No conversation about All Star Superman would be complete without the two guests who are tied for most number of appearances on this show! So, to round out the 100th episode spectacular, Case and Jmike are joined by Duke and JD Martin to talk about The Animated Adaptation of All Star Superman!

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AI meeting summary:

●      The meeting discussed and celebrated the 100th episode of the Men of Steel podcast, focusing on the All-Star Superman comic and its animated movie adaptation. Key points included comparisons between the comic and movie, analysis of themes and adaptation choices, praise for voice cast performances, insights from Grant Morrison's commentary, and reflections on the impact of All-Star Superman on participants' appreciation of the character.

Notes:

●      🎉 Introduction and Celebration (00:00 - 02:00)

●      Discussion about the 100th episode of the Men of Steel podcast.

●      Introduction of co-hosts and guests: Duke and JD Martin.

●      Celebration of reaching the 100th episode milestone.

●      📚 All-Star Superman Comic Discussion (02:00 - 10:00)

●      Discussion about the All-Star Superman comic.

●      JD and Duke share their experiences with the comic.

●      JD mentions reading the comic in 2019 and its impact on his appreciation for Grant Morrison's work.

●      Duke talks about reading the comic in 2008 and his initial reactions.

●      🎬 All-Star Superman Animated Movie (10:00 - 20:00)

●      Discussion about the animated movie adaptation of All-Star Superman.

●      Comparison between the comic and the movie.

●      JD and Duke share their thoughts on the movie's adaptation and its differences from the comic.

●      Mention of Dwayne McDuffie's role in adapting the comic to the movie.

●      🎭 Voice Cast and Performances (20:00 - 30:00)

●      Discussion about the voice cast of the animated movie.

●      Mention of notable voice actors like Ed Asner, Anthony LaPaglia, Christina Hendricks, and others.

●      Praise for the performances of the voice actors in bringing the characters to life.

●      🔍 Themes and Adaptation Choices (30:00 - 45:00)

●      Analysis of the themes in All-Star Superman.

●      Discussion about the adaptation choices made in the movie.

●      Comparison of the movie's focus on Lex Luthor's redemption arc versus the comic's broader exploration of Superman's world.

●      Mention of specific scenes and elements that were included or omitted in the movie.

●      🗣️ Commentary and Insights (45:00 - 55:00)

●      Mention of the commentary track by Grant Morrison and Bruce Timm on the Blu-ray release.

●      Insights from the commentary about the adaptation process and Morrison's thoughts on the movie.

●      Discussion about Morrison's favorite superhero movies and their influence on All-Star Superman.

●      💡 Final Thoughts and Reflections (55:00 - End)

●      Participants share their final thoughts on All-Star Superman as a comic and a movie.

●      Discussion about the impact of All-Star Superman on their appreciation of the character.

●      Reflection on the themes of legacy, heroism, and redemption in the story.

●      Expression of gratitude for the opportunity to discuss and celebrate Superman.

TRANSCRIPTION

00:00
JD
Yeah. Also, the animation of parasite is horrifying.

00:04
Case
Oh, yeah.

00:05
JD
Like, there's that. The moment that really got me was like, later, the parasite, like, extends its own mouth. Like, just, like, digs its hands into its mouth and just extends it on its own. I was just like, oh, no, this is like. This is like Guillermo del Toro is somewhere having a field day watching this.

00:25
Case
Well, I saw someone compare it to, like, a studio ghibli kind of thing. Studio Ghibli body horror. Hey, everyone. And welcome back to our 100th episode, three part spectacular of the Men of Steel podcast. I'm case Aiken, and as always, I am joined by my co host, J. Mike Falsen.

01:07
Jmike
Dude, I can't believe we made it this far.

01:09
Case
I can't believe it either. We have crossed that threshold. This was supposed to be episode 100 right now, but our 99th episode ended up being two episodes.

01:17
Jmike
You know how that happened? It just happened.

01:19
Case
You know, we know how it happens because we have wonderful, eloquent people who like to talk about Superman material. And we have more wonderful, eloquent people to talk about Superman material today because we are talking about all star Superman, the animated movie. And for that conversation, we are joined once again by Duke.

01:36
Duke
Hey, everybody.

01:37
Case
And by JD Martin.

01:38
JD
I'm back talking McDuffie and Morrison.

01:41
Case
Yeah, no, people are definitely curious. Like, wait, you're talking about Morrison and you don't have JD? Yes, because here we are.

01:50
JD
According to case, the Morrison expert is back again.

01:54
Case
You did a whole season of your comic show on Morrison. I feel like you've earned it.

01:58
JD
Thank you. Dallas Taylor from Commerce collective might have words with you, but I already told him this, and I don't remember his.

02:05
Case
Reaction, but I'll just say he approves a Morrison expert. I mean, there are lots of Morrison experts.

02:09
JD
There are a lot of us out there. I honestly. I believe Alan is one of us as well.

02:13
Case
Also, June. June wrote multiple papers about Grant Morrison.

02:17
JD
So, yeah, there's. There's a guilt. We are the guild of Morrison experts. The. The GME.

02:23
Case
So we're still talking about all star Superman. Specifically, we wanted to talk about the animated movie. But also, this is our chance to talk with the two of you about the story in general and all of that. So my question to the table is, what was your experience of all star Superman as a story? Did you read the comic first? Did you read it as it was coming out? Did you see the movie first? I know J Mike's answer. So this is for JD and for two.

02:48
Duke
Yeah.

02:48
Jmike
You mean, you know my answer.

02:50
Case
Well, by I know your answer, I mean, you told it on the last episode, so, I mean, I could have said we're.

02:55
Jmike
I get your point.

02:57
Case
Hey, rewrite history between J Mac.

02:59
JD
Just because Alan isn't here doesn't mean we can't shame you.

03:02
Case
I know it's not shame. You just watch the movie first.

03:07
JD
No, it's called a shame case.

03:11
Case
All right?

03:12
JD
Let it consume you.

03:14
Case
Duke, what was your experience with all star Superman? Did you read it first? Did you watch the movie first? How did you come to this project?

03:20
Duke
I definitely read it first. When did I read it? It was 2008. Because by that point, there was a comic book store open near my college, so I was allowed to throw as much money as I can to collecting as many trades as possible. And so I got all star Superman on a whim because I kept hearing great things about it at that point. Like, okay, this is the most regarded Superman story of all time. It's the most beloved Superman story of all time. I'm like, all right, yeah, I'll get behind this. And I start reading it. I'm like, wait a minute, where are the Kents?

03:51
Duke
And so it took a while for me to acclimate to the fact that this is the earlier superann, the kind of bronze Age Sue Silver age kind of guy before the post crisis kind of hid and, you know, retrospectively changed it all. But, yeah, I definitely read the book first and fell in love with it more on every successive reread because there's so much you can, like, pull from it.

04:14
Case
Yeah, totally. I feel like you're kind of in the same bracket for me where approaching Superman as a comic property, coming in post crisis and really sort of experiencing all of that, like, and having that very particular reality that were in, as opposed to the much more choose your own adventure style of Silver Age Superman.

04:33
Duke
Yeah.

04:33
Case
So when did you actually end up watching the movie?

04:36
Duke
Definitely when the movie came out because there was so much behind it, especially with Dwayne McDuffie's passing and it's being, like, one of his last credit works. And I was just kind of, like, really excited to see it because, you know, it's one of the most interesting, you know, dissections of Superman. And I wanted to see how that kind of translates to animated form. And for the most part, I think it did a pretty good job, even if I have, like, a lot of gripes about it, which we'll probably get into later.

05:07
Case
But, you know, yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, like, the. The problem of this movie is that it is a 76 minutes adaptation of a twelve issue comic. It's hard to cram that much in. JD, how about you? What was your experience coming into the story? And then what was your experience? Well, go on.

05:24
JD
I actually did have to look this up to see when I acquired my copy of the comic, because I read the comic first, although I knew of the movie before that, because I feel like a lot, like, just like a lot of people of my generation, like, I grew up watching the direct to dvd DC animated movies, starting with Superman, Doomsday. So I was, like, paying attention to the movies that were coming out in that pipeline and that, and this was one of them. So I knew of the story, but the first time I actually experienced it and experienced it for what it was reading the comic back in August of 2019 when I acquired my copy of the trade. And I actually didn't watch the movie until I want to say, I believe it was like, early 2021.

06:22
JD
Just, just kind of like, I was, like saying, like, kind of like a fuck it. Like, just say, yeah, like, just what? Let's watch it. And it was because reading the comic, this was around the time I was getting more and more into Grant Morrison's work, and reading that solidified my love. I think. I think around this time, I had just finished reading Doom Patrol, and there were a couple others in there that I had been reading, but this comic was the story that really stood like, okay, Morrison is onto something here as far as what my taste in comics are, what my taste in the types of superhero stories I want to read are, and also to kind of just get into a mic, a molecular level, like the type of Superman stories I want to read.

07:15
JD
And then the movie came along in my life, and Dwayne McDuffie is the shit. There's no getting around that. I love that man to death. And yeah, I love the comic. It's maybe my favorite comic of all time, and I love the movie for what it is.

07:35
Case
Yeah, I think. I think that's all fair on this one. I mean, looking again, we're looking here at then what is supposed to be a slightly more mass market abridged story of this big epic Superman twelve part saga?

07:52
JD
Well, it's the same thing that happened that McDuffie did with another Morrison story, which we talked about on this podcast. With crisis on two earths adapting JLA Earth two, it's taking this mean, granted, these, like, these two, the two comics are very different in that Earth two is like, that comic is extremely dense and is really meant for, like, is not meant for new comics readers. It is, it is extremely, like, daunting work to get through. Whereas this comic was actually like, was really meant for anybody. Anybody can pick this up and understand who Superman is really like within the first three pages.

08:36
JD
But the, but the way McDuffie adapting Morrison is so interesting in that he was taking these more, these Morrison stories and like you said, streamline, like, streamline them for mass market audiences and, but the way he was adapting them with, like, when he adapting Earth two into Christ's son to Earth's was just to make it like a good. Like, make it the good and evil world. And good will triumph over evil in the end because that's what the Justice League does. The Justice League will succeed. And then here it's, well, no, we're not going to change the, we're not going to change what Morrison was going for. We're just going to simplify, simplify, and both ways work.

09:28
Case
I think it's two different problems is the situation, because Earth two is very dense, as you said, but there's actually not that much story.

09:35
Duke
No, Earth two is a very straightforward three act story.

09:39
Case
Right. But with lots of stuff going on in every panel.

09:42
JD
It's built to be a comic, like, because it is a commentary, as we, like we discussed on, over, on comics Quest when we talked about the comic. Like that is a, that is commentate, commenting on the nature of storytelling with superheroes in comics, whereas all sorts of Superman is just, this is just everything that Morrison loves about Superman synthesized into twelve issues. Twelve dense issues, you know, because you did have like two hour episodes on that comic.

10:19
Case
Yeah, it's Morrison. Every, every panel, it's a Morrison quitely joint. So everything has a lot going on.

10:25
Duke
It's so dense. It's so dense. Every frame is so dense.

10:28
Case
Yes, exactly.

10:30
JD
There's a reason why I haven't done a flex mental episode yet.

10:37
Case
But the difference there, though, is that McDuffie's challenge with adapting Earth two and why it's not really considered like a straightforward adaptation. It's, you know, there's clearly elements being drawn from it, but it's its own story is that he had to build it out like, he had to make it into a full story that sort of worked with all the ideas that they wanted to play and make it fit the runtime of like 70 ish minutes, whatever it was, where, you know, because again, like, the actual events are pretty quick. If you're just, if you're showing it on screen, like, you'll run, you'll burn through all that time really fast and, you know, you don't have moments to stop and, like, zoom in on this dense frank quitely.

11:15
JD
It would have been like, it would have been like a Justice League two parter for the show.

11:19
Case
Meanwhile here, you know, like, in addition to the density of all the frank whitely stuff that's going on, the amazing, like, panel layouts and interesting stuff in terms of how you're positioning everything and the crazy character designs and all of the Grant Morrison ideas and like, you know, capital I ideas that are going on here, you're just not gonna get that into 70 minutes.

11:41
JD
No, this easily could. Like, Alan on his, on the comics episode, did, like, mention how this should have at least been a two, like a two part movie. I argue that the only, like, if you really want to adapt this the way it should be adapted, this would have to be like a ten episode series or. Yes, a, for like a 15 episode series. It is, because just because there is just so much going on in the comic.

12:14
Duke
Yeah. The way it's paced, that it's more episodic because it's like, because trying to frame a three act story with Grant Morrison's all star, it's kind of difficult because it's like, the traditional writing idiom is like, okay, in your first act, you have to set up the main conflict, the stakes, and what the character's journey is. And it's like, I guess we gotta get to the trials quicker in act one. That way, acts two and three could be paying off the, you know, building up the trials and setting them up and paying them off. But, like, in a movie sense, like, you also have to kind of consider, like, does this work for a cinematic, you know, language? Like did. Because we don't see the infinite, the infant universe at all.

12:59
Duke
And no, because there's no way you can play off that one because that's just grant Morrison's continuity playing off itself. And in the traditional, like, Mobius strip.

13:09
Case
Yeah, I mean, it's impressive how much they were able to squeeze into this 70 minutes runtime, but you do lose some stuff. You lose Jimmy Olsen becoming the head of project and becoming doomsday to stop a black kryptonite poison.

13:25
JD
Honestly, I will say if I had to change anything about this movie, it would be that I would bring that back.

13:30
Duke
Yes.

13:31
Case
Yeah. This movie doesn't spend as much time with Jimmy Olsen, and that's kind of a bummer. Yeah.

13:35
JD
Especially when you have an actor like Matthew Gray Gubler. Yes. Which I feel like that's a great segue into. Let's talk about the cast for this movie. I love talking about cast because I'm just, I'm fascinated by the alchemy of casting.

13:47
Case
Sure. We've got some, like, fucking winners in.

13:51
Duke
Oh, yeah.

13:51
Case
We've got Ed Asner as fucking Perry White.

13:53
JD
Yes. Honestly. Ed Asner. Best Perry White. This is, this is best Perry White.

13:58
Duke
I keep forgetting.

13:59
Case
I'm inclined to believe he hasn't voiced.

14:01
Duke
Perry White, but he voiced j. Jonah Jameson. It's Spider man. Was it spiderman ts that he voiced Perry White? I'm sorry. J. Jonah Jameson.

14:09
JD
That.

14:10
Case
That honestly makes very well might have been. I'm double checking.

14:12
JD
Yeah, I mean, the thing is, Ed Asner just voicing crotchety men is one of my favorite. Like, I mean, the ultimate is, of course, Carl and up. He's. He's absolutely incredible in that movie. So, yeah, Ed Asner is like, the very small amount he gets in here, but him just ripping luthor apart is so good. It's so sweet.

14:38
Case
Yeah. To confirm, it was the nineties Spider man, the animated series.

14:41
Duke
There you go. He's good at newspaper men.

14:44
JD
I need to rewatch that show. Cause I loved it as a kid. Like, my favorite was, were the daredevil episodes when Daredevil shows up and Matt Murdock has to represent. Has to represent Peter Parker in court. God, I love that show.

14:58
Duke
Oh, yeah. I rewatched it recently. I'm like, wow, this still holds up.

15:00
Case
Yeah, it made me, like, the spot for fucking.

15:03
Duke
Yeah.

15:03
JD
God, I'm so excited for the spot to be in across the spider verse and Jason Schwartzman as the spot, I said. And I was like, Patrick Williams is.

15:13
Case
So happy right now, but moving on to other characters. Cause ad Destner, you know, despite the fact that, yes. Perfect Perry White. Oh, my God. How is he not just like everyone, you know, he was born to say great Caesar's ghost. Right, exactly.

15:27
JD
Also, like, Ed Asner would be a great live action Perry White as well. Just, just saying. I'm just saying. Warner Brothers, get your act together. Give us that Batgirl movie were supposed to have. And also cast Ed Asner as Perry White retroactively.

15:43
Duke
Time machine.

15:46
JD
No, just, you just you know, new continuity.

15:51
Case
What if every time someone wanted to make a movie and instead of doing, like, the Carrie Fisher kind of, like, zombie thing, they just like. They're like, oh, this is the perfect casting. And then they just show the grave. That's dark. Okay, moving on. Anthony LaPaglia as Lex Luthor is fucking great.

16:14
Duke
He steals the movie.

16:16
Case
Yeah, it is like, look, obviously, Clancy Brown is my go to Lex Luthor, my favorite Lex Luthor of all time. But this is a pretty good Lex Luthor.

16:26
JD
Yeah, yeah, actually. So I. So for the listeners at home, I own this movie on Blu ray. And the Blu Ray comes with a beautiful thing. That is a Bruce Tim Grant Morrison commentary track. And on that track, Bruce Timm did mention Morrison mentions how much they love the animated series that Bruce Timm produced in the nineties, which is, honestly, I would say, outside of all star Superman, the best Superman thing of all time. And Rusim mentions them throwing around the idea of bringing back those actors, bringing back Tim Daley and Dana Delany and Clancy Brown. But they were like, no, it. Like, once they got the animation back, they were like, it's not quite. It's not quite right. Like, those actors don't quite fit the way we're telling the story and the way we're animating it, which I. And which I totally understand.

17:23
JD
So them, like, recasting it, but they got great choices, like, Christina Hendricks as Lois Lane, because they were also like, ding. Delaney's great. There's no replacing Danny Delaney. But they wanted to play her, like, slightly younger. So Christina Hendrix was the choice they decided to go with instead.

17:40
Duke
Yeah, yeah.

17:40
Case
And I was fine with Christina Hendrix as Lois. Like, this is one where it didn't take me out of the moment. Like, you know, I think the only actor who I flat out was like, I know that is, was Ed Asner. Like, when he shows, like, I mean, obviously when you're, like, listening for the voices, you're like, okay, who is this person? Like. But whereas when we watched Superman Doomsday, there were multiple moments where it was just like, just stop.

18:01
Duke
Yeah.

18:02
JD
Also, like, with that movie, I gotta say, rest in peace, Anne Heche. She was such a great Lois lane.

18:08
Case
Yeah, that was really awkward that were like, don't love her performance. And then the episode dropped the week after she passed away.

18:14
JD
Yeah, I'm on. Here's the thing I will say retroactively. I think she's a great Lois Lane. And I still tear up every time she starts breaking down in front of Martha, talking about how much she loved Clark. So there you go.

18:30
Case
Yeah, it was a good scene. It was just like. Yeah, yeah.

18:34
JD
Honestly, also, I also say that movie, I cried, but it's not that great.

18:39
Duke
No, it's. It's Rush. Like, we talk about, like, how, like, this movie had, like, turn everything out for 70 minutes. The Superman movie. It was like, an average series movie. Like, they might make pepper jokes about it.

18:53
JD
It also, I mean, also, that was the. That was the very. That was their very first foray into, like, the market of let's do direct to DVD movies. But they're PG 13. Yeah. Like, we're going for, like, a, like, a higher age bracket than the previous stuff we made because, of course they made. They were making direct DVD movies, but they were all Batman movies, but that.

19:17
Case
Was the first time they were brainiac attacks.

19:18
JD
Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry. We cannot forget brainiac attacks. I used to have that.

19:23
Case
I wish I could, too.

19:25
Duke
Me, too.

19:26
JD
I used to have it on DVD.

19:29
Case
I was still kicking myself that. I was just like, oh, I haven't seen this one yet. I might as well put it one night.

19:33
Duke
I remember it was on Cartoon Network, and it's like, oh, I didn't see this episode of Superman's yet. Why does Luthor sound weird? He doesn't sound like a greek dude anymore.

19:41
JD
Was it power's booth was either brainiac or Luthor Lutheran? I can't remember. It was Luthor.

19:47
Duke
Yeah. Lance Hendrickson was brainiac, I think.

19:51
JD
Okay. Actually, Lance Henriksen as brainiac is really good casting.

19:54
Case
Honestly, neither of those are bad choices for casting. It was just weird that they were using the TA models and also the tape. Like, the deliveries were a little.

20:03
Duke
Yeah.

20:03
Case
For it. Like, if both of them had been in super friends, totally fine.

20:09
Duke
Yeah, Lex was a little bit more bumbling in that movie, and it's like, what the heck's going on, white? Where's my smooth greek criminal now?

20:17
JD
Okay, I'm sorry. Now I want a news. I want a new super friend show.

20:20
Duke
Oh. I mean, we need. We didn't make a sequel to Justice League action. That was, oh, such a good show, right?

20:29
Jmike
That was a fun little show.

20:31
Duke
It was so good. It was like, oh, wow, you guys are really embracing the bronze age here with this show. What are you gonna do next? Cancel? Because Cartoon Network just wants to make tea times go because it makes, like, takes, like, what, $2 to make an episode?

20:46
JD
Hey, you know what? Teen titans go is good.

20:48
Jmike
It's pretty funny.

20:49
JD
That's my hot take for the episode. Get back to the movie. James Denton as Superman is, was the casting. I was really unsure of when I first read that. But watching the movie, he's great. He's perfect. He's perfect.

21:04
Case
I think he does fine. But I will say that Superman in this is, he has the same kind of voice that the comic Superman does. But I, the comic, the all star Superman, the comic kind of style. But I don't know, there is an element, and I'm really not trying to compare him to any of the T's or the JLU or anything like that. Superman, I don't know, it just, it requires a certain amount of warmth that I didn't quite get to stick some of those lines.

21:33
Duke
He was soft spoken enough to sell the Frank quietly Superman, but like, yeah.

21:38
JD
Yeah, I understand that. I do love, like, Alan mentioning the great additional, that he wishes in the comic. That I also wish was in the comic is that moment where Luthor says, if you had his powers, what would you do? And Clark just says, I'd help people. Like that. That one, that delivery of that one line that, for me, completely sold. Denton as Clark Slash Superman.

22:05
Case
Yeah. And actually, I would say that his Clark is better than his Superman. And this is emphasized by that scene is such, like, because it's such, because that scene is so almost exactly taken from the comic and not compressed in any real way. Like, it's, it becomes a much bigger part of this movie. And there's a reason why that scene with Luthor, like, the prison scene with Luthor is so iconic just in general. But it's magnified by this, by the animated movie.

22:32
JD
Yeah. Also, the animation of parasite is horrifying. There's that, the moment that really got me was like, later, the parasite, like, extends its own mouth. Like, just, like, digs its hands into its mouth and just extends it on its own. I was just like, oh, no, this is like Guillermo del Toro is somewhere having a field day watching this.

22:57
Case
Well, I saw someone compare it to, like, a studio Ghibli kind of thing. Studio ghibli body horror.

23:03
JD
Okay. Yeah, yeah, I'm good. I just, I'm just like, I honestly, I'm like, I'm picturing Del Toro just like, sitting in his, like, in his office, like, in his, like, giant toy box house and just like, sitting there watching this and going, why can't I do that? I want the money to do that.

23:23
Duke
And I'll be like, right next to him going, why aren't you directing a Superman movie? Come on, dude.

23:29
JD
Del Toro would kill it on a Superman movie, honestly.

23:32
Case
Especially if he did, like, a bizarro movie that was, like, the cut bizarro chapters from this.

23:36
JD
Yes.

23:37
Case
That would be absolutely. Oh, man. Give bizarre.

23:43
JD
Give Del Toro, like, $40 million and just go make that 40 minutes movie.

23:48
Duke
We have this guy who's really great with genre and monster things, and, like, we can't give him Superman or Etrigan. Like, what's going on here?

23:55
JD
I'm still bummed that we're not getting the Justice League dark movie from him because him directing, like, zatanna and Swamp thing and Constantine and Deadman and Etrigan.

24:05
Duke
Etrigan. Yeah. The hot monsters, which is the swamp thingy. Nitrogen.

24:09
Case
Yeah.

24:09
JD
The hot monsters led by Zatanna.

24:11
Duke
And zatan.

24:12
Case
Yeah. Before we move on to getting into the weeds of this movie, I do want to, like, just round out a couple other, like, interesting actor choices that are.

24:22
JD
Because I have one.

24:23
Case
Yeah. Because there's some fun ones. Linda Cardellini. That was the one. Yeah.

24:27
JD
As.

24:27
Case
No.

24:28
JD
Sophia.

24:28
Duke
Oh, yeah.

24:31
JD
I was like, she is given maybe at most, maybe, like, six or seven lines in this movie, but she nails all of them with just absolute I don't want to fucking be here energy.

24:42
Duke
Yeah.

24:43
JD
Yep. I.

24:45
Duke
She's so deeply freaking good.

24:47
JD
Yes.

24:48
Case
And she's very underrated just in general as an actress. Like, yeah, she's part of that freaks and Greeks crew that's, like, Seth Rogen and, like, Jason Seagal and, like, in fact, used to be, like, in a serious relationship with Jason Seagal and, like.

24:59
JD
Yeah, but, like, she's like, of course she's Velma. She's fucking Velma. She kills it as Velma in not one, but two movies, but, like, she returned to Scooby Doo and played the character of hot dog water in my favorite version of Scooby Doo mystery Incorporated. And, like, got it confirmed that Velma is queer and is in a relationship with. With that character. Like, I love it. And then, like, her one scene in a simple favor. She's incredible. She's just, like, this chain smoking, tattooed artist that I'm like, why aren't you in every movie? Please be in every movie.

25:33
Duke
Yeah. She'd make a great Lois Lane from.

25:35
Case
Her one line in dead man on campus.

25:38
Duke
Like, I'm just saying. I'm just saying she'd make a great Lois Lane.

25:41
Case
Yeah.

25:42
JD
Honestly. Yeah. I'm. I'm still with CJ on Parker Posey.

25:48
Duke
Oh, yeah.

25:48
JD
Have been Lois Lane.

25:49
Duke
Oh, absolutely.

25:51
JD
Also, especially I recently just rewatched, for the umpteenth time, scream three. And honestly, both her and Courteney Cox, great choices for Lois. Especially, like, especially that late nineties, early two thousands. Like, either of them could have been a great live action Lois Lane. But, like, I honestly, I'm kind of bummed because I love Henry Cavill as Superman. I like the idea and I just, you know, put him, give him a better, give him a good script and a director who understands the material. I just, I couldn't see either of them with him. It just, I don't know. It doesn't like.

26:25
Case
Yeah, well, and at this point, all of these actresses that we're talking about, you kind of need to be doing an older Superman story anyway.

26:31
JD
Yeah.

26:32
Case
So Brandon Ronini probably could get away with being.

26:36
Duke
Yeah.

26:36
Case
Yeah. Brandon Roth would be Brandon Raffi Parker.

26:38
Duke
Posey had a lot of chemistry and that, like, one scene is shared together. I'm just saying.

26:43
JD
Yeah, so let them. So, okay, here we go. We got, we got our del Toro Superman movie. Brenda Routh Parker Posey. Let Doro go off and, yeah, it will make, fuck it.

26:55
Case
Set it on earth, too, and just have it be explicitly a little bit older timeline. And then you could have power girl in there. You can have infinity, Inc. Oh, I'm.

27:03
JD
Making myself, I'm making us so sad by all these amazing ideas we're having.

27:10
Case
Yeah, this is a brainstorming session. Other great actors in this just stay on actors because, like. Yeah. Linda, Carolina. Great.

27:18
JD
We got John DiMaggio and.

27:20
Case
Yeah, that's exactly what I was about.

27:22
JD
And Steve Bloom.

27:24
Case
Yes.

27:24
JD
As Samson and Atlas. And, like, these two actors are so good at playing the bro iest of bros. And, like, Allen put it best and he's like, these guys were just like, what you want, bro? Like, we're gonna still like, bro. Like, before the term Chad existed, they were the Chad's of chads.

27:40
Duke
They are the bill and Ted of strongman right there.

27:44
JD
Right. No, don't you dare to. Don't you dare besmirch the names of Bill and Ted. Of Theodore Logan, Esquire, and Bill Preston. Don't you dare do that. Ted Theodore Logan. I had to get the names right.

27:59
Duke
Like, they should have just redone. Like, I know they did the Superman and doomsday thing on the telephone booth for that one cover, but I'm like, just do Samson and Atlas. They have a time machine. I don't think they know how to spell their names either. It's perfect.

28:14
JD
Wait, hold up. Now I'm imagining a world where a version of this where Keanu and Alex Winter were voicing these characters. I really wish that had happened. They can wear the Steve Blum, love John DiMaggio, Keanu. Now, Alex would have been really great.

28:28
Duke
Yeah, they could. They could wear the muscle suits from the third movie, too.

28:34
Jmike
Oh, my.

28:35
JD
No, they were just playing sand Stallis. Yeah, that's actually what it was. That's all they were doing.

28:39
Case
Yeah. And I'm glad that scene didn't get that. That scene did not get cut because that easily could have been another one where you just kind of omit it. You just do, you know, Lois, like, has powers for a minute and then, like, move on to the next thing.

28:50
JD
It was important to have that, though, because they are like, they're the ones who are there to have the. The time, like the top, like, reinforce the. The theme of time throughout this story because time is such a big part of the comic. It's like McDuffie. McDuffie understands that. Like, that being such a big part, you can't cut that out of the movie. So you want to make sure to, if you're gonna cut out Bizarro, like, there should be, like, you should at least keep all the other pieces that reinforce theme of time and how much we have left and what our legacy and what we're leaving as our legacy. Like, keep as much of that as possible. So it's important to have Samson Atlas still there to reinforce that theme. And like, showing. Showing Superman the.

29:40
JD
The newspaper and ha, and the ultra sphinx was there to. Because Samson Atlas are the bro. Are bros who are. Who don't understand being cool.

29:53
Duke
Yeah. Plus, it's.

29:54
JD
They think they're cool. They're not.

29:55
Duke
They also bring up the fact that, like, you know, Superman has to commit his twelve labor before he dies. So it's like you have that kind of like, dramatic question, like hanging over the story. Like, will Superman be able to complete these, you know, these twelve labors? Which I don't think they really number the labors in this movie.

30:11
JD
No, the movie, they didn't.

30:12
Case
They just don't.

30:13
JD
They just say. They just. I honestly, I think was, I believe was Samson who mentioned it. He just said, all he says is, but, like, legend tells that before you died, you create you. You. You could like, enacted like the greatest feats of your career right before you died.

30:31
Case
Yeah, they over. They overshoot that a little bit. Or like, they. It exists as a concept in here, but it's not really the thrust of this all, like, whereas, you know, the comic is structured as twelve issues so that you can use this referring thing of like, yeah, it's twelve labors and whatnot. JD, I think you brought up a really good point that this movie also doesn't spend as much time on time. You know, one of the big things when looking at it in retrospect, the comic has lots of time travel elements. There's so many things going on in there. You know, like they, another thing they cut out is the cronivore. Like the whole, like that whole experience there is like. Yeah, that's the, that's time as a literal killer.

31:10
Duke
Yeah, yeah, that's.

31:12
Case
And you have to keep those elements in here to keep some of the same thematic points, but you don't have time to reinforce.

31:18
Duke
That's one of the, that's one of the glaring omissions. Just that, you know, the funeral in Smallville is one of the reasons why it's like, this movie doesn't fare well to me because it's like funeral in Smallville basically sets up for me a lot of what like to this Clark is as a person, like who he was, who he is going to be and what he will like, last onto the world. Like, if anything, they could have cut out the kryptonian stuff with barrel and lilo instead of that.

31:48
JD
Yeah, I can agree with that. And you're right with having a superboy saying I can, like, I can save him. I can save everyone. And then cutting later in the story to a Superman who is just like I am on death's door and not having the mentality of I can save everyone. It's just I'm going to save as many as I can. Yeah, I'm going to do my, like he's grown into himself enough to understand that he can't do everything, but he can do more. He can do more than others. So he's going to use what he has to do as much as he can.

32:30
Duke
Yeah. And to me, it's like, it's so, it's more instrumental because, you know, like the final image, of course, is him and the sun. And like, you know, the payoff is going to be him being the golden Superman that shows up in that story where he's like, which one of my descents are you? And he's like, huh, that's funny because I'm you.

32:52
Case
Yeah.

32:52
Duke
Better now.

32:53
Case
Yeah. Like, that was the thing that June brought up last time, where the ending of this comic is actually rather melancholy. If you do not know about this broader, like, Superman meta story that Morrison has in their mind, you know, that Superman eventually will be reunited with Lois in the 853rd century and that everything is going to be great and that Kyle Raynor is going to have a really bad headache trying to, and.

33:16
JD
Yeah, you know, yeah. If you didn't go back, if you didn't, like years and years before JLA 1 million.

33:23
Case
Right. Because Morrison can just have fun with, like, here's all the crazy ideas I'm throwing out there. And, you know, the resolution of this story they published, what, six years before?

33:31
JD
Yeah, yeah, something like that. And actually, I want to say something on when y'all were talking about the ending of the comic and also the ending of the movie as well. How, like, the im, like the image of Clark in, like, in the sun and put like he, like, he is a farmer. Like, like Alan mentioned, like, pointed out he's a farmer's kid. Like, he is. So he understands that, yes, he can do all these things, but he has to put in the work. Morrison did confirm, like, their inspiration for that image was like, images from, like, of, like, communist images of, like, how did, how they depicted laborers in their propaganda. And also, and also directly William Blake's rational man piece as well. The rational man.

34:29
Case
Yeah. This is why every time I look at that picture of Superman, I think he should be wearing overalls.

34:33
JD
Yeah.

34:34
Case
Yes.

34:34
JD
Yes.

34:35
Duke
I thought he did wear overalls. So, like, where did he put on the overalls? These are sun overalls. Like, what's going on? Right?

34:41
JD
Yeah. Okay.

34:42
Case
Yes.

34:43
JD
Cuz, cuz when you mention on the last episode, I was like, wait, is he not wearing overalls in that?

34:49
Case
No, he's just wearing his regular suit. He just looks like he should be wearing overalls. So we all mentally, in our head, put him in overalls.

34:57
JD
Put Clark in over, like, look, Henry Cavill. I'm sorry. Please wear overalls more is what we're saying.

35:02
Duke
Henry Cavill. Wear less sleeves.

35:04
JD
Yes, please.

35:05
Case
All of these are things we can agree with. Right?

35:07
Duke
See, like I said, overalls and little thing in his mouth, like on the straw.

35:14
Case
Pick like a wheat.

35:18
Duke
I'm like, okay, yeah, he's getting, wait, hold on. No, he's just wearing his costume.

35:22
JD
I'm sorry. I was spacing out when were talking about Henry Cavill with less shirt. See, I spaced out.

35:27
Duke
This is why they need to have me design Superman costumes.

35:29
JD
From now on, just let us do it. We're the committee.

35:34
Case
What are you doing? Superman just looks like a farmer.

35:36
JD
I'm making all the committees today.

35:38
Duke
Yeah, let's, let's write a Superman 3000 document for DC Comics. And, you know, hopefully we'll make this comic happen and, you know, not get it sabotaged.

35:49
Case
What is your elevator pitch? Sexy farmer. Superman.

35:53
Duke
I always said, I always said, superman's not your dad. Superman is daddy. And that's what I believe in. Sexy daddy.

35:59
JD
Superman is back, baby.

36:01
Case
Sexy daddy Superman, baby.

36:02
Duke
Yeah. Kennedy Johnson is doing that, so.

36:07
JD
Oh, Brandon Routh, we want you back, man. For the record, we really want you back.

36:11
Duke
For the record, I've been saying Superman, his daddy said before, dumb. So I was, it was me. I did it.

36:17
Case
Oh, yeah.

36:17
JD
Yeah. I will give credit where credit is due, but I feel like Superman and the authority, that episode, like, duke started it. We cemented it with that episode, though.

36:30
Case
Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, all of a sudden it was just like, yep. Sexy daddy Superman. That's, that's the way to go. There's a, there's a reason why the meta text in the file, if you go, like, download it and then, like, look for the actual description, is just sexy daddy Superman.

36:42
JD
Yeah. And of course, the art. The art for that episode is the panel where he is shirtless, sweating with a towel around.

36:50
Jmike
Oh, yeah.

36:51
Case
On purpose. Yeah. So this episode has just turned into us thirsting about Morrison's depictions of Superman.

36:58
Jmike
That was an awesome suit for that book.

37:00
Case
That was a great suit. Yeah. Most of Superman's costumes have been pretty good. Like, I think the worst, you could say, are, like, the weird, fitting stitched ones from certain live action adaptations, like the serial. Yeah, yeah, whatever.

37:14
JD
But you know what? I still love them. And electric blue Superman looking at you. Yeah, we love you.

37:20
Case
We love you all for an electric blue Superman. All right, let's actually try to focus a little bit on the actual thing that we're talking about, which is all star Superman, the property and the movie as a whole. So one thing that occurred to me, well, rather it was brought up and that in the last time when were talking about it as a thing that I kind of just assumed because I think the comic more sort of backfilled this and it also kind of just fits Morrison's general ethos of superpowers, can lead you to good. In my head, the revelation that Luthor has in this, which I think is more pr, it's more pronounced ultimately in this.

38:00
Case
But in retrospect, I had thought that his, he had the same basic turn in the comic of once everything clicks, it's like, oh, shit, we need to do better. And that's there, but it's much more so here. And it occurred to me between recording the last one and this where I'm like, wait, I've seen Frank Whitely draw that same basic thing, though. And the reason why is because in the authority, there was the issue where the evil version of the doctor, eventually his powers caught up to him. And he was like, oh, yeah, I want to be good because powers, like, you know, it fills him with empathy and so forth. And I'm like, wait a second. It is definitely still a Morrison thing.

38:37
Case
And Morrison, it was helping out Mark Millar a lot on the writing duties on that one because Mark Millar had a hard time, like, living up to his deadlines.

38:45
JD
Yeah. Also, like, I will say probably any, the ultimates. Like, I don't want to be disparaging too much on this podcast, but the ultimates is a comic that I'm not a fan of, but any good out of that comic, I credit to Morrison because Morrison credits themselves for that as well.

39:04
Case
Sorry, did I say the ultimates? I meant the authority, if.

39:05
JD
No, you said, you know, you said the authority, but they worked on both.

39:09
Case
Yeah, yeah. Millar went off of the authority to do the ultimates. Yeah, yeah. So I'm just every, I'm a little curious if, like, you know, because they were all, like, exchanging ideas back in the day, like, the Superman 2000 pitch. Yeah. Was, you know, Morrison and Millar and Wade and Tom Pear. Yeah, Tom pair, like, following me.

39:26
Duke
Let's be nice. Hi, Tom.

39:30
Case
But, you know, they all were just, like, exchanging ideas. You can see, like, this cross pollination going through it all. And in fact, I was watching an interview of Morrison and Wade talking about, like, a chance encounter that helped, like, drive Superman, like, all star super.

39:46
JD
I know what you're talking about. You're talking about the Comic Con experience.

39:48
Case
Yeah, exactly.

39:50
JD
Okay, you guys keep talking. I'm gonna go grab my copy of super gods where I'm going to read the part of that book where that happened because he met. Because they mentioned that in the book.

39:59
Case
Yeah. The point is that nothing is created in a vacuum. So, like, Morrison is interacting as much with everyone else. But it was just interesting for me to realize that, like, the same basic facial expression of supervillain, like, holding their face, being like, what the fuck have I done? Oh, my God.

40:13
Duke
And it makes sense, too, because it's like, you know, when the Superman 2000 pitch you, like, fell through. Thanks, Eddie Braganza, you fucking heck. They basically took their ideas separately and, you know, went on to do other things. So I can see Grant Morrison going like, okay, I like this idea, and I like this idea. I like this idea, and I really want to do this idea with Solaris, so I'm just going to make my own thing eventually. And then, you know, feel like the history behind, like, final was like, Jim Lee wanted to do something. And wasn't grant approached to do the Jim Lee Superman book before Brian Azarello?

40:47
Case
Oh, I don't know about that necessarily. Yeah. Like, yeah, there was this whole moment of Jim Lee, like, doing iconic takes on characters, which, you know, is ultimately why all star Batman and Robin, the boy wonder was him with Frank Miller.

41:02
Duke
Well, it was like, DC's, like, DC's, like, kind of partnership with Jim Lee was like, Jim Lee wants to do a Batman book and a Superman book. And so I think hush came out of the Batman one. And with Superman, it was originally going to be Grant Morrison, and then it became Forza Mario. So we could have had an all.

41:20
Case
Star Superman by Jim Lee, which, you.

41:24
Duke
Know, it feels weird.

41:26
Case
It feels a little weird, but, like, would have been fine.

41:29
Duke
It would look cool. It's like, aesthetically, Frank leans better towards what the retro pop version Grant Morrison was leaning towards in the Bronze Age depictions of these characters.

41:39
Case
Oh, yeah, no, Frank Whiteley and Morrison as collaborators are, like, two pieces of odd. It makes a lot of sense.

41:45
Jmike
I would love to have a Superman.

41:47
Case
Batman all star series, like a world's finest. Well, we're kind of getting that right now with world's finest.

41:53
JD
And Mark Wade is writing it.

41:54
Case
Yeah, yeah. With Dan Laura. Like, it's actually so good.

41:57
JD
And. And the doom patrol shows up.

42:00
Case
Yeah, yeah. It's pretty close to being an all star.

42:03
JD
It's basically. It's basically exactly what I wanted in a comic.

42:06
Duke
It's. It's Mark Wade coming back after so long and being like, hey, I still got it.

42:10
JD
Yeah. God.

42:11
Case
Like, the Robin issue, when. When he's traveled back in time and joins the circus is like, oh, right, I forgot how fucking good Robin stories can be.

42:18
Duke
Like, yeah, Mark, wait.

42:22
JD
Mark, wait. Is so good.

42:23
Duke
I enjoyed it, too, because, like, Superman had his shirt off for most that issue. And I'm like, also true.

42:28
Case
Yes. And. And, like, all the women were, like, on him, like, oh, yeah. Like. Like a bees to honey. Like, it was amazing.

42:38
JD
And guess what? I'm there with them. Yeah, I'm there with them.

42:42
Case
So, JD, you were pulling a quote from super God.

42:44
JD
I do. I have this section. This is from Grant Morrison's book, super Gods. I believe it's the last chapter. Star legend, superhero, super God. And so this comes right after, this is actually the section where Morrison does mention the Superman 2000 pitch, which is also originally called Superman now. And was, and that was also the original title for the comic. So like, that had been rejected and Morrison was now kind of stuck with like, what they were going to do. So, quote, stuck with the problem. I found myself chewing it over with my JLA editor, Dan Raspler, at one in the morning, in an airless hotel room overlooking the naval yards of San Diego harbor. We were there for 1990 Nine's comic con.

43:25
JD
To clear our heads, went downstairs and crossed the street, an oddly landscaped liminal zone between the rail tracks and the city. We were deep in discussion, debating earnestly the merits and demerits of a married Superman. We both spotted a couple of men crossing the tracks into town. One was an ordinary looking bearded dude, at first sight, like any of a hundred thousand comics fans, but the other was Superman. He was dressed in a perfectly tailored red, blue and yellow costume. His hair was slicked back with a kiss curl. And unlike the often weedy or punchy Superman who paraded through the conventionals, he was trim, buff and handsome. He was the most convincing Superman I've ever seen, looking somewhat like a cross between Christopher Reeve and the actor Billy Zane. I knew a visitation when I saw one.

44:07
JD
Racing to intercept the pair, Dan and I explained who were, what were doing, and asked Superman with quotes there if he wouldn't mind answering a few questions. He didn't, and sat on a concrete baller with one knee to his chest shield, completely relaxed. It occurred to me that this was exactly how Superman would sit. A man who was invulnerable to all harm would be always relaxed and at ease. Hed have no need for the kind of physically aggressive posture superheroes tended to go in for. I suddenly began to understand Superman in a new way. We asked questions, how do you feel about Lois? What about Batman? And received answers in the voice and Persona of Superman. I dont think Lois will ever really understand me or why I do what I do. Or Batman sees only the darkness in peoples hearts.

44:49
JD
I wish he could see the best. That seemed utterly convincing. The whole encounter lasted an hour and a half. Then he left graciously and on foot. I'm sad to say. Dan and I stared at each other in the fuzzy sodium glare of the street lamps, then quietly returned to our rooms, inflamed. I stayed awake the whole night writing about Superman until the fuming August sun rose above the warships, the hangars, and the Pacific. I was now certain we could keep the marriage to Lois and simply make it work to our advantage.

45:13
Case
See, the only thing that I find wild about that is that. But I watched the interview, and both Mark Wade was also being cut to and was also part of telling that story. And while I could imagine Mark Wade had just heard the story enough times that he could tell it, I thought he said he was there, so I don't. It wasn't wild, because that is the story. That's exactly it. I'm so comfortable and whatnot.

45:35
Duke
Was there a picture of them with Mark Wade? Because I remember seeing a picture online with Grant Morrison, a Superman cosplayer, and Mark Wade, who's grinning ear to earth.

45:45
JD
It probably happened. I don't know if it was the same. It could have also been the same. The same person just taken later.

45:51
Case
Yeah.

45:51
JD
Yeah, they could have just found it.

45:54
Case
Yeah.

45:54
JD
Everything just could just, like, happen years later. It's like Morrison, Louise, like, it's you.

45:58
Duke
It's you.

46:00
Case
You're Superman.

46:02
JD
You're Superman.

46:03
Duke
It's gotta be wild to have, like, a famous comic book writer at the time. Like, go, can I talk to you?

46:08
JD
Not only. Not only that, but this is 1999. This is like Grant Morrison at the peak of their powers. Like they're almost off to, like. Because like within a year, they're gonna leave DC and go and write X Men. So they're still writing JLA and doing all these things. And it's. It's like you get this ball, so you get this bald scotsman just going, hi, I'm Grant Morrison. I need to talk to you. Like. Like, of course you're gonna. Of course you'd be like, yes, I'm Superman.

46:38
Case
Right?

46:40
JD
You are whoever Morrison tells you are.

46:43
Case
Yeah. That's gotta be just a wild experience in general.

46:45
JD
Yeah. That's now the mantra of the guild of Morrison experts. You are who Morrison says you are.

46:51
Duke
Unless your buddy Baker.

46:53
Case
So, segueing back to also very tricky segment back to the movie. I see you, J Mike. So of this table, you are the only one who came in movie first. But from your standpoint, coming in from the movie, and as we've talked about, the events of the movie are all pretty one to one for things that happen in the comics, they just overshoot. Was there anything that caught you by surprise, structurally out, you know, like, where it's like, oh, I'm surprised this thing occurred here. I would have thought that if they were gonna do this, it would have been at a different spot, or. I didn't expect. I didn't expect a gap period. Like, what was your surprise going from movie to comic that there was.

47:32
Jmike
So much stuff I had never seen. I read.

47:37
JD
We read.

47:38
Jmike
I read. I finally read the comic for our recording, our six hour recording that we did, and I was like, oh, good. Cool. Oh, there's a time monster. Okay. There's the whole Jimmy Olsen subplot. Okay. There is a bizarro underversed subplot. It's like, holy crap, there's so much stuff here. Yeah. And I understand why they had to condense it. It's still, like, you know, a good movie, but, like, there's just so much missing from the movie. I'm like, oh, man, I wonder how, like, now you kind of wonder, like, I wonder how that will actually look and play out in the movie if they had done it. I really like kryptonite.

48:23
JD
I do. I do believe that. Like, I think the one thing that I am okay with not being here just for the sheer complexity of it is bizarre. Is bizarre. Yeah. Just the complexity of the language, of how that's written is, like, that would be so difficult, not only for the act, not just for the actors performing it, but also as a viewer listening to that. And I'm like, it would. It would. Like, it would screw with my brain too much. So I understand that getting cut out, but I do wish we did have the going back in time, defeating the cronivore.

49:04
Case
Yeah.

49:04
JD
And I wish we had the Jimmy Olsen bit. I wish we had. I wish we had the issue ten never ending, which, you know, just a day in the life of Superman. I wish we had that. Of just like, Superman. Like, he say that defeats a giant robot and helps a. Helps a ward of children. Like, helps a children's ward in a hospital and. Yeah, when actually, when Alan and June were talking about, like, rereading it every few years, I forgot. I had realized, like, oh, wait, I haven't reread it in a long time, and I was gonna reread it for this, and I forgot to. So, like, last night, I actually watched. I watched the movie twice back to back. I watched it on its own, and then I watched it right after with the Tim Morrison commentary.

49:48
JD
They're like, I have enough time. I can watch it twice. The second time was more like listen to a podcast, because that's sometimes how I see comment. Like, certain, there are some commentary tracks that are more slightly more engaging with the picture itself, but this one was more of just Bruce Timm and Grant Morrison having a conversation.

50:08
Case
So I'm curious because I haven't watched it with the commentary track, and I love being a commentary track. What we're in. What were big takeaways? Like, what did Grant think of this Morrison?

50:18
JD
So Morrison loves this movie a lot. And something that really surprised me was what Morrison? How Morrison views this in relation to other superhero movies, because Morrison said on the comment, and now, granted, this was when the commentary track was made for the Blu rays. So this was at this point, I feel like it was like ten years ago. Yeah. When was. When did this movie come out? It was 20 12. Okay. Yeah. So it would probably have been like 20, like, probably like late 2011, early 2012 when that was recorded. So at the time. So this about. Yes. So about ten years ago, Morrison said this was their third favorite superhero movie. And. Yes. And number two was unbreakable, the in night Shyamalan movie, which. Yeah, yeah. Great movie.

51:08
Duke
Totally number one.

51:09
JD
Number one was Disney's Hercules.

51:12
Duke
Yes. Really?

51:16
JD
Yes. They say that I'm like, Morrison, you maniac. I love you.

51:22
Duke
Yep. It's the best Superman movie ever made.

51:26
Case
I don't agree.

51:31
JD
Christopher Reeve has some words for you.

51:34
Duke
I love Christopher Reeve. I do. I really do. But, like, Disney's Hercules, it's like you guys got the Clark and Lois dynamics so well that it's really hard to see them wear these greek costumes when I know that's just what Clark and Lois right here, and obviously Phil is Perry White. Come on, Danny.

51:55
Case
I wish I could.

51:56
Duke
Danny Devito is periwinkle.

51:57
JD
Danny Devito is Perry White. I'm thinking about that. I want that instead. I'm sorry, Ed Asner, we love you. I'm sorry.

52:02
Case
But Danny DeVito, that can actually be pretty funny.

52:05
JD
Kent, where are you? I'm coming out of the couch now.

52:09
Duke
And James woods is like Lex Luthor. Come. I mean, that was so good. They used it for that cartoon Justice League action that cartoon network gave up on back, you know, before James woods became James woods, so.

52:20
Case
Yeah, well, before we all knew who James really was.

52:23
JD
Yeah. Yeah. It still baffles me that man, the man that we know who he is now, was in Videodrome. And Salvador, that doesn't make sense to me. But, hey, you'll do things for money. I'm still glad that. I'm still glad that he was out. We got him as owl man.

52:40
Duke
He's a great, speaking of Grant Morrison adaptations. Yeah, he was pretty great as owl man.

52:44
JD
Yeah, he's a great owl man.

52:45
Duke
It's like, it's a shame because it's like him playing Hades. He loved playing Hades so much, he would return for anything. They're like, yeah, just give me the money and I'll do it. Like the Kingdom Hearts games. He came back for Hades. What was it, the Hercules cartoon series? Was any hades for that?

53:02
Case
Yeah, the animated. The animated series that accompanied the movie.

53:05
Duke
He was, like, such a team player.

53:07
JD
But also a disappointment. Yeah, disappointment. That's, that's. That's the, that's the concise way to put it.

53:16
Case
Too bad we got James woods when we should have had James schooz.

53:24
JD
Oh, man. I want. I really wish that James woods was like, running for office for some. For something, and then someone comes in and has that as their slogan campaign. It's just like, yeah, my opponent. What a dick.

53:40
Case
Well, they could actually put that in, like, family guy, because in that, James woods is. Yeah, isn't he a politician at one point? There's definitely, like, they make a lot of James woods jokes. And he shows up at one point.

53:49
JD
Yeah, he shows. Well, there's that episode where he and Peter become friends, and then later he falls in love with Lois's sister. Oh, yeah, yeah. And, like, Lois's sister is, like, known for, like, marrying a lot of people. So, like, Lois is, like, not cool with it, but Peter's like, yeah, but it's James woods. He's my friend.

54:07
Case
We're in danger of going too far. We need to reveal this one back in. So looking. You know, we're kind of. We've been circling around this all because, like, they're the actual events of this movie. Again, as we've said, all happen in the comics. So when went issue by issue in the comics, we've gone through all of the big ticket items. There's a couple minor differences, as we said, like, there's a great bit that McDuffie introduced of the, like, what would you do with superpowers? I'd help people. You would like the wonderful stuff that's in there. I think there's a lot of, like, polishing of already, like, very obvious gyms that are going on throughout this whole thing.

54:42
Case
Like I said, the confrontation with Luthor at the end, where he feels much more indebted to society and comes off really making a full on heel turn or a heel face turn. Whereas in the comic it's there, but I think it's less, like, pronounced in it all. I think it works better in the actual animated finale. Those are all things that work really well about this all. And then the other side of it is that, again, we said this at the beginning. This is a mass market thing. It is much easier to convince a person to watch a 70 minutes cartoon than, say, sit down with twelve comic issues and read this incredibly dense thing. My question to the table, because, again, all the events happen.

55:21
Case
And, like, while you might think, like, all right, yeah, Burrell and Lilo could have been moved and replaced with a different thing. You know, it would have been nice to have the carnivore, all those elements, like. But my question to the table is, does this effectively sell all star Superman as a bigger story? And does this effectively sell Superman? Which is the goal of this whole project in general, which is like, let's tell the best version of a Superman story to get people who kind of wrote off Superman back on board.

55:50
Duke
I think it does. I do think it does a great job representing the comic itself and the story it's telling. And it's clear that the story they're telling is within the framework of, if you have a cursory, like, knowledge, the DCAU. You can kind of get behind this because, you know, Ma Kent shows up despite the fact that the Kents are dead in the comics and just kind of the. The overall vibe of it feels like you can kind of, like, watch this as a kind of loose extension of super nts. I do think it does a great job selling this version of Superman to people who kind of fell off the character for a bit.

56:28
JD
I agree. I agree with it. Selling the comic and the character. I have nothing else to add. Duke said it best.

56:38
Duke
I do want to point out that they did cut my favorite line from the comic. And it's such a. It's such a. It's such an awful pun. But in the prison interview when Lex Luthor's talking about the bibliobot, he says it could recite the frequent. It could recite Moby Dick at a frequency that could shatter earth. Right. Literally boring.

57:00
Case
So boring.

57:00
Duke
The earth.

57:01
Case
Yeah.

57:02
Duke
Like, Sith thinks Moby Dick is boring. And I think that's a great punishment.

57:05
JD
He would think. He would think, right.

57:09
Duke
And that's why I love James Wood.

57:16
JD
I'm on. Here's the thing. I'm honestly shocked we have. We never got James woods as Luthor.

57:23
Duke
In something just, like, action, was he? Yeah.

57:26
JD
Oh, crap.

57:27
Duke
Yeah, yeah.

57:28
Case
We're not deviating back to James woods.

57:29
Duke
Sorry.

57:30
Case
Sorry I made that joke. I did not intend for us to go back less.

57:33
JD
Airtime is the best choice.

57:37
Duke
The James woods episodes later.

57:39
JD
Yeah, no, it's not. No, it's not. James. Hey, last thing we'll say, james woods, fuck you. The official stance of men of steel.

57:48
Case
Sure. Yes.

57:49
Duke
Yeah, yeah, that's fine. I mean, one of the co hosts.

57:53
Case
Of Men of Steel agree with our guests. He's a creep, you know, setting the course for her show.

57:58
JD
I'm taking over the podcast.

57:59
Case
Case J Mike, for you, since you came to this movie first, like, in terms of, like, selling the story, like, as far as being a compelling thing and whatnot. Like, did that all work for you? Like, did this make you, like, Superman more? Does, you know, what was its impact on you?

58:15
Jmike
It makes me appreciate Superman more. Like, so whenever you have a big comics person tell you, like, hey, you know, you should really get in this character because of blah, blah. For Superman, one of the first things they tell you is you got to read all star Superman. It's like your gateway into the Superman mythos. And I asked from, like, a bunch of people I talked to, like, cons and Macfest and all that other stuff, and it kind of rings true because this is, like, the perfect, you said the perfect example of what it means to be Superman. And do I think I have some nitpicks here or there, maybe?

58:49
JD
Sure.

58:50
Jmike
But it's still, like, one of the best. It's one of the best things if you ever want to get into the Superman mythos, period and sound bar none.

58:59
JD
Without a doubt, I agree.

59:00
Case
Yeah. I mean, it's very digestible. Like, the comic itself is a pretty quick read, even if it is a quick read.

59:06
Jmike
I don't think that's a quick read, case.

59:09
Case
I it was breezy when I read it or reread it for. For this, like, by the third.

59:14
Duke
By your third answer, it's not as.

59:16
Case
Quick a reread as, like, say, reading Death of Superman, which was like, oh, yeah. Fight. Fight. Well, and there's interesting stuff going on in there, like, when that episode will be dropping soon, and it's, we go into all the issues leading up to it, doing the whole, like, fewer and fewer panels, and it's really cool. There's. There's cool stuff going on, but. But yeah, the fight's a fight where it's. Whereas in this, the fight is usually not how you get to the win. You know, like, yeah, sure, Superman punches a star so hard that it explodes at one point. And we haven't even talked about Solaris in this yet, and I love it. But fighting is rarely the main way that Superman overcomes a thing.

59:58
Case
The whole point of him defeating Luthor by way of using time itself is to show that violence isn't the solution to most problems.

01:00:06
Duke
It's kind of the interesting thing. I know a lot of people have problems with Superman because they think he's overpowered, and all you have to do is write action stories. And you have that video of Grant Morrison saying you just give him people problems. But with, like, the way Grant Morrison approaches Superman, it's very much like, if you're going to put into video game terms, he's like a role playing character where he's more about conversational conflicts and ideological conflicts and just, like, you know, just, you know, working things out and seeing, like, what the heart of the story is and how can he make things right. And that's the key to the Superman story. It's in figuring out, like, okay, I placed in this situation. How can I make the best out of this?

01:00:42
Duke
Or how can I make sure someone who's weaker or smaller doesn't get stepped on? And that's, like, why I loved reading this, because it's like, wow. You know, you don't think about Superman being someone that just, like, you know, speaks through his problems like a lot of people would say they did. And that's kind of like, what changed me about, like, writing this character is like, okay, you have to think about it as an rpg, as, like, you know, nice little republic where you're doing more speech checks, then you'll eventually catch a bad guy. But diplomacy, right?

01:01:15
JD
Yeah, now that you say that, you reminded me of that. So there is a TTRPG podcast that I've been working on with some other people for a while that will eventually see the light of day, hopefully very soon. And my character is the legacy character in the team, and they are. They're the third in line, and it's like a family name. And this, the name of atomic man in this world is, like, seen as, like, they, like, this is like the superman of this world. And now that you mention this, I realized, like, that's how myself and our GM, Armon, have been playing these characters of, like, my, like, I am the. I am the teen sidekick that my uncle used to be, and my uncle's now the second attack man after his father, my grandfather.

01:02:10
JD
And that's how we've been playing the character of, like, we talk. Like, we talk through our, we. We do talk through our issues, and, like, whenever we get it, whenever we do get into, like, physical conflicts, you know, of course we're rolling dice and we're taking chance. We're taking chances with the outcomes, but that's also what we're doing there is, like, talking out, like, okay, how do we handle this in a way that, you know, we're not gonna hurt? Like, we don't want to hurt people here. We want it. We want to cause the least amount of damage here. We want to make sure that every, everyone is safe. How? Like, what is the best option to do that? And that's what Superman does all the time.

01:02:57
JD
Superman is calculating these situations at lightning speed all the time, trying to make sure that there is a good outcome for everyone, even in some cases, even the antagonist of the situation. It's like he realizes that sometimes who he's in conflict with is correct in some way but not going about it the right way, so he wants to talk them down. Or he, or sometimes he does realize, like, well, maybe. Sometimes maybe brute strength is the best option in this particular situation, but not every situation. And, and the movie sells that very well because that was the whole point of the comic of.

01:03:41
JD
And, like, seeing that the COVID of that first issue, which is now the COVID of, like, the widely available trade that we see today of Superman, just look like, you know, sitting and with, you know, with his knees up to his chest and looking back at the reader and, like, that's Superman. He is, he is there watching, like, watching over us, you know, just checking things out, making sure everything's okay and looking back at us going, hey, I'm here for you.

01:04:12
Case
Yeah, it's the big dog situation. You know, it's the, when you, when you're afforded the ability to be relaxed, you can make sure that you're checking in on everyone else. Like, if you're not scared and not Bork, Bork, you can focus on being there and protective and happy and chill, and that's sort of like the tendency in temperament with larger dogs versus smaller dogs right there. Can you have a really good dog? Yeah. Will they murder snakes? Yeah.

01:04:43
JD
Will they also be very silly? Absolutely.

01:04:46
Case
Oh, yeah. Well, they all will be. And Superman has the potential to be silly. One of my favorite innovations of the modern era of Superman stuff is Superman as dad. Not sexy dad, but just like, as dad, like, as, you know, on Superman and Lois like him as the coach of the football team as a way of embarrassing his sons on purpose is great.

01:05:06
Duke
Yeah.

01:05:08
JD
Case, you need to stop selling me on this damn show.

01:05:11
Case
I know.

01:05:12
Jmike
I know.

01:05:12
Case
It's just, and it's those little moments that are so good in there, but, you know, or actually.

01:05:16
JD
And actually saying that, too. I also want to mention the Tomasi Gleason Superman run that was part of the rebirth era of, you know, John Kent have, like, them bringing in the pre crisis Superman and Lois and having John Kent there as a small boy and Superman getting to just be a dad on a farm.

01:05:38
Case
Yeah, those are great moments there. And, and here we are getting a lot of that. You know, we're denied Superman as a husband, were denied Superman as a father in this, like this. We are. Even though we understand that there will be a second generation, that they go much more explicitly about how it works in the animated one, by the way.

01:05:55
JD
Oh, yeah.

01:05:56
Case
Yeah.

01:05:56
JD
When Luthor says healthy human ovum, I'm like, oh, wow. They just, like, McDuffie just, like, explicitly said what they said, like, what he said and Quintum saying, like, well, they said they always wanted to have kids. And like, I will say, like, that moment. I do like that better than just for preference. For preference. Like, I like that more than the comic where in, like, in the comic, Quinton makes it sound like he's like, I'm doing this because, like, because we need it. I'm doing this because I'm a mad scientist. And here it's like, quintam is like, it's, it definitely makes it seem like after this, he is going to sit down with Lois and have a conversation and be like, is this something that.

01:06:37
Case
You want less of a science experiment? You know, there's a little bit more attention to all I appreciate, too, because.

01:06:43
Duke
It'S like, you know, I usually kind of go back and forth. Do I like this change? Do I not like this change? But, like, just the performance loan. Just like Lex going like, okay, you know what? The only good I can do in my remaining time, because I am going on the death sentence, I will help create another Superman for him. And that's where I start crying, where it's like, okay, now you show that, like, that this guy is capable of being a good person in his final moments. And that's why I do applaud the movie for at least making that massive change because it sells the emotional impact of, like, this Lex. Now, this might be controversial, but even though Superman is, you know, the title character is all star. Superman really likes with your story.

01:07:23
Case
I think more so in the animated version.

01:07:27
JD
I was guess I was gonna say the same thing. Like, it definitely makes that more so in the movie, especially with them using the comic panels from the. From the opening of. From the opening of the first issue and having Anthony LaPaglia as Luthor narrating the opening of the movie and then at the end reinforcing it makes it seem as though this is Luthor telling the story.

01:07:52
Duke
Yeah. This is Luthor's redemption. And that's why it made me love the movie a little bit more where it's like, okay, I can get behind this. Even though I'm still not fond of the pharrell and Leela. Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

01:08:05
JD
Well, hey, you know. Yeah, you're. Yeah, it is. You're right. It is weird.

01:08:11
Case
Yeah. I mean, compared to the comic. Because in the comic, I mean, it's already kind of a tangent, but, like, a lot of the issues have been kind of a tangent where, you know, this movie is more streamlined and it. And, like you pointed out, it is more focused on Luther. I think it. I think you can make that strong case there for the animated movie. And I think that the comic is really more trying to do. Like, here's the world of Superman. And that's why we get to spend some time with all these characters. Like, we spend time with Jimmy. And in a way that we just don't in this movie. You know, like, that's an area where I think the movie had to make the choice in terms of, like, well, we. We can't be everywhere.

01:08:46
Case
Like, we can't even get in as much of Lois's head as we'd like to. You know, the whole paranoia issue before she gets her powers. Yeah. Like, they do that a little bit, but, like, you can't get in her brain the same way. So we have to move through that story a little bit faster. We can't dwell on it, but we do dwell on Luthor. We do dwell on him in the prison. That whole scene is a very large chunk of this movie. And his ultimate resolution is much more emphasized.

01:09:13
JD
Yeah. I also do love that even though we don't have the Jimmy issue, we do have his introduction being in. In the dress from the comic.

01:09:21
Case
Yes.

01:09:22
JD
To show that and him being asked, like, are you on a job, Jimmy? He goes, no. Why? It's like, show. Just, once again, showing Jimmy just does not give. Just has no fucks to give. Like, I do what. What sounds fun and interesting and also I want to help my friends.

01:09:45
Duke
Jimmy Olsen's maximized potential is tintin by way of Bugs Bunny. And I stand by that.

01:09:50
JD
Okay, I agree.

01:09:52
Duke
Cause you got, like, the child adventurer thing, and he got Bugs Bunny, who's, like, an agent of chaos, a bit of a trickster, but, like, he deals with, like, bullies all the time.

01:10:00
JD
So everyone go read the Matt fraction, Steve Lieber, Superman's pal, Jimmy Olsen comic. It's incredible.

01:10:05
Duke
They made a tinted reference, too, so I'm not alone.

01:10:08
Case
Yeah. That is actually, like, the one thing I really regret about this. You know, cool stuff aside. Like, important stuff aside, I feel like media doesn't appreciate Jimmy Olsen enough.

01:10:20
JD
I think that is the, like, I do love the cronivore. But I think the big change, I would say, is drop bar only low and make it and include Jimmy and have more. Jimmy.

01:10:30
Duke
Yeah. I'd probably just say, like, don't make it 70 minutes. Just make it 90 minutes. Just let it breathe for a bit, because you're missing a lot.

01:10:39
Case
Yeah, yeah. Well, so here's a question that I was curious about. So, yes, the idea of a two part, 270 minutes, like, extravaganza doing issues one through six and then seven through twelve appeals to all of us as comics fans who would love to see it properly adapted into animated format. But I don't know if that necessarily would have gone over well for someone coming in totally blind. I don't think it would do its job of being like, are you into, like, do you not know what's going on with Superman? But you're culturally aware that there is a character like that. Check this out. And then all of a sudden, you'll like Superman. Like, that's the goal of this movie. Like, make. Make people like Superman. I don't know if, you know, I don't know if 270 minutes movies would have worked.

01:11:22
Duke
I don't know.

01:11:23
JD
I do think this is the best version of what we could. Of any. Any version we could have had. I think this is the best one.

01:11:29
Case
Well, I don't mind Duke's suggestion of, like, a 90 minutes and you get a little bit more from the comic in here. But I do appreciate that if they're told like, hey, you've got 70 minutes. Like, this is a pretty, you know, this is a pretty efficient, lean cut.

01:11:42
JD
And that's what I mean is like, them have, like all these movies having the time constraint until they decide, well, Batman movies get to be longer, of course, except for. Except for the time where we're going to adapt doomsday of the Death of Superman. Again, I do. I do appreciate the way it was adapted here. It's like if you have. If you're gonna have to have those time constraints, that adapting it this way was a good choice.

01:12:08
Duke
Yeah, I don't want to do a two part movie because, like, two part movies, like, narratively speaking, it's like you need a conclusive cliffhanger between part one to usher in a part two. And there's no way you can do that with all star Superman because, like, the midway through is the Lex Luthor prison interview and then the death of Paul Kent.

01:12:29
Case
Well, then it's the coronavirus scene. So you would end with Pa Kent's death.

01:12:32
Duke
Yeah. And then to be like, are we beginning the movie again? Like, what's going on here? Which is why I always felt like, you know, you just have the podcast thing be, like, packaged towards the end of act two in my hypothetical 90 minutes animated movie, as, like, here's him coming to grips with the fact, like, okay, I still can't beat time. Death is the victor of all of us. But no matter what has happened for a reason, and I should take stock in that. And here's the future coming to say thank you.

01:13:02
Case
I mean, I guess if you were going to do a two part movie, you would end with him getting captured by the bizarros and dragged down. And then you might want to shuffle some of the stories around. But, like, again, I don't think a two parter, like, I don't think you could just tell a person who has no interest in Superman, check out this two part movie.

01:13:19
Duke
Like, also, conversely, like, I keep thinking about, like, the long Halloween, and, you know, I've made my feelings on that movie, those movies very clearly where it's like, the long Halloween is structured similar to all star Superman, where it is very much just twelve issue, twelve episode vignettes with one overarching story. And how, like, sometimes it's probably for the best. You just truncate that to the essential three acts, because with long Halloween, you still had to do the, you still had to tackle the story where, like, Bruce Wayne's, like, in poison Ivy's thrall for like, three months. And that fills up so much time in part two where it's like, you know, you could have cut this out. This doesn't really have anything to do with the mystery. And it's just she was motivated by money. Who cares?

01:14:05
Duke
Which I know is a hot take.

01:14:06
JD
But I have not watched them.

01:14:09
Duke
Oh really?

01:14:10
Case
But then you wouldn't have poison Ivy.

01:14:12
JD
I have not watched them. And honestly I, as much as I loved the idea of Jensen ackles as Batman because I love him as Red Hood, I'm gonna keep it that. I'm gonna keep it this way. I'm okay. I'm okay with that being a blind spot.

01:14:24
Duke
Oh, probably for the best because the ending got me screaming.

01:14:26
JD
Yeah, I mean, well, cuz also like the great thing about like not, I don't want to go too much on tangent long Halloween cuz it's not, this is not about, this is not a Batman podcast.

01:14:36
Duke
No.

01:14:36
Case
This is explicitly not a bad man.

01:14:39
JD
But the only thing I will say about this comic is the great thing about the end of the comic is that you don't know who the killer is. They make it very clear of like it could lit like we're making it. Everybody, everybody was the killer.

01:14:54
Duke
It's like the ending to clue.

01:14:57
JD
Yes, yes. Everybody watched clue. Clue is a great movie.

01:15:02
Duke
Yeah, and the comics right too.

01:15:03
JD
I didn't know there's a clue comic. So. Yeah, everyone read the clue comic.

01:15:06
Duke
Really? Yeah, it's really good. It's funny.

01:15:08
JD
Okay, cool. Read the comic and also watch that movie. Also read all star Superman and watch all star Superman.

01:15:14
Duke
Yeah. So my point is like I, yeah, like after long Halloween, sometimes you don't want to do a two part movie, especially with that same kind of storytelling implemented in the original source material. We get like it works for Death at return of because like you have a very good cliffhanger for Death of Superman. He dies and then return.

01:15:33
JD
I didn't want to get into that. I didn't want to like go down that rabbit hole. But, but I fully agree like that. Like there's a reason I think those movies actually work.

01:15:41
Duke
Yeah. So I do agree with like it's better off just one installment maybe with a little bit more time, but it's fine the way it is. Like I wouldn't trade for the world.

01:15:52
Case
Yeah. Even if there are spots where it's like, well, it could be slightly tighter at some spots. It's, or I would have liked certain scenes from the comics brought in here. You know, like we said Jimmy Olsen would be cool. The bizarre stuff I understand them cutting, but also would be cool. Like the, you know, the coronavirus stuff would be cool. All these are good things that would have been nice. And maybe the Burrell and Lilo thing is too much, but, like, it's still, again, I referred to this as being like an abridged series in a positive light here. You know, I like not, it's not comedy overlaid on it all, but, you know, we're telling a twelve part story and we're getting it into 70 minutes, and that is a hard task.

01:16:31
Duke
Yes.

01:16:32
Case
Most times when you're talking about a.

01:16:34
JD
Twelve issue comic, I do not envy Dwayne McDonald's in this, in this case. And he did a phenomenal job.

01:16:39
Duke
Yeah. Especially with a story this well regarded. Like, if it was like Flashpoint, it's like Dover, the fuck you want change anything.

01:16:45
Case
Right? But, like, usually when we're talking about a twelve issue comic, we're talking, it's going to be considered unfilmable because of just the scope of it all. And if it made it into a movie, they probably, you know, made some choices that not everyone agrees with. Watchmen.

01:17:00
JD
Yeah. Why did you invoke that name on this show?

01:17:05
Case
I mean, I don't, look, I don't. The Watchmen movie is fine because it's an adaptation of a great comic. It's just, you know, it's not doing anything that's really like elevating the source material. And here I would say we do get some spots that elevate this source material. Again, the themes of when you are gifted with power, that there will be an element of that all, especially when we're talking about like, the. The true scope of Superman's powers, like all of his senses and so forth, that will drive you to try to better because all of the things that we're afraid of, all the things that we put in front of our lives that allow us to be selfish and cruel, those get stripped away in this power fantasy of being Superman. So I think that thesis stands out a lot better.

01:17:47
Case
Again, it's a much more luthor centric movie that, as we kind of arrived at in this call that. I think that is a cool element. It's not. Here's all the things about Superman all over that you should like. It's. It. There is this driving narrative of, like, trying to do good with what you have and like. And that you shouldn't let other things get in the way of being the best, like, super, you know, Luthor's big redemption at the end is only that he could have done more even before all that. And, like, that would have been a great element for him. And I think that should be thesis that you take away from this, that, like, whatever gifts you have, you should try to put forward making the world a better place, maybe.

01:18:32
Duke
Don't be a dick. That's a theme of Superman. Don't be a dick.

01:18:38
Case
Yeah.

01:18:38
Jmike
Yeah, that's a better point. You know, Spider man takes pictures of himself. He makes me off of it.

01:18:45
Case
Well, making a living while doing, like, he's making a living while being a superhero.

01:18:49
JD
Like, you know what? Peter Parker is broke as hell. So, like, I get it. We live it. We live in a capitalist society. You got to do what you got to do sometimes.

01:18:58
Case
But that is the same lesson, though, because it. Because Spider man first tried to just do what? Like, just try to make money off of his powers initially and that. That he learned was wrong. It's okay to. It is okay to see to yourself. Self care is important. All the things that we talk about in society now of, like, trying to actually attend to yourself in a way is fine as long as you're not toxic and destructive and you use the things that you have to make other people's lives better. You know, that's. That should be thesis of why we look at heroic literature, because we are trying to look for some kind of moral guidance.

01:19:32
Case
Like, don't be ashamed that you have to, like, sleep because you're tired or eat because you're hungry, but don't take someone else's food if they also are hungry.

01:19:42
JD
Spread happiness and don't be a dick about it.

01:19:44
Case
Yeah, I mean, that's why we look at Superman stuff. That's because we like to dream, if were stripped away of all of our mortal failings, that we would do the best that we could.

01:19:55
JD
Exactly.

01:19:56
Case
So what I want to say is, hey, now, you're an all star. Get your game on.

01:20:01
JD
You've been holding that in. You've been holding that in for so long. I know it. Okay, that's it. This is the end. You've ended it.

01:20:13
Case
I mean, I feel like we've been kind of circling, but final thoughts on. On All Star Superman as a property, on the movie, on the comic, whatever you want to say, like, this is. This is your time. Duke, you're up first.

01:20:25
JD
As a.

01:20:25
Duke
As a comic, I am indebted to it because it is fantastic. As a, as. On one hand, a very beautiful love letter to this guy who genuinely represents the best of what we can be as people, and on the other hand, of really incites kind of dive into how messed up his life is by gaslighting the people around him so long that they can't believe his simple truths. And I genuinely appreciate it every time I read it and it brings me to tears. And I am forever thankful that Dwayne McDuffie got to write such a well done movie with so much love and so much reverence to this character and such a great, unique take to how Lex Luthor is capable of, you know, growing as a person. And it's just very well done. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you.

01:21:16
Case
Yeah, I'm so glad to have you on. Jd, what are your final thoughts on this?

01:21:21
JD
Well, as I mentioned earlier, this is my favorite comic. This was the comic that got me on board reading Morrison and understanding what they were going for in storytelling. And Superman has slowly become my favorite character. And this comic is just a. A perfect synthesis of what I love about the character. Everything silly, everything. Just everything great. I love about this character in this world that he inhabits and the, and the people surround people in his life and the conflicts he unwittingly gets into. All of it coming together in this story about accepting death and just realizing that it is a part of life and just wanting to leave a lasting legacy that, and knowing that there will be people after you to carry that on is absolutely beautiful. And Frank quitely is a God of art.

01:22:22
JD
And that is a simple fact that everyone must accept. The movie is wonderful for what they were tasked to do with, you know, with Dwayne McDuffie as writer and Sam Liu as director and the cast and the entire. All the animation studios that worked on this movie, like, the fact that they were having to simplify and streamline this vast twelve issue story into a 75 minutes movie is a massive feat. And they did a very good job with what they were going to do. And I really love the movie for that.

01:22:57
Case
Well said. J. Mike, your final thoughts on all of this?

01:23:02
Jmike
I'm just going to go off of what you guys mentioned earlier where as the book is more of like, this is the universe of Superman. The movie, like you guys said, focuses more on Lex's redemption and his realization that, oh, wait, I don't need to be a dick to everyone. I can actually help people. And that he's the one that actually comes up with the Superman formula at the end of the movie. He figures it out himself and it's kind of cool to see it from that perspective because, you know, Lex is almost always a dick in every comic that he's in, but it's good to, like, finally see him, like, the light pop on and, like, it dawned upon him, even though it's like his last moments, but it dawns upon him. It's like, oh, wait. Yeah, he was right.

01:23:44
Jmike
I don't have to be this way. I can actually use it, my brains to help people. And that's something that you don't get to see all the time. So I do appreciate the movie for that part.

01:23:53
Case
Yeah. I mean, it's funny looking back on this one, when the comic was first announced, I was excited. I like Grant Morrison stuff, but like, I've said this before, like, Morrison, I think oftentimes has a lot of ideas going into small packages that I wish were decompressed a bit. You know, the opposite of a Brian Michael Bendis and which Bendis own faults. And I enjoyed lots of business. So when this comic first came out issue by issue, I was like, I'm enjoying this, but I don't see this as must read. And when the, when it was finished, and then you look back at the totality of it, you're like, oh, I see why this is so good.

01:24:26
Case
You know, you see this bigger thing, and this movie, I think, does a really good job of distilling it into a really, you know, like I said, a very lean cut, a very, like, expedient way of absorbing all of the, like, the really big points. And sure, it's missing out on, you know, some of the floral notes that Morrison and quite Lee inserted into the original. But like I said, it's still this, like, wonderful distillate of the pure idea that's going into it all. So I'm really glad to look back on this comic, especially after now doing this show for four years where we've just talked about Superman stuff and, like, really talked about, like, why we like the material.

01:25:00
Case
And look at this thing that's such a celebration of Superman material, and to look then at this movie that is such a distillate of such a celebration of Superman material. And so I'm really glad that we had the chance to talk about the comic before with Alan and June, and I'm really glad that I got JD and Duke, the two of you, on this one, because before we started the episode, we realized that JD and Duke are currently tied for most number of appearances on Men of Steel. And that's just wonderful because I enjoy chatting with the both of you so much. You're just both wonderful people to enjoy comics with and to enjoy all this stuff with. And J Mike, like, the fact that we've done now 101 episodes of this show together.

01:25:38
Case
You know, it started off as the two of us would just chat about Superman stuff when Ben and Addie would shit on Superman and prop up Batman every chance they got during certain pov recordings and scruffy Nerf recordings. Yeah, we would just, like, talk like, oh, this was a cool comic. And I would loan you after recording Nerf herders, like, on random nights, I do eventually want my copy of the greatest Superman stories ever told.

01:25:59
Jmike
I don't know what you're talking about. What do you mean? It's been like four years in my life. What? That's crazy.

01:26:09
Case
Again, this is 101 episodes of a Superman podcast. We've been doing this for four years, celebrating the man of steel. I can't think of a better co host. I can't think of better guests that we've had on. We've had so many. And, you know, two of our best are right here on this call with us right now. So, again, thank you all for. For the celebration, for all the listeners out there who have tuned in and actually heard this show, which, you know, there's some out there. Thank you. Thank you all. Like, this material has been so much fun, and the chance just to live in this mental space is honestly one of the best parts about what has been a rough couple of years for all of us.

01:26:45
Case
And I'm really happy to have this conversation right now, and I'm really glad that we are going to keep on going. So, plugs, Duke, where can people find you? Follow you? What have you got going on?

01:26:57
Duke
You can always follow me on Twitter. Professor of evil. That's basically it right now. I'm just kind of working on my own stuff for. For a while, so.

01:27:05
Case
All right, well, everyone should check that out. JD, how about you?

01:27:07
JD
So you can follow me on Twitter at JD. Underscore. Underscore Martin. I believe that's still what it is. Yeah, that's where it is. Because there's a lot of JD Martin's out in the world, so that's what I.

01:27:18
Case
Apparently you can change it. We found out eventually you can.

01:27:22
JD
Which maybe. Maybe I should. Should. I don't know anymore. I'll just. I'll just continue to keep it that way because I like making things more difficult for myself. So, yeah, I've got my two podcasts, comics quest and peoples and reflections here on certain pov. On the certain pov network. I'm really bad about making sure those episodes get uploaded, so I have episodes banked. They will be. Will be coming out very shortly. I'm hoping by the time this episode is out, there will be new episodes of that. Those shows out. Until then, I do know that when this episode drops, there is the first episode of a new podcast that I have with the one and only Meg Griffin called screaming in Woodsboro, where we're discussing the scream franchise across the month of October, coming out every Monday.

01:28:07
JD
So before this episode drops, I believe the first episode where we talk about the first movie will be out. You can check that out wherever you get your podcast. Don't believe we're gonna have any social media for that. So just follow me on Twitter. Follow Meg on Twitter, and we'll. We'll be putting that out there into the world. And also because I. Because I'm going to channel my fellow GME member Alan Kistler and say, everyone, go watch the movie Barbarian. It is incredible. Zack Craggart made the most abs, the. The craziest batshit movie of the year outside of RR. So please go watch Barbarian. And, yeah, and also, since we kept talking about it, go watch Justice League action. It's a great little show.

01:28:56
Jmike
Oh, yeah.

01:28:57
JD
And also watch Batman, the Brave and the bold. This is not a Batman podcast, but watch that. That cartoon.

01:29:02
Case
I'm not explicitly anti Batman. I just don't want to. So that's fine.

01:29:06
Duke
And watch Daisy's Hercules, because that's also good.

01:29:09
JD
It is. Yeah. It is fun.

01:29:11
Case
And then listen to the another pass episode we just did on Disney's Hercules, where I was overridden by our guest and my co host because they wanted notes.

01:29:23
JD
Yeah, go watch Barbarian. It's a. It's a very good movie. If you're. If you're in for a time, a moment in a. In a movie theater where you will audibly scream like I did in the movie. I audibly screamed at one moment in the movie. Go have a really fucked up fun time.

01:29:41
Case
Nice. And J Mike, where can people find you? Follow you. What have you got going on?

01:29:46
Jmike
Oh, you can find me on Twitter. A 101. I respond to funny jokes, memes, pictures, all that stuff. It might be kind of slow for a while because I'm only using my phone because my computer was Kia by Microsoft updates. So I will get back to you guys as soon as possible if I don't respond right away.

01:30:05
Case
All right, well, people should definitely check you out, even if you're a little quiet at the moment, coming back strong with your solid gif game. And, you know, also, people should be checking out the Min of Steel pod account on Twitter. They should be checking out more episodes of this show, which you can find@certainpov.com where there's tons of other great shows such as Comics Quest, if you're wondering about where to get into comics. Fortunately, they're evergreen episodes. So even if there hasn't been one in a little bit, you can go check that out. And JD, I'm gonna put some pressure on you to get one of those episodes out there.

01:30:38
JD
You know what? Yeah, you know what? I'll say this. I'll make, I'll make this. I'll make this. The week this episode drops, I will not have only uploaded one. I will upload both episodes. I have banked. I will upload them both. They're not that long. So I, so it won't take. So it should not take me long to edit them. But I, I will say the week that this episode drops, those two episodes will be out. So you'll, so you'll get prime content about me talking the autumnal and Rorschach. There you go.

01:31:11
Case
Excellent. Excellent. Well, people should check out those episodes as well as soon as they drop. I'm sure they will be out by the time this episode comes out. But, you know, go to certainpov.com dot. There's a link to our discord server where you can come interact with us directly. You can get sneak peeks at upcoming episodes of our shows. We have a great community we're building there. You should check out our YouTube channel, Certainpov Media, where we've got videos on Superman analogues I've been doing. We've got clips from this show, another pass. We've got videos from fun and games for the animated versions of side quests, which. Duke, you've had one that actually, we did the animated one for JD, I don't think you've been on sidequest yet.

01:31:45
JD
I have not, because I don't play video games.

01:31:47
Case
Fair enough. Well, but if you like video games, go and check that out. And again, we have animated versions of it now. So those are really cool. And do all those things, but then come back and celebrate Superman some more. We've done 101 episodes and we've got more in the pipeline. So come back, celebrate Superman. And until then, stay super man.

01:32:12
Jmike
Men of Steel is a certain pov production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and case Aiken. The show is editing by Matt Storm. Our logo is by Chris Bautista. Episode art is by case Aiken, and our theme is by Jeff Moon.

01:32:31
Case
So let's do a clap for Matt so that he doesn't kill us, okay? And so that we don't forget.

01:32:36
JD
Hey, Matt.

01:32:36
Case
One, two, three.

01:32:37
JD
And Matt, we love you.

01:32:38
Duke
Love you, man. I love you.

01:32:39
Case
I love you the most.

01:32:41
Jmike
Oh, that's not fair.

01:32:43
Case
How fucking dare you make me sound great? Maybe J Mike loves me. Okay, so one, two, three, and then clap, right?

01:32:51
JD
All right, ready? So I have a question. Have you ever wanted to get into comics, but you just didn't know where to start? Well, welcome to comics quest. I'm JD Martin, and every week I sit down with a guest to talk a comic that I think anybody can pick up and start their comics reading journey. We take a look at psychotic Sci-Fi fantastic apps, action, heart wrenching love stories, and, of course, superheroes. So check us out@certainpov.com. Or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

01:33:22
Case
Cpov, certainpov.com.