There are few pairings that can rival the acclaim of Batman and Superman, but the teaming of Mark Waid with Dan Mora may be a solid challenger! Jim Fetters is back to chat with Case and Jmike about the first arc in DC's Batman / Superman: World's Finest.

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Overview:

●      In episode 134 of the Podcast Discussion meeting, hosts Casey Aiken and Jmike Folson, joined by guest Jim Fetters, delve into the intricacies of the "World's Finest" comic series, focusing on the first arc encompassing issues 1-6. They commend the creative efforts of Mark Waid and Dan Mora, highlighting the series' blend of Silver Age charm and contemporary storytelling. Key discussions include the engaging character dynamics between Robin and Supergirl, the introduction of the villain Devil Nezha, and the seamless integration of time travel elements. Mora's dynamic art style receives particular praise, alongside Waid's effective narrative techniques, such as flashbacks and emotional portrayals of iconic characters. The hosts celebrate the comic's positive tone, contrasting it with darker narratives in recent years, and recommend "World's Finest" as a standout title from DC's current lineup. The meeting concludes with Jim Fetters sharing details about his work and the hosts providing podcast information for listeners.

Notes:

●      #####  World's Finest Comic Discussion (00:00 - 11:36). Podcast hosts Casey Aiken and J. Mike Falsen discuss World's Finest comic. Guest Jim Fetters joins to talk about the first arc (issues 1-6). Mark Waid and Dan Mora praised for their work on the series. Comic set in an unspecified past with Silver Age elements. Dick Grayson's Robin highlighted as a standout character. Supergirl and Robin's awkward relationship introduced

●      #####  Character Dynamics and Story Elements (11:36 - 22:43). Devil Nezha introduced as the main villain. Doom Patrol incorporated into the story. Time travel elements discussed, including Supergirl's casual ability to fly through time. Batman and Superman's friendship portrayed effectively. Dan Mora's art style compared to Norm Breyfogle's work

●      #####  Art and Storytelling Techniques (22:43 - 31:53). Dan Mora's art praised for its effectiveness and dynamic style. Mark Waid's storytelling techniques highlighted, including use of flashbacks. General Immortus character moment discussed. Batman-Superman fusion scene praised

●      #####  Story Structure and Character Development (31:54 - 41:22). Cliffhangers at the end of issues noted as effective. Batman's emotional portrayal discussed. Superman depicted as competent, capable, and compassionate. Book praised for its positive tone compared to darker recent comics

●      #####  Overall Praise and Recommendations (41:22 - 53:03). World's Finest recommended as one of DC's best current titles. Hosts and guest express enthusiasm for continuing to read the series. Jim Fetters shares where to find his work online. Podcast information and social media details shared

Transcription

00:00
Jim
He knows these guys inside and out. And so, you know, when you talk about having these, you know, these updated Silver Age type stories, he's like, one of the best people ever to be able to do that.

00:11
Case
Yeah. Like, it's almost quaint for us to, like, try to have, like, a real conversation about this book that isn't just, like, Mark Waid's, like, doing a really good job here doing. Doing exactly what Mark Waid does. And Dan Mora doing a really good job doing exactly what Dan Mora does.

00:26
Jim
Mark Waid's just going to. Mark Waid.

00:44
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm Casey Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Jm. ike Folson.

00:51
Jmike
Oh, wait, that's me. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Glad to have you.

00:58
Case
I mean, it's good to be here as a team, right? You and I, we have been stalwart companions for nigh on five, six years now for the run on this podcast. Oh, my gosh.

01:09
Jmike
Has it been that long?

01:10
Case
Something like that. I mean, this is like episode 130 or something like that. So. Yeah. With an average of 25 episodes a year. Yeah. We're in our sixth year of doing this together, and it's good to have a team like that because, you know, like, we support each other, we're able to back each other up. Some might say we're this world's finest.

01:32
Jmike
Oh, my gosh. He said the thing.

01:37
Case
You know, it's been a long time coming for us to have, like, a proper world's finest episode, considering that is such a important part of the history of Superman and the lore of Superman. And so today, we are going to have a conversation about the recent world's finest first arc, which issues 1 6, which is the devil Neza story. We're going to talk a little bit about the book, but to have that conversation about the book, we are joined once again by Jim Fetters. Hey, Case.

02:03
Jim
Hey, J. Mike. Good to be back.

02:05
Case
So good to have you back, and especially on Not a Legion book, because that's a lot of our shared love and how we connected with Legion of Superheroes. And I'm always here for more Legion of Superheroes conversation. But it's nice to know that you contain multitudes.

02:19
Jim
Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I mean, Superman is kind of a gateway to pretty much everything in dc. Superman is another love of mine as well, especially with all the new stuff going on with this book. And you have my invention with Superman cartoon out there. That's awesome. So, yeah, I'M here for it all. Yeah.

02:38
Case
It's a good time to be a Superman fan.

02:39
Jim
Absolutely.

02:40
Jmike
You're eating finally.

02:41
Case
I know, I know, right? Finally, like, the last season of Superman and Lois is coming out right about now. And that I have mixed feelings about it ending because I have actually really enjoyed that show. We haven't talked about it as much as we initially hoped. We talked about it a bunch when it first came out and then haven't had a chance to really do, like, season recaps, which we wished that we had. But it was always just like, timing ended up being weird. And all of a sudden it was like, oh, that's. That was. The new season's already out now. But yeah, we're eating as Superman fans. But one area that we're eating and it's real good, or at least it's been real good recently.

03:18
Case
And I would say generally is that classic pairing of Superman with Batman, like, that is so important to the history of Superman. Like I was saying before, you know, there's such a foundation of like, these rich, like, what if stories, or just like, team up stories between the two and Bat and Robin really making up this triumvirate that were, you know, tons of stories from the 50s, 60s, 70s, like, and continuing to do, like, many more, like, wonderful runs with that same title. You know, at some point we're going to have to talk about the 90s World's Finest Maxi Series. Like, the 12 issues that like, takes place like, each year with them jumping forward in stories as like, their, like their. Their first encounter into their modern friendship. But the, but the recent book with.

04:05
Case
With Mark Waid and Dan Mora, man, that's a really good book.

04:09
Jim
It's good. It's amazing. Yeah, it's probably, in my opinion, I think it's probably the best thing that DC has been publishing over the last two years.

04:16
Case
I mean, kind of. Yeah. Like, I am a noted Mark, Wade, Stan and me too. So I don't think it's a surprise. And then Dan Mora just is a great artist and is really blown up coming from Power Rangers or at least like, that's where he like, first crossed my radar, which is, you know, also just a fun bit. But, like, he's such a. He's just like one of those artists, like, that just like, really stands out. Like, like a Chris Sprouse, for example. We were talking off mic about Legion stuff before this and, you know, like, that's the kind of artist where it's just like. Yeah, no, everything he draws just like, looks pretty Good. Like, especially with this classic style. So this is set in an unspecified past where things are just a little bit more Silver Agey.

05:00
Case
When we finally see the Titans, it's like the 60s version of the Titans. It's not even the 80s new Teen Titans, which would have been the low hanging fruit there, yet it still has.

05:10
Jim
A more modern spin to everything.

05:13
Case
It feels updated but classic. A very timeless kind of approach to like, to these characters.

05:21
Jim
Yeah, I mean, I think, and I'm sure we'll get into this, but I mean, you know, specifically, I think what jumps out at me when I look at this whole book. Right. Is kind of Robin. Right. How he's drawn and depicted Robin in.

05:33
Case
This book is probably my favorite part, frankly, because I like everything else that's going on in this book. But you know what? This book made me remember how much I like Dick Grayson as Robin.

05:44
Jmike
Yes.

05:44
Jim
Yes.

05:45
Case
Because, like, Dick Grayson is one of the few characters who's managed to, like, get a new identity and like, really, like, own it. Like, he's Nightwing now. Like, and he's Nightwing in most media that he appears in now, which is, you know, a real testament to the character's transition. Like, not a lot of characters can. Can take up a new identity like that and own it that much. But here, like, we're getting that like, fully with, or rather like, here we're reminded, like, how great the Dick Grayson Robin was, you know, like. Yeah, like, I, I think everyone has, like an opinion on their favorite Robin, but I think it's hard to deny that, like, Dick Grayson being the original had an essential flavor that made the dynamic with Batman, but especially the dynamic with Batman and Superman, so wonderful.

06:29
Case
And Mark Waid writes the shit out of this character.

06:32
Jim
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you have this view of him where it's kind of the greatest hits of Robin distilled into this one character. He has all the abilities and the fighting capabilities, but he also has the witness and the one liners and the comebacks and, you know, and just a lot of really good moments that are. That just, you know, make you feel good. Right. And make you laugh and make you realize this is why I like comic books. Right.

06:59
Case
Yeah. And the introduction of the awkward tension with Supergirl.

07:01
Jim
Yeah.

07:02
Case
Which is fucking beautiful. Like, it's two characters who you always figure, like, yeah, they probably should have been like, better friends than they were in the comics. And it's like, oh, here's why. Because they're incredibly uncomfortable with each other.

07:15
Jim
Yeah. And I can't Remember, it's definitely down the line. I can't remember when in the future of the series they actually get into what happened. Which is an awesome read.

07:27
Case
Yeah. It's a fantastic single issue that is just the worst date two superheroes can have. Yeah. They do wonderful stuff there. And Kara is great as well as a character once she is looped into this, because it starts with the foundation of Superman, Batman and Robin. But they quickly bring in other team members and it's not like, well, we have to go. Go do this alone. Because we're the dynamic, like, it's fully inviting. Like the 60s Doom Patrol.

07:53
Jmike
Yeah.

07:54
Case
And Supergirl and, you know, like this whole dynamic here. It's wonderful. So I.

07:59
Jmike
It looks so good too, all this art style. It's so good.

08:03
Case
Yeah. The heart's so good. It, like, we're just getting wonderfully classic renditions of these characters. Like, we get the blue and gray Batman, which I always love.

08:14
Jim
And then one of the things that jumped out at me too, the bat emblem for the quote unquote modern story parts of this is it's almost very specifically designed to be that late 80s, early 90s Michael Heaton Batman era logo with that scalloped underneath of the bat symbol. And it's just. Just perfectly drawn and, you know, and so it really kind of helps, like you were saying the earlier case, it really kind of helps cement the time frame of, you know, kind of when these things are happening, but not being too specific about it and, you know, just there's a lot of visual shorthand here that really helps move the book along without being bogged down in too much exposition, I think.

09:00
Case
Yeah. Now, on that note, we should probably talk about how they open this story, considering that it's not exactly out of continuity, but it's out of. It's, you know, it's a flashback to a slightly earlier time. It could fit in whatever canon you sort of choose to accept for these characters.

09:17
Jim
Yeah.

09:17
Case
So the threat of this arc is entirely invented. I think I wouldn't put it past Mark Wade to actually have this be like a deep cut DC reference. But, like, I think it's entirely invented for this arc.

09:28
Jim
Well, I did a little bit of poking around on that because I was curious about this exact thing as well. So the devil Neza was actually, from what I understand, introduced in the monkey. Was it the monkey prince?

09:40
Case
Oh, was he really?

09:41
Jim
Yeah. Yeah. So if you. If you look around on that's kind of where the character was kind of built from the DC universe point of View.

09:49
Case
Anyway, okay, that's wild because I read that book, but at the same time, like, it was just like, ooh, here's the next Supernatural thing. And then whoosh. Like out of my head. Next supernatural thing, right?

09:59
Jim
I mean, I think it was just very. I think that was a very quick intro in that book. And I think there's Mark just, like, appropriate.

10:06
Case
Well, that makes sense. Mark Wade does love incredibly deep cut continuity. And so I'm sorry for just immediately putting my foot in my mouth because, like, I just assumed that the story. Because it does feel like such a bottle episode or bottle plot, I should say that it could just be like completely in a vacuum. Actually. That makes. Makes me think of. There was this one time back when Kurt Busick was doing Untold Tales of Spider man where the annual for that and then I think the annual for the Avengers or it was some Until Tales was like, when Spider man was a boy kind of stories. And then he was like, doing some modern book for Marvel.

10:43
Case
He did simultaneously in the same month, like, the first appearance of this villain back in, like, the retro times, and then on modern time as he gets out of jail for the first time after his first appearance as a fun way of playing with time. So considering, like, when Monkey Prince was coming out in relation to this, like, those are, like, pretty overlapping in terms of, like, publication.

11:02
Jim
Yeah, I think it was in the very early issue. It's been forever, so I never. I didn't actually go back and read it. I want to do that actually just because of time. But. Yeah, but what I'm not sure about this is kind of one of the reasons I want to go back and read this is that the character is. Is loosely based on some Chinese mythology that, you know. And so. And in kind of the exposition background issue that goes into this, where, you know, Supergirl and Robin basically go back in time and kind of meet the people that entombed him originally.

11:35
Jim
They kind of tell the story, and the story actually is actually, I think, the Doom Patrol that actually tells the legend of this of the character, but it tracks pretty closely with the actual mythological character that's out there, who's kind of a. Kind of a. Almost like a Thor type, or not for a Loki type of character in.

11:55
Case
Chinese mythology that then also had, like a Super Sentai team. That was awesome.

12:01
Jim
I love. That was really cool.

12:05
Case
I adored that feature so much. I guess what I was just trying to get at is that this is a bottle story. Like, this can completely exist in a vacuum from any continuity that you care about or any canon that you care about. Like, it's a story that happens and it's, like, could just be a one off. The fact that the character may have appeared previously, but, like, in terms of the timeline at a later point and is open to you all, like, and I don't think this really affects that. So I think it's really effective in terms of introducing, like, okay, we've got a basic threat that is going to pop up. It's an adventure for these characters, and it's kind of a one and done, and it doesn't screw up anything when it's all. When everything is over.

12:47
Case
The only thing that, like, you could argue could screw up anything in terms of, like, the structure of this with, like, Your canon for D.C. Is the fact that Supergirl can casually fly through time.

12:58
Jim
Yeah, yeah, I noted that as well. That was a little bit. Okay.

13:03
Case
I'm, like, totally fine with it from a Silver Age standpoint. And I'm like, oh, I guess. I guess we now exist in a world where, like, Silver Age is the deal.

13:10
Jmike
She's like, hold on, we're going in.

13:13
Case
I love that moment. I am always here for that. Like, this is like a suprema or, like an Alan War supreme kind of, like, casual approach to those levels of superpowers, and I find that really fun. It's a really interesting way to take the characters as opposed to just the, like, oh, my God, I can't believe I can do this thing where I break through time. It's just like. No, we're like. I know all the tricks for, like, following people through time, and I loved it because it was just like. We're like, they're arguing and it's just like. And then it's just like, hold on, we're about to break through the time barrier.

13:48
Jim
Exactly. I was a little bit surprised, though, that, you know, they didn't, you know, talking Silver Age even, you know, in the 90s when they would do this, they would. They'd have that. That kind of that rainbow motif.

13:58
Case
Yeah.

13:59
Jim
You know, and they didn't. There was more of, like, this purple haze, which was fine. You know, it was good visual effect, but I was kind of looking for the. They're going through time. I was hoping to see, like, you know, some of those rainbow swirls or whatever. Yeah.

14:10
Case
With the years flying by or something like that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I think this book is trying to be visually updated. Takes on, like, a very Silver Age, like, point.

14:24
Jim
Absolutely.

14:24
Case
With Mark Waid's sensibilities As a writer and as a, you know, like, as a dialogue writer, specifically.

14:30
Jim
Yeah, for sure.

14:32
Case
And then with Dan Moore's amazing fucking art, like, just great stuff here.

14:35
Jim
I mean, that's. I mean, you know, Mark Waid is extremely, you know, he knows comics like nobody's business. And, you know, to be able to. He, you know, he was, you know, talk about bring up the Legion again. Right. He was heavily involved in their post Zero Hour reboot because he knew so much about them. Yeah, right. I mean, he didn't. He did some writing, and then he kind of jumped off and let the others handle it. But, you know, he was. He knows these guys inside and out. And so, you know, when you talk about having these, you know, these updated Silver age type stories, he's, like, one of the best people ever to be able to do that.

15:09
Case
Yeah. Like, it's almost quaint for us to, like, try to have, like, a real conversation about this book that isn't just like, Mark Wade's, like, doing a really good job here. Doing. Doing exactly what Mark Wade does. And Dan Mora doing a really good job doing exactly what Dan Mora does.

15:24
Jim
Mark Wade's just gonna. Mark way. Yeah, that's how it is.

15:27
Case
So why don't we hop over to the backup story? Because, like, the villain Naza, like, it's cool. They bring in the Doom Patrol. I love that they have, like, the face off between the smartest guy in the room between Batman and Niles Calder. Like, that. That's great. I love the dynamics of the. Of how the Doom Patrol function. But, like, ultimately, it's like, okay, a great villain is arizing. After 10,000 years, I'm free. It's time to conquer Earth shows up. And then they put them back in the dumpster after with some time travel shenanigans and so forth. But, like, they win is the thing. It's a very concise, like, villain shows up. We spend two issues. Like, he's able to possess people and do stuff, but, like, we beat the villain.

16:09
Case
Then Robin, in the midst of this all, gets lost in a time storm, and then they have to go find him. Which I really appreciate this issue for a bunch of reasons. One, it allows us to do the thing that's always great, which is the, like, crime scene of a character who is lost in time situation. Because he's like, all right, well, how do I, like, get a message to them at this exact moment? So, you know, like, the Doc Brown, like, having the post office, like, take the letter at the end of Back to the Future Part two. Like, that kind of a scene happens here. And that's great. And then Robin is back in the 19th century as a circus performer solving in a detective story.

16:46
Case
And I, like, this is why I, like, really, like, hit like, all of a sudden latched onto the whole Robin being so strong in this book because, like, he's. He's great, but, like, you don't notice him necessarily more so than Supergirl or any other major character in those. The first five issues. But issue six, all of a sudden being a Robin story, I'm like, oh, right. I remember reading Robin backup stories and like, Robin centric stories for Dick Grayson specifically. But he never had, like, his own book the way that, like, Tim Drake did.

17:11
Jim
Right, that was Robin. Yeah, exactly right.

17:13
Case
So, like. So like, we never got to see a detective story with Robin, Dick Grayson the same way, you know, or we got them, but they were backup stories, like I said. Or they were solo outings in Teen Titans or, you know, things like that. Or it was a Batman story that happened to be a Robin centric one, but we didn't get, like, that Dick Grayson book. And here was an issue that was a Dick Grayson issue of him just being Robin, being an amazing detective and also being really in on, like, circus folk and like, talking about, like, you know, with his reverence for, like, this like, performer's lifestyle, which I think is really cool. And it's also a thing that, like, is, you know, a dying art in America, probably the world, but, like, definitely in America.

17:55
Case
And so, like, it's interesting to have this reverence for it and, like, this real appreciation for the people who put so much work into this type of performance. And like I said, it's just a thing from a bygone age that we're nostalgic for and is so core to Robin's identity that it's nice to really let him live in that space again. There's an issue of. Or not an issue. An episode of Young justice, the cartoon show that has a very Robin centric episode where he's dealing with like, a circus thing. And it's like the same basic setup, but it's a great setup. I'm so happy to have that there. And then to have Batman join him as his trapeze partner is so cool. And Superman as a strongman, with Superman being inspired by strong men. Thanks. Wonderful stuff.

18:46
Case
And the fact that Robin is not that Batman shows up and all of a sudden is able to solve the mystery. It's Robin's mystery the whole time. And his Buddies, Batman and Superman.

18:57
Jim
Yeah, he has some backup with them, helping them out. Like, you know, Superman sees the cash under the floor or whatever it was, you know, that just, you know, they just gave him kind of the boost to get the bad guy in the end, you know, so it was always, like you said it was. It was Robin's deal.

19:14
Case
Yeah. So, yeah, just a wonderful issue. And, you know, like, the kind of thing where it showed the range that this book was going to have because, like, doing, like, a solid standalone arc of Superman and Batman, you know, fighting a demon from. That's escaping from. Exactly. Like that kind of thing is child's play for Mark Waid. Like, he's the master at doing those kind of stories. And then to remind us, like, oh, we're gonna get, like, solo stories and we're gonna get, you know, like, it just gives you this, like, hope for, like, what the series would eventually become. And it lived up to that hope. I think that, you know, Jim, you said this is one of the best books that, like, DCs putting out in the last three years. Yeah, yeah, I'm right there with you.

20:01
Jim
Yeah. I mean, think about, like, all the. You mentioned the guest characters that pop in. You're Doom Patrol, obviously. You know, you get the Justice League members here and there. You know, this big face off with, you know, the possessed Hal Jordan. Right. As part of this. But what really kind of blows me away about this is that, you know, of course Mark nails the characters or characterizations, but he's able to find these really inventive ways to use these powers, Right where they're sitting there fighting against Green Lantern, and Superman and Batman merge together.

20:36
Case
Oh, my God. I can't believe I didn't bring that up yet. Oh, my God.

20:39
Jim
That was so wild. I thought that was the coolest thing.

20:42
Case
Talk about some anime bullshit right there. But I can't believe I wasn't even thinking about that until you mentioned it. I was like, oh, my God, that was such a showstopper. Like, Twitter would not shut up about that thing when it happened.

20:57
Jim
Yep, yep. And then, so you have things like that are just kind of. Just these awesome brainstorms. But then you have these weird technology and character moments, like Negative Man, Right. There's that one moment of Negative man where he, like, he absorbs all the. All that. The red crypt energy, or it turns into a red sun so that they can work. I mean, just these, you know, I mean, you think back at their. You think back at the. At those moments, and you're like, yeah, that's an obvious choice to make, but I would never thought of something like that if I were writing this. Right. I mean, Mark has this ability to have these wild ideas that completely make sense in the context of the story.

21:36
Case
Yeah, I mean, spot on. That's exactly, like, 100%. Like, that's always been a thing I've loved about Mark Waid. Side note, Mark Waid is probably my favorite writer to ever write Hal Jordan. He's just always, like, got the exact vibe right for this, like, cocky son of a bitch. I can't help but, like, kind of love in a way that, like, I don't think. I don't. I don't think I've really liked as many people's takes on Hal Jordan. It usually bugs me a little bit.

22:02
Jim
Yeah. Especially what's His Face from Deadpool. His take on Hal Jordan was not.

22:09
Case
That great to just say, well, I mean, like, I would point anyone, if you're curious of, like, why I'm making the statement when we only see him for, like, two panels here. It's important.

22:20
Jmike
Two panels.

22:21
Case
It's important. But look at JLA Year one, and look at the Brave and the Bold, Flash and Green Lantern, those two books by Mark Wade. And I think Barry Kitson's the artist on both. They are very heavily centric on. Well, they're both heavily focused on the relationship of Hal Jordan and Barry Allen. And it's just fantastic stuff with those two characters.

22:42
Jim
And, like, was that, like, around 2005, 2006, that area a little earlier?

22:47
Case
Cause it was like my high school era, so it was like 2000ish. Maybe. Maybe 99, somewhere in that ballpark.

22:54
Jim
Something else to add to the list I got to read.

22:57
Case
Yeah, no, Mark Wade, that's the other thing he did. He did JLA Year one, which was an amazing series about the first year of the Justice League right after they're meeting, initially defeating a bunch of aliens trying to take over the world. Because, again, Mark Wade is really good at this stuff, but it's also just old hat for DC Comics as a whole. So he's really good at doing these sort of, like, flashback, but still feeling. Feeling current and feeling, you know, like, the characters are updated takes on the Silver Age molds for these characters. He's just really good at doing those. And this book is. Is that. And it continues being great. Like, we're only talking about the first six issues today, but, like, the series continues to be really solid.

23:40
Jim
So here's something else I wanted to Point out here, too. And this kind of talking about, you know, revisiting old themes and stuff like that, I think in a weird way, I kind of think Wade was kind of revisit his own stuff and do it a little bit better here. So in this particular arc, right, the Devil Neza is kind of taking one of the aspects of it. They're taking kind of these B tier villains, and they're getting amped up.

24:09
Case
Right.

24:10
Jim
As part of this trap to give for his world domination thing. When I was reading this time.

24:16
Case
Oh, were you thinking of Underworld Unleashed?

24:17
Jim
Yeah.

24:20
Case
I thought about that too, actually, when I was reading it, and I'm glad you mentioned it, because I wasn't thinking about that now. No, that makes a lot of sense, especially considering that the next arc of this book is then, like, him looking at his kingdom come era.

24:32
Jim
Yeah, exactly. Right.

24:34
Case
But very subtly, which I think. I mean, at least it opens very subtly. It does not end very subtly.

24:40
Jim
Not at all.

24:41
Case
Not at all.

24:42
Jim
But that popped. This did not occur to me the first time I read stories, but when I was rereading this last week to prep here, I'm like, this is just like what Underworld Unleashed was doing, but it's doing it way better. Because I don't think highly of that particular crossover event because that's when, you know, in the 90s, when there's always some kind of weird summer crossover event. And this one, I wasn't a big fan of that one.

25:08
Case
I had warm feelings about that one mostly because, like, the ultimate hero of it was Captain Marvel. And, like, that's always going to be, like, a soft spot for me. It heavily centric. It was. It heavily centered on Alan Scott and Captain Marvel as, like, protagonists of the series. And like, that. That's always going to be like, my, like, oh, yeah. Fuck, yeah, I'm here for it.

25:29
Jim
Yeah, yeah.

25:30
Case
But I hear what you're saying because, like, the redesigns for a lot of those characters were, like, kind of hard to swallow.

25:36
Jim
Some.

25:36
Case
Some were fine. Some were actually pretty good. But, like, it was. It was a lot to, like, throw at the DC universe.

25:41
Jim
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and you know, these are BT B. Your C tier villains for a reason, right?

25:48
Jmike
Is he a B tier? I don't know if he's a B tier. He might be a D tier.

25:53
Jim
Yeah, exactly. You're like, I don't care that this guy has superpower or even more superpowers now. You know, I'm like, okay, whatever. But it was what it was. It led to some Interesting things here and there across the. The DCU at the time.

26:04
Jmike
Also, did they get the Flash out of the mirror dimension? Because they kind of glossed over that. Yeah, that's a good.

26:10
Jim
You know what? They kind of did just kind of gloss over.

26:13
Case
I mean, they must have.

26:14
Jmike
But he was like, oh, no. Flash stop. And then he gets trapped in the dimension, and then Mirror Master chases Clark around with mirrors, and then that's it. Like, you never see the Flash again. And I was like, wait.

26:28
Jim
Yeah, right. That's a really good point, J. Mike. And another one, too, that was a lot similar to that was in the first book. The first issue when it's Metallo and Poison Ivy are kind of the two rabble routes of the main part of the story. You know, at the end, they get to this point where like, oh, just let the cops handle these guys, you know? You're just gonna let the cops handle Poison Ivy? I mean, come on. You know? Yeah, they're good, but you got to move on the plot, so I get it. Right?

26:57
Case
Yeah. I mean, like, the argument was that there were big. I guess with Poison Ivy, it's just. I don't know.

27:05
Jmike
I mean, by that point, I think Batman had poisoned her or like, he'd use the weed be gone on her. So she was kind of neutralized.

27:14
Jim
Yeah, I guess so. But you never know when she's going to wake up and all that stuff. Yeah, it was just kind of a little. Okay, let's move on real quick. Let's go.

27:23
Jmike
Yeah, also, did they get Wonder Woman back to normal because she was Clay.

27:27
Jim
Oh, I'm sure. You know, pay no attention to the.

27:31
Case
Yeah, clearly they fix the things after it. I mean, like, maybe you could argue that once the Devil Neza is, like, imprisoned again, all the machinations he did was reverted or something.

27:42
Jmike
Yeah, I mean, we hope.

27:45
Case
Clearly we know she got better. We just don't know the details of how. Yeah, but I feel like once you defeat, like, the. Well, and also the power that was in Felix Faust was because of the devil Nezha. So, like. Yeah, like, once he's imprisoned, it probably did negate those powers that was doing the things.

28:08
Jim
Yeah, yeah, no, I think so too.

28:10
Case
Yeah.

28:10
Jim
That's just how, you know, I guess that's what the reader is supposed to assume.

28:14
Case
Yeah, I mean, because clearly, also, then Billy Batson, like, has a mouth again.

28:18
Jim
Yeah, exactly. As soon as they. They kind of knock out mind manipulation.

28:27
Case
It's concentration mechanics from D and D. Right, right. Yeah. So, like, that. That's the Thing, though, I find myself just, like, wanting to just be like, man, this book's so good. I don't have, like, other great notes to, like, discuss about it. It's just like, oh, yeah, no, this was really good.

28:42
Jmike
Okay, so I had questions. First one was, like, in the beginning of the book, Lois comes. She. She mentions Clark, like, the first. The first page, and then she comes out on the rooftop and she's like, going over all this stuff about Superman. But is it at a point where she doesn't know Clark is Superman?

28:58
Jim
That is my understanding.

28:59
Case
But, yeah. My understanding based on the time when this occurs.

29:02
Jmike
Yeah, I was like, she's. She's doing all this stuff, like, she just knows about Superman and not Clark.

29:07
Jim
Yeah. I think the way that I kind of. This is more just because of what I know from DC history. The Superman reveal, where, you know, he basically tells Lois that, you know, who he is. That does not happen until Robin is on his own in his Nightwing. At least in the past of the DC universe. Right. So my shorthand is, okay, this is Dick Grayson, Robin, you know, he's not the brand new recruit partner, but. So he's somewhere in his mid teens, probably 16 years old, probably. So this is well before, you know, Jason Todd and Tim Drake and all that kind of stuff. When. When they did all that stuff. So that was just my internal shorthand for that.

29:49
Case
Yeah. I mean, this is clearly supposed to be a Silver Age time period. So you figure that the relationships are kind of, like, set at that point.

29:56
Jim
Yeah, yeah.

29:58
Case
So I did want to. We talked about the negative man turning, like, changing his energy field to be red solar energy to weaken Superman. We actually didn't talk about why. And I do think that it was a really creative attack on him having, like, the injection of red kryptonite molecules. I thought that was a very fun way of introducing this idea that he's, like, rapidly changing and, like, hallucinating and just like all these things are happening to him simultaneously and they're all bad. Yeah.

30:28
Jim
And, you know, when I was reading this, too, I was thinking about, like, before we started talking, were talking a little bit about my adventures with Superman. Right. You know, those similar things like, that are touched on in. In. In the cartoon, right? Where you have. It's usually. It's not so much, you know, in. In the real. In the reality. Right. But the whole concept of, you know, what. What Amanda Waller is doing and, you know, and the Brainiac role in that story and kind of say, hey, you're a Menace to the world. Right. I was very much. And this is obviously just because I've just recently watched the show. It really reminded me of that particular moment.

31:06
Jmike
So good.

31:08
Jim
So good. I know.

31:13
Jmike
Yeah.

31:13
Case
I'm just, like, scrolling through now looking for, like, other things that are like, oh, this was also really dope.

31:17
Jim
Yeah. Well, you know, because we talked about kind of the shorthand that Wade and Maura both use as part of this. Right. This was another thing that I really liked about the book was that they didn't waste too much time with Superman and Batman in dialogue, saying, you know, hey, you're my best friend now. Right. That kind of thing. It was just very quick flashbacks or just dialogue moments that really illustrated the relationship that Superman and Batman have. Yeah.

31:48
Case
When Superman is down because of the injection of the red kryptonite and there's a shot of Batman just like. Like, it cuts to a fight with Mongol and it's just like, oh, yeah, like they've been through thick and thin together.

31:59
Jim
Exactly, exactly. But it's like we don't even beat them over the head with it, you know, which is great. I mean, it keeps the story snappy. You get some really cool visuals as part of it. Right. It's, you know, it's. It's a great comic book writer.

32:12
Case
Yeah. Speaking of great comic book writer, one thing that I want to bring up that I thought was, like, really nice, just as a quick moment, and by nice, I mean fucking sad, was General Immortus.

32:22
Jim
Yeah.

32:23
Case
Like being this, you know, immortal with Alzheimer's.

32:26
Jmike
Oh, yeah, yeah.

32:29
Case
Like, man, that gave me the feels right there very quickly. It's wonderful. Again, wonderful shorthand to get you to feel a lot of things throughout this whole thing. And then it cuts to, you know, they're like Kung Fu Sentai Team Fight. This book again, contains multitudes.

32:49
Jim
Yes.

32:49
Case
Yeah.

32:50
Jim
And then I. The other thing I want to make sure that I. That I mentioned because I made a. This is one of the biggest bullets on my. On my notes here is just talk about just Dan Mora's art because it's, you know, super effective. It's just, you know, it's great visual storytelling. Very dynamic.

33:07
Jmike
Yeah.

33:08
Jim
You know, and it's easy to figure out what the hell's going on. It's just super well done. But what I. And this is another thing that popped into my head reading this time versus just reading the series over the last few years is that I got big time Norm Breyfogle vibes from his style. Just from the way it's angular yet fluid, if that makes any sense. That that's because, you know, I came to Superman through Batman basically because I started reading comics seriously after the, you know, the first. The Keaton Batman movie. And then at that point in time. Right. Batman, Detective comics. Breyfogle was the primary artist on Detective. And, you know, he has. He has a very.

33:53
Jim
Had a very distinct style with his drawing of Batman and that very, you know, these swooping, you know, almost borderline nightmarish, you know, visions of, you know, of Batman with these swooping pointed capes and cowls and everything. And this Mora's art style here really reminded me of that while I was kind of going through here.

34:19
Case
Yeah. I was like, trying to, like, picture it. And so I've, like, looked up a bunch of stuff and, like, I definitely see what you're talking about here.

34:25
Jim
Yeah.

34:26
Case
Oh, yeah, yeah. You can definitely see some, like, influences there.

34:30
Jim
Yeah, no, for sure.

34:31
Jmike
It's fucking beautiful though, I'll tell you that. His art style is amazing.

34:35
Jim
Yeah. Yeah.

34:38
Jmike
Okay, before I forget, I was laughing because I read it. I read it twice to make sure I read it correctly. The Batman Superman fusion thing. And I was like, this is totally a DBZ callback because they're doing it without the fusion dance, but they're using the Patal ring by way of the Green Lantern ring.

35:02
Case
Yeah.

35:04
Jmike
I was like, wait a second. I ran it back again. I was like, oh, you cheeky bastards. I see what you did here.

35:11
Case
Yeah. No, it's certainly a potara ring or earring kind of version of it. Because we get the costumes being fused together.

35:18
Jim
Yeah.

35:19
Jmike
And you can have the countdown for how much longer they have.

35:22
Case
Right.

35:22
Jmike
I was like, I hate you guys so much, but this is beautiful.

35:31
Case
Yeah. The fusion of Superman, Batman and Green Lantern's powers. You gotta, like, keep that one in.

35:37
Jmike
There because, like, certain and certain, when he's using the power. When they're using the powers, like, some of the accents in the suit turn green too, I guess. Hands are green at certain points now. I was like, oh, this is awesome.

35:48
Jim
Yeah.

35:49
Jmike
It's also funny. They just wield the ring off of hall, which I didn't know.

35:54
Case
Well, that's actually happened. Yeah. That has usually happened in reverse where Hal has used his willpower to override someone else who's taken the ring. But it has occurred where there's been, like, will offs with rings like that. And that's the whole reason why it's like the sternest will power people are the ones with the rings because then you can't do it to them.

36:13
Jim
I never have one. I never get one.

36:15
Case
No, it's like, what are your thoughts about late night snacks.

36:22
Jim
Exactly?

36:24
Case
Oh, I love them. You can't use a word.

36:26
Jmike
Oh, no. My one weakness. Yes.

36:31
Case
Your lack of willpower in general. Yeah. Man. It is wild, though, that now that we're getting into this whole conversation and like, I didn't like, normally, I don't need to really prepare a lot of notes for the conversations just because I usually have big bullet points I want to bring up. And it's usually a fun conversation. This one is so much. The sum of its parts are so strong. And maybe it might almost be the parts are stronger than the summation. Because the summation. I'm just like, man, this is a great book with a cool bottle episode story and then some time travel shenanigans. Yeah, man. But it is fascinating to look at how every page has something that's really good going on for it. And it almost becomes a noise of all, like, all this good. And it almost.

37:22
Case
It really benefits, like, slow down and actually, like, stop and observe, like page by page and not look at. In like, the broad context.

37:28
Jim
Yeah, that's an interesting point. I mean, on this reread, I was kind of struck how. I guess the first couple issues are good. Yeah, they're good establishment. Okay. They're kind of getting. Setting the tone of what they're. Of the stories. Right. Of how they're going to be doing this. But I was like, okay, this is kind of cool. Kind of like what you're saying, but about somewhere in. It was probably issue four. Yeah. It was sometime probably around when they had that. The fusion. And then on from there, I started. I was like, I need to find out what happens next. Right. And then, of course, because they started ending the issues with these really great cliffhangers. And then I was like, I gotta get to the next book.

38:07
Jim
You know, and then, you know, the end of the main story with Robin still being missing, you're like, okay, I gotta find out what happens to Rob now. Right. You know, so. And then, of course. And then, you know, the series builds off of that because, you know, like, we kind of mentioned before we go into that Kingdom Come kind of story. Right. And then from there, it just. It just keeps on building onto itself to be the point where. And where I really got addicted to the story. This is why I think it's the best book in DC's catalog right now. Just because I need to find out what Happens next. That's the best mark of a storyteller right there.

38:39
Case
Yeah, like, there is a nice, like, breath that you can take at the end of issue six. So it's not true. Like, serial storytelling where there's, like, the end of one arc has, like, the teaser for the next arc. It's not always like that, but at least mid arc, you're just like, oh, yeah, there's a cliffhanger for that. Oh, there's a cliffhanger for that. Another classic Mark Waid thing. I mean, if anyone ever read His Impulse Run, knows that, man, he loves fun cliffhangers.

39:07
Jmike
Oh, absolutely.

39:08
Jim
Absolutely.

39:09
Case
Sometimes literally. Sometimes a Corvette going over the cliff.

39:15
Jim
Yeah, I mean, issue six does really resolve the first arc completely, right? Because. But I think there is a teaser at the end of it about the next issue, right. And there's kind of that hint that it's something to do with. From a kingdom come standpoint, I think.

39:31
Case
Was it so much a teaser or just that the. Hang on, because issue five has the Lazarus world or whatever.

39:40
Jim
Yeah, it was the story that would go into Batman vs. Robin, which actually was a pretty good book. I really actually enjoyed that.

39:50
Case
I think it might have just been the next issue thing. Either way, this is just a very solid book, and it's one that I think that people should check out. In general. It continues to be great. Well continued as far as I've read up to, but apparently is continuing with this team, so continues to be great. I feel confident in saying that. So I should note that I've read probably like 10 issues after this and that somewhere in there is where I like. It's getting hazy, but I read through all through the next major arc and love it, and it's a really fun book, and I think people should check it out. And if you're worried about digging into an ongoing series, the first six issues, like we said, have like, a really good, like, pause point after.

40:36
Case
After you're done there, and you can just be like, cool, or this was fine, or this was great, or this wasn't. You know, if you don't want to continue, don't worry about it. But I would say check. Check out the first six issues. It runs through very nicely. It keeps you moving. Like I said, each page has, like, a lot going for it. There's, like, really fun, like, concepts and ideas going on all over the place with gorgeous art and one that I think really appreciates, like, that deeper read. But if you just want to read through it quickly, it's very breezy. At the same time. So I would highly recommend it. I don't know. Jim, do you have anything else you want to say about the book?

41:13
Jim
Oh, geez. That I haven't already. I mean, again, I mean, I feel like I've been doing nothing but gush on this. On this title for the entire conversation here. Because it really is that great. I mean, anything that we come up with that we're kind of maybe nitpicking are literally just. Just picking this right? There is very little that is bad about these titles, but, I mean, it's really good. It really delves into a lot of the. Kind of the really neat little nuggets of the DC universe. Like a further arc that goes after the Kingdom Come one is all about Simon Stagg and Morpho and all that kind of stuff. And we even get kind of a true visit to the Kingdom Come universe in another issue. And you kind of understand how he's playing from a multiverse perspective with all of this.

42:04
Jim
And so it's just all. It's all really great. I mean, I can't say enough about this. That's great.

42:10
Case
Yeah. J, Mike, how about you? Anything that we missed?

42:13
Jmike
No, I'm just kind of. Like you said earlier, the sign of a good book is you wanted to read more. And I'm like, this is freaking awesome. I want to keep reading. It's really good to see you never really get a chance to see Batman and Superman working together as good friends because everyone's like, oh, who would win? Batman or Superman? It's obviously Superman, but that's beside the point. Anyway, it's good to see Martha. It's always good to see them, like, on, like, as being the best friends they. They always are. And, like, it's always, like, during this particular run, Batman is the one who is always, like, he's the more emotional one here. And, like, something goes wrong and he's like, oh, you gotta save him. He's going through rough time. Blah, blah. He's like, he's being very emotional.

43:03
Jmike
You never get a chance to see Batman do that. Like when he gets stabbed with the kryptonite, Batman's, like, freaking out. When Superman gets locked behind the door, Batman's the one, like, freaking out, like, oh, he can't be gone. I gotta figure out a way to save him. But he's also the one that figures out that there's a hole to the Phantom Zone that's, like, closing. And he's the only one who notices that. And Superman's like, Took you long enough. Oh, God. That dynamic is always really good to see between these two. And it's always a fun ride when it's done correctly. And this time, it's done freaking awesome.

43:39
Case
This is fair. We actually haven't gushed that much about the specific takes on Superman or Batman in this. And I think that you bring up a great point that Batman has what our friend June has described as weird poet energy in this, where it's like, oh, yeah, it's the Grant Morrison using being Batman as therapy kind of take. And I think that they do a really good job of having this be a Batman who is much better balanced than a lot of times. And part of that is because of the healthy relationships he has with Robin and with Superman. So this is like, this is a good Batman. Like, this is a Batman who is in a good place. He is channeling his past traumas in a positive way.

44:20
Case
It feels like here, as opposed to a destructive way, which is sometimes how Batman is depicted.

44:25
Jmike
Why did you say that name?

44:27
Case
Well, you know, when it's like that level of a crusade, that it's just like.

44:30
Jmike
Because when they. When they get trapped in hell, quote unquote, Batman's freaking out. Clark is the calm mind person.

44:37
Case
Yeah, absolutely.

44:40
Jmike
Batman is completely off his rocker. And, like, he's like, oh, God, my parents. And like, Faust is playing with his mind and everything. And Superman is, like, quiet and calm and collected, and he figures out this. It's an illusion, which is something that you'd never think Clark would be doing. You figured it'd be reversed.

44:57
Case
Yeah, but, I mean, it's good to have both of them be smart, but in different ways in this, and they have different assets there. And that was really good. And, like, the Superman is also a really good take. You know, it is a Silver age style Superman who is competent and capable, but also compassionate and, you know, kind. And I'm running out of, you know, CK sounds to say that.

45:20
Jim
Those are just great points, though. And J. Mike, that was. Is just a perfect summary about. I think one of the other reasons that I like this so much, because I'm on record about saying that comics and comic book movies, especially over the last 20 and probably even more years, are just. They're just way too dark. You know what I mean? It's like, I guess there's a time and a place for that kind of stuff, right? But I kind of think that we've gone in the last 20 years, especially, you know, with the Snyderverse. You know, it's this really Dark and kind of downer world, especially vis a vis Superman, right? And these stories, especially where we are kind of now generally like my Superman, you got this. You have the Lois and Superman that are very, you know, they have their.

46:16
Jim
Obviously they have their drama in the story, but Superman as a character, as a person is upbeat, positive, competent, you know, and the story itself is. You know, I don't feel like, you know, I'm in a depression after I finish reading this story. So I really appreciate that because that's why I read comic books to begin with, right? Because I want to be told a great story where, you know, the good guys and bad guys and the good guys kick the bad guy's ass after some, you know, some drama and some story. And this really encapsulates all of that for real.

46:53
Case
Well, I think that we've covered a lot of what we want to say. I realize this is. I have said this now multiple times where I was like, man, what else is there to say? And then it's like, oh, there's actually way more. But I feel like we're in a good place. We've talked about our leads. We've talked about most of the beats of all the different stories at different points. We talked about the things that we really like that are outside of that and the moments that really affected us. So, yeah, I feel like we've through the entire book pretty effectively right now.

47:24
Jim
Because it's a great.

47:24
Case
Yeah, it's a great book like that. That's the thing I'm going to keep on coming back to. It's like, it's just really well written. It's beautiful art, and the dialogue is crisp and the story moves, but at the same time has, like, some really, like, nice things in there for people who really dig, like, DC continuity or DC lore. So, yeah, it's a really solid book that you should all check out, if you haven't already, and if you haven't and listened to this whole episode. Cool. I'm really glad that we actually have people like you who are willing to listen to us talk for an hour about a comic you haven't actually read, when we most of the time, are just being like, yeah, it's really good. Yeah, it's really good. Yeah, it's really good. So, Jim, thank you for coming on.

48:02
Case
Thank you for suggesting this book, actually.

48:05
Jim
Oh, absolutely. I mean, were kind of brainstorming, and I'm like, what's really good? And this popped into my head. I'm like, we got to talk about this. It's such a good book. Yeah.

48:13
Case
And it's wild that we hadn't really, like looked at it on this show. So, like, you know, like I said, we're probably not going to be able to like, cover like, unless there's like another major arc that we feel like is like really important for us to talk about just because there's so much Superman media for us to talk about. Again, we're eating, but like, for those of us who have to, like, describe the meal, it's a lot. But. So, Jim, thank you again for coming back on. Where can people find you? Follow you? What have you got going on for.

48:42
Jim
Sure so people can find me? I'm on Twitter. I refuse to call it X and bluesky. I'm imbo87fet87 and I also have a blog where I'm. Right now I'm going through the legion of superheroes version five three boot continuity. And that's Jimbo's legion.blogspot.com I'm currently. I just released my review on issue 29, which is right before Mark Waid jumps off of this title because of D.C. Editorial shenanigans. But that's a whole other story.

49:17
Case
Yeah, you have done wonderful write ups on these issues. It's really fun seeing your insight on the various stories, even when we don't always necessarily agree. Since I'm an apologist for the DNA run, which I know that. A little bit harsher, huh?

49:32
Jim
Well, that's why, you know, this is comic books. It's fun to talk about all this.

49:35
Case
Stuff, you know, and it's nice that we can have different opinions and still have like a really good time just gushing about a book sometimes. Yeah. No, people should check out your write ups. Like it's. You have wonderful insight. Like I said, even if I don't agree, I do appreciate the thought that you put into each issue that you're looking at.

49:53
Jim
I try to be, I try to, I do try to be fair about what I'm looking at. The end of the day, even the DNA stuff, I mean, I actually do give it a pretty fair shake. So it ends up coming out. Not too bad.

50:06
Case
Yeah. Yeah. No, and I'm not trying to paint you as a hater. I just. You have more critiques than my rosy view of it all. Now, J Mike, where can people find you and follow you?

50:19
Jmike
Oh, God. You can find me on Twitter @J Mike101. I occasionally say things, I respond to things sometimes, but hit me up. I'll be glad to send you a meme.

50:33
Case
Well, your meme game is always on points, my friend.

50:36
Jmike
I try.

50:38
Case
As for me, you can find me on most of the platforms at caseakin except for Instagram where I am quetzalcoatl5 because I am a Legion of Superheroes fan and that's where we get the five. And I was also a pretentious mythology nerd in high school and that's where we get the Quetzalcoatl. So you can find me on Instagram @quetzalcoatl 5. You can find the show on Twitter enofsteelpod. You can find the episodes that we put out anywhere where you get podcasts or on our YouTube channel where we have a bunch of other content up there including my Superman analog videos. Check those out if you haven't checked them already. They're fun, quick descriptions of superman type characters roughly 5ish minutes long each. So they're pretty quick and they're fun. And yeah, that I think covers all the things. Thank you for listening everyone.

51:25
Case
Oh our Discord. Find our Discord server. Man, I am just on this slow game today. Yeah, check out our Discord where we could have fun conversations about the episodes or various topics. There's been lively conversations going on because it's SDCC when we're recording this and so the comic book chat is going nuts right now. So check that all out. It's wonderful discourse and we'd love to have you there. And otherwise. Until next time, stay Super Man.

52:00
Jmike
Men of Steel is a certain POV production. Our host are J. Mike Folson and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sophia Ricciardi. Our logo is by Chris Batista and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our theme is by Jeff Moonan.

52:26
Speaker 4
Are you tired of watching your beloved characters being tortured by careless authors? Are you sick of feeling like they could have sworn swapped out all of the painful action and the plot would remain untouched? Subscribe to Books that Burn, the Fortnightly Book Review podcast focusing on fictional depictions of trauma. We assume that the characters reactions are reasonable and focus on how badly or well they were served by their authors. Join us for our minor character spotlights, main character discussions, and favorite non traumatic things in the dark books we love. Find us on Spotify, itunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcast tests.

52:59
Case
CPOV certainpov.