Case and Sam are looking back at the earliest episodes of the show! Check out their thoughts on the thirteenth episode when Case sat down with Ben Milton & Addy Thomas and chatted about Zoolander 2!

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Meeting summary:

●      In the latest episode of the podcast, the hosts dive into a detailed discussion of "Zoolander 2," a film that many have overlooked since its release. The conversation kicks off with an overview of the movie, noting its decent sound quality from a studio recording and a concise runtime of 39 minutes. Despite the charm of the first "Zoolander," the sequel is critiqued for its lack of depth and character development, particularly regarding Kristen Wiig's role. The hosts propose various improvements, suggesting that the film could benefit from focusing on themes of aging and how Derek and Hansel are out of touch with modern fashion. They also compare "Zoolander 2" unfavorably to other comedy sequels, like "Anchorman 2," discussing the challenges of creating successful follow-ups in the genre. The episode wraps up with reflections on podcast structure and rapport, previews of upcoming episodes featuring films like "Thor 2" and "Transformers," and ways to connect with the hosts, emphasizing their long-standing presence in the podcasting community.

Notes:

●      🎬 Zoolander 2 Overview (00:00 - 09:00)

●      Episode is about Zoolander 2, a movie many forgot existed

●      Sound quality is good, recorded in Ben and Addie's studio

●      Episode is quick, 39 minutes long

●      Zoolander 1 was quotable and had good performances

●      🎭 Analyzing Zoolander 2 (09:00 - 17:34)

●      Movie came out same weekend as Deadpool

●      Zoolander 2 lacks depth and commentary of the first movie

●      Movie feels lazy and disappointing

●      Lack of Kristen Wiig's character development

●      🔍 Critiques and Suggestions (17:34 - 24:12)

●      Suggestion to keep Matilda (Christine Taylor) in the movie

●      Proposal to expand on Mugatu's character

●      Idea to focus on Derek and Hansel being out of touch with modern fashion

●      🧠 Deeper Analysis (24:12 - 33:20)

●      Discussion on the movie's lack of commentary on modern celebrity culture

●      Criticism of the Benedict Cumberbatch cameo scene

●      Suggestion to make the movie more reflective rather than nostalgic

●      🎭 Comedy Sequels and Comparisons (33:20 - 40:54)

●      Discussion on successful comedy sequels

●      Comparison to Anchorman 2, which had more to say than Zoolander 2

●      Reflection on the difficulty of making good comedy sequels

●      📝 Improving Zoolander 2 (40:54 - 51:45)

●      Suggestion to focus on being out of touch and accepting aging

●      Idea to make the movie meta, reflecting on Stiller's career

●      Proposal to address changes in fashion and celebrity culture since the first movie

●      🎥 Reflections on the Episode (51:45 - 01:03:59)

●      Discussion on the episode's structure and rapport between hosts

●      Acknowledgment that the episode is fitting for the quality of the movie

●      Reflection on the podcast's longevity (about 8 years)

●      🔮 Future Episodes and Contact Information (01:04:03 - 01:15:28)

●      Preview of upcoming episodes including Thor 2 and Transformers

●      Information on how to contact the hosts and find their other work

●      Mention of the host's success on the Reels of Justice podcast

Transcription

00:00
Case
Yeah.

00:00
Case
Why don't we just get into the episode? Because. Why not? Why not?

00:03
Sam
Yeah, yeah. Because, honestly, why not?

00:07
Case
I've got Bravo to watch with my wife. We should get into this. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another pass. At another pass, I'm case aiken, and as always, I am joined by my co host, Sam Alisea.

00:26
Sam
Hi.

00:28
Case
And Sam, I'm gonna be honest. I forgot that this episode existed because I kind of forgot this movie existed again.

00:37
Sam
Listen, I knew when you brought it up that it existed, but I don't know if I actually saw it. I think maybe I did, but I don't know. And I did watch it for today because I was not sure if I had ever seen it, so I decided to watch it. And I guarantee you that five years from now, I will not remember if I watch this movie, even though we have it on tape. That I have.

01:05
Case
Yeah.

01:06
Case
No, totally. Because who can really say that Zoolander two is a real movie?

01:11
Sam
No, it is a fever dream set to cash in on nostalgia.

01:19
Case
Right. And it's wild.

01:21
Case
I was thinking about this on my way home when I was, like, re listening to the episode. There's a point where I say, and this is not a big spoiler, but I make a comparison between Zoolander two and the Phantom menace in terms of, like, oh, well, it's a creative who has absolute power, you know, having that nostalgic itch, like, 15 years later and.

01:40
Case
Not having any sort of, like, restrictions.

01:42
Case
On what he can do. And then I did the math, and I'm like, actually, it's pretty close to 15 years later, the Phantom menace with return of the Jedi. And so. That's crazy, right?

01:55
Sam
Yeah, that's a good comparison. Even better than you knew it was.

01:58
Case
Yeah. So suffice it to say, we're coming in a little hot about this movie, and we sound great before the episode gets into it. Like, we sound great. We are in Ben and Addie's studio, and I sound particularly good. Like, I, like, notably. So, like, remember how with the Turtles episode, it was like, oh, it's weird. We're in the same room, and I don't sound as good as Addie. Like, the three of us all sound fantastic.

02:26
Sam
Yeah, the sound quality is really good.

02:28
Case
We've gotten to the point where I know what I'm kind of doing when it comes to editing. So, like, things like ums and likes and all that are being taken out a bit more. Not perfectly, but, like, I'm doing something as far as an editing process goes. And, yeah, I think it overall sounds pretty good. Now, it's a quick episode, listeners. You are in for a 39 minutes blitz talking about this movie. So that's.

02:56
Sam
Yeah, I'm not even sure if there is a very clear proposal in this one on how to fix the movie. There are so many. It is a blitz. It is 100%. There are so many ideas being thrown at the wall, and really, if any of them stuck, it possibly would have been a better movie. And that's basically how you guys go at it.

03:20
Case
Yeah, but that said, it is a Ben and Addie episode, and the three of us have great chemistry. Like, I really miss recording with them on the regular. Like, just for the record, we're all on great terms. Like, we just, you know, they stopped certain point of view, and at the same time, we had a pandemic, and then I had a baby. And so this made it hard for us to meet up in a lot of context, but we still interact with each other. We're still friends. For the record, if anyone's wondering why we have so many Ben and Addie episodes at the beginning, because this was a spin off show.

03:57
Sam
Yeah.

03:59
Case
But, yeah, it's a Ben and Addy episode. And we joke about how at this point, it's like 50 Jeff and versus Ben Addy and are really, like, 40, and then, like, a little 20% sliver of, like, other people's episodes. So, like, they're. They're keeping neck and neck, those pairings right there. But, yeah, it's. It's a. It's a good sounding episode, and I think format wise, it's, you know, we talk about the movie for a bit. We talk about Zoolander one for a bit, and then. And then we get into it. But we propose things that could be changed rather than, like, a full pitch.

04:39
Sam
Right.

04:41
Case
But, yeah, I think people will enjoy because, like I said, it's quick and we have, like, a good rapport, and I think everyone here will have a good old time.

04:50
Sam
Yeah. And honestly, it is the. This is the episode Zoolander two deserves.

04:59
Case
Yeah. So we'll be back in a minute and see you on the other side.

05:06
Case
Welcome to certain point of views, another pass podcast. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com dot. Thank you for tuning in to another pass podcast. I'm case Aiken, and shockingly, I'm joined yet again by Ben Patty.

05:25
Addy
Hey.

05:26
Case
And today we're talking about Zoolander two. Who? So this is a fun one, Ben, this was your suggestion. Yeah, I actually hadn't seen the movie before. We were like, brainstorming episode ideas. That's okay.

05:39
Ben
Addy didn't think he saw the movie.

05:41
Case
I seen it, and I forgot when you mentioned it, I totally had forgotten that the movie came out, period. Like completely forgot.

05:49
Addy
Everybody did. It came out at the same weekend as Deadpool, didn't it?

05:52
Case
Really?

05:53
Addy
Yes, I think so.

05:54
Ben
Yes, it did.

05:54
Addy
Yeah, Deadpool just wiped the floor with it.

05:56
Ben
And rightfully so, because this movie sucks eggs. It is just awful.

06:01
Addy
At least it was around the same time.

06:03
Case
Yeah.

06:03
Case
Wow.

06:05
Case
Yeah. I mean, I remember seeing the ads for it mostly because Justin Bieber dies in one of the ads, right? And I was like, okay, cool. You know, I really like Zoolander one.

06:15
Ben
And I like the idea of Bieber dying.

06:17
Case
So that's how these are all good ideas. And then it just came and went and I just completely forgot that they tried at all. So this was an interesting prospect because it's not one that I had really strong opinions about before I saw the movie today. But I know you have really strong opinions about it.

06:34
Ben
I do.

06:34
Case
So I guess let's, maybe we should rewind a little bit, talk about Zoolander one for a second, because I think a lot of people have good nostalgia for it.

06:45
Addy
It's a very quotable movie.

06:47
Case
It's super quotable. A weird one I was thinking about was that it's one of like the best performances of Will Ferrell's career. And it was like right before he got big. It's like the movie he did right before old school, which is like that track of, like, old school to Anchorman is like where his presence in movies, because he was getting a lot of good buzz for SNL before that, but that's where he became huge. And it was a really good Ben Stiller comedy. And I feel like everyone kind of went into it thinking, oh, this is going to be dumb. And everyone still talked about it as being a dumb movie, but it was so quotable that you couldn't just help but, like, laugh and chuckle and think about it and, like, bring it up a lot.

07:28
Ben
Right?

07:29
Case
It became super, like one of those, like, movies in college where you're like, hungover day, I'm gonna just, like, leave a dvd in the dvd player the whole damn day, and I'm not gonna have enough energy to get up and change the disc. And that was a good movie for that. Like that super troopers. Like, there's, you know, a bunch of those, like, I could watch this movie a bunch of times. It's fine.

07:48
Ben
Yeah, it's one of my all time favorite comedies. Like, and that's a, I mean, I love, I'm a comedy guy. I love comedy. So Zoolander one was a big, like, a great movie for me. Like, I loved it more than I loved anchorman more than I love super troopers more than I love, like, a lot of the other, like, really highly quotable movies. Like, this was my number one film in that genre. So when you get to Zoolander two, my personal expectations were pretty high, especially since they took 15 years to make it. Like, I would have thought they would have put a little more effort into it, to be honest.

08:24
Case
Yeah, I guess I'm curious why your expectations were high and you weren't full of nerves.

08:29
Addy
Yeah, I was a little surprised about that too. Cause you were actually pretty hype about it up until the two weeks before the movie came out. And then all of a sudden all your, it just disappeared.

08:41
Case
Because I will say, once I remembered that the movie existed, I will say I remember the advertising campaign making me a little worried because I saw that Christy Taylor was not in it, or at least not a major part. And I was like, that's weird. She was a big part of the first movie. Like, she's actually married to Ben Stiller still in real life. Like, that's like, it's weird that they couldn't choice, right? Like, huh. I wonder what's going on there. I hope they didn't write her out just so they could have another romantic, like, love story bit, apparently. So I was, like, worried about that before I even saw the movie. Right.

09:16
Case
So I wasn't going in thinking that this was going to be great, especially because you wanted to review this as a movie that is not good and how we could make it better. So it's not good.

09:26
Ben
It's not good.

09:27
Addy
There are large swaths of it I would just cut out.

09:30
Case
Yeah. Yeah. Like, so, like I said, I saw it today. I didn't hate it. I thought there were some funny bits in there. Will Ferrell, I think, is still fun. It is lazy. Is, I think, my big takeaway, there's a lot of callbacks to the first one, which is kind of fine. I mean, they made it 15 years later out of nostalgia for the most part. The fact that it has pop culture cache made it a viable sequel still. Yeah, they were not trying very hard.

10:03
Ben
No. And that's my biggest complaint about the movie, is when you look at Zoolander one and, yeah, it's a stupid movie, but it's pretty smart. And it's biting commentary about the whole, like, model industry and how, like, obsessed we are with, like, this really pretty vapid industry and just kind of, like, you know, really taking shots at that and doing it very well and everybody can. Like, the casting in that movie, to me, is almost perfect. Like, I mean, it's so good. Like, Billy Zane and David Duchovny as the hand model genius. Like, I mean, there's.

10:40
Case
Why male models. No, and it's true. Like, so genius. And it's so well written. And that I use that quote all the time when I'm trying to, like, point out that someone is clearly not paying attention to stuff. Oh, my God, it is such a good.

10:56
Ben
Files are in the computer. Yeah, I use that all the time, too.

10:59
Case
So I will say this. You said that it's taking cracks at fashion and modeling, and I actually think it goes a little bit further. And that's one of the things that I like about the first Zoolander movie that this movie doesn't do right. Which is that I feel that they used models as a method of criticizing modernity in general. I feel like it's a lot about how image conscious pop culture had become, and they were really addressing all of their concerns about how really the media in general has worked through the lens of this really hyper specific, but very, like, exaggerated example of male models in this world. Because really, who thinks about male models, period? If you're trying to talk about models, usually we're talking about female models. There's a lot of sexism in the industries.

11:47
Case
There's all kinds of weird things going on.

11:49
Ben
It's like male porn stars. Nobody talks about that.

11:51
Case
Yeah. So it was a weird choice where it's like, oh, yeah, like, male models.

11:55
Case
Sure.

11:55
Case
Like, we all know, you know, I think there isn't a whole lot of thought about it, but it's like, so you can make that parody, and it worked really well. Right. I think this movie didn't go as far out into the world, and it was much more focused on actual fashion, which was a weakness, actually. Right. Yeah.

12:13
Addy
Like, well, adding the whole spy element to it and, like, that just seems, that seems like that lazy application of, like, well, we don't really have anything to say here. So this is a great way to generate some, like, sense of mystery and intrigue and action. So let's add this whole element to it. This, you know, the whole whatever secret agency of, you know, for models and everything.

12:34
Case
Yeah. There were a few times where I was thinking, like, wait, is this a spoof of a movie like, of a different movie. And I was trying to figure it out. And I think it was just, like, probably a lot of bin Stiller's, like, ideas for different types of scenes from other scripts he had worked on at some point or, like, taken a note being like, oh, this would be cool for an action sequence. And then, like, mash them all together.

12:55
Ben
Right?

12:56
Case
Yeah. They offered him enough money to make a sequel. Yeah.

12:58
Ben
Where he finally couldn't say no anymore. It was just like, fine, I'll throw something together and threw a bunch of shit against the wall. And this is what stuck. To fix this movie, though. What would you do? Like, where would you take it? Where would you take this story? I thought there were some elements that. That worked. I liked the death of Matilda. I thought the death of Matilda was actually pretty funny.

13:19
Case
It was actually a lot better than I thought it was going to be.

13:22
Case
I thought.

13:22
Case
I was really opposed to it before I saw the movie. The fact that she appears so much in new material in it is helpful, and obviously, it's because she's married to Ben Stiller. But I actually, I was happy with the way they handled it. I don't know if I would get rid of her because she was our audience viewpoint character in the first movie. Right. And now we're using. We're actually using Derek and Hansel as the audience viewpoint for this movie, where they don't know about the new industry that they're walking into. And so it's been explained to them. But I think we're lacking an actual.

13:57
Addy
Person, and I think that's a huge flaw of it. They just kind of wanted to go nuts with their idea and this idea of them becoming old. And so it feels like you're dealing with sort of a standard sitcom idea of, like, oh, well, now they're old and they're out of date, how are they going to be relevant? Can, you know, the old school version of what they did still be relevant today? And so, I mean, I think it comes back to having some. Either some point to make or some development on the idea they had from before. You know, I think, I don't. I don't think Matilda was so much an issue for me. I would have actually liked them to expand on Megatu, you know.

14:38
Ben
Yeah.

14:39
Case
Him coming back in so late in the movie, I feel like the movie spent a lot of time before they actually got to the ultimate movie that they made of. I think almost all of the actual plot happens in the last, like, 45 minutes, and they spend about 45 minutes kind of wandering to that point. And I think that's the biggest weakness, that you can feel that they're just throwing out all these references and uses of jokes early on, but none of it feeds into the larger story. So that's part of what's kind of depressing. It's like, this. This doesn't feel like a tight comedy, which I think Zoolander one actually was.

15:18
Case
All the weird stuff going on earlier in the movie led into the later scenes, or at the very least, set up reasons for things to be there or things about the characters. This movie had none of that for the first half, and that was depressing, I will say. They did a lot of cameo gags in the first half and throughout the whole movie, and I was really happy with the cameo choices. Like, they clearly ramped it up and had people who loved the movie and were like, yeah, I totally want to be in. Yeah, I'll make a joke about myself. Okay, cool. That was fun.

15:53
Case
I would love to keep them doing that, but maybe not start the movie with the whole retcon to explain where they are now and instead just have Derek and, like, have the school be successful still and, like, it could happen now. Like, it. Like, if you want to kill Mathilda, like, it could still happen, just not, you know, right after the initial scene or, like, not. Right, like, literally the. The day after the epilogue of the first movie.

16:18
Ben
Right.

16:20
Case
So that we could have. We could see Derek as a grown up person who then has all of, like, the life that he's built around himself stripped away instead of him just being in hiding. Although it was really funny having him say he's gonna go be a hermit crab.

16:36
Case
Yeah.

16:37
Addy
I mean, you still have that line.

16:38
Ben
Yeah, there's still some. Some funny lines in that process. I don't know that I don't. Here's. Here's my only problem with that idea is that Zoolander is such idiot that it's. Well, I guess if Matilda was still around, somebody could run that school. But you can't. I can't really imagine Zoolander being successful at anything other than modeling because he's such a moron.

17:01
Addy
Well, that was kind of the point.

17:02
Case
Yeah, that was the point of the first movie.

17:03
Ben
Yeah.

17:03
Case
Like, he had certain strengths, and he could be a leader, and he could. He actually knew some things. Like, you could talk about, like, things to fix your skin tone or all that. Like, he was very knowledgeable about his craft.

17:14
Addy
He's a good you googleizer.

17:18
Case
Damn. Are you son of a. Quoting the first movie the whole time.

17:23
Case
Which was what I felt the second.

17:25
Ben
Movie was trying to do. My biggest complaint about the movie, it felt like it was written by fans.

17:32
Addy
Yeah.

17:32
Ben
First movie. And they were like, I don't actually know how to write my own comedy, so I'm just gonna kind of, like, rip off what, the first one.

17:39
Case
That's a good reference on that because it feels. Fan Ficci.

17:43
Ben
Yeah.

17:43
Case
Like, which is to say there's a lot of things about it where they don't understand the arc of the character.

17:48
Ben
Right.

17:48
Case
Like, the first movie, this. The best point about it was that no one's a good. Like, no one's a fully realized good person in this. In the first movie, like, Matilda goes into it assuming that models are bad people and doesn't like models inherently.

18:02
Case
Right.

18:02
Case
So when she is shown that Derek, who is kind of a selfish jerk and dumb, but also not completely a bad guy, like, he grows, but she grows, too. And that's actually, like, why it works so well together, because it's not just that he becomes a better person, but he also reveals the reasons for why he is the way he is in the first movie. I don't want to make it too deep because it's still Zoolander. It's. But there's elements of there.

18:30
Ben
Yeah.

18:30
Case
Which makes it relatable.

18:31
Ben
Yeah.

18:31
Case
Like, you see, like, why he, like, got into the career he did. Like, what? Like, what drove, like, his thinking and, like, also his redeeming qualities. This movie, you just have Derek. You don't have anyone sort of, like, exploring that because Penelope Cruz is a character whose name doesn't matter.

18:48
Addy
His character doesn't matter.

18:50
Case
Halfway through the movie, I realized that she wasn't just playing Penelope Cruz, and I was like, oh, that's weird that I didn't even realize that.

18:56
Ben
You mean Penelope Cruz isn't a spy?

19:00
Case
Well, no, because I thought. I thought the joke was that she was just undercover.

19:04
Ben
Oh, gotcha.

19:05
Case
Celebrity. Yes, celebrity spy.

19:07
Ben
Like Steven Seagal and Shaq.

19:12
Case
Oh, God. Some Shaq fu could have made this.

19:13
Ben
Movie who might have made it a little bit better, maybe.

19:18
Case
Yeah. So we never get, like, anything for him to grow on. It's like, yeah, you said it was, like, kind of sitcom. It's like, this is now we want to have the status quo and have it start and end at the status quo. And that is why the movie, I think, is particularly ineffective, because there's none of that happening for anyone in this movie, aside from maybe Derek Junior. But even that's like.

19:40
Addy
But Derek Junior is so uninteresting. There's no reason to care about.

19:44
Case
Yeah. And he also doesn't show up until the second half of the movie.

19:47
Addy
Right.

19:47
Case
So another thing that could have just been at the beginning, like, there's a huge chunk of this movie that's just wasted on, like, popping around the country or the world before. Finally we get to, okay, now we're in Rome dealing with this fashion story in that sense. Oh, that was what I was thinking. It almost feels like he'd seen DaVinci code and was like, let's mess with that. Right. But, yeah, basically, I would say cut out the first half of the movie.

20:13
Ben
And get straight to it and just.

20:14
Case
Go straight there and then throw in some of the jokes you like later in and stretch it out. But that's really my big problem with the movie. I think it's very lazy, and as a result, it's so lazy, it takes a while just to even get to the story. So the story feels like an afterthought, and then it just doesn't.

20:33
Ben
Would you keep Mugatu?

20:34
Case
Oh, yeah. I would make him bigger. I would have him be a threat throughout the movie.

20:40
Ben
Right.

20:40
Case
Or at least have him come into play before the third act. Like, have him come in at the halfway point.

20:45
Addy
Well, you can. There's. I mean, it's funny that I'm gonna say this, but there's actually a rich backstory for him as a guy who made piano ties.

20:53
Case
I mean, I know which. None of those things exist in this movie. Like, those characters had those deeper stories in the first movie and it was carried over. And, like, I'm not saying I wanna learn more about Mugatu, but, like, no one in this movie has, like, this deeper backstory. Like, no new detail.

21:10
Ben
Yeah. Those little details that made. Made that character work so well. Like, just. They just kind of, like, forgot that they needed to do that.

21:17
Case
Yeah.

21:17
Ben
These characters.

21:18
Addy
And as funny as, like, I thought Christian Wiig was funny.

21:21
Case
Oh, yeah. She. Her, like, her being this, like, unable to be, like, understood, like, weird, like, affectation. Yeah, it was perfect. She was great. And, yeah, we could set her up early on as being, like, secretly working for Megatu and then, like, drop hints early in the movie. But aside from the fact that we all knew that Will Ferrell was coming back for it, there was no reason to be. Got to. Was going to be in the movie. Like, the first half of the movie doesn't really do anything with that. Right. And once he's about to show up, they hit it home very quickly. But, like, it's. His presence is again like, feels like an afterthought. It's like, oh, now we got to get to Mugatu.

21:59
Ben
Yeah.

21:59
Case
Okay, now.

22:00
Case
Well, what it felt a little bit.

22:01
Ben
To me was like, oh, crap, will ferrell's really expensive. We can really only afford him for half. This movie is exactly how it felt to me.

22:10
Case
Well, you don't even need to do that many more scenes with him.

22:12
Case
You should.

22:13
Case
It's. All of his stuff happens at the end.

22:17
Ben
Yeah.

22:17
Case
So he could have broken out of prison at the halfway mark, and then, like, you kept all those scenes, and then you had to, like, put some filler stuff in between.

22:24
Addy
Right.

22:25
Case
Which you would have to, because we're cutting out all the stuff from the beginning.

22:28
Ben
Right.

22:28
Case
Like, to stretch it out a little bit. Yeah.

22:30
Ben
I don't know. Again, I'll just. This movie just so disappointed me.

22:38
Case
I would.

22:38
Ben
I would keep Bugatti to Mugatu, I think is, like, critical for a Zoolander.

22:42
Addy
Yeah.

22:43
Ben
Movie. Like, I don't. As funny as Kristen weeks character was, like, I didn't love it nearly as much as I loved him. A got to.

22:50
Addy
Yeah.

22:50
Ben
Like, oh. And I didn't feel like that was, like she was interesting in any way. I guess maybe they could have made her interesting by putting in little details.

22:58
Case
Like, well, I didn't feel like she was that into the first or in the movie period. Like, she was around. She would. Right.

23:05
Ben
Very unclear what she was doing. Yeah.

23:07
Case
Doesn't have much of a plot. So her presence isn't really there.

23:10
Case
Like, they're like, it.

23:12
Addy
It goes back to what you're saying. Nobody really had any fleshed out motivations or, like, it seems like nobody bothered to write a backstory for any characters other than, like, well, this is what Derek was doing, and this is what Hans was doing, you know, and so.

23:25
Ben
And then we just eventually we got to get him to Italy for a show, and then. And then the movie will start.

23:30
Case
Well, like, that first fashion show, I think, has a lot of the problems of the movie all rolled in one. Okay. So when Derek and Hansel first are leaving their hotel rooms to go like, wow, everyone. They're like, hey, we're back, guys. I was thinking as they were getting dressed, like, you know, even though the movie came out or, like, the first one came out 15 years earlier and they've been out of touch with society. Like, men's fashion hasn't changed that much in those 15 years. Like, I didn't think that there was really anything that they wore, even stuff that was very, like, chic at the time that is definitely not chic anymore was going to be, like, offensively bad today, which is, I would say, is true.

24:09
Ben
Well, then you don't know your fashion case.

24:11
Case
But then that's the thing. The only areas where it's really changed are at the highest levels of fashion, like, the truly trendy components of men's attire. And we do see that when they then go down. But nothing felt that bad or that weird. I mean, they're 15 years older, some of those outfits flat out would not work on them. Like, a modern outfit for, like, a 20 something male model would not look good on Ben Stiller, like, in any capacity or with any suspension of disbelief. But that, I think, is the problem, which is that we are still using the lens of the fashion industry to tell the story, but we're not really talking about the fashion industry for real. Like, we're not looking at how things have changed in fashion between then and now, aside from, like, oh, hey, phones are big now.

24:59
Case
And they used to be joking. Like, comically small. Okay? Like, that lens could still work, but they don't look at anything from it. They don't look at how, like, reality television has changed things. They don't look at how being a celebrity has changed completely. Like, YouTube, Instagram, all these things. Like, they make a reference to Instagram, like, Bieber, like, when he dies, gets a selfie. But that culture is radically different from where Zoolander one was, and they never talk about it. How interesting would it be if they pulled Zoolander out of retirement to be on Project Runway and the indignity of being one of the models on Project Runway and not even one of the stars of the show, that could have been something we never talked about, the modern fashion industry. So we're not.

25:50
Case
But we're still using fashion as our lens for the world, but we don't really look at the world. So that element, like, the purpose of them being male models is gone. And then they go. And they have this one of the scenes that caught a lot of heat, which is the Benedict Cumberbatch cameo. So his character, I think the joke they're trying to tell is the joke about the asexuality of models to a certain degree, how we want male models who look like these non sexualized men or very prepubescent, and we want women who are skinny and flat chested and essentially looking almost the exact same. And that's the joke right there, that we really want to strip sexuality away from fashion. The thing that's on sale isn't how good the person who wears the outfit looks.

26:41
Case
It's how good the art piece that we're putting on their person. But it comes off as a bit transphobic. And a lot of people felt that going into the movie. And I know I do remember there being controversy about that, and I don't think they do anything to really fix that. Like, we live in a different time now, and especially if we're talking about an industry that already, the first one, dealt with issues of unfair representations of the human body and how that effect on people and how sexuality plays with it all.

27:16
Case
I felt they could have done more to justify that scene or cut it because it was only kind of funny and it was nice to have Benedict Cumberbatch, but you knew it was going to draw heat because people care about that stuff, and they care about it a lot more than they did in 2001.

27:31
Ben
Well, not only do they care, it's okay if they did it, but it didn't have anything to say. It didn't add it. It wasn't smart. It was just a throw, a joke, really.

27:40
Case
Right. That's why, like, me trying to justify it, even as me, like, being, like, I think I can reach for what they were getting at, right.

27:47
Ben
Because, like you were pointing to in Zoolander one, there's all sorts of jokes and there's all sorts of commentary about the industry, the end, and the world and how we view ourselves and how we partake media and what it means to be fat or to be pretty or to be, you know, good looking and what that all means. And there was none of that in this movie. There was really no thought behind this movie. It was just strung together jokes, some of which were very funny and some of which fall flat. But there was no real thought. There was no purpose in this movie, unlike there was in Zoolander one. Now, I'm not trying to say, like, Zoolander one was like this super deep, fancy, you know, like, brainiac movie that would change the world.

28:32
Ben
But it did have some points to make, which all good comedy does. All good comedy is trying to make a point is to get you to see a different viewpoint. And I don't think there was a viewpoint to be seen in this movie.

28:45
Case
It's all about providing a certain point of view.

28:50
Addy
Brandy.

28:52
Ben
Wow, we're really smart.

28:57
Case
Yeah. I mean, I think they were doing an uphill battle regardless. I was trying to think before I watched it, like, what successful comedy sequels have been out there? And I mean, like, especially in the last, like, let's say, last 40 years. You know, it's hard to think of, like, a lot of really good ones. Certainly not ones that are like long series of successes. Like, you've got a few that are, like, technically sequels, like airplane two. You've got ones that are series that are already just parodies of individual movies coming out.

29:31
Addy
Not to spin this out into another, like, to get into a different movie. But did you think Anchorman two was good? Even just with.

29:39
Case
I was gonna get to that one.

29:40
Addy
Because I like Anchorman two a lot. I felt it stood on its own fairly well.

29:45
Ben
That had something to say.

29:46
Addy
Yeah. Like, there was. There was a statement about the industry.

29:50
Case
Yes.

29:50
Case
I thought increment was smarter. I kind of need to rewatch that because I remember watching it and being kind of surprised. It also was a meandering movie. Yeah. And that I lost interest a couple of times when I was watching it and it was just sort of on. So I never really.

30:09
Ben
It's not as good of a movie as the first one, but it stands up.

30:12
Addy
Just the first one is just so quotable, too. I mean.

30:15
Case
Right?

30:15
Addy
Yeah, yeah.

30:16
Ben
But I would say anchorman two is light years ahead of where Zoolander two is.

30:21
Addy
Okay.

30:22
Case
Yeah. I'd have to look at it again. But I think the. I think pop culture, though, has sort of moved on from Anchorman two. It was generally people like, eh. And then moved on. Zoolander two people totally forgot or before.

30:35
Ben
It was even in theaters.

30:39
Case
Going up against Deadpool.

30:40
Addy
Going up against Deadpool is the dumbest thing they could have done.

30:43
Case
But, like, think about it.

30:44
Ben
Who would have known, though? Like, come on.

30:46
Case
American pie two, for example, a successful comedy. I thought, like, the rest of the series is bad, but that was a good sequel. I'm really at a loss for, like, coming or thinking about three men and a baby.

31:00
Ben
Okay, let's see, what else do we got? I can. I can come up with more.

31:05
Case
Yeah, I think if you really.

31:11
Ben
Yeah.

31:12
Case
And it was good.

31:12
Case
Yeah.

31:13
Case
Okay.

31:15
Ben
I'm going back to the eighties, so.

31:17
Case
I know you guys can argue with me. That's a valid point. And I'm saying, like, if we go back 40 years, which takes us to the seventies, like the Godfather, we're not getting into an argument of Ken sequels. I think there's a lot of times, especially with some of these, like, actor pairings, where they can make a series of good movies and sometimes they might have a super title that covers all of them. I mentioned this to my dad. He's like the Marx brothers. I'm like, no, that doesn't count. It's just they made a bunch of movies. They're not in continuity with each other, and we're not talking about the character.

31:54
Case
Growth of the dictator.

31:56
Ben
Right, right.

32:01
Case
You can't say that anchorman, for example, is a sequel to old school, even though it's a lot of shared people. You might be able to make a claim about, like, Judd Apatow comedies. Oh. This is 40 is technically a sequel.

32:13
Ben
It's.

32:13
Case
But it's a completely side movie from.

32:16
Ben
Oh, that's right.

32:17
Case
Because it's knockout. Yeah.

32:19
Ben
This is the same as one and right up.

32:21
Addy
Oh.

32:22
Case
Although I will say no, which is funny.

32:24
Addy
I enjoy the one that I was like is sort of my aunt movie. In the Judd Apatow movies at the time.

32:30
Case
I loved it. I can't. I can't really feel anything about it anymore.

32:36
Ben
I definitely have never wanted to go watch it.

32:38
Addy
40 year old Virgin is still one of my favorites of his.

32:41
Case
The 40 year old virgin was, like, a little too close to home. Like, when it came out, I was like, oh, there. By the grace of God, go away.

32:54
Ben
Oh, that's hilarious.

32:57
Case
Which I think why it was so successful. This is 40, I will say, was an enjoyable movie. It's barely a sequel. It's, like, just by happenstance in a way that I love that movie. It is a movie that has made me want to slit my wrists every time I've watched it, though. I first saw that back to back with looking for a friend for the end of the world, which I felt was very hopeful. It's a movie about, surprisingly, a meteorite is about to destroy the world.

33:24
Addy
That was what Steve Carell is.

33:26
Case
Steve Carell, yeah. And, like, they go off on a road trip, and it was actually kind of fun. And at the end, I'm like, oh, yeah, life is worth living, even if you know it's gonna end. This is 40. I was like, I don't have a purpose in this world. You do not already, like, it's over, baby. Like, I'm 32, and I've already wasted all of my purpose. Yes, you have.

33:45
Ben
It's over.

33:45
Case
This is it.

33:46
Ben
This is as good as it gets.

33:47
Case
Yeah.

33:47
Ben
I love. I love. This is 40. I think that's my favorite one of his. And just because I am over 40.

33:52
Case
And it really rings true.

33:56
Ben
It really rings true.

33:58
Case
But ultimately, I'm just saying it's hard to make a sequel.

34:00
Ben
It is.

34:01
Case
It's really hard to make a comedy sequel that's gonna work. Like, I'm saying, like, oh, hey, it'd be great to have Mathilda around. And I actually would love to have a movie that wasn't like, well, we need to have a main character falling in love story. And, you know, I wouldn't want them to do it with Hansel because I was much happier with him having his orgy. Like, that was actually a really fun detail. I was like, oh, that is Hansel. So, sure, studios love to do those kind of things, but I would like to see a movie where you can just have a couple, be a couple, and not have that be the thing going on in the background. That doesn't need to be the Beatle.

34:33
Addy
It felt like there was like, well, we need to hit all four quadrants, and this was a romance somehow wedged into this story.

34:41
Case
But how much nicer would it be just to have a husband and wife pairing on a movie where in real life they're a husband and wife pairing? And it's just like, nice.

34:50
Addy
It sounds like you need to go back to I love Lucy for that.

34:53
Case
Except it's a much relationship. I know. I mean, it's hard. And I think that they did not give it enough effort because they knew that all the money they were going to make was going to be the same regardless. The people who are going to go see it were going to be the same people based on the marketing push, who were like, oh, yeah, I loved Zoolander one. I need to see a comedy today. And then that was it. Because, like, I think we're in a post. Like, we're in the post dvd sale region. So, like, the aftermarket is not as profitable as it used to be for movies, so they can't rely on that as much anymore, which is kind of terrifying when you think about the industry.

35:35
Case
So maybe they just realized, like, okay, well, at this point now, like, Netflix is gonna pick it up. They didn't yet, but, like, someone is gonna pick it up for streaming. We'll make our money from the contract to get that. We're not really going to see much money from actual people watching it. So aside from the people who went to see it in theaters, which they knew was going to be a limited number, and that was it. So maybe more effort wouldn't have saved that. I mean, like, maybe a more successful movie wasn't going to be more financially successful. Probably not. So maybe they understood that and they just were like, okay, fuck it. Let's just do it.

36:07
Addy
Pretty hard on that, though.

36:08
Case
Yeah, but that's all just the marketing. Like, you just need to have a couple funny scenes for trailers. Maybe they just understood, like, this movie literally doesn't matter. I don't need to do a third draft.

36:18
Ben
Well, yeah. And that's disappointing to me because I have such high respect for Ben Stiller and his career and the comedy that he's written. It's disappointing to me. And I guess I can't really fault him. I don't know that I wouldn't do it myself, but it feels like somebody just handed him a bag of money and he was like, well, fuck it. I'll make the stupid movie.

36:37
Case
Whatever.

36:38
Ben
I'm just gonna phone it in because they've just. They finally came with a big enough number that I'm gonna do this.

36:43
Case
Yeah. Or he had something that in particular he needed, like, the money for.

36:46
Ben
Right, right.

36:48
Case
How great would it be if he started an actual center for people who can't read good?

36:54
Ben
It would be pretty. Pretty amazing. So that's disappointing to think of it that way, and I don't like to think of it that way. And I like to think that they did try. And I want to blame the studio for getting involved and rewriting it and screwing it up, even though I don't know that's what happened. But in my own head, that's what happened. Studio involvement ruined this movie. There, I said it.

37:17
Case
Or studio lack of involvement. I mean, this could be one where, like, really they needed someone who could tell them no.

37:21
Ben
Maybe.

37:21
Addy
Yeah, I think I'm a little. I feel like it was more on that end.

37:26
Case
Yeah. Where it was just a phantom menace.

37:28
Ben
But he waited. If he's going to be purely masturbatory and just be like. And I'm going to tell all the jokes. I wanted to. Don't you think he would have done it before now?

37:35
Case
No. This is the phantom menace scenario, right? Like, in a nutshell. Like, it was enough time. Like, knew he could get the money. Right? Like, primed for nostalgia. Like. And then no one could tell him. Like, he could just make the movie he wanted to make with little effort and everyone would just be enthusiastic about it being like, oh, we're gonna make a ton of money.

37:55
Case
Great, cool.

37:56
Case
And that's it.

37:57
Addy
And they just left him alone. Maybe not to say that.

38:01
Case
I mean, yeah, I mean, there's too.

38:02
Addy
Many factors that could have gone into this.

38:04
Case
So this was directed by Ben Stiller, and the writing credit is a bunch of people, including Stiller, but also Jon Hamburg, Justin Theroux and Nick Stiller.

38:18
Ben
Is that the same writing team from the first one? Do we know let me IMDb that real quick. That's what we have this thing called the Internet, the internal Internet, webs, IMDb.com. Let's go there now, huh?

38:31
Addy
Or you could go to certainpiov.com where.

38:33
Ben
We won't have any of that information for you, but lots of other great.

38:36
Case
Information directed by Stiller. And it's a writing team of many of the same people.

38:44
Ben
There's so it's basically the same writing team, effectively.

38:46
Case
Yeah.

38:46
Ben
Yeah. That's disappointing to me. It's disappointing to me. Yeah, you'd think they'd know better.

38:52
Addy
I mean, sometimes, like, I think it's, I mean, that's one of the tough things with any, like, writing anything creative, though. Like, sometimes you can have certain ideas in your head that may, like that as a group you think are funny. Like, there could be great inside jokes that we think are funny and that we think everybody else would find funny and just, they just aren't. I mean, it's just like, I mean, comedy itself, like, we've been talking about the fact that sequels are very hit or miss with comedies, but even the first movie in any comedy series is hit or miss. It's a tough, very tough category.

39:28
Case
It is.

39:28
Ben
But it's odd to me that they were able to hit it so on the nose in the first movie and then miss it so completely in the second.

39:36
Case
Well, I think. Cause if you look at Zoolander in the larger grouping of movies that Stiller has written, I think it is unique in that it is really talking about modern culture and, like, all the things that Ben Stiller was worried about. I think this movie, like, it feels like Ben Stiller is, like, a little less in touch than he was with the first one. I mean, it's true. He's a bigger star. He's got other things that he worried. He's worried about. He's probably not thinking about, like, YouTube celebrities or how, like, Netflix is changing the way movie distribution is working. That's probably true. And as a result, he doesn't really have a lot of things to comment on. Like, like I said, I think if this movie focused on actual issues of the fashion industry, that would be one thing.

40:22
Case
But I don't think they researched it for the first one either. I think they just went with jokes that they could make about it, kind of relating Hollywood lifestyle with the fashion lifestyle, assuming it was probably pretty similar. This movie did not do anything, I think, to move beyond the set of jokes they had. And then they were like, well, and our set, like, probably the joke about, like, what people are wearing was a note was like. And our costumer or set, like, wardrobe person will have them wearing things that are modern and chic, and they'll be wearing things that look cool 15 years ago, and, like, that'll be it.

40:54
Case
Like, I think they probably just put notes about that other people on the team could then look up without having, like, a lot of thought into why those jokes were the way they were. Yeah, it's just a lazy movie. Like, that's it. Like, yeah, everything that would make the movie better would just be like, God damn it.

41:16
Ben
Just put some thought into it.

41:17
Case
Yeah. Like, speed up. Speed up the plot. You know, don't, like, have something to say about the industry that you're. You're dealing with, even if it, like, even if it's, like, super focused on, like, a specific show, like, a fashion show in particular, and the headaches that go into that. Like, sure, it's this weird absurdist comedy, but, like, it has to rely on some, like, some passion, which I just don't think the movie has.

41:43
Ben
Yeah.

41:44
Case
So if I was gonna take another pass at this, I would completely shift the action to get it underway faster and then have it be more focused on things that have impacted their careers as a result of changes, for sure. Which is weird that they don't. It doesn't really. It. The opening part of the movie has jokes about them getting old and out of touch, but we actually don't really have the. The crux of the movie has nothing to do with them being out of touch.

42:09
Ben
Yeah, that's a side note.

42:11
Case
Yeah. Like, this could have been, like, the second half of the movie could have taken place the day after Zoolander one. Yeah.

42:18
Ben
Well, so could the first move, like, you know, coming out of touch like, that could just be a natural progression.

42:24
Case
Throughout the movie, and he doesn't. They don't need to be in exile to do it. They've just as easily been just celebrities. And that could have been a conversation about Stiller's life as now. Like, a fairly important player in Hollywood who is not on the front lines anymore. Like, he's not making a lot of movies anymore, but he's a producer and he's rich.

42:43
Ben
Like, he's, like, he's done well.

42:44
Case
Yeah. Like, that could be. Then the commentary of, like, once you.

42:48
Ben
Make it and you reach a certain.

42:49
Case
Level, two should be about the process of going out and making Zoolander. Two, essentially. Like, it should. It should have been Ben Stiller still.

42:56
Ben
Trying to remain relevant.

42:57
Case
Yeah, like a meta commentary about, like, Ben Stiller's own issues with his creative endeavors. Now that he's, like, a more established.

43:03
Ben
Person, that actually would be fascinating. I'd love to hear his commentary on that. I think that would have made a much better movie.

43:08
Case
Yeah. Don't you miss commentary tracks?

43:10
Ben
Yeah, I do. I do.

43:12
Case
Oh, God, I wonder if that. All right, well, I think we have said all we have to say because this. The problem with this movie is that it was lazy. So the rewrites would be fairly extensive, and it's comedy, so the jokes actually sort of require the whole structure to be really well put out. And I'm not gonna just rewrite a comedy right now for everyone. So we're gonna call this not without.

43:35
Ben
A big bag of money.

43:36
Case
No, definitely not on a podcast where I just outline. Here's my idea about a 90 minutes comedy. It's gonna be great. It'll hit all four quadrants. Bam.

43:45
Case
Have fun, guys.

43:46
Case
Go make that movie.

43:47
Ben
And that's how Zoolander two is written.

43:51
Case
So next time, we're gonna be talking about Highlander two. And stay scruffy, my nerf herders. Thanks for listening to certain point of views. Another pass podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com.

44:35
Sam
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44:39
Case
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44:50
Sam
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44:52
Case
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45:03
Sam
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45:09
Case
And we're back. All right. Yeah. So, Sam, we didn't talk about this in the pre show, but what is your history with the Zoolander franchise? Not just Zoolander two, which you think you may have seen in theaters, which sounds like all of us, frankly, but, yeah. What is your history with Zoolander as a franchise?

45:30
Sam
I mean, I definitely saw the first Zoolander, and I'm pretty sure I saw that in theaters when I enjoyed the first Zoolander. I think most people who were alive during the first one. No, that was something that was a fun piece of media to consume. It is a movie that is built on dumb, smart humor where, like, things are done like, they're very dumb people at the center of it, like kind of making a slightly intelligent commentary about the world. And there's a lot of wordplay. Right. Like Zoolander himself is really dumb and he can't read very well. And, you know, there's a lot of, like, funny things that he does with that stuff. So a lot of it is just like silly comedy. And I think that's great. Right. I. Silly comedies are amazing and when you do them right, they're fantastic.

46:30
Sam
I do not know if I actually saw this movie in theaters, Zoolander two, because it was 15 years later and I just wasn't sure if, you know, that was worth it. If I did see it, I probably saw it on tv. I probably saw it somewhere at home or trapped in someone's house while they played it on dvd. I don't think I actually paid money to see this because even though I liked the first movie, I really just felt like this might be a little too late, you know? Nice to have Will Ferrell back. Always, always fun to see him. Kristen Wake was nice. This is a deeply strange movie, which is not all bad. It's not all bad, but it's mostly not good.

47:33
Case
Yeah.

47:34
Case
And this is why it was like a weird one for us to approach in the first place. For this one. I stand by my whole, the first half of the movie are all just skits that they could have inserted anywhere and that the back half of the movie is the actual movie in terms of actually having a plot.

47:50
Sam
Yeah, 100%.

47:52
Case
And that sort of is thesis of like, what the actual pitch that we offer in this episode is that make that the whole movie and just insert those jokes in there as opposed to two separate things. But it's also, who the hell cares about Zoo Lander two.

48:17
Sam
Yeah. It is kind of this really strange idea. Hey, let's do this movie again, you know, and it kind of feels, I think Zoolander one is such a good completion of itself. Right. It doesn't actually. It is a good standalone film. It does not need any more film at all. It is. There's a, like a good film should have a beginning, middle, and an end. And the end feels quite satisfying. It feels good. It feels happy. It feels exactly what a silly comedy should feel like. So to bring this back 15 years later and to kind of do this also, it just feels very odd because some of the things are incredibly out of touch. Like this came out like, what, 2016?

49:17
Sam
And so there's like this attempt to kind of like call out fat phobia like, in the fashion world, but it just is Zoolander being, like, incredibly insensitive to his fat son, which feels a little weird and stilted. I think you did mention in this, you know, in the episode that the movie itself, it feels like and Stiller has, is not quite in touch. Right. That's one of those things. They also make a nod to, like, the fact that, like, fashion was, like, becoming very non binary and they have Cumberbatch actually play this non binary model named all, which is just kind of like an interesting thing, right. Kind of like commentary. And. And I think back in 2016, maybe weren't thinking about it as much, but the whole thing is kind of icky and kind of transphobic now.

50:24
Sam
There's like a really weird, like, Zoolander can't wrap his mind around all being both lady and man and being all. So there's like a, there's some things that feel really dated, and they feel especially dated now on the other side of everything. But I feel like they were kind. They were definitely out of step even then. But yeah, it's like weird moments like that. I think also, like, using this is so stupid because it's just like, in the spirit of the stupidity of the movie, but using the female leads character, she says, grab my breast. They're like. They're for buoyancy because she's a swimsuit model. Just really dumb things that I think in the early nineties, early two thousands, you get away with a lot easier than in 2016. Probably felt really flat.

51:25
Sam
And things like that were being called out a lot more by that time. And although those are kind of on pace for things that would happen in, like, the Austin power movies and, like, Zoolander and Mystery man and all these things, like, by 2016, you know, not to say that there aren't raunchy jokes. I mean, that year, Deadpool came out, as we know, because of the episode, but it just feels like that particular kind of thing just feels very, like, dated, you know? So there are things like that in the movie that feel dated even from when it came out and then feels really bad for someone watching it now.

52:07
Case
Oh, Jesus. Yeah.

52:10
Sam
You know, so I think that's kind of interesting. But overall, I think what this movie really suffers from is just, and I think you hit the nail on the head when you said this in the, you know, in the episode itself is that it just is not saying anything. It's just kind of here because the first Zoolander kind of had a bit of a critique of, like, fashion and what we put it, you know, how much we put into this world and things like that. And this movie was just like, let's go down. Remember that movie that we all liked in the two thousands? Let's do that movie. And then put lots of cameos in it. And, like, don't get me wrong, the cameos were great. They were great and wonderfully placed. But that's basically what this movie was.

53:00
Sam
It was just like, it was fine, you know, but not all the jokes land. You know, I still actually still had a couple of chuckles here and there. Even watching it now on the other side of 2016.

53:19
Case
Yeah, it's not a movie that I was, like, mad that I watched. It's just not a movie. Like, it's just not a movie that I can easily remember that I watched. So I think it passes some time, but it's just not, you know, it doesn't live up to the previous one. The big point I make in the episode that were kind of talking about is that the first movie is a discussion about celebrity culture, and by way of talking about fashion, and it allows it to be kind of galvanized in sort of, like, funny ways that sort of people can identify as being like, oh, those fashion models, they're so crazy. And then the second one doesn't have really anything new to say about celebrity.

54:03
Case
And because Binstler has been kind of isolated from, you know, the common struggles for a while now, he doesn't really have anything new to say about it. And then you get to this movie, and so, well, what can we talk about? And, like, well, it doesn't have that heart. It doesn't have that underlying self reflection that the first one does. And as a result, it's just making jokes about fashion that don't really stick because, like I said, it doesn't really have, like, a bigger point that it's trying to make by way of making those jokes.

54:38
Sam
Yeah, and I also. There's something that you said in the episode just about killing off his wife.

54:45
Case
Yeah.

54:47
Sam
But I was like, you know, when I was watching it, I was not a particular fan of it. Like, I understand we get, like, a new lady in Penelope Cruz is, you know, she's good, she's funny in it, but it just feels sad to not have the same old gang and then also to, like, teleport your wife in to be, like, move on, just cut. It was kind of odd. It was like this weird decision made. And again, this movie is a frickin fever dream. There's, like, they want the end to be such a twisted that there's nothing in the beginning that leads you towards the end. And they basically pack the end with all these cameo of all these fashion designers and fashion tastemakers, including Anna Wintour, to basically get the elixir of life, which is to kill.

55:48
Sam
To kill Derek Zoolander's son because he's got the fountain of youth inside of him, which is just a ruse anyway. It's a red herring. This movie's ridiculous. Like, if you had to, like, describe the plot to someone, they'd be like, wait, what? Why?

56:07
Case
Right?

56:08
Case
What? Why is exactly right.

56:11
Sam
Yeah. So I just. I just think, like. Like, there's this idea of, like, oh, youth. Like, I feel like there's a. In there. There's, like, a kernel of something talking about, like, being a. Has been being someone whose time has passed, right? And there's, like, a little bit of acknowledgement of. Of that, but he didn't lean into it enough. Right. And so, like, truth is that they could have gone, and I think you've mentioned this, too, they could have been so meta with this, right. They could have really, like, leaned into this idea of, like, being past and, you know, trying to recapture something that is beyond that.

56:54
Sam
And I think if Zoolander had a speech about, like, being old and being lame and it's okay and you accept it and, like, you know, one of his, like, crazy speeches at the end, it might have actually saved the movie, because what. What are these fashion designers doing? They're trying to kill a child to drink its blood so that they can be young forever. And the first scene, the first fashion scene where all whips Zoolander and his best buddy slash rival, his frenemy is he basically, they call him losers. They call them old. They call them passe. They call them. Right? And so, like, had we at least had a speech about, like, no, it's okay. We don't. We can age gracefully. It's okay to let go. It's okay to be a loser.

57:48
Sam
I think it would have saved the movie just slightly because that's kind of like, there is, like, a nugget in there about this idea of being out of touch with the new technology, being out of place, not being the hip thing anymore, not being what people are looking to. And I think that would have been a more interesting journey for Ben Stiller, who now, 15 years later, revisiting something that was a hit for him, but unfortunately, that gets muddled in everything else and the silly. And so we don't really get a real thesis out of that.

58:33
Case
Film.

58:33
Sam
And I feel like that there's some of that in there. And if it could have been fleshed out, I think that it still would have been a deeply silly movie. But I think that we would have at least had a message, like a clear message from the film.

58:52
Case
Right. Which this movie unfortunately lacks.

58:55
Sam
Yeah, yeah.

58:59
Case
Yeah, yeah. It's so frustrating because this movie just fades away completely after watching. I'm staring at the Wikipedia article right now and I'm like, have I seen this movie before? And I have multiple times for this show.

59:29
Sam
I love that.

59:30
Case
But that's the thing.

59:31
Sam
I really, truly believe that in a couple of years, I will listen back to this episode and not really remember half of what I'm talking about right now.

59:44
Case
Right. Like, that's the insane thing. And the weird part about me watching, or rather the weird part about me listening to the old episodes, with you on this is like, oh, right, yeah, no, this is a point that I made. What. What was I thinking then? Like, how. How was my brain functioning? And sometimes I agree with myself, but, like, this is. This is one where, like, my ability to hold on to the details of this movie just, like, astound me.

01:00:09
Sam
Yeah, it is. It is. It is crazy. Especially for, like, I will say this for our listeners, guys. Hayes has a lot of useful and useless knowledge that he stores in his brain at all times. Like, he is definitely someone that if I want to know a fact about something, especially a thing in his wheelhouse, like Bear wolf, I can message him at any time and he will be able to tell me the thing. Like, for him to not remember this movie is a very big deal to me and probably to any of his friends because he remembers things.

01:00:51
Case
Right. Like, that's my thing and this movie is just not ok. Yeah. So talking about the episode itself. Yeah, like I said, we sound great. We've got great rapporte. Those parts are really solid. The structure is. It feels like it's always going to be a little more informal with Ben and Addie because they're the ones I started the show with versus with a new guest. It's sort of like, well, I'm super leading the conversation, but I think back to the first episode where it took me a moment when we started the episode for me to be like, oh, right, I'm the host and they're not because I'm so used to letting them be a little bit of the point person because normally I had been the guest on their show at this point.

01:01:50
Sam
Right.

01:01:51
Case
So it's kind of one of those specific people is the vibe kind of thing, the way that people act certain ways around certain friends. And very much with Ben and Addie, we just like to riff a lot with each other. And so it was that kind of an episode.

01:02:11
Sam
Yeah, I think it's a great episode. And I think, like I said, this is the episode that Zoolander two deserves because there's so much coming at you in both the movie and this episode, from your riffing that at the end, you're like, wow, that was a lot.

01:02:28
Case
Yeah.

01:02:29
Sam
Although I will say that this episode was better than the movie.

01:02:39
Case
I mean, that's a low bar. I don't know if I would call this a great episode. I would call this a perfectly good episode. Great sort of would require us to have, actually, a really good pitch in there, whereas in this, we have some pretty good notes, but it's just not as solidified because the movie itself was already kind of just, like, a bunch of sketches.

01:03:02
Sam
Yeah. Yeah.

01:03:07
Case
Which does make me recall that we will, at some point, have to talk about Spice World, which is another movie that is just a bunch of sketches that I'm looking forward for your input on.

01:03:17
Sam
Cannot wait.

01:03:22
Case
Man. The show has been going for so long. At one point, I mentioned that I'm 32 while we're recording this, which I must have been about to turn 33, because, like, they're like, I. I can't have been doing this for eight years now, can I? Jesus Christ.

01:03:39
Sam
Maybe.

01:03:40
Case
Is that how math works?

01:03:40
Sam
I think that is how math works. Yeah. For sure.

01:03:48
Case
Yep.

01:03:49
Sam
Yeah, it's okay.

01:03:50
Case
Damn. Eternal constant.

01:03:52
Sam
There's. I think that, like, you know, 2020 has, like, an asterisk on it, so I don't think it counts. So maybe it's, like, seven years.

01:04:02
Case
No, unfortunately, my body is feeling the woes of having crossed over the threshold into his forties, as we're all aware. But, yeah. So, yeah, before we started recording, I said, I don't know how much we have to say about this, because I think it was a pretty good episode for the movie that were talking about. But it's really quick, and, like, it's mostly like, yeah, three guys riff about a movie. Ta da. Like, you know, I don't have a ton to say about it. Like, it's. Again, like, we don't have, like, real pitches to, like, really, like, throw out there as being like, well, this one was a good pitch, and this one was a bad pitch. It was more like. That was a. Yeah, though. These are all perfectly good notes.

01:04:48
Sam
Yeah. Honestly, you could have taken any one of them and made a decent movie. And my thing is, you know, just clean it up at the end. Make it about being out of touch. Make it about being out of touch and accepting that it's okay to be old and out of touch. And that's still cool, too. Yeah. Yeah. And then have Zoolander back on the top of the world because he's accepted the position, you know, his life. Let's all, let's all age with grace, just like case.

01:05:21
Case
Yeah. I mean, because I do want to say I think Zoolander two could have been legitimately good, but I don't think that they came at this movie the way it should have been approached. Like, the first Zoolander is about something. If the second one was okay, well, 15 years later, we have all these things that we want to think about. Also, we didn't talk about how this, we talk about digital distribution a lot in this episode. And it's wild where it's like, this is, like, 2017, and it's like, oh, yeah. Like three years later, like, all the streaming stuff did, like, kill, like, media. Like, in a lot of ways, it's wild where we're, like, talking about it and we're right on the precipice of such a shift in the markets.

01:06:13
Sam
You know?

01:06:14
Case
No, it's true and all that.

01:06:23
Case
Yeah.

01:06:25
Case
So it's fun listening back to this episode. And like I said, we are making good points that should have been approached for this movie. The movie that was made could have really thought about, well, what is the direction that this character could be in, deal with? You know, we talk about, like, well, what if it is a fated celebrity? Like, what is that like? And that's certainly a story that could be told. Like, there's, there is stuff that Stiller could have drawn on to make it a more personal movie and to structure it that way, the way that the first one is a more personal movie when you really get down to it, like, it's all the absurdity of the male model stuff that's being thrown in there.

01:07:09
Case
But that's, like I said, just a way of, like, you know, shielding Stiller from being, like, too exposed.

01:07:17
Sam
Right.

01:07:18
Case
You know, it's not just a biopic. It's like, well, here's just my reflections on this world that I'm in. And I just, you know, it's the kind of thing where it's like, yeah, it was 15 years later and he's being nostalgic as opposed to being reflective of his current experiences.

01:07:37
Sam
Yeah, yeah.

01:07:37
Case
You know, and I think that's the difference there. It is a nostalgic movie when it should have been a reflective movie, and that's why we can't really remember it very well.

01:07:55
Sam
Pretty much. We've summed it up nicely.

01:08:00
Case
So on that note, let's get into. Our notes are so for people who are listening, let's see, I'm going to chop this all down. Sure. When this episode drops, our last app episode will have been on Thor two, and then our next app episode will be on. Ooh, on the first Michael Bay Transformers movie. So that will be with a new guest. It's my friend Tom, who is a very knowledgeable nerd and will be an interesting conversation. It's a quick episode. I remember we ended up being on some very big tangents when we talked to, because we're friends from high school, and those tangents were like, this is too far for the episode. And at the time, I was more sensitive about the runtime of the episodes, or rather, had in my mind that the episodes could be 20 something minutes.

01:09:22
Case
So what is this? It's a pretty short episode. Let me see what the runtime on this one is. It's 27 minutes. So this might be the shortest episode of the show.

01:09:46
Sam
Well, that will be incredibly interesting, then.

01:09:51
Case
Yeah, so it's a fun episode. And meanwhile, in terms of the main show, the last episode that dropped as of us. Hang on. I need to actually do math.

01:10:10
Case
Because.

01:10:10
Case
We'Re recording ahead and not just the media. Next. So the last episode as of now, as for the main show, when this episode drops, the last episode will be a dirty shame. Where we had Wes Johnson, who was in the movie, as our guest for that one, which was a lot of fun. He's a talented voice actor and a cool guy and did a ton of voices while doing the episode. So that was a good one. And then next, we're looking at the grudge, which we've got Ben Hassler from. From reels of justice. I keep saying Hassler, it's Haslar. But from the Reels of Justice podcast, which is a really fun show that I've been on three times now and won all three goddamn court cases talking about movies.

01:11:07
Sam
That's my co host. That's my co host.

01:11:11
Case
It is a show where you go into a fictional court to either prosecute or defend a movie as being a bad movie. And I have won three times, including for alien goddamn three.

01:11:25
Sam
That's. Honestly, they actually should mail you a medal or something or a trophy or something. Because that's insane. That's an insane stat, especially for ilium.

01:11:37
Case
Three regularly cited on that show. Now, it is the Beowulf defense. They have cited it multiple times when trying to make a case for why a movie that most people would agree is a bad movie isn't technically bad. Yeah, so that's a great one. Yeah. So I hope everyone checks those out. And then if people want to get in touch with us, Sam, where can they find you, follow you, contact you?

01:12:09
Sam
Well, you can find me here, of course, every time we drop an episode, and sometimes I remember the discord exists. And so you can find me there. But if not, I will be very busy practicing my model face in a mirror repeatedly until I get it right and can achieve blue steel. And until then, if there's anything that I said or didn't say this episode that you wish I had said, you can let case know at.

01:12:41
Case
Well, you can find me on most platforms, except for Instagram, where I am still going by my high school aim screen name. And there I am going by quetzalcoatl five because I was pretentious in high school and didn't really care if people could spell it because I was dumb anyway. So, yeah, you can find me instagram there. You can find me also on our discord server, which I don't forget exists, unlike this movie today, you can find more episodes of things that I work on at Men of Steel, which is a great podcast that I co host with J. Mike Falsen about Superman and Superman adjacent stuff. You can find videos I work on the certain point of view YouTube channel, which is certain pov media.

01:13:24
Case
You can find video episodes of this show, minnow Steel, and you can find my Superman analog videos there. You can also find me on Ko fi if you want to chip in and support the production of all this stuff. That's coffee. That's Ko dash fi.com casen. And I've got one patron on that, which is Micah Macaw, who is a former guest of the show and just a rad dude, so want to give that a shout out, because he deserves a shout out for these goddamn things. Anyway. Yeah. So come back for more episodes. This is a fun show. I've been doing this for apparently eight years now. Jesus Christ. But, yeah. And until then, I was about to say, stay scruffy, but that's not the thing I'm supposed to say. Pass it on.

01:14:20
Case
All right, josue, let's go through our new comic day stack. We have a lot to review.

01:14:23
Sam
I know.

01:14:24
Case
Maybe we've gone too far. Let's see. Marvel, of course. DC. I got image. Dark horse.

01:14:31
Ben
Black mask.

01:14:32
Sam
Boom.

01:14:33
Case
Idw. Aftershock vault, of course. Mad cave oni. Valiant scout, magma behemoth. Wow, that's a lot. All we need now is a name for our show. We need a name for a show about reviewing comic books every week. Something clever, but not too clever.

01:14:53
Case
Like a pun. It's kind of cheesy.

01:14:55
Case
Yeah, something that seems funny at first but we might regret later on as an impulsive decision. A few dozen episodes in. Yeah, we'll think of something. Join Keith and O Sway for we have issues, a weekly show reviewing almost every new comic released each week, available on geek elite media and wherever you listen to your podcasts.

01:15:14
Sam
Scruffy nerd herders.

01:15:16
Case
It's nerf Herders. Jesus Christ.

01:15:20
Sam
Stay scruffy, Sam. Nerf herders.

01:15:24
Case
Cpov certainpov.com dot.