Case and Sam are joined by Joseph Mastropiero to talk about a formative Rankin and Bass fantasy cartoon, The Flight of Dragons.

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Transcript

(Subject to Error)

00:00
Case Aiken
It's going to be an interesting conversation on that one because all my notes are like, well, if I was the DM, but this isn't A-D-D game. But is it?

00:07
Joseph Mastropiero
It feels it.

00:09
Case Aiken
I was digging for information. I found information about the source material. I have no information about the production itself.

00:14
Joseph Mastropiero
It was so tough. Like, there's nothing there.

00:17
Sam Alicea
Yeah, because it's trapped in the world of magic.

00:20
Case Aiken
That makes sense.

00:21
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, we're thinking too logically.

00:24
Sam Alicea
That's what it is.

00:25
Joseph Mastropiero
And find the information.

00:26
Sam Alicea
You're trying to use logic to find information. You're not going to find it.

00:32
Case Aiken
Welcome to certain POV's another pass podcast with case and Sam, where we take another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. Let's see how we could have fixed them. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the another past podcast. I'm case Aiken, and as always, I am joined by my co host, Sam Alicea.

00:50
Sam Alicea
Hi.

00:52
Case Aiken
And today we are going to try to suss out the difference between fact and fantasy because today we are digging back into the roots of my childhood love of fantasy. And we are going to be discussing the 1982 Rankin bass animated, in my opinion, classic. But I understand that a lot of people haven't heard of it. The flight of dragons. And for that conversation, we are joined by Joe Master Piero. Hello, Joe. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I'm so glad that we've been connecting online in general, that you've become a very active part of our discord community for our tabletop discussions and for wanting to do some fantasy stuff, because were kind of in that mode. Because the Dungeon and Dragons movie just opened this past week, the week that we are recording this podcast. Time is weird.

01:39
Case Aiken
So were definitely in that kind of vibe. And just tell people a little bit about yourself.

01:43
Joseph Mastropiero
My name is Joe. I am a stay at home dad. And when I'm not trying to wrangle my nine year old son, I'm just enjoying life and trying to build some ttrbgs and living. Just enjoying myself.

01:59
Sam Alicea
That sounds great. That's living the dream. As far as I'm concerned.

02:05
Joseph Mastropiero
Being a stay at home parent definitely has its ups and downs.

02:07
Case Aiken
Yeah. As someone who has recently joined not the stay at home part, but the parent side of things, I can imagine what many of those ups and downs.

02:18
Sam Alicea
Baby chaos reigns supreme.

02:21
Joseph Mastropiero
Oh, yes.

02:23
Case Aiken
But I am looking forward to, as my daughter gets older and older, to introducing her to all kinds of animated movies. And I'm definitely going to include this one. This was a movie when you suggested it, I was like, oh, fuck, yeah, I remember that movie. I loved that movie. And Sam hadn't seen that movie, but I was, like, pumped about it because I remembered specific details. And I realized when I was watching, it was like, oh, this is the exact kind of nerd that I am and also the exact kind of character I always play in a DND game.

02:48
Sam Alicea
Honestly, when I was watching this movie, I was like, if case were a movie.

02:53
Case Aiken
Yes, exactly.

02:55
Sam Alicea
I was just like, this is such a case movie. There are times where it gets drawn on far too long and you're like, okay, you've gone on a tangent now. And then there are times where there's, like, action, and that's very case. And then there are just times where you're like, wait, what? Why? Okay, yeah, that's nerdy. Go on.

03:14
Case Aiken
No, there's dick and fart drinking jokes in this movie. There's, like, a lot of death in this movie. There's a zombie wolf at one point who's a good guy.

03:24
Sam Alicea
He is amazing. There will be no slander. His dumb name.

03:32
Case Aiken
Yeah, no terrible names. It's definitely someone on the spot being like, fuck, gorbash as a name.

03:39
Sam Alicea
Gorbash is actually technically one of the better names of this film.

03:43
Case Aiken
Also true. There's a lot of craziness going on in this all. There's James Earl Jones is the main villain, which is amazing.

03:50
Sam Alicea
So good.

03:51
Case Aiken
Yeah. Like, this is exactly the kind of pc I play. Even when I'm playing smooth, cool characters or stoic knights or even like, I can't help but be like, but wait, how does physics work for this? That's. And I realized this movie might be, like, all of that for me. So thinking about this movie, and I was like, I really distinctly remember two particular scenes before I started watching the movie, which was specifically being taught how to fly or being taught how the dragon breath works in relation to how they fly, where it was like, oh, okay. So they eat minerals and they break it down. And I remember the whole, like, you have stones in your gullet thing to do all that, oh, this is really cool.

04:30
Case Aiken
And fill up a sack of hydrogen and the fire is just a byproduct of it all. I remember that exact scene, and then I remembered the fact that one of the ways that he wins at the end is by explaining the physics of where the sun's position is versus our ability to see it. And I knew before I even started watching this movie, like, oh, these are the things that are all about me, where it's like the nerdy cross section of science and fantasy and stuff. Because when I'm a DM for dungeons and dragons, the things I am dming are always, like, set piece stuff where I'm like, here's the application of this magic thing, but going off of a physics thing.

05:06
Case Aiken
So it's like, here's a magic treasure, like boots of lightning or something like that, but it's all in this muck of shallow water, and you get electrocuted every time you touch it until you have to get it out those kind of, like, set pieces, or, like, I had one where here's a big iron tunnel that they're in, and they have boots with Lodestone so that they have to walk on the walls. Using science and then magic together is always really exciting for me. And that is this movie. That is exactly what this movie is, because it's just a fucking d d game, but with, like, a nerd DM.

05:36
Joseph Mastropiero
Oh, yeah.

05:37
Case Aiken
So, Joe, since you were the one who suggested, what was your association with this movie? Like, when did you first come across it?

05:43
Joseph Mastropiero
I watched all the Rankin bass films when I was a kid as I was a big nerd and into fantasy, and my father was a big nerd into fantasy. So I'm pretty sure we owned the book flight of dragons. I know we had, like, tons of dragon textbooks and books on heroes and monsters because my dad was huge into that stuff. So it just got me into that frame of mind. So I've been watching movies like this since I was a little kid.

06:08
Case Aiken
Nice. Yeah. I want to hunt down that book now because it looks super interesting. So for people at home who are not familiar with this 1982 obscure tv movie, the movie is kind of sort of based on two different books. The name the flight of dragons comes from a book, the Flight of Dragons, which is a pseudoscientific breakdown of how dragons function, which I think is amazing. I love all those kind of books. Like, I have all those after humans or the dinosaurs, if. What is it? The k two e event never occurred, if the crazy patience period instead. Yeah, exactly. What would they look like in the current geographically mass space? Those are so cool. I love all of those.

06:51
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah. I love speculative evolution, speculative biology. I'm huge on that. While I was doing a little research on the movie we watched, I remembered that there's another thing that based themselves off by the dragons. There was, like, this british BBC dragon documentary where they used that book as well to kind of build it, but much more of a realistic science documentary style, which was pretty neat.

07:18
Case Aiken
So that book by Peter Dickinson is this fake textbook on how dragons work. So that's the name and that's where a lot of the nerdiest stuff in this movie comes from. And then it also comes from a book series by Gordon R. Dixon. Not to be confused, Dickinson called the dragon and the George, which at the time when this movie came out was the only book in the series. It has since gone on to have like eleven books, which is remarkable considering the timetable on it. It was like 76 was that book and then 1990 was then the start of the rest of the series and then just kept on going.

07:53
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, I'm glad to try to snag them because I've never taken a look at them.

07:56
Case Aiken
Yeah. And I skim through summaries about the differences and what's going on in there. Clearly there's a lot of similarities because that's where the actual story is coming from. But then they have this extra meta element where they decide to change the main character to be literally Peter Dixon, the author of the Flight Dragon.

08:14
Joseph Mastropiero
Let's just throw the author in the movie. Let's throw the book in there. It's amazing.

08:18
Case Aiken
So it's John Ritter and it's wonderful. I love the fact that later in the movie when he is merged with the dragon Gorbash, there's kind of a two's company situation going on here, which is just like fun for me.

08:33
Sam Alicea
His body was being used and he didn't even realize. Go on.

08:37
Case Aiken
I know, yeah, but I mean, at least to everyone's credit, it wasn't intentional.

08:42
Sam Alicea
Yeah, that's fair, that's fair.

08:44
Case Aiken
And they very quickly are like, no, he's here. He's like literally just asleep. I can feel him.

08:48
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, he's back there.

08:49
Case Aiken
Yeah, that was all good. And like Gorbash was already. It's not like Gorbash went on the quest with them that he was going to go on that quest.

08:58
Sam Alicea
Gorbach was down for the.

09:01
Case Aiken
A little too down, frankly. He was like, fuck yeah.

09:03
Sam Alicea
He was like finally. But honestly, I feel bad because he missed everything. It's like, that's true. Maybe he'll remember stoked for the journey. And then you wake up and you're like, hey, it's my buddy. He's alive. Wait, what are you talking about, Sir Peter? Oh, well, yeah, when we're going to go through that thing, at least he.

09:27
Case Aiken
Didn'T lose out on being the actual hero in those moments. It's not like because Peter is freed from him for the actual confrontation with. So, like, it's not like Gorbash has to be like, oh, wait, hold on. Peter did that instead of me. Like, basically Peter just took over him walking. Yeah, pretty know. That's not too bad. So it's this metal element of it being Peter Dickinson, who is English and not from Boston. It's even weirder where it's like, okay, so it's like kind of, sort of. We're pretending that the author of one of the books sort of. And I was like, oh, well, maybe Gordon Dixon is. And no, he's from Canada.

10:06
Joseph Mastropiero
Not. They just do it in Boston for no good reason.

10:08
Case Aiken
Right?

10:09
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

10:10
Joseph Mastropiero
And it doesn't have a Boston accent. No one has a.

10:15
Sam Alicea
He really. But he is trying to join the.

10:19
Joseph Mastropiero
Yes, the dragon society of know.

10:23
Sam Alicea
There's a nod to England. Get off his.

10:28
Case Aiken
No, I'm just saying how amazing would it be, like, if they had leaned into the Boston thing or the british thing or the canadian thing, if he was like, man, flying's wicked hot, eh?

10:39
Sam Alicea
Imagine for the whole movie Gorbash.

10:44
Case Aiken
Or if it's super canadian and he's like, sorry about. No, no. Why did I have to breathe?

10:52
Joseph Mastropiero
Sorry. Get used to this, buddy. Oh, man. You wouldn't even know it's Boston. Except for the throwaway line where he's like, too bad I'm in Boston, right?

11:04
Case Aiken
No, exactly. They go really hard on that.

11:09
Joseph Mastropiero
Oh, man.

11:10
Case Aiken
It's like the old comic book shorthand of no smoking in this whatever building they're supposed to be in as a way of just being super clear, like, where they are.

11:20
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah. The points that they want to hammer, they really hammer.

11:23
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

11:24
Case Aiken
So the science stuff, I super hardcore, remember, and then you watch the movie, and when I say it's a dnd quest, I mean it's a d and d quest. There are four wizard brothers, one of whom is like, fuck people. The other three are like, no, but people. And they're not allowed to fight. So they're like, let's assemble some champions and have them go into Mordor. Oh, sorry, not Mordor. Omadon's.

11:46
Joseph Mastropiero
To get a different circular wearable object.

11:50
Case Aiken
Exactly. Here's some magic items. And we're going to get your paladin and we're going to get your ranger and your elf. Because this is still like, oh, yeah, it's elf.

11:59
Joseph Mastropiero
Not d for anything.

12:00
Case Aiken
Yeah, this is still a DNd area. And then they're like, okay, well, what about the last champion? Oh, it should be like a leader from this whole thing. Oh, maybe from the future, and then he's fucking making a board game, not a pitch that I can actually make, because it's 1982 and the cultural history of Dnd isn't universally known enough for it to be a thing. But this could have been a Gary Giygax movie.

12:22
Joseph Mastropiero
Hell, yeah.

12:23
Case Aiken
It could have just been like, oh, well, we brought Gary Gygax. He was really into chainmail, but he.

12:27
Joseph Mastropiero
Was trying to figure out how to.

12:27
Case Aiken
Make a fantasy version of it because that's what he's doing. He's trying to make this board game about dragon stuff and had him go on an adventure, and when he comes back, it's like, it's going to be Melf's magic arrow and it's going to be Morton Kane. It's like mystical mansion.

12:39
Sam Alicea
Exactly.

12:40
Case Aiken
Which makes this actual movie the movie that we got, minus the fact that it's weirdly meta in other ways. Exactly what we wanted to pitch for the Dungeons and Dragons 2000 movie that they weren't doing on purpose. It's like, oh, well, that's why. Because clearly this exact movie has been made already.

12:57
Sam Alicea
Yeah, but they still could have made this movie, and it still would have been better just to remake this movie then.

13:03
Case Aiken
Yes. Would it have been better if they had tried to remake it in the Dungeons and Dragons 2000?

13:09
Sam Alicea
We don't know. You know what? No. You know what? No. They would have messed it up somehow.

13:15
Case Aiken
There's one way that I could see it working, which is that if Marlon Wayans was Peter.

13:21
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

13:22
Case Aiken
And avoid all the racist stereotypes for his character.

13:26
Joseph Mastropiero
Any justice for snails?

13:31
Sam Alicea
That was rough. That was rough. You know what is also rough? I cringed every time they talked to a woman.

13:39
Joseph Mastropiero
Or, yeah.

13:43
Case Aiken
When Oren's like, oh, I've known her since she was five. It was hard to get old enough so I could marry her.

13:47
Joseph Mastropiero
So gross. And then immediately when he doesn't have her anymore, he's like, that man there that saved us. It's a woman. He's, like, instantly in love with her. Now. It's like, you will be the one I will marry.

14:00
Case Aiken
And they bang.

14:02
Sam Alicea
It is so. Oh, my God. And then even the first time that Peter meets, I want to say Marlene, but that's not her name.

14:10
Joseph Mastropiero
Melissand.

14:11
Sam Alicea
Melissand.

14:12
Joseph Mastropiero
The woman he built out of his.

14:15
Sam Alicea
Desire, out of my memory, blah, blah. And I'm like, I absolutely hated the end when he shows up because.

14:29
Case Aiken
She.

14:29
Sam Alicea
Left the world of magic to go hang out with a dude that she hasn't known. And listen, I grew up, right? I was a kid in the grew up watching Sleeping Beauty. Sleeping Beauty was one of my favorite things when I was a kid. But as an adult, I completely understand that if you are sleeping and someone kisses you, it is not okay. And there is not enough between these two people for this kiss to be okay.

14:54
Joseph Mastropiero
No.

14:54
Case Aiken
Well, they had already kissed, so at least it's not the first kiss, I guess.

15:00
Sam Alicea
I'm looking at you, Peter. Side eye.

15:02
Joseph Mastropiero
I don't know if it was the version I was watching, but earlier on in the movie, when he tells her, oh, we kissed, I rewinded. And at least in the version I watched, there was no kissing. They were just talking. And then all of a sudden, it's the other dragon with a steel. Don't know. I don't know where the kiss went in my version or if you guys saw it in yours. I was like, they never kissed.

15:24
Case Aiken
Why? I will be honest. I'm watching this with, like, I was holding my baby and watching this with my wife and my mother in law. And were chatting, and I didn't spot the kiss necessarily. And I didn't go back and I was like, oh, I guess I kiss.

15:38
Sam Alicea
It's true, too, because I heard them say the kiss line, but I don't remember kiss. And my add. There's something about music from animated fantasy films from the that makes my add just wander and trail. I cannot concentrate the amount of times I rewound. Wait, someone's missing from the group. Missing from the group. How did they leave? Like, oh, no, he's fine. He was just in the background. It's cool.

16:07
Case Aiken
Actually, I know exactly why I didn't note it, because I was writing down a note because right before that, we see the evil dragon peering in through the window. And it's like, right there and then where they cut away from them hanging out. And it's just Gorbach being like, I swear I smell strange dragon. And he's, like, literally right there. Yeah. It's not like you smell it. Like, he's, like, directly in front of you. Which I get is just animation convenience. It's not even narrative convenience.

16:33
Joseph Mastropiero
It's just like, he rolled a one there.

16:35
Case Aiken
But I was making that note. And that's why I think I wasn't processing that. The kiss didn't appear on fine. But, you know, you cut away and they're all chatting. They didn't show the kiss. They also don't show Oren and I blanking on Danielle, I believe. Yes.

16:50
Joseph Mastropiero
Okay.

16:50
Case Aiken
Yeah.

16:51
Joseph Mastropiero
Much, much cooler name than the original. A lot more cooler names in the book, but that's fine. That's neither here nor there.

16:58
Case Aiken
Oren, though, is a cooler name than Brian.

17:00
Sam Alicea
I do agree on that. Yeah.

17:01
Joseph Mastropiero
Oren is a cool.

17:02
Case Aiken
From a fantasy standpoint, Brian's a great name. I'm not saying, fuck you, Brian.

17:06
Sam Alicea
Why does his armor look like that? I think that's most important. I know that in some of the stills, the little nodules are drawn higher than where his nipples would know, but they're not always. And it kind of looks like his armor has nipples. He kind of looks like Batman.

17:27
Joseph Mastropiero
He gets that vibe.

17:28
Sam Alicea
Definitely mid 90s.

17:30
Case Aiken
But, I mean, he is also kind of a dark knight, so that's fine.

17:35
Joseph Mastropiero
Actually.

17:35
Case Aiken
He's a very bright night.

17:36
Joseph Mastropiero
He's a shiny night.

17:38
Case Aiken
Aside from his weird desire to bed of five year old when he first meets her.

17:43
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah. And he's always talked so loud. Always loud.

17:50
Sam Alicea
I was so mad at him. I actually had the thought that if he was in my party, I'd be pissed off at him when he was in that tavern, because he was like, why are they here? I'm like, shut up, bro.

18:02
Case Aiken
To be fair, that is playing a paladin when you're rolling that character downstairs.

18:08
Sam Alicea
Our precious dragons that we snuck around, because all the other. I was like, shut up.

18:15
Case Aiken
Yeah. Did not put any skill ranks into deception. Is not proficient in that. He's charming. I think he's very nice. When he first rolls in, it's like I wrote through the night. We have time for tea.

18:29
Sam Alicea
I guess that's nice, but I'd rather someone who knows how to shut their trap.

18:33
Case Aiken
Well, again, different character class.

18:38
Joseph Mastropiero
He had points in diplomacy, right?

18:41
Sam Alicea
That's so many pre albums. Orange. Go on.

18:44
Case Aiken
So, before we move too fast from the dragon sneaking up on them with a steel chair situation, it did occur to me that while, yes, it is kind of hilarious that it's just, like, outside their window all of a sudden, and then just all of a sudden, right there. The way dragons fly in this make it work fairly well. They're basically blimps, and the wings are just to direct them. And I'm like, you know what? They would probably smell. And we know that there's a smell, but, yeah, they probably don't make a lot of noise when they fly because they're kind of just, like, float around. Floating around like a balloon.

19:14
Joseph Mastropiero
Little balloon boys.

19:15
Sam Alicea
Yeah. Adorable, fire breathing little balloon.

19:18
Joseph Mastropiero
They do have to let out a lot of flame when they land. But he could have done that further away.

19:22
Case Aiken
He could have been shooting it straight up or something like that. And we don't know how much actual noise is made by the fire because it's never really indicated to be that loud. It's just the fire itself we have to talk about. Just the fucking science of the dragon stuff. I fucking love it. Absolutely goddamn up much. I love the designs of the dragon. I love that they're fat. I think that's so cool. I love that they describe their stomachs as like this multichambered, like honeycomb of filling up with gases. The science is not quite right. Limestone doesn't actually turn into hydrogen when it's dissolved.

19:49
Joseph Mastropiero
No, but calcium does. So I was like, there's enough of a link sciency for this, right?

19:57
Case Aiken
It's close. They just list the wrong thing, but it's fine. I love the goddamn, like, we have to exhale hydrogen to go up and down. And I love the thimble that is the shocking part that ignites the hydrogen. I think that's so cool. And also I think it works really well in terms of all the things they put in there to set up. Why dragons are scary, even if they're not trying to be. Because for them to land, they have to be exhausting flames everywhere. Which means that's why you get this idea of dragons being this terrifying thing of just like, fire everywhere they go. But they can't help it because that's just how they move. It's a destructive aspect of their nature. And then we get into the dragon horde stuff. And I fucking love that.

20:33
Case Aiken
It's like, oh, they have beds of gold. Because that's the only thing that's soft enough for them to sleep on that they don't put on fire. Yeah, I was.

20:39
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. All right, cool.

20:42
Sam Alicea
I think I also especially love the conversation, especially when they're drawing out the diagram because Peter is now inside of Gorbash and has to figure everything out. I especially like it because it kind of links science and magic together, right? Like, it's like, oh, well, but that's actually this. And so the whole thesis in the beginning that people still need magic even if they're walking away from it to inspire them, gets kind of pulled through. Like it's part of the through line. So I thought that was actually really nice. So that's another thing that comes from that diagram where it's like, oh, yeah, that's how they relate.

21:22
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah. I got that feeling where one of the big takeaways for me from the film was that there's two different ways that magic can bleed into our world. And there's the way that they do it through inspiration, and then there's Omadan's way of doing it through seeding fear and greed and things. I like the way those two kind of played off each other in the film. Yeah.

21:41
Case Aiken
And it was interesting that all of their magic is kind of mental to a certain degree. While dragons are very clearly a being that would be associated with magic, the way that the wizards all behave, even Omadon, with his most direct attacks, are usually some kind of illusion or fear based thing. And the others are all, like, inspire people to function. Like, sure, they can get a person back up again who's died, but there's very few points. And also, one of the three lines is that their magic is weaker than it would be otherwise in Ramadan. So, sure, maybe they don't have access to fireball or anything like that, but they clearly have lots of enchantments and illusion spells and maybe some abduration in there.

22:21
Case Aiken
Most of their magic is not, like, pure energy function stuff without it having logical reasons for it to work. There's a lot of science behind the scenes for any of the things that we see.

22:33
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

22:34
Case Aiken
And then it's an early 80s fantasy story. So one, it's trophy as hell. We haven't talked about any of the encounters because the encounters are all just like, oh, they fought an ogre. It's the same fucking thing that you put. It's a random encounter that you would do anyway. They had, like, monsters that tried to drive them insane, and a zombie wolf saved them. Side note, great way to have a druid in your party without having it be too op. So that was fun right there. All the encounters are like, yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah, no, that part makes sense. And we get some tangent flashbacks, which are like, backstory stuff, which is all like, oh, okay, cool. We had that night fight with a dragon. All right, well, that's a one one that we got to see because it's separate.

23:11
Case Aiken
Oh, they were attacked by thieves while they were wandering through the forest. Okay, cool. There's nothing for us to really talk about there because it's all like, yeah, no, these are normal fantasy.

23:20
Joseph Mastropiero
Just like, recapping previous sessions.

23:22
Case Aiken
Yes. Which also I thought while I was watching it, I was like, oh, Melissand's recounting of things felt very much like the role for recap at the start of every session, which also I just kind of enjoyed.

23:34
Joseph Mastropiero
Just the notes. Meloson.

23:35
Sam Alicea
Yes. They're getting chiseled notes. Last time were here.

23:44
Case Aiken
And then this detail, I can't quite see it clearly. Slash. I didn't take a note, or I was using the bathroom at this point. When I came back, I believe that we'd moved on.

23:53
Joseph Mastropiero
That's when the Grubhub arrived.

23:56
Sam Alicea
Okay. Zombies. Wolf names is like Arg, right? Arg.

24:01
Joseph Mastropiero
It's like Arag. Yeah.

24:02
Sam Alicea
Arag. Yeah. Arag. What a terrible name. Such a wonderful character. Very mad about that.

24:10
Joseph Mastropiero
Same like the evil dragon, which is also very close to that, I think.

24:15
Case Aiken
Yeah, that's smurgle or briag.

24:17
Joseph Mastropiero
Briag. Briag. Smurgle, of course.

24:21
Sam Alicea
Smirkle.

24:21
Case Aiken
All the dragon names are hard to say in ways that don't sound like you're just making guttural noises, which I.

24:28
Joseph Mastropiero
Guess makes sense since there are dragons, I guess.

24:31
Case Aiken
Yeah, that part I like the vocal fry effect that they put on Arag. I don't know if this was intentional for specifically the hydrogen part, but it made me think that they were, like, exhaling weird gases while they were talking. I thought that was kind of cool.

24:45
Joseph Mastropiero
That's a nice way to think about it. Yeah. They definitely had this weird fry sound to all the dragons, which was pretty neat.

24:52
Case Aiken
Yeah. I mean, just in general, they were very consistent with, like, oh, you're letting out too much fire. All of that, I thought was really cool. And then monsters had similar kind of things going for it. When they get to the ogre, it's like, oh, well, it's actually like, even though it doesn't look like it in the drawing, they talk about how it's bony on the outside, so it's like, oh, it's an exoskeleton. Like, okay, cool. These are reasons why it.

25:12
Joseph Mastropiero
This way, Bones. All the way down.

25:14
Sam Alicea
Yeah, this movie actually does a really good job in terms of the like, because you have Peter as your surrogate introduction to the world. Does a really good job at setting up how difficult the encounter is going to be ahead of time. Smurg would just be were actually. You can't bite them because it's all bone and you can't do this and you can't do that. So it's like, already setting the parameters of what the fight is going to be, which I think is really good because you kind of get that exposition without. The same way that your DM, your subject master, would kind of give you the lowdown on the character, but you're getting it on the way to the battle to go save your idiot paladin who wouldn't shut the heck up and deserve to be kidnapped.

25:59
Sam Alicea
And so you go and you tell him on the way. I mean, did Smurgle deserve to die for? No, not at all. Much far superior character. Even if there's a dragon, I don't care. Do not defend the paladin.

26:17
Case Aiken
Oh, I'm just going to say he also died, too.

26:20
Sam Alicea
Fair enough.

26:21
Case Aiken
Let's be clear here. Everyone fucking dies in this movie.

26:24
Joseph Mastropiero
But I don't know, if Smurgle gets revived, I don't think he comes back. He wasn't close enough. He was out of the area of effect of the spell.

26:32
Case Aiken
Right.

26:33
Sam Alicea
That part kind of sucks.

26:34
Joseph Mastropiero
He's just ogre like, I guess we're dead. Yeah, I guess we're dead.

26:37
Sam Alicea
Okay. They don't get to live in the land of magic in perpetuity. Even though. Yes, it's like the gray heavens, right? Like, all magic is gone and blah, blah. Doesn't matter. Or in God to be there. He shouldn't have.

26:53
Joseph Mastropiero
He's just going to go after more five year olds. I'm so concerned. Oh, man.

26:59
Case Aiken
I mean, at least it comes off as this whole, like, he has a code kind of thing and that he doesn't really.

27:07
Sam Alicea
Know.

27:08
Case Aiken
I mean, he has like a code of like, oh, I guess what I'm trying to say is he doesn't actually seem that he has honest feelings so much as it's just like, well, I'm supposed know, court the princess kind of thing. I don't know if this.

27:22
Joseph Mastropiero
My wife was. She kind of made it a bit more like, sad to have to say, but like, jacob is in twilight situation when he, like, the type of love changes where at first it's like a paternal brotherly, and then it changes. Like, it's kind of built in. So maybe that's the Viboran's going for, or is it's going to protect this. I just can't wrap my head around protecting this child that I will one day marry.

27:54
Case Aiken
Yeah, let's be clear. Not good. But also, I don't know if it's necessarily inaccurate to the pseudo medieval setting. I don't even say pseudo because it's supposed to be like ancient England. It's just like back when magic used to be real, before magic was pulled away from our, like and all the things that seem weird. Well, that all went to this other magical place. And by the way, we should all be speaking French, but who cares?

28:18
Joseph Mastropiero
No more magic. Now we have cryptocurrency.

28:23
Case Aiken
Because some of the chauvalric elements, that's certainly similar to stuff like in a night's tale, for example, like chaucer, not the Heath ledger movie.

28:31
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah.

28:32
Case Aiken
So there are elements that are like that, and I think some of it comes down to trying to codify in a societally positive. I don't know if it's actually positive for people, but trying to codify some of the weird toxic masculinity components because, hey, buzwords for people playing the bingo at home. Because there is this element of, like, well, he is not the entrusted protector of her from the standpoint of being her foster father or surrogate father the way Cornelius is, but he still loves her. And it's like, because he is not able to wrap his head around how that love is supposed to be, not because it seems purely platonic the entire time. At no point is he really invested in her emotionally. He never hits on her or anything. He has no amorous displays towards her.

29:15
Case Aiken
But his only way of rationalizing what that is supposed to be under the code he lives by is that he's supposed to defend a maiden and take her as his bride.

29:24
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah. The closest we get is when he goes to Peter, he's like, I should punch you because that's my girlfriend.

29:30
Case Aiken
Right. But I think he's actually kind of funny about it and also clearly doesn't actually have emotions connected to that. Like, I'm not trying to defend it, but I'm saying that he is participating in a system as opposed to being the person who is creating that system.

29:44
Sam Alicea
And I will say this. I've been knocking him a lot, and his little nipple hinges. But I will say that the whole idea is that this is a fairy tale, fairy book land. And so the things that would happen there, like, this is the land of magic. This is the land of stories that we've been told many times. And so he's like a character in those stories, trapped by the cycle of those stories, kind of. So you can say that it's still weird, but most fairy tales are.

30:16
Joseph Mastropiero
Oh, absolutely, yeah.

30:18
Case Aiken
Again, there's not really much to really talk about in terms of the actual plot because it's just like magic encounters kind of stuff. One thing I found fascinating is that it's specifically 1000 years in the past. Like, they note that, oh, it's ten centuries, and it's like, oh. So that actually lines up pretty closely with, like, 1066 and the norman invasion and changing the nature of how England perceived the world and actually the introduction of a lot of those chavalic tendencies coming from France by way of the Normans and changing the language as much as it does like the shift from Old English to modern English. All of those elements are there. And it's kind of interesting because there is sort of this degree of the fantasy world that predated more mainland european concepts being introduced.

31:00
Case Aiken
Like Lancelot, for example, is part of the arthurian legend, is introduced by way of the norman conquest. So elements like that coming over and reshaping the perception of the fantasy world that was perceived by the people of the time. The mythology of England is then completely reshaped as French and Norman by way of being a French settled, but Norwegian being viking people. All of that is manipulated and shifted and so forth. And I don't know how much is actually thought about. I think like 10,000 years is also just a fun number. But it is interesting that it happens to line up like, where there is a giant cultural shift in England.

31:38
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah. And that is pretty neat that it lined up that way. The other big number that they point out, the 777 generations doesn't really line up to anything because that means that Peter, he's derived from existed about 21,000 years ago, which would just kind of be pre all of this stuff.

31:56
Case Aiken
Well, that Peter, the one who trained them, is also way earlier relative to their time. So that's also kind of a thing. And you could have had a lot of teen mom episodes in the interim there on their little glow crystals. Really popular show. And also the child brides, like all.

32:14
Joseph Mastropiero
The five year olds taken by the night.

32:16
Case Aiken
Icky, but there.

32:18
Sam Alicea
Horrible.

32:19
Case Aiken
Yeah.

32:19
Sam Alicea
I will say that I think that for half a second, like when Peter was denouncing magic because he had to do so in order to defeat evil villain. There was a part of me that was like, no, but you've seen magic everywhere. I understand thesis and I get it, and magic has to go somewhere else. But I was just kind of like, man, I'm not sure if I like this movie. I'm not sure if I like the message of, like, you have to grow up and it's got to stay in order for magic to be safe. It's got to be hidden and just food for thought. This is not really like a real criticism. That's just personal feelings about how I wish that the world was a little more magical.

33:05
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, absolutely.

33:07
Sam Alicea
Thank you, Peter. How dare you?

33:09
Case Aiken
I think thesis is muddled at the end. And also on that note, the ending of the movie is different than the ending of the book. Like, in the book, George stays in this timeline and has more adventures and brings 20th century know how to this fantasy England setting? I think that the idea is that what the actual thesis of the book, the Flight of Dragons, is, which is like, we have these fantastical elements, but you could make it more interesting by way of introducing science. And you don't have to necessarily believe to still find fantasy in it all and to still appreciate it.

33:42
Sam Alicea
Right?

33:42
Case Aiken
He's going to write that book. He's still going to go on and do that. He makes this board game. I think the argument is that adults can appreciate fantasy too, even if they understand that it's not real. That doesn't make it not true. I think it's the idea that they're trying to get to. But I agree. It's muddled and it feels.

34:00
Sam Alicea
Yeah, it gets really muddled a minute. Super weird. Because he denounces magic, right? So he denounces magic. He's like, whatever. He leaves automatically because he can never come back to the world of magic. And right before he's joined by his lady love, who leaves behind her life of magic, he pulls out a giant shield.

34:23
Joseph Mastropiero
Right.

34:24
Sam Alicea
That clearly he got from the world of magic that he said wasn't real. Wait, what? Feels like you can't have both, movie. You cannot have both. Either magic is real and he left empty handed because he defeated magic, or he had a horde and he stole that from the dragon's horde. You know what? Now I'm even more like. That just occurred to me. That belongs to our beloved.

34:58
Case Aiken
Actually, it doesn't. That's the shield that was given to.

35:00
Joseph Mastropiero
Him belongs at a museum.

35:05
Case Aiken
Why is he just going to a pawn shop with that shit?

35:09
Sam Alicea
Because he wants the money. He's going to travel to all the different places and maybe even take some cruises.

35:17
Case Aiken
Well, and have a nice little. With his lady love. That shield, at least was the shield that he was given his quest so that at least he's not stealing from the dragon because that would be a bad choice. Like, why would you do that?

35:30
Sam Alicea
That's right. It was from the quest I enjoyed.

35:32
Joseph Mastropiero
There's like a couple throwaway lines like the enjoy some cruises in there that just really got a big laugh out of me. Another one was like, he talks about like, oh, man, this is a really good movie show. Or something along those lines. The writing could have been better.

35:52
Sam Alicea
There are these fun little throwaway lines from certain characters that are kind of like, I actually love that they sing, oh, matterland, would you craft from me when they get drunk? Because he's like, sing me a song of your people.

36:07
Joseph Mastropiero
Yes.

36:08
Sam Alicea
I think that it's so funny because I'm just like, this movie is ridiculous. It's great. But they couldn't figure out a song that was more from Boston, which I.

36:20
Joseph Mastropiero
Think, I guess not. That's a song about going from Alabama to Louisiana.

36:26
Case Aiken
Oh, God. You can make such a funny modern version of this with just like, going ham on the Boston stuff where it's like, you cut back to them in the basement. It's like, ship it off to Boston.

36:36
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, exactly.

36:40
Sam Alicea
Later on, just have them now because we're making it now. Have them sing sweet caroline.

36:46
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah.

36:47
Sam Alicea
This is what they do at the red stuff.

36:49
Joseph Mastropiero
That is a very bostonian song now.

36:52
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

36:52
Joseph Mastropiero
And that would fit both when they're drinking and when they're screaming and trying to deal with the psychic damage that they were being dealt with by singing the song.

37:03
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

37:04
Case Aiken
You could also tie in something where the easiest way for him to get the breath part is by singing songs. And so he starts doing just, like, drinking songs.

37:12
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah.

37:12
Case Aiken
No, there were other notes with, like, carolina has several points where he makes references to future technology or I forget the full thing. He says seersucker, whatever.

37:22
Sam Alicea
The outfit he's wearing covered with dragon smoke. And I was like, how do you know? Yeah, he's a Searsucker department store.

37:34
Case Aiken
Yes, that's it. The department store.

37:36
Sam Alicea
Department store covered in dragon smoke. That's not good.

37:40
Case Aiken
Right? Both parts of that. My wife and I were like, how does he know what Searsucker is? How does he know what a department store is?

37:46
Joseph Mastropiero
They're far more omnipotent and omniscient than they like to let off.

37:51
Case Aiken
Yeah. Which would make sense if it was like Merlin doing the life backwards kind of thing. We don't get any kind of vibe like that, so I don't know.

37:58
Joseph Mastropiero
No.

37:58
Sam Alicea
Right? It's kind of weird because he pulls him back with the acorn. He doesn't travel through time. So that threw me off, too. So much so that I remembered the exact line.

38:11
Case Aiken
Yeah. That said, I think, that the convention of having him, Peter, that is merge with a dragon, I think is one of the reasons why this was memorable, even though I actually forgot that part. But I fucking loved it as a kid because it's so cool to be like, oh, yeah, you could have your brain put inside of a dragon. That's awesome.

38:28
Joseph Mastropiero
Right? Because who doesn't want to be a dragon, right? So now you get that self insert where you're like, oh, we can be the dragon. How cool is this?

38:36
Case Aiken
Yeah, it's a self insert for all of us, because anyone who's into this kind of thing wants to be that kind of fairly academic. If you're into fantasy, you probably at least think you're smart and wanting to believe that you could be that kind of character in a fantasy world bringing 20th century knowledge to do that's the exact same fantasy that we all had as kids where it's like, oh, how cool would it be from this modern era to go to fucking Narnia and bring all the cool stuff that we know about and be even better at being a fantasy person than the fantasy people? And we got to be a dragon in this. How cool is that?

39:08
Joseph Mastropiero
Absolutely.

39:08
Sam Alicea
I think it also just gives you a chance if you ever imagined what it's like. He's explaining it to you, right? Even if you're not the kind of person that would have broken down the science to it. He's telling you what it's like to be a dragon. He's like, oh, my God, this is how I feel. He might as well be singing I'm pretty. He might as well be just, like, telling you how amazing it is watching him fly. I was like, oh, my God, he's doing it. I think that's the fun of this film.

39:37
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah. There's maximum whimsy. Yeah.

39:41
Case Aiken
And then this is sort of like, one of my actual concerns about this movie, which is that the tone all over the place in terms of, like, who is this actually for? And I get it. This is early 1980s animated fantasy stuff. Like, look, the fucking pilot from my little pony. Scariest shit. They have a demon Centaur man abducting unicorns and magically torturing them and turning them into dragon horses. And that's my little pony. Like, care bears had, like, literally Satan. There's weird shit in the fantasy that they were expecting the youngest of the young to watch, let alone the medium of the young or the slightly older. So I get not necessarily knowing what the tone is.

40:23
Sam Alicea
I think we run into this every time we watch something from the, even the early 90s, we run into this moment of, like, shit. This is kind of for kids, but this shit, this kind of shouldn't be for kids. And I think this is like, a running theme of that time. It's just like, there's just this expectation that I don't know if it's maybe because there's just, like, less media. I don't know if it's just that Sesame street has just kicked off and it's really the only thing really geared to kids, to educate kids. But at this point, people are still making media that's kind of like made by adults, not really thinking about what kids like. It's just like, well, it's colorful, so they'll get over it. Got to face your trauma sometime, kids.

41:10
Sam Alicea
I mean, technically, jungle gyms were made out of metal and they were in the sun.

41:18
Joseph Mastropiero
Absolutely.

41:18
Case Aiken
Yeah.

41:19
Joseph Mastropiero
These were all made by the people who kind of grew up with the birth of animated film. There really wasn't a whole lot. It was like what started like the. But really started to kick into gear around then. So they grew up and they're like, well, I want to do something more that I want to see. And then they're grown now, so they're going to make that. And just that time frame, there was just a lot of really weird quasipsychedelic stuff. They hadn't really merged the two well yet. Where children's animated and more adult animated stuff.

41:50
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

41:51
Case Aiken
The other argument is this for adults or is it or at least like older kids? And I think there are a few elements where it's like, well, it's hard to really say. It feels a little kiddie, but maybe the subtlety of combining adult humor with more youthful oriented stuff may just not have been refined enough at that point because you could look to a shrek or some more modern kind of examples where it's like, oh, they can really sneak that kind of humor in. But also, it's really there for kids. And there's certainly stuff like that again, like Oren and Danielle walk off holding hands because tomorrow they're going to die kind of moment. You know, what's going on there. Okay. Or the drinking stuff, all that. It's like, oh, this is mead versus wine.

42:26
Case Aiken
Having an actual debate about that is so great and kids aren't going to care. But there are spots where it's like, oh, well, this is very kitty, particularly the opening sequence, which I would like for us to talk about next.

42:36
Joseph Mastropiero
But, oh, definitely.

42:37
Case Aiken
Is this for older kids? Ultimately, yes, but I think that it undercuts it at a few points by being a little too whimsical.

42:46
Sam Alicea
I think in general, people are just going to always make, especially back then. Right. There's not that many. I feel like now we're so spoiled with having so many different options. You can go and seek out a channel that is going to have ten different programs that's just for your kid at their age level, and they can grow and that kind of thing, where during this time you have to make things that are kind of more like general all family. So if you've got a ten year old in the room and a four year old in the room, you got to make a movie that can kind of appeal to both. And so you're going to put some whimsy, you're going to put some fairies in it, you're going to have magic and have a duck kind of get hurt.

43:25
Sam Alicea
And then revived by friendly wizard and 80s, we really start talking about environmental stuff. So you're going to talk about the evil of machines and cleaning things up for the kids, but then for the ten year old, you're going to talk about the science, you're going to talk about helium and stuff like that. And then for the parents, you're going to have two people go off because it's last night on the earth. Does it feel like you're being mind fucked when you're watching it now? Yes. When I was watching this, I was like, okay, brain, try to pay attention. Wait, what? Why? Yes. Okay, fun part. Okay, now I'm bored again. It's just one of those things where the pacing feels really off.

44:11
Sam Alicea
But I think it's partially because making movies at that time, you're trying to put a little bit of everything for everyone in there, especially if you're doing animated film, because you're going to try to market it to as broad a field as you possibly can, because animation is expensive and because you got to, there's only so many channels, there's only so many avenues. You just got to try to get whoever you can. It's a great family movie for the whole family. Flight of the Dragons.

44:45
Case Aiken
Well, and it was a tv movie. That's the other part where there's certainly standards that they're trying to compete with and they may not have been sure what could fly and what wouldn't.

44:55
Sam Alicea
That's probably why they only had the second kiss. Probably couldn't have two kisses.

44:59
Joseph Mastropiero
No. Yeah, it was one tier below made for tv. It was straight to video movie.

45:04
Case Aiken
Well, but then it's commercial breaks.

45:06
Joseph Mastropiero
I know. It was weird. It was like the bottom rung of all of it. So it got the least amount of funding. And I know it was being made at the same time as the last unicorn. And I feel like a lot of Rankin Bass's resources went to that instead.

45:20
Case Aiken
Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. And that's annoying that it's got the commercial. I mean, I guess they made it direct to video, but also we're like, oh, it can also air in syndication, the breaks in there, but it might.

45:30
Joseph Mastropiero
Have been the other way around, where the medium tier was direct to video and this was only for tv. That would make more sense with it. But I know it was like the bottom of the bottom. So they had the smallest budget possible, and they didn't have a whole lot of resources to go to.

45:44
Case Aiken
I mean, that makes sense. And I think the limitations of animation at that time and the budget that they had are both big factors for why it kind of comes off a little bit more whimsical. There are certainly spots where the goofiest moments are plenty of times where it's just like, oh, they just didn't have the budget to have a third insert for that shot right there. Badass scene. But when Oren is talking up his sword before he dies, straight up, it's a static shot of his helmet.

46:10
Joseph Mastropiero
His eyes don't blink.

46:11
Case Aiken
It is just there. His helmet is covering his face so he can talk for, like, a solid 30 seconds. But there's literally no motion on screen.

46:19
Joseph Mastropiero
But it was a good speech, so it was okay.

46:20
Case Aiken
It's a great. Fucking hell. I'm stealing that speech the next time I'm playing a paladin. It's a great speech.

46:29
Sam Alicea
Oh, my gosh.

46:30
Case Aiken
Have a single frame of animation. I do think that contributes to some of the sort of whimsical elements of it all. And then I think, also the movie kind of stumbles to its fantasy setting in a way that isn't good. And this is a little bit of a spoiler for my pitch, but, like, the fact that we start in the fantasy world and then bring the viewpoint character in, I think is a little bit frustrating from the standpoint of actually getting this world set up because we open with some of the more ridiculous kind of things going on, namely the very heavy handed metaphor of logic versus magic. When the fairies land on the swan and it gets, like, sucked under the.

47:02
Joseph Mastropiero
Water wheel, I have so many thoughts about that water wheel part.

47:05
Case Aiken
I mean, the suit exists to be like, here's why the wizard wants to summon everyone and have this conversation. But it's so on the nose. It's on the very large nose of Carolinas. And we get the weird, like, they're not humans, but I think they're supposed to be kind of like semi fantasy humans.

47:22
Joseph Mastropiero
Like halflings or something. Yeah, they don't tell you what they are, but they're not dwarves because we do get to see dwarves, and they're just little round balls of fluff. So, yeah, there's some other fantasy being you don't really get to know what they are exactly. But they have very distinct accents.

47:38
Case Aiken
But, yeah, that whole sequence, it's so on the nose. It's such an abrupt start to this whole plot of it all that, honestly, if you cut that scene, I think the movie works.

47:47
Joseph Mastropiero
She gives spoilers away from my scene anyway.

47:50
Sam Alicea
But what are you going to do? How can you get rid of that middle guy that sounds like he's from South Jersey telling wizard to fuck off? That's gold. That's coming.

48:00
Joseph Mastropiero
Gold.

48:00
Case Aiken
Honestly, what we need to establish is that this entire time, the whole thing was fucking set in Boston. Ancient Boston versus modern Boston.

48:07
Joseph Mastropiero
It's just a fever dream.

48:08
Sam Alicea
Go socks.

48:10
Joseph Mastropiero
Go socks. Oh, man. There's one that this movie did, and this is probably more of a me thing, but when they're so on the nose at the beginning about how logic this. And I was like, all right, so they're going to have some science in this. They're going to be accurate, right? That's what I hope. And then they immediately show the water wheel somehow creating suction, pulling that duck or goose. And I was like, that's not how water wheels work. When I hear that sort of stuff, it turns that part of my brain on. So now I'm being severely, like, nitpicky. Another throwaway line later where they said, the way the dragon flies is just how a 747 works. And I'm just like, it's nothing. How 747 works.

48:51
Case Aiken
I understood what he was trying to say there, though. It's not that the 747 operates as a lighter than aircraft, but my understanding was that the specific wind flow component there with the way the wings were functioning. But that was just me trying to justify it, because I also thought, like, well, it's more of a derivable, but I'm guessing what they mean is by the way the Wings are working.

49:10
Joseph Mastropiero
I would have said this is how the goodyear blimp works, or something like that. Yeah, but that's a severe me thingy. And I was like, well, if you're trying to make a movie that's accurate with the science, you got to be accurate all the time, at least for.

49:24
Sam Alicea
Yeah, yeah. I think when they said that line, though, it was a callback to Carla saying, know, humans would have airplanes and things like that in the future. So I think it was like, one of those things where it's like, oh, it's a callback to him prophesizing. But you are correct, and that is annoying.

49:46
Joseph Mastropiero
I apologize if pointing that out made you notice it, and now you're noticing it and it's bothering you.

49:50
Sam Alicea
No, it's okay. I actually did what case did. And I was kind of like, oh, maybe he means how he's using his wings to steer, how he's using it against the wind currents. And I did exactly what case did was. I was like, okay.

50:09
Joseph Mastropiero
I have a very hard time sometimes suspending my disbelief. I was trying. I did. For the most part, it happens.

50:17
Case Aiken
Now I'm thinking, like, you know what? The other thing this movie could have really used, which is just like a pure Led Zeppelin soundtrack, because all the dragons are just zeppelins.

50:26
Sam Alicea
Listen, my least favorite thing about this movie is soundtrack. And that's only because fantasy movies, and I get it, there's not a lot of money here. This is, like made for tv. This is not even going to be part of my pitch. But I have to say that animated fantasy films from the late 70s, early 80s, including, and I'm going to include the Rudolph universe in this. Not just Rudolph, the red nose, but the whole universe with Heatmeister and all of that stuff, they all had this background music that, I don't know, it just always turns my brain off. Like, my add is just like, I can't focus on this. I don't know what this elevator esque music is to me. And so I don't know, it almost has, like, a particular smell, like an old fashioned old leather smell to me.

51:21
Sam Alicea
And I don't know if that's because I was watching these movies in a grandparent or grandparent friend's kind of house. But whenever I go to watch it, even now as an adult, several years later, and I turn them on, I automatically start getting sleepy and brain just starts going elsewhere. So, yeah, I'm sorry if anyone hears this. And you wrote the music for my brain?

51:48
Joseph Mastropiero
No, it's the classic Rankin bass style music. He made all those Rudolph films and all that stuff. That's why you're probably getting that from this.

51:59
Case Aiken
Yeah, well, and also Sam's apparent undiagnosed, right?

52:04
Sam Alicea
Yeah, maybe.

52:07
Joseph Mastropiero
Oh, God, Sam, it's awakened to 6th sense.

52:12
Case Aiken
Have you ever watched the Rankin bass return of the.

52:16
Sam Alicea
Yes, I have.

52:18
Case Aiken
I love the Hobbit and the thing that I disliked about that movie but could get over it because it's not that bad. In the Hobbit is the music. But then you get to the return of the king and that one where they're like, you know what people loved about the Hobit? The music. Let's double down on the music. Frodo of the Ninefingers. So I was thinking about that, where it's like, well, at least this isn't as bad as the return of the king.

52:42
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah. At the moment, I have the greatest adventure song from the hobit stuck in my head. So I'm just hearing that while we're doing this right now over and over again.

52:51
Sam Alicea
And listen, I said this before we started recording. I love theme song of this movie. The theme song was really good. It was a good theme song, and I felt like it made a promise of music and adventure to come and it did not deliver. They could have at least used theme song once again, it would have been nice. And this is actually part of my pitch. It would have been nice to use theme song at the very end when all of the dragons come out because it would have been like, kind of a cool tie in to the beginning, even without the words, just the instrumental. I think it would have been really nice.

53:31
Case Aiken
Maybe a minor key.

53:32
Sam Alicea
Really cool. Yeah. And it would have offered a little bit of difference to a score that is essentially fantasy. Bland.

53:41
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah.

53:42
Case Aiken
My wife kept on getting frustrated that it sounded very, like, mozart esque throughout. Like, there was, like, this baroque quality to the music, which wasn't like, it feels old timey to us now, but it doesn't actually feel fantasy, which was, like, on top of all of that. Yes. It's bland and old timey. Bland, but it's a little too harpsichordy. As opposed to.

54:03
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, yeah. More strings, less piano.

54:07
Case Aiken
Right.

54:08
Joseph Mastropiero
Some flutes, definitely.

54:10
Case Aiken
I agree that the soundtrack is not really a seller on this. Although again, all these Rankin bass movies have at least, like, one. Like, there's the opening know, like, look, Rudolph the Red nosed Reindeer. Every fucking song in that movie is terrible. Aside from Rudolph the Red nosed Reindeer.

54:24
Joseph Mastropiero
That's the call side. The opening song is usually really good and it lulls you into a false sense of security and he has to.

54:32
Sam Alicea
Deal with all the rest. That's great.

54:36
Joseph Mastropiero
That's song.

54:37
Case Aiken
Exactly. One bop per movie. And so we got that bop at the very beginning of this movie and it never comes back.

54:42
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, absolutely. They just reprise it. They should have just reprised it.

54:47
Case Aiken
Yeah. So, again, I think that I'm feeling pretty good about this movie, but I am super aware that I have hardcore nostalgia glasses going on when I'm looking at this movie. Every time we got to a new section, I was like, oh, fuck. Right. I remember that. And I got really excited. And so that's coming into it with a fairly warm. But it was like. And I knew that I was going to have warm about the actual flight of Dragons part and all that. I knew that was all going to be there for me. Sam, before we go to break, I am curious, what is your overall takeaway of this movie?

55:18
Sam Alicea
I feel like it's an okay. It's. It's not my favorite, and I think that there's some really lovely things in it. I think there's some good characters, but I do think that there's some characters I hate, and there's some weird stuff going on. And so if someone was just like, hey, do you recommend this movie? I'd be like, how much do you like the science of dragons? And if they were like, I'm really into it, I'd be like, yeah, fucking watch it. But if they were like, yeah, not really. I'd be like, nah, that's okay. There are other fantasy things to watch that have dragons in it. Go and watch those. Because this is a time capsule of an era of fantasy. And honestly, you've probably played better DND campaigns if you play dnd with better names, those gosh darn names.

56:09
Sam Alicea
So, yeah, that's kind of how I feel about it. I didn't hate the experience of watching it. There were moments where I was like, is this an assault on my brain? And then there are moments where, like, I really like this. So, yeah, I would be like, five out of ten. Watch if you love dragons.

56:25
Case Aiken
All right, Joe, before we go to break, I know that you were excited for this and then that you said it didn't hold up that well in the email. What's your general kind of sense of this movie before we start speculating on it?

56:37
Joseph Mastropiero
For me personally, I feel like there are the bones of a good movie here. It's just wrapped with a whole lot of other weird stuff on top that didn't really hit properly for me. The way the tone and the way the pacing kind of just goes from slow to super fast and throws you all over the place. It's very jarring, but there's a lot of really good stuff here that could really be made into something spectacular. It's just not there for me personally.

57:03
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

57:04
Case Aiken
Now, when you rewatched it, did you watch it with your son?

57:07
Joseph Mastropiero
I did not, because I couldn't get him to sit still long enough, really. But he has watched the old hobbit with me. We've watched the old Lord of the Rings, too. He isn't really super huge on fantasy, but he has watched every single Godzilla film about five times from 1955 up to the newest. That's really where he lies more in anime and Kaiju, big battle and Sci-Fi and things like that. So that's just not really his jam. He would have sat there for 5 seconds, be like the first scene, why did they hurt the duck? I'm out. And he would leave. Because one thing about my son is he is like lawful good. The alignment personified. If a main character does something in a movie that isn't good, he will stop watching the movie. That person wasn't nice. So I can't watch this now.

57:55
Joseph Mastropiero
Bye. And he'll walk off. He has like some real strong moral code in that for some reason.

57:59
Sam Alicea
Well, I respect, commendable.

58:00
Case Aiken
And I can relate, frankly.

58:02
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah. I was like, no, it's a redemption arc. Don't worry. He's like, no, I can't do it.

58:11
Case Aiken
Mentioning Kaiju movies. I do want to give a shout out real quickly to another podcast that we're friends with. Castle. Bravo. Derek and Charlote were recently ish on talking about the 1970s King Kong movie, but their entire show is talking about the history of Godzilla verse movies going in chronological order. And it's a really interesting breakdown. They just wrapped up season two, so shouting that one out because it's very cool to listen to all themes that go into it behind the scenes that the kids don't notice because it's like, ooh, that's a giant moth. And that's fun. But where it's also talking about japanese colonialism.

58:42
Joseph Mastropiero
Yes, there's so much more subtext than people realize. They're just like, oh, big monster in suit. But it's so much more than that. Just give it a shot.

58:50
Case Aiken
Yeah, that really highlights just how much you can put in there for people who want to explore the text and think about it and still have something that is just like, fun for kids, which I think this movie wanted to be and didn't get there. So why don't we take a break and we will give a shout out to a show that's actually on our network as opposed to just friends of.

59:09
Joseph Mastropiero
Ours who have a podcast.

59:11
Case Aiken
When we come back, we will discuss what we would have done differently in 1982 when creating the flight of the Dragons as animated movie, adapting a book that is of that name and also a different series of books that is a totally different thing. Let's see what we come up with.

59:26
Sam Alicea
Hey there, screen beans. Have you heard about screen snark, Rachel?

59:31
Case Aiken
This is an ad break. They aren't screen beans until they listen to the show.

59:34
Sam Alicea
Fine. Potential screen beans. You like movies and tv shows, right?

59:39
Case Aiken
I mean, who doesn't? Screen Snark is a casual conversation about the movies and television shows that are shaping us as we live our everyday lives.

59:46
Sam Alicea
That's right, Matt. We have a chat with at least one incredible guest every episode, hailing from all walks. We've interviewed chefs, writers, costumers, musicians, yoga teachers, comedians, burlesque dancers, folks in the.

59:59
Case Aiken
Film and tv industry, and more. We'd be delighted for you to join us every other Monday on the certain.

01:00:04
Sam Alicea
POV podcast network or wherever you get your podcasts, fresh and tasty off the presses.

01:00:10
Case Aiken
What? No, that's not.

01:00:12
Sam Alicea
Can I call them screen beans now? Fine, screen beans.

01:00:22
Case Aiken
So tune in, and we'll see you at the movies or on a couch.

01:00:25
Sam Alicea
Somewhere, because you're a whole screen being.

01:00:29
Joseph Mastropiero
She will be mine.

01:00:34
Case Aiken
And we're back. All right, so we have laid out some of the interesting elements of what this movie was. I will say full disclosure. In all of the research I tried to do on it, I could not find why the fuck they combined these two properties at all. So we could speculate on some of that. But I have no way of saying, like, oh, well, they did this for this reason or that. In terms of us trying to come up with what was realistic in terms of the adaptation at the time, no fucking clue whatsoever. We know what the two source materials were. We know the people who made it, and we know the time it came out.

01:01:06
Case Aiken
But zero idea why it was decided to do an adaptation of one book series but call it a different book and have elements, and then name the main character after the author of the other book for no fucking idea. That puts a wrinkle in our usual conversation of what could have realistically been done at the time of production to make it a better movie. But I do think that we can come up with some ideas. So, Joe, we have one standing rule in terms of the actual order of who goes, which is that I am not allowed to go before Sam as our guest. You may select to go first. You may select Sam to go first. And if Sam goes first, I can follow and you can back clean up, or you can go second. Whatever.

01:01:43
Joseph Mastropiero
I think I'm fine with Sam going first, if that's okay.

01:01:47
Sam Alicea
Yeah, I'm like, oh, no. Because I feel like my pitch for this is not great, but, oh, just you wait. My big thing was I wasn't going to change too much of the structure of this film. I think that the structure itself is okay. I don't think it's amazing. I also think it's a very short runtime, which I think is merciful. It's not super long. I think that's great for kids and also for tv. So I thought that was fine. I don't like specifically the water wheel in the first half, so I want that to be more mechanical, like whatever machine that has to be there, whether it's like a dyeing machine, when you're making clothing and cloth, sometimes some of those dyes can actually be really harmful to water or something.

01:02:35
Sam Alicea
Basically, I wanted our three possibly humanoid creatures that were disrespectful and messy to have a more industrial looking machine that was polluting the water. There are natural books where water wheels work, and they don't pollute the water. When I was watching it, I was like, where did the sledge come from all of a sudden? I don't understand. So I think that it would better to focus on fairies being sick by the water and him finding sick fairies and then following it to this more industrial thing that is leaking water into it and make it so that it's like a bigger factory kind of thing inside of the world of magic that is just making stuff. It could even be making magic things wastefully, like wands. All the other wood gets thrown.

01:03:31
Sam Alicea
But I just think that it needs to be more mechanical, more of an outside thing that should not be in a space that is a space of magic, more like a steampunk kind of feel to it, just because I wanted to feel more of the modern world. The industrial revolution.

01:03:49
Case Aiken
Yeah. Like, the pollution aspect isn't really there.

01:03:51
Sam Alicea
Right.

01:03:52
Case Aiken
Hydroelectric power is very good.

01:03:54
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

01:03:56
Case Aiken
It doesn't make sense there. And then the biggest environmental disaster that happens is actually that worm they encounter later with the toxic Sludge. So why does it happen the way it does?

01:04:06
Sam Alicea
Yeah. There's no reason why the water would be brown on the other end of that. Right. And also, that wheel was not the entire lake from the first point of animation, and the duck was just poor duck. So I just think that it would have been better to have almost, like, a factory setting making something. You can tie it to the dark wizard, too. Like, it can be something that he's pumping out to the main world. I don't know. Or it needs to be that. The veil between the land of magic and the land of people, and it has to be closer to the industrial revolution, so you'd have to change the dates. Is bleeding into the world of magic. And that's why we need to close it off.

01:04:49
Sam Alicea
We need to close off the world of magic because man's step forward is basically polluting our world, too. Like, they're polluting their own world. But that is coming into here, and it's killing our land and our fairies and things like that. And so it has to be like a decided factor that we are going to cut ourselves off from the realm of men to protect magic and to protect magical creatures. Then there's more of a reason for the council meeting to happen because it's like this real thing. And then, of course, our lovely, hard headed brother in red, he doesn't have to be fully evil yet. Can just be like, no, we do a lot of things for people. We do a lot of things. We inspire them. We shouldn't cut them off.

01:05:34
Sam Alicea
In fact, what we should just do is turn them around, destroy the machine, take it over, blah, blah. And so that kind of starts it. And we can still go the same route, but we just change it just slightly. And then I like all of the discovery stuff. I am going to nix any conversation about a woman when she is 3ft from someone about them, when it sounds like you are going to be like, oh, she is my dream. I created her. No, shut up. Just say she's really pretty. Okay, do not be creepy, all right? You did not dream her up. Do not be creepy. So all of that needs to go, including when Oren sees, I cannot remember her name, but our lovely ranger, when he sees her in the woods and is like, hobba. But that's basically his reaction.

01:06:29
Sam Alicea
Okay, that's definitely going to change.

01:06:31
Case Aiken
You definitely hear a little, like, ding sound inside of his armor.

01:06:34
Sam Alicea
He gets the big eyes, short of having his tongue roll out in front of his head. All of that's being cut from my version of this. They can still hold hands and go to bed. It's fine. Whatever. Definitely keeping the drinking scene for the dragon, all the sciency stuff. Although, yes, let's fix it. Let's talk about blimps and derigibles. Because why not? Let's just fix it. Let's make sure, if we're going to teach children about science in the movie and how science is magic, let's just make sure that we're giving them the right information because they're going to go around saying that shit later. So let's double check with a scientist. I'm sure it's like a quick email and just make sure that we have the right stone. Okay. And then I'm basically going to let this movie run.

01:07:26
Sam Alicea
But at the end, when all the dragons come back, because I am sure that I do not have the budget to change all the music. I am going to bring back theme song. It's already recorded. And if I can't make just a pure instrumental, I am playing it with the singing. But I am going to bring that back because that is the best song and it's the best scene while you're seeing all the flight of the dragons, which is in the fucking song, and I'm bringing them back. And then the only thing other that I am changing is the reunion. You know what? No, I hated it, but I'm going to let it fly.

01:08:03
Sam Alicea
I'm going to let Melisandre leave and join him because it's a classic fairy tale, even though I think it's kind of not cool for her to give up magic for him when she didn't really know him all that well. And she was like unconscious for most of the movie. But you know what? I'm going to let it ride because I'm going to let it be classic boy gets girl. Fine. I'm going to leave that alone. But I do it under duress and protest slightly, but I don't know how to end the movie else wise.

01:08:30
Case Aiken
I will say in terms of the trade off for her coming to the real world, 1982, Boston. There's a lot of stuff for her to appreciate that she was not getting there for one thing, showers for another, like movies. There's some good stuff.

01:08:44
Sam Alicea
Indoor plumbing is worth it. But we don't know that the land of magic did not have a way of taking care of that.

01:08:51
Case Aiken
That's true. All she needs is a prestigation cantrip, and she's.

01:08:54
Sam Alicea
Exactly. All I'm saying is she left the world of magic and then she went to. Wait, I've lived in Boston. It's also coming from a New Yorker. I'm sorry, Boston. Go on.

01:09:08
Case Aiken
I'm just saying she certainly is getting something in the trade. It's not like a straight downgrade. The magic world she's in is not. It's not like ever on where it's like, oh, yeah. Well, obviously I would take floating discs over elevators any day, but fair enough.

01:09:21
Sam Alicea
Yeah, you're right. They couldn't bring back a dragon and a Nogre. So I guess you're right. Bustin's fine.

01:09:28
Case Aiken
Again, it's. I'm not saying it's necessarily the right choice, but I'm saying that I could see being excited for her. It's like, oh, it's just her house dragon. So it is like some of this stuff is kind of mundane, and it's like fucking trains. Those are awesome. And I agree. Trains are awesome.

01:09:43
Sam Alicea
Okay, but I'm seeing this from a human aspect, right?

01:09:47
Joseph Mastropiero
Okay.

01:09:47
Sam Alicea
You're seeing it from advantages. But she's like, leaving behind her friends and her family, which she'll never be able to see again for someone that she barely knows at all.

01:09:59
Case Aiken
I am just playing Amadan's advocate right now.

01:10:02
Sam Alicea
I'm just saying from like, a logical. Because we love logic in this movie, a logical standpoint. This is not a decision that I would encourage a child of mine to make, although I do appreciate that it was her decision to make at the very least. So that's why I'm going to let it fly. Because they did make it a point to say that she had to choose. She chose unwisely, but she did make a choice.

01:10:32
Case Aiken
All right, so, Joe, who do you want to have go up next?

01:10:36
Joseph Mastropiero
I'll go next, mainly because I'm not going to be nearly as nice, probably.

01:10:42
Sam Alicea
I don't let case go first either, because he's so detailed. That's why I don't let him go before.

01:10:46
Joseph Mastropiero
Oh, no. I don't have a huge amount of detail, but there are some things that I definitely would do differently. I would completely obliterate that first scene with the water wheel. There's better ways.

01:10:56
Case Aiken
You would take a water wheel to the water wheel.

01:11:00
Joseph Mastropiero
I would start the film at the meeting personally, and I would also remove the blue and the golden wizard. It would just be Omadana. Would just be Carolinas. Because I have a really strong feeling that they added those two wizards for 80s inclusivity reasons. It just reeked of tokenism to me.

01:11:22
Case Aiken
Especially the yellow wizard, golden.

01:11:24
Joseph Mastropiero
They call him gold, but yeah, like.

01:11:27
Case Aiken
Very asian stereotype wizard there. But it's not that he's the only one because even Carolina's like, my wife is like, is he a stereotype?

01:11:36
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, I'm not sure he does give off that vibe.

01:11:40
Case Aiken
Also just, it's Rankin bass animation that all the characters. We never talked about Giles.

01:11:45
Joseph Mastropiero
No, we didn't talk about Giles elf.

01:11:47
Case Aiken
Who really is more of like a hobit halfling type character. But I kind of dig it when.

01:11:51
Joseph Mastropiero
Elves don't always look super pretty because there's lots of.

01:11:58
Case Aiken
In terms of what it looked. What he looked.

01:12:00
Joseph Mastropiero
Absolutely.

01:12:00
Case Aiken
And his role. But I don't know.

01:12:02
Joseph Mastropiero
Oh, for sure.

01:12:03
Case Aiken
Not the point. And there's a reason we didn't talk about him. There's nothing really to say.

01:12:05
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, and that's another issue that I'll go about. But yeah, I would start it with just Carolina's nomadon talking to each other. And they could be, say, scrying over their world, looking at how technology is infringing upon their world, how it's causing magic to die. We could see that scene of, say, if it's in their world, it's like a tanner and the chemicals that go into tanning, leaking into the water, killing off the ducks and the pixies that are hanging out with it. Or they could use that scrying bowl in front of them for that whole scene where they are showing how man's like starting to rip apart nature and how it's infringing upon their world. And they can kind of go back and forth about why we need magic to stay in the world and we need to protect it.

01:12:50
Joseph Mastropiero
Because if they don't have magic and if we don't keep it safe, then they won't be inspired and they won't further their own goals and become better as a species. And Omadana just say like, no, I'll do you one better. I'm just going to cause them great fear and greed and hate and they'll destroy themselves. And then we won't have to worry about our land disappearing because it'll be the only land left and you know that they can't fight each other. So he assembles the team, basically. So Caroline's will go and consult antiquity and he'll go into time. I would change Peter's character a bit. I would kind of go a little bit more Fern gully in this route. I would make him kind of like an environmental activist who just kind of plays d d in his off time.

01:13:34
Joseph Mastropiero
He's making his own little fantasy world because in his head he wants a world that is safe and more environmentally friendly. He's constantly at ods. He could be a geologist. There's no reason why.

01:13:47
Sam Alicea
Yeah, I love that. Fern Valley is amazing.

01:13:50
Joseph Mastropiero
Go on. Yeah, that would be kind of where he comes in. He understands he has a science background, but he's also just trying to make the world a better place. So he's trying to design maybe say some sort of filtration system or something to make irrigation better or something along those lines. And he gets his inspiration from fantasy like ideas. Not really sure how to pull him in other than how they do it, where they're just like, acorn, yoink, you're here. That's kind of how I would change his character. So just being like, kind of just down on his luck dude in a pawn shop or Carolinas could just talk to him when he meets him saying, listen, you're right.

01:14:23
Joseph Mastropiero
Fantasy is kind of real, and if it's not around for us to inspire you, it's going to be a downward spiral, and everything you're fighting for is going to be for naught. But you could help us if you come with us. And so then heads off with him. Obviously, I'd have to change where he gets the gifts from because he's no longer getting it from those two wizards. But that's as simple enough as know it can be a gift from Smurgle because he's not coming on the quest. So you can have these from my horde. Here's a magic shield that blocks magic attacks. And here's a magic flute that does flute things. You don't get to know. We don't tell you. Just use it when the time's right.

01:14:58
Case Aiken
Or just antiquity itself could give it.

01:15:01
Joseph Mastropiero
Absolutely.

01:15:02
Case Aiken
Yeah.

01:15:03
Joseph Mastropiero
I would get the quest going a little bit quicker. I would keep Melisan, but every single female character would get a bit more screen time. They would get more lines. They would be fleshed out a lot more because at the moment they're like one or two steps above property, and that wasn't cool.

01:15:22
Sam Alicea
Narrator.

01:15:23
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah. I was like, they need more.

01:15:26
Case Aiken
Let's give them Princess Melisson. Kind of feels like Princess Arlon from Dune to a certain point. Oh, yeah.

01:15:32
Joseph Mastropiero
Absolutely. As far as the quest goes, I like it. I don't have much complaints in that regard. It's just kind of how they get the ball rolling. I would be more careful with the throwaway science, not the stuff that they shine a light on, but the little bits here and there. But that's just because even five year old me watching this would have pointed those things out because I was a complete dweeb and it would bother me. So if I'm making this, I'm not going to let it bother me. I'll get a consultant. I would borrow more from the dragon and the George because in that there's at least a character like a love interest for Sir Oren that he has history with that's currently being held captive by another evil knight.

01:16:17
Joseph Mastropiero
Maybe before he can help them with that, he has to kind of know. He has to go save them. And he could still be this chivalrous person. He could still get that ideal across. But it doesn't have to be towards a five year old.

01:16:29
Case Aiken
Hell, I mean, even if he just knew Danielle beforehand.

01:16:32
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, absolutely. They could have had a history, too. Why not? And it would have been really nice if everybody was like, who, him? That man that did that. And he would have been like, that's no man. And then she comes.

01:16:44
Sam Alicea
Yeah, yeah. Even Daniel just being like, I've heard about you for centuries. It was like, oh, no, you sound like you're way too make them old friends. And that makes it a little bit.

01:16:56
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah.

01:16:57
Case Aiken
Yeah. Instead of my father knew you, it's like you could have sort of a game of them being like, who owes who at the. And, like, it's only when they're even that they're allowed to actually court.

01:17:07
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, absolutely.

01:17:08
Sam Alicea
Oh, you owe me again, Oren. After she saves him, I believe his.

01:17:14
Case Aiken
Chivalry won't allow him to make a move until he is no longer in her debt or something to that effect. And so he has to save her from something later on. But it has to be big enough that it's like, oh, well, that counts for two. Oh, it does it?

01:17:28
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, absolutely. You can make them in other altercations later on where they save each other's lives to kind of go back and forth, like, oh, now that one's for me. Now we're even. Now says you.

01:17:40
Sam Alicea
Yeah. And then you've got quality flirting.

01:17:42
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, yeah. Some good quality.

01:17:44
Case Aiken
I mean, seriously, it's like the gimli legolas level flirting, but without having to pretend that they're just friends.

01:17:50
Joseph Mastropiero
Oh, yeah, absolutely. The quest, for the most part, can stay the same. We can add a bit where they're going off to save his love interest or not. Or there's more that could have been done on the quest. I feel like I said, the bones of the movie are good, so I don't really have to alter too much. I would keep, obviously, the bar scene because drunk dragons are so much fun.

01:18:08
Sam Alicea
It's hilarious. It's the best.

01:18:11
Joseph Mastropiero
Would just. I would flesh out the characters more because a lot of them are very like, giles is there to play the flute. You think Danielle would be there to shoot some arrows, but apparently she's just there to die because that's all she really does after saving them. The one time she does shoot an.

01:18:25
Case Aiken
Arrow into the acidic muck, which the whole time I'm like, why are you shoot, like, when she's like, wasted arrow? I'm like, yeah, throw a rock.

01:18:32
Joseph Mastropiero
Throw a rock. Throw any other organic anything.

01:18:35
Case Aiken
Stick.

01:18:36
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, someone. Sure. They could find a stick.

01:18:38
Sam Alicea
I think the worst part is that she's like, throw an arrow. Why would we waste it? They're like, yeah, do it, woman. Pretty much. It's going to be like, why would I waste an arrow and then pick up a stick or anything else she had on her and throw it in.

01:18:53
Joseph Mastropiero
Absolutely. Absolutely.

01:18:54
Sam Alicea
Danielle, you have the power over her arrow.

01:18:58
Joseph Mastropiero
We promise. Another thing, maybe a third of the way through the film. Why do the gifts become greek all of a sudden?

01:19:04
Sam Alicea
Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. But that's really weird.

01:19:07
Joseph Mastropiero
The flute becomes the flute of Olympus. It had a different name prior to that, and the shield of Saturn was like a cosmic thing because that was supposed to be like the cosmic wizard. They could have just been fantasy stuff, like just make something up. I know they don't want to do that because the movie is so logical, but in this regard, they could have made something up, make it sound a little bit, didn't have to just pull from greek mythology badly. Yeah.

01:19:31
Case Aiken
There's two ways to look at that. One is that if you do see this as still the board game that he created, you could see this from the perspective of a DM, just forgetting what they had named it earlier and being like, oh, it's, my notes are fucked up. Or it's the world itself becoming more trapped into the modern world or as magic is kind of disrupting it. But this isn't a surreal enough kind of movie for that to be the reality.

01:19:53
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah.

01:19:53
Case Aiken
So clearly what we're just looking at is that the script had clearly a draft and then someone took another pass and then someone didn't note all the changes. Like, the control f didn't work.

01:20:06
Joseph Mastropiero
The ending I would alter a bit, like, the weird rap battle he has at the end was kind of weird where he's just saying the different ologies and it's murdering.

01:20:16
Sam Alicea
Yeah, that was weird.

01:20:17
Joseph Mastropiero
I feel like he could be trying to almost using a different version of his evil spell from before where he's just trying to put down how powerful he is and how there's no way he can defeat him because he's Almadon and he's this massive thing. And instead of just being like, I'm actuallying him, just talk to him about how the only reason why you're as powerful as you are is because we exist in order to take inspiration from you. Everything that he throws, that's negative. He'll be like, well, magic is hope and magic is inspiring kind of play off of that a little bit more. But I might just have to throw it all out and just have, like, maybe he just picks up that badass sword and monologues and chucks it at him like he saw Oren do.

01:20:59
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, the ending is just kind of a little messy for me personally.

01:21:04
Sam Alicea
He just throws, like, queen X at him and he just dissolves. No, you're clean.

01:21:11
Case Aiken
By the power of pedantry, I smite thee.

01:21:16
Joseph Mastropiero
Post epic battle, I would probably keep the story from the dragon and the George where he stays instead of leaves. Because if he stays there and helps cultivate this world with magic, he can then use that to inspire better thinking and better ecologically minded science in his other world. That's kind of how I would do. And then he could stay and actually get to know Melasson and foster a better relationship. I like that it's mainly the two ends. The middle was fine for me.

01:21:58
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

01:21:58
Case Aiken
I'm just wondering if he, like, then he can't be Peter Dickinson, which I'm not saying is necessarily a bad thing. But if the idea is that he wrote the book, he does have to go back. Or at least have the way to go back. But he also could just say that the door isn't permanently shut.

01:22:11
Sam Alicea
Yeah, he could have fixed things enough that doesn't have to be permanently shut. Yeah.

01:22:16
Case Aiken
You could introduce some kind of concept of like, here is like a doorknob.

01:22:19
Joseph Mastropiero
That if you put it on a.

01:22:20
Case Aiken
Door, it will let you walk back into the cabin or something like that.

01:22:23
Joseph Mastropiero
Or like, if he isn't specifically in my version, the one that writes the book, we can then see a young Peter getting inspired by dragons in a world that's a bit more environmentally friendly and just has that bit instead of it being bogged down. When we do see Peter earlier, our protagonist earlier makes sure everything looks gray and dirty, kind of smoggy, kind of like gnarly. As far as. Because 80s era metropolitan areas were pretty kind of grimy, they polluted. It's hard to tell. But we have come quite a bit of away from since then to have cleaner cities and whatnot. Just a long way to go.

01:23:07
Joseph Mastropiero
We have made some pretty big leaps going from seeing his Boston, where it was kind of mucky, and you could see why he's fighting to then at the end of the movie showing a young Peter an environment that's a little bit less so where he has more time to just daydream and be inspired and think about why would dragons be able to.

01:23:27
Sam Alicea
Yeah. Or to add on to you and double back a little bit. Or you do let Peter go back. Right. But when you go back to see him, he's not in any pawn shop, but he's like in a bookstore, signing things like signing his book, and someone walks through and goes to sign his book, and it's Melisandre. And she figured out how to open a door to the world. And when they're done, she says, come with me. And she places her hand, and with her magic, she opens the door, and he's allowed to go back, and the two of them can cross back and forth together.

01:24:04
Joseph Mastropiero
Thank you.

01:24:05
Sam Alicea
That way, you expand her role a little bit and you allow for him to still be the author of the book.

01:24:11
Case Aiken
Having him have access to come back, especially, like him having an environmental bent, I think that gives purpose on his side of things. Because the science versus magic component of this all is very muddled. The opening is like, oh, science is destroying all magic. But then magic is like the thing that's like the bad guy in this whole movie, but also is kind of the reason that we'll eventually have atom bombs. So it's not like magic is making humanity bad, and humanity is not corrupting magic. It's just like, well, Amadan is kind of just a douchebag. That's the plot of this movie. And the bigger theme of science versus Magic is almost kind of like the background tension that causes this one guy to be an asshole outside of it, but he himself is just a symptom and not the cause.

01:24:55
Case Aiken
And they don't address the cause in this all. It's just like, well, fuck this guy.

01:24:59
Joseph Mastropiero
That's all. Fuck him and his pointy hat.

01:25:02
Case Aiken
Yeah, let's go back to our war of magic and science and have two separate worlds, like a two state solution, and end up with just, like, fucking dealing with this one asshole. All right, fuck him. It's just not quite there.

01:25:16
Joseph Mastropiero
There was a line in it that I kind of get is where at one point, I think he says inevitability is the most powerful magic. And that, I guess what they're trying to do, at least from Carolinas'perspective, is inevitably there's going to come a point where magic is not really going to factor in too much, and we might lose it if we don't protect it, because we still need that little bit of magic to spark ideas and to spark the creative process and kind of like, the human world doesn't understand that because they have no connection to it. They don't realize that they're kind of aurovorising their own technology there by disallowing magic and kind of removing it completely. And he understands that inevitably that's going to happen if we don't do something about it. And Omadon just has the opposite idea.

01:26:03
Joseph Mastropiero
They both have two different root problems. For Caroline's, it's more we need to protect what we have. We need to conserve conservationally minded. The magic. Omadon kind of sees humanity as more of an invasive species and it needs to be scrubbed out. So he's going to use his dark magic to get them to destroy themselves. Different ways to look at that. The root problem is not so much what you have, but how you use it. It's wild.

01:26:30
Case Aiken
This movie came out the same year as the wall. And that would have been so wild if they could have just gone full adult trippy, have the realm of magic be very dreamy, ethereal and changing. And then you could have really kind of leaned into the sort of like, well, magic bleeds in from sort of the dreamtime kind of aspect of it all.

01:26:50
Joseph Mastropiero
For sure.

01:26:50
Case Aiken
It's only a few years before we would be getting things like the Sandman where we're really starting to lean into that kind of like, well, fantasy magic doesn't have to be just a different place. It could be a different perspective. And that would be a lot of fun.

01:27:04
Joseph Mastropiero
Oh, yeah, definitely.

01:27:05
Case Aiken
Yeah. I mean, I think I have very similar notes to both of you in that, like, well, for one thing, the opening scene doesn't need to happen.

01:27:14
Joseph Mastropiero
I'm glad were all in concert with that. We all agree now the way I.

01:27:18
Case Aiken
Would open it because I think you have a good thought in terms of opening with the council meeting. I was thinking, like, you could just open it with Peter and then have him get sucked in. And then you have a viewpoint character and you can do flashbacks to kind of show all the stuff. Like the movie's not averse to flashbacks. Fuck it. You could just do it that way and then that way you're with the viewpoint character the whole time and you can kind of set up some of those things. I think that the setting doesn't need to be the past the way it is. It is presented as a past, but it's a past that has yet to have magic stripped from it. So it's already kind of a different reality anyway.

01:27:51
Case Aiken
It could just be like a fantasy sidestep and humanity is bleeding into it. You could have sort of that element there and then that puts some of the stakes a little bit more because Peter's from a future. So Peter, we know Amadan loses in a certain sense. He can't help but lose because we know that the future is that way. So Peter doesn't really have stakes for it all in that it is presented as being literally a thing that is already preordained to not occur that way unless there was a back to the future style, like, well, Amadan's, like, succeeding. And so Peter is having trouble. Maybe that's why he's bonded to the dragon. If they set up something like, so I think if it's more of a separate space, that would be kind of an interesting element.

01:28:29
Case Aiken
And you could have it be where it's like a Flash of two worlds type scenario where the thoughts of it are bleeding in. And that's why he creates the game the way it.

01:28:37
Joseph Mastropiero
Absolutely.

01:28:38
Case Aiken
So that it's not literally he's trapped in a DND setting, but the game that he was building is him feeling the resonance of this magical world. And that can sort of be an explanation for the impact that magic has on our world that you could kind of explore. But aside from thinking that, oh, well, they're wasting the opportunity to have an audience insert character that we are introduced to a third of the way into the movie, wouldn't it better just to start there and then catch everyone up on this other magical world as opposed to starting at this other magical world and then spending a good amount of time there and then being like, well, what about the fucking guy from Boston? Well, get there faster. Definitely faster.

01:29:17
Case Aiken
Whether or not it starts immediately or because you could do a Luke Skywalker type scenario of, like, we've got a little bit of time with the weirdness, but we don't go too deep on it. It's just like, here's the shorthand for bad guys, good guys, et cetera. And then we get more of an explanation once we get to our protagonist also fine. So you could start with that council the same way. But either way, we need to get into it sooner because we spend so much time at the start of the movie in this weird setting and also the dumbest fucking stakes in the beginning, and then we get into the real. So cut out that whole front. Get to us having Peter as our character that we're with much faster.

01:29:53
Case Aiken
I prefer to have it not be specifically the past, and I would rather just start with him and he gets explained everything. And we can see in flashbacks, yada, yada. But then the actual plot I don't have a lot of notes about because I thought it was mostly fine. Once they're on the quest, that's mostly fine. We just need to get to that quest a little bit faster and have less child rape kind of vibes going on. That's not good. It's icky. Don't do it. But at that point then you can have. If the setting itself is very much like our world, but shifted over to the realm of dreams and thought, you can end with sort of the same kind of happy ending that they want to get to and have it not be necessarily quite so gross.

01:30:36
Case Aiken
Because it could be that Melissand has a representation in our world or that he sees her in his dreams and that's the relationship that they have at the end of it all. I think it supports the library of books that haven't been written yet. I think that's a cool scenario. Here's the section of all the books that haven't been written because it's more of a dreamtime kind of environment. I think those are all pretty cool. And that Peter's way of applying science and logic to it is why he's able to create the board game in the first place. I think could be kind of an element there. It would be really fun if this was made ten years later and DND or something like it could be actually kind of attached to it. But it's a little too early in the public.

01:31:12
Case Aiken
The public's aware that there are fantasy board games and tabletop rpgs, but the public isn't aware of the ubiquitous rules of it all.

01:31:20
Joseph Mastropiero
Early eighty s. I think it would still be kind of. They'll still have that satanic panic vibe.

01:31:25
Case Aiken
I think it's even before the satanic panic really revved up at that point. But either way, no one's going to recognize like a 20 sided die. That's not for the layperson. So kind of roll with it being like, okay, he is a person who is interpreting this magical realm that is just outside of ours. He wants to write a book about it. He's making board games about it. It's like he is already in touch with it all, but he's able to put structure in a way that people inside that realm don't because they are part of this chaotic flurry of right brained thoughts. And he is able to take fantasy and interpret it through a left brain kind of lens using that sort of like parlance. That is why he is able to still have fantasy in his life.

01:32:03
Case Aiken
Whereas a lot of adults lose fantasy as they grow up because they are actively suppressing it. You could kind of get this vibe of like, well, what is childish wonder as an adult? How do you keep it? And the way you keep it is that you embrace it, but you don't give into it. Like you're still able to be a functional adult who is able to look at the world through a lens of logic and reason but still appreciate the wonder of it all.

01:32:27
Joseph Mastropiero
Absolutely.

01:32:28
Case Aiken
And I think having an environmental bent to the character outside of that, I think you could still keep that in there. That could be an active consideration that he has. Certainly in terms of the type of entertainments would be something that's less environmentally wasteful than tv and movies and stuff like that.

01:32:43
Sam Alicea
But whatever.

01:32:44
Case Aiken
I think it's perfectly fine to have him be all excited about that. All I do actually really like the conversation of the end being like, all right, well, here's how your magic wouldn't work because of science. But I also agree that it's weird that he's just rattling off science concepts without it necessarily pretending. Right. Have them be like counterparts. If you're going to get into it like e equals Mc square. Have that be in response to a magic energy kind of thing. Have every part of it be juxtaposed on it. I will create a fire in space. It's like, well, but that's a vacuum. Have every part of it be a direct competition between each other?

01:33:21
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, definitely.

01:33:21
Case Aiken
So that's where he's kind of breaking down from the fantasy, and that's why he's ousted from it all. But then he is still, in the waking world, able to suspend disbelief when he chooses, and maybe that's even how he's able to return back to that realm at the end. So you could still have the happy ending with Melisa.

01:33:41
Joseph Mastropiero
Definitely.

01:33:42
Case Aiken
And maybe not have everyone come back from the dead, although they have established that they can do that. So it's not really that big of a macguffin when the wizards are already pretty capable of having everyone come back. So I don't know about that because it is pretty gnarly that everyone is.

01:33:57
Joseph Mastropiero
Dead by the end of the movie. Oh, crap.

01:34:01
Case Aiken
Even Peter, he manifests in kind of an astral form. You could have him be a little bit more ghostly. And when he sort of fades away.

01:34:09
Joseph Mastropiero
Too, I don't want to change it.

01:34:11
Case Aiken
Too much at the end because I do like the. Here's logic versus someone trying to explain, like, I'll pluck the sun out of the sky. I think that's fucking great.

01:34:18
Joseph Mastropiero
Oh, yeah, definitely. I get that.

01:34:20
Case Aiken
I think that's where it just needs a little bit more nuancing in terms of all the different specific things they say. So that there is this sort of counterbalance to it. So here is magic fantasy concept. Here is response being shut down by logic and piece by piece. He's like breaking the magic that Omadon has.

01:34:39
Joseph Mastropiero
Exactly. That would have definitely been a better end situation for sure.

01:34:44
Case Aiken
Greed and then. Yeah, like, I mean, obviously better soundtrack would be cool. Having it be like, just like super fucking Bostonian would be great. I didn't think about this until we started this call, but I really want to do the flight of dragons abridged and really lean into it. Like, you could even have the two dragons drunk in the basement tell the story for sure. Like, hardcore bostonian accent.

01:35:08
Joseph Mastropiero
That sounds like fun.

01:35:10
Sam Alicea
Sounds like wicked fun.

01:35:11
Case Aiken
It'd be so wicked fun. Go pats.

01:35:15
Sam Alicea
You know who's a traitor? Brady. Go on.

01:35:18
Joseph Mastropiero
I'm sorry.

01:35:20
Case Aiken
Like, there's a ton of space for that in this movie. I think the animation, while it's definitely cheap or, like, they're definitely cutting corners, I should say it's beautiful at spots and a lot of the character design is great. I love a lot of the line work on the characters. Like, Danielle's hair looks so good every time she's on screen and she doesn't have thick black lines for it. It has this ethereal quality to it all. Those are all great. But like, man, fuck Giles because he's even introduced in the same scene with Danielle and doesn't really do anything with it all, so why even fucking bad there? But he's there because he's in the books.

01:35:55
Joseph Mastropiero
He's got to play the flute.

01:35:56
Sam Alicea
I also find her kiss to him condescending. Just want to say, like, as a person who has a lot of short friends, they don't really like being pat on the head or treated like a child.

01:36:05
Joseph Mastropiero
That's true.

01:36:07
Case Aiken
I think that the opening is weak and I think that the ending could have been made a little bit more cogent but not necessarily a different structure for it. And I think that the overall movie wants trim a bunch of the scenes, but overall flows pretty well because it's just a DND quest, pretty straightforward. So I'm not really that annoyed by it. So I really like this movie still. I came away from it very happy. But again, this is exactly the kind of movie that I'm like, oh, yeah, well, yeah, totally. I would be that annoying person in the fantasy setting being like, well, how does this part work with the science? Because I am me and I know who I am.

01:36:43
Sam Alicea
Yeah, I'm glad you embrace it. I'm proud to know you despite it. No, because of it.

01:36:51
Case Aiken
I try to use it for good you do. That's what this show is.

01:36:57
Sam Alicea
But, yeah.

01:36:57
Case Aiken
So I feel like we're all kind of on the same page, which is the movie just needs to start sooner and trim out some of the dead weight scenes. And it could have used another scripting pass. But I think that some of the concerns about the tone weren't going to really be fixed at this time when it came out. That's just where it is. And the cast itself is solid.

01:37:15
Sam Alicea
Just be more accurate.

01:37:16
Case Aiken
Yeah.

01:37:17
Sam Alicea
With the facts that you're putting out there saying stuff. Water wheels do not cause pollution. Thanks.

01:37:23
Joseph Mastropiero
Right. They also don't cause suction. It wouldn't pull the damn duck in. The duck could just swim away.

01:37:28
Case Aiken
Like, I could understand getting stuck under the paddle of the water wheel once, but it's not the wheel, it's the river. Yeah.

01:37:33
Joseph Mastropiero
The river is pushing.

01:37:35
Case Aiken
It's like, oh, the nature of the river. Because it's effectively the same shit as just, like, hitting a rock when you're just, like, floating.

01:37:43
Joseph Mastropiero
Doesn't make sense. Yeah, I'm too much of a nerd. I was like that now. It's jarring now, because when I was.

01:37:53
Case Aiken
Watching it's the same thing as the 747 bit where I'm like, okay, well, I guess they got stuck under it. But the problem isn't the water wheel. The problem was that the swan wasn't paying attention and the current was too fast.

01:38:04
Sam Alicea
Yeah. It says, gosh darn fairies. They were probably drunk driving that swan around.

01:38:08
Joseph Mastropiero
Right.

01:38:09
Sam Alicea
That's what they always do. Get high on some nectar, get on animal right into the wrong place.

01:38:16
Joseph Mastropiero
Wouldn't it be back in fantasy? Yeah. Wouldn't it be wicked sweet if we just made this goose go in this fucking water wheel?

01:38:25
Case Aiken
Yeah. So I think we're all kind of on similar pages and really just sort of the takeaway is like, well, where does it fall as is for us in terms of how strong? Like, Sam's a hard five. I'm probably like an eight. Frankly, Joe, I'm kind of hearing a six for you. Is that about right?

01:38:41
Joseph Mastropiero
Yeah, I'd say six is pretty. I would still put it on and just kind of just look away when the stuff that bothers me comes.

01:38:51
Sam Alicea
Yeah, if it was on, let's say it came on cable. Like, I had the tv on and it came on and I was, like, doing laundry or something. Leave it on.

01:39:02
Joseph Mastropiero
It's got those one liners that when you hear it, you're like, yeah, try.

01:39:05
Sam Alicea
To get to a couple of key points. Try to get to a couple of amazing characters and then turn it off right before the end decision.

01:39:16
Joseph Mastropiero
Once they're all dead, they're turned off. Like, that's how it ends.

01:39:18
Case Aiken
Yeah, the world is saved. Everyone's dead, but the world is like.

01:39:23
Joseph Mastropiero
I just told my son, that's why we have all this pollution and we have global warming because we lost Elmadon one. I hope you're happy.

01:39:32
Case Aiken
Yeah. When Gorbash goes down because of the dragon spell thing, but before Peter comes up, that's when it's just like, just cut, hardcut.

01:39:41
Sam Alicea
And now all the dragons are sleeping. And that's why we have no magic. And that's why you have to do homework. So go do your homework.

01:39:50
Case Aiken
So I'm really glad to rewatch this. There are certainly a bunch of flaws in this movie and some of those are kind of unavoidable. And again, we don't have any information for why they decided to combine two completely separate properties by two authors that have similar fucking names.

01:40:06
Joseph Mastropiero
Right. Maybe it was an accident where they wrote a name down and then they're like, oh, you got the wrong book. Oh shit. Got to get the other book now. We got to use both books now. We already sent Gordon.

01:40:18
Case Aiken
The license was Peter Dickinson's. You've read the book by Gordon Dixon? Jesus Christ. Well, I guess we have to. What did the lawyers say? Well, we've changed all the names. Okay, cool.

01:40:27
Joseph Mastropiero
We're good.

01:40:30
Case Aiken
God, maybe that was the.

01:40:31
Joseph Mastropiero
Oh, it could be.

01:40:32
Sam Alicea
Who knows? We'll never know. It's locked in the world of magic. We'll never know.

01:40:37
Case Aiken
You know who actually probably could find out though? Sam Wilson. She has animator friends and probably could. She could probably find an oral history by doing some digging. It's obviously well before her time, but she might know a person who might know a person. So Sam Wilson, out there in space, I know you don't listen to this actively. So when Pat Edwards listens to this episode and talks to Sam Wilson, he should then twist her arm and force her to find this stuff out. Because I also know that Bret's probably not listening to this actively either, unless he happened to have seen this movie, in which case he would because he listens to the episodes that he cares about.

01:41:14
Sam Alicea
The asking a person who knows a person, even though we technically know these people, to ask a person who they may know who might be able to give us an oral history. It's wonderful. It's beautiful. I love it.

01:41:30
Case Aiken
But either way, I'm really glad to look at this again. I'm really glad just to talk about another straightforward, very goofy fantasy kind of thing. It's at worst, inoffensive. Aside from the child grooming stuff, even the music's not great, but it's like, whatever. It's not return to the king.

01:41:50
Sam Alicea
No, it's cringy at best. At the worst, rather. It's like that doesn't sit quite well. It's not the worst we've been through, but there's cringe there. Yeah.

01:42:04
Case Aiken
But overall, I really enjoyed looking at it again and again. It's mercifully short and the designs are good and I think if you want to watch a fantasy thing with a child who is like me, I think you're in great shape. I think you should go do definitely. Joe, thank you for bringing this. Where can people find you online? Like, what have you got going on?

01:42:24
Joseph Mastropiero
If you want to look for me online, I'm on Twitter at aren't the droids for you? I don't really have a whole lot to put out at the moment, but in hopefully the short future, me and a couple friends of ours are putting together a Pathfinder second edition actual play. It's going to be called the Dice Training podcast and it's going to be a lot of wonderful.

01:42:44
Case Aiken
Nice, nice. Well, as soon as that goes live, we'll be sure to update the links on the episode descriptions when it does. But it's been a pleasure and it's always fun to chat with you on Twitter, but also on our discord, where you can interact with all of us at certain pov, including Sam. So, Sam, I just said they can find you on the discord sometimes, but where else can they find you?

01:43:05
Sam Alicea
Yeah, sometimes. I remember the discord exists and they can definitely find me here at another past. But other than that, I am busy trying to take over a dragon's body, especially after saw this movie. So you will not be able to reach me because I am actively attempting to live out my life's dream of becoming a dragon. And so if you have any complaints about anything I said today or in previous episodes, I mean, it's fine. You can find case to complain to him at.

01:43:34
Case Aiken
Well, you can find me on Twitter at case Aiken or at our Discord server. You can find me on Instagram at Ketzle collateral five, because I'm holding on to that damn aim screen name from high school for dear life. If you really are mad about the full cow that Sam ate of yours, please, by all means, come find me at any of these places. But especially the discord server, because it's.

01:43:54
Sam Alicea
Become a very sorry about the cow.

01:43:56
Case Aiken
Yeah, I know.

01:43:58
Sam Alicea
It was delicious.

01:43:59
Case Aiken
I'm sure it was.

01:44:00
Sam Alicea
I'm coming for your sheep next.

01:44:03
Case Aiken
Yeah, come to the discord server. We're having a great amount of conversations. We have modified the old scruffy Nerf herders channel, actually, Joe's suggestion, we kind of came to it together while were chatting into just a broader TTRPG conversation. And that's become really rich, especially with things like the DND movie, with things like one DND that's like what's going on? Or if it's now going to be 5.5, or if it's just going to be called fifth edition because Wizards of the Ghost is backpedaling like crazy at the moment for stuff. If you want to talk about Pathfinder stuff, that's great stuff there, or if you want to talk about other nerdy things, we have a vibrant video game conversation going on. We've got tons of music conversations. We've got so many cool things happening at the discord server without it being crazy overwhelming.

01:44:45
Case Aiken
Like, there are plenty of discord servers I have been to that I cannot follow what's happening because I will have said something. I will go to the bathroom, and when I come back, I will have to scroll for ten minutes to find the things that I had said. So that is not the pace that we have. We have a pace that is much more manageable hole with a lot of really friendly people like the three of us on this call. And also our editor, Jeff, who I love more than.

01:45:08
Sam Alicea
I love Jeff way more than case. Jeff is aware of it. Matt's aware of it. The entire world is aware of it. How dare you, case, I'm going to eat your cow.

01:45:19
Joseph Mastropiero
What's not to love about Jeff?

01:45:23
Case Aiken
You can find us at the Discord server. You can find a link to that discord server@certainpov.com, where you can find full episodes of this show and tons of other great shows, such as our bonus episodes that we're doing, where we're looking back at our old episodes. But when you want to check out new content and find out what is up next. Sam, what have we got coming up on the next episode?

01:45:42
Sam Alicea
Next time on another pass, we'll be talking about Highlander two quickening. But until then, if you enjoyed this, pass it on.

01:45:51
Joseph Mastropiero
Thanks for listening to certain point of views. Another pass podcast.

01:45:56
Case Aiken
Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com another pass is.

01:46:05
Sam Alicea
A certain pov production. Our hosts are Sam Alicea and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Jeff Moonin. Our logo and episode art is by case Aiken, our intro theme is by Vin Macriey and our outro theme is by Matt Brogan. And I had a very similar I'm.

01:46:24
Case Aiken
Going to let that love just trail because I felt the fear that just hit you when I said that word.

01:46:30
Sam Alicea
No, it's fine.

01:46:32
Case Aiken
Cpov certainpov.com.