Can a bunch of millennials look past their rose tinted nostalgia glasses when discussing a milestone from their childhood like “Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II: The Secret of the Ooze”? Mike Urban joins us for the more kid friendly second entry in the franchise.

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Meeting summary:

●      The meeting discussed various aspects of the movie "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II: The Secret of the Ooze," including practical effects and costume designs, production challenges, lack of character development, the role of the ooze in the plot, April O'Neil's character and recasting, and the impact of the soundtrack. Action items were assigned to analyze these elements further for a better understanding of the movie's strengths and weaknesses.

Notes:

●      🎬 Introduction and Guest Welcome (00:00 - 01:10)

●      Introduction of the podcast and hosts.

●      Welcome to guest Mike Urban and discussion of their history together.

●      Brief mention of the movie to be discussed: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II: The Secret of the Ooze.

●      🐢 Discussion on Practical Effects and Costumes (04:07 - 06:19)

●      Comparison of the turtles' costumes between the first and second movies.

●      Mention of the changes in the effects studio and the impact on the movie.

●      Discussion on the details like battle damage, bruising, and individual features.

●      🎥 Production and Tone Shift (06:19 - 08:56)

●      Impact of the rushed production schedule on the movie.

●      Changes in production staff and their effects on the movie's tone and quality.

●      Comparison of the special effects and animatronics between the two movies.

●      🧩 Character Arcs and Development (17:19 - 19:50)

●      Lack of character development and learning in the movie.

●      Interactions between the turtles and other characters like April, Splinter, and Shredder.

●      Discussion on the turtles' lack of arcs and the impact on the overall plot.

●      🧪 The Secret of the Ooze (31:46 - 33:46)

●      Introduction of the ooze and its effects.

●      Discussion on the potential inclusion of Krang or other alien elements.

●      Impact of the ooze's backstory on the plot and character arcs.

●      📺 April O'Neil's Role and Recasting (42:00 - 44:33)

●      Comparison of April's character development and involvement in both movies.

●      Impact of the recasting on the character's role and the movie's plot.

●      Discussion on the differences in April's portrayal and her interactions with other characters.

●      🎵 Soundtrack and Musical Choices (58:01 - 01:00:55)

●      Comparison of the soundtrack of the second movie with the first movie.

●      Inclusion of Vanilla Ice and its impact on the movie's popularity.

●      Discussion on the musical choices and their effect on the overall tone of the movie.

Transcript

(Subject to Error)

00:00
Case Aiken
So, yeah, let's just get into talking about the movie because we're all, like we're all pumped about this, and also we all have stuff going on.

00:09
Mike Urban
Welcome to Certain POVs, another Pass podcast with Case and Sam, where we take another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed.

00:17
Case Aiken
Let's see how we could have fixed them. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to Another Pass podcast. I'm Casey Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Sam Alicea.

00:27
Sam Alicea
Hi.

00:28
Case Aiken
And today we are once again graced by one of the various geeklies that I've met through all the convention scene. We've got Mike Urban here.

00:36
Mike Urban
Hi, I'm Mike. Nice to meet you. If I haven't met you before, Mike.

00:41
Case Aiken
It'S great to get you on. We've known each other for several years now since at Geeklycon. The first one I went to, I was wearing a certain POV shirt. Specifically a Scruffy Nerf Herders won the it's a Slap shirt. And you thought it was funny, and you came up and you gave me a ticket for the point system that was going on there.

00:56
Mike Urban
Yes. And yeah, we've been talking ever since.

01:01
Case Aiken
Yeah.

01:02
Mike Urban
Good to see you at all these Geeklycon events and just all the stuff that you're doing out there in the world.

01:09
Case Aiken
Yeah. It was so great to see in person again after obviously for various reasons that who can say? We weren't able to all meet in person for a couple of years. This past summer was great to reconnect with everyone.

01:21
Mike Urban
Oh, yeah. It was so good. And it was that just the right amount of people where everybody felt comfortable, everybody was being kind to each other and assessing their risks, and I just want people to be nice to each other, and I love that. Yeah.

01:41
Case Aiken
It was a good place for everyone to come out of their shells, you might say.

01:45
Mike Urban
Yeah.

01:45
Case Aiken
Which is a great lead into the movie that we're talking about today, because today we are talking about the 1991 classic teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Two, the Secret of the Ooze Kawabanga.

02:00
Sam Alicea
Oh, I want to put you on a joke timeout so much, but go on.

02:04
Mike Urban
Oh, I mean, it's been a while, so I used to do a podcast called Sacred Cows Tonight. It's on hiatus. I couldn't say it's hiatus because that would indicate that I intend on coming back at some point. But I don't know, whenever I come back to the podcasting world because I've been busy with a little bit of life things, it'll probably be something slightly different. But anyway, no, I saw that you all wanted to talk about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, too, and I was like, Heck yeah, let's talk about that. I love that movie. Or I think I did.

02:42
Case Aiken
Yeah. This has been on our list for a while. We talked about Turtles Three very early on in the show's history, and that's infamously the one that's, like the one people didn't like as much. Turtle power, turtle fever, whatever you want to call it, had started to die down a bit. The Effect studio that was doing their costumes changed. And you can tell. You can tell. And in fact, I'm very angry with Amazon or whomever decided that. Now, if you go to try to buy this online, the COVID art for both Turtles One and Two uses the character models from Three, and it just feels like mean because Turtles Two, whatever you think of it, whatever you think about it, continues the tradition of Jim Henson Studios doing these amazing turtle costumes.

03:28
Sam Alicea
Yeah. And honestly, Splinter looks amazing, too. When it started and I was watching this, and of course, it's been several years since I've seen this movie, even though I was really excited, I was like, yes, let's do this. And then also a little bit of me was like, oh, my God, is this going to ruin my childhood? Is this going to not hold up? There's always, like, a little fear there. But the turtles looked great. But when I saw splinter, I was like, oh, right. Yeah, he looks amazing. You can really tell. I was like, oh, yeah, this is the good stuff. Practical effects. Love it.

04:06
Case Aiken
Yeah, I was reading about the practical effects between this one and the first one, where the conversation was about the willing suspension of disbelief that goes on with their costume designs. The turtles don't look like real turtles or real turtle anthropomorphicized by wave mutation kind of thing. They don't look real. Right. But they look appropriate for the setting that they're in. Like, they fit and we're here for it because they look right more so than looking real.

04:35
Mike Urban
Yeah. What I really appreciate about that is the small details that they did with the first one. Everything felt, like, grimy and dirty, and the turtles felt wet and like they live in a sewer. And all the small details that, yes, you know, they're not real. But it helps with all those things to suspend that disbelief, including in the first movie, the turtle battle damage, they're bruising and things like that. There isn't so much of that in this movie because of the change in tone. But still, the level of details and the level of quality that they put in these so that these martial artists, actors in the suits could actually do all the cool stuff while having all of this going on, it blew my mind.

05:27
Case Aiken
Yeah. I mean, the character work, like the design work, is a big part of why the first movie actually was one of our fifth episodes where we talked about all the hurdles behind going into it because it was an indie movie that, while, yes, it was being built on a franchise that was becoming an explosive popularity phenomenon at the time. When the movie was greenlit, it wasn't there yet. And it's incredible that they got that movie together and then it was such a huge hit. It held the record for most popular, best, largest box office indie movie until Blair Witch. And that's pretty crazy that you could make a movie quite that big from this weird little thing that started off as a sketch, like making fun of X Men and Daredevil stuff.

06:15
Case Aiken
But it was so successful that they immediately rushed a second movie into production, and that was Turtles Two. It's coming out, I think, eleven months after the first one. So it's a really tight turnaround on getting this movie together and getting it into theaters, which that's going to create some challenges for you when you are working with a special effects heavy, or at the very least, like animatronic heavy property like this. But that said, the design work continuing from Henson looks fantastic. Looking at Raphael, for example, I kept admiring how he has, like a very scarred shell, like his back shell has slashes all over it.

06:52
Case Aiken
And I'm not sure if that was his design throughout all of the first movie, or if it happens when he gets beaten up really badly in the first movie, or if it's only for this movie, but if it's a nod to the fact that he got really horribly injured in the first movie, that's a cool thing. That's a nice design detail, and none of the other turtles have it.

07:09
Mike Urban
I didn't even think about that. That's a good notice.

07:12
Sam Alicea
Yeah. I also love that there's clear freckles and dark spots and things. It just makes them feel so real. It really lends that artistic, like, oh, wow, there's like a couple of little freckles on Donatello's shoulder, and you can kind of see them this moment.

07:33
Case Aiken
Yeah, they all look different is really nice. And it's not just their faces have little differences. Every part of the outfit has something that's individualized.

07:41
Mike Urban
Yeah, that's what I was going to actually mention, too. I felt like with these turtles, I could tell the difference between them without looking at their headbands. If their headbands came off for a scene or something like that, they decided to make that choice. I feel like I could still say, okay, that's Raphael, that's Donatello, that's Michelangelo, because of how different they made the faces look, the shapes, the freckles, all of those things.

08:03
Case Aiken
Yeah. Really incredible work. And honestly, looking at this movie where there is a very different tone, there is a very different ethos going into what this movie is versus the first one. One thing I really noticed is that the saturation is much higher in this movie. Like the first one's very washed out, and you can really see it when you look at their headbands. The red for Raphael pops in a way that it just didn't in the first movie. All the colors in general are just like way like I said, the hue is just cranked way up.

08:32
Sam Alicea
I think that went along with the tone shift, right? Because everything in this movie, they're not in the sewer anymore. So I guess maybe the dampness is not wearing out the clothes and everything's a little bit brighter and the sets are a little bit brighter. I think that also goes along with just like the tone change of the film.

08:56
Mike Urban
Yeah, it felt like a lot of the places they were fighting and things like that. Like they're fighting inside of a little tiny mini mall and things like that. Those choices they made so they can have the Turtles be much more jokey and things like that. So the brightness of the humor, the brightness of the sets, the brightness of the Turtles. Yeah, it all goes together.

09:17
Case Aiken
And I mean, it makes sense. There's a big turnover in terms of the production staff. Like Steve Barron did not continue on to this movie after the first one. So it's Michael Pressman who is mostly known for doing TV work, especially TV movies. So there's a lot of even TV lighting in a lot of scenes, like the areas where there's more dramatic lighting. It's usually additional stuff like the lights in the mini mall at the beginning or when they're at the concert. But you very rarely have dark shadows really delineating any of the scenes that they're in. Even scenes that are outside and it's dark usually are very well lit because it's New York. Like when they're in the rooftop looking at the canister for the first time.

09:55
Case Aiken
It's very rare that you have harsh shadows, like actually obscuring anything on this, which was pretty common in the first movie. So this feels more like a TV thing. And I know that one of the notes from the producers is they wanted this to be more like the cartoon. And that's all part of going into.

10:15
Mike Urban
That process another way that taking that note and putting it into being. It more like the cartoon. If you notice the Turtles, they've all got their weapons and things like that. But very rarely do they actually use them on the bad guys. Whereas in the first know they were, know, fighting with the weapons. These were more like the weapons are extra props for us to do different ninja kicks and things.

10:38
Sam Alicea
Like, yeah, they use the weapons, but they use the weapons more for leverage. Like Donatello stabs the ceiling and then uses it to disappear according to him. And then he kicks someone from the, you know, stuff like that, where it's a little more not fully slapsticky sticky because there is still martial arts behind it, but there's a lot more humorous moments in their battles.

11:04
Case Aiken
Yeah, but it is definitely toned down. Like the big note was like, yeah, less attacking people with weapons. I'm not sure if I even see Raph Sigh at any point in this movie, which is just a purely stabbing weapon. So what are you going to do with it? Aside from disarm someone maybe that wouldn't already be kind of rough on kids. In the first movie, Leonardo had several spots where he goes for a real swipe at someone with the sword. Usually there's a duck or an avoidance or a block, but if he had connected, he would have just taken a foot soldier's head off. And those are humans. They're not robots like in the show. And in this, it's none of that weirdly.

11:45
Case Aiken
This gets into the whole thing where the worst weapon is also the one that parents were most afraid of and also legitimately could hurt the kids the most, which is the nunchucks. Parents groups, especially in the UK, really objected to nunchucks in use, and as a result, they weren't really allowed to use it at all. There's only one scene where someone actually wields them around, and that's actually April O'Neill when Kino finds it. And there's a fake out scene earlier where he takes sausages that are, like, linked together and uses them as if they were nunchucks. And that was cut in the UK.

12:16
Mike Urban
It was cut.

12:16
Sam Alicea
Really?

12:17
Mike Urban
I did not know.

12:17
Sam Alicea
That's a shame because the series of puns that comes from that scene are fantastic.

12:23
Mike Urban
They're wonderful combat the missing link, all of that gold.

12:29
Case Aiken
And next time I'll use mustard.

12:33
Sam Alicea
I'm sorry to those people in the UK that didn't get to see that.

12:37
Case Aiken
Yeah, well, the Blu ray put the scene back in.

12:41
Mike Urban
Is mustard some kind of an insult in the UK? I'm not sure.

12:48
Case Aiken
Oh, the silly Americans talking about mustard. Yeah, I mean, the whole ethos was to make this like a more family friendly movie. It's very similar. And we talked about this movie specifically when we talked about Ghostbusters Two, where by the time the sequel rolled out, there was a cartoon that had a big popularity and it was very popular with kids, like the original Ninja Turtles comics being a parody of Frank Miller. Stuff is dark and grim and has a lot of violent kind of undertones to it. And the movie picked up from that and the TV show went its own way. And then you get this movie where they're trying to have two masters, like they're trying to appeal to the movie, the previous movie, but at the same time make it more like this cartoon. And so all those weapons, they're not used.

13:33
Case Aiken
We get things like the Foot Clan are way less effective in this movie. And part of that is that their numbers have been decimated, but there's some really obvious shots where there's just like a bunch of them standing in the background being like, yeah, we're going to come at you eventually.

13:49
Mike Urban
That was one of the things that this rewatch for me, was like, wait a second. So you've got tatsu. And actually in one scene, even the Shredder just like standing there with their arms folded and tattoos like and there's nothing they're not doing anything if they actually all fought the turtles, they might have actually had a chance, but they're just standing and watching and like, oh, yeah, he's going to get kicked, whatever. It's a totally different thing. Whereas I think the first movie, I felt like there wasn't any time where there were big bad guys just standing there doing.

14:23
Case Aiken
Like they I don't think they ever really fight tatsu in the first one. And then Shredder obviously whoops their a** at the end of the movie so badly that Splendor has to actually step in. So, yeah, it's rare where you have someone kind of like looking on, but then you also constantly have shots of a whole bunch of the foot just standing there. And then they leap into action. And finally we're getting into this. All this movie shares a lot of beats with the first movie. Like, Raph goes off and gets captured on his own kind of situation. Kurt's the same way as what kind of happens in the first one, but in that one, it's like, how do you expect to beat me? And then it's like, good answer, when he's like completely surrounded.

15:06
Mike Urban
Better joke. Yes.

15:08
Case Aiken
Right. Then they cut to him already being out. Because, of course, weirdly, the first movie, The Conservation of Ninjitsu Rule, while it kind of is in play, it is avoided at a few spots, and that's one of those spots. The Conservation of Ninjitsu Rule is a trope meme that exists on the Internet of like, if you have a lot of ninjas, you'll beat their a**. And if you have one ninja, you can't win because the ninjutsu spread too thin. And this movie is definitely going on with that because every time there's like a big fight, everyone's fine. They come at you one at a time. Raphael is able to just kind of dance around the fight. It's just nowhere near as intense. And the stakes aren't there.

15:50
Case Aiken
Like, they'll capture him, they're not going to kill him, which was kind of the implication of the first movie. They're like actively trying to cut their heads off with axes while the building is burning down. No, this is just a junkyard. We're just going to beat you up and then tie you up. Different stakes.

16:03
Mike Urban
Yeah. The other difference, and I think part of this it's an interesting commentary on the movie, by the movie, is Splinter is really on the turtles the whole time about like, hey, were you seen? Were you seen? Were you seen? And this whole movie, the turtles are basically like, nah, weren't seen. But they were totally not trying to not be seen. Whereas in the first movie, there was the whole idea of actually being stealthy and things like that. They were trying to do that in the first movie. In the second movie, it's like, okay, well, we know the kids just want big bad action and things like that. So I feel like that was a bit of the writers going like, listen, really? Ninjas should be trying to be on the download, but no, splinter is going to make a comment about that.

16:51
Mike Urban
And that's what we're going to get.

16:53
Sam Alicea
Yeah, I think it's too it's really fun because well, I think they basically were like, we're going to do this just for the joke at the very end with Splinter being like, oh, really? Work harder. Holding up that newspaper, showing that they've been like, I feel like the writer was like, this is going to be great. But I also feel like I feel like because of this, the turtles learn nothing this entire movie.

17:18
Mike Urban
Oh, yeah.

17:21
Case Aiken
That's my biggest note on this movie, which is none of them have arcs.

17:25
Sam Alicea
They don't have arcs. They go they do. They're not even mildly suspicious that Raphael has gone missing. Considering what happened the last time, you'd think they'd be a tiny bit more worried. And I know he's a hothead. I know he goes for walks, but he hasn't come back and no one's heard from him. And last movie, he kind of got his a**. Like, maybe you guys would be a little more alarmed. There's just like, small things where it's just like, weird. Have fun. Don't get me wrong. I smiled from beginning to end, rewatching this partially because just nostalgia. I was like, I don't know if I can actually watch this objectively. I am enjoying all of the terrible puns. I am enjoying all of the slapstick action. I am ridiculously a child right now, and I don't really care and almost have notes.

18:22
Sam Alicea
But I do, right? Because they don't really learn a lesson at all. And in fact, they lie to master Splinter and they're like, nope, not seen at all. You guys did a dance break with Vanilla Ice. What are you guys talking about?

18:36
Mike Urban
Oh, no, but that was okay because they didn't know they weren't in costumes. People thought they were in costumes. Right. The turtles could have sold it that way. They're not that smart. They're teenagers.

18:48
Sam Alicea
I mean, that's what April is there for, right?

18:51
Case Aiken
Right. Spin the news. And I mean, like, Vanilla Ice rolled with it pretty well, too. So all of a sudden, they're doing a musical number. Everyone there was like, these costumes. I love this place.

19:02
Sam Alicea
Yeah. Honestly, I will say, as problematic as he is, that song is still a BOP.

19:08
Case Aiken
Oh, yeah.

19:08
Sam Alicea
Still a BOP.

19:10
Mike Urban
Yeah.

19:11
Sam Alicea
Ninja rap was great.

19:12
Mike Urban
Go ninja, go ninja, go. My favorite part of that scene is where the promoter is like, oh, my god. Who ordered the extras? We got to call the cops. And then some stuff happens and they come back to that guy later. No, they love it. What are you thinking? Why are you calling the cops?

19:30
Sam Alicea
His assistant is like, on the phone, I finally got the cops. No, why are you calling the cops? They love it. Poor guy.

19:37
Case Aiken
Yeah. And rewatching this I was thinking about. So this movie ties in really well with the world of the Ninja Turtles properties at the time. The whole bit with Vanilla Ice and the way, like, Shredder shows up and all of that is exactly what they would then do the following summer with the out of their Shell tour, which I realized was also promoted on Oprah. And they talk about Oprah earlier in the movie.

20:01
Mike Urban
Yeah, I didn't put that together. I completely forgot about the out of their shelter being on Oprah.

20:08
Case Aiken
I had that. It's wild. And it's so crazy looking at this property at this time and then putting the pieces together of like, oh, yeah, okay. So this is the marketing pushes that were going on here's. All the things that they were trying to make sure worked because of this larger franchise that this one movie just was a part of, as opposed to pushing the movie being the thing.

20:31
Sam Alicea
Yeah. How much of a jerk is Raphael really? Like, huge April's on TV, and he's just like, let's change the channel. I'm like, Come on, bro, support your friend.

20:42
Case Aiken
Yeah, that seemed a bit of a pivot right there, because he was the one that was into her in the first movie. I mean, they're all into her in that weird, h****, teenager way, but he was her white knight. And in this one, he's playing up more the rude part of the cool but rude dynamic that Raphael embodies.

21:03
Sam Alicea
Yeah, absolutely. It was really weird. I was like, Why is he like and then it kept cutting away from us hearing what was on the news, which kind of felt like important things to the plot like we got afterwards. Right. That stuff was going on with this particular company and the scientists and things like that, because Splinter and then we had the next scene with the scientists. But that was kind of important information for all of the characters. And instead we get Raphael just being like, we need to change. Like, what about Oprah? I was like, Such a weird decision.

21:47
Mike Urban
You'Re living in the house rent. I mean, I did appreciate how that was all framed up with the tgri. And I have to say, the prop work for the giant dandelions and everything like that. So you knew what was going on. And things after Rafa interrupted was excellent.

22:10
Case Aiken
Yeah. So the dandelions, I think, are really good detail in terms of setting up, like, oh, cool. The mutagen is this strong that it can make this tiny little weed into something so big I thought was really cool detail. But it's also one where it would be subtle enough that someone might overlook it. If they're just, like, walking by, they may not pay attention to. What is that big flower? Oh, it's this thing that we are all intimately familiar with because it's just a very common weed in the United States. So I thought that was a cool detail there of how they were setting it up. And it was nice to be like, yeah, all right. You can see how this flower is this tip off of potential power for Shredder. And I like the kid that the Foot Clan sneaks into.

22:53
Sam Alicea
So I thought that was really great because you actually have him. He's actually one of the few people that has a line in the Foot Clan meetup at the junkyard. So he runs in and he's like, Is this it? So you get like a good shot of his face, you hear his voice, that kind of thing. And he interacts. We understand. We've seen this space. This is very good because this is for kids, right? So we're like, oh, yeah, that guy. So when he appears again and he's talking to April and he kind of asks her a slightly suspicious question about what follow up questions she would ask the scientist. And she's just like, don't worry, I get paid to be nosy, and walks away from him. You know that he's actually there to follow her. Oh, no.

23:39
Sam Alicea
And then he finds it and he actually confirms from you that it is the dandelion. He verbalizes, he sniffs it and he goes, Dandelion. You further know, because you know something's wrong because the scientists run over and like, oh my God, oh, my God, what are we going to do? But then he also goes there and then you know, because you know that he's from the Foot Clan because you've seen him before and you know he's following April. You know that he's going to take this information to Shredder. Oh, no. It's great. Wonderful tension.

24:10
Mike Urban
Yeah.

24:11
Case Aiken
Yeah. And I like the cut to that scene with Shredder where he's like, I told you to follow her. But master, this is even better. I like it where it's just like yeah. Shredder is very much this totalitarian controller who doesn't want anyone to interrupt him, but is not dumb enough that he would get mad for someone obviously capitalizing on an opportunity.

24:29
Mike Urban
Yeah.

24:30
Sam Alicea
Does that make him a good leader? I think it does.

24:32
Case Aiken
I mean, I think it does. I wish Me the Shredder was effective until the turtle showed up.

24:38
Mike Urban
The virtues of he. He's good at making speeches, as we saw in the first one.

24:44
Sam Alicea
That's true.

24:45
Mike Urban
He's good at delegating because basically he comes up with the big ideas and then he has tatsu do it, who also delegates things and then, of course, know, whips people into line because he's like the best person at raging ever.

24:59
Sam Alicea
And listen, we know from the first movie that he's also good at recruitment.

25:02
Mike Urban
True.

25:03
Sam Alicea
He is good at recruitment.

25:08
Mike Urban
And pushing cigarettes. Anyway.

25:11
Sam Alicea
Yep. Yep.

25:13
Case Aiken
Well, I mean, you get Sam Rockwell to do that.

25:14
Mike Urban
That's true.

25:19
Case Aiken
So let's talk about the actual Ooze part, like the Ooze plot, since we're on that note right there. So I think it's introduced really like I love the scene where we get David Warner as the professor. I think that him babbling while it's like, oh, we're Live is a really nice introduction there. April is wearing this it's not a jumpsuit, but it's like this pantsuit combo, this navy blue with, like, a red collar. And I'm like, man, if that was yellow with, like, a white collar or, like, a white undershirt, that would have been such a perfect nod for fans of the show. It would have been great. And it's just because it looks very dichromatic, and it would have been fun if we had played into more of her classic look.

26:06
Case Aiken
But then the decision to introduce toka And Razar, and I know a lot of people wanted Bebop and Rocksteady. I would have loved Bebop and Rocksteady. I am so glad that we finally got Bebop and Rocksteady. On the next Ninja Turtles two, the one for the Bay Turtles one, which is not a terrible movie. It's actually, like, a lot of fun. And Bebop and Rocksteady are some of the best parts of that. But I understand, making this movie, they would want new characters for a whole host of reasons. One, Eastman and Lear didn't really like Bebop and Rocksteady. They just thought that they were kind of like one note jokes that they designed for one of the early toys that happened to become major characters on the cartoons. So I get that. But also, you're making the new property.

26:48
Case Aiken
You're going to want new merch. You're going to make new characters. I get it. And Token raza look really cool. They're, like, a good set of henchmen villains.

26:58
Mike Urban
Well and they give us the best line ever from the Shredder when he walks out. Like, babies. All babies. I use that's. What I see when I pick up my infant son is these babies. Anyway, sorry. Yeah.

27:18
Case Aiken
And then later, when he actually is, like, controlling them, where it's like, Go play. Have fun.

27:23
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

27:24
Case Aiken
Masters say, have fun.

27:26
Sam Alicea
Is shredder a good father? He might be. I mean, he was reluctant at first. He was reluctant at first, but then he accepted them.

27:36
Mike Urban
He stepped.

27:39
Sam Alicea
Just I'm trying not to become a Shredder apologist in this, but this feels like this is what's happening to me.

27:47
Case Aiken
He's doing okay here. He's a bit blinded by rage throughout this whole movie. Tatsu was like, should we rebuild the foot? And he's like, nope. Revenge. And rebuilding the foot is the way to go. If he had been thinking clearly, honestly.

28:01
Sam Alicea
Yes, that is a misstep from him. But I understand. I mean, he was thrown in a garbage can garbage truck and crushed and.

28:09
Case Aiken
Compacted and then technically died.

28:11
Mike Urban
Except but for the reason of movie not yes.

28:15
Sam Alicea
Right.

28:16
Case Aiken
And was not originally supposed to be in this movie. It's because this movie was rushed that they were like, well, f***, let's bring back Shredder. Okay? But I think fans didn't really notice for one. Thing. The idea that Kesey Jones just murders the Shredder at the end of the movie, just casually where he because he literally says Oops, and then hits the switch yeah. Is a dark turn for that character.

28:35
Mike Urban
I don't know. I always thought Casey Jones murderer was good. I mean, in the third movie, he's Casey Jones samurai babysitter.

28:48
Case Aiken
But yeah, shutter coming back and trying to get revenge makes enough sense. And for us, watching this back in the day, I saw this in theaters. I saw the first one in theaters. I was a huge Ninja Turtles fan, and the idea that Shredder would just come back and keep doing what he's doing made sense because that's what the show did. And you know what? He came back, and he carved his helmet to be, like, even sharper, kind of like buzzsaw blades. It's even shredderier.

29:18
Mike Urban
Somehow he's living up to his name. He went from well, he could have called it greater, I suppose. But anyway, sorry.

29:29
Case Aiken
But we get to and raza, and in terms of design, I think they're great. I think apparently they're like Kit Bashes from the Henson Workshop, like, taking parts from other kind of designs for things. So I think there's some skeksis wow. I can't pronounce words right now in there for toca and possibly some of the design work that would later go into dinosaurs and raza. Clearly, they have lots of walk around like fur bodies, so they mash them all together, kind of unify the design trends. And you've got some pretty cool looking some cool looking monsters right there that are big and scary and voiced by Frank Welker.

30:08
Mike Urban
Yeah. And I love that they're not trained. There's nothing to that. They're just very simple monsters. And the way they showed in the movie is basically, the Turtles can't handle them. They can't punch them, they can't kick them. They don't care. They're just an obstacle to get across. And they bring a lot of comedic stuff to it, too, as well.

30:37
Sam Alicea
Yeah. I honestly think that we should have a ritual of eating donuts before any and all attacks.

30:45
Mike Urban
I agree.

30:48
Sam Alicea
I think that should be a ritual that sacred donut eating ritual.

30:52
Case Aiken
Yes. Although I was thinking about this one where they're real lucky that they had to freeze the ooze into ice cubes and put it in the donut. They could have just put poison donuts and just killed the two.

31:07
Mike Urban
Well, now you're getting into what you would change about them.

31:11
Sam Alicea
Yeah. And also, this is a kids movie, and they're not murderers. They're not Casey Jones. They're the ninja turtles. I think before we do move on to anything else, I think we do need to talk about Ernie Reyes Jr. As.

31:33
Mike Urban
Think. What did you think, Sam? You brought it.

31:38
Sam Alicea
I I always love him because I used to study martial arts, and he's just got such amazing, clean movements. I love him in every movie. He's always just so active. He is here to just kind of be that. Like, what is that, like, the kids passenger, like, Whoa, I met the turtles kind of thing, right? So that's kind of like the role he's playing the line in the beginning with the girl with the hitting on them, and then she's mean to him, and then he's meaner. Not great joke, not great misogyny did not fall well. Definitely a normal thing for the so definitely, like, peak eighty s. Ninety s writing there. So that was still not great. That didn't hold up. But everything else was pretty great.

32:30
Sam Alicea
I mean, he's a pizza delivery guy with a sense of heroicism, runs into a space, is overwhelmed, like, has a couple of great kicks in, and then there's way too many guys. Why are there so many people on that heist? By the way, there is a lot of guys on that heist. What are they splitting and who are they working for? That is never answered. Also, they are all wearing regular clothes, so I don't know.

32:58
Mike Urban
Flannel. Lots of flannel.

33:00
Case Aiken
Yeah, they've got the leggings, like, the stockings over their head so you can't make out their facial features.

33:05
Sam Alicea
But then when he's like, who are you, kid? He takes it off like, Bro, there's probably a camera. You've given yourself away.

33:13
Case Aiken
That's true.

33:14
Mike Urban
I don't think those criminals in the beginning were the brain trust of crime.

33:18
Sam Alicea
No. In fact, I kind of felt like they were just like the crew from the movie. They were like, we just need people to be in this scene is what it felt like because of the outfits they were wearing.

33:29
Mike Urban
Keep it under budget.

33:31
Case Aiken
Well, I love the inclusion of Kino as a character. I realize that there are some people who see him as, like, the Jar Binks equivalent, but I think that's unfair. And I think he's such an audience surrogate, like an avatar for all of us as kids, being like, oh, I can be like that because he's 18 in this movie. He's so young in terms of how Hollywood cast stuff, and he's able to fight these guys. He's like, did I mention I study martial arts? It's not that he's gifted a power. It's not some scenario like the Blue Ranger where he is just like the little kid just allowed to tag along like he's a teenager. But also, they're the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, so they might better trained at this all. They fought the foot before.

34:12
Case Aiken
But aside from possibly some biological differences just by virtue of the fact that they are scientifically mutated turtles, he's theoretically kind of in the same bracket. So it's like, it's nice to have a human friend. It makes so much sense to have a pizza boy be a friend to the turtles. I love that detail. I love the opening montage of all of the people eating pizza with the famous Rays like parody famous Royce.

34:38
Sam Alicea
I only have one thing about it. There were no napkins in any of the folds. And as a native New Yorker, that was very upsetting to me because I just felt like that pizza wasn't very good. If you got good pizza, you need some napkins or something in that fold, some paper to catch the grease, that's a good pizza. Other than that, those are not going to be good slices. So I was like, these slices do not seem that delicious to me because there is not the tuck and fold that I expect from good pizza.

35:10
Case Aiken
The aggressively long cheese shots that were going on throughout all didn't sell you on it?

35:15
Sam Alicea
No, because it looked cold. I'll tell you what, now it looked cold. It looked cold to me. You can tell. You can tell when pizza is cold. You can tell when it's hot. I've eaten too many pizzas on the walk, and none of those pizzas looked like they were fresh. You know what? That's my pitch. Change the whole pizza scene, make it fresh pizza.

35:38
Case Aiken
You see here's my head cannon, though, which is that we know that Keno is very easily distracted when he goes to deliver pizzas.

35:44
Sam Alicea
You are not blaming Keno on this is not his fault. He's driving.

35:51
Case Aiken
I'm not blaming Keno. I'm blaming the criminals that Keno feels compelled to stop.

35:55
Mike Urban
Do we know that Keno was the one that delivered the pizzas? We saw in the beginning, because I'm playing.

36:02
Sam Alicea
It was just people walking around. There were people leaving the pizza shop. I'm just saying that the props department failed.

36:10
Mike Urban
No, I think it's that Roy's pizza is a lesser pizza than Ray's. It's right next to it. People can confuse it and it's like, no, Roy's is always cold and it's just a knockoff.

36:25
Sam Alicea
It's for people who like the taste of, like, day old pizza, like morning after pizza, which is its own delicacy. I'm not judging.

36:34
Mike Urban
I'm just saying I'm from Wisconsin, so the fact that there's just tons of cheese on it was like, oh, yeah, that's what we do here. Cheese capital of the world.

36:45
Sam Alicea
I mean, there were plenty of people that were folding it. Like, there were plenty of extras that knew that's what you should do with a pizza. Congratulations to them. But that's not the point. I did have a problem that there were no napkins.

36:59
Mike Urban
Yeah, well, back to keynote.

37:02
Sam Alicea
And I get it, they were like, oh, we want to see the pizza, but like, nah, it's wrong.

37:06
Case Aiken
Well, yeah, back to keynote. Well, it is nice that we have a pizza delivery boy as a friend who is, like I said, an audience surrogate member who has martial arts experience already, so it doesn't have to feel like yeah, sure he could. Be a little bit of a Mary Stew in the sense that he's able to immediately beat up people, but he's not better than the Turtles. In fact, he's distinctly worse than them when it actually comes to serious moments. He's just almost as good as right.

37:29
Sam Alicea
He's he's training. He's young. And I think that having him there gives you a nice segue for Raph's rebellion, because he's always going to rebel because that's his character. And so he goes off to rebel, and he's going to do what the kid thought. Yeah, we're going to get you recruited. We're going to spy. We're going to figure it out. So Keno actually brings real information right. Because he lets them know that the Foot is recruiting. They're back on the street. They're looking for martial artists. They're looking for young people, just like I just I think that he's worked very well into the plot, and he's.

38:10
Mike Urban
Smart enough to know when he's in over his head. I mean, obviously, in the beginning, when he's know, okay, there's way too many of but, like, when he's in the Foot Clan test, and he's trying to get they get to the bell thing, and he's just looking at it, and then he lets Raphael just rush right in, grab all the bells and hand them to Is. That is perfect. And he's also proving that he's very smart because, okay, he knows I'm a pizza delivery guy. Whatever is happening at April Neal's house seems to involve tons and tons of pizza, like an inhuman amount of you know, he's smart enough to he should.

38:51
Case Aiken
Be buying it wholesale.

38:52
Mike Urban
Right?

38:52
Sam Alicea
Yeah. And he puts two and two together because the turtles pay him for that first pizza that was going to O'Neill.

38:59
Mike Urban
Right. Yeah.

39:01
Sam Alicea
Keno's smart.

39:02
Mike Urban
Right.

39:02
Case Aiken
Well, and also, he seems to be aware of the setting. He has information that we, the audience, especially the kids in the audience, would put together based on all the details. It's like, you don't need to feed him quite as much because he seems to be just aware. It's like oh, yeah. All right, we're going to redo the scene from the first movie where April's boss is there and the turtles are all hiding. But in this case, he picks up on it a little bit faster because he's the smart kid. He's the one who's putting it all together because he's just kind of a little bit more in the loop.

39:32
Sam Alicea
Right.

39:33
Mike Urban
Yeah.

39:34
Sam Alicea
Because he's us.

39:35
Mike Urban
Right. He is us. Although and it was kind of appropriate that at the end, he's like, God, put me in Splinter. I can take the shredder. Help me. I can play. He kind of helps save the day at the end, which is sort of there, but he also kind of screws it up and then enables super shredder to super shred. But I might be getting ahead on that anyway.

39:59
Case Aiken
Well, I mean, the question is, what does Kino bring in the third act? And I would argue that he's not really that helpful at the end of the movie. I think he's better for setting up the plot and looping them in that the Foot is recruiting and all those details. He's really important to act two, like the confrontation with Toka and Razar, with the trap with Raphael. That's all because Kino was there in the first place. But once we get into it's, like, all right, Tok and Raza are going to go on rampage. We have to go fight. He's held back by splinter. And then when he leaves, what he actually accomplishes is he runs into the middle of a Vanilla Ice concert, pushes his way through the crowd, kicks a guy, and then that's it, right?

40:36
Sam Alicea
I mean, what he accomplishes is one of the greatest dances in Ninja Turtle history, which is because he clears the way for the Ninja rap dance. And that is cinematic history. Gold.

40:48
Case Aiken
No, but at that point had already been going on that's at the end.

40:51
Mike Urban
When Shredder's standing up on the speaker, you know, Turtles, I'll just mutate her, this other lady, right?

40:58
Sam Alicea
I mean, that's what I would do. I'd be like, well, it's not working for me. Let's mutate everyone.

41:06
Mike Urban
What did you think of new April? I have some thoughts on that.

41:12
Case Aiken
Yeah. Okay. So as a kid, such a weird. As a kid, I liked her more. And I think, generally speaking, she's fine looking back and really having much warmer feelings for the first one. Now, I think that Judith Hogg, who was April Neal in the first movie, I overall prefer she feels like more of a real character, whereas this feels like someone playing the part of April O'Neill. In this case sorry, just got the name screwed up.

41:40
Mike Urban
Paige Turko.

41:40
Case Aiken
In this case, Paige Turco. Yeah. I think she sells it as being, like, a news anchor. I think she comes across as being like, yeah, that is the type of woman who would be a reporter. And I'm impressed that she bought a place in Soho so fast after a place in the Village burned down.

41:58
Mike Urban
True.

41:59
Case Aiken
And it's a pretty dope space, and it's cool that she lets them stay with her. I think that pickup there from the first movie is really nice, but it is then weird that she's just like, oh, it's April O'Neill. I don't know. Every time they recast, sometimes you get scenarios like Iron Man Two where Don Cheadle walks in and you see the back of his head and it's just like, it's here. Let's just deal with it. This one, I think it's the suit actor for Michelangelo, is the guy at the buzzer when she's coming in being like, hey, they kind of do that, but they just roll right into it really quickly.

42:32
Sam Alicea
Yeah. I don't really have a problem with her. I think she's fine. She's fine. I think her role in terms of her character in this movie is not quite what it was in the last movie. And so I think it's kind of, like, almost unfair to judge the actress's performance in comparison. Because in this, she's a character who's just this is her reality now. Right. She comes home, she's got four very messy children and their father who meditates all day and they order pizza all the time under her name. This is her new dinner forever. And she's just constantly cleaning up after them. I think one of the nice moments is when she walks in and she's like picking up the different things around the table and she's mentioning which of the turtles used which things.

43:30
Sam Alicea
She's just, you know and the exercise band for the arms is like Raphael's and things like that. And it's kind of cute because she's like tidying up the place. But I think in the first movie, because April is like discovering them, getting the scoop, figuring out all this stuff. She's just got so much more to do in this movie.

43:50
Case Aiken
She has an arc in the first yeah, right.

43:51
Sam Alicea
There's nothing for her to do in this film. She uncovers a secret by interviewing and she tries to follow up on that. But most of the follow up is done by the turtles themselves. Most of the explanation is done by Shredder. April doesn't really have she's there. That's about it.

44:12
Mike Urban
Yeah. My biggest problem with her isn't the acting, it's the writing. I felt like as a character in the first movie case, both of you are right. You said she has an arc. That's cool. But also, I feel like April in the first movie is not a pushover. She is a fighter. She is part of the turtle team, I feel like. And she's also sticking it to the police in the first movie. The police chief guy is the same actor between both movies. And in the first movie, she is like busting his chops left and right. And in the second movie, it's basically him just being kind of a smug a** and just doing nothing. That's what we do best. Or whatever that he says. Let somebody else handle it. That's what we do best is his line there.

45:09
Mike Urban
He basically just trolls her and goes away. And I feel like that is the biggest characterization. Difference is that April being given the opportunity to be tough and there present.

45:24
Case Aiken
Yeah. In the first movie, the reason everything happens is because she is doing too good a job investigating the foot clan. And so they try to kill her. And also the cops don't want to deal with the whole situation. So there's all this tension going on with her. Whereas in this movie, she's mostly a bystander to observe things and it's exacerbated by virtue of it being a different so, like, it just feels like a character who's been slotted, like across the board. This movie, there's so many recasting choices or just reset choices that you do lose some continuity from the first one, which would have been nice.

45:56
Case Aiken
Like Chief Stern showing up again is great, but he only shows up for one scene, and it's so much later in the movie that by this point, we've seen that the news station she works at is different. Her boss is different, and that was kind of a bummer there. We never even hear about Danny, the kid from the first movie, and that's only like, a week before this takes place.

46:19
Mike Urban
Casey Jones and her are in a relationship. We never see him, but I know there's like, Casey Jones is a little take him out. He's too violent for this movie.

46:28
Case Aiken
Studios had a lot of issues with the first movie, and so I don't want to put anything on Paige Turco in this movie. She's 25 when this movie comes out, I'm not expecting her to have control over how the studio depicts the character that she's being slotted into, particularly because she's coming in, because Judith Hoag was fired, because she spoke up about people being injured on set and unsafe working conditions for everyone. And the producer is like, well, she's too mouthy, and we have to get rid of her. That's a big bummer.

46:57
Mike Urban
Yeah. And I have to say, I know you already did this episode, but didn't you already do Turtles Three?

47:03
Case Aiken
Yeah, we did Turtles Three a long time ago.

47:05
Mike Urban
But I have to say, I thought April's Paige Turco in Turtles Three gave a fine performance with a lot better stuff to do, being a part of the team, even though Turtles Three is Turtles Three than what she could have to work with here.

47:21
Case Aiken
Yeah, she had a real story in this case, aside from her providing a place for them to live and having a couple of spots where she just happens to be the person covering the story, she doesn't necessarily ever even really come off as someone who's investigating teacher I. She's just the reporter they send to be on site to interview them during a press conference, basically because they invited the press to the whole decontamination thing. It's not her story. She's just, like, reading off the press release.

47:49
Sam Alicea
Yeah. She does have a scene in there where she wants to fight to stay on the story, and she feels like something's there, but other than that, you don't really get anything, and there's no follow up to that scene. She doesn't go with the turtles to get news. She doesn't go to speak to someone new. It's just not in the movie. I mean, maybe that was time constraints. Maybe they decided, no, we need to make the short and sweet because this is a family friendly film, and that would get too bogged down. But, yeah, she has, like, one moment with her boss where she's like, I'm sticking with it, and that's about it.

48:32
Case Aiken
Yeah, it's much more surface again, it's more like an episode of the cartoon, which for me, at the time, I was totally fine with because I like the cartoon a lot. But I think it is why this movie doesn't hold up as much as the first one. The first one is a surprisingly complex story in terms of what is going on with all these characters and their motivations and how the turtles are brought into it all. Whereas this movie is mostly just shredder is out for revenge and so he's going for collateral damage by way of having April followed and by trying to get access to this thing that might be a weapon that he can use against them. But it's very much like the turtles versus Shredder, and there isn't a whole lot else in terms of people's stories.

49:15
Case Aiken
Like Stern would have been great to have appear more times in this movie than just the one time that there's a damage report. It would have been really nice to feel like this is a continuation of the story from the first movie. But aside from good continuity in terms of them living with April at the start and then again, like, the appearance of Stern later, there isn't a whole lot that really ties this to the first. Yeah, sure, Shredder like, got hurt by them and is like, mad, but once you get over the fact that he has a few additional scars on his face when his face was already f***** up horribly by them, not a lot going on there. Again, this movie just like it's kind of like a placeholder movie.

49:54
Case Aiken
It's an episode of the show that happens to be on screen and at least it came quickly. Compare this to Ghostbusters Two where it was like years and years and then it just happens to be like an okay movie as opposed to a great movie. And if it had come out two years after Ghostbusters One, I think people would have been much more okay with it. This one came out again less than a year after the first one. A lot of us were really excited for it.

50:18
Sam Alicea
Yeah, I mean, listen, I think as a kid, the only thing that I was upset was not seeing Bebop and Rocksteady and maybe that Casey wasn't in it. I think as a kid, other than that, it hit all the notes for.

50:31
Mike Urban
Like I was I'm very sure that I used the VHS, wore out the VHS to the same level as the first one with this second movie.

50:42
Case Aiken
Yeah, I probably even liked this one more as a kid because again, Toka and Raza are exactly what I was here for. Like, oh, giant mutants fighting mutants. Awesome. This is great. They're fun and weird designs.

50:54
Sam Alicea
You here for giant mutants? What? No. Oh, my God. Shocking.

51:03
Case Aiken
Before we move too far on, I do want to talk about probably my favorite thing in this movie, the thing that I was so obsessed with as a kid, which is their new lair. They have such a like so they find this abandoned subway station that is like real ones in new York.

51:20
Sam Alicea
I thought it was really cool as a kid. I still thought it was cool this time when I was watching it.

51:24
Case Aiken
Yeah. So it's based on the City Hall station for the New York subway line, which is a station that is real. And the problem is, it's just too short for any modern subway trains to stop at. And so as a result, the trains just go through it, but people can see it. So it's like an Easter egg for people who are familiar with that specific chunk of the New York subway system. And it works so well as a layer for them. It looks really cool. It makes sense. Like, they had to move from their first one, so they find this one. It's a nice upgrade in terms of it being more of a set as opposed to a bunch of tight tunnels that they happen to be shooting in.

52:01
Case Aiken
For the first one, it looks like a place that kids would really want to go hang out at. It looks more like the cartoon show having a big place for them. In fact, it looks better than the lair in the cartoon show, which was usually just kind of like generic sewer backgrounds, but dry. Like, here, it's like, okay, cool. We've got a subway car sitting on a track. We've got all this stained glass and this big space. All of that's very cool. You can have Donatello walking around holding the payphone as if it was just like a landline, which I thought was like, a great know. Very cool. And I'm so glad it comes back for the next movie. I wish that set had become just like a big part of the Ninja Turtles franchise.

52:37
Mike Urban
I swear they used that set in that very short lived heam Saban produced teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Live Action.

52:45
Case Aiken
Yeah, I finally picked that one up, but I watched it as a kid but didn't love it. It was things I do need to rewatch it at some point just to see it with fresh eyes.

53:00
Mike Urban
Can we make a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles TV show with a Power Rangers TV show? American budget, but without any footage?

53:11
Case Aiken
And can we have a girl turtle with b**** and magic powers?

53:14
Sam Alicea
Oh, yeah, sure. Why not?

53:18
Case Aiken
And then they'll cross over with the Power Rangers in space.

53:21
Mike Urban
Oh, gosh, I forgot about that.

53:23
Case Aiken
Yeah. And that's all coming off of this. Such a cool air. If it's reused in that show, great, because it was such a great set for them. There's a weird scene at the start of Turtles Three where they're, like, doing a dance number in it as the opening credits, and it's like, all right, well, I'm at least getting this cool set. That's pretty cool. And this movie has some cool sets. Like, the junkyard also looks pretty good. And the lab that they're in, despite the fact that it's, like, overly like, oh, we're in a science place. So there's just weird Led lights everywhere. It's very visually interesting.

53:59
Mike Urban
I feel like that was designed there's got to be people on the cruise that play video games. I'm thinking there's that silicon brain in the middle. I'm thinking that somebody here plays a lot of Konami games or Metroid or something like that, with all the lights and everything like that going around. I'm like, yeah, this is designed by a gamer.

54:20
Case Aiken
Yeah, well, and this movie just in general, felt very much akin to the Konami Turtles games. The plot is, like super bare bones. It has them just like, oh, yeah. Okay, we move on to this next set piece where we fight the foot, and some of the foot hop in once the first wave are defeated. And so it keeps on playing out in this video game kind of fashion, which is fine. It would have been nice to be deeper and to be a little more interesting, but the actual beats are like, yeah. No, this feels like a Turtle plot that I'm very familiar with. I spent so many quarters on the original Turtles arcade machine, and this would work easily as, like, levels in that.

54:57
Mike Urban
Insert coin to get Raphael back in the.

55:05
Case Aiken
Know. Like, in addition, obviously, then we get the big set piece at the end of the Vanilla Ice number, which we've referenced. But it's f****** wild, right?

55:17
Mike Urban
I just love that. The people are just like, h*** yeah. There's turtles here. Oh, we're dancing. This is quite the show I've been to.

55:26
Case Aiken
Vanilla Ice is like, a huge star at this point when this movie comes out, and it's just like, yeah. They break in like they're having a fight one wall over from where Vanilla Ice is having a concert, wherever it is, some construction site.

55:40
Mike Urban
Yeah.

55:44
Case Aiken
And they get thrown through the wall, and all of a sudden they're in this nightclub where he's doing a big show, and it turns into a big musical number. And again, it looks like the out of their shell tour that they would then go on right down to when Shredder shows up. That's the same kind of theatricality that would go on with that, or it would be like a wrestling match. It's a big stage show with choreography.

56:04
Sam Alicea
Right.

56:04
Case Aiken
But again they had vanilla ice. Like they had actual vanilla ice. It wasn't just like, oh, there's a band playing next door or something. It's actual Vanilla Ice, which is like, such a huge git. But at the same time, it makes this forever. The movie that Vanilla Ice was in.

56:19
Mike Urban
Yes. I love how he's dancing to the same music before that. He just writes the ninja rap.

56:28
Case Aiken
At.

56:28
Mike Urban
The same time that ninjas are fighting right.

56:31
Case Aiken
And just go with it.

56:33
Mike Urban
What was it before? What was he dancing to? What was he rapping about? I don't know. Let's forget it. Ninja rap.

56:38
Case Aiken
Yeah. And then that song was a BOP. That was everywhere when it came. I had the cassette that I would play all the time. All my friends did, too. The ninja rap was just really popular.

56:50
Mike Urban
Well, me watching this time, after a couple of days after I watched the movie again, I was like, man, I really want to hit the Ninja Rap. So you search it on whatever your music service is. But then I discovered that Vanilla Ice did a ninja rap, too. Don't listen to that. He was trying to do his gangster rap thing, that he was trying to reinvent himself.

57:16
Sam Alicea
No, that sounds awful.

57:18
Mike Urban
No, don't listen that one. Unless you want to laugh in a sad way.

57:26
Sam Alicea
Unless you want to cry while laughing.

57:29
Mike Urban
Right. But yes, I thought it was a BOP. It definitely was. It was also when in the middle of the whole Vanilla Ice versus Hammer, which probably wasn't actually a thing, but people made it a thing.

57:46
Case Aiken
Yeah, weird marketing pushes combined with weird racism that always is looking for, like, a white actor or a white performer to fill a niche.

57:55
Mike Urban
Well, there was a Hammer song prominently featured in the first movie. And then there's a Vanilla Ice song prominently.

58:03
Case Aiken
The Turtle Rap at the end, right? The T-U-R-T-L-E power.

58:05
Mike Urban
No, that's a band called Partners in Crime, which might just be some studio musicians, but they use it in all the Turtle movies. No. The MC hammer track for the first one is called this Is What We Do. And you cannot find it on any music service that I've looked at.

58:23
Sam Alicea
I remember the soundtrack for the first movie being, like, everywhere and very big. There are songs that when they come out, I'm like, oh, yeah, that was a Ninja Turtles. So I think they were just kind of following, like, who's popular? Yeah, who's popular? What's going on? Because there was especially a lot of music, basically what you might call it when the foot was taking all the poor kids and kind of bringing them in. So there was, like, a lot of music that was played during that. And so I remember there were a lot of songs that was everywhere on the radio. So they have a history of that stuff. It was natural for them to choose the next person who was super popular.

59:14
Case Aiken
Yeah, I don't think we can convey to someone who wasn't alive at the time how ubiquitous the franchise was in everything. There was a cereal. Obviously, there's toys, but there's, like, sports toys. Like, I had a Ninja Turtles, like, hockey set, like one of those foosball style, but it's like a hockey one where they have different tracks that they move on kind of thing. Obviously, we had the video games. We had a f****** traveling musical show that they would then go on to do. Ninja turtles was everywhere. They had f****** chips, everything. We're talking about full on the apex of the marketing wave the whole 80s. We're going to merchandise everything's, getting a cartoon and toys and all this tie in stuff. Ninja Turtles was like the height of that, which is crazy to think about.

01:00:10
Case Aiken
Just how many random a** things you can find out there. Again. Lucky Charms knockoff ninja turtle cereal. Also pizza flavored chips that would be marketed with Ninja Turtle stuff. They wanted to get into everything. And so, yeah, sure, marketing tie ins with, like, giant pop stars. Makes sense.

01:00:28
Sam Alicea
Yeah. Ninja turtles.

01:00:28
Case Aiken
But it's still so weird to look back on.

01:00:31
Mike Urban
I mean, gosh, it went so deep in there was like Ninja Turtle. I remember hostess Pies being ninja turtle. Hostess Pies filled with green ooze, which was oh, yeah, it was vanilla.

01:00:44
Sam Alicea
I do remember those.

01:00:44
Mike Urban
Yeah, it was vanilla custard just with green food coloring.

01:00:47
Case Aiken
But they did it vanilla icing.

01:00:54
Mike Urban
By the way. Speaking of going back to remember how I said partners in crime might just be some studio musicians? It wasn't. It was actually a DJ group from New York that is most well known for doing teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles related stuff. But they actually did one song on the Vanilla Ice movie soundtrack, cool as Ice. Yeah. DJ Keymaster Snow and MC Golden voice and apparently Kryme stands for keep your rhythm motivating elements.

01:01:24
Case Aiken
Okay.

01:01:25
Sam Alicea
Yeah, it was like the spin that Wheel, I think, was the name of the song that was all over New York radio. And that was from the first movie, too.

01:01:36
Mike Urban
That was, yeah, kid K, which is the singer from some other hip hop band.

01:01:41
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

01:01:44
Case Aiken
But looking at Turtles, one that soundtrack technically like Rocky Five, there's a lot of hip hop that is it feels more urban and part of that is it's the lower budget movie, so they could only get what songs they could get. Even though by the time it were getting the soundtrack put together, it was clear this was going to be a huge hit because the Turtles franchise had become so big. This movie is like, shifting into that early 90s, moving away from like the 80s style hip hop kind of stuff. And hence why your big hip hop track is by Vanilla Ice.

01:02:16
Mike Urban
There was a lot of early 90s tree hugging stuff on this, too, I remember. Just like, a lot of the albums being about pollution and things like that. But, I mean, that was part of theme of the movie, too, is Tgri dumping ooze industrial waste out here to clean it up. But they really hit it home on the album. I have all of these tapes. I know exactly where they are. About 20ft in a box away from me. It's interesting to watch the soundtracks as they change between the movies, but, yeah, the second one, definitely some interesting choices.

01:02:57
Case Aiken
Last thing before we get to pitches, we should talk about Professor Perry, the David Warner's character in this whole movie. Who is the lead person for Tgri. So one thing when I was rewatching it, we get to the end of the movie and he's at the concert and doing like a dance while the go ninja go. He's, like, doing his arms back and forth. And that's actually one of the few spots where there's like really distinct lighting on anyone's face that caused him to kind of glow blue. And I was like, that's right. He's in Tron. He's the main bad guy in Tron. Oh, right. I forgot about that. Which was just kind of a fun moment there.

01:03:37
Case Aiken
But I think he does a really good job of being this character who was originally supposed to be Baxter Stockman, like the fly guy from the cartoon and actually the second villain from the comics. Like, he created the mouse of robots in issue two and was a standalone villain for that issue. And so he was intended to be that character. And then when that was ruled out, because they didn't think they could get the puppetry together for the mousers, which in retrospect, I'm like, that wouldn't have been that hard. I get that. It would be a big project. So the movie that you're getting off the ground eleven months after the first one probably wasn't going to be the movie that you do it.

01:04:13
Case Aiken
But those mousers, like, if you remember, were like very simple, kind of like mechanical heads, just had two little legs. Yeah, it wasn't a lot of articulation. So I think that actually would have been really cool if, like, Hinson Studios was doing those puppets, but they didn't. So they then were like, well, what if he was something else? And so there was a thought that this character was going to be the body that was controlled by the Utrom. Krang oh, really? Yeah.

01:04:41
Mike Urban
Interesting.

01:04:43
Case Aiken
And that this was just a human suit that the alien was wearing. And so that was supposed to be the Secret of the Ooze. That the Ooze itself had extraterrestrial nature origins to it, which also the cartoon had that, too, because it was technology from Dimension X. So they could have had that element in there and had more of a secret. But they decided to pull back on that detail.

01:05:05
Mike Urban
Yeah, they didn't do the whole Utram thing for quite a few years in the United States. And I think it was the 2002, 2006. I don't remember when that series was.

01:05:15
Case Aiken
Yeah, but the 2000s animated series. Well, yeah, that's where they were a big plot point. And then Shredder was actually that one and all that. But Krang was really popular amongst people. And were all familiar with Krang. I don't know. I like him. David Warner in general, is a charming actor. I like a lot of the moments with him. All it is a spot where The Secret of the Ooze is kind of just the title because there isn't a lot to it like even him saying it was an unknown chemical that got exposed to radiation would have been more interesting if he actually knew what was going on.

01:05:50
Mike Urban
The secret of the ooze was the friends they made along the way. Sorry.

01:05:57
Sam Alicea
Well, that would be great if they.

01:05:58
Case Aiken
Had swayed Touka and Raza there, you.

01:06:03
Sam Alicea
Know? I guess the thing is, this is a very fun movie with not a lot of substance.

01:06:10
Case Aiken
Right.

01:06:11
Sam Alicea
Or secrets.

01:06:12
Mike Urban
It's an excuse to put popcorn in your mouth.

01:06:15
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

01:06:16
Mike Urban
For children, ideally.

01:06:18
Case Aiken
Like a cheese flavored popcorn. Like one that has kind of a pizza kind of flavor to it.

01:06:22
Sam Alicea
Yeah. Or just have pizza.

01:06:24
Case Aiken
Or pizza.

01:06:24
Sam Alicea
Just get pizza.

01:06:26
Case Aiken
Yeah. Because it's still a fun movie, and there's nothing that I object to in this movie. I just wish there was a little bit more, because the first movie had a bit more going on. But why don't we speculate on what we would have done? Because it's a pretty short movie that had some room, because it's coming off of a ridiculously successful predecessor. So I'm curious what you all think about that. So why don't we take a break, and when we come back, we will speculate on what this movie could have been.

01:06:58
Sam Alicea
Hey there, screen beans. Have you heard about Screen snark?

01:07:01
Case Aiken
Rachel, this is an ad break. They aren't screen Beans until they listen.

01:07:05
Sam Alicea
To the show fine potential. Screen Beans. You like movies and TV shows, right?

01:07:10
Case Aiken
I mean, who doesn't? Screen Snark is a casual conversation about.

01:07:13
Mike Urban
The movies and television shows that are.

01:07:15
Case Aiken
Shaping us as we live our everyday lives.

01:07:17
Sam Alicea
That's right, Matt. We have a chat with at least one incredible guest every episode, hailing from all walks.

01:07:23
Case Aiken
We've interviewed chefs, writers, costumers musicians, yoga.

01:07:27
Sam Alicea
Teachers, comedians, burlesque dancers, folks in the.

01:07:30
Case Aiken
Film and TV industry, and more. We'd be delighted for you to join.

01:07:34
Mike Urban
Us every other Monday on the certain.

01:07:35
Sam Alicea
POV podcast network or wherever you get your podcasts, fresh and tasty, off the presses.

01:07:41
Mike Urban
What?

01:07:42
Sam Alicea
No, that's not can I call them Screen beans now?

01:07:46
Mike Urban
Fine.

01:07:48
Sam Alicea
Screen Beans.

01:07:53
Mike Urban
So tune in, and we'll see you.

01:07:55
Case Aiken
At the movies or on a couch.

01:07:57
Sam Alicea
Somewhere, because you're the whole Screen Beans now.

01:08:05
Case Aiken
And we're back. And we're back.

01:08:11
Sam Alicea
Are we back?

01:08:12
Case Aiken
Tune in for the next turtle time. All right, so, Mike, we have one rule in terms of the order for us giving pitches, and it can all be collaborative with us, like chiming in. I'm just not allowed to lead before Sam. So as our guest, you may select to go first, or you may select Sam to go first, and in which case I could potentially go after Sam, and then you could go last if you wanted. But I'm just not allowed to go before Sam is the one rule.

01:08:36
Mike Urban
Well, I've been thinking about it a lot since I watched the movie again, and I got to say, I feel like I'm not entirely sure what I want to pitch, so I'm going to let Sam go first.

01:08:49
Sam Alicea
Darn. I'll blast this one because I'm not sure either. No, no, that's fine. I will say this. I feel like this movie is one of those movies where I feel like the filmmakers set out to create a family friendly film that was fun, that was very much like the cartoon that people were familiar with, that they could draw even more audience into and create even more toys. And I think that they did their job. And in that way, I feel like does it need another pass? Not really. However, I will say that from someone who's going to try to be objective and not just a huge fangirl about all of this, there are certain things that I wish were kind of more explained. And I think that the ooze needed a secret.

01:09:48
Sam Alicea
I think that there's this line where Donatello maybe it was Leonardo, but one of them says, know all these years not knowing what we are, and now it's this, and we're not special. And it's like this really deep, emotional thing to say, right? Because when you think about it, the turtles have been living with this secret of this question of why are we like this? Why do we look like this? No other turtles look like this. We walk. We talk, we eat pizza. We live in sewers. What is up with this? And then all of a sudden, there's like this almost answer, right? And the movie says it, which is great, but then they just kind of never really revisit it.

01:10:42
Sam Alicea
It's like the precipice for why the turtles have to go to the lab to find out about the ooze, but they kind of get derailed by meeting the foot, and we never actually get to why this is or even something that makes the turtles feel better about their origin. Right. This is like a really sad thing that Donatello was just sad. And as a kid, that flew right over my head. I was like, oh, they're going to find out their secret. Right? But I was so distracted by the fights that I didn't care that we didn't get back to it. But as an adult, I'm kind of still sad. Because I want something that's reaffirming for the turtles and their existence.

01:11:23
Sam Alicea
I need something in this that lets them know that maybe their origins don't need to be special, but that's okay, because they're already special. I need something that's a little more warm and tingling to kind of wrap that up, because I feel like there are little throwaway things here and there. Just like with April fighting her boss, you feel like there's supposed to be more there. You feel like there's supposed to be her getting into trouble. And you could say, even though I love Keno, you could say that we don't need Keno, that we could have April kind of go to investigate the foot. We could say that she could be the reason Rough goes off, because Raphael's always adored her. But I do love Keno, so I'm not going to do that.

01:12:14
Sam Alicea
But I do think that she needs to kind of be an alarmist. I think she needs to go to the police or the authorities because she believes that there's something wrong with the Ooze. I think that she should be reporting on that. I think she should be pushing all the doors. I think she should be reporting on things. So I need a couple of things. I need more development for April, and I need whether it's Kang or just I need something to be the real secret of the Ooze. I need an explanation from the scientist what happened, because it's not there. And I don't know how we get there. I mean, do we let them follow? Look, listen, kid, sam thinks, like, Kang is the answer, right? Like, let's make this alien s***. Like, Kay said that.

01:13:06
Sam Alicea
I was like, yes, but I don't need that to be and I know that puppetry and making the puppet, this is soon. I don't know if timeline that can be done. But I need to know the secret of the Ooze. And I've given no answers. I've only given questions. But guys, that is how I fix this movie. What is the secret of the Oath? Even if there's just someone doing Kang's voiceover.

01:13:33
Mike Urban
Crang. It's Crang.

01:13:34
Case Aiken
Crang.

01:13:35
Sam Alicea
Crang. Do I see Kang? You think he's saying Kang leading into your brain? Oh, my God. Crang. I'm bad with names as it is.

01:13:47
Case Aiken
That's all good.

01:13:48
Sam Alicea
I hit 35 and names just flew out my brain. So crang. If there's like, a voiceover that we're familiar with, maybe we could have gone cartoon actor. I don't know. I feel like there should have been something, even if it was just a tag at the end about aliens. I need to know the secret of the youth that would fix this movie.

01:14:11
Case Aiken
Yeah, if I can piggyback off of you, because I also don't have really hard notes about this one. It's not like a big restructure because I think the beats work fine. I think that where everyone moves from point A to B. All work AOK go to Tgri, et cetera. So, yes, I would say have the alien tie in. I realized that it was cut. I think you could make it work. Like it's the like they could pull a Quato esque kind of stomach alien thing pretty easily. And we only need it as a teaser at the very end of the movie with here's, because this shot won't save the movie.

01:14:50
Case Aiken
But this is my pitch for a shot at the end of the movie, which is that David Warner walks into the lab from the beginning or from earlier in the movie where he was disposing all of it, takes the Ooze, puts it in the thing to dispose of it so that we actually see him destroy it. And then he can say, finally, it's done, and one of the other lab guys can walk in. It's like, is everything okay? It is now. And then he can open his shirt, his stomach open, and it can be something to the effect of the turtles trust us.

01:15:25
Sam Alicea
Something to that effect.

01:15:27
Case Aiken
They'll stay out of our way, or they won't investigate any further. They think we're just like a harmless human company because it says that the TJR disappears completely. Their offices all are emptied out. Everyone just completely books it, which is suspect as f***, considering that a week earlier, they were digging up radioactive material that they were acknowledging to the press. But yeah, reveal that the aliens have left Earth or something like that. Really lean into it right there. But you don't need a lot like, you could honestly get away with one close up on this puppet setup, which, honestly, with his shirt obscuring everything up until Krang's head, you could have maybe the indication of some metal for the framing of the cavity that Krang is sitting in there, and then just the puppet.

01:16:13
Case Aiken
And it just needs to be some sort of squid looking puppet that, like I said, hints and studios could put that together in an afternoon. It would not be that big of an effort on that front. And you could keep David Warner's voice or maybe make it sound like more a little modulated or something. Or you got Frank Welker. He could easily cover that right there as, like would have been great. So I think that would be, like, a nice detail there to be like, what's going on? What is the secret of the use? Oh, it's extraterrestrial in origin. I think that works really well earlier when he says an unknown combination of chemicals.

01:16:45
Case Aiken
He could say a unique combination of chemicals, indicating that he actually does know it, but he's just not going to share that information just like, every time he's talking about it all. I think that would be just like, a nice vibe there. He's not in cahoots with Shredder. He got captured by Shredder. Krang isn't a comic character. That was a character created for the cartoon using the Utrom designs. And they're benevolent in the original comics. So you can kind of play it where this character might be antagonistic. You don't even have to call them Krang. You could just have it be an Utron, and then the kids who like the cartoon will be like, It's Krang. And the people who like the comics can be like, it's neutron, and then just move on with your life.

01:17:26
Case Aiken
So I think that would be really nice there. I think that we need arcs. I think Donatello is the easiest one to insert an arc for. And oh, my God, we did not talk about how it used to be Corey Feldman, and that was recast for this. Like Donatello and Raphael. Raphael's less obvious. Like, I think the voice actor does a pretty good job of sounding like the raph from the first movie. But yeah, Corey Feldman was like the big star of the first one. It's like and Corey Feldman role. And because he was in a lot of stuff at this point in terms of controversies, they didn't bring him back over for this one. There might be some money involved. Like, who can really say? Is it bad publicity? Is it he needed more money? Maybe it's both.

01:18:06
Case Aiken
But he wasn't for this one. He does come back for number three. I think that Donatello is a good Donatello. One of my few objections with the original Ninja Turtles movie is that Corey Feldman didn't feel like the right voice for Donatello. That character from the cartoon who is like, this big nerd doesn't feel like the Donatello we got in the first movie. And he does feel like that here. And I would have liked if there was more going on with him being curious about the Ooze. I think he should be the one that is insisting that they watch the report and is really interested in it and all. I would love to have a scenario where when we're in April's apartment, at first we see that they have boxes of their s*** from their lair that they have brought up.

01:18:47
Case Aiken
And I would love for him to have a map with strings attached to it all, trying to indicate he's been researching the Ooze. I feel like he should already be interested in this because the Ooze is a thing that they know about already. 15 years ago, I found four baby turtles in a weird radioactive substance. That's the story they tell every time. There's no surprise that they were hit by some sort of thing. It would be surprising if they did with the original comic thing where it was the f****** radioactive stuff that got daredevil blinded. It was just like fully lean in. Like, oh, this is the start of the Marvel movies, guys.

01:19:27
Mike Urban
Just some other guy running around being blind.

01:19:30
Sam Alicea
Which is why I was talking about Kang. It all ties in, actually. I do want Kang to be in this movie. Or mephisto. That's how I fix this movie.

01:19:38
Case Aiken
Yeah, mephisto shows up. But I think that's an easy arc to put on the character who was more of a background character in the first movie, like the first movie. All four of the turtles have stories with Michelangelo probably having the least of a story to him. But certainly the emphasis is on the relationship between Raphael and Leonardo in the first movie. And I think this movie, they could have put more of a focus on Donatello, maybe Michelangelo, but he is the comic relief, so it's not necessary either. All four of them should have something going on. So I'm not saying raph shouldn't go off again, because that's perfectly in character for him. Although maybe it would be interesting if it was Leo this time.

01:20:14
Case Aiken
And he's the one who thinks, like Kino has a really good plan, but that this could be a spot where he thinks it's a good way to go.

01:20:21
Sam Alicea
Right. Because it's strategic. And Leonardo is known to be strategic.

01:20:26
Case Aiken
Right? Yeah. Like Raph is the hothead for it. But Leo having a good plan. I could see him actually kind of rolling with that could be fun. Just so it's not Beat for beat.

01:20:34
Sam Alicea
The same movie it would have made. One of my criticisms is that wouldn't you be alarmed if Raph went missing the same way he went missing before? So it would have been like, oh, well, it's he's pretty level headed. He's probably OK, we haven't been able to get in contact with him. And then you could have had a funny line where Raphael was mad because he had to hold too many boxes because Michelangelo is not helping him because he's eating.

01:21:00
Case Aiken
Like that all fits there. I would have liked when they're in the junkyard fight if Splinter was actively firing more arrows than just his initial one. Yeah, like if he was acting as like a sniper. And I realize that this is not the movie where he's going to be mowing down foot soldiers, but he could be hitting things like knocking down piles.

01:21:20
Mike Urban
Of tires or just providing a distraction, giving them yeah.

01:21:27
Case Aiken
Here's a wreck of a car. He hits the steering wheel. All of a sudden the airbag pops open or something and knocks open the door and knocks someone. You could do slapsticky kind of violence.

01:21:39
Mike Urban
You could even pay homage to the first movie where maybe he shoots at the shredder and then the shredder catches the arrow.

01:21:48
Case Aiken
And that would sort of set up some cool stuff with Shredder. Side note on Shredder, the decision to have his face mask be like a grill is probably a bad choice because he's supposed to have a really f***** up face that they have in Shadow. And then once he's got his mask on, you can pretty clearly see his face.

01:22:04
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

01:22:05
Case Aiken
And that's a bad choice for two reasons, actually. Three reasons. Reason one is that you can see that his face is really not that f***** up because they didn't go that hard on the makeup for it. Two, the character is dubbed. So it would have been a wise choice just not to see his lips, period. Because why bother? And three, when we get to Super Shredder and whatever is going on with that outfit, he does have a solid outfit or like a solid metal cover on his face.

01:22:31
Mike Urban
Go, Kevin Nash.

01:22:35
Case Aiken
Yeah. On that note, if Super Shredder had more of animalistic design as opposed to his costume points got bigger, like if it looked like spikes were coming out of his body, which I think the implication that would have been fun. I don't know what the budget on that design, though, was.

01:22:49
Sam Alicea
Right?

01:22:50
Case Aiken
It's cool. That super Shredder is so cool as an idea. I was so into this concept right there. I was so excited because it's like it's a final boss. It's a f****** video game. Final boss. It's perfect.

01:23:02
Mike Urban
And then we just jump into a lake. Sorry. Yeah.

01:23:05
Case Aiken
That shouldn't have been in whatever, the dock that they're on. That doesn't quite make sense. Why is he smashing all this stuff and then they can just jump out into the water? I feel like it should have been inside a structure of some kind that he's, like, tearing around. The construction site they were just at would have been perfect. And they could just retract into their shells and hide under stuff, and that would have been kind of a different thing. Or there could have been a body of water that they leap into, but I don't know. He kills himself real fast.

01:23:39
Mike Urban
Yeah.

01:23:41
Case Aiken
And they have a very easy way to escape. So it seems like him destroying everything doesn't really make sense in terms of just the speed of how it would happen to me, it feels like we'll escape more easily than he'll kill them.

01:23:52
Mike Urban
We escalated. Escalated. Escalated the villainy or the boss here, and then, like, Crap, how do we end this? We just established that they can't fight Touka and Raza now. The shredder is superpowered. How do we do this?

01:24:07
Case Aiken
Yeah, I mean, I get it. Like, him destroying himself, that makes sense. It happens really fast.

01:24:13
Mike Urban
The lesson is that revenge always destroys yourself in the process. Sorry.

01:24:19
Case Aiken
Yeah. But that is the thing, though. I fully agree with that point that they're making. I just think that the scene itself plays out so quickly that it's not capitalized on. It could have been a more interesting sequence there, but yeah, that's my basic thoughts there. I feel like Donatello having a little bit more of a story to him. Like, being obsessed with learning about the Ooze would have really helped. I mean, I feel like the division on the violence is a thing that was hard. They're trying to work with it all. They're trying to really pull back this reputation that Ninja Turtles was too violent. I would have liked a little bit more. I think it could have been justified a bit if they just didn't have their weapons a whole bunch of times.

01:25:04
Case Aiken
If April didn't let them carry their weapons around the apartment, that would have been a detail for Know, because then later they're all doing makeshift stuff. Like, Leonardo has, like, two sticks instead of his swords, but his swords are clearly on his back when they're in the junkyard fight. The actual choreography for the fights are all fine, but some of the shots are too long on them, so you can really see that they're like, oh, okay, now we do this stunt. Here kind of moments. It would have benefited from slightly more rapid cutting, and it would have benefited from them not obviously having better alternatives on their person for how they're fighting at any given moment, but sure. Is that opening fight in the mini mall kind of silly? Yeah.

01:25:51
Case Aiken
Is it kind of fun to see Michelangelo beat up people with a yo also?

01:25:55
Mike Urban
Yeah.

01:25:58
Case Aiken
I was here for it then, I'm still here for it now. But I understand why new people going to watch it who have never seen the Ninja Turtles movies might not dig this one as much as I think they would dig the first one.

01:26:10
Sam Alicea
Yeah. I think if you're a kid, you're probably fine. I think if you're an adult, you might dig the first one more.

01:26:18
Mike Urban
Yeah. So if you're ready for me to go yeah, okay. I think for me, this kind of gets to exactly what your podcast is called. It just needed, like, one more pass, and maybe they didn't have that because of time or whatever. Being eleven months. You're basically like, we're writing as we're shooting here almost. But I feel like just adding some explanations here and there about why things are different. Hey, April just fell head over heels in love with Casey Jones. Why is he not here? Well, I don't know. His grandpa is sick and he's going to take care of him or whatever.

01:26:58
Sam Alicea
Yeah, one throwaway line would have been nice.

01:27:00
Case Aiken
Yeah.

01:27:01
Mike Urban
Or they're not going to use their weapons as much in this movie, I remember to big effect in the very first movie, like, hey, Raphael lost a sigh. And that was the huge plot point in the first movie. So I think just adding these other things, like maybe the turtles lose their stuff, it's not exactly easy to go and find a high quality samurai sword for Leonardo to have. So maybe some of these other things that turtles are sort of depowered a little bit and they have to deal with this stuff. I think that would take care of a lot of that whole thing and also satisfy the people who are like, yeah, they're a little too yeah.

01:27:38
Mike Urban
I didn't I didn't have a lot of notes outside of that other than I think the biggest thing for me that I would change would be there's two themes I got out of this movie. The one was what you talked about before Sam, or maybe it was Case. Either way, it was the whole thing about Donatello wanting to know where they came from. That was one, right?

01:28:03
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

01:28:04
Mike Urban
The other one was that Splinter was talking about like, you're never going to belong in this world. That's not your place. And I think a lot of this movie would better if they kind of explored that, like the turtles finding their own place in the world and feeling good about it. That's another one that was just fell away. They're never going to be able to just go to a movie theater and just be turtles sorry, be teenagers and live with humans and be normal. They always will have to have this sort of secrecy or else everything bad will happen. And making the best out of the family that they found April and Casey and everything like that. None of that stuff was explored, but it was all mentioned.

01:28:51
Mike Urban
So I think adding a subplot of that would actually make very much the movie a lot better. And it would add that arc for them.

01:29:03
Sam Alicea
Yeah, it would just make it richer because I think the newspaper is like this attempt at, like, oh, they kind of have acceptance because ninjas are born at this thing, but it's not really because it's dubbed as a publicity stunt and basically Splinter. Then again, reiterates ninjas are not seen, work harder, that kind of thing. So it kind of still leaves that hanging. Just like you said. There's never quite an acceptance of where they are, where they stand, who they are. All of those big questions that are kind of thrown up and kind of just left in the air just never come down again.

01:29:48
Mike Urban
Right. And that's kind of what makes it more disappointing is the first movie gave it a nice, solid foundation to have the character arcs, and they start exploring the characters. And the second one, it's like, we need to make a buck as fast as possible. And so we got this thing that people like the TV show. And so we know that we want to get more kids butts in the seats. And frankly, it didn't work either because every movie slightly did less well than the previous one, but still a huge hit, but not quite as huge. Maybe in a different timeline. They did sort of do the similar story to this, but actually explored more character stuff. I think that's the biggest thing, honestly.

01:30:29
Case Aiken
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the Splinter stuff because I realized I had forgotten to say anything about that. I completely agree. I think that I love Splinter at the end of the movie where he's like watching the news and he's just like, idiots, and he puts his hand on his head. But there's no lead in scene for that in this movie. So if you were like me and six years old and obsessed with the Ninja Turtle stuff and had watched the first one a billion times going into this one, it feels fine. But I would have liked a scene earlier in the movie where Splinter is talking about how needs to be hidden, needs to be secret, and you've got ample opportunity.

01:31:04
Case Aiken
Like when he has them up on the roof, it's like, this is why we live in secret, because they will take us and dissect us or some s*** like that. Just something to set up a through line of the turtle trying to be secretive. I think this is the appropriate movie for them to come out of the shadows somewhat. Pardon me for referencing both a video game and a movie in the series, but it makes sense that they're more public in this movie, that more people have seen them by the end of this movie, that they go from being completely unknown to being, like, this urban legend of people being like, no, that was performers. No, those are real f****** turtles. I think that's a cool elevation of what they're doing as characters in this franchise.

01:31:48
Sam Alicea
Can I just say sorry. I'm also sad that we don't get any more trench coats because that was hilarious. I know we can't do beat for beat the first movie, but I think trench coats are pretty. I think anyone who's a fan of the Ninja Turtles knows that trench coats are used a lot, and I think it's hilarious. And I'm sad that they didn't show up at that first bite for their pizza in trench coats and then have to take them off.

01:32:17
Mike Urban
Oh, man, that would have been good. A nice shot callback to the first movie, too.

01:32:22
Case Aiken
Yeah, they all storm in there in their trench coats, and it's like, who are you guys? And then they drop it, and that's when they leap up or something.

01:32:30
Sam Alicea
I think that's our pizza. Hey, let's help you out. Take off their trench coat.

01:32:37
Mike Urban
Yeah, it would have been good if they made a comment like, we will 100% save every pizza guy or something. Like.

01:32:46
Case Aiken
Some sort of callback to the wise man. Say, never pay full price for late pizza.

01:32:51
Sam Alicea
Yeah, but this is like, never let a pizza delivery man fall to villains. I don't know.

01:33:00
Case Aiken
Yeah, if the pizza delivery man falls, pizza you shall not have, right? Yeah, that's the weird part. This movie has a lot of references to the previous one, but then it would have been nice to have some returning jokes that were striking ones from the first one. There's so many memorable lines from the first movie, and this one has some, too. Like I said, I quote Shredder talking tokyo and Raza all the time, but that itself is kind of similar to what Tatsu says in the first movie. The first movie just has more of a real story. And this one is more like it's fine. Again, there's cool set pieces. Everyone looks great. Shredder's too purple, but that's like, kind of its own thing.

01:33:45
Mike Urban
He has a beautiful cape.

01:33:47
Sam Alicea
He does.

01:33:49
Case Aiken
I'm super down for the beautiful cape because he had a beautiful cape in the first one, but he's like sparkly purple in this. And I'm like I think it's the fact that it's glittery. He's a ninja lord living in a dumpster, but he's wearing glittery purple.

01:34:03
Sam Alicea
It's because people throw out glitter, and glitter gets on everything. Case, once glitter glits on your suit, you're not going to get it off. It's not his fault that someone threw out stuff from Michael's when he was.

01:34:16
Mike Urban
In the garbage truck. He didn't really get smashed. He got out of the way, but his cape got smashed into a glitter dump. And then it fused.

01:34:26
Sam Alicea
Yeah. Head cannon approved.

01:34:28
Mike Urban
It suddenly made him fabulous.

01:34:34
Case Aiken
Oroco shocking. Yeah. So I'm so glad to revisit this movie, and I'm so glad to speculate on what could have been done, because there are certainly good questions on that. I think that the tight timetable for this movie made some of the more elaborate kind of suggestions impossible. Like, Baxter Stockman with the mousers would have been really cool. But that's not the movie that comes out eleven months later. That's the movie that comes out two years later. I don't think it should have been a big gap, but they wanted to get this one out immediately. And to be fair, eleven months later, were chomping at the bit for the next Turtles movie. So makes sense. You're chilling.

01:35:12
Mike Urban
We had short attention spans.

01:35:15
Case Aiken
I can't wait another well, and that's the problem with the franchise. It was a kids focused franchise, which means that you need to keep them into it. You need to keep them interested, and eventually the next thing is going to come. And if you are the studio producing this, you want to get as much of that juice out as you can before the squeeze stops happening. And by the time you get to Turtles Three, that's when interest had started to wane. But I have a thesis about Turtles movies, which is that there is no bad Ninja Turtles movie. I have enjoyed every single one of them, even the first Bay Turtles. It's still fun and fine. It's just like, yeah, the designs are stupid.

01:35:51
Mike Urban
Tank turtles. Tank Turtles. Yeah.

01:35:54
Case Aiken
Turtles Three is like yeah, there's a lot that we could say about it because we did. And you should check out our Turtles Three episode from way back in the early era of the show because we go into great detail about that. But this movie is fun and fine. And Mike, I'm so glad that you brought it.

01:36:09
Mike Urban
Thanks. Yeah. I really enjoyed talking about it with you.

01:36:12
Case Aiken
Yeah. So if people want to find you, follow you, check out stuff that you like, I know that Sacred Cows is on know, like, what was it and where can they find you and who are you?

01:36:24
Mike Urban
Okay, well, if you were listening to the beginning of the show, I'm Mike Urban, and I am the on hiatus host of Sacred Cows Tonight. It's a movie and TV review podcast. It actually went through, like, two eras. One where were very heavy researching, and one where we changed formats to be more like a talk show, but also talking about movies. And yeah, we actually spoilers did an episode about the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movies. Actually did several. We've done other movies that you might like, but our big gimmick is that we always do sketches, both about the movies and sort of in an MST Three K style, about our own silly metaphor about being bad podcasters, which kind of actually has sort of an ending before we temporarily laid down the show.

01:37:17
Mike Urban
But, yeah, you can find that on any podcast platform of choice. And you can also follow that on at Sacred Cows Pod on Twitter. I'm on Twitter at White Morph, and I tweet about random things there mostly whatever dumb thing I'm interested in or commenting on other people's jokes. So maybe I'll podcast again soon, but for now, I'm a podcaster at large, so if you're interested, maybe I'll do your show.

01:37:45
Case Aiken
Well, I'm so glad to finally get you on. Like I said, it's been great getting to know you over the years, so.

01:37:50
Mike Urban
It'S been too and it yeah, great getting to know you. And, Sam, it's been great to meet you for the first time.

01:37:57
Sam Alicea
Yeah, wonderful.

01:37:59
Case Aiken
Yeah. Sam, where can they find you and follow you if they happen to enjoy this episode?

01:38:02
Sam Alicea
So they can find me here on another path, and they can sometimes maybe catch a glimpse of me on the discord if I remember that it exists. And then they can't find me anywhere else because I will be buying several different types of pizza, taking them into the sewers to find my Ninja Turtle friends. With napkins for the correct fold, with the correct grace. But if you have any complaints about anything I said, or just want to talk about Ninja Turtles or giant monsters, you can find KSAT.

01:38:36
Case Aiken
Well, you can find me on Twitter at Case Aiken, where you can come at me for my opinion that the turtles are right. You should put sprinkles on your slices of pizza. I think that just makes sense. Obviously. Go for it.

01:38:47
Sam Alicea
That is worse than pineapples.

01:38:48
Case Aiken
It's a sweet and savory combination. That is just Chef's kiss right there. So you can find me there at Case Aiken. You can find me on Instagram at Kessel Coletto Five, because I am a legion of superheroes nerd and a mythology nerd. You can find the show on Twitter at Another Pass, where you can find out updates about what's coming on. As a side note, we haven't talked about this. This is our 151st episode. So when this drops, we are in a new era of the show in that a lot of podcast players only let you go back so far. And also, it's been a long time and Sam wasn't a part of the first hundred episodes. It's crazy that Sam has been a part of the show for two years now.

01:39:28
Sam Alicea
That is also crazy.

01:39:29
Case Aiken
Yes. Yeah. Time just flies on that one. But so, starting next week, we are going to be releasing old episodes, but with our commentary at the beginning and end, kind of the way that we did for the Another Pass at Another Pass for the Star Wars. I love it because those were on a different show. Those were soft pilots that were on the certain POV podcast that launched this show but weren't actually a part of it. So we're going to be going back and doing those on the off weeks between episodes. So if you're wondering why there's an episode in your feed next time for a thing that we already talked about, it's because we're going back and getting Sam's thoughts on it and seeing if I've changed my thoughts about it and just commentary on where the show was.

01:40:10
Case Aiken
Did I know how to edit audio yet? Spoiler alert for the first ten no. So check that out. It's going to be fun. We're going to have good conversations about it. I might be doing some trimming if there's spots that are just like dead air if it's too much of a tangent. And there will be new material for us to talk about both at the beginning and end of the episodes. So check those out even if you did listen to them. But I also know that it's not easy libson, or at least on my pocket cast on my phone, I can't go back to the first episode of the show. It only goes back so far. So we wanted to make those accessible and we thought that would be a good way for us to have second thoughts about some of these movies.

01:40:53
Case Aiken
So that'll be starting next week and you can find that@certainpov.com or wherever you get your podcasts, just like this show. And just like so many other great shows on our network, such as Screensnark, which is a wonderful casual conversation that our editor Matt and their host Rachel Quirky Schenck have with cool guests all the time. It's a fun time. They have amazing people that they bring on and they talk about the movies that influence them and then just what their lives are like and what do those things make them think about their lives and what does it say about their lives. So it's really fun conversation. So check that out. Check out all the other great shows@certainpob.com. Check out our discord server. There is a link all over our website and in the descriptions of all of our videos and all that.

01:41:38
Case Aiken
Come share sneak peeks for check out sneak peeks for upcoming episodes. Check out memes that we're all sharing. Just chat with us. We're nice, we don't bite. It's a fun community. Check that out and then tune in for the next episode, the next proper episode, because the next episode that's dropping in this feed will be us talking about Return of the Jedi, because that was our first episode of the show. But the next actual episode of the show. Sam, what is coming up?

01:42:02
Sam Alicea
Well, next time we'll be talking about Highlander Two the Quickening. But until then, if you enjoyed this, pass it on.

01:42:14
Mike Urban
Thanks for listening to certain Point of view's Another Pass podcast don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on itunes.

01:42:23
Case Aiken
Just go to certainpov.com another Pass is.

01:42:29
Sam Alicea
A certain POV production. Our hosts are Sam Alicea and Kate Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm. Our logo and episode art is by Kate Aiken. Our intro theme is by Vin Macrie and our outro theme is by Matt Brogan.

01:42:43
Case Aiken
It is definitely helpful. We weren't really doing it when we first started having Matt come on and at a certain point he was like could you please do something for me?

01:42:54
Sam Alicea
Poor Matt. Look how abused you Kate. No, I just torture Matt about like unlike me, a good friend stops by, plays with Otis, all that stuff.

01:43:06
Mike Urban
It is good to have an editor and it's good to treat them well.

01:43:11
Case Aiken
I'll say the first part is good. CPOV so certainpov.com.