Living up to the incredible original Planet of the Apes film was a Gorilla-ian task that no lower budget sequel was up to, let alone the one that was still working out the kinks. Sam Perez joins Case and Sam for a look Beneath The Planet of The Apes!

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Meeting summary:

●      Meeting 149 focused on a detailed critique and discussion of the sequel "Beneath the Planet of the Apes", covering aspects such as character dynamics, visual and sound design, script improvements, alternative storylines and endings, and franchise impact. Key points included disappointment with the sequel, suggestions for improving ape society and mutant dynamics, and detailed pitches for revising the movie. Action items assigned included analyzing the impact of Taylor's existence on ape society, developing a cohesive motivation for the conflict, and revising the opening sequence for a somber tone. The meeting concluded with final thoughts, participant plugs, and a teaser for the next episode.

Notes:

●      🎬 Introduction and Context (00:00 - 09:49)

●      Discussion about the Planet of the Apes franchise and its sequels.

●      Focus on the first sequel, Beneath the Planet of the Apes.

●      Introduction of guests and their background.

●      📉 Initial Reactions and Critique (09:49 - 19:31)

●      General disappointment with the sequel.

●      Discussion on the movie's pacing and lack of coherent themes.

●      Comparison with the original movie's success and impact.

●      🦧 Ape Society and Taylor's Impact (19:31 - 30:05)

●      Discussion on the lack of consequences of Taylor's existence.

●      Ideas on how ape society should have evolved post-Taylor.

●      Suggestions for improving the depiction of ape society.

●      💣 Mutant Society and Conflict (30:05 - 41:25)

●      Introduction of the mutant cult and their dynamics.

●      Critique of the mutants' motivations and actions.

●      Suggestions for making the mutant society more cohesive and impactful.

●      🎭 Character Dynamics and Development (41:25 - 49:57)

●      Discussion on Brent's character and his role.

●      Suggestions for giving Nova more agency.

●      Ideas for improving character interactions and motivations.

●      🎨 Visual and Sound Design (49:57 - 59:33)

●      Critique of the movie's special effects and makeup.

●      Discussion on the sound design, particularly in the mutant scenes.

●      Suggestions for improving the visual and auditory elements.

●      📜 Script and Plot Improvements (59:34 - 01:07:06)

●      Ideas for revising the script to enhance the story.

●      Suggestions for better pacing and plot structure.

●      Discussion on potential new scenes and sequences.

●      🔄 Alternative Storylines and Endings (01:07:07 - 01:19:11)

●      Proposals for different storylines and character arcs.

●      Discussion on alternative endings and their impact.

●      Ideas for making the movie's themes more coherent.

●      📝 Detailed Pitches and Revisions (01:19:11 - 01:30:56)

●      Sam Perez's pitch for revising the movie.

●      Sam Alasea's pitch for revising the movie.

●      Case Aiken's pitch for revising the movie.

●      📊 Ranking and Comparisons (01:30:56 - 01:43:28)

●      Comparison of Beneath the Planet of the Apes with other sequels.

●      Discussion on the ranking of the movies in the franchise.

●      Final thoughts on the movie's place in the series.

●      🎥 Franchise Impact and Legacy (01:43:28 - 01:54:46)

●      Discussion on the movie's impact on the franchise.

●      Reflection on the importance of the sequels.

●      Thoughts on the future of the Planet of the Apes series.

●      🔚 Conclusion and Wrap-Up (01:54:47 - 02:14:22)

●      Final thoughts and summary of the discussion.

●      Plugs and where to find the participants online.

●      Teaser for the next episode.

Transcription

00:00
Confused but engaged is a good description for this one, especially.

00:04
Honestly, I feel kind of. I feel kind of bad, though, that this is the movie that we made you revisit, because I feel like it.

00:10
Was funny in your intro. It was funny in your intro. Like, God, we're finally done with the good ones. Now let's get this bad one. Hey, Sam's here.

00:22
Welcome to certain POV's, another pass podcast with case and Sam, where we take another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. Let's see how we could have fixed them. Hey, everyone. Welcome to another past podcast. I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my coast, Sam Alasea.

00:40
Hi.

00:41
And today we are continuing our conversation about the planet of the Apes franchise. And so we are moving on to the first sequel in this franchise, the bad one. The one that.

00:55
The one we've all been dreading.

00:57
Yeah. The one we've been worried about, but at the same time, like, kind of happy about because the last couple were like, I like this movie. And now that we're firmly in one that we're not as comfortable with. So today we're talking about beneath the planet of the apes. And for that conversation, we are joined by Sam Perez.

01:12
Hello. We need two sams for this one.

01:14
Yes.

01:15
That's the only way to remedy how terrible this movie is. You need your support. Sam's side by side, flanking you to march into this, did you? To the underground world beneath the planet of thieves.

01:31
All right, now, Sam Perez, I'm going to have to say last names on this one because otherwise I'm going to go insane. We found that out when we did the Sam Wilson episode. Sam Perez, this is your first time actually being on an aired episode of another pass because we did do a secret episode that did not make the cut.

01:48
It was too hot for tv.

01:50
Yes. Or too long for a rational thought and also not complete enough of a conversation.

01:58
That's one way to smell it.

02:00
Yeah, yeah. So listeners are not familiar with who you are. So who are you?

02:04
Hi. Well, my name is Sam Farez. I don't have a huge, like, online presence, so I imagine there's not a whole lot of listeners that will have heard of me. I'm just kind of a friend with some thoughts that gets invited to talk about things sometimes. But by day, I do stuffy finance work. I'm an actuary. I do math for insurance companies. By night, I try to balance the aggressive norminess of that career with fun nerd stuff. I do anime conventions. I do cosplay. I hop on podcasts, talk about nerd things. I've been on, like, some Bible podcasts a few times, so I just kind of bounce all over the Internet doing fun nerd stuff. So that's me.

02:42
Yeah. Well, and the certain POV listeners will recognize you from an episode of fun and game sidequests, at least.

02:49
Yes, yes. I've done a couple side quest episodes, and I've been on the Mass Effect podcast. It's been a while.

02:55
Reignite.

02:56
Yes, reignite.

02:58
And you've been an active member of our discord community, so people who are in the know you, but, yeah, just happy to have you on for an episode that will actually make the cut.

03:08
Yeah, thanks for having me. This was an interesting movie to go back to.

03:14
Yeah. So, Sam Perez, what is your association with the Planet of the Apes franchise?

03:19
So I was. I've not generally been, like, super into them. I'm not, like, a planet of the Apes fan or anything in particular, but I have vivid memories of watching random entries in this series with my dad when I was pretty young because, like, my dad, like, I would just kind of sit down with him and watch whatever he was watching. And I know I've seen a couple of the originals, watched the Tim Burton movies with him, and then we watched the newer prequels together. And so the early ones are associated with me being very young and confused and, like, really enraptured by some of the weird imagery, but not really knowing what was going on. And those are, like. Those are the main memories I have with those. And so I've always, you know, I've always generally liked them.

04:08
I've not been super into them, but they are. They just vivid memories of being confused but engaged in the living room with my dad.

04:16
Confused but engaged is a good description for this one, especially.

04:20
Honestly, I feel kind of. I feel kind of bad, though, that this is the movie that we made you revisit, because I feel like it.

04:26
Was funny in your intro. It was funny, your intro, like, God, we're finally done with the good ones now. Let's get this bad one. Hey, Sam's here.

04:36
It's like, this is this one. Like, befuddlement is definitely part of the game. There's just so much that is. There's a lot of imagery, and they are trying to say stuff, but out of all of the movies, this is the movie where I feel like they just. It's whispers and nothing actually really gets said, and it's so confused.

05:02
Yeah, no, there is one of my notes. Like, one of the initial notes I took at the end of my first watch, I was like, there is a lot happening here, but also surprisingly little happening here.

05:13
Yeah, well, and I think a big part of that is the limitation of this. Of the movie at the time and the budget and all that, because, like, my hot take rewatching this movie is. This is the one that I would most want to have remade with modern special effects now. Yeah, that's it. It's because we've gotten the circus ones already. So, like, we did, you know, like, now that we've done, effectively, conquest and we've done battle remade in. In the three part circus trilogy, like, I'd love to see this one next. Like, a real.

05:39
You didn't like the lightning and the firefights?

05:42
The fire was better than the lightning. Like, the fire was still obviously. The fire was still obviously just, you know, just like, you know, a cartoon that they put in front of there, but at least, like, I don't know, it stylistically got the point across. The lightning, not so much the.

05:56
The fire and lightning as illusions. And having shitty special effects honestly works better for me. The biggest area is that we actually get to see a lot of guerrilla brutality in this movie. And how fucking terrifying it would it be if it was actually gorillas instead of, obviously people?

06:11
Right. I like the effects wise. Early on, when he was first getting into the forbidden zone, there was that weird contrast between, like, a cheesy but kind of okay fire effect, the worst lightning effect I've ever seen in my life, and then a really badass fissure splitting open in the ground, actually really cool, terrifying way. I was like, all right, well, we see the effect. They got the budget for this one.

06:35
Yeah. Or the stock footage that they're able to.

06:37
Right.

06:37
Yeah, yeah.

06:39
But after my first watch through going, like, I watched it and then reading the history of it made a lot click. It's like, okay. Like, the. Like, in the context of it happening where the first planet of the apes basically saved fox from bankruptcy because it made a gajillion dollars. And then. So they got, you know, they were. They were aggressive going forward. We're almost in bankruptcy again because, hello, Dolly and Tora. Toratora bombed and lost a bunch of money. They're like, well, the ape saved us the first time. Let's get some apes back and do it again. And then, you know, kind of. So this kind of a quick, kind of desperate. Like, we need more ape money, and no one, you know, huge chunks of the original movie, not wanting to be involved, not able to be involved.

07:24
You know, four different spec scripts floating around. They finally get some people to do this script. Everyone hates the script and is changing it. Like it all clicks. Like, okay, I see what's happening here, right?

07:34
It's an understandable train wreck. And honestly, it's a tall order just following up the first movie in the first place. Like, the fact that we got good sequels after this. Impressive. But it's also because they kind of like, let's set the whole thing on fire. And then when they wanted to do more, pretty much they always have to reinvent it after this one.

07:53
Right.

07:54
So I don't know. From scratch. I'm not sure where I would, like, how I would write the sequel from. From looking at where, what we got and, like, what some of the ideas were. I have a better thought on that one, and we'll get to that when we get pitches. But, like, man, it was a tall order making this movie, especially when Charlton Heston didn't want to come back at all.

08:13
Yeah, yeah.

08:13
And they had to appeal to, like, his honor to get him back because, like, the first one was his baby. Like, he pitched it, he marketed it. He was all in on it, and then he didn't want to do another one. He's like, I am done. Like, we did a good job, and he just wasn't gonna be involved. But I saw that, like, the producer went and had to be like, look, man, it's not gonna happen without you. We need you. The first one was your baby. Don't let it die. And just kind of, like, guilted him into it almost, and he was like, all right, fine. I will be. I will be in it. You get three days of filming. I'm giving all the money to charity, and I have to die in it. So you cannot make me do this again.

08:47
You could just. You could feel that. You could feel that in the movie, right?

08:52
Especially considering that, like, the first, like, they have to use so much of the first movie's ending at the beginning of this movie just to, like, have his, like, appearance time actually even feel like it's real. Yeah.

09:02
And, like, I get that's, like, a little bit of flashback at the beginning and, like, starting it literally, like, 2 seconds after the end of the last movie one. Like, sequels weren't as big a thing then, and so, like, we didn't have, like, what does a good movie sequel look like? And I kind of get it because, like, people didn't have home videos, and so you need a little bit more like last time on Planet of the Apes than you do. Than you do nowadays. But still, like, it's like almost five minutes. The first five minutes are just playing stuff from the last movie. I'm like, this is a little egregious.

09:33
Yeah, it's excessive.

09:35
Yeah. But then, on the other hand, I actually, like, found myself that was excessive. But then the opening, which is just kind of long shots of establishing shots over opening credits. I watched the first one and this one back to back, and I had a moment of like, man, I kind of missed this. Like, let's just have opening credits and just drink atmosphere for a second. When I watch older movies, I was like, there's some pacing things that we've kind of just let go to the wayside that I kind of missed. There's a lot of still some of those long shots in this movie. There's the opening credits, just scenes of him getting on a horse or something that just linger longer than we do nowadays and just when it's working feels grounded. And I appreciated several of these moments.

10:24
Yeah, there's some interesting stuff going on, at least in terms of the pacing of this movie. I don't hate the fact that we open with shots from the beginning. It's just a lot from the first movie. Compare that within all the sequels, where there's just tons of expositional dialogue just to catch everyone else up. The big joke about conquest is that Ricardo Montauban spends five minutes being like. And of course, you know that this is what happened next. And then this is what happened to a character that definitely knows all this stuff.

10:52
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, for as awkward as it was, I did, you know, I. I made my list. I made all my notes, my first, my couple of watches, and I kind of sorted everything into, like, this is what works for me. This is what doesn't work for me. This is. I'm just. This is. These are things that I'm confused about. And for my initial first impression, my this works for me section is longer than I expected it to be. Like, there's a lot of cool moments and stumbling into some cool ideas that they just didn't have the time and I think self awareness to actually dig into because there's a lot of, like we said, there's a lot of ideas in here that just kind of don't go anywhere, but there's interesting imagery. Right.

11:36
And so, like, you're swinging for the fences on a lot of things. Like, all right, we're doing Vietnam, we're doing nuclear war, we're doing, you know, nuclear deterrence. We're doing a lot of, we're doing a lot of things. We're doing racism, comparing it to human culture.

11:52
Christoph yeah.

11:56
Yeah. Rise of a military power with no logic. And that's the thing. It's like there's so much. There's actually boatloads of stuff in this movie, but they never really complete a thought. It feels like you're almost left hanging on all these different thoughts that they have and it's like, oh, my God. Yes. There's like. It's almost like a theocracy, but is it like. And there's like, definitely like a, like a struggle between, like, orangutan and gorilla and might. But, like, it's so it's just whispered. It's just whispered in the background. Just hints of that. But we're never going to complete that. We're never going to.

12:35
Right. I mean, you can feel. You can, you can feel the corporate demand for. All right. When you plant of the apes two, it needs to be as big and exciting and earth shaking as the first one. So we need a bigger twist and we need more weirder set pieces. And so, like, the need for that, I think, kind of stopped them from what I think it would probably be the artistically better, you know, choice of now let's do, like, let's spend more time with the, like, thematic implications of how the first one ended. What, you know, that's not going to get big, exciting twists that are going to have people chatting.

13:11
Yeah. I mean, then there is the big twist at the very end of this movie, which is just right. Everyone saying, hey, we're done making these, right? Because, like, everyone's so burned out at this point where they just. In the world, the very end of the movie.

13:24
Right. Which, like, that's a hell of a choice, and I kind of dig it. And, like, for doing a. So for a movie that at least is for, like, it's hard to pin down anything it's actually trying to be about other than just the incredibly on the nose nuclear war and Vietnam kind of to actually go, the completely cynical ending of, nope, this planet does not deserve to thrive because that's Heston's character following up on his statement earlier where he said, we should have killed them all, every single one of these apes, and then just does it. And like, this is you. Like, that's the conclusion we don't deserve to live. Ballsy, ballsy choice for the end of your movie. And then I just. You have to love that. It is the most irreversible possible. This franchise is dead.

14:16
Decision to then have infinite more.

14:21
Right?

14:21
Yeah. To then be reversed like someone's, like, no, reverse.

14:25
Oh, yeah. Oops. Actually, we met more sequels than almost any movie ever.

14:30
We will be restarting the timeline somewhere else.

14:33
Yeah. Cause there's seven sequels after, right?

14:36
Yeah.

14:37
And three that are like, true sequels.

14:39
The Sci-Fi version of Sherlock Holmes going over the waterfall.

14:43
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is basically that where it's just like, nope, we have to be done. We have to be done. And then this movie. So despite the fact that this movie is considered, like, the worst or tied for the worst because, you know, battle also was dealing with the micro budget and is also, you know, doesn't really live up to all the potential that it had, but it also had an even smaller budget. So it's understandable. Like, this one was a commercial success. Like, it was a big enough success that famously the notes from the producers were like, apes exist. Sequel required.

15:19
Yeah, sorry. Yeah. It made six times its budget back. We're getting more of these.

15:25
Exactly. And there's cool stuff going on. Like, I like the mutant cult. I think there's some issues with how it all works, but I like the idea of, like. Yeah, we got have this, like, crazy. Like, this crazy bomb that's gonna destroy everything and they're all worshiping it and they're fucked up by it like that. I think that's all a cool idea and I like that. So there's an interesting juxtaposition of, like, this movie. We get a bit more of, like, the ape faith from the. From the first one. You know, it's kind of building on what was dropped in there. And it has this very, like, jewish quality to it, specifically with, like, lawgiver kind of feeling like a Moses type figure in their relationships.

16:03
Like, there's a lot of, like, it feels more like that sort of sect of monotheism versus then the. The mutants have, like, this very explicitly, like, high church catholic kind of style to them all, like, worshipping this bomb and, like, having, like, that. You know, like, they. They have verbatim lines from, like, churches.

16:23
Yeah. So, I mean, that's a little bit less how I took it. I see less. I mean, there is. There is. In the. In the ape faith, there's a lot more of the. That sort of kind of manifest destiny sort of use of things. And they have, you know, I guess, you know, the lawgiver being kind of a Moses stand in, but the way they're using it and, like, the. The way the tenants are done, the way that it. What it says about apes, what it says about other life forms, what it says about the land, is it. Both of them seem to be kind of different facets.

17:03
Facets of just different ways Christianity manifests because, like, it is, you know, it is from the quotes that, like, you know, the early colonists like to use to justify the colonialism, but it's still much more in that vein of, you know, this is, you know, we are the. Yeah, the manifest destiny sort of. Sort of vibe of like it's in the. In the way it's being used. It's still pretty firmly in the. You know, this is the. The early american Christianity view. Like, use. Use of the religion.

17:35
Yeah, man, this movie, it's so, like, just going. So let's.

17:40
Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

17:41
I think we need to, like, frame this discussion. Yeah, there's so many, like, weird things. And also, like, it is also a movie where, like, not really that much actually happens.

17:47
Right.

17:48
Like, it was the other sort of weird part. So let's talk about, like, how they got around the whole. No Charlton Heston thing. Like, they didn't have Taylor, so they introduced Brent. So we get James Franciscus playing basically, like, what everyone calls sort of, like, your, like, dollar store version of Charlton Heston. Like, being a character who looks so much like him thrust into such a similar role, riding around with Nova. Like, it's. You know, we're gonna play out a bunch of those same beats. And I don't know what you would do necessarily, because I think that the perception was like, okay, well, we need a human from the 20th century to be the audience surrogate in this situation, and we don't have Charlton Heston to be this character. How do we kind of go through that all? And it's like, all right, sure.

18:31
It is weird that they chose to have someone who is so close looking.

18:35
I know.

18:36
It's so weird. It's just so weird. And his delivery's not exact. Right. It's not like he's super Heston, but, like, there are some lines where it's just, like, you could tell they were like, you know, we need this to be a little. We need this to be a little Heston. So it was. It's weird. It's weird. That's why. And I feel bad, because no one deserves to be called the dollar store. Charlton Heston. Like, no one deserves that, and he certainly did not deserve that. But that is still a. Partially because he looks just so much like him. Like, if they had just gone with someone that looked slightly differently, maybe it would have been. Maybe. Maybe he'd be just a standard instead of a dollar store version.

19:15
Yeah. Because when it was. When it was, like, when the movie was, like, losing me the most is because, like, the first half of the movie is just, let's do the last movie again. But kind of worse. Yeah, because it's just.

19:25
They got to do it kind of worse.

19:26
Yeah, because they got to do it faster so they can do the rest of the movie afterwards. And also, we've seen it already. When it did work was when he was, for me, was when he was doing, like, different reactions to things. Like, because we have the scene when you go, like, when he's in the subway and, like, also having the first revelation that, oh, this is Earth. And it is like, it's a redundant scene. It kind of has to be. We've had this moment already. But I, like, I enjoyed his take on it. He played it, you know, understated. He played it, like, as just, you know, you tell him reflecting on the state of the world when he left, you know, and just kind of doing the, God, we finally did it, didn't we? Like it?

20:05
Just, I liked his different take on it. And I feel like if you let him do more of that, the first half of the movie would have been less exhausting. And if you got a guy that didn't look like Charlton Heston and let at least him reacted differently than Charlton Heston to things, it would have felt less, just excruciatingly slow to just watch a dollar store movie of the first movie again.

20:28
Right.

20:28
Yeah. And it's. And it made more excruciating because you're basically repeating it. And that's like, I mean, it's like 50 minutes before you actually get to the music. And this is not a long movie. All of these movies are notoriously short films. So I've basically been going through, like, the beats that I already went through in the first movie, but faster, like, truncated so that I can get to the second half, which is actually really this second movie.

20:56
Right.

20:56
Because it's actually a different movie. Right. But now I really, like, only have about 40 minutes to explore whatever themes are going to be introduced in this half that will make things different. And it's really interesting, too. And it's also interesting that, like, there's, like, in this first half of the film, there's just the assumptions. And again, this is partially because they are trying to remind everyone what's happening and also because they're trying to. And a lot of sequels have this issue where they're trying to kind of relive the glory of the first. And. But, like, the fact that Brent's reactions fall in similar line with kind of what's happening in the first. Like, humans are different. Like, people would have different reactions. Like, and there are certain things that he just accepts, like, right away, like, he's just like, yeah, okay, well, that.

21:59
That's what's happening. You know? Like, and you could say, well, he's no straw. He's adaptable. No, no. There needs to be a little more pushback. And I understand that we have a limit of time, but then maybe, like, have him get to that forbidden zone a little bit sooner, you know, have him hunted by the gorillas a little bit sooner. Have Nova have a little more agency, and maybe she saves him. I mean, just throwing things out there, you know, like, just because someone is mute doesn't mean they don't have the capability.

22:28
And I thought they were gonna. When I. When it first started, I thought they were gonna deliberately do a little more of that because we have his. His skipper's dying scene at the beginning, and the skipper has a moment of, like, kind of actually starting to grapple with the scale of time that just happened. You know, he has, like, oh, God, everyone I know is dead. Everything's gone. Everything's. He has a mind. And there wasn't, and there wasn't a lot of that in the first movie. That was, that was the thing that they just kind of accepted and moved on with. And so I was like, okay, cool. So are we just at least getting different perspective on this experience and kinda. But not really.

23:00
Yeah. Although that is also an opportunity for them to kind of rewrite what was going on in terms of the time dilation, because the first one, it's just we're. We're traveling at light speed. It's gonna be a thousand years. We can't help it. Like, there's, like, that's just the travel time.

23:15
Yeah.

23:15
This one, it's like we took an earth reading of, like, what? What, how much time we had traveled through, as if it's like a time portal. And that becomes then the way that we get a sequel after that. Like, each of these movies kind of rewrites the one beforehand and in this weird way to, like, make a sequel. It's like, do you kind of remember the previous movie? Well, we're gonna pick up from there. Yeah, like, don't actually remember anything. Don't worry. The year is different. Like, the. The year, he says, is not the year that they say in the first movie. It's, like, 20 years early. It's like, 39 55 instead of, like, 39 78.

23:46
I also wonder. I also wonder if that's part of the consequence of, like, we don't have home video yet, so. Sure. You guys don't remember what year it was, right.

23:54
Although that would be. Seemed to be one where you just, like, just get it right. Like, right. You could watch the original movie.

24:02
I mean, or at least get the script. I'm sure someone has a copy of this.

24:06
Yeah. I wonder if that was what changed.

24:09
Maybe.

24:10
Like, if that. If it was 55 in the original script, if they change it for the movie or something.

24:14
Oh, maybe.

24:14
Oh, maybe.

24:16
But either way, that's how we start changing this movie, from being about the inevitable consequences of man's downfall and being replaced by apes and then becomes like, there's all this time travel and weird shit and also still intelligent humans living in ruins, worshipping bombs and all that.

24:33
I mean, what is a human to do when they live underground as mutant in the old cathedral of the time before?

24:41
Yeah. So one thing that kind of bums me about this movie is that while we introduced General Ursus as this, like, antagonist kind of character, and I think that the idea of this kind of military, like, crazy person, like, trying, you know, trying to rally his troops and whatnot, is. Is cool. I don't think they do enough to really sort of establish, like, the paradigm shift that Taylor presented in the first movie. I feel like this movie is lacking consequences of the. The existence of Taylor, because it's like, oh, well, now there's, like, this forbidden zone, and also ape don't kill Ape, which means that all their wars have been not against ape. Like, that's the thing that they reiterated as a big rule and that Ursus is totally fine with. It's not like.

25:21
It's not like when we get to Aldo in battle, where he's, like, he violates the ape not kill ape rule. That thing strikes me as interesting because it's like, this. Like, Taylor in the first movie should be the catalyst for why they're building up so much. And it's not really that. It's just, oh, there's something scary out beyond.

25:38
Yeah, yeah, that's. Yeah. So in my. I have this split in my notes of things that work and things that don't work. I like the. I like the conceit that the big thing happening in the ape city is that we just kind of have to go to the forbidden zone now. And that makes problem for the dogma we want, because we don't want the society to learn what's in the forbidden zone. But there is famine. There is conflict. There is something that's making us get out there. And so, like, that. And that conflict of, like, the military and just kind of, like, you know, like, the city needs the forbidden zone, and the scientists and the religion don't want people to go when, like, just that the conflict itself is good, and I like it. The scene.

26:18
The scene where they're in the bathhouse talking about it is one of my favorite scenes. That's just, like, that aesthetic. Yeah, that aesthetic is neat. Like, okay, this is kind of what I envisioned in a planet of the ape sequel. Like, we're getting more, you know, like, dealing with the consequences of ape society.

26:35
Hell, they're being more apes because they're naked, and so they're all. They're all right. Like, it looks like an actual ape costume.

26:41
I was worried about how badly those smelled, like, after all of that water. I'm sorry. Like, just.

26:48
But, yeah, but so the expansion as. The expansion into forbidden zone as a war, I think, kind of sucked because they just really wanted it to be like, oh, let's do, like, let's do Vietnam. The last one preyed on some of the, you know, some of the tensions that we're feeling in society. Let's just really on the nose play into tensions now. And so they need military things. So it has to be the Vietnam war, but it's not. It's not really clear why a war is happening, because, you know, the only other intelligent thing they've ever introduced us to is humans, which they treat mostly like animals. You catch them with nets on ropes, you don't really go to war with them. And so just how quickly they got from we're going to war.

27:29
With the weird forbidden zone and society understanding what a war means, enough to protest it the same way that a Vietnam war protester was, there's just a lot missing there. And when his language is more manifest destiny, I think it's working better. And when it's just a very naked stand in for Vietnam, you didn't get their society there fast enough for me to actually believe anything that's happening.

27:57
Yeah, the chimp protester scene is, like, my note for that is just that, God, this is so on the nose, and it's. I think everyone watching it is just like. Like, I'm not putting down protesters. I am putting down depicting them in this movie the way they did, because I couldn't help but roll my eyes. Like, it's just like, oh, man, come on. Like, what's the point? Like, what's the point for either side? You know? It's not like, oh, hey, we're, you know, these are people. We're not treating them like humans or rather like apes and whatnot. We're not treating, like, this, like, world that's out there with any kind of dignity and respect, and we're just being, you know, like a jingoistic, like, expansionist parasite. There's none of that really supported for either side.

28:38
Yeah. Yeah. Because it's not clear what the ape culture really thought was in the forbidden zone and how they would understand an expansion into it. Like, when I watched the first one, again, my understanding of the forbidden zone was something more like the village of just like, oh, it's the, you know, it's the big creepy woods that kill you. Don't go in there. They're kind of cursed. And so the fact that we're going into there would produce anti war protests and more and not sort of, like, religious, almost like blasphemy protests. Like, we can't go. We are bringing God's wrath upon us if we go into the forbidden zone. Like, that would be the protest I'd expect from how the first movie sets it up. But they just really needed the on the nose commentary, and so they just made it Vietnam.

29:21
Yeah. No, I totally, absolutely agree. I mean, like, I think that reaction was very surprising to me. I think also, like, later on, and this is just to me, like, things that I'm like, why would the character do this later on when Brent is in the presence of the humans and they're like, tell us what the apes are planning, and he, like, for some reason doesn't tell them. And I'm like, why does he have, like, why would he have loyalty to them? Like, I don't understand. Like, if it were me, right? And I'm like, in a world, I'd be like, I actually don't know. But I did overhear them saying that maybe they'd come over here. I am totally not a spy, but, you know, I just jumped in out of time. So sorry. Like, I would just. I'd be spilling it all.

30:06
I'd be. Especially because they're human and, like, or, like, seemingly to him. Right. He hasn't seen their true faces. They look like people he's left behind, even though they're wearing weird stuff and praying and, you know, they talk telepathically, but for the most part, he would identify more with them. So I never understand why he's so guarded about it, as if he's protecting military secrets. Like, it's. And it's not even like he knew, like, Zira and, you know, any of the other apes or anyone like, the chimpanzees well enough to want to protect them. Like, if it was Taylor, then maybe you could see him being, like, a little bit skeptical because he's known, like. Like, he's been in their society, he escaped from their society, and, like, maybe he's got more of a bearing.

30:59
Yeah. Like, there. There you can believe. There you can believe there's an ape he doesn't want killed.

31:04
Right?

31:04
Like, I mean, Brent did have positive react, like a positive relationship with Zoom.

31:09
But isn't it to, like, not rat everything, right?

31:12
Yeah. To not just say there's an army on the way?

31:15
Well, counterpoint, they also did just try to psychically have him murder Nova right before that. So, like, there's also.

31:22
He doesn't like them either. Like, you, like. Like, yeah, maybe. And maybe that. Maybe. Maybe just. That's the fix. Like, you know, maybe they're like, hey, what are the apes doing? And maybe his answer is, like, you just tried to kill me. Go fuck yourselves. You know? Like, that's. That's a fine answer, but I. That was a note that I had in. In mind, too, was just like, I don't understand the conflict here. Like, what do these people want? What did the apes actually want? Like, that's kind of. That's when the novelty of the imagery and kind of the cool atmospheres wore off. There's just kind of, like, I don't actually understand the conflict that I'm witnessing and kind of what anybody's motivations are in this. That's where, like, they had a bunch of, like, provocative image to image, cool decisions, but didn't.

32:05
I don't think they knew what the story was.

32:07
Right. Yeah.

32:08
I mean, honestly, the bomb cult, I think, is probably the best term for them, because I feel like calling them mutants is not necessarily kind or.

32:19
And kind of burying the lead.

32:21
Yeah. But the bum cult, you know, honestly, I also do not get them to be honest with you. Like, I have some issues. Like, I know you can make some kind of argument that they would be very cautious and very protective. Of their space. I do also, like, I do actually love that they think that they're better because they only force other people to hurt people for them, which I think is, like, really interesting and very cool. But I will be honest with you. Like, I also do not fully understand why immediately they have Brent try to kill Nova. Like, I do not. Like, there is no conversation. It's just, like, these two humans. And I know that they kind of, like, oh, are you a spy? But the understanding should be right that those kinds of humans are very primitive.

33:23
And so I would feel like. Like, I just don't understand why they assume intelligence or anything else or the need to, like, get rid of them completely. Are they scouts? Do they think that they're eligible to be scouts? Knowing how the apes treat humans? Like, I just feel like there's a lot. And I felt that scene because I did not completely understand why they would do right off the bat was gratuitous.

33:50
Yeah, I mean. I mean, I understood it as just, they are very secretive and isolationists, and if you showing up means, you know, too much, and so you're out. Like, that's kind of how I saw it. Like, you know, there's no. They don't seem to have any motivation to parlay with anybody. No one needs to know they're there. All of their, you know, technology, their illusions, like, it is about don't come in here. And, like, they don't want anyone to know they're there. And so if someone's in there, that's not one of them. They know they're there. They have to be gone. And, like, that's how. That's how I saw just extreme isolationism. And there's no, like, no real reason to parlay with anybody.

34:27
Yeah, but they're also psychic. Like, they also, theoretically would be able to read Brent's mind and also Taylor's mind. Like, they already have him captured, and they would at least know that, like, maybe not time travel per se, but, like, that they're beings from the past who are here and that things are different now. Because I feel like when we get to the end of this movie, we've got the actual conflict that occurs is that the apes show up and they're fighting the mutants, and that, theoretically, is the main fight that's occurring. And then we've got two humans from the past kind of operating. And I feel like we should have had more of a representation of the primitive people of this time as well. Like, that should have been a third faction there, right? Won't get to that in pitches.

35:09
But, but, like, they're like, the thing is, it's just the apes kind of just arrive, and they're already, like, at war with these mutants, and yet neither of them have ever really seen each other before. The apes are still shocked to see that there's talking people, and they're shocked, and they're not, like, galvanized again by, like, Taylor's existence beforehand to be like, oh, humans have actually. Are actually able to talk out there. We have to go fight them. Like, they don't have that idea when they're going out.

35:32
Right? And you think they'd go there because at the beginning, they start with that quote from the ape scripture. You know, like, oh, the intelligent humans are demons. The uplifted humans kill for sport. They take their brother's land. Don't let them breed. Like, there should be, like, there's a good setup for, like, we are on a holy crusade to wipe out the, you know, to wipe out this demonic presence, but you just don't see the apes, like, grapple with that at all. And there's no, you know, there's no. There's, like, there's no shock at what they are doing and what they have found, you know, because, like, the, you know, both Taylor and Brent have their moments of, like, oh, wow, this is earth. We did it. I understand what's happening.

36:12
The apes should also kind of be having some existential crises when they're in an advanced human civilization, which is not possible according to their scriptures. You know, the way that most of the rank and file have been taught.

36:23
Yeah. Especially the guerrillas, who were always presented as the ones who were the most indoctrinated without any sort of intellectual approach to it all. Like, you know, they've been put into subservient or, at best, militaristic leadership roles. Like, they're not being allowed to function as intellectuals in their society and have basically just been forced to adopt, like, all of the scripture as gospel. Whereas, like, the orangutans at least, like, clearly understand that there is, like, shit that they're covering up and that they're supposed to interpret and manipulate everyone with it.

36:53
Right. And they hint at it a little bit, which is what makes it frustrating, because, like, they show them going through, like, destroying the statues, and they're doing that kind of, like, spanish inquisition, you know, purging of the idolatrous things. There's moments in this movie where they understand why this is cool, and then they forget.

37:14
Yeah, I think the thing is that there's so many amazing themes here, and I think that a couple of themes they may not have been ready to really address, because that feels like a lot of, like, christian colonialism. And I don't know if 19.

37:33
Yeah, it depends.

37:35
America was ready.

37:36
Yeah, I don't. Yeah, I don't. I, like. I don't know the writers, you know, the director that well, so I don't know if it's. Yeah, just like, doesn't have the artistic chops to wrestle with this, or it's maybe just like, they got to shit this thing out with half the budget they expected and not enough. A bunch of time redoing the script as they're filming. So, like, this could just be time because they're like, there seems to be people in the writing and in this movie that get theme that, like, that, you know, that gets that this is a, you know, a christian nationalist allegory in a lot of ways and the sort of, you know, religious fundamentalism that made us excuse the atrocities we used to set the country up. Like, there's people in the writing room that get this.

38:14
They just, you know, it just doesn't get to come to the front. And I don't know how much of that is talent and how much of that is. The studio is very specific about a thing that needs to make us $20 million.

38:25
Yeah, yeah. And I think you're. You said something like, really correct. Because I think the other movies, even, especially the movies that follow this movie, I would say that no one. No one would ever accuse them of being subtle. They are very heavy handed with their messages.

38:50
Wait, wait. The movie that ends with the city on fire and a chimpanzee screaming, this is the beginning of the planet of the apes.

38:55
Yeah, yeah. So there's no subtlety. It's not that this franchise is afraid to take, like, basically, look, racism or slavery or any of the multitude of things, disarmament in the eye and be like that. That is wrong. It does. And I think that's why this movie probably ends up on the bottom of people's list. Because even though. Yes, it is very, like, you know, anti. Well, they fucking blow everything. You know, anti everything. Yes, it's anti everything. But that's kind of the problem, is that it doesn't get heavy handed till the very end. And even then, there's so many mixed messages or so many. A multitude of messages throughout the film that you're just like, oh, okay, so we're just. Civilization's just terrible cool, cool, cool, right?

40:01
Yeah. Cause it's. Yeah, I mean, the coherent messages this movie gets out are basically like, bomb bad, war bad. Fuck everybody.

40:13
Yeah, pretty much. We don't deserve to exist.

40:17
I mean, so the screenplay is. It's a Paul Dane screenplay, and he would go on to write the next two fully, and then he would do a rewrite on the battle script before it went into production. So clearly, he is okay with doing some of this kind of conversation about societal ills and whatnot. I just think he's more comfortable when he's dealing with it from the perspective of now and how bad humans are. And, like, never quite clicks. Like, I mean, he's the reason why we start shifting into more heroic apes as we go into the later movies. Like, just the next movie, all of a sudden, the apes are the heroes. And that change you can start to see sort of here because we get more of Cornelius and Zira. And, like, Zira particularly plays a big role.

40:55
Like, Brent is such a non actor in this all, like, not the actor Brent, but, like, he just doesn't make any choices. He's just on the run. And then when he, like, zero frees him, so he escapes, and, like, then goes in, and then, like, finds people who, like, mentally tell him what to do. And then he finds Taylor. And Taylor, like, leads him for the rest of this movie. Like, he's just not the. He's just not the leader type. Zira is more of a leader type. And so she starts to have a bit more of an assertive role because she's the one standing up against ape society. She's the, you know, throughout this whole thing.

41:25
I think that Dane just likes having protagonists that are a little bit easier to grok and, like, a setting where, like, he can complain about humanity up front. I mean, like, I also don't think it's an. It's a surprise that, like, we get evil humans in this movie, because I think that's. That's the axe that Dane wants to grind more than the. Than the. The much more metaphoric, grinding acts of, like, the ape stuff from the first movie. You know, like, ape society is also, like, kind of cool. Like, it's kind of exciting, and maybe. Maybe they just didn't want to deal with, like, saying, like, oh, yeah. But it's also, like, fucked up for x, y, and z reasons also. And they're just the same as us. You know? Like, I don't know. You know, it's. This is such.

42:06
You're sounding like an ape apologist, but go on.

42:09
Well, no, I get it. Yeah. And because the kind of. It's more. It's more difficult and subtle to use the. The ape society that rose after to kind of. Not retroactively, but to kind of more subtly talk about the problems in human society when you just have the human show up and just, you know, bag on them again. Yeah, yeah.

42:32
I mean, like, the. The next movie, escape, is, I think, the best follow up in the series. And, like, the one that is the most. Doing the most interesting things after the first one. And you like, I would say that this movie is just trying to get those ideas, but then it's a much better draft is then the. Its follow up.

42:49
Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, they were still. They were getting their feet under them for this one, too. They were working on a tight schedule, tight budget, lots of cooks in the kitchen trying to figure out what this thing was. And I think they figured it out. This was just kind of the first rough kind of groping around in the dark a little bit thematically for what's sticking and what's not.

43:06
Yeah, I mean, like, there's so much going on in this movie. Can I just bitch for a second about my. My least favorite shot in this entire movie?

43:15
Yes.

43:16
And that is when Brent is, like, first approaching the city and, like, the guerrilla guard spots him and, like, shoots or not, doesn't spot him, but spots, like. Like, a little bit of motion in the. In the grass, and he just immediately shoots into the bushes and a bird flies off, and he just, like, sees the bird and doesn't do anything about it. And again, this is me being a continuity wonka about a thing, but the whole fucking thing in the first movie was that there's just nothing. Nothing flies anymore. There's no animals that can fly. Flight is an impossibility as far as they believe. And it's just like, again, this movie is just like, do you kind of remember the previous one? We don't want you to remember the previous one that.

43:50
Well, the whole escape stuff was just. Was just weak. Like, both in just. Yeah, like, the continuity of that. And just also just, like, what your job is to shoot at any movement in bushes. And then when they do. And then when they do, like, the multiple chase, because they do a chase and then come back and then leave into a chase again, and it's just a lot. And, like, the weirdly silent chases with the bad Foley sound effects. Like, it's just. It was weird. And, like, the first one, there was novelty. And, like, apes on horses hunting humans like animals. And that was just. It was disturbing in the imagery, this one, like, it's just. It was just kind of a shitty western, but with people in monkey costumes.

44:33
I mean, I was impressed with how many, like, people they got on horseback riding.

44:37
Right.

44:37
Sequences. I did not like the number of horse stunts that occurred. Like, the number of times I saw horses fall down. I was like, oh, no, I don't like that.

44:45
It was weird how out of all of that, the most exciting part of the chases to me was, like, just the really basic western movie stunt where he's, like, when he kills the driver and has to, like, walk on the reins and go pick up the. Pick up the reins. That was, like, weirdly gripping. And, like, all of this stuff we did, and that was the most exciting part of the entire opening, was, like, this. This stunt that could be done in any western movie.

45:08
Yeah. Especially for all these sequences that have no sound effects. No sound effects, no score. Yeah.

45:14
Scores.

45:14
Yeah.

45:14
Which sometimes they do that to really good effect. Like, this movie does silence and sound effects. Both of the movies do silence and sound effects pretty effectively at different times. Not in the fights, like, the fights where there's no music and it's just. Just weird noises you can tell made in a recording booth and kind of haphazardly stuck on there. But then there's other times, like, I saw several people in, like, reviews and commentaries complain about it, but the amount of silence and just buzzing and cave sound effects in the early exploration parts of the subway of New York, I found that really compelling. Especially. I'm watching it at night. I have headphones on, and, like, that buzzing noise is oppressive. And so when it stops, like, my body relaxes and just. I thought, like, the.

45:58
The mystery and the stress of that part, I loved it. I thought that worked really well. Even when it was just cheesy stalactite water dripping sounds. Like. I just. I found the first parts of walking through the New York cave. It's really evocative.

46:13
Yeah. All the mutant sound effects, I actually really dug, like, the humming part, like, the way they, like, taunted them when they touched the ladder, and they were like. They actually really tested it, you know, like, tap it and release and, like. And, like. And then as soon as he got off the ladder, when he climbed up, like, the buzzing came right back. I really liked those details there. And then the actual sound effects of the. They would play when the mutants would project their thoughts, I thought was really good. Yeah. It was in the scene where he's like, going crazy because they're all, like, shouting thoughts into his brain, and we're hearing all of this stuff.

46:44
It kind of reminded me of 2001 in a certain way, the way that noise is so oppressive, and it's really coming on you right when the point where everyone goes black at various points, it felt kind of perfect for. For that. And I. I loved those parts there. I thought that was probably, of all the production elements of this movie, the sound design in the second half of the movie, I thought was the best. And honestly, that fight between Brent and Taylor not having music, I thought was perfectly fine because it was a brutal, weird fight within that weird hissing or whatever sound that you were getting from the dude projecting the slots.

47:23
Yeah, I agree.

47:24
Well, and especially cause there are moments where he's distracted or he, like. Because he has to disengage, where that sound stops. And so it's, like, kind of important for you to remember that. Like, there's a reason why.

47:37
Yeah, yeah. Just in general, I like the way that the mutant, like, communication and mind powers was handled. Like you said in that first scene when he drinks the water, and then they mind control him to try to drown. Try to drown. Nova. I actually really liked the way he depicted being mind controlled to do harm, where he's kind of mumbling the commands, like, when he goes, put your hands around her. It's just. It was cool. That was a cool depiction of being mind controlled to do violence, and it made up for how shitty and weird the second time was when he, like, kissed her to death. I guess I didn't understand. Yeah, but, yeah, but that. And then. Yeah, like, the scene where they're mentally interrogating him, and they all start blinking at him, and he's like, stop, I can't.

48:22
And you can just. He does that. His brain is exploding because a bunch of mutants are psychically shouting at him is cool. I. I thought that was really neat. Yeah.

48:31
And then when they, like, the mutants themselves, when they decide to talk to him, I thought it was kind of like they have, like, a fun snarkiness to them where it's like. It, like. Yes. Speaking is not really that sophisticated of a trick.

48:44
Yeah, no, that was good. That was good. That scene went on a little long, but I liked. I liked that scene.

48:49
Yeah.

48:49
It was also impressive learning that both that scene and the cathedral for the bomb were both like. They slap some stone on top of the hello, Dolly sets. Like, hello, Dolly. They are like, we have no money for this movie. Make it in the hello Dolly sound stage.

49:05
That movie cost us enough. Like, we can use that stuff.

49:09
Yeah. And then while we're on the mutants and the design and the. You know, I like. I agree that thematically, they're very confusing. Like, I like that they. I like. I like the hypocrisy of. We psychically make people kill each other, so that makes us not violent. Like, that's just so. It's. It's so nakedly hypocritical, but also just so. It's so good as just kind of. You know, it's just kind of this. Oh, we fight proxy wars in Asia. We're not.

49:35
We're.

49:35
You know, we're not imperialists. We make other countries fight each other. Like, it's cool. Like, you know, it's. It's confused as to who they are in the. In the metaphor, but. But that's cool. Another one I saw people complain about, but I dug, like, the church service where they are doing the singing to the bomb, I thought was super cool and super creepy. And, like, I loved pretty much every decision there. The. At first. I like when you could. When it's first obvious that they're just doing, like, high christian liturgy and replacing God with bomb, it's like you think you kind of, like, I get the point, but the scriptures and the hymns they choose are just. Are cool. I like, I think they picked them well for this cult.

50:23
Like, saying the verse they quoted at the beginning is the firmament declares his handiwork. The light extends to the end of the world. Those are really good verses about God that apply really well to worshiping the nuclear fallout from a bomb is just really cool. Saying, the radiation created angels, so, like, they take their mutation as, like, a badge of honor and chosenness by God.

50:45
That's really cool.

50:47
And just. I liked it. And then for how it's not. It's not the twist I'd expect from, you know, from a planet of the Apes movie. And it's. It's easy to nitpick the. Like, why do you wear masks? Because you're the only people here, and you all know your mutants. Like, it's a weird. It's a weird practice, but that shit. Like, the shot. The reveal was cool. It worked really well. And the shot of them singing the hymn while holding onto their head, like, their masks. That's a great shot. Oh, my God, I love that shot. It was so creepy and so weird.

51:19
Yeah. And it's also because the music is so beautiful.

51:22
Right?

51:22
The singing is so beautiful of this beautiful hymn and then they're revealing this true self of them. And, like, it's like they're becoming vulnerable in front of their God. Right. It's like, it's almost kind of like, you know, there are, in many religions, people who will wear vestments or put something on their head or something like that. And, you know, so it's like this moment where it's like, okay. And now the entire congregation, we can be as one, as our true selves in front of this God. And it's kind of like, oh, oh. These people are extreme, but also so beautiful. But also their face is supposed to be hideous. It's actually like a really. It's one of the moments that really works in this film, even if you're not. Even if the movie is not quite sure what this conflict really is.

52:19
Yeah. So, like a headcanon thing for this all is like, all right, what is the forbidden zone? Outside of the fact that it's remnants of human civilization, why would apes be advised not to go? And clearly there's a lot of radioactive fallout. And maybe it's, like, become less radioactive more recently. Maybe human. Like, the mutant culture kind of developed. Like, okay, well, we need some kind of protective layer. And they made it look like what human skin used to look like kind of thing.

52:46
And if one of them wanders outside, they look like the. They look like the other humans that are wandering around.

52:53
Yeah. I mean, one thing I thought was interesting on this rewatch was I was thinking about, like, why would they look the way they do? And obviously, a big chunk of it is budget. Like, we just have human actors and just, like, have their normal human faces and only do the makeup reveal later. Because otherwise you could have done just on, like, hazmat suits or full clothing that obscures the faces and so forth. And, like, you know, done something to, like, play into the radioactive element or the religious vestments element or both. But why is it human faces? And I was thinking about this part, which is, it's also a really small genetic pool. Like, this is the equivalent of, like, when we discovered Pompeii if all the Romans were still living there.

53:33
Yeah.

53:33
And even if it's like, a couple thousand people, which I don't think it is, it's a really small genetic pool. So there wouldn't really be that much racial diversity at this .2 thousand years in the future, regardless of what's been going on. And I find this conversation about our true self flipping around to being like, oh, so what is the face that they're putting on their outside. Is that their presentational self? Is that something that they are creating for themselves? Because, like. Like, all right, so fucked up thing in the credits, Don Pedro Collie is credited as the Negro. Yeah. Or not even the Negro. Just as Negro in it. And it. Which sucks because he's one of the most. Like, has one of the most lines of any characters in it all.

54:16
Like, he's the one who, like, is pushing them to have the fight between Britain and Taylor. Like, he has the one of the best deliveries of any other group. When it's, like, when we sing to our God. Like, it's a great line right there. And I like that we have a major black character in this group, but there's no reason anyone would be anything specifically at this point. They should all be pretty much, like, one sort of blended kind of thing going on here because it's just. There's just not that many people. And I wonder if there is a conversation that could be had about, like, how you project outwards versus inwards and, like, this. This is 2022 lens versus, like, 1970 lens, but, like. Like, there could be a trans conversation going on there. There can be.

55:03
There certainly can be a race conversation going on there. Like, why would you choose to look like any particular type of person when it's. When it's entirely pageantry in the first place?

55:13
You know, if you want a really good. If you want a really on the nose way to explore, like, what's. Like, you know, what's a society, like, where we don't care about each other's skin color? What about a society where we don't have skin anymore?

55:24
Yeah.

55:27
You know?

55:27
Yeah.

55:27
Because in my opinion, like, pupas underneath her or, like.

55:31
Right.

55:31
You know, like this, like, prototype person below, and then they put on a layer of humanity outside.

55:36
Right. And that kind of goes into my notes on kind of both the. Like, both the first half and the second half is, I don't know, we spent 40 minutes doing weird, you know, western horse chases when just, like, a few more beats on, like, what are these people like, on both ends? Like you said, how has ape culture responded to Taylor? And then, what are these mutants like? Yeah, like, the fact that you get to pick your face is that part of their society? What do they actually value other than blowing up the world if they get discovered?

56:11
Right. I mean, it's such a weird location also, because. So their base is, like, right at Queensborough Plaza.

56:19
Yeah.

56:20
Like, look, you can accept the fact that, like, post nuclear war and 2000 years of time, like, things that were above ground might be underground now. Totally fine. That the Statue of Liberty is up against a mountain face. Totally fine. Like, shit's changed. You know, a lot of weird stuff has occurred. Did make me stop and think, like, wait, is ape city just Astoria?

56:41
Yeah.

56:42
He barely leaves when he gets to Queensborough Plaza.

56:45
I know, I know. That was one of my notes. I was like, I feel like this needs a little more scale. Right? Like, all of this stuff is just, like 20 minutes outside of town. That tunnel that they go into, like, the scouts say, I think we're near the forbidden zone. Like, this isn't even in the forbidden zone. There's just subway tunnels that, like, apes should be finding this if they just go for a walk and get lost. Like, it's a weird sense of scale and how, you know, 2000 years and, like, I don't know, just now you're kind of running out of space and you're apparently in a very small area. So it's. It's weird. The scale is weird.

57:19
Yeah.

57:20
I mean, yeah. I mean, honestly, even also geographically, with the tunnels, it doesn't make sense. Like, when you run into certain things, also, like, just, there's water between Queens and Manhattan. Like, there's water. So, like, you know, for the end, he ends up on 51st street, new Rock Valley center, in front of St. John of the divines. I don't know if that tunnel would hold up through all that time with no one upkeeping it. It's not. Yeah, it's just one of those things. You have to accept that they were like, we just want to make sure, you know, this is New York, so we're going to put the lion libraries, which technically are ten blocks ahead of that. Then we're going to put Rockefeller center, and then we're going to put the church. And you're welcome. You know, there's.

58:11
There's a bunch of stuff that, like, if you want to get, like, world building, fill out the wiki quibbling. You can. You can do a lot of it. There's a lot of, you know, like, shouldn't. Like, has no one asked why monkey speak English? Like, this is a lot of stuff. There's a lot of stuff like that you could mostly be like, all right, now the movie has normalized that we're not thinking about this, so let's not think about it.

58:30
I would a little explain well enough, especially in the sequel or in escape, where it's just like, oh, it's the language that my parents were taught and their parents, like, by their parents and so forth.

58:40
Going to just, like, the New York. The monkeys speak English, right?

58:44
Alternatively, it might not be New York. Alternatively, all this might be just New York, and they're actually in Las Vegas right now.

58:52
Fair enough. Fair enough.

58:54
But, yeah. Like, for the most part, I was able to not be bothered by stuff that the movie seemed to just not want to be bothered by.

59:01
Right.

59:01
It was like. It is a. It is a little egregious. Like, okay, all of this is in, like, these entire two movies take place in, like, a 50 miles radius. It's kind of weird.

59:13
Yeah, it doesn't really feel like a planet. Feels like. More like the city of the Apes. Like, it feels like a region of the apes.

59:19
Borough of the apes. Yeah.

59:23
Yeah. I'd love to have Planet of the Apes listed as one of the great New York movies. Like, the city's a second character in it, frankly.

59:33
Yeah. Although some would argue that the Statue of Liberty is closer to New Jersey. Pains me to say it as a.

59:41
New Yorker, but, yeah, but I mean, like, then they're in Queensborough Plaza, so it's just the positioning's all kind of weird. And, like, honestly, like, I don't really care that much. I find it funny. It's. You know, but, like, honestly, the underground, Rockefeller center and all those things actually looks pretty good.

01:00:00
Yeah, they're cool sets.

01:00:01
I think the actual sets look shockingly good. I mean, it's weird that the mutants never in 2000 years were like, maybe. Maybe we should, like, redecorate a little bit. Like, maybe, like, make it a little bit nicer.

01:00:13
Yeah, that's why. Like, just, like, a little nod that, like, if you go further underground, there's the actual place. Like, just something like that. Just something like that.

01:00:19
Yeah, yeah. Like, maybe the bomb is, like, up there. Which, side note, I guess it's. There's, like, a military base right there, or they brought it over.

01:00:26
I don't know.

01:00:26
I don't know. It gets real weird. And again, with each movie being just like, oh, do you kind of remember the previous one? All of a sudden, it shifts over to California, and then, like, they sort of imply that the mutant base is starting in California, and it's always so small. Like, their world is never very big. Honestly, the biggest planet of the Apes movie is escape just by virtue of the fact that it's like, oh, yeah. Well, we're talking to Washington and then California, and there's, like, radio broadcasts, so you see people around the world a little bit, like, all the other ones are just like, oh, yeah. In this town that we're at currently the hamlet of the apes.

01:01:00
What a quaint little town.

01:01:05
And what about the sewer system? Oh, you mean we have to go beneath the hamlet of the apes? Also, that would be kind of fun if the mutant city was actually underneath the planet of the. Like, the ape city.

01:01:17
Literally. Just literally right under them.

01:01:19
Right. Like, right underneath it. Or at least, like, some aspect of it. Yeah. Something, you know, and maybe that could drive some of the tension, like, the realization that their civilization was, like, built on top of, like, literally, like, a still thriving one.

01:01:30
Yeah.

01:01:31
Or at least, like, still alive.

01:01:32
Yeah. That's fun.

01:01:34
I don't know. I don't know. This.

01:01:38
Deep sigh.

01:01:39
Yeah.

01:01:41
Like, there's so many weird moments in this movie. Like, the spot where Brent goes to drink some of the water when they first walk into the underground tunnel, and it, like, it looks like sludge. Like, he sticks his hand, it's green with floaty things, and he's like, this. I can't drink this. I'm like, why'd you think you could?

01:01:57
Yeah. There is not a person in any time that's like, ooh, this. This water that's filled with debris looks clean enough to drink.

01:02:06
Yeah. And, like, you know, you were at the scene where they were at zero, and Cornelius is like, that was, like, an hour ago. Like, you're not so dying of thirst yet that you need to drink the scummy, ancient fountain water.

01:02:17
Right. At least wait until they psychically create a clean one for you. Speaking about zero and Cornelius, we haven't actually talked about this one. So this is the one movie kind of, that Roddy McDowell is not playing Cornelius. And I say kind of because they have five minutes of the end of the first one at the beginning where it is Roddy McDowell playing Cornelius. They didn't reshoot those scenes. So we get. So we have David Watson as Cornelius, and so if you watch two clips back to back, it's pretty distinct. I actually think he's doing a pretty good job. I will say this kind of refutes the argument that we had last time when were talking about escape, that it's just the masks kind of are interchangeable. Like, very clearly the actor looking different. Like, he looked.

01:03:03
He didn't look like Cornelius because just the way the prosthetics, like, applied to his face, there's that. I think he did an okay job. I think it was fine.

01:03:16
Yeah, I mean, the. The scene in their house was basically the only actually good scene in the. Of the first part of the movie. Oh, yeah.

01:03:24
Like.

01:03:24
Like, that was. That was enjoyable. They actually did some pontificating on, what do these people think of what happened since last time? What do they think of what ape society is like now? Like, that was. I dug that part. And I also. I thought it was really funny because we. You know, we talk about, you know, dollar store, Charlton Heston. I love when he shows up. She's like, oh, my God, it's Taylor. Wait. No. Even she can't tell him what part.

01:03:48
But, yeah, it's kind of definitely poking fun of the fact that they found someone who looked exactly like him. I thought that was fun.

01:03:54
Yeah. And it makes sense because she's primed. Like, Nova had just walked in, and they do recognize Nova. And then this guy who has the same haircut.

01:04:00
Yeah.

01:04:01
Like, straight in.

01:04:02
It's just funny. Even. It was just. Was just funny.

01:04:04
And also, all humans look the same.

01:04:06
Right.

01:04:07
Also, that.

01:04:07
And, like, that also kind of worked for me. Like, that spot where the movie kind of acknowledges that they just look the same actually works. Yeah. I don't know if the movie should have done it, but, like, the fact that we have that one scene works fine.

01:04:21
Yeah, yeah.

01:04:22
Because, like, that's. Yeah. And that scene, like, their conversation was good. When Zayas comes over and they have a conversation, like, even not being a big fan of, like, how they got them to the point where, all right, there's a conquest going to the forbidden zone, and we need military and religion and science going, because this is going to shake our foundations, and so we need all hands on deck to survive after this. I like the conversation she had with him. That was. That was the part of the movie that felt like it remembered why the first movie was good.

01:04:51
Yeah. I think also, like, you get the scene does a lot of the heavy lifting of trying to give information about what is happening right now in ape society. Right. So, like, it's giving us, like, a post Taylor update, kind of. And it. Of course, because it's only a scene, it doesn't really. We don't really get too much. We don't get everything that we would want to need. Like, the consequences that case was talking about earlier. There should be real consequences to the fact that Taylor existed and that Taylor is gone and that, like, all of that stuff. Like, there should be stakes there. There should be actually stakes for Zira and Cornelius. There should be suspicion. There should. You know, there should be. And there is tension in this. In these scenes that are displayed. And so it's kind of nice because it.

01:05:49
It kind of. It sets the tone. It tries to set the tone on the right path, and then you get the horse stuff as you go off the rails again.

01:06:01
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because we get Doctor Zaeus, who, of course, is, like, the big bad guy of the first movie, being like, God, you guys thought I was bad. This fucker, general Ursus. Like, fuck him.

01:06:10
Yeah, right.

01:06:11
But it is weird, right? Because Ursus is bad for wanting to do the thing that Zayas doesn't want to do. Like, it's still, like. It's just. It's. It's a weird conflict, and, like, the way that he's. I felt like he was weirdly civil with. With Zira. Yeah. Zero and Cornelius. Like, I. Like, I get that. You know, like, all right, public need. There's a truce that happened. It was just weirdly fast. Like, come especially. I watched him back to back. I was like, weren't you about to have these guys basically executed for heresy? Like, when did. When did y'all become buds? And I get this kind of, like, oh, this.

01:06:43
You know, the war guys being an asshole, and so they have to call a truce a little bit, but it was a weird, like, speed up to friendship when they still seem, on paper, fairly opposed. Yeah, it was weird.

01:06:55
Yeah. And I feel like the only. Like, the real tension was just coming from Zira. Like, she would, like. Like, the actress is still in the last movie. Like, she remembered where her. Where her character is coming from.

01:07:06
Right.

01:07:06
And the script was like, no. And Doctor Zayas was like, no, we're good. There's this bad. There's a gorilla that I don't like, so we're good. Which is like. I mean, sometimes some religious leaders are like that. So, I mean, maybe it's true to what the actor thought it should be, but it is kind of. It is jarring. This is why I purposely did not watch. I thought about it. I thought about doing exactly what you did. I thought about watching the first movie into the second movie, and I was like, I'm not gonna do that to myself because I am gonna be really disappointed when I have to watch beneath.

01:07:38
Yeah. And then it's interesting that then when they go into the forbidden zone and all the illusions pop up to, like, try to scare them away, Doctor Zeus is one being like, oh, it's all fake.

01:07:48
Yeah. And that's one that I feel like that's the part where I was like, man, I feel like, in a better version of this movie, that moment's really powerful because, like, the imagery is really cool as one. We're like, on paper, all of this is really evocative, but I don't understand what's happening. Like, the image, the fire with their bleeding, this bleeding statue of their prophet, and, like, the crucified monkeys behind the fire. That was sick as hell. I loved that shot. And then him being the one to believe and walk through it felt important. It felt like character development. It felt like a change in the conflict. But I can't figure out what it's supposed to be. And there's, like, that's. That's kind of. That's kind of the mo of this movie is really evocative moments.

01:08:37
They don't fit into kind of anything big.

01:08:40
Yeah.

01:08:41
I mean, I think in that moment, if they had tried to make it that his faith overcame the illusions, if somehow it broke him to believe that the rules and everything that he lives for is the thing that, like, we can't be challenged like this. No, no. I have to have faith to walk through. But that wasn't, like, really in the text. Like, you could head canon it if you wanted to, but it seemed more like a skeptic's point of view and not someone who's so strong in their own personal faith that someone else's illusions can't break their faith.

01:09:24
Right. And that's kind of a. I feel like that's a weakness in. Especially in the second movie with how Zaias is given. Like, if you're gonna do, like, if you're gonna do the crystal fascism and you're gonna have, like, the guy who is the religious leader and the scientific leader and has the politician's ear, they set him up more as kind of knowing a lot of its bullshit. And I'm keeping you guys from knowing the harder stuff. And I just. In general, I find that a less accurate and more cynical way to deal with, like, how fundamentalist religion infiltrates politics. Like, the extent to which I feel like it's easy to assume, like, oh, the guys at the top know that they're grifters. And I just think that's generally a less interesting way to depict it. I think it.

01:10:13
If it was some actual, you know, faith that he's, like you said, if there's actual faith he's wrestling with and, you know, he reaches inside himself and finds something that's. That would be more like. I saw it more as. I don't know, like, he kind of knows this has to be some kind of illusion. They paint him, I think, a little too much as a grifter in it. And that kind of annoys me. I did like, that is Zaius, though.

01:10:41
In the first movie too, though. Like, he is aware that humanity has a history of being intelligent, at least, like, and that their text explicitly is denying those parts.

01:10:50
Right. Yeah. Right, yeah. And I think, like, I like this is, that's one of my quibbles with, like, Zeus in the entire metaphor.

01:10:55
But, yeah, I mean, I think you could also state, though, like, you can be a grifter and start believing your own press. Right. Like, I think there's a fine line to walk there. And I think, like, even if they had made it seem more like, I think if they had just placed a line in there somewhere where the gorillas questioned him and his authority or, like, his knowledge or something like that. Because then that becomes about pride, right? That comes more about like, oh, shit, like, I won't be in power. If they can question me on this, they can question me on anything, right.

01:11:35
And take some cred back from the military for a moment, which I think was kind of accomplished there, you know?

01:11:40
Right.

01:11:41
He's kind of, he's, he's insecure about losing, you know, he's losing his control. And the military demagogue is now, like, calling the shots and he kind of gets some of the cred back on that moment, Zachary.

01:11:52
I think even just like a moment of, like, the gorilla just being like, I thought you said that blah, blah, blah. And be like, no, this is merely illusions. And then he could be a little afraid, but he could still charge in. So you're like, oh, does he really believe it's a fucking illusion? No, he doesn't. And then he does. And then he's like, ha.

01:12:13
It was like a game of chicken or something between an Ursus. Yeah, because if Ursus was like, Michael Clark Duncan's character in the Tim Burton planet of these movies where he's actually, like, a very devout religious figure in addition to being the military leader type character. And he's, like, pushing it even further. So it's like this race between someone who, like, because Zaius doesn't is he's a grifter, but he's not a grifter. He legitimately believes that ape society is way better than human society ever was. It's not like there's some, like, old, ancient race that, like, actually had their shit together. Like, he's, he knows that they destroyed themselves. Like, and the only thing he's concerned about is preventing apes from following the same mistakes.

01:12:51
And so he's trying to hide that part of human, like, of their history by way of being, like, okay, apes. Like, humans destroyed themselves. Apes will have a better society by way of never quite, like, never quite embracing modernity in the same way. Like, they've got some of. Some of the conveniences, but they really are anti intellectual. It's more about, like, replicating the few things that are convenient but not actually, like, going too far into the. Into this path of destruction. Like, so again, he is a grifter because he's denying these things, but it is for, like, he sees it for the greater good, right? But if someone took the whole dogma and over, like, went too far with it. And that's why, like, because Ursus at one point says ape, not kill ape. Like, he's the one who says that to not Nades.

01:13:34
And, like, that would be interesting if, like, you know all the spots where it's like, oh, we don't need martyrs. And so they just like, let's do it quietly. And what, I don't know. It's so back and forth on, like, what. What the gorillas believe in this movie.

01:13:48
I know.

01:13:51
Man.

01:13:52
I did. Like, after the, after he gets through the illusions as a characterization of the mutants, I really love that the way they justify it is, oh, no, they're too stupid for our mind magic to work on them. And, like, it's just, they can't admit, like, a failure. It's just like, they have to, like, oh, no, we're too superior for our peaceful interventions to work. I love that. That is just a really good dig on how self important and hypocritical their culture was. I felt like that's an underrated moment. That was a really good line.

01:14:22
Yeah. I think that kind of goes along with, like, generally the. Again, going back to the screenwriter, Paul Dane, like, the later movies has a bit more. A bit more of an ax to grind against hypocrites. Like, there is a bit more of a discussion about how humanity thinks itself is enlightened in the next movies and how we're actually just as barbaric, if not worse than the apes. And so I think there is kind of that going on there, that there's, like, someone who's, like, really mad about people who are performatively good but still shitty.

01:14:49
Yeah.

01:14:50
And that's kind of going on with this movie as well, because it's like the whole, we're a peaceful.

01:14:54
Yeah, we.

01:14:54
They kill ourselves or they kill each other kind of bit.

01:14:57
Yeah. And I liked in this one too, because, like, there was that moment and then at the end, like, the big conflict at the end, there's two big moments of both of these groups because of their self important superiority and dogma underestimating each other. Because you have that part where like, oh, no, the apes are too stupid for that to work. And then at the end, when they're fighting near the bomb, the apes aren't scared of the bomb because they don't believe that humans can build something that's actually that dangerous. And that's part of, like, why they get sloppy. Like, there's a line about, like, what? Like, what do we have to fear about a machine made by man? And, like, so, like, that moment of them underestimating the humans because of believing their own dogmas and that destroying the world, that was cool.

01:15:40
And, and it's a consequence of, you know, Zaya's making. Zaya's making sure that ape society never actually learns that humans are intelligent and wherever industrious and could build things. And so the fact that they believe that is why they can't handle the bombroom situation correctly. And that's the downfall. I like that a lot.

01:15:59
Yeah. Like, cool stuff going on in this movie. Again, I want this movie to get revealed, especially because this is a movie that the circus trilogy, particularly war for the planet of the apes, does a lot to fix. Like, or at least in terms of my retrospect of it, like, this movie as one of fuck nine Planet of the Apes movies. Like, it works a lot better knowing that, like, we see not just like in battle, sort of like a little bit of the doomsday cult stuff going on, but we see all the alpha and omega stuff in that timeline.

01:16:34
And we see them, like, shaving their heads ritualistically, like, which kind of, like, leads this vibe of, like, oh, this is how we get to, like, the mutant place of them having, like, this, like, featureless, like, form that they go to and that. And this, like, obsession with, like, retaining their humanity as well. Like, all those things are going on in the cult, at the foundation in war. And I think those all work to make the franchise as a whole better, which I. Is one of the reasons why I really love the circus movies and why, looking back now, like, I'm not as frustrated about, like, the limitations of this movie as I was when I first saw it, you know? Like, I think that's kind of a cool part about it too.

01:17:11
But I feel like we're all chomping at the bit to fix this movie.

01:17:15
Yeah, yeah, I think we're. I think we're ready. Yeah.

01:17:18
But I was gonna say it is telling for how, you know, panned this movie is how much inspiration everything else still takes from it. Like, I think it just shows how big the ideas were here and how evocative the image was that, like, there's not the same vibe for, you know, this isn't, like, a rocky five doesn't count. Like, this one still counts. It was just really rough, and we want the cool parts to count harder. Like, everything still pulls from it, and that's. It's interesting.

01:17:44
Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, like, it is also interesting looking at this movie, as this is the only sequel that actually is set on the Planet of the Apes. Like, all the other movies are not. And, like, part of that is.

01:17:54
Yeah, part of it is that there is no planet of the apes after.

01:17:56
This, but, like, this is our only other time outside of the tv shows, which are set, which are all prequels to the Heston movie. So this is the only one where it's like, yeah, we're gonna just, like, be here and, like, have, like, an adventure with a different human after the stuff we saw, and we'll see where things go. And, you know, I think we all wanted this to be more monumental, but, like, people like this franchise, they came out to see this movie a lot. Like, this movie's commercially successful. It's like. Again, I have to emphasize that part. It's just critically panned, right? Yeah. So why don't we take a break, and when we come back, we can speculate on what they could have done at the time of production to not have this be critically panned. Video games are a unique medium.

01:18:39
They can tell stories, immerse us in strange, fantastic worlds, blur the very boundaries of our reality. But at the end of the day, video games are fun. Whatever fun is to you. I'm Jeff Moonan. And I am Matt, aka Stormageddon. And on fun and games, we talk about the history, trends, and community of video games. It's a celebration of all the games we play and all the fun we find within them. And there's so many more games out there, so we hope you'll share in that conversation with us. Fun and games podcast with Matt and jeff. Find us on certainpov.com or wherever you get your podcasts and happy gaming. And we're back. All right, so, sam Perez, here's the deal. On. On the show, I am not allowed to go before Sam alasea. So as our guest, you get to choose. Does.

01:19:30
Do you want to take the first swing, or does Sam get to go first? If Sam goes first, then I could go before you, but that's the math on that one.

01:19:39
Okay. I actually don't mind going first. Okay, so I'll go first. So when I was thinking of what I would do, like what I would do differently in this movie, I made a few assumptions. I'm going to keep the general outline. I'm going to assume that we have the same basic beats that we need to hit. Right. The ape city is going into the forbidden zone. There's a hyper advanced mutant race of humans living in the living deep. Still big twists reveal that they're mutants. And I'm not making a lot of effort to do any sort of continuity with the circus movies. I'm just thinking, if I am making Planet of the Apes two, and all I know is Planet of the Apes one, what am I doing?

01:20:13
Right? This is from the perspective of making the movie at the time. Yes. You're not going to get Charlton Heston as your lead, because Charlie Heston flat out is like, I'm not doing this movie. Okay, I'll come for a cameo.

01:20:24
Yeah. Yep. And so basically, all of my differences are just smoothing out the ideological, like, parallels and differences of the apes and the humans. And I think that's how you make this more interesting. So I think we. I think we take a cue from the old, from one of the pitch scripts that got thrown out rather than just Taylor went to jail and has been there since ten minutes after the first movie, I have him teaching, like, having a little group of humans and slowly teaching them how to speak. They have little grunt communications now. Like, he's starting to spread. He's starting to spread some of that, and then he's been captured, and we don't know what happened to him at the beginning. And this means Nova can talk a little bit now, and I think this makes her a little bit less gross.

01:21:11
It'll still be gross because, you know, it's the seventies. You gotta have that. But it's not just this weird fantasy of this mute, sexy woman that you have complete intellectual dominance over. And the flashback where he talked about, like, maybe I'll teach you to talk, or maybe we'll propagate the human race. It'll be a little less gross if.

01:21:29
She can communicate back the consent to it.

01:21:33
Yes, yes. She is now at least has enough agency to consent to things. And so, and I think that makes. That makes some of the scenes where, like, she finds him and it'll. It's a less weird overall. So. And then change a little bit of ape and human culture. So focus on how the apes want to believe that they're ontologically superior to humans. Right? They have the. We're the only ones capable of rational thought. The only ones capable of moral thought. And so they're hiding, like in the first movie, they're hiding evidence of the advanced civilization, of the path of the past. They're silencing the scientists, you know, who we're trying to prove. Other words, we focus on that conflict. I like the desperate need for the forbidden zone, right? Like, we don't have enough food. Look, like, we've been here long enough.

01:22:15
There is a very tiny part of land that you let us live in and grow food on. We need more land. And there has been both scouts to go see if that's possible, that are scouting without permission of the, you know, of the church and the scientists. And then also, you know, with. With Taylor being there and with stuff having happened. Some people are going out. Maybe some artifacts are coming back. There's chatter among the. Among ape city of, you know, like, what is out there is something hiding from. Are they hiding something from us? So, you know, there's a little bit of kind of intellectual unrest in the planet, like, in Ape City since. Since the first movie. And so that's kind of the setting for them. The humans. I like, we need. We need the bomb cult to be more interesting.

01:22:59
We need a little bit fleshed out. The goal that kind of the same from them, the parts that worked was when they were a different form of violent society than the apes would give them more of, like, the holdover of how we destroyed ourselves in the first place. I want to see a little bit more of their city, a little bit more of their culture. I want it to be a little more utopian. Like, they're advanced, they have psychic powers. You know, once you get underground with them, you know, make it for the group of mutants that's alive. Like, there's actually, like, there's comforts here, there's technology here.

01:23:30
They're living underground and hidden, but they're living in comfort and some sort of prosperity with, you know, with at least among themselves, and then tie them in to why the rest of the humans are mute. I like the idea that they get their psychic powers from the radiation, but, like, at a certain age, a high dose of the radiation and if you can't handle it, your brain melts, and you can't talk. But you don't get the full, like, something. Like, you don't get the full face skin mutation, but now you're like, something's wrong with your brain, and they throw you out, and that you know that they are. I like the idea that they are somehow responsible for the mute humans, and so they want to stay isolated because they just, like, there's a big group of them that can handle the mutations.

01:24:16
They are the ones chosen by their God. They deserve to live in prosperity and in privacy. See? Forever, and let the other humans just kind of go be. Go be chattel for the. Go be chattel for the apes and then the bomb. I want there to be some kind of knowledge between the religious ape leadership and maybe one of the mutants. I like the idea that maybe there's a couple that actually both know the bomb in there and the motivation of the bomb. Humans have the bomb because they would rather end the world than share it with some sort of inferior life form. Ape leadership would rather end the world than essentially have to emotionally handle the spiritual consequences of not being the one unique species that God made.

01:25:05
Like, the fact that the humans that we keep and treat as animals are capable of thought, are capable of speech, are capable of ethics in a way that we are. And just the reason that they would want the end of the world is just not being able to emotionally handle both the ethical consequences of how we've treated these things that actually have agency and intelligence and also just having to redo your brain so that you are not the only intelligent thing on the planet. The religious leaders are too invested in the worldview where they are the only thing that God likes, and it's easier to die than to. Than to deal with it. And so that way, the bomb represents less Vietnam bad, because that's a little narrow, and it represents more.

01:25:57
Elites have the power and will to burn everything down rather than be uncomfortable. And I like. I like this imagery because both the apes and both the mutants, they're both kind of. They're still both basically christofascism just manifesting in a different form of violence. Manifesting in a different form of, what does this do for the people who follow it? And so you keep that christian nationalist parallel that was really strong in the. In the first. And it just. It fleshes out a little bit. So those are. Those are my changes. And so, basically, you know, Taylor's been teaching. Teaching a few people to speak off on the side some of, like, both with that and with some of the apes starting to find shit from the forbidden zone, there is a spiritual intellectual crisis in the city of the apes.

01:26:46
And so they know that, like, everything, like, the bottom is going to fall out of their faith if they just kind of let people go into the forbidden zone and find stuff. And so the military conquest, bringing, you know, so it's more of a manifest destiny. We're going to go conquer new lands and go see what's there and take it for hours. But then the scientists and the religious leaders have to go with them so that they can control the messaging that comes out afterwards. Like, all right, we're going to have to update stuff, and we're gonna have to figure out how to not have everybody's minds collapse from finding out that some basic tenets of who we are wrong. Yeah, and that the. Yeah, and so both the.

01:27:23
Both the stuff coming from the forbidden zone and then maybe a few more talking humans showing up is starting to happen just frequently enough that it's starting to cause problems. And I like the idea that the mutants actually are the ones who captured the Taylor and his talking mutants. Cause they were also kind of ruining the thing. And I like the image that both ape leadership and human leadership like the status quo right now and just kind of don't want anybody messing it up. So those are the areas I'd focus on differently if I was doing this script rewrite.

01:27:55
Okay. Yeah, I think those are similar ideas to what I was kind of thinking, so I'm excited to sort of play those out, but yeah, I also read that whole. The early drafts idea. I'm glad that you didn't say, like, what the original end twist was gonna be, which was gonna be Doctor Zaius in a zoo being tortured by humans.

01:28:12
Right.

01:28:13
Yeah, it's terrible.

01:28:14
Yeah. Which was going too far. And also, like, kind of just like, reverses the status quo.

01:28:18
Yeah, I know.

01:28:18
Immediately.

01:28:19
Yeah, I know. Yeah. There was a few of those specs group where just like, humans are on top again. Isn't it great? Like, that's. That's weird, right?

01:28:27
No, I do really like the idea.

01:28:28
Of, like, Taylor building up a, like, a civilization kind of thing. I think that's pretty cool.

01:28:32
Yeah. And I like the idea that he got maybe like three people that can talk and both the apes and the mutants, like, nope, can't have this. We have a thing going on. Like, just. That's fun. I think that would be a cool way to go with it.

01:28:46
Awesome. Sam Alisai, do you want to take a swing?

01:28:49
So it's interesting because mine is very similar, because I also thought that the conflict should be over land, because I think it's, like, the easiest kind of this idea that, I mean, eventually, civilizations just want to conquer things, right? And so just spread out and kind of move into places. And so, like, even though there's this forbidden zone, I feel like in order to keep people engaged in power, right, I feel like Zaius is going to want to manifest destiny, this shit, right? And we're going to, like, move in. We're going to cleanse the area. We're going to really take, because we've reached such a level of piety, because this actually creates a nice, unlikely bond between him, or even a strenuous bond between him and the gorillas, because they want to move on.

01:29:47
And it's not enough to just capture these animals, these humans, and kind of enslave them and things like that. Like, there must be more out there, right? There must be more land to have. And so it's kind of like, well, we've never gone beyond the forbidden zone. Oh, I've seen a sign. I've seen a sign we can, right? And so, like, that kind of threatens the underneath world that has been. I would definitely, you know, I understand Mister Heston needs to be there. And honestly, I really like him blowing everything up at the end, because I need escape to happen, because I love it, so I need to happen. I mean, I need those two chimps to go into the future and go to some lavish parties and do a makeover sequence. I need that to happen.

01:30:39
So the ending is going to stay exactly the same for the most part. I mean, literally everything's gonna blow up. I'm fine with it.

01:30:48
I mean, that was kind of a criteria of Charlton Hestens for him to come back. So, like, yeah, it kind of has to.

01:30:54
Yeah, right. It has to. So, really, what I want to flesh out is just, like, the conflict of what's happening between the mutants and the apes. And I think that it's enough that apes are going missing into scouting. And this is kind of like questioning, I think also, I kind of want the chimps kind of led by Zira, instead of to just protest for peace, I want them to be protesting for humane treatment of humans. I want them to be animal rights activists, basically. Like, that makes it more like, it would make more sense to me, because now that they've met Taylor and, you know, yes, they did a lot of experimentation on animals they were trying to learn or on humans. They're trying to learn about humans and things like that. That doesn't necessarily mean that they could not be empathetic to them.

01:31:55
I mean, there are plenty of people that work within medical science that may have to deal with splicing mice, brains for Alzheimer, things like that. They're not necessarily animal haters. And so I think, like, it would make sense for the chimps to be okay to be placed for a few of them to be placed in this more sympathetic life. Like, oh, no, don't you see? Because this is where a consequence of Taylor being there comes into play. Oh, don't you see? There's possibilities for them they possibly can learn. I think maybe we could try by teaching them sign language, which is really, like, kind of like. No, no. Like, it's clear that they have, you know, real valid attachments and emotions.

01:32:48
And so I feel like that would be interesting, because that's like a real repercussion from this guy showing up, that is showing them that humans are more than what they expected. And then I think in the beginning, I would like to have Nova actually. I know, I know. Okay, look, fuck it. It's the seventies. And I know that it's got to be a big thing when she's, like, Taylor at the end, and that's supposed to help snapping out of it, but no, I want her to be able to at least mimic the sound of his name in the very top so that Nova gets to have a little more agency, even if she's mostly grunting and signing and, like, the only word she knows is Taylor. Or maybe she only can do that, tuh like, she can only go, tuh like, fine.

01:33:38
But I want her to be able to start the process of, like, being someone who can talk or being someone who can, like, be an active member. Also, I wanna give Brent, because we've accepted that he exists. Okay? Like, Hestan's out, so we're gonna have a Brent. I thought about just cutting him out and just having Nova be like the star. I did think about that.

01:34:00
I thought about that too. And it's like, it's hard to make that work unless you really want to commit to, like, a fairly abstract, like, a fairly mute performance from the character.

01:34:10
Right? Which could be interesting. Like, again, this. It could definitely still be interesting if she is using a primitive sign and her body language and kind of like, running through things. And because the mutants speak telepathically, you don't actually need her to speak. You only need her to think you'd have to do voiceovers, and, you know, maybe there'd be a fun, like, oh, my God, is that what I sound like? I don't know. So I did kind of play with that, right? I did kind of play with the idea of doing that, because I do think that it's kind of interesting to have all of a sudden Taylor taken away from her. She's got all sorts of new knowledge, and then she runs back to zero. So we still have that conversation, right?

01:35:01
Zero could have an even more tense conversation with Zayas because Zayas doesn't want to completely get rid of her. But it's very contentious. It's very, like. And I think there should be, like, a line in there. Like, you are only here because of, like, my grace or my forgiveness. Like, I want. I want to know that there is, like, a complicated truce between them and maybe even a reason why he's decided to spare her and Cornelius, despite the fact, like, I think actually you should have the chimps be protesting for, like, human, you know, humane treatment of humans, and have him, like, come in and be like, listen, the only reason you're alive is because you're helping me keep them in check, right? So, like, they're like. And so I think that becomes, like, super interesting. But. But despite.

01:35:53
Even if I don't do that with Nova, I think it could be interesting, but it might be hard, and it might be, like, a little knot of the time. So having Brent come in, I'd like to give him a little more action, because I feel like even though he's a man who, like, fights and stuff and, you know, he. He kind of just goes with the flow, and I get that he's a man out of time. I understand that he is a person who is not from this world, but I feel like he doesn't. He just kind of, like, listens and doesn't question, which. Listen as a coward, I completely understand that, but I think that this is not a person who's a coward.

01:36:35
He's a person who signed up to be part of an experimental space program that went through a time warp in order to go after his friend Taylor. Like, that is not a man who is just gonna be, like, cuckoo cool. So I just hide from the gorillas. Okay, check. I got that. Like, he doesn't question anything, so I need him to question things. And I would like him to get to the mutants a little sooner. I would like him to actually almost get into a scrape with the gorillas. I'd like him to not be captured and I'd like Nova to save him, who's been, like, kind of hiding because she doesn't have Taylor, and then she kind of will lead him to this area where the.

01:37:17
Where the gorillas do not go, which is the forbidden zone, and the two of them have to go in there unknowingly. And I would actually like for, like, the mutants to be very suspicious of her, but understand right away that he's somehow different and kind of tried to get information out of him and cozy up to him for him to, like, later, like, reveal. Like, kind of, like, take him into the fold, you know, because I listen to a lot of cult podcasts, so I want a little more of the cult stuff. I want them to, like, take him into the fold and for him to turn around and be like. But that's, you know, like, I want the weapon reveal, even though, oh, God. Honestly, that scene when he walks in and you see the bomb, like, that's, like, pretty, like, awesome.

01:38:07
But I want it to be, like, not soon, because now I'm getting to them sooner. Right? So I want him to walk into a civilization that is a little more polished. It's underground. I'm thinking, like, Logan's run. I'm thinking, like, oh, we have, like, a utopia. Like, it's so great. No. We have been hiding from the apes. Oh, no. Yes. They're coming for us. Because now he sees them as. As people, right? He sees them as people who, like, the people that will be from who he was and from the people that he left behind. So automatically, there's like, oh, my God. Thank gosh humans survived. Like, we lived on. Like, this is amazing. And he's kind of in the fold, and he's asking about Nova, but they're like, no, she's very well taken care of. Don't worry. Da da da. You know?

01:38:56
Like, she's fine. And later to find out that she's definitely not fine. Cause she's actually in prison with Taylor. Like, and they've imprisoned Taylor because he found out about the bomb, and they think because they've ingratiated this guy that, like, he'll be fine, but in the end, that doesn't happen. They are still snarky about how primitive his brain is. And then together, he and Taylor. And, yes, I would still keep them fighting, like, being mind controlled, fight to the death, because I do love that. Yeah, it's weird and it's quirky, and I would definitely keep that scene, but I definitely feel that the both of them would be like, okay, we need to stop. We need to stop this bomb from going off. We need to stop them because the gorillas are coming. We know what they're planning to do.

01:39:45
They're basically death cult himing it out. They're like, we're ready to die. We're going to drink the Kool Aid and, like, go into that. And then I don't know if I want him to die. Like, I don't know if I want him to die by the hands of the apes or if I want him to die by Taylor's hand, because Taylor decides that it all should end. And then Taylor hits the bomb. Because I think that there's something, like, crazy about that, but, like, no, it has to end. But either way, they do get blown to smithereens, and I get my escape movie, and that makes me happy.

01:40:24
Yeah, I feel like we all have kind of similar notes because this movie obviously had a lot of, like, real hurdles to get over just to, like, get made. So, you know, when it. When it was coming out, it was like, yeah, we're probably going to have, like, a new white guy protagonist to replace our previous white guy protagonist because it's 1970. Oh, yeah.

01:40:42
I read that it was going to be Burt Reynolds at first. That would have been so much better.

01:40:47
At least that would have been really different.

01:40:49
It would have been really different. I don't know if it would have different. I don't know better, but I would have, like, yeah, it would have been a very different vibe.

01:40:54
That'd be wild. I love it, though, because, like, yeah, I brent so similar, but, like, I don't think you could take out Brent without, like, getting into a movie that they weren't going to make at this time. You know, like, having it be about Nova actually would feel very much like, you know, to reference the circus movies. Again, it would feel a lot like, either rise or dawn to, like, follow a character who's mostly mute and, like, maybe grunting out a couple random words, and that would all be really interesting. But, like, I just don't think they were gonna make that movie in 1970. Like, it's shocking enough that the next movie is the apes or the protagonists. And that's mostly because it's like, let's flip the script, and then all of a sudden, the rest of the movies are that way.

01:41:30
That being said, you talked about the end. Just to jump in here for a second, because I want to revise one of mine because I really, like. You talked about how the end and how the bomb goes off. I like, the scene, if I do it. If I. If I do it. If I do my version right, the end. Fight, people. Now everyone's kind of seen too much, right? So, like, you know, like, the. The conflict is kind of. Is the conflict's kind of ending. The ape soldiers have learned shit. They've had their existential moment. They're kind of coming to peace with it. And there's, like, it's showing that people are leaving. Like, you knowledge is getting out now. Okay? We're gonna have to learn how to coexist with one another. And maybe it's a, you know, like, nuke.

01:42:08
Like, nukes are, you know, a two key nuke. It's both, like, the mutant leader and Zayas are the ones that turned the key and nuke everything. Oh, that's how mine ends.

01:42:18
Oh, man. Yeah, that's. If Zeus is, like, really, like, in an alliance with, like, the leaders. The leadership. No.

01:42:25
Yes. I don't. I don't even think it's an alliance. I think that's at least on mine, like, the way I had it, that's him having his existential moment of, he cannot exist in the world where he is not of the only race that is capable of ethical and moral thought. You know, like, I cannot emotionally handle not being God's chosen people.

01:42:45
Yeah. So for mine, I would. So I would keep the opening with, like, shots from the first movie. I would trim it down a lot. Like, trim it down substantially. And then, like, I would try to have a more somber, kind of, like, opening credits sequence than, you know, like, we. You know, we get to the, like, Hestan, like, riding off and maybe we don't even deal with, like, the Statue of Liberty part, like, because sure, that was the big twist of the previous one, but it's fine. We all know, like, everyone knows this.

01:43:12
Is the one part everybody definitely remembered already.

01:43:14
Yeah, everyone remembers this part. So I would have the credits open with, like, the sound of shoveling and, like, I would have, like, Brent and the skipper, like, burying the rest of their crew and imply that there were a bunch of people who died when they crash landed, and I wouldn't have the skipper dying. Like, I actually think that, like, one of the big issues is that it's just Brent. Like, if there were other people, I think that would at least. I mean, and I realized that, like, Heston, like, arrived with two other astronauts and, like, you know, they get picked off and so forth. But, like, I think the fact that it's just Brent for this whole movie is, like, yep. He's just gonna be Charleston Heston part two, you know, the dime store version.

01:43:49
And I think, like, having two characters that are, like, operating in this world would help sort of get to where I want to go with this movie, which is that I think that if he's going to end up back at the ape city and he's going to end up, like, living out some of the beats, let's make it more extreme. I'm thinking, like, sure, the flashback, we can establish that. Like, Hestan, I like the idea of Heston having, like, a human colony of some kind that he's starting to, like, put together. Maybe they're, like, pre verbal, but they're starting to at least understand. When he says something, they'll kind of respond to it. And maybe they're making out some grunts and maybe some tay, you know, like, instead of Taylor, something like that, and, like, kind of rolling with that.

01:44:24
But I think that Brent should get captured and maybe so should skipper and should be fucking, like, publicly tortured because they talked. And this is the. This should be the catalyst that pushes Ursus over what was originally just like. Like, because the whole. The whole thing in the first movie where Zaius is like, oh, I think you're from some sort of weird, like, throwback or mutant tribe or something that's out there that can still speak or is able to speak in the first place or whatever is going on. I think that should be a fear that is being stoked now. And I think that the. The revelation of a distinct second and possibly third speaking human should be the thing where it's just like, holy fuck, are there enemies? Like, right there?

01:45:02
Like, and that should be this whole moment where the gorillas should be, like, the real zealots here. Like. Like, they. They have been tasked with all of this sort of, like, foundational work of, like, they're. They're the essential workers of their society. They are the ones who are the hunters going out there. I don't think the famine excuse makes any sense. Like, I think that, like, we established that they are surrounded by green space. Like, yeah, maybe humanity is, like, fucking up their crops, and maybe that's the thing where it's just like, they've been playing dumb this whole goddamn time. And so maybe there's, like, this element of them, like, torturing, like, all the random humans that they have in captivity, trying to find if there's other sleeper cells, like, other moles that have, like, come back here, or if it's just these two.

01:45:43
And, like, what's going on here, because I think it should be, like, now we're really afraid of humanity out there at large. Like, what we thought was animal is actually just a sleeper cell and that we're actually going to, like, turn it around because, fuck. Like, we just never realized how, like. Like, that were actually kind of surrounded by our enemies, and that should stoke the fears and, like, build up this whole, like, kind of, like, war thing. And I think that this is the spot where Zaius realizes that he has lost control. Like, because, like, oh, shit. Now that everyone knows that there are humans who can talk, and that started with Taylor, and it just, like, started. It created this, like, weird fervor.

01:46:20
And now the gorillas are going nuts because, like, now they're scared and they are questioning their faith, but the way that they're questioning it is they're falling back on the scripture more so and really trying to be like, no, these are abomination. This is a heresy to even exist. We have to wipe them out and pushed too far in this scenario. And Zaius is like, fuck. I was trying to keep this under control. Now this is going nuts. Like, they're gonna go out there and, like, there's some shit out there I don't want them to see. And, like, maybe we could, like, drop a reference that it used to be, like, walking in those lands. Like, everyone would come back tainted or, like, sickened or something to that effect. You know, establish the radiation. You know, kind of go with that.

01:47:00
Then, like, same deal. Like, I like the set pieces for. For, like, the. The ruins of New York. I think that we can play with that a little bit more. I think that. I agree it should. There should be something kind of utopian. You can make it look like a shopping mall, like, kind of thing. Like, because, like, us talking about it all. I'm, like, getting flashes of the Gazorpazorp episode of Rick and Morty with, like, the all female versus all male society. Like, yeah, and, like, feeling like maybe it's, like, kind of like that. Like, I'm here if you need to talk. Like, there's a spider, Inspector G, please plan your rats accordingly. Kind of things, like, roll with that. Like, have this, like, wonderful, like, utopian kind of world that they, like, stumble into.

01:47:41
But then I think that all they, like, so, like, I feel like, sorry, I'm backing up. I think that Brent and possibly skipper and Nova should be captured and then tortured and used as an example for why we have to go to war. And I think that they should lead an escape. Like, I think they should free of all the humans that they're with, and they should flee to, like, find more people. So we can kind of create this third faction where it's, like, the humans that escaped with them, and then they meet up with Taylor's group, or maybe they can't find Taylor's group. Maybe they find Taylor, like, where Taylor's group was, and it's all abandoned. And so they. Then the.

01:48:13
They find the layers below, because then I think once they are taken in by this, the mutant society, that then they should be put in the Bronx zoo and, like, get another New York thing. And, like, that, I think, should be the holding cells where, like, all of a sudden, it's like, oh, the mutants are going to do the same thing to us that the apes were doing. You know, like, just establish, like, the mutants, bring them in, and it's like, oh, look, these are the primitives. Like, you know, welcome them in that regard. But, like, they are still being treated as, like, a type of animal. Even though they're acknowledging that they're intelligent, or at least some of them are intelligent, it's still, like, they're still primitive humans to these mutants. They still don't have their true self. That element there.

01:48:55
They have not witnessed the bomb. That way, we could actually have more of. Maybe Brent leads humans from Ape City. They go in here, they get put in prison again. Now with Taylor, they free themselves, right as the apes have now marched and, like, found the apes, like, the, you know, the mutant city, and then we can get a three way kind of battle going on there. And I'm thinking that Nova should be revealed to be carrying Taylor's child at this point, so that Taylor actually has something that he's trying to fight for, because I don't think that it makes sense. Like, Taylor fucking hates this world. Like, I get that, but it still seems like a really big step to be, like, let's nuke them all. Like, he already was pretty mad about that.

01:49:38
He was really upset that humanity blew themselves up in the first one. Like, I think that even. Even as much of, like, a misanthrope as Taylor is, like, he very explicitly doesn't like people. And, like, his. One of his arcs of the first movie is realizing that he is lonely and he needs to find some kind of companionship. You know, compare that with Brent. Brent probably shouldn't have that vibe at all. Like, Brent is. Seems to be, like, fairly, like, personable and, like, especially if he has, like, skipper with him. And, like, they can be like, yeah, no, we're. This is a fucked up place we're in. But, like, we got each other, buddy. And they know they're in the future. Like, they all know they're in the future. Like, Bran has a much more understated kind of reaction.

01:50:17
Anyway, I like all of that. So I think maybe. Maybe them trying to stop the apes from fucking up the bomb. They get shot and they fall over and, like, you know, destroy it. Rather than any kind of ambiguity about the purpose of actually setting it off. I think it should totally be an accident, or it should be the mutants actually doing it like that. You know? Like, either the mutants are like, this is our final step and we have to do it, or the apes shoot Taylor and Brent and they both fall backwards. Or just shoot Taylor and he falls into it and whatnot. But I think that having more of a three way battle at the end will allow the chaos to be a little bit crazier in that whole situation.

01:50:55
But I don't hate the ending of this movie, so I don't need that to be wildly changed. I just need it to be more interesting up until we get to that point.

01:51:02
Yeah, because also we need escape.

01:51:05
Right. Also we need escape. And again, like, Charlton Hesson wasn't coming back unless this movie ended with, like, literally the world is destroyed and it's not coming back.

01:51:14
Yeah, it's interesting. Like, just. I mean, this is the same thing I said before we started about how. How much moment to moment works, even with how panned this movie is, because all of ours are just. I just want the things that worked to work harder, you know?

01:51:29
Yeah.

01:51:29
And just stitched together better.

01:51:30
Yeah, yeah. Right, but that's. Yeah, but that's part of it. Yeah. Part of making them work harder is give them narrative weight that matches the just pure aesthetic weight that they had.

01:51:43
Yeah. Honestly, just clearing up what, however you want to do it, what the motivation is for the apes and the mutants to be at war.

01:51:54
Right.

01:51:54
What does anybody want here that specifically will make so much more sense. Right. Whether it's a religious crusade, whether it's a grab for power of land, whether it's that neither of them want the status quo upset, which Taylor definitely does. It doesn't matter as long as there's a reason for real explained in the script and not just a headcanon that we've made up.

01:52:23
Right.

01:52:24
To justify everything. Yeah. Honestly, it's just. It's unfortunate that the middle of this movie just lags so hard because the end is pretty cool and it leads to some really cool stuff, even though Charles suggestion is really what blew it up.

01:52:45
Yeah, I mean, like, this movie is definitely, like, what we're talking about when we say that. Like, we look at movies that are fascinating but flawed on. On this show, and, like, this is, like, there are so many fascinating bits to it all, but also so many just, like, fucked up spots. Just in terms of, like, what the presentation was and in terms of the makeup, like, you know, we never really talked about. Just, like, God, is the eight makeup bad in this? Like, this is the worst of all of them. Like, even battery makeup?

01:53:10
Yeah. Yeah. If you're not. If you're not a named ape, you get the party city mask.

01:53:14
Right. And unfortunately, they're all sitting next to each other, so they do a close up on zero, but they show the three very obvious party city masks, like, right next to it. And it's just, like, kind of on better use of your camera there, right?

01:53:25
Yeah, it's like, the mashing is hard to fault them for because they have their budget cut in half during pre production, but come on.

01:53:31
Right? Yeah, no, I know why it happened, but just choose where you put the characters so that it's not as obvious all the time. Like, they have so many, like, close ups on, like, characters who are very clearly in shitty masks and just, like. No, no. Why? And I don't know how you work around that, aside from just, like, better camera placement, which is kind of a, like, man, the DP and the director could have been more on top of things, I guess. But, yeah, like, the mutant stuff is interesting. It's. It's a big pivot, and it's nice to introduce that, like. Like, the protoss in this situation. You know, like, that we have, like, all right, well, we've got the ape society, and they're one thing, and we've got this bestial human society, and they're, like, weirdly primitive.

01:54:12
And the apes are kind of, like, they're a little bit more primitive than us. Like, they're pre industrial, but they're about, like, colonial America level tech for the most part, with maybe a couple areas where it's a little more advanced and a couple areas where it's less. And then we got, like, our super advanced group to throw in there. And, like, that makes for, like, a good, like, real time strategy game kind of setup if you wanted to. And it's just unfortunate that's not. This is a movie instead of a shotgun. God, I want that game now. That would be fucking cool. Like, chimpanzee shock troops and. Or rather, they're in, like, dirigibles and. Yeah, like. Like, it's cool stuff. It's just unfortunate that they needed to retread so much. And, you know, were joking off Mike.

01:55:01
Like, could you imagine if Brent had just gone straight to where Taylor was lost and we just never saw any apes in this whole fucking movie? Like, they just never were there. Like, or maybe just the ape scouts that, like, we're seeing.

01:55:11
They just trolled you. They'd like. It's like a rick roll, but, like, where are the apes? Beneath the planet of the Apes. You're gonna know this mutant.

01:55:20
It would be an interesting pacing choice to just kind of flip it right. Like, you go straight there, and then 45 minutes into the movie, the apes invade. Like, yeah, that could be cool.

01:55:30
Or they reveal the bomb, and it opens, like, the silo that the bomb is. Is in, and all of a sudden, it, like, just apes fall through. Cause it literally is under ape city. They all just, like, look down, and it's like, God, I guess were beneath the planet of the apes.

01:55:43
We were here the whole time.

01:55:46
So, like, 45 minutes, you're like, wait, is this a planet of the apes movie? Like, what's going on here? Like, there's mutants, and it's, like, certainly the future, but I don't know. It's good. Like, I don't see any of the apes stuff. Oh, there they are.

01:55:59
I liked one of the spec scripts that was just like, they get in a different spaceship, and they go further into the future, and it's like, what's the planet made of now? And it's like, the series becomes a stupid, like, planet of the X series, where each one's just a different, weird future. Like, that's a terrible idea, but it's hilarious.

01:56:15
Planet of the crabs.

01:56:19
That is the most terrifying of the planets for me, just sideway walking in, pinchers coming at you.

01:56:27
Did either of you see the future is wild, which was, like, a speck. Like, I forget what station it was on, but it was like, we're going to speculate on, like, what the future evolution of the planet looks like based on, like, geographic factors that we can anticipate. And so, like, eventually, most mammals die off in it. Like, the last mammals that are really alive are, like, these, like, mice that spiders keep to, like, clean their nests. But one area that they get to is that they establish, like, at this, like, far future point. But, like, it's not as far as it goes that, like, they start having like land cephalopods, like land, like octopi, who that have. Or octopuses that have developed nests that they fill up with water and are able to function.

01:57:06
This sort of weird kind of predatory plant type thing that they post up in these water baths or water pools and eat anything that comes close to them. And then eventually they get to the point where most vertebrates are dead at that point. And these vast jungles that have conquered a chunk of North America have both, like, elephant sized octopuses as well as, like, these little swinging ones that are supposed to be, like, simian type things that they, like, are, like. Eventually these will become, like, sapient creatures again, and Earth will have its. Have sapient creatures once more. So, like, Planet of the octopuses.

01:57:46
I like it.

01:57:47
Yeah, but that. I mean, that doesn't get any of the social commentary that they're trying to go for in this movie. Like the apes specifically, being like a descendant society to ours is important as well. It's not just that they have usurped our role, it's that they have literally taken much of our culture and shorthanded it, and as a result, are repeating our same mistakes over and over again.

01:58:08
It would be interesting if you were doing a modern one. You could almost pull off Planet of the octopus, but it's about we destroyed the world with climate change and the same kind of anxiety and the different thing that outlives us because it didn't have the same foibles we did. So.

01:58:25
Yeah, yeah. I mean, they can also be fascinating. I don't know, it's just then you get onto the timetable for all these things. Like the ape one makes sense because.

01:58:34
You walk along the beach and there's just like, an ocean full of plastic water bottles. Like, you did it, you maniacs.

01:58:44
Yeah. Or it's like the dry land scene in Waterworld where. But it's just like the tip of the Statue of Liberty is, like, sticking out or something. Yeah, I. You know, it's. This movie is such a bummer because it's. It's not. It is our only real time spending in the planet of the apes once we know what the twist is officially. And, like, really, like, spending time, like, seeing their society after the fact. And I really wish they had capitalized more on, like, all right, what does Taylor's existence mean to this ape society? And then what does, you know, what is going on with the mutants and, like, how. How they have related to each other over the 2000 years.

01:59:23
Yeah, right.

01:59:24
Since then, like, because it's, you know, it's weird.

01:59:27
Yeah. Honestly, real talk, if I'm. If I'm redoing the spec script completely from scratch and, like, I don't have to, you know, I don't have to be realistic and we could make whatever movie we wanted it to be. My planet of the apes two does not have advanced human mutants. Right. Like, I like.

01:59:41
Right.

01:59:41
Let's explore the social consequences of what this means to live on a planet of the apes. And one of the intelligent humans is back. And, like, I think there's more. And there's actually more interesting places to go there than with the. Actually humans didn't die off. Like, I think.

01:59:56
Right.

01:59:57
I'd think that. I think that cheapens the whole premise. But if this is what we. This is what we have with what we have.

02:00:03
Yeah, because, like, what if the forbidden zone isn't, like, they, like, what if ape city isn't, like, inside the forbidden zone? Like, it lives little island? What if the forbidden zone is just a little park area that they, like, know there are ruins and, like, right.

02:00:15
And they want to go destroy it, but, like, it's still too radioactive to, like, send people down there and.

02:00:20
Yeah, and, like, then we could maybe have, like, a scenario where, like, they go off and they see the rest of the actual planet and, like, maybe travel and see more of what has happened to the world in this time. And maybe ape societies. They're all ape societies, but they all are a little bit different. You could play a bit more with that. Who holds more power? Because it's clearly a city state. There would be probably just different groups at different levels of technological innovation and whatnot. And that could be really cool. And you have this outsider figure moving about them and really disrupting shit just by virtue of existing. But that would be way more expensive than what? Oh, yeah, yeah, man. It's just.

02:01:01
It'd be cool to find, like, there's another apes. You know, there's more ape cultures, and they are like. Like, you spend them. You spend an entire movie on, like, oh, this is what ape culture is like. And then you find another one, and they, like, know that there used to be humans and are super chill about it and, like, think the first group is like, what's wrong with these people? You know? You know, it's like, cool, man.

02:01:22
Yeah, it's like, you talk.

02:01:23
Yeah, it's like the mandalorian moment of, like, oh, he's one of them. It's like, oh, this isn't what this culture is. This is a very particular, like, expression of it and.

02:01:31
Right.

02:01:32
And, you know, like maybe because they've been surrounded by radioactive forbidden zones. They've been isolated and haven't gone out to, you know, the rest of it. And so then how do they deal with the fact that, oh, now there's other apes that are challenging our dogma? Like, that's. There's fun possibilities there.

02:01:47
Yeah, a lot of fun. It's just like this movie had such a slashed budget for a movie that barely, like the first one barely got made. We're talking about it next.

02:01:54
Yeah.

02:01:54
Because it was like such an incredible testament that they were able to make it on the budget they had, let alone the sequel where they had half the budget.

02:02:01
Right. And it's a Sci-Fi sequel in the seventies. Like, now give us some flash Gordon shit. Do, do the mutants, like it's gonna happen. That's where it's gonna go. They're not gonna do think pieces about ape religion.

02:02:13
Yeah. So it's a bummer that this one wasn't stronger. It is the reason why they completely flipped the script for the third one, which is, again, one I just love so much in the, in the totality of the series. So like, it kind of had to happen.

02:02:29
Right. And it's interesting to think that if this movie was better and made less money, we probably just would not have the planet of the Apes franchise. Like, this was dumb, but it did gangbusters. And now, like, this is an institution that is still around. And that's. It's a fascinating, it's a fascinating moment in any franchise. Just like how this is such a movie that nobody actually likes but is super important to like what came next. It's just really. It's really interesting. It's a really interesting movie for how kind of overall weak it is. I'm glad I spent time watching and thinking about this movie. It was. It was cool.

02:03:06
Yeah.

02:03:07
Well, then you're welcome. I take back feeling sorry.

02:03:12
Yes. So, Sam, Alize, now that we are this deep into the franchise, where are they lining up? Because we know the first one, generally speaking, is going to be your top and then escape is going to be your number two in terms of the. It's going to be your silver medal on that one.

02:03:27
Yeah.

02:03:28
And then conquest probably is like, conquest is my bronze just by virtue of. It's like so fucking hardcore.

02:03:33
Oh, yeah, definitely.

02:03:34
And then, and the circus ones feel like their own, like separate thing because like it's so unfair to. But like, I had always like, said that like, between the Burton one battle, and beneath, they kind of all sort of fall at the bottom for different reasons. Like, so, Sam, for you, like, where. Where are those three kind of fall?

02:03:49
You know what? I am. I'm gonna. I'm gonna say this, and people may not. May not agree with me, but I am going to say that it is battle, then Burton, then this one. And because I was actually surprised on my rewatch of battle, because when I watched it, I was like, I hate this movie. But when I rewatched it, I was like, oh, actually, for the micro budget that they had and for, like, just the lack of support and everything, I actually really enjoyed the film, and I was surprised that I did not hate it. So, yeah, that's where it goes. And, you know, the Burton one has its. It has its qualities. I just didn't feel like he. I think aesthetically it looked good, but I felt like he didn't really understand what I thought was true to the universe.

02:04:43
I feel like circus really gets it or the circus trilogy gets it, but I just. I was like. I actually, like, put off watching the circus ones because I was so turned off by the Burton one that I decided that I did not want to watch any more planet of the apes. I was done with it, and it took me a little while before I actually watched the circus, so. Yes, but it is not worse than this movie. Even though this movie has a lot more interesting things to say, it also doesn't almost say anything. So, like, it still has to be dead last for me.

02:05:18
Yeah. Like, the Burton one's not great. It's barely good. But you're not just, like, bored most of the time, which I felt like for a lot of beneath, I'm just actively bored during long portions of this. There's lots of parts that work, and then there's a lot that's boring and confusing.

02:05:34
Yeah. Like, if I have the tv on and, like, the Burton one comes on and I'm, like, doing laundry and folding laundry, like, I might leave it on in the background, but if, like, beneath comes on, like, even though, like, technically the beeping makes so much sense, I'm not gonna leave that on in the background. I am going to change this movie. I'm going to find Princess diaries two, and I'm going to leave that on in the background instead.

02:05:59
Yeah. Yeah, because, like, the Burton one also has the benefit of just the special effects being so good in that one that, like, at least it's visually really interesting to look at. And honestly, like, the plot of that movie is closer to what I was pitching here, where it's just like, let's lead an uprising kind of thing, which, you know, doesn't happen in the original, and, like, all right, that's a natural escalation of this, like, lonely person's trying to escape from society. Like, he, you know, leads all the people in an uprising kind of moment. That would all be cool. But, you know, it's also still a terrible movie. Yeah, yeah. Like, I think. I think the better special effects in Burton puts it above. Beneath for me. Like, there's some, like, I'm sorry.

02:06:42
That. That tree fight was amazing. I mean, nothing happened in it. I can't. For the kitsch value alone. I can't believe it. I cannot believe you're putting. Go on. I'm sorry. It was rude.

02:06:53
Yeah, so, yeah, so for me, it's, you know, again, original escape, conquest, and then battle has wormed its way up by virtue of it being like, oh, I can't believe this movie got made, period. And Burton and then beneath and. Yeah, yeah, it's about there. Yeah, yeah, that's. It's. That's wild. Yeah. It's such a weird franchise that, like, I. I just fucking love so much, and I'm so glad we're doing these. I know everyone knows at this point, we're four movies in, but. Yeah, so that was kind of my.

02:07:31
Reaction when I finished watching this. I'm like, it's so cool that all these movies exist.

02:07:35
Yeah, yeah, that's just wild. Like, you're like, oh, cool. Good for you. Existing.

02:07:41
Yeah, it's like, I don't particularly love any of them. Just. It's cool that they're here. Like, movies are more interesting because these keep happening.

02:07:51
I don't know. Three is, like, easy to love once. Like, I don't know if you just haven't seen that in a while, but, like, man, it's, like, weirdly charming for a bunch of it and then a gut punch at the end, which is kind of how, like, a lot of the Planet of the Apes movies work, but, yeah, I mean, yeah, so, anyway, so, Sam Perez, thank you for joining us for this episode. Thank you for undertaking what. What has a lot of the, like, I'd say the weirdest qualities going on here. Like, you know, again, mutant death cult, like, is an interesting, like, addition for just this one movie, end of the world surprise narrator saying, that planet just died.

02:08:33
Yeah. Thank you for. Thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun.

02:08:36
Where can people find you, follow you know, plugs yeah.

02:08:41
So on the Internet, I am. I do a lot of tweeting. I'm on Twitter. The handle is skip sandwich. Like, skip the form of movement and sandwich the food. I blog@skipsandwichdx.com. That's my personal blog. And then I have a recently started project with a friend. If you go to functionaladults.com, this is an archive of the talks me and a friend give at conventions and some articles we plan to write about how to be a functional adult in this difficult world while still letting your freak frag fly and getting into your nerd stuff. So that's a fun project that we recently kicked off that I'm having a lot of fun with.

02:09:22
Excellent.

02:09:22
Excellent.

02:09:23
Well, people should check that out.

02:09:24
And if you're ever at east coast conventions, come find us. We do panels. They're a lot of fun.

02:09:28
Yeah. So people should check that out. You're so fun to talk to. I'm so glad to have you on in an episode that is making the light of day.

02:09:39
Hopefully. I don't think there's anything in here that you'll listen back to and be like, wow, we can't air this.

02:09:44
We're cutting it. We said were doing all five. We're cutting the beneath one. And people would be like, okay, fair.

02:09:52
They'd be like, great. Don't have to rewatch it. Fantastic.

02:09:56
Yeah. So, no, thank you for coming on. It's great to chat.

02:10:01
Yeah.

02:10:02
Yeah. Now, sam, a. Where can people find you and follow you?

02:10:08
They can find me here, and they can find me at the discord. Our discord. But other than that, they really won't be able to follow me or find me anywhere because I am too busy walking the tunnels through Queensborough Plaza to find my way into Manhattan, to find my way to a secret underground lair where I will worship the weapons that I can show my true self to. But if you have any complaints. Complaints about what I said or even the orders and you think that, like, I don't know, somehow Burton doesn't deserve to be, like, down that far on the list. You are wrong. But you can take that up with case at.

02:10:46
You can find me on Twitter at case aiken. You can find the show at another pass. You can go fuck yourself if you think that we need to have a strong debate about which one is tied for last, because they're all not that great at the end. And at the beginning, they're great. Yes. It doesn't matter how far bad they are. But on that note, you can find more episodes of this show where we are talking about the other planet of the apes@certainpov.com. Where you can find tons of other great shows like fun and games with Matt and Jeff. Like I said, sam Perez, you were on talking about Borderlands two or one?

02:11:23
Borderlands two.

02:11:24
Yes, Borderlands two for us, for side quests a while back. And that feed is just, there's just so much positivity on that feed because in addition to the main show, which never really wants to deal with like reviews or so forth, but more just likes discussing the industry from a really, like, positive standpoint, sidequest is just such an effort to, like, put out in the world, like, the love that people have for video games. It's a really cool time. Our editor Matt has been really responsible for a lot of good vibes on the Internet as a result. And that's like, kind of amazing. You can also find video versions of that on our YouTube channel, which is certain pov media. So Sam already has a, that has already been converted to animated format.

02:12:06
So you could check out that one, and you can check out all the other stuff we're doing on our YouTube channel, such as doing clips of our shows and doing animated versions of that, as well as my Superman analog videos. So those are all good things at our YouTube channel. And you can find all those links@certainpov.com. As well as a link to our discord server and what we've got coming up next, which I think all the audience knows at this point. We've been four movies in Sam Alisea. What are we talking about next time?

02:12:32
Collective sigh of relief.

02:12:34
The Burton one.

02:12:35
Oh, my God. That's not what I said. Collective sigh of relief, my friend. Not a deep sigh of resignation. No. Next time we'll be talking about the amazing planet of the apes. But until then, if you enjoyed this, pass it on.

02:13:00
Thanks for listening to certain point of views. Another past podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com.

02:13:14
Another pass as a certain pov production. Our hosts are Sam Alicea and case Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm. Our logo and episode art is by case Aiken. Our intro theme is by Vin Macri, and our outro theme is by Matt Brogan.

02:13:29
My cat's joining us.

02:13:31
Oh, hi, cat.

02:13:32
Also Sam. Sam. Sam. Sam.

02:13:34
Yes. Hi. Nice to meet you.

02:13:35
Yes. Hi. Doctor Zaius. Doctor Zeus.

02:13:41
No, I was having a lot of thoughts of. He can talk. He can talk. He can talk. I can sing.

02:13:49
I hope Matt hasn't gotten tired of us doing this for every single one.

02:13:54
Well, I mean, as of the time we're recording this, Matt has not even started to edit any of them since we're doing this.

02:14:00
Well, but, I mean, like, while he's editing this, I hope by the time he gets to this one, which is number four.

02:14:06
Yep.

02:14:07
He's not like these mother truckers, us. They just keep doing this to me. We're sorry.

02:14:15
Say hi to otis CpOv certainpov.com.