the next Jurassic park.

01:43
Scott Thomas
Yes.

01:44
Case
And I got swept up in that hype, because if there is one thing I enjoy talking and thinking about more than dinosaurs, it's apes. And, you know, an idea of, okay, we got good gorillas, we've got bad gorillas. We're going to be doing a gorilla movie, but it's based on a novel by the same author as Jurassic park. Okay, cool, I'm down. And it's, you know, it wasn't commercially successful. It did fine in terms of numbers, but then it was critically panned. But it's a lot of fun, like, rewatching this movie. I'm like, this was a good, fun movie.

02:11
Scott Thomas
Yeah.

02:12
Sam
I want to say that people criticized the practical, the fact that it was puppets and the practical effects for the gorillas, but, like, honestly, like, I really appreciated it, maybe because we live in such a CGI world now. I was like, yay, puppets.

02:29
Scott Thomas
And it's clear that, like, Armani, to build off of what you're saying, like, our modern lineage of gorilla movies builds off of what happens in Congo. Right? We may be doing CGI with Planet of the Apes and Matt Reeves entire trilogy, but you still have Andy Serkis doing the mo cap. You're still going back to this movie which said, we're gonna put someone in a suit as the ape. We're gonna let a character be Amy, a person be Amy. And we're gonna trust that works and that the audience will buy in to a certain extent. Because I read for years that Crichton wanted to get this made, but his condition was, it's gonna be a real gorilla.

03:08
Case
Real gorilla.

03:09
Scott Thomas
Yeah.

03:10
Case
Yeah.

03:11
Scott Thomas
I found a quote that he said to Steven Spielberg when I was doing some prep for this. Have you guys read about the interview that Crichton gave about this movie when he talks about meeting with Spielberg to pitch this film?

03:23
Case
No. No.

03:24
Scott Thomas
Tell us. Good Lord. So apparently Crichton was really shopping this around and his condition was real gorilla. And that meant he met with the finest of the finest, including Steven Spielberg. And Steven Spielberg said, I would like to do this as animatronic. And Spielberg said, quote, I've had a lot of success with mechanical creatures. And then Michael Crichton responded, yes, Steven, but this isn't a fish. Wow.

03:51
Sam
Wow.

03:52
Scott Thomas
Yeah.

03:56
Case
And I mean, that of course, would be the earlier, like pre Jurassic park because that he wasn't attached to the movie by then. But it's just so crazy to think that, like, I mean, he then went and did animatronics for that. And obviously you can't just get a dinosaur, right? Yeah, but it's like, it's fascinating because, like. Because that conversation wouldn't have happened. Because, like, they were shopping at what, in the late eighties? So, like, in 88, sure. In 94. No. That conversation would have been like, I trust you, Stephen. You make good choices.

04:26
Scott Thomas
Yeah. Let me look at the last ten movies you made. Okay. You seem fit for this job.

04:31
Case
Yeah, that's crazy. That's just a crazy element. I gotta say. I actually really like Amy the ape in this movie. I like, I think that it, when she moves around, you can see that it's a person in a suit. But I think that the face works pretty good. There's a lot of stuff going on. Really well. I dig it. There were a couple points where I'm like, oh, it's weird that they keep saying mountain gorillas in this movie because. And I figured, oh, that's the buzz one. It's like they're, they are the rarest of the gorillas. It's only a few hundred. They have like 650 is like the stat I think they show at one point in the movie. And I'm not sure where it currently is, but they're super endangered. They're also infamously the biggest of the gorillas.

05:08
Case
So it's like, okay, that's also like, all right, yeah, sure. There's probably buzz going around. So they keep saying mountain gorilla. And I kept thinking, like, oh, it's weird that Amy, she looks like a lowland gorilla. And then I'm, like, looking it up, and it turns out that they were ordered to base her off a lowland gorilla because it was, quote unquote cuter. And I am just so proud of myself for identifying that difference.

05:32
Sam
Oh, my gosh.

05:34
Scott Thomas
That's when you know you're the target audience for this film you're going into.

05:39
Sam
I also love that the fact that, like, Hollywood was still, like, Hollywood was like, let's make it smaller so it's cuter. Like, it's just so. It's so on brand.

05:51
Case
Yeah, I mean, this was a good era of guerrilla suits, though, because, like, this is around the same time as George the jungle, which was actually a pretty good gorilla suit. Obviously, it's a comedy. And so, yeah, like, it's more anthropomorphized. And this is only, like, what, like two years before, maybe three years before the Tim Burton Planet of the Apes.

06:08
Scott Thomas
Yeah.

06:09
Case
Which, you know, is like, fucking, like, the movie is terrible. We talked about it here, but the special effects are amazing.

06:15
Scott Thomas
Yes. And I think you raise a really interesting point, which is that we relatively, in this podcast, grew up with movies that were employing this tech, right? We went on a run of guerrilla suit movies. And so I wonder what it's like for people who are in, you know, their early teens or college years looking at this. Are they going, what the fuck is that? Why wouldn't you just Andy circus it? You know? But for us, this cinematic language was established, and this was sort of the start of it. Like, you identified actually, for quite a few years, I believe.

06:49
Sam
I remember reading somewhere, this was a while ago, that part of the reason they decided to go with more practical effects with, like, a gorilla suit and things like that, is that CGI just wasn't quite there with, like, hair. You know, like, how detailed hair and movement could look to really create fur. And so, although for, like, Jurassic park and other things where you could add CGI, you know, making a smooth dinosaur was one thing, but having gorillas with, like, actual textured hair was just too hard, and it just didn't look right even when they had made a small attempt. And so just for any of those young people listening, that's why gorilla suits.

07:31
Scott Thomas
Yeah. We didn't invent digital for a technology until cats. 2019 took us a little bit, but we got there.

07:39
Case
Well, I mean, that's why the gorillas all have buttholes.

07:41
Sam
Most important things about cats.

07:43
Scott Thomas
Yeah. Release the butthole cut of Congo. Let's. I demand, if we could do this for a Tom Hopper film.

07:51
Case
Starts to change the genre of the movie, though.

07:54
Scott Thomas
Amy scared. Amy scared.

08:00
Case
When Amy, like, goes off with the tribe of gorillas that they encounter, or pot or whatever the term is for it. I should know that there's a moment.

08:09
Sam
Where it's just like gorillas and Highland, you know, mountain and Lowland. But you don't know what a group of gorillas is called.

08:15
Case
Yeah, I know. I know.

08:16
Scott Thomas
It's called a congo of gorillas.

08:18
Case
And, like, 300 years ago, people went on a tear just coming up with different names for every type of group as opposed to what any logical language construction would do, which is just have a name for group, and then that's it.

08:29
Scott Thomas
Yes.

08:30
Case
It's a murder of crows because people were being cute.

08:33
Scott Thomas
Yeah, yeah. It's a trouble of sagittariuses, which is not a real thing. I just made it up right now. And it's a congo of gorillas. I think that's. We could just call it that. That works.

08:43
Case
I sure.

08:44
Sam
I just googled it. It's troops.

08:46
Scott Thomas
It's troops. Okay.

08:49
Case
Yeah, that's also someone being cute because that's. That's playing with the gorilla, like, gorilla. Gorilla kind of thing right there.

08:58
Scott Thomas
Yes.

08:59
Sam
Yeah, that's adorable.

09:01
Case
Anyway, so I turned to my partner and I joked, oh, you know what this means? Like, she's not a virgin anymore. Because, like, you know, that's what the deal is, like, going on here, especially because of how gorilla troops function, where you have one primary alpha male and a harem, effectively, is their social structure. But, yeah, I'm picturing when we talk about the cg two versus being able to handle hair, the progression of the donkey Kong country games. If you remember the first one, he's got weird triangles for fur. And then by the time they get to Diddy Kong's quest, there's more noticeable fur design in there. Like, yeah, it took a while. Like, even the.

09:41
Case
Even the more recent planet the apes movies, I would say that the only one where they actually start to actually feel like they're part of the scene, even though the acting is amazing in the first two, is war for the planet of the apes. Like, that one, I was like, oh, shit. They've integrated it perfectly. That actually looks like fur is being covered with snow, and they're actually there in the moment. Dawn of the planet the apes, for example, is great. I love the performances going on there. Side note, if you're ever watching that movie, turn off the subtitles and watch the first 15 minutes of just apes doing sign language with each other. It's amazing. But they never, at any point when they're on screen with a human, feel like they're in the same room together. It's just CGI just wasn't there yet.

10:20
Scott Thomas
No. And you bringing up the video games is a really interesting point because I remember for years, I used to grow up playing Madden NBA, all those games. And the reason those were so uncanny valley is, especially in the football ones, the second people took off their helmet, you saw the hair that was meant to be on these players and you were like, well, that is not Jay Cutler. That is not Brett Favre. That is an abomination. That might as well be the Babadook. Like, this is not at all a person. And that were right on the cusp of that era of technology really making its way into movies. Like, it's. Those video games are easily the precursor to the rock in Scorpion King, right, where him making his big movie debut is just this slab of CGI. Who the fuck is that?

11:13
Scott Thomas
Atop a scorpion's body? And I think that, largely speaking for Congo, it's why the movie is a breath of fresh air. Still, it's not exactly the last gasp of an era that goes out of style, but it's the end credits, in a way, on practical effects as the primary currency of what Hollywood special effects are meant to be. This is right before we hit Independence day, and that might be the zenith. And from there, I feel like we start moving more and more into CGI stuff.

11:47
Case
Yeah, I mean, we're only four years out from the phantom menace.

11:49
Scott Thomas
Exactly. Yeah.

11:51
Case
So I guess part of it is that at the time when this movie came out, like, Jurassic park was the first, like, oh, shit, CGI can look real. Because before that, the most impressive things people could show were like Terminator two, where it's like, oh, look how good that, like, cool effect of this liquid metal is. But no one thought it looked real. It just, like, looked really interesting and like, I. And groundbreaking like this. It was just spectacle to be there. Jurassic park was a clever combination of animatronics and CG and proper lighting, which is the thing we'll talk about that did a really good job of making it all look cohesive and of a world. It was the same as, like, the you will believe a man can fly kind of scenario where it's just like, oh, yeah.

12:32
Case
Like, sure, it's still a movie, but, like, you buy in and people were really excited about that. And then a year later, you get this movie, which has a similar pedigree, and people were hoping to be equally wowed, and instead, it's all people in suits.

12:48
Scott Thomas
Yeah. And what's wild to me about the movie is that, like, whatever you make of the gorillas and suits. And again, I like Amy. I have more mixed feelings about the Guardian apes themselves, especially on this watch. I never mind it so much as a kid, but going back and watching it in prep for this, I went, oh, yeah. Okay. The seams are showing a little bit. That seems to be the thing that most people remember because, as you said, they were excited to see gorillas. They were excited for this to feel real. And what's wild to me is that the first three fourths of this movie still feel very real as, like, kind of a group of adventurers with Amy as the outlier, but she's still real enough.

13:33
Scott Thomas
And so this kind of glorious bee movie that takes us into the jungle, maybe in search of a hidden temple, maybe in search of laser tech that's going to help coms groups like that still crackles with the same energy that Jurassic park had. I'm not trying to create an equivalency between the two in terms of quality, but that really, up until the Guardian apes, it mostly feels like it's going to be in the pocket of that reveal, like, you do think they're going to earn it, I think, for a pretty long time.

14:05
Sam
Yeah. I think part of the thing is that even though you can tell Amy is possibly. Well, she is a person inside of the gorilla suit, her character feels real to you, and her relationship with her handler feels real to you and even just to everyone else in the space. So you can kind of, like, excuse a little bit of, like, maybe this isn't real because she starts to be fleshed out as a character. You know, she has things that she loves. She has things that she doesn't like. She definitely wants to smoke a cigarette. And I like these, like, nice touches.

14:38
Case
And drink her green drop drinks.

14:40
Sam
Yeah, her green drop drinks. She just needs one to take the edge off. I mean, and who doesn't? Amy is relatable. Hashtag relatable. But then when you get to the guardian apes, they're, you know, just like these, like this force of unexplained protectors of this space. Because, I mean, like, you know, maybe they're territorial, okay? But, like, why? Like, you know? You know what I mean? Like, what is it about this space? What? Is there something there? I think that this movie, especially in the second half. Well, third part has a lot of questions that it, like, is never going to answer.

15:15
Case
Just.

15:16
Sam
It's never going to answer. And then they just pop up, and so, therefore, like, you see them and they don't feel real to you because there is no characterization. There's nothing. It's just clearly people in suits attacking other people.

15:30
Case
You know what was a bummer for me? Like, so it's Stan Winston doing the special effects on this, and, like, the work is actually really good. Like, when they get shots of, like, the faces of the Greys, there are actually a lot of detail going on in it. Like, so I appreciate a lot of the artistry, but the. The gorillas don't look big.

15:49
Scott Thomas
Yeah.

15:49
Case
Like, they don't feel strong. They don't feel like. I think there was a vibe to try to have them be kind of like wolves or, like. Or like the raptors if we're going to make continued Jurassic park comparisons.

15:59
Scott Thomas
Yeah.

15:59
Case
As opposed to what kind of, what we think of gorillas as being, which is just fucking huge, so you don't get that element of it. And because they're so well lit in the finale, you see them very clearly. You see them in size comparisons with people, and, like, they look like that they're human sized things walking on all fours, like, the ferocity of them while it is conveyed sufficiently that, like, as a kid.

16:23
Scott Thomas
Yeah.

16:23
Case
Like, didn't really think about it too much. It was just like, yeah. Surrounded by monsters. Okay. They happen to be guerrilla monsters, but they're monsters. They aren't particularly impressive.

16:32
Sam
Yeah, yeah.

16:33
Case
And that's what kind of makes them not work as, like, the principal antagonist. I think a lot of that has to do with, like I said, the lighting, and a lot of that has to do with camera work. But I think that they could have made them bigger. Like, they could have exaggerated their physiques.

16:46
Sam
Honestly. They could have used stilts. Like, if you're building the costume anyway, you know, like, get them a little higher off the ground. Get them a little, you know, get them arm extensions. That's classic puppetry too. Like, so it's not something that was, like, not invented yet. You know, it's not something that's, like, beyond the knowledge of performers at that point.

17:09
Case
Yeah. I mean, I imagine they have some of that going on, but it's just not very pronounced.

17:14
Scott Thomas
Well, and a point that you guys are making, and it ties back case to your reference to donkey Kong country. And maybe this is why I'm jumping to it is this movie sets up the gorillas to be the final boss. Like that's really their purpose. We meet them at the beginning. Nice screenwriting, right? All the things that are going to show up in the movie happens in the first 15 minutes. John Patrick Shanley. Tony, an Emmy winner, knows his stuff. Still can't believe John Patrick Shanley wrote this movie like one of our great modern dramatists. But the movie is a series of escalating obstacles that are meant to build to the gorillas. And they serve as the final boss for every single quest in this film.

17:52
Scott Thomas
Whether it's Homoka questing for the city of Zinj, whether it's getting the tech back or finding out what happened to Charlie, whether it's getting Amy home. The gorillas are the final boss obstacle. And then you see them be ostensibly kinda shrimpy, like they're basically the size of Stephen Graham on boardwalk Empire playing Al Capone. And you're like, this is not what I thought I was promised. And it doesn't really live up to the expectation of a final boss, you know? Like, that's because we don't really know that much about them. So if they're going to serve as something that creates dramatic tension, the visual, the way that they move has got to be the thing, because the story, the lore isn't really there to string us along. It's dumped off in the movie's back third. But it's not really there from the jump.

18:50
Sam
Yeah, I mean, hear me out. I feel like they're a suicide cult because they did jump into that lava.

18:56
Scott Thomas
I love that.

18:57
Case
Yeah. It's so weird that they just jump in.

19:00
Sam
Just making my own head cannon for them. They are a suicide cult. They really like the diamonds. Cause that's gonna bring them closer to their death and their doom. And they've just been waiting for that volcano to erupt and someone interrupted their ceremony. I feel like that's a really possible thing. I was just like, wouldn't animals run from this lava? Come on, guys.

19:24
Scott Thomas
I mean, listen, if I had existed for thousands of years just to have my final purpose being killing doctor Frank n furter, I would think about jumping into the lava too. I'd be like, oh my God, this is what I waited for. This was pointless. Yeah.

19:39
Sam
Or maybe it was just like mission achieved, but, like, super let down. Like. Like, wow. Now that all my goals are done, what am I going to do with my life? I guess. I guess we're done.

19:52
Case
I kind of love how much we have, like, all the things that we've talked about that are sort of the issues. I actually have things to address in my pitch, which I can't wait to get to.

20:00
Scott Thomas
Great.

20:01
Case
But before we do that, I do want to move on from the apes just because that, like, they're so. They're gonna be something that we're gonna talk about no matter what. Quite a bit of, because they are the hook for this whole movie. But I do want to call out attention to some of the actors because were talking about just the amazing cast that this movie has. And I'm gonna start with Laura Linney.

20:22
Scott Thomas
Yeah.

20:22
Sam
She's amazed. Balls.

20:24
Scott Thomas
Yeah.

20:25
Case
Like, she. So I had a note as a thought of, like, oh, well, what if, like, we had some sort of element of using Amy's backpack to power the laser? That would have been, like, kind of an interesting thing. Like, her, like, sort of working things out. And I say this to my partner, and then she's like, no, because she's completely prepared for everything, this whole movie. You shouldn't have to have her improvise. Like, literally, she's got everything under control from start to finish. It's just every now and then, she's like, this part's going to be hard. Can you help me? But she sees it through up to the point where she has a hot air balloon. You to get out of there.

20:59
Scott Thomas
Yep.

21:00
Sam
She has air conditioners. Mini air conditioners. This woman is so prepared for everything in life. Like, she's just, like, fancy tents, mini air conditioners. Like, all the tech in the world. Like, one of the statements is, wow, you really know how to pack. That's something someone says to her. I love her character. I think that she's great. I love Laura Linney in general. I think that she's great. I did think that it was like. Like, there was, like, a weird interaction. Like, you know, like, the first. The first time they meet her, and I can't remember his character's name is this Dylan Washington. Doctor Peter. Like, you know, they kind of had that fun moment of, like, doctor. And then when she tells him that, like, she's, like, her.

21:50
Sam
Her PhD or doctorate is in technology, he, like, kind of, like, makes fun of her. But I was like, but aren't you using virtual reality and, like, technology to, like, voi. Like, help your gorilla make a voice like, what? What is going on? Why are you making fun of her and her tech degree? That was weird.

22:13
Scott Thomas
It's a fair thing. And also because she consistently presents as being so competent. Like, any reason to make fun of her should go out the window in the first place. Two to three minutes. And it's actually one of my favorite moments in the film is we find out that she's in the CIA and then the film doesn't keep harping that. It just continues to show us why she probably excelled in the CIA. Like, when your plane is under rocket fire, go use the flares to distract the heat seeking rockets. Like, what a moment. What a fantastic Laura Linney beat.

22:48
Case
Yeah, a real cool sequence. And, like, every point after that, like, continues to have her be on top of her shit. She's like. Like, what I love is that in comparison with Peter Elliot, the primatologist, who you would think if this was analogous to a jurassic park, that this would be Doctor Grant, but he's not prepared to exist in the wild when he gets a leech on his dick. She's just laughing at him along with everyone else. It's kind of wonderful that she fits in. She's competent, she has the best tech, and she's able to do some of the coolest stuff. And she's the one who sees everything through.

23:25
Sam
Yeah. He's very naive and altruistic about a lot of things.

23:30
Scott Thomas
And a nice thing is the movie doesn't overtly force any of its characters together too quickly. You know, like, I think that it's. It is copying from that Jurassic park template in which we understand that Alan. And what is the name of Laura Dern's character? I can't remember for the life Ellie Sadler are together, but it doesn't really give us explicit moments of physical intimacy. We see, like, the relationship developing between Peter, between Laura Linney's character as it goes, but it never forces the moment. In a worse movie, the leech thing could have been too cute or the thing in the tent could have been too cute. And it really lets them kind of just be at opposite ends without forcing the tension to go one way or the other. For really most of the movie.

24:19
Scott Thomas
I think it's a credit to Shanley, actually, who's really smart about that stuff.

24:23
Case
The most on the nose scene is like, when the monkeys are all talking.

24:26
Scott Thomas
Yes.

24:27
Case
Or all making their, like, sex noises.

24:28
Scott Thomas
Yeah.

24:29
Case
And they're joking around about it. Like, that's the flirtiest, like, outright moment in the whole movie.

24:35
Scott Thomas
Yeah. And. And even that is like a lesser movie would have had that just, that would have dovetailed straight into some happy, fun tent time. And, you know, it doesn't. It holds off, which is a nice thing and not very emblematic of other nineties blockbusters like Jurassic park and Congo are kind of more the outlier there, I think.

24:56
Case
Yeah, maybe if it was a little bit later in the movie, it would have felt more like it would have gone away. It's a little early for them to actually hook up.

25:02
Scott Thomas
Yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah.

25:04
Case
It's just like, it's so nice having those, like, such a capable female lead who, like I said, is not only prepared for everything, is able to execute on all these plans. Like, she came off to me like Doc Savage in this pulp fiction story that they are presenting and the crossover that they're doing is with, like, someone like a Tarzan or like an Alan Quatermain. And that's Monroe.

25:26
Scott Thomas
Mm. Yes.

25:28
Case
Played by Ernie Hudson. And, oh, my God, like, he's not doing necessarily a great accent, but he is doing a very charming one.

25:35
Sam
He's very charming, and I really appreciate that. He is like, when the shit hits the fan, he's like, all right, so we're leaving. Because that's. I mean, I probably wouldn't have ever gone, but I really appreciate that he assesses the issue and goes, all right, everyone, let's collect everyone and leave and.

25:53
Scott Thomas
Talk about, like, a fantastically progressive character from 1995, too, in a way that I never clocked as a kid. But this is a character that was originally intended to be played by Sean Connery, that gets to be played by Ernie Hudson, who's a person of color and a guy who is fully aware of himself, both being an outsider and being, like, a low status man of color when compared to a lot of the white adventurers who have come before him. And not only does he acknowledge all the cliches about it, jokes about it, but then when he gets rageful at Tim Curry in that moment where Curry maybe or maybe not is going to let something slip, you see all his pride, you see Fury. Like, there is so much that's active about this character from a.

26:39
Scott Thomas
From a racial perspective that I'm like, you didn't have to go that hard. And it's awesome that you did. Like, that is. That's a more. What's the word I'm looking for? It's a sharper angle on the character than I had remembered as a kid and was really happy.

26:54
Sam
Yeah, it's very nuanced and layered and also I going back to you saying he's progressive. He also, like, never at, like, there's never a point where he, like, doubts Laura Linney's character. Like, he's never like. No, no. Like. Like, he's an authority on what he knows, but he never, like, talks over her or talks down to her. He's never like, listen, sweetheart, I'm your tour guide through this. Like, he completely believes that she's capable and he knows where of. He kind of has expertise, which is like, more with the natives and things like that and maneuvering the jungle. But he completely allows her to have her expertise. So his character all the way around is very progressive.

27:43
Scott Thomas
No, you're right. Game recognizes games.

27:45
Case
The sexiest moment in this movie is when Monroe grabs the second flare gun and is right next to her, and they're both lining up their shots together and, like, they're not fated. Cause, like, no one actually, like, gets together in this movie. But, like, they're not. They don't feel like they're necessarily, like, fated to get together in the way that, like, some movie characters do. But damn is it. It's just this, like, swashbuckling energy for the two of them, deflecting fucking missiles with flare guns.

28:10
Scott Thomas
Can I be real? Every single thing Ernie Hudson does in this movie is sexually charged. I had in my notes that, like, rawly sexual moment when Amy goes to. Or Amy goes to confront him, and he looks at her and just takes cigarette and puts it in her mouth. I was like, good lord, that's charged. I'm like, I'm not making that up. Right? That is a sexually charged moment. And it's just like everything he does in this movie is laced with come at me energy. It is.

28:41
Case
Yeah. Well, he does know that she has some sharp teeth.

28:44
Sam
You know what? I think that he's very supportive of her, too. She clearly wanted to try that, and he allowed her to. Another progressive moment.

28:53
Scott Thomas
Yes. This man is boundaryless, and we respect a king who is boundaryless in his ways.

29:01
Case
And also the funniest scene in the whole goddamn movie when after the mountain gorilla makes a stand against Peter and he turns around and Monroe was standing right next to him and all the other people right behind him, and they're all just gone, and he just pops up out of the bushes.

29:20
Scott Thomas
I could talk for ages about how successful this movie is as a comedy. I think this movie is legitimately hysterical. The encounters with the regime, everything from the interrogation with who is Kafka? Tell me. And the coffee and cake sequence with Delroy Lindow. Oh, yeah, that scene rules.

29:45
Case
And that actually sort of is a good transition into a character who is definitely comic relief in this movie, which is Tim Curry as Herkimer Homolka. Like, he's a little bit of a Bond villain, but it doesn't like he never is actually threatening to anyone. He's more just sort of like this weird con man buffoon kind of figure with an obsession.

30:02
Sam
This man is obsessed. He's obsessed, like, comically so. Like, there are times where people are like, it doesn't exist. And he is like a tantrum response. Like, it does exist. Like, yeah, like, honestly, he's. Yeah, the character's hilarious.

30:20
Scott Thomas
And you guys just both, in your description, hit on what makes him so great, which is like, imagine a bond villain with an oral fixation who's going broke. That's this character. And that if you told me that James Bond was gonna, like, fight someone who was on the phone with the bank being like, I just need another hundred child for this laser. I just, seriously, I need 100 thou for my laser. Like, I'd be like, sign me up for that bond movie. I'm there. And having Curry, this guy with this, such gravity, but also the skill to play down when he has to in this role, it's delicious. Every single thing he does and says in this movie, it drips. It's so good.

31:01
Sam
Yeah, I mean, Curry's like, he's so good. And I love all of his facial expressions always, like, you always know exactly where you're going to stand with him. Like, which character you're going to find, like, by the beginning of the movie. Right? Like, so. Because even the moment you see him and he's in the lecture hall, you know, he kind of signals to you with his eyes that I am more than you think and possibly evil. Like, and he does that because that's what Curry does. Like, he's just like, all right, I'm going to tell you. Wink in a nudge.

31:36
Scott Thomas
Truly, I'm looking right now at his IMDb to see, like, what his run of projects was leading up to this. Because in my head, I went, did he come off of Muppet Treasure island and do this film? Like, did curry go from that to this? And the answer is, yes, he absolutely did. That's exactly what he did.

31:59
Sam
It's. Of course, yes.

32:00
Scott Thomas
And right after that, he did gargoyles. So he basically cements himself in our childhood and lives with, like, this run of stuff. And don't worry. The other thing he did right before that was Sonic the hedgehog playing king Acorn. Oh, and Mighty Max and dinosaurs. Like, Tim Curry was just carving a path through the pop culture.

32:25
Case
Well, a lot of that's him as a voice that we will absolutely remember because it stands out so much. But then also remember right before that was home alone two.

32:32
Scott Thomas
Yes.

32:32
Sam
Yeah.

32:33
Scott Thomas
Oh, my God. Of course.

32:35
Sam
Yeah. He was all over our childhoods. Like, Tim Curry was like, a very big part. Like, I see his face and I still feel, like, immense. Like, aw. Tim Curry, even though he spends a lot of time being villainous, but still.

32:51
Scott Thomas
No, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. And like, for all the classics, like Hunt for Red October and right before that clue, I mean, it's. And he's one of those. I often reference this article that was in premiere magazine when were growing up about what was gonna define a movie star in future generations. And thesis was, it's gonna be the movies that play on TNT all the time because those are the ones that's gonna lodge itself in your brain. It turns out that was half right. Like, for us, Tim Curry is this beloved star not because he was in the biggest or the best projects, but because he was in so many that we digested as kids in a short amount of time.

33:32
Scott Thomas
And that legacy is less likely to leave our brain than some of the stuff we're ingesting now because it was a foundational building block of the nerddom of the analysis that we're doing here today.

33:43
Sam
Yeah. Just in general, just like, yeah.

33:46
Case
So I'm gonna pivot away from the main cast for a moment to talk about the other sort of comic relief character in this, who is criminally short in his appearance, which is Joey Pantiglioni or Pantaleone. They can't pronounce last names. Joey Pantigliono. Yeah. I can't do it.

34:04
Scott Thomas
Wow.

34:04
Case
Joey pants. Joey pants.

34:05
Scott Thomas
I can't say it. It's okay. I'm infamous for not being able to get people's names right. And so I just call them Matthew McConaughey. So it's. You have my support.

34:14
Case
Yeah. Oh, wow. I can't believe I just tried it that many times. Still couldn't get it right. Anyway, so Joey pants as Eddie Ventro. He is uncredited in this movie and is one of the best parts. Like, when he shows up, I'm like, I'm here for every moment that you're in. And spoiler alert, in my pitch, he's in for the rest of the movie because he's great.

34:32
Scott Thomas
Fantastic. A talking gorilla. The money hairs on the back of my neck are going woo, woo. How much? Oh, my God.

34:40
Case
Yeah, it's just so fun. It's so nice having that kind of fixer, you know? I think that's what the rest of the movie is missing.

34:46
Scott Thomas
Yes. And actually, like, the secret joy of this movie is its escalating series of character actor appearances. Like, for a while, this film is basically, it goes five or six minutes before you're introduced to another crazy character and then another crazy character. And that's the thing. You don't actually want to end. You're like, I just keep meeting awesome roles inhabited by these great character actors for about an hour and change. I think it's at the end of the first hour that we are in the plane leaving to try to go deep into the jungle, and the last thing we saw was Delroy Lindo. But that means that we met Delroy Lindo. We met what's his name from lost as Coyega in a very early role. The guy who went on to play Mister Echo, and he was king shark in Suicide Squad. He's there.

35:34
Scott Thomas
Joey pants like Joe Don Baker showing up as the head of Techcom. Yeah. Just chewing the scenery. Bruce Campbell, the first five minutes of this movie.

35:47
Case
Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Gonna talk about that one in a moment.

35:51
Sam
Yeah.

35:52
Case
Also, early appearance by Kevin Griveau. Gravio. Wow. I can't. Also, last names are just not with me today. Who would go on to be very well known for lots of stuff. Underworld comes to mind, but he's also an accomplished comic book writer and is the scariest voice I've ever heard.

36:06
Scott Thomas
Yeah. Oh, he's terrifying. And he's great in this. It's whatever you want to say about Kennedy and Marshall. Like, they knew how to cast and draw from a talent pool, and they really made it count on this one.

36:18
Case
The only. The only spot that I have a little bit of issue with is Dylan Walsh as Doctor Peter Elliot. And one of the big issues I have is it turns out that Bruce Campbell read for the part and they didn't go with him. And that's just goddamn silly. And damn it. Now I think that Bruce Campbell wouldn't fit the movie that they made.

36:34
Scott Thomas
I.

36:35
Case
So I have some. I kind of, I was like, I.

36:37
Sam
Don'T agree with you. I love Bruce Campbell, but I think that he was the right kind of naive to be the opposite of Laura Linney's character. Like, right, Bruce.

36:49
Case
Bruce Campbell's jawline does not allow for the kind of soft boy that Doctor Elliot is in this movie.

36:55
Sam
Exactly. Not at all.

36:56
Case
But can you imagine?

36:58
Scott Thomas
Well, and that's the thing. Like, Dylan Walsh is seen secret hard. Right? Like later in his career, he's pivoted to a lot of roles.

37:05
Case
Oh, like later stuff. Not in this movie.

37:09
Scott Thomas
No, not in this movie. But. But like later in his career, he actually pivoted to playing a lot of villains or heavies with not unbelievable success, but with enough success that you would keep hiring him that way. And I think that's what they were hoping to tap into here. Like, he's going to have just enough chutzpah to stand up to that gorilla and for it to be surprising rising. He's going to have just enough stuff to get through the big moments and it doesn't really materialize in the performance, even though you can see the building blocks there. I think.

37:39
Case
Yeah, it's a little bit of a bummer, but it's overall fine. I think the problem is that in the movie that they made, they spend too much time. He's technically the lead. He's technically the hero of the story. And that's annoying because both Doctor Ross, which is Laura, Lenny and Monroe, which is Ernie Hudson. Like those. Those should be the heroes. Those should be your main focal point characters.

38:02
Sam
Yeah, I don't think that he is the. I don't think that he is like the hero at all.

38:09
Case
Oh, he's. He's not actually. It's just like they frame him a bit too much as that.

38:13
Sam
Like, yeah, I think that she's the hero.

38:18
Case
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

38:19
Scott Thomas
Yeah, it's absolutely her movie. And it's funny. It is kind of like the nineties framework that doesn't let it totally be her movie. Right. Like, you can imagine a pitch for this movie where she is. Where she is seen going to meet them and we don't shift perspective over to Amy and Doctor Peter and that cadre. Right. It's like where we literally follow her from Techcom to the showing because it is her quest to find Charles and get this tech back that we really start with. That is the main engine as constructed.

38:55
Case
And it's interesting from adaptation standpoint because she's more of a villainous character in the novel. Yeah. Then Elliot is the more heroic character, so he's less of that in this movie. And giving her a altruistic motivation to do everything makes it. Makes her the hero. Like, has her take it over, but, like, it's still, like, still framed. Like the bones are still of him being the hero. Because that's where the book was.

39:20
Sam
Yeah.

39:21
Scott Thomas
Yeah. It's interesting. That's another one that I want to credit to Shanley a little bit, but only because are you guys familiar with his plays at all? Is he, is he a writer you've encountered much?

39:31
Case
I can't say that I have.

39:33
Scott Thomas
So John Patrick Shanley is absolutely wild. He's a guy who is best known for creating these kind off Broadway character studies, typically, like, very irish american, very intense stuff. He wrote, among movies, moonstruck. He wrote Joe versus the volcano. He wrote doubt. That's probably the thing that most merged his theater stuff with his film stuff. And so he's this guy who has always had a deep empathy for female characters and for letting them be, for lack of a better word, like shades of Grey in terms of who they are in a film. Right. They're allowed to be messy heroines. They might be in the villain role, but they're not actually going to be the villain like Laura Linney is. He's often been a very good writer for women at a time when a lot of men weren't writing women very well.

40:28
Scott Thomas
And I think it's really interesting that he sort of spots Laura Linney where she is tonally this film and lets her be kind of whatever the film needs her to be and doesn't put her in a box, which is really nice. Yeah.

40:42
Case
And like I was saying. So I watched this because, Scott, you and I had originally tried to do this a couple years ago and schedules didn't work out. So I did a rewatch then, and I was comparing my notes from that versus then I rewatched it last night. And it's interesting to look at it because I think when I did that rewatch, I was a bit more nitpicky. I was, like, really trying to, like, find areas where it's like, okay, this doesn't work quite that well. Or like, this scene didn't really play out versus just sort of being there for the ride on this one where, oh, my God, it's so fun. Like I said, it was pulp fiction y before, and it really is.

41:17
Case
Like, it, like, this is lost diamond mines of Sol or Solomon's minds or whatever, like the Alan Quatermain story, like, right there. Like, it's. It's fun. It's crazy. You got, you know, hippo attacks. Like, like, what more could you want?

41:31
Scott Thomas
Yeah, I woke up and watched it this morning and thought, this is the perfect way to watch this film. It has more in common, like you said, with pulp fiction. With a Saturday morning cartoon that happens to be live action than it does with, like, a weighty film about science, or even, like, the primal existential terror that informs Jurassic park. It's swashbuckles. It's scary when it wants to be, or tries to be scary, but it's not that. Like, to use the parlance of the times, it's not that deep, bro. Like, it really just kind of. Like. It wants to get you on the ride and for you to enjoy it. And I kind of felt like a little kid again, watching it this morning, thinking of the way I used to wake up and watch cartoons. The same exact vibe again.

42:15
Case
I think it just suffered because they were trying to positively associate it with Jurassic park. People wanted it to be that kind of prestige piece. And it's just not like it's a b movie. And there's some. I feel like it's a little too earnest at times. But it, like you said, it doesn't have any of those big moral quandaries about science. Like, the biggest one they have is, like, is communications tech worth it? And it's like, well, we know. We know now. It definitely is.

42:40
Scott Thomas
Yeah.

42:40
Case
Those telecon companies, like, have way too much power.

42:43
Scott Thomas
Yeah. Yeah. Ahead of its time in that way that. Although that's something were dealing with a lot in the nineties. Right. Like, even that feels a little borrowed from Skynet. Like, we don't have an evil artificial intelligence here, but we have a satellite that we need to operate and that we understand. It would be a pretty shitty thing if the satellite went live.

43:01
Case
Yeah. Like, definitely. Some bad people would make some money.

43:03
Sam
There were a lot of things in the media in the nineties about the possible perils of technology, of that kind of communication. I mean, the Internet was scary. Right. It was fairly new. And so, like, that whole. That whole thing, like, the way that we think of the Internet now. Although we do know now that it is kind of scary. We've confirmed that. But it's a different type of nightmare than what we thought it was back then. Definitely. And so that was definitely part of the book. I did read the book when I was younger. I really liked it because I liked Amy, but I don't remember a lot of it, to be honest with you right now.

43:46
Case
Yeah, me either.

43:47
Scott Thomas
Yeah.

43:47
Sam
Same in my old age.

43:49
Scott Thomas
Yeah. It was one of those books that I read. I think that's the other thing that I remember most about this movie. And Michael Crichton in general, none of his stuff was so explicit as to be scarring or kind of like, reforming in terms of your boundaries. But it all was just gory enough, just violent enough, just hard sciency enough to feel transgressive when you were young reading it. Like, I kind of remember going to the library and trying to check out the $1 paperback version of Congo without anybody catching me doing it or asking any questions. And same with Jurassic Park. I think that's one of the nice things about this movie, is that it does occupy that space. There was still stuff in this that grossed me out as an adult or that I was like, ooh, that hurts. But not.

44:39
Scott Thomas
Not on the level of a Jurassic park again, which I've had the pleasure of watching multiple times in the last few years. And I get to certain moments of that movie, and I want to look away, even now, knowing what's coming. It's rooted in something that's so much scarier at a bone deep level in the way it's constructed.

44:56
Case
One thing that did gross me out, and it wasn't gross me out from, like, a. It's a gory kind of thing, but I didn't know how to feel when I was watching this scene. Is the scene when they encounter the, like, the ghost tribe?

45:07
Sam
Yep.

45:08
Case
When they're traveling. And I. What I mean is that I haven't been able to find how much information they, like, actually took. Like, did they find out about, like, a cool tribal thing that, like, fit really well, or did they just choreograph a dance move?

45:20
Scott Thomas
And.

45:20
Case
I mean, Adam Shankman's choreographer on this one.

45:23
Scott Thomas
This was an Adam Shankman joint.

45:25
Case
Yes, it was.

45:26
Scott Thomas
Oh, my lord.

45:29
Case
Yeah, I saw that, and I was.

45:30
Scott Thomas
Like, oh, fuck, Shankman. Oh, man, that's funny.

45:35
Case
But so I don't know if that actually answers where that falls. Like, is it cultural appropriation or is it actually good? And I don't know, but either way, I don't know enough, and I can't tell in the context of the movie. And I feel uncomfortable with the sequence. It looks a little. A little like, look at these primitives kind of thing.

45:56
Scott Thomas
Yes, it does.

45:57
Case
Not good.

45:57
Sam
Well, they're doing something mystic, too, with their dance. Right. They're trying to keep his soul, to have his soul return to his body. And so. And it's. It's just like. It's uncomfortable.

46:09
Case
Yeah. Like, it actually works is I think the thing that makes it, like, really feel that way, because it's not just like he. He then does wake up just in time to have a heart attack from seeing another gorilla.

46:20
Scott Thomas
Yeah.

46:20
Case
And that's what, like, that. That makes it feel, like, intentionally supernatural.

46:25
Scott Thomas
Yeah. Yeah, 100%.

46:27
Case
So that was a bummer. And, yeah, like I said, even if it turned out to be pretty well researched, I don't know, because I was watching it being like. Or maybe it's good that they found this stuff that would fit appropriately, that's in the right region instead of some sort of vague concept of Africa.

46:46
Scott Thomas
Yeah, yeah. Totally agree.

46:49
Case
And then were sort of talking about some of the weaknesses. Like, we mentioned that the gorillas were kind of rough, but the finale, I think it's just generally, like, too well lit. You see, too, it looks like, I think, the camera angles too far back too often, and you can see everything too well. And so you see all the seams that we're kind of saying. And thus, like, while the actual beats, I think, are pretty well. Pretty well and good, it just doesn't have the sort of visceral impact that it should have.

47:14
Scott Thomas
Yeah.

47:14
Case
Especially as an adult looking for something like that. Looking for something that's more timeless as opposed to the movie I just happened to see this weekend kind of thing.

47:21
Scott Thomas
Right.

47:21
Case
If you want to actually, like, is it worth watching now when there's so much that you could watch as opposed to just what's playing?

47:27
Scott Thomas
Yeah, I think it's a really good.

47:29
Case
Way to put it, but in the end, I find it still a pretty fun movie. I was really not mad to have rewatched it.

47:35
Sam
Yeah, I wasn't actually disappointed in this one. You know how I feel sometimes when we're watching stuff. I thought that, like, overall, it was pretty fun. Kind of felt like one of those classics, like, you know, everyone's in search of something kind of thing. And I thought that the characters were actually pretty great, and I thought that there were actually emotional beats here. You know, not everywhere, but, like, enough that it made it worth the journey. And, yeah, overall, I still think that this is, like, a fun movie. Like, if you're sitting at home and you have nothing else to watch, if you're cleaning your apartment, you could play this and stop and watch certain moments and just really kind of enjoy your life.

48:21
Scott Thomas
Yeah, totally agree. I referenced TNT movies earlier in this podcast, and I think this is a really good version of those. Like, this is a movie where if it was playing on tv, you might sit down and finish the whole thing. You might just clean your apartment. And to be honest, if it wound up being edited for tv, there's a chance you would get a slightly better cut of the movie. You know what I mean? Like, I think it going in and out of commercial is not gonna be a thing that hurts this film. It's going to serialize it even more. And that's wonderful. I would love that. I would enjoy seeing this movie that way.

48:57
Case
I think you're onto something there. I think that with some appropriate cuts, we could possibly have a better movie. So why don't we move on to pitches?

49:06
Sam
Wait, hold on. We're talking about cuts, right? So we should cut so you can talk about a certain point of view.

49:12
Case
So, yeah. So we'll run an ad, and when we come back, we'll have our pitches.

49:15
Scott Thomas
Beautiful.

49:16
Sam
Hey, there, screen beans. Have you heard about screen snark?

49:20
Scott Thomas
Rachel, this is an ad break. They aren't screen beans until they listen to the show.

49:24
Sam
Fine. Potential screen beans. You like movies and tv shows, right?

49:29
Scott Thomas
I mean, who doesn't? Screen Snark is a casual conversation about the movies and television shows that are shaping us as we live our everyday lives.

49:36
Sam
That's right, Matt. We have a chat with at least one incredible guest every episode, hailing from all walks.

49:42
Case
We've interviewed chefs, writers, costumers, musicians, yoga.

49:46
Sam
Teachers, comedians, burlesque dancers, folks in the film and tv industry, and more.

49:51
Scott Thomas
We'd be delighted for you to join us every other Monday on the certain.

49:54
Sam
Pov podcast network or wherever you get your podcasts, fresh and tasty off the presses.

50:00
Scott Thomas
What? That's. No, that's not.

50:02
Sam
Can I call them screen beans now?

50:05
Scott Thomas
Fine.

50:07
Sam
Screens.

50:12
Scott Thomas
So tune in, and we'll see you at the movies or on a couch somewhere.

50:17
Sam
Cause you're a whole screen beans now.

50:24
Case
That was the transition right there.

50:26
Scott Thomas
I love it.

50:26
Sam
It was perfect. It was perfect. Don't beat yourself up about it, Matt.

50:30
Case
I'm sure you could fix this.

50:32
Sam
Why fix perfection?

50:35
Case
Why fix perfection, indeed. That said, this movie was not perfect. I've got some thoughts about it, and I know y'all have some thoughts about it. Scott, as our guest, would you like to take the first swing?

50:46
Scott Thomas
Oh, let's see. Okay, so, in terms of pitching a fix for this film, I think it's a. It's. It's tricky, right? Because you want to talk about, like, what really goes wrong, what could make this more interesting in a modern sense? What I would actually pitch as the fix for this movie is expanding the beginning to the point where we get the lore for those gorillas. So I think what we want to do, like, my pitch for the movie, is basically, have there be kind of a temple escape in the beginning of the film. What we have now is Bruce Campbell and his lackey kind of going into the temple, seeing it and establishing that there's a threat inside.

51:27
Scott Thomas
I think the more interesting to do is to make them legitimately credible explorers with an expedition kind of basically do a raiders of the Lost Ark. I don't think we need the traps, the anything. But the sense that these two men, this team that went out there, is, in fact, quite good at what they do. They were excellent. And that we then see them lose their life to these guerrillas or to a dark, shadowy force. You don't have to do the reveal here, but that we basically established that they're great and whatever was out there was worse. Because if we know that's waiting and we maybe get hints in and around the temple of the guards of what's coming, then we know that the thing that's going to arrive at the end is going to be more worth our time.

52:16
Scott Thomas
It's not going to be locked into the visual reveal of them. We're going to be worried about going back to this location that we've infused with more meaningful, that we understand that whatever our heroes are going to have to do is going to have to live up to or be more lucky than what these truly skilled explorers tried to do and failed to do. And I think in that sense, it also makes us care more about Charlie. We're kind of coasting on Bruce Campbell's inherent charm and his good looks. But we're not given much beyond Laura Linney's reaction to him and his position as Joe, Don Baker's son to care about whether he's alive or not. And that means that quest of hers really isn't as important or meaningful as it can be.

53:00
Scott Thomas
And I think if we're going to have those things be an instrument or engine of the film, we need them to matter. And so I would argue that we actually give it a nice, expanded opening sequence that gives us this kind of rollicking, almost self contained adventure that ends with these guards, that ends with the shadowy murder of Bruce Campbell and the guy with stringy hair who I can't remember his name of for the life of me. And that from there, we kind of unfold the movie as is because it gives us a sense of actual dread of what's coming. As much as the eyeball thing is nice, I don't think it's enough. And we don't really get a sense of what adventuring is or what the cost of it is.

53:40
Scott Thomas
We keep getting told over the course of the movie often by Ernie Hudson in a very charming way, what adventuring is and what it's going to be like. But if we get to see it and not hear about it, I think we arrive at a more successful version of this film. And that's my most major pitch for a thing I would like to fix.

53:56
Case
Really interesting because I have very different notes. But I do really like that kind of take on it. Basically doing a mini movie at the opening to sort of set up. Here's what it looks like when you've got your usual a team. So you need something even better. You need your s tier to go out there and deal with this shit. You need all these mercenaries and all that stuff. And also a talking gorilla.

54:21
Scott Thomas
Yeah. And then it really makes Peter in over his head. We see him in over his head, and that works. But, like, if you basically do have this incredibly crack weird a team that gets put together and, you know, because of this opening mini movie, yo, Peter Walsh is a dead man walking. Oh, God. Like, he should not be there. Then his being there is. Is a dramatic raise of tension just by the virtue of his presence. Like he's the one who's gonna get them killed. He's the one who's gonna get them in hot water. That's kind of what happens. But he becomes more of a ticking time bomb in terms of when something's gonna go wrong.

54:59
Scott Thomas
And then him standing up to the gorilla would have even more meaning too, because there's this notion that the wild is truly different and that only certain people can survive there. We kind of get that. But I've always thought the guerrilla standoff was as funny as it was a little meh because, well, he knew what he was doing with Amy. And so there's at least some pretense for him to be able to accomplish this in a way that's meaningful. If you.

55:25
Case
Yeah, it's funny. In that scene, he says, I know, I've read the books. And I'm like, didn't you write the books?

55:31
Scott Thomas
Yes, exactly. It's like, they're like, dude, you wrote the book. Come on, bro. You didn't just read. Yeah, I read my own book. I'm good, right?

55:41
Case
But he can't be that badass, because he's.

55:44
Scott Thomas
Because he's Dylan Walsh, not Bruce Campbell. But. Yeah, but that's. That's the thing. I arrived at watching it this time because it would also keep in the spirit of the pulp adventure thing, but also give genuine stake to the thing that it feels like we're most let down on which is the reveal of these gorillas at the end. And that even with a little bit more lore as to who they are, the appearance could be. What's the word? I'm looking for a little bit of a letdown.

56:12
Scott Thomas
But if we're given more reason to fear them from the outset and understand what threat they pose to this group that's coming in, the less that mistake hurts, I think, and the more it's something we can pave over because the story will have really given us something to chew on while we wait for that to happen. So that's my pitch.

56:31
Case
That's really nice. Sam, do you want to go next?

56:36
Sam
So my pitch is similar in a way, but different in that I would not change the beginning. Honestly, the biggest problem with this film is the fact that the lore of this city is not really explained and you don't really understand these villains. So, you know, you don't understand the final boss. So what I thought was I wanted to add a memento, maybe even a possible engagement ring that Lauralini could, like, pull out every now and then, which I think would still give you, like, a little more, you know, like, she almost married this man kind of thing like that. So it's very small moments because I really actually think that the beginning buildup of this film is pretty good. What I'd like to do, what my big edit would be is somewhere in the middle.

57:27
Sam
And I know that there were a lot of, like, really great moments and comedy and stuff like that. But somewhere in the middle, I'd like to have a nice exchange between Ernie and Tim Curry about the legends of this space. And, like, Ernie Hudson just being like, yeah. But I've heard, you know, about these creatures that guard it right. So, like, kind of like, you know how, like, in the mummy, you get that nice by the campfire feel kind of spookiness where she's explaining the mythology behind what may or may not have happened in the book of the dead and all of this thing. So something along that line, especially because both of those actors are so fun and why not? They're working so hard on their accents, give them a moment to interact. And that's basically what I would do.

58:20
Sam
I would make the last scene, even though it's the boss scene, I'd probably tighten it up a little bit and not make it quite as long. Definitely still the Charlie reveal of his body and things like that. And, you know, keep the gruesome, like, let it be. But I would, like, give some more shadows again so you don't see as many seams because we're working with what we got. Yeah, that's basically it. Cause I really enjoyed this film, so that's all I would do. I'd kind of, like, put in a scene where it's, like, people sitting around the fire and, like, kind of watch, like, Doctor Peter Elliot being like, wait, wait. I'm just here to, like, bring a gorilla home. Like, what are you guys talking about? Like, where are we going? What the fuck is happening? And just kind of.

59:11
Sam
And his assistant, who I love because I'm also a coward, just be like, we should just go on our own. Just go on our own. Like, no. What the fuck? And he'd be like, how? We're already in the middle of the jungle. We don't know where we are. We've got to be with these people and kind of realize that they're f ed. They have to keep going on this adventure. And so it's like, basically, it's a very small, like, very small tweak. But, yeah, that's my pitch on how to fix it because I loved everyone in this.

59:41
Case
Yeah, definitely more Tim Curry. Ernie Hudson scenes would have been amazing. Like, we get a couple of them and that. Like, they get some nice banter back and forth, but. But, yeah, like, using them for exposition, I think, is way more dynamic than pretty much anyone else.

59:55
Sam
Yeah, I mean, you can even have, like, Richard, who's the assistant, kind of, like, bring it up. Like, ask Tim Curry and just kind of have him just be like, well, you see? And then Ernie hurts. And be like, yeah. I also heard there's, like, a group of, like, super aggressive, you know, monsters, gorillas or whatever. I don't know what term he would use. You could spice it up a bit and kind of have them go back and forth about it and everyone just be like, okay, time for bed, you know, kind of thing. But then there's that sense of doom, you know? Probably would have been better than the slug on the penis scene. I mean, like, that was funny, but, like, you could probably cut that and put that in or both.

01:00:37
Case
The movie's not overly long.

01:00:39
Sam
Fair enough, fair enough. Keep everything.

01:00:43
Case
I don't know. I do actually think you should cut stuff. There's a few spots that I felt were a little expository too soon. Because while, yes, I think that this movie should be Laura Linney's movie, I think that all the stuff earlier on actually is like, I almost married him, for Christ's sakes. Yada yada. Yada. And then she shows up, and she's like, this woman of mystery. And I kind of think that's a thing to sort of play up a bit more. So for mine, I kind of see, like, they want the cold open where we get the kill. It's like the. It's like the raptor being loaded in Jurassic park kind of thing. I would keep that opening pretty much the same. Maybe try to convey that their travel time's a bit longer.

01:01:24
Case
Like, you could do a few calls, but you're not seeing as much information on the other side, like, at the stateside offices. But once you get the actual murder of the fiance Charles, regardless of who is cast in that part because of a thing I'm about to say. But as long as Charles dies, what I think is that we should focus in on the eye and smash cut to the drawings of the eye from Amy. I think that we shouldn't have the scene of them getting, like, confirmation and seeing the campsite be destroyed. I think that's too much information there. That's also where they, like, really go over too much stuff that they could have saved for later. And it would have felt, like, more meaningful, because then Laura Lenny feels like a woman of mystery.

01:02:02
Case
And also her paranoia about the killer ape feels crazier early on until you find out that she has reason to think about something like that. So that the traveling with Amy and so forth would, like, this was a time where pop culture was trying to sell or not sell, but really make sure people understood that no, gorillas are not wild, murderous things like the fifties, like the King Kong kind of stuff. This was an era where people were trying to be like, well, no, they're actually fairly docile creatures, and yada, yada. This is an era where they would want to try to sell that. And you could have that feel like an irrational fear that Peter Elliot is trying to actually dismiss and trying to prove away.

01:02:44
Case
I think that would be a helpful element there so that it really feels important when we get to the actual murder saves, because that'll be a thing. Now, on that note, I think this movie should be campy. I think that this movie is not campy enough. I think it's a little too earnest at times. And this is why I actually think that Bruce Campbell could work in the role of Doctor Peter Elliot. I think that sure. Like, he's got to be a buffoon. And I want. I want us to believe that he is a master primatologist, that he knows all of his shit in his chosen field. And that as soon as he steps away, he.

01:03:14
Case
He still is, like, ready to be square jawed and whatnot and has no fucking clue what to do at every goddamn point for this, my movie, about it. Like, he's used to being Doctor Jones, but he's not actually able to punch a nazi kind of thing at Berkeley. Everyone loves him. He's the ape guy. He's so goddamn good looking. He's so ready. He's got a weird romanian philanthropist who's funding him. It's like we're going on an expedition to the Congo, and then immediately, it's all just wrong.

01:03:46
Scott Thomas
Like, you had no idea what you.

01:03:48
Case
Were getting in for. Everyone's gonna have to carry your ass this whole goddamn time. I think that. So we keep a little bit of a focus here, but basically, he's a fake out protagonist. I want Laura Linney to ultimately be the real protagonist, but she's mysterious at first, and we'd kind of deal with all that. I love all the stuff with the flying with the green drop drink and all that. I want to keep that kind of stuff. And so much so that, like, when they meet up with Joey pants, he stays with their crew the entire time because that's awesome. He should be with them. And I think that throughout the movie, he and Amy should be bonding. He should be teaching Amy how to play cards and, like, all that kind of stuff.

01:04:26
Case
Like, I think, like, I think the two of them should have a scene where they're both drinking green drop drinks, like, in the background, because he's just fucking great. And I just think that we need that kind of thing. Like, I think that Joey pants should be. Should stay with the group and, like, four scenes that still happen, like, with the ghost tribe. I feel like he should be, like, up front, like, trying to, like, haggle with them and communicate to, like, get them to give permission to, like, go see, like, the dead body and stuff, rather than just sort of, like, offering it because he feels like quark from deep space nine. Like, I want someone who is able to, like, barter and make the deals and, like, feel like that. The person you want as your, like, intermediary man.

01:05:01
Sam
Yeah, I kind of. I don't know how I feel about that one. Go on.

01:05:06
Case
Well, so, again, I'm trying to sell sort of, like, a campier kind of thing. I want them to get to the jungle faster, which is one of the reasons why I want to cut some of the stateside stuff, get them out there when they. When they do the airdrop. I think that they should probably lose a couple people. I don't think they either say that they did or if we spend much time on it, but I think that, like, once they actually land on the ground in the jungle, we need a tighter group, because the majority of the, like, they've got, like, eight or eight to ten guys, something like that. And it doesn't feel. They feel like they're lackeys. Like, we don't really spend that much time with them. I would.

01:05:44
Case
I would like them to all be bigger personalities, but who's gonna die?

01:05:47
Sam
You need your red shirts, though.

01:05:49
Case
No, I know we need red shirts, but. But we don't rec. But I prefer, in this scenario, to know the names of the red shirts.

01:05:55
Scott Thomas
Okay.

01:05:56
Case
The same way that in, like, the JJ Abrams stuff, like, they kind of make a joke of it, like, all the moocs in the JJ Abrams verse. Like, for the most part, we actually, like, get to know a little bit, like, there's the cupcake guy, and, you know, like, there's that kind of world where, yeah, you know, they're people. They're not totally anonymous individuals in the background. What people go on, and then once they are on the ground in the jungle, I think that after we find, we can have the scene with them on the call or, like, where she, like, checks in with the base stateside. And I think that's where we should get, like, a little bit more detail about the guerrilla stuff to start to reveal and, like, find out more about Laura Linney's, like, history.

01:06:37
Case
I think we should have, as they're traveling, the. The sense that they're being watched, that there's something kind of stalking them. And the biggest point where that should really happen is right before they encounter the mountain gorillas, where the mountain gorilla, like, they're, like, clearly something is watching. You get the sort of, like, apeish vibe to it. And then the big silverback shows up, and it pulls away to indicate that it doesn't want to be, like, confronted with the other gorillas so that, like, okay, they're. They're studying them. Maybe they're kind of luring them, and that once they actually arrive at the campsite, they. I think that they need to be, like, under little bits of attacks that sort of, like, push them, lead them into the temple, wherein, when they come across the bodies of the gorillas that the.

01:07:21
Case
The greys have killed, it should be indicated to be, like, a ritual kind of thing. Like, I think, Sam, you saying it's like a cult actually works here, like the murderous, like this, like, murderous rage that they go through should have, like, this, like, kind of religious component to them. It should be this, like, very primitive, like, kind of cannibalism cult where they, like, lure things into a pit to murder. And they're doing that now to the humans. Like the, like, everyone who kind of comes kind of close is this way. And it's implied that they've been doing this to the gorillas because we kind of see that here. Then, like the, like, the night fight, I think is, like, pretty good.

01:07:55
Case
I like, I love it with, like, the weird, like, laser fence that they've got going on and turrets, like, all that stuff's great. When Amy goes off to find the gorillas later, I think we should cut a little bit away from, like, she goes and, like, talks to them and, like, I think we should cut a little bit sooner in the scene because it's like, it looks like they're, like, fucking off. And I think I like. And you, as you'll see what we're about to get to while the humans are being hounded by the greys, which I think should beefed up. They should have exaggerated physiology and they should be illuminated. It should be darker for the most part. Like, we should be getting flashes of them. We should rarely see a full shot of their body.

01:08:27
Case
And when we do, it should be lit in sort of interesting ways. Like, I think in the diamond mine we can have lots of, like, we could have, like, disco ball lights a little bit. Like, like, if there are, like, fires that are, like, maybe refracting off interesting ways to kind of, like, give, like, dynamic lighting to it all. But while they're making the stand against these big, scary gorillas, that's when Amy should show up with an army of mountain gorillas.

01:08:51
Scott Thomas
I mean, I dig that.

01:08:53
Case
And that's the distraction. It's not that she just shows up and, like, starts signing or sign language.

01:08:59
Sam
She's basically the elves that show up to helms deep.

01:09:03
Case
Exactly. She went and parlayed with the fucking gorillas. And what I want to get the vibe is that there's actually been going on a warm of these gray gorillas with the mountain gorillas have. That actually have been like, there's actually politics going on in this location so that when she sews up with the mountain gorillas and, like, because, like, there's two things going on. Like, they never actually show the mountain gorillas and the gray gorillas in proximity with each other. So we never get a vibe of it. So the gray gorillas look small, and I don't know if they're actually smaller than the mountain gorillas or supposed to be smaller than the mountain gorillas. I don't know how big the gray gorillas are.

01:09:39
Case
Like, if they're supposed to be smaller, I'd like something to compare them to show that they're smaller or if they're supposed to be the same size. Awesome. Like, whatever. But, like, we should actually have some sort of perspective on what we're looking at, because otherwise it's just people in suits, and so I think that would be supportive. Also, I think that the gorillas, they keep talking about how I've never seen animal move like that. They're so fast and so, like, again, they feel kind of like dogs. I would like them to be fighting humans more aggressively, using, like, brute strength. Like, I think they should be testing the fences by pushing trees down on them. I think that when they actually start capturing humans, they should be using body parts as weapons.

01:10:16
Case
Like, they start, like, the first gorilla that shows up throws a head. I think they should. Every time they kill someone, they should be tearing off the head and using it as a projectile. I think that at one point, like, a gorilla should be over a human and rip open the body of a corpse that they have already and have the blood rain down on the person, so they're vulnerable to another gorilla coming in. From the aside, velociraptor style, I think that we should have, like, big, physical, like, use the. Use the strength of these things. Like, they're. They're monsters and they're animals, but they're not like the raptors, which are like. Like talons. They're not. They're not wolves with their teeth. Like, they are impossibly strong and very smart.

01:10:53
Case
And those two should combine in a way that isn't just I'm angry and running around like rabid dog and I'd like more of those kind of things, but I still fucking love the, like, put them on the endangered species list line and the laser and all that. Like, that. That ending, totally fine. The volcanic eruption, maybe angle your shots, maybe put rock outcrops in front of where the lava's coming so we're not, like, focusing on it so much because the lava doesn't look very good. You know, you can have, like, lots of pyrotechnic effects with it and so forth. Like, you can look. You can make the volcanic effect look really fucking nightmarish, and it really should look hellish if the camera angle is lower.

01:11:27
Case
It's way too high in every shot because you just see, like, the lava pour out and, like, the gorillas jump into it, like. And then that way, Amy can, like, leave with her tribe of apes that she's with now, which has to happen anyway. And then they get on the hot air balloon, and Joey Pants should be the one that Laura Lennie gives the diamond to throw. And he makes the throw it and then actually pockets it.

01:11:47
Scott Thomas
And that's where the movie should end.

01:11:50
Sam
Nice.

01:11:51
Scott Thomas
So into Joey pants walking away with money.

01:11:53
Case
It's a big, campy adventure.

01:11:55
Scott Thomas
Yeah, yeah. Now I'm just dreaming of Joey pants having his own adventuring series where he goes from mission to mission on a hot air balloon, suddenly independently wealthy wheeling and dealing. Just like, basically, it's just basically uncut gems in the jungle with Joey pants. But he's much less claustrophobic and he survives.

01:12:18
Case
Yeah, yeah. So that's mine.

01:12:23
Scott Thomas
I love it. I have notes. That's great.

01:12:27
Sam
Yeah. My only objection is to Joey negotiating with the tribe. Cause I feel like Ernie doing it was just fine. And I don't want a white dude being my black to white translator.

01:12:42
Case
I think upfront should be Ernie. I think that, like, I like the part where they laugh and it's like, why are they laughing? Because I'm black. Like, that's a good scene right there. I think that when they go, like, when they walk in and they, like, to the whole tribe, not just to the tribesmen, I think joey pants should be off on the side, like, making a deal. And maybe it's not to see the body. Maybe it's something else that they're doing for, like, safe passage or something, or.

01:13:04
Sam
Oh, I think he should be trading, like, a cigarette or something. Like, that's fine. I think he should just be, like, trading tobacco. I think that's fine. I just think that, like, the actual, like, deals that go down with the tribes should just still stay Ernie, he is the person who's the expert of that part of the jungle. So I just want to, I don't want to take away his agency for campy ness, no matter how much I like Joey pants. Or, first of all, I actually think that, like, yes, it would be great to see him playing with the gorilla, but I love the fact that he was like, yeah, no, this is as far as they go. Cause this is my level of danger. So gonna go now. Bye. Look, there's something really great about that.

01:13:46
Sam
Like, yeah, I did my part here. Gonna. Gonna go find a martini. I'm done. This is the airport. The airport's as far as I go. But I do like him teaching bad habits to Amy. That would be great.

01:14:01
Scott Thomas
Yeah.

01:14:01
Case
I just want him to show her how to play poker.

01:14:03
Sam
That's fair.

01:14:04
Case
Or blackjack or something.

01:14:07
Scott Thomas
Absolutely fair.

01:14:07
Sam
It's fair.

01:14:08
Case
Yeah.

01:14:09
Sam
Yeah. I would like the scene where she loses and gets mad, like a real gorilla just kind of. Kind of, like, puffs her chest. And he's like, whoa. Okay, fine, you can have it. And just, like, give her whatever food they were playing for. Cause they don't really have money.

01:14:25
Scott Thomas
Then she. Then she turns to doctor Peter and just winks with one eye, being like, yeah, the hustled's become the hustler. Amy hussle. Amy rich. Amy.

01:14:38
Sam
No. Amy see a sucker.

01:14:42
Scott Thomas
Amy bluff. Amy good. Gorilla.

01:14:45
Case
Oh, last thing. I want the mountain gorilla silverback to give a nod to Lori, Lenny's or Laura, Lenny's character at the very end, just being like, you got this. We got this. Thank you. I respect you and none of these other people.

01:14:59
Sam
Hey, you're the silverback of that crew, right? Yeah.

01:15:04
Scott Thomas
Game recognized game.

01:15:06
Sam
Exactly. The boss nod.

01:15:13
Scott Thomas
Any film is improved with a good boss nod.

01:15:16
Case
Yeah, but I feel like all three of these are fun takes on it. Cause the movie's already fun.

01:15:21
Sam
You kind of had, like, a free willy moment, you know, between Amy and doctor Peter. Go, friend, go. I understand.

01:15:30
Case
I was like, I just feel like Amy is gonna be really upset when she can't get green drop drink.

01:15:34
Scott Thomas
Oh, she's gonna murder those apes alive.

01:15:36
Sam
Like, I mean, I don't think we, any of us, when we make life decisions, realize the things we have to let go of. So it's just part of life, Amy, accept it.

01:15:46
Case
I mean, I feel like the best case scenario for her is to be living with a troop of mountain gorillas.

01:15:52
Scott Thomas
Yes.

01:15:52
Case
Near a research site where people are studying them so that she can, like, walk over and be a translator between the apes and them and occasionally get green drop drink and cigarettes.

01:16:02
Sam
Yeah, listen, I mean, she's going to encourage all of those other gorillas to smoke, if that's the case. And I think it's probably just better for them that is not that. What's happening. You know, cancer. Amy cancer.

01:16:15
Scott Thomas
I was going to say, you know, like, the negative side, no green drab drink. The plus side, no jaundice. There are givers and takes, you know, that balances out.

01:16:25
Sam
Yeah, yeah. She's living a much healthier lifestyle now, case. Like, it's fine. And also, like, she. She gets to get laid now, so, yeah, maybe the edge will be taken off in other ways.

01:16:44
Scott Thomas
If you're implying that green drop drink is also a sex term, I'm here for it. I think that's absolutely 1000. Look, that went up on urban dictionary.

01:16:54
Sam
I'm fairly sure if it's not, we should add it.

01:16:56
Case
It does get her to say tickle Amy a lot.

01:16:59
Scott Thomas
Tickle me. Tickle me.

01:17:02
Case
Yeah. So, I mean, like, this was the fun movie to kind of revisit. And like I said, I think we all have, like, fun ways that would sort of accentuate the strengths of this movie. I understand why the critics wouldn't really love it. It is about a sign language gorilla fighting monster gorillas. Like, I think we end up with a pretty good time. Like, if you're. If you're here for pulp fiction kind of stuff where people fight atavistic apes using laser guns and riding hot air balloons, then that's. That's what you're here for. If you thought this was going to be jurassic park, it's just not.

01:17:31
Sam
Yeah, yeah.

01:17:33
Case
So unless anyone has anything else they want to mention about this movie. Scott, thank you for coming.

01:17:39
Sam
Yeah, thank you.

01:17:40
Scott Thomas
Thank you guys so much for having me. This was quite literally years in the making, and I'm so happy we got to. To finally make it happen. A privilege and a pleasure.

01:17:49
Case
So you've got a lot of stuff going on. As with, it seems like every podcaster, you have multiple shows, including one more than you did last time that you're on. So give your plus.

01:17:58
Scott Thomas
That's absolutely true. I have two podcasts right now, and the best picture is where we take one movie approximately a week, approximately every few weeks, and then arbitrarily decide it won the oscar and justify why. And of course, you can hear me with fellow certain POV member Rachel Corgi Schenck on the Infinity podcast, where we are connecting popular culture to pop comics with an infinite number of detours along the way. We're going to be covering everything from modoc to invincible to loki, coming up. So if you enjoyed my takes on this and bad impressions of Amy the gorilla, who, boy, have I got a podcast for you, because I do not stop doing voices. That is, I am living my best life doing impressions whenever I possibly can. So come on over, spend some time.

01:18:48
Case
Yeah, I mean, all of your stuff has been great to listen to. And, yeah, I mean, obviously, Infinity podcast is probably the one that most people are more familiar with. And it's just a great show. I love listening to it every week.

01:18:59
Scott Thomas
Thank you. We love doing it every week. It's just a great listener base and so grateful to be able to show up week in and week out and just spread some joy, create some takes. It's good stuff.

01:19:10
Case
And if people wanted to find you, where should they find you?

01:19:12
Scott Thomas
Can find me. Og scotty t on Twitter and Instagram. That's where I post about all my podcasts, post about the acting that I do. You can see me on HBO and in the game Red Dead redemption two, and just have a good time. I promise. It's a fun, safe twitter space. A lot of psyduck memes. I'm literally, I can show y'all you. I'm literally wearing a die cut psyduck necklace right now.

01:19:35
Case
Oh, my God.

01:19:36
Scott Thomas
Because I decided beautiful, breathtaking. Eventually you become a parody of yourself. And I just wanted to get ahead of that and lean into the psyduck jewelry while there was still time.

01:19:46
Sam
I have jigglypuff earrings, so, yes, that's.

01:19:49
Scott Thomas
What I'm talking about.

01:19:50
Case
Sam, where can people find you?

01:19:52
Sam
They can find me here and nowhere else. Cause if you have complaints, you should find case. Case, where can they find you?

01:19:59
Case
That's true. On Twitter. People can find me. Acase Aiken, the podcast is another pass. You can find us there, or you can find us@certainpov.com. Comma, which is a great website with lots of podcasts that tackle a whole bunch of nerdy things from lots of different perspectives, tons of great shows. You mentioned Rachel, so we might as well give a shout out to Screensnark, which is a fantastic show where Rachel and Matt Storm bring on a guest each week, and they have great conversations about what's on their mind in terms of the most recent stuff that they've seen and just pop culture in general. Great conversations. Anyway, Screenstark is a great, casual conversation every time. I really enjoy listening to the various perspectives of the people that come on and like what's just on their mind about media. It's a great show. Check that out.

01:20:47
Case
It's at certainpov.com. Also, it's certainpov.com.

01:20:51
Scott Thomas
Comma.

01:20:51
Case
You can find a link to our discord server. We are currently having this call on Discord right now, but just come hang out. We're sharing memes. We're talking about Star wars spoilers and arguing about Oscar picks. So, like, those are always, like, a fun time. Come check that all out. And well, Sam, take us home.

01:21:09
Sam
Next time on this show, we'll be talking about Highlander two, the quickening. But until then, if you enjoyed the show, pass it on.

01:21:22
Scott Thomas
Thanks for listening to certain point of views. Another podcast? Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com.

01:21:51
Case
Without being like too intense or highly philosophical. That's the wrong way of phrase. That's the wrong way of phrasing it too.

01:22:00
Sam
It's all, sorry, Matt.

01:22:01
Case
It's always a great casual conversation.

01:22:05
Sam
He messed that up. We really like you.

01:22:07
Case
I know.

01:22:08
Sam
Maybe I just like you more than case does.

01:22:11
Case
I love the show. I brought it on this network.

01:22:16
Sam
And case's meltdown is complete. He's red, everyone.

01:22:21
Case
That is true. Yeah.

01:22:26
Sam
Don't edit this out, Matt. Don't. Don't do it. Leave it in.

01:22:30
Scott Thomas
Keep it post credits. Keep it.

01:22:34
Sam
Keep the credits in.

01:22:37
Case
Cpov certainpov.com.

AI meeting summary:

●      The meeting commenced with a detailed discussion of the 1995 movie "Congo," focusing on various aspects including characters and production. Notable points were the humorous accents by actors like Tim Curry and Delroy Lindo, use of practical effects, and strong characterizations like Laura Linney's Monroe. Ernie Hudson's role was praised, Joey Pantiglioni's comic relief noted, and the comparison between Dylan Walsh and Bruce Campbell discussed. Cultural representation and lighting criticisms were also touched upon, recognizing the film as an entertaining adventure.

●      Subsequently, a movie review was scrutinized for improvements. **Scott** suggested expanding the beginning for gorilla lore, while **Sam** proposed enhancing the middle with city lore and deeper character relationships. **Case** recommended a campier approach and stronger visuals, including Joey Pants in negotiations. Creative pitches were made, such as incorporating gorilla rituals and improving action sequences.

●      The participants shared insights and ideas to enhance the film's entertainment value, respecting its charm. Their respective podcasts, like "Best Picture" and "Infinity Podcast," were promoted, and social media handles shared for engaging discussions. Teasing upcoming topics, they encouraged subscribing and reviewing podcasts like "Screen Snark" on iTunes or certainpov.com for updates.

●      In conclusion, a call-to-action highlighted interactive banter among podcast hosts. Despite occasional disagreements, camaraderie was evident. Post-credits banter showcased fun interactions, promoting a lively and engaging podcast community.

Outline:

●      Chapter 1: Introduction and Podcast Overview (00:09 - 04:48)

●      00:09: Podcast introduction and subscribing instructions.

●      01:09: Discussion on accent variations in the movie.

●      04:46: Mention of the complexity of the movie’s storyline.

●      Chapter 2: Initial Movie Analysis and Plot Setup (07:31 - 17:52)

●      07:31: Notable aspects of the movie's early scenes.

●      17:26: Emphasis on effective screenwriting and foreshadowing in the movie.

●      Chapter 3: Character Development and Story Progression (18:57 - 39:00)

●      18:57: Various character arcs and their motivations discussed.

●      39:00: Notable elements regarding character evolution and plot advancement.

●      Chapter 4: Critique and Proposed Edits (42:04 - 1:05:06)

●      42:04: Comparison of notes from different viewings.

●      1:00:16: Suggestions for enhancing certain scenes and character interactions.

●      1:05:06: Final thoughts on improvements and areas for adjustment.

●      Chapter 5: Podcast Promotions and Future Episodes (1:17:02 - 1:21:51)

●      1:17:02: Mention of upcoming podcast episodes and collaborations.

●      1:21:09: Teaser for the next episode on Highlander two, the quickening.

●      1:21:26: Closing remarks and subscribing instructions for the podcast.

Action items:

●      **Laura Linney**

●      Prepare everything from start to finish (41:17)

●      Have things that you love and don't like, including smoking a cigarette (13:31)

●      Give Laura Linney's character more depth and importance through expanded sequences (53:00)

●      Add a memento or engagement ring for Laura Linney's character to add depth to her past with Charles (57:16)

●      **Ernie Hudson**

●      Assess issues and lead the group out when danger arises (27:26)

●      Support Laura Linney's character without talking down to her or doubting her capabilities (29:01)

●      Include an exchange between Ernie Hudson and Tim Curry about the legends surrounding their adventure space, adding intrigue and backstory (57:27)

●      **Joey Pantiglioni**

●      Create fun moments with charged energy in his scenes as Eddie Ventro (34:20)

●      **Scott**

●      Expand the beginning to establish the lore for those gorillas (50:53)

●      Create a temple escape sequence in the opening of the film involving credible explorers (51:19)

●      Establish a sense of dread about what's coming by hinting at guards and threats early on (52:00)

●      **Sam**

●      Add a memento or engagement ring for Laura Linney's character to add depth to her past with Charles (57:16)

●      Include an exchange between Ernie Hudson and Tim Curry about the legends surrounding their adventure space, adding intrigue and backstory (57:27)

●      **Rachel**

●      Maintain the initial buildup of the film but suggest a nice interaction between Ernie Hudson and Tim Curry regarding legends around their location, enhancing character dynamics (58:07)

Notes:

●      🔑 **Podcast Content**

●      **Discussion on accent flexes in the movie**

●      **Importance of character interactions**

●      **Sign language scene with apes praised**

●      **Pitch feedback and suggestions for improvement**

●      **Role of main focal point characters highlighted**

●      🎬 **Movie Editing Suggestions**

●      **Proposed edits in the middle of the film**

●      **Focus on character development and interactions**

●      **Suggested changes to final scene for brevity**

●      🤝 **Collaboration and Feedback**

●      **Encouragement for engaging dialogues and perspectives**

●      **Positive feedback on podcast content and topics**

●      **Acknowledgment of different creative notes and viewpoints**