The back half of the classic Superman shorts suffered from a drop in budget and a restructuring of the studio working on it. To look at these lesser cousins to the stellar Fleischer Studios Superman cartoons, Anthony Desiato (Digging For Kryptonite podcast) joins Case and Jmike for a conversation on the less notable but still... Famous... Superman shorts.

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Meeting summary:

●      The meeting discussed the portrayal of racial stereotypes in the 1940s Superman serials produced by Famous Studios, with a focus on episodes such as 'Japateurs' and 'Jungle Drums'. The transition from Fleischer Studios was examined, as well as analysis of animation quality differences. The influence of World War II, espionage themes, fantasy elements, exotic settings, and patriotism in the serials were also explored. The meeting concluded with a promotion of the guest's podcasts and final thoughts on the impact of the Superman serials. Action items included reviewing racial stereotypes, evaluating animation quality, and compiling a list of top Superman serials for new viewers.

Notes:

●      🎬 Introduction and Context (00:00 - 04:02)

●      Discussion on the portrayal of racial stereotypes in the 1940s Superman serials.

●      Introduction of guest Anthony Desiato from the Digging for Kryptonite podcast.

●      Overview of the transition from Fleischer Studios to Famous Studios.

●      🦸‍♂️ Superman Serials Analysis (04:02 - 19:29)

●      Discussion on the first episode 'Japateurs' and its problematic portrayal of Japanese characters.

●      Comparison of Fleischer and Famous Studios animation quality.

●      Analysis of the episode 'Showdown' featuring a Superman impersonator.

●      💥 World War II Influence (19:29 - 28:58)

●      Discussion on 'The 11th Hour' and its depiction of Superman as a saboteur in Japan.

●      Examination of the espionage themes in the serials.

●      Analysis of 'Destruction, Inc.' and its plot involving factory sabotage.

●      🧟‍♂️ Fantasy Elements (28:59 - 37:57)

●      Analysis of 'The Mummy Strikes' and its depiction of ancient Egypt.

●      Discussion on the supernatural and fantasy elements in the serials.

●      Comparison of 'The Mummy Strikes' to other fantasy-themed episodes.

●      🌍 Exotic Settings (37:57 - 46:18)

●      Discussion on 'Jungle Drums' and its portrayal of African characters.

●      Analysis of the episode 'The Underground World' featuring bird people.

●      Examination of the exotic and fantastical settings in the serials.

●      🕵️‍♂️ Espionage and Patriotism (46:19 - 56:30)

●      Analysis of 'The Secret Agent' and its espionage plot.

●      Discussion on the patriotic themes in the serials.

●      Comparison of 'The Secret Agent' to other espionage-themed episodes.

●      🎙️ Podcast Promotion and Conclusion (56:30 - 01:06:21)

●      Promotion of Anthony Desiato's podcasts 'Digging for Kryptonite' and 'Another Exciting Episode in the Adventures of Superman'.

●      Discussion on the historical context and impact of the Superman serials.

●      Conclusion and final thoughts on the Famous Studios Superman serials.

Transcription

00:00
Case
Before we get started, is there any, like, aside from just the rampant racism and everything of this, any sort of, like, weird takes that people want to, like, get out before they, like, blindside anyone?

00:10
Anthony
No. For me, I think that's the. That's the headline. I don't think I had anything else so out there.

00:15
Case
Yeah.

00:15
Jmike
I was not expecting the clan to show up in Africa, though. That was pretty funny.

00:35
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the men of Steel podcast. I'm case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, J. Mike Folson.

00:41
Jmike
Hey, hey. Welcome back, everybody.

00:45
Case
Hey, j Mike, can I ask you a question? What is faster than a streak of lightning, more powerful than the pounding surf, mightier than the roaring hurricane?

00:57
Jmike
I'll take a Superman for 300, Alex.

01:00
Case
Yes, but not just any Superman. A famous superman. That's right. Today, we are continuing our conversation of the 1940s Superman serials, and for that conversation, we are joined by Anthony Desiato from the digging for kryptonite podcast.

01:15
Anthony
Hey, guys. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Yeah.

01:18
Case
Anthony, I'm so glad to finally get you on. I've been on your show before, but we've only crossed paths a few times so far. But as a fellow Superman podcaster, I have a deep amount of respect for you.

01:28
Anthony
Likewise. No, that's been one of the best things about becoming a Superman podcaster is connecting with so many folks like yourself. And I was saying off mic, this was a great opportunity to bust out the Fleischer Blu ray set once more and revisit, in this case, the second half of serials. And I'm excited to talk about them.

01:47
Case
Yeah, yeah. I mean, so we've already talked about the Fleischer run, the first nine episodes of those serials. And so today we're talking about the second batch, which is different. It's different. They're less well known. You know, like, I think everyone has seen the Superman versus the mad scientist, like, probably a thousand times, because it's just on, and it's short, and it's, like, you know, iconic. And the shot of Superman, like, shoving the building over is such a thing. And the mechanical monsters are, you know, likewise, like, super iconic. We talked recently on my other podcast about Sky Captain and the world of tomorrow, and it's just, like, almost straight up. Those exact mechs are just, like, stolen right out of it. But talking about the second batch after the Fleischer studios switched over to Famo studios, these are a little more complicated.

02:34
Case
And just saying the name of the first one, I feel like I'm gonna get demonetized.

02:39
Jmike
I like that we keep calling them the second batch. Those other episodes, you know, they're a thing.

02:46
Case
Well, I mean, like, I will say this. So before we even get into the individual sort of breakdown, they do stand out individually a lot more. Like, when were talking about the Fleischer ones, it did sort of get to a point where it was like yet another mad scientist doing yet another thing from a secret hideout overlooking the city seemed to be sort of the routine of several of them. At least this one is different. Even the two that I would say are probably the most similar are actually from opposite perspectives, so at least there's that going for them.

03:15
Anthony
Yeah, that's totally fair. I mean, and I commend you guys for splitting them apart like this when I cover these on my podcast. We did all of them together, though. We recognized the difference between Fleischer and famous, and we did talk about those distinctions. But it is one of those things where I think there are a lot of folks who really just kind of conflate all of these episodes together. And then you have folks who are more knowledgeable about this and will be quick to point out that the first nine were from Fleischer and then the remaining eight were from Famoz. And, yeah, I mean, there definitely are major differences that are worth talking about. And so kind of carving them out in this way, I think, is cool.

03:47
Case
I mean, so we should note. So the reason why we're saying that it's two different studios is that Fleischer basically changed into, it was, like, renamed and sort of reorganized as famous studios after the fact. But there's, like, a clear difference in production between them as well. And I think for a lot of people, like you said, they conflate them together on macro because it's just like, oh, well, there's 17 of these, and they all look pretty similar. It's the same, you know, it's using the voice actors from the radio for the most part. There's a lot of random lines where a character will say something and you're like, that's a different person. Including Clark, which is kind of a funny one in there. But, Anthony, we talked a bit about our history with these on the last episode.

04:28
Case
But what is your history with these shows? You mentioned that you covered them on your podcast.

04:32
Anthony
Well, it's funny, because when you were talking about the mechanical monster or the mad scientist, the ones that are kind of the heavy hitters that most people know, that's kind of all I knew for a large part of my Superman fan journey, I would watch one or two of the Fleischer shorts and say, man, these are gorgeous and amazing and I really gotta sit down and watch all of them. And then it would just never happen. So there were multiple times where I would watch a couple and then that was as far as I got. But not too long ago, when Warner brothers put out their restored Blu ray set of all 17, I picked that up and that's what we did our episode about. And that forced me to really sit down and pore over all of them.

05:13
Anthony
So to be honest, I've only watched all of them all the way through once and now a second time for this episode. But it was one of those things where when I finally did sit down and go through all of them, I'm like, oh, man, I wish I had done this sooner. They were great. And it's just, I'm sure you guys talked about this, but it's just astounding just how gorgeous and fluid and dynamic that animation was when you consider the time period and how far advanced it was compared to what we would get in subsequent decades. So they're really just gorgeous and well worth watching. And they do go by very quickly since they're so short. So I'm glad that I finally invested the time as I should have earlier.

05:50
Case
Yeah, especially with the Blu ray, because they are so gorgeous. And you can find the high def versions of these episodes just on YouTube if you search. But, Mandy, is there anything else on the Blu ray? Because I've got it on DVD, but I don't have the Blu ray set. Are there any other special features or anything that go along with it, or is it just the 17 episodes?

06:08
Anthony
There are a couple of featurettes. I think one had been released on something else at some point and one is new to this. I watched them when they first came out. Are they worth buying the Blu ray for that alone? I don't know. Maybe not. But hand in hand with the restored versions of the shorts, I think it's worthwhile. Although I know that Blu ray restoration was controversial because you lost a lot of the grain that a lot of the cinephiles like to see. So a bit of controversy over that. But I liked it. They were nice and clean and crisp and I enjoyed watching them.

06:38
Case
And the upside is, like, the other version still exists and in fact, the other version is easily accessible because all of these are in the public domain. So you are able to just release them on whatever I have bought them on DVD twice now, and then realized that I had bought them, like, different packaging for the two. You know, I would say that the biggest reason to buy it is the physical media side of it. Like, just to be a collector and to appreciate and support and have access to these things in a way that is always a little fluid and a little flexible. When we're talking about not owning the media itself, like, right now, you can just easily find it. But who's to say that won't change under some rule change with YouTube or some other guideline change?

07:16
Anthony
No, 100%. I mean, when it's Superman or Superman related, more often than not, I want to make sure I have a copy on my shelf. And I do believe in voting with your wallet. And there are things that are long overdue for a release or a release. And so when there's an opportunity to kind of show support in a tangible way, for something minimal though it might be, but just to kind of show, like, hey, there's interest, there's an audience for this. I always like to participate and encourage people to do. There are things I would really love to see. Get a beautifully restored Blu ray set. So we'll see.

07:46
Case
Yeah, well, why don't we actually dig into the individual episodes? I'm pretty sure I'm going to get us demonetized by reading the name of the first one. So the first one is the Japateurs, a portmanteau of saboteurs, and the Japanese. And at this point, we should probably note that we are well into World War two at this point.

08:07
Anthony
Very much so, yeah.

08:08
Case
So this one's hard to watch, I think is a fair way to describe it. I will say it is interesting to now be digging into, like, okay, the war is going on. These are the pressures of the world. And, like, trying to play up how is Superman relating to a thing that at this point, the audience is very much, like, thinking about? That said, it's fairly racist caricatures.

08:34
Anthony
I.

08:34
Jmike
Don'T think fairly explains it enough.

08:38
Case
So reactions. J Mike, you came on hot when we first got on the call before we started recording, what was your reaction to watching this?

08:45
Jmike
Well, I mean, we talked about it in the last episode. We were like, oh, yeah, okay. It goes off the rails after a certain point. I was like, cool, it can't be that bad. You know, it's just 19. Forty's cartoons. I was like, oh, this is how it is. I was not expecting the caricatures and, like, that kind of stuff to come off so fast that early. Try not to get us canceled here.

09:11
Case
Right.

09:13
Jmike
It's a little rough. A little very rough with like, their accents and how they look and they're portrayed with their, like, their facial features and things.

09:21
Case
Yeah. For me, what surprised me the most about this look, there's all the world War two propaganda superman stuff from the era, like the slap a Jap cover and stuff like that were coming out at the time. Because in addition to the war being full of propaganda that was already like in full swing. In full swing, the racist elements of it for specifically the Japanese in the war, it can't go overstated. Like, there was so much going on in the US. And I would say that these are the ones that really push that truth, justice and the american way element of Superman in a bad light. But I will say that the other thing about these as a whole, but especially this one, this was the first one I watched in the order because it's the first one of the sequence.

10:03
Case
This batch has a lot of Superman shows up at the very end and then it's very quick falling action from the point where he sort of arrives in a way that the earlier ones, I mean, Superman is kind of a. Defeats all problems anyway. But it was very notable with this one also. This is one where Superman seems to be flying more than jumping. And it kind of goes back and forth during this whole batch of episodes.

10:24
Jmike
Yeah, it does.

10:25
Case
Anthony, how about you? Any sort of, like, particular responses?

10:27
Anthony
I mean, I guess I had the quote unquote benefit, if you want to call it that, of not being surprised because I spent time with these not too long ago. So I knew what I was getting myself into and rewatching these famous shorts. And yeah, when we're talking about the depiction of japanese people in this one and another short. And then when we get to the jungle drums later on, the depiction of certain racial groups. They're racist, to put it mildly. These people are depicted as subhuman. That's the way they come across on screen. And it's very ugly and it's tough to stomach. You recognize it's a product of the time. The Blu ray, interestingly, has a disclaimer in front of those particular shorts.

11:02
Jmike
Oh, really?

11:03
Case
Yeah.

11:03
Anthony
Essentially saying that they play into stereotypes of the time. Time. They were not right then and they're not right now, but that the shorts are presented as they were originally made for posterity's sake or whatnot, which I do appreciate. And I, not to get in my soapbox, but I do think that's the way to handle something like this, not to try to edit or omit them from the Blu ray or whatever. They're there. They exist, and you want to kind of confront them and reckon with them. And so I think, in my estimation, I think that was the appropriate way to go about it. That's just like the elephant in the room when we talk about these. What kind of breaks my heart about them is that.

11:36
Anthony
That aside, it's actually kind of interesting that we're delving into these world War two espionage type stories.

11:44
Case
Right. That is the weird part here, where if you didn't have what is a huge red flag for people looking at it from a modern lens, the story itself is the first time we're really dealing with World War two in the Superman stuff. And the actual espionage part is actually really cool.

12:00
Anthony
Well, because you look at the. The first batch, the Fleischer ones, and they're. They're gorgeous and they're timeless in a lot of ways. And he's fighting, you know, monsters and dinosaurs and whatnot.

12:10
Case
Multiple Kaiju fights. Multiple kaiju fights, yeah.

12:13
Anthony
And there's something that's really appealing and awesome about that. But then to kind of segue into something that is more of the moment that what was going on. So the idea that there would be these stories dealing with World War two makes sense. And so, yeah, I wish that they had been presented differently because I think we would appreciate them and get something different out of them. But just kind of execution aside. But just on paper, the idea of doing those types of stories is intriguing.

12:39
Case
Yeah. We also get a really cool use of a clark Kent change into Superman. In this one, he uses the elevator, and we get cool shots of him sort of changing as it's going up.

12:47
Jmike
How did no one notice that? No one would have noticed that guy. At least, like, when he does it, normally, he's on the ground and it's like a covered area. But this, he's going up in a well lit elevator. Okay. The background is really well lit and going up in the middle of the air. I was. How did no one notice that?

13:06
Anthony
It's tough. And, you know, these days, everyone's got their heads buried in their phones. These days, I think it's easier to be like, nobody's paying attention. But then, you know, what were people looking at? They were just looking around. So harder to hide.

13:17
Case
Hard to really say for sure. I mean, like, you could make an argument that he is a newspaper man. And so probably a lot of people were reading the newspaper at the time. A Clark Kent article is the best cover for Superman, actually.

13:29
Anthony
Fair enough. I have to say, in terms of other things that stood out generally, there was a really cool transition between scenes here when our saboteur burns the cigarette on the newspaper and then it kind of opens up into the next scene. I thought that was cool.

13:43
Case
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Again, the quality of the actual production doesn't really dip. Like, there's certainly a difference in it. Like, you can see some animation shifts in it all just because the studio, there's a little bit of a gap between them. Not a huge gap, like a couple months and then some moving around. But the overall quality of the actual productions are very good. Yeah.

14:02
Jmike
Like when he was laying the plane, like the animation of him laying the plane and like the plane actually hitting the ground looked awesome. Him stopping the plane and bringing it down, the wheels bouncing on the ground, everything looked great. It's just kind of like the other stuff going on in the background.

14:15
Case
Yeah.

14:16
Anthony
I don't know. I don't know that I was as hot on the animation in this batch. I'm not saying it's there are world apart, but I mean, part of it is, I mean, this one, I think you get a fair amount of action. But to your point about the other ones, it's just there's a dynamic quality that I feel you really saw in that first batch, less so here. And the other thing, and this is maybe minor and maybe superficial and nitpicky, but I feel in these famous shorts, they just give up on the belt. On the yellow belt.

14:45
Case
Oh, yeah.

14:45
Anthony
Totally annoying me after a while. And I, even then my mind was playing tricks on me and I was like, were they diligent in the first batch? And I went back and I watched and I was like, yeah, no, they were so that kind of bugged me.

14:56
Case
Yeah. Rewatching these, because I didn't watch the whole batch and it's been podcast time is weird. So the last episode that dropped, Isla Fleischer one, but it's actually been like over a month since we recorded that episode. I could not remember for sure if he had the belt. I kept on watching it without the belt in this one, and I was like, oh, did they always omit the belt? Was the yellow just too much? Because we get the whole black superman symbol in this whole era. I'm glad to know that my mind was not playing tricks on me. I was like, very glad for that confirmation there. But that said, aside from the weird physics of can he fly, can he jump? But he can catch a plane and the weird races.

15:32
Case
I feel like that kind of covers most of my thoughts on the jaboturs. So why don't we move on to the next one, which is showdown. This one has a couple of interesting things going for it. For one, this has that classic setup for a superhero story of someone is pretending to be the superhero and, like, people actually buy it for some reason. Yeah, which is interesting. It also. And I had to check this one because I was like, is this a proto Jimmy Olsen that shows up in here? And it's not proto in the sense that Jimmy Olsen already existed by this point. But it's not explicitly Jimmy Olsen. But it feels like Jimmy Olsen. Right.

16:05
Jmike
I thought it was. My brain's kind of, like, glossed over it. It wasn't. You're saying it wasn't.

16:12
Case
It might be. It's just not explicitly.

16:15
Anthony
Yeah, I think he serves that function, if not that exact character. When we get to the last short, the secret agent, there's that guy Lewis on the street.

16:24
Case
Yeah.

16:25
Anthony
Looks and sounds just like. I mean, right?

16:27
Case
I think we're the same voice actor for that. But it's just doing this kind of, like, young voice, young boy voice from an adult male perspective. So that one threw me for a loop there. I do really enjoy the transition, by the way, when he's, like, it's formal and, like, Clark Kent is pulling on his collar and then it fades into him in the tux. I think that's a really cool shot right there.

16:45
Anthony
Nice touch.

16:46
Jmike
The mobster gave me Godfather vibes. I was like, this is way too early.

16:53
Case
Extremely early, considering that the mob was not a completely understood thing in terms of pop culture at this time.

17:00
Jmike
Maybe that's where they got the inspiration from.

17:02
Case
You say that, but it's actually kind of a funny thing, which is that apparently the release of the Godfather created a situation where mobsters tried to ape that style a lot more. And then previously, it had been a bit more just like, kind of thuggish. And then all of a sudden, it was like all these people trying to be like, class and Anna and all that stuff. So it might be a scenario where this influences that. Mario Puzzo did work on the original Superman movie.

17:24
Anthony
Very true. I thought this was a cool premise, and at least we're not in problematic red flag territory. So it's refreshing in that sense. And as far as no one recognizing him. Yeah, it requires suspension of disbelief, but I feel like it's easier to buy in the forties.

17:41
Case
Right.

17:41
Anthony
When presumably what people have seen or heard of Superman is vastly more limited than what would be the case today. So I don't know. It's not as tough a pill to swallow. But, yeah, I thought it was cool, him trying to track this guy down.

17:56
Case
Yeah, you get, like, a guy who's kind of in the right shape and you put him in a Superman costume. And considering that this is an era where Superman's not exactly flying, you know, it doesn't necessarily require that much of a push. It was interesting that Lake Lois was like, oh, it is Superman. And then immediately is like, oh, I knew it wasn't Superman. They don't really let you live in that sort of mixed up identity situation.

18:16
Anthony
Yeah. And the city turns on him awfully fast. All those headlines. I mean, after everything. I mean, it's like, come on.

18:24
Case
I did like the crime boss who's, like, very threatening and uses the golf club. Like, it is a fun detail there, especially because we get the setup of him abusing his Superman impersonator. And then when the real Superman shows up, he, like, tries to do it and it's like, oh, nope, never mind. Sorry, that was a mistake.

18:38
Jmike
That's Mister Superman there.

18:40
Case
Yeah. So it's like a fun, kind of gimmicky thing. All these shorts are, like, pretty quick kind of romps, unless there's a particular big deal. And then this one, it's just the imitating Superman part that kind of struck me.

18:52
Anthony
Yeah, no, these sit by, especially when you kind of take out the little preamble. And then we got a couple here that repeat the origin story. So some of them are exceedingly short. It's funny because I am currently in the process of making my way through the Superboy tv series all the way through for the first time. And there an episode in the first season that's exactly a takeoff on this. Someone in a Superboy costume pretending to be the character. So I felt right at home here.

19:17
Case
Yeah, I mean, this has probably happened to Spider man, like, what, 50 times? Not even the superpower imitators, like, just people dressed up in costume with, like, a line. It's very tried and true as far as storytelling purposes go. Next up, we have the 11th hour, which I actually rather enjoyed this as being an inverse of the japateurs as far as things go. Wherever, for some reason, Clark and Lois are in Japan. And it opens. Actually, this is one which has a lot of interesting action where it opens with Superman being a saboteur, being the one who destroys all their ships. And it becomes this recurring thing of every night. Clark Kent sneaks out as Superman. And I rather enjoyed him getting back to where they're being held, replacing the bars on the cell that they're keeping him in.

19:59
Case
All of those elements to it all. And then the actual action of the second night, he goes out and we see all of this destruction and whatnot that Superman is causing on the japanese fleet. It does a really good job of showing how effective Superman would be. But also, I would argue it shows that he isn't so powerful that he just wins the war. He's just making it really hard for the Japanese in this episode. And I would argue that this is a scenario where you could say, oh, yeah, Superman's out there. That's why we're doing so well in this fleet or that. And it allows for it to still be kind of a possibility. As opposed to the comic strip where Supermande goes and captures Hitler and Stalin just wins the war.

20:41
Anthony
Right off the bat, this, again, we run into the territory here of the stereotypical caricaturist depictions of the Japanese. The buck teeth, the over the top accent. It's unfortunate. This is the kind of story I would love to see retold with a modern sensibility because I think the setup of it is really intriguing. The only thing that I was kind of scratching my head about is Lois and Clark are there at an internment camp, essentially, right? Yet it looks like a hotel. I mean, there is quite. I mean, I know they're under lock and key and whatnot, but the actual digs that they're in don't seem so bad.

21:15
Case
Yeah. Clark gets back from the first night out that we see, and he just, like, switches into a robe and it's like. That's like a comfy looking setup. And they have separate rooms, like they're talking through, like a. Like through a door. I mean, yeah, sure, there's guards outside, but it does seem like just like. Like you said, like a hotel or like an apartment building that's been converted into whatever kind of prison they're in. So I was never quite clear about the details there. I don't know. It just sort of, like, it opens in metey res. And I don't think it ever really explains anything beyond that. But very interesting action. Like, Clark ripping through the japanese fleet is really cool. And then them using Lois as a hostage specifically to try to restrain Superman. How do you combat Superman?

21:55
Case
That was a good question right there because normally we don't have to deal with that question. If the civilian populace that we're witness to are the ones that are on the same side as Superman. And so here being like, okay, well, this is the other side of the war. Superman is fighting on the side of the Allies. Like, he's here in Japan fucking up their shit. We get to see how effective he is, and that's really cool.

22:16
Anthony
Yeah, I thought that worked. Well, it was funny, though, that. I mean, it's a good thing he happened to see that sign. They're putting up these signs all over. One more act of sabotage, and we'll kill the girl reporter, Lois Lane. And then he wrecks one of their ships. And then he happens to see this. Oh, I gotta go. But, you know, he's buried under rubble. He's got to get out. But, yeah, no, it was. It was an effective one. Again, like, a very interesting setup. I like that aspect of it.

22:42
Case
Right. Yeah, like, just like the Japateurs. Like, there's cool stuff going on that if it didn't have these elements, it would be way more interesting to discuss. As it is, I could easily see, like, the montage of, like, interesting Superman scenes using some of, like, him destroying the boats. Yeah, there's some really good shots of him, like, leaping into action and leaping from, like, his acts of sabotage in this whole thing. Just, like, an awkward element of the story keeps it from being truly great. But some cool stuff is going on here.

23:11
Jmike
I still want to figure out how they got there, though.

23:12
Case
Yeah, that would be great. Then at the end, it's just like, oh, Clark was left behind.

23:18
Jmike
How does Lois keep getting set on assignment when she's always in trouble?

23:21
Case
I mean, the argument is that because she always is going on assignment is why she ends up in trouble every time.

23:26
Jmike
Like, every single assignment that she's on.

23:29
Case
Hey, to be fair, she is not in every single one of these.

23:32
Jmike
True. 95% of the ones that she's. She's either captured, put in a missile, locked in a secret laboratory, about to be cut in half by a giant laser or something. I'm surprised Perry lets her out of the office anymore.

23:48
Case
She wants you back with the story.

23:49
Anthony
Yeah, yeah, back with the story. That's the thing.

23:52
Case
She seems to Clark every time, except for one time, they explicitly say she does it.

23:58
Anthony
And here, the one short that she's not in, there's someone who looks and sounds and awful like her.

24:02
Jmike
Oh, yeah.

24:03
Anthony
Feels like it was her. If you closed your eyes, you would think that.

24:08
Case
I mean, honestly, if you're colorblind, you would think that.

24:11
Anthony
Yeah.

24:12
Case
Moving on to destruction, Inc. This is the one that actually has the bus driver Lewis, that shows up who exactly looks just like the Jimmy Olsen type newsboy that we see earlier. So this one, we open with them, like hearing a radio announcement. And, like, both Lois and Clark have the idea, like, oh, that's probably a story. And, like, Lois sneaks away before Clark does. And so she goes and poses as a factory worker. And this is one of those ones where it's just like, oh, this just races from plot point to plot point because immediately she overhears the crew that are kind of rigging up some sort of sabotage situation because that's just every episode of this batch is about someone sabotaging something related to the war.

24:50
Case
And she sneaks up to overhear them messing around with what's supposed to be, like a dummy torpedo. But instead they're loading it up with dynamite, which I'm like, dynamite? Really? That seems like a very simple explosion to describe, but I guess for the audience it works pretty well. And so she's stuffed into this dummy torpedo that they're going to use on a boat just to show off the latest advancements in their torpedo technology or whatever it is. And also loaded up with dynamite. And Superman comes in. I enjoyed this part because I didn't actually clock it at first. I watched these about three times with various levels of, I would look away and then, like, look up from my phone. And then all of a sudden, I had missed, like, huge amounts of things.

25:31
Case
And it was like, there's this night guard who they just, like, drop a shitload of metal on and I'm like, oh, that guy's fucking dead. Oh, he's Superman. Okay, that explains that.

25:39
Jmike
I didn't notice it was him the first time. It was like, oh, this is old guy who's like. Walks in and I was like, cool. Like I said, I looked at my phone, looked back up and I was like, oh, they killed him, right? Oh, okay, cool. Interesting.

25:52
Anthony
I think it's a reasonable thing to miss. I think they did a good job. And then, of course, ironically, you know, as the audience, it's like we're fooled by this disguise and yet Lois is the one who's able to see through it. I didn't like this one, though. I did not get what the villains were. I mean, we don't get any backstory here. So presumably they're either traitors or foreign agents, again, who are there to sabotage and maybe that's all we need to know. I suppose it just felt very nebulous about what their agenda was and why specifically they were doing this.

26:22
Case
Yeah, I also did not find it particularly compelling. Like I said, it's kind of a sprint of plot points on this one. And even the objective of, like, well, they're firing a dummy torpedo at a ship that is, like, very clearly like this, like, used, like, rundown ship that they're aiming a torpedo at. Regardless of if it's a live explosive in it's gonna puncture it or do some, like. I don't. I don't know what all the goals are here. And I think this is a problem of this, like, serial format where they are just, like, sprinting through. And this one's a particularly short one.

26:51
Anthony
Yes.

26:52
Case
But it is funny at the very end where, like, for one thing, that clerk gets back in the security guard outfit for some reason after this whole thing is done.

26:59
Jmike
Yeah.

26:59
Case
Like, including putting the fake mustache on.

27:01
Anthony
Very committed to the bit.

27:02
Case
Yeah. But then Lois sees through that disguise, but not through the normal Superman.

27:07
Jmike
Somehow. Somehow, yeah.

27:11
Anthony
You know what, though? I think the serial format's tough because I spent some time with the Kirk Allen movie serials, and those were serialized. So it was, you know, for the two of them, there were, you know, there was one, you know, overarching narrative across all of those chapters, and it got so repetitive where the plot was very slowly advancing, but it was still the same kind of dynamic that was playing out chapter after chapter. And it just got so repetitive and so redundant versus here where they're standalone, but you have such limited screen time and real estate that, again, something like this really doesn't get developed in any meaningful way. So it's tough whether you go fully serialized or just stand alone. I think it's a tough. It can be a tough format.

27:53
Case
I'm going to make a mean joke right now, but are you saying that the Kirk Allen ones are kind of like a Brian Michael Bendis script?

27:59
Jmike
How dear.

28:03
Case
I have liked a lot of what Bendis has written. I just need to say that part out loud because I've ripped on him a few times. But, yeah, that's my biggest complaint about his stuff. And you're right, like, calling these serials is probably the wrong term. Shorts is a more accurate term. And I think it goes back to the way a lot of comics are where at the time, they're so tight. But unlike a comic that can be, like, one story in multiple, in a regular comic issue, you can't, like, control the pace of it. So these move very fast. You can't go back a page. You can't, like, linger on a panel or anything like that.

28:35
Case
And as a result, every time we, like, kind of look down at our phone, we would miss, like, a severe plot point if they even explained it at all.

28:41
Anthony
Yeah, this is one you could pay attention all day long, and you're still not gonna know what exactly their deal was.

28:48
Case
Like I said, I watched all of these about three times, and I still have no idea what they said at the beginning on the radio that they're like, that sounds like a story. It just is very quick and just, like, moving on. Speaking of moving on, why don't we move on to the mummy strikes? Okay, so this is where these shorts are getting into, like, a weirder space. So I'm a little bit of a bronze age history nerd, so I appreciated quite a few of the elements in here. And at the same time was like, they're getting some stuff right. There's, like, a weird thing about, like, upper and lower kingdom, Egypt being at war with each other, but at the same time, this is, like, mid dynastic period.

29:21
Case
And then it's, like, inside a pyramid, which would mean it should all be old kingdom and it should be unified. And then the arts style is, like, a pretty good approximation, except for it's missing the one key detail of egyptian art, which is that all of their features should be present. Because that's a whole thing about depicting everything's important to who you are in it all. Sorry, I just needed to go off on the diatribe for a second there. But that said. Okay, so, obviously, this is inspired by King Tut and by the various.

29:48
Jmike
What? Really? King tush.

29:49
Case
I know. King Tut.

29:50
Jmike
King Tut.

29:52
Case
Which. Okay, so that one infuriated me that the amount of times I kept on saying, like, this is the tomb of King Tush and everything like that, where I'm like, you know, it's tootin common, right? Like, everyone just, like, abbreviated it for the sake of it being easier to say. But all of the names that we have are, like, super long, and everything that we call it that is shorter is still just, like, one part of their name or things like that. That said, I enjoyed the fact that this was Clark was the person that they called to bring into the situation. Like, it's good to remember that. Like, oh, yeah. Sometimes he's a. A capable reporter in his own right and isn't just like, lois Lane's bagman.

30:24
Anthony
I mean, for me, I think when being a reporter is only a cover, like, he just does it so he can be there to learn about trouble right away. I don't care for that. I like when it's more meaningful, when he's good at it. When it's something that he derives some meaning from. Not that we get that much depth here, but still, I like this. That he was actually working his story wasn't just like, oh, he happened to be there.

30:44
Case
Well, he's working a story that is saving a person's life. Because there's this whole, this woman finds a person dead with a syringe and they're like, isn't it weird that you are the person that found him dead? And there's fingerprints on the things, and it's like, obviously she called the police. The circumstances are very finicky for having this particular killing situation. But so the whole idea is, though, that this woman who finds this professor dead is blamed for the murder. And we see these headlines where it's like, oh, she's guilty, she's guilty. But Clark gets called in because a different professor is like, oh, I actually think there might be a different explanation. And then I felt very weird about this part, which is that they perfectly recreated.

31:22
Case
And in large part by taking artifacts from the burial site and rebuilding it in metropolis, which talk about things that have not aged well. That feels a lot like grave robbing right there.

31:34
Anthony
Ill be honest. I guess im back to back downer here. But I did not care for this one either. I dont have the affinity for that history, per Se. It was an awful lot of the professor monologuing about the backstory here. And I'm like, all right, like, we gotta kind of move this forward. So I didn't get a ton of mileage out of this one. But in fairness, I appreciate that we mixed up the war propaganda and did a little something different.

32:02
Case
Yeah, it's at least doing a different kind of thing. And then apparently, the sarcophagus, it's cursed.

32:08
Jmike
You see?

32:08
Case
It's cursed. Yes, it's cursed. And also booby trapped. So there's a needle that pops out and poisons people, which is apparently what killed the guy. And that the syringe that he had was actually a serum that can bring things back to life. Which I guess was partially what was being used for the mummified corpses that were then revived when, like, the pendant, like, shined a light. There's a lot of magic in this one. The sort of. I would say there's a problem in general with all of these famous ones of orientalizing things. And, like, in this scenario, it's like, oh, look at the ancient magics of the Egyptians. The fact that we have a sarcophagus that when you open it will activate the dead. And also the dead are giants. They've got these.

32:48
Case
At first when they show the hieroglyphics of these guards that are bowing to the prince. I assume that was some sort of stylized things. But then when we actually see them, like, no, they're actually fucking giants. They're huge guys who are able to fight Superman.

33:02
Jmike
The whole egyptian episode reminded me more of, was it the power of Shazam?

33:06
Case
Yeah, the long time ago where it.

33:10
Jmike
Starts off in like, was it the pyramids?

33:13
Case
Yeah, they were in a pyramid that was going to be flooded when the dam was constructed. Yeah. I mean, like, look, I'm not trying to say that I really liked this. I'm just saying that I enjoy the aesthetic of actually dealing with, like, ancient Egypt because I'm just a nerd for that kind of thing. And it was popular at the time, you know, like the discovery of King Tutankhamun's tomb was this huge landmark because it was one that actually wasn't robbed already. So it was like a huge window into egyptian culture that had, at the time, hadn't really been seen. That's kind of fun. I enjoy this ripped from the headlines kind of thing. It is weird that we have just huge fucking guys who can fight Superman.

33:51
Case
I think they don't explain that at all beyond just being like, well, they're ancient magic alchemy stuff. I do also enjoy that this is explicitly the time where Clark scoops Lois, which makes sense considering the fact that he was the person who came to cover the story and Lois just sort of followed him because she's a bitch. I love Lois, but the Lois land of the Superman cartoons very much is trying to scoop Clark at every possible turn in very unscrupulous ways. So in this one, they say she's injured, but her entire arm, like, both arm is bandaged up. And I'm like, what injury happened? Because it wasn't like they were burned or something like that. It's like, did they just get broken? Like, did the mummies crush her hands? And that's why she's at work, but in fully bandaged up arms.

34:41
Anthony
It's pretty severe to be cast in both arms.

34:45
Case
Yeah. And then she gets the whole pun of like, my mummy dunn told me, which, okay, cool. I will say I do enjoy that at least that there is some falling action in this one, which was a common thing in the first batch of these, but is less so. This one and showdown have moments where they're back at the office and they're kind of like, yeah. Ha ha. But I think one of the problems I have with the famous two d ones in general is that Superman shows up and the short ends right after he shows up. He just sort of, like, solves the problem and then it's like, eh, and we're done. But none of the famous ones are as good as any of the Fleischer ones like that. I think we just need to be aware of just in general.

35:23
Case
And on that note, let's move on to the incredibly uncomfortable jungle drums.

35:27
Anthony
Yeah, that's a rough one.

35:30
Case
So on the one hand, they don't dehumanize the Nazis but they do dehumanize like crazy the african civilians that the Nazis are manipulating. Ugh. God. I don't even know where to start with this one because it's, like, actually pretty fucking gross.

35:47
Jmike
It's an episode. That's the way I'll put it. It's an episode.

35:52
Case
Yeah.

35:53
Anthony
It's a pretty grotesque. It's a pretty grotesque visual representation of the african people.

35:57
Jmike
Yeah.

35:58
Case
Including a lot of shots of their faces just looming over everyone. It fades over kind of thing.

36:06
Jmike
And it's just that the mask and everything too.

36:11
Case
But anyway, Nazis set up a secret base in Africa. A plane gets shot down with Lois on it. There's plans. So Lois is trying to hide them, but she gets captured immediately. And she hides them in the jungle under a rock. Yeah. Superman follows her and parachutes down. I do appreciate that he parachutes down as a way of keeping his cover. When he comes in, it didn't look.

36:31
Jmike
Like he told the guy. It's like he just jumped out the plane. I was like, did the guy know that he was leaving? Because the guy was talking to him. He leaned back and talked to him and then Clark just jumped. I was like, oh, cool. I guess.

36:43
Case
Yeah. I mean, it makes enough sense that when they're like, oh, there's something going on. And he goes and joins, oh, yeah. The plan is the U boat stuff. It's like the location of where the U boats are going to be. Because then that's the whole thing that Lois gets the message out and they're able to destroy the fleet. So that's an interesting one because there is the anxiety of the era which I don't think the three of us can relate to specifically because we're children of the 21st century.

37:08
Anthony
We have different anxieties.

37:10
Case
Yeah, exactly. But we have to remember that world War one and world War two era, like, the U boats were terrifying because they were just like, this invisible thing that just caused ships to go down. That's at least an interesting element there.

37:20
Anthony
You know what? Also, too, the fact that the plane that Lois is in goes down, the pilot dies, and, you know, and that other short, the night watchman whose body is sinking into the swamp, he's been killed. I mean, these stories had. Had teeth.

37:30
Case
Yeah.

37:31
Anthony
There are stakes here.

37:32
Case
Yeah, absolutely. But, yeah, man, the presentation that, like, the Nazis are able to just, like, manipulate african citizens by way of, like, superstition. And then, like, it's gross. This is a gross one. Like, this one definitely needs a warning beforehand when you're approaching it. You guys want to move on to the next one?

37:47
Anthony
Sure.

37:50
Case
So the next one is just a fucking acid trip. The underground world.

37:53
Jmike
Hey, I thought this one was kind of like, oh, my gosh. Thanagarians.

37:57
Case
I know, right?

37:59
Anthony
That's very much that.

38:00
Jmike
Oh, crap. Like, the lost tribal thanarians that landed here on earth millennia ago. Oh, crap. This is awesome. And I was like, oh, it's just not as exciting.

38:11
Case
Okay, so we find in this massive cave structure that there is a race of bird people living. And let me ask you this question. Why?

38:20
Jmike
I said the antagarians might have crashed here a long time ago, and they're, like, the last tribe, and they've been living underneath the crust forever. That's all I got.

38:30
Case
Yeah. No, it's just kind of funny because you're like, if these are supposed to be naturally occurring, like, why would they be inside the caves? Like, why wouldn't they be, like, out in the world, right?

38:37
Anthony
Because it's like, I feel like if you were gonna. If you were gonna make them bird people, this could have been some sort of secret mountain hideaway or something.

38:43
Case
Yeah. Up in the mountains, right. Or, like, in a big forest.

38:46
Anthony
Yeah. It was an odd combination.

38:48
Case
I mean, like, wouldn't it be funny if it was superman versus the moleman?

38:52
Anthony
Yeah, there you go.

38:54
Jmike
I mean, you can't do another mountain fortress again.

38:57
Case
I know, I know. Like, look, I overall enjoy this one. And in that, it is a weird acid trip of a thing. For one thing, I find that the line work in this one is very soft when they're outside and everything. It has this kind of Disney picturesque kind of quality to it. I love Clark in his exploration outfit that he's wearing. It feels very doc savage looking, but a mild mannered version of that. I like Lois and the doctor just going to explore. And I like that they set up why they're going. Which is that they go and they talk to perry white and, hey, there's this whole cave system that I would like to explore that I've got information because of my dad and yada.

39:30
Case
There's actual setup for why things are happening in this one, which is not the case for all of these. That's kind of fun. It is weird that it's just like, there's fucking hawkman, like, living inside here, and they've got this whole civilization built around, is the deal that they, like, put the people in molten metal, like molten gold. And that's how they get the statues of people.

39:50
Jmike
I think that's what they were going to get.

39:51
Case
Yeah. So that reveals what happened to the dad in the first place. It's like, there we go again. Teeth, or rather beaks.

39:57
Anthony
You know, correct me if I'm wrong, because now I'm, like, scanning through all of these in my. In my head. But, I mean, this one is an outlier, right, in that, I guess the egyptian one dabbled with the supernatural. But still, all of these, except for this one, are still grounded in reality, more or less. Even the ones where it's like a dinosaur that's been frozen thaws out in the first batch. But still, this whole thing about just the subterranean species of bird people is pretty out there among these shorts.

40:28
Case
Yeah, much more out there. Yeah. Because I would point to the arctic giant episode, but like we said, it's a t. Rex thing. It's got, you know, it looks more like Godzilla, but it's just frozen in ice. Those are all Sci-Fi and this one's leaning more into fantasy. I guess technically the mummy strikes is more pure magic because, like, there's no explanation for these creatures. That's a good question of, like, is this more fantasy than the mummy strikes one? I'm now, like, curious because you could make an argument that it's also, like the thanagarian situation, even if it's not explicitly Thanagarians.

41:02
Jmike
I'm just saying.

41:03
Case
Yeah, no, no. But I'm saying, like, that's at least, like, Sci-Fi right? Like, it's still. It's aliens, which is, like, the Sci-Fi fantasy stuff. It's definitely a weird, out there kind of world. And I enjoy at the end that they can't tell the story. That's kind of a fun part about it where it's just like, this is really fucking weird, guys. I don't know why they feel it's so fucking weird. But, like, they think it's really fucking weird. And it's the thing that we can't reveal to the world.

41:24
Anthony
Yeah, I mean, Perry white, he just burns it up. I mean, you know, they tell, they print stories every day about a guy who can leap, slash fly. So it feels like, you know, people might be able to buy this story, but, yeah, I don't know. Like, that aspect of it was interesting. And he burns it up and it's like, that's the only copy, right? I mean, that's no bad.

41:43
Case
Yeah, they have pictures. They have pictures of these things.

41:46
Anthony
Not good enough.

41:47
Case
Yeah. I do also enjoy that the Hawkmen are, like, interesting adversaries for Superman. Like, they can legit fly. And in this one, he seems to be more jumping than flying. So it's not like an aerial battle. Or at least the stakes of the aerial battle are different. Like, he's coming up and down and they're swooping about and they seem to be physically strong enough to do some stuff. There's one shot that's like a really hardcore shot where one of the Hawkmen takes a spear and it looks like they start to stab him. And then Superman stands up. So I'm not sure what the blocking of that was, if he somehow rolled out of the way or something because it seems that if they missed him, they stabbed the earth.

42:19
Case
The handle is sticking up in frame, but we don't know how strong these guys are. Like, they do seem to be able to put up a fight with Superman even one one. Like, when an individual hits Superman, he, like, actually, like, gets knocked back a bit. And so that's an interesting element for this one, even if it's just so out there.

42:37
Anthony
This is a more modestly powered Superman. I mean, the fact that, I mean, I'm forgetting offhand exactly which short. But I mean, he does punch people, right? So the idea that then he could be hit himself even by not, you know, the most powerful adversary, you know, it tracks with this iteration.

42:52
Jmike
I was going to ask, how did a dynamite explode? Because it was in the boat and it went through a waterfall and then it blows up.

42:58
Case
Oh, just. It should be wet. Definitely a don't think about it situation there.

43:04
Jmike
I was like, I was watching it and I was like, wait, how did that happen? It's like, oh, no, the boat got away and they're chasing the boat and then they're like, oh, by the waterfall. And they look at it and it goes right through the waterfall and then it explodes. And I was like, I need answers because Clark has at least he, like, he throws a grenade to keep the birdman in the cave. Water hits dynamite. Everything goes crazy, and they get trapped. I just want to know.

43:30
Case
I mean, there seems to be a big correlation between being plunged into water and explosions in the series. Like, all the boats that Superman, like, pulls into the water, like, explode. Maybe that's your explanation. Maybe this is a weird world where physics involve the pressure of water causes things to combusthe.

43:45
Jmike
Okay. The ships I understand, because, like, the combustion engine and things at the time. I get that one. This one, like, water shouldn't just make dynamics float. But that's just me putting out there.

43:57
Case
Why don't we move on to the last of this group, which is the secret agent. So we referenced. This is the one that doesn't have Lois Lane, but it has a woman who appears to be using the same model as Lois Lane, except she's blonde. And it's also voiced by the same voice actress, Joan Alexander. So the fact that it's not Lois Lane is sort of like, eh, you know, if you squint.

44:23
Jmike
Are we 100% sure that it's not lois?

44:25
Case
I mean, presumably Lois Hyannis. Lois playing with a wig, you know, was not. I mean, but I guess now that I'm starting to say it, like, it would make sense for her to go undercover and, like, dig something up like that. It is surprising that they didn't even just bother just making it low. It's, like, where she had gotten the story and now is in danger because, like, we would all know that Lois wasn't going to die. And maybe they wanted the stakes of this person. Who knows? But, yeah, so we have this, like, this informant who had infiltrated a group of saboteurs, because apparently that's just this major thing that everyone is always concerned about. And she goes to the police and is like, I've got all this data, and it's going to reveal everything.

45:03
Case
And then they're after, and Superman has to, like, step in and save her. This is definitely the most. And the american way. It concludes the episode with Superman taking her to Washington, DC. And we get this big aerial shot of the Capitol. And then he flies off saluting the flag. So certainly in terms of the patriotism angle, it's very much there.

45:23
Anthony
I know. That's the note we end on. We end all of these shorts with that. I thought this was a pretty dynamic one. There were some cool chases in that main car chase. You get Clarke jumping onto the back of one of the cars.

45:36
Case
Yeah, that's a really good shot.

45:37
Anthony
Yeah, that was cool.

45:40
Case
And I'm trying to remember if this is the one where Superman has like, knocks a few people around. I can't remember. But you are right. There is like a fight at one point between Superman and a bunch of just guys. And I remember watching it and being like, don't they know he's Superman? They hit him with a sledgehammer. It might not be this one, but you're right. There is a scene like that in one of these that just the whole time was like, that's strange. I feel like he is established enough that they would all just know considering that the second episode in this batch is like, oh, well, we got to pretend to be Superman. That way no one's even going to bother trying to stop us. But then reverse that. I don't know. Shane Mike, what were your thoughts on this one?

46:18
Jmike
I was confused because I was trying to figure out all this other stuff is going on and I was trying to figure out who exactly the saboteurs were. So it's like, are they german saboteurs? Because I feel like one of them had a german accent.

46:34
Case
Either their german saboteurs could be working for the Germans, but I'm not sure which.

46:39
Jmike
I was like, okay, cool. But I'm still convinced that was Lois Lane with a wig.

46:46
Case
Yeah, I mean, she definitely gets into Lois type situations. It is a really dramatic sequence where she's in the gears of the bridge as it's like, coming together and Superman has to stop the bridge itself to stop the gears. That's a pretty cool shot right there.

46:58
Jmike
Fantastic.

46:59
Anthony
Yeah, this one, I feel like this one ties.

47:02
Case
Yeah.

47:02
Anthony
J Mike, I like your head cannon, man. Thanagarians. And the last one, and this is Lois undercover here. I'm on board with it. I feel like this was a fun one that kind of, especially for the second batch, tied a lot together. Not narratively. Right. They're all standalone, but just kind of playing into theme of the sabotage. But also, again, I think being very action packed and high stakes and high tension and more dynamic, I think among the more dynamic ones that even in certain respects, kind of call to mind the first batch. So I don't know. I like this. I thought this was a solid note to go out on. Yeah, relatively, right?

47:36
Jmike
I just feel like this was like a weird one to end on, though. Like this would have been like one of the middle episodes because the other ones were kind of like, what is happening here? Then you're like, bam. They hit you with like, oh, crap, this is really cool. And it's over.

47:50
Case
It does have a very fast ending to the episode. He takes her to DC and then just pieces out. It's not one of those ones that have them chatting at the daily Planet afterwards. It's just like Superman saves the day and the episode's over. But we do get that salute, and it's very patriotic at the time. And it feels more like the first batch, frankly, minus the fact that it's missing Lois and all that. The stakes are a bit more mundane and the action is ramped up pretty well.

48:17
Anthony
I really thought were going to get a conversation with him and the president at the end. Oh, yeah, I forgot the exact ending. And I real. I really was waiting for that. But yeah, no, like you said, he just flies away, salutes the flag, and we just linger on that flag and then we're out.

48:29
Case
God, can you imagine if FDR just showed up?

48:34
Jmike
Thank you, Shooferman. Your country. Thank you.

48:37
Case
This is a day that will remain and not infamy fame. Yes. I overall enjoyed this episode. And you know what? Like, look, this whole chunk of episodes have the pressures of World War Two really, like, coming down on everyone. You can see that's what they just can't stop thinking about at this point, even to the point where the ones that are, like, completely unrelated are detours from this, like, larger war effort kind of plot that we keep coming back to, you know, every other episode or less than that. You know, the other ones are like, feel very ripped from the headlings. Like, again, mummy strikes. There's this whole pop culture wave of interest. Mummies as a supernatural threat was a new concept. It didn't exist prior to the 20th century the same way that vampires did or other kind of undeads.

49:26
Case
It's very specifically linked to the culture of the time. And that shows that it was the du jour kind of thing in the zeitgeist to talk about when this one came out. But aside from that, the rest of these are like, man, the damn Nazis. And, like, those damn japanese Nazis are big threats that we have to deal with in these. And you can see the window of time that these were made in. Yeah.

49:49
Anthony
From that historical perspective, they are very interesting. And you keep in mind, too, people going to theater to see this at that time, looking for some kind of escape and to see their favorite character in that type of situation helping to turn the tide even as he's sweating to do so. Right. Struggling like we saw when they were over in Japan. I mean, you could definitely see the appeal and, like, why? These would be the kinds of stories. These have a very distinct flavor. This second batch.

50:16
Case
Yeah. Of this batch, what would you say your favorite and least favorite were?

50:22
Anthony
Well, can we all agree? I mean, like, the jungle drums or was it drums of death or jungle drums.

50:26
Case
Jungle drums.

50:27
Anthony
Jungle drums. I feel like that might.

50:30
Case
Yeah, I think that. Yeah, just. We'll just, like, make that one the worst.

50:37
Anthony
The mummy strikes one that really. I just really felt like that one dragged. So I'd probably say that is my least favorite and my favorite, I don't know, might be secret agent. I like that one.

50:47
Case
Yeah.

50:47
Anthony
Because I guess it made me feel the most like that first batch. So that'd be my favorite and least favorite.

50:51
Case
Okay, Jay, Mike, how about you?

50:53
Anthony
Oh, man.

50:54
Jmike
I have a tie for my favorite, mainly because of my own head cannon, because I love Dandegarians. Underground and secret Asian are probably tops for me. The other one's not so much. I'm still really confused about the mummy one.

51:13
Case
That's fair.

51:14
Jmike
I was telling case, like, it made me think too much of Shazam, and I was like, it's kind of bad for you to be thinking of another character while you're watching a Superman cartoon.

51:23
Case
Sure. But, you know, I don't think that comparison is really as appetite for the original Captain Marvel stuff of the time. While the cereals had some egyptian flavored stuff going on with it, and the original origin indicates. Okay, well, there was Black Adam, who was a previous person in egyptian times and so forth. It's not as rooted in the egyptian mythology, but I see why that's influencing you. Really, Casey, I will say I'm going to go with 11th hour actually, is my favorite of this batch, just because I think that the sequences of Superman just being a destructive force are so interesting and so different from everything that we have seen in the rest of these. I would say secret agents, probably my number two. And then, like, least favorite, you know, obviously, jungle drums is the worst.

52:10
Case
I guess Chapo tours just because it's also, like, uncomfortable in very big ways. Which is funny that, like, 11th hour ends up being, like, my top, even though it also has some uncomfortable elements. But I think there's more going on that kind of saves it for me. Me. Here's the question. If you were just introducing people to all of the Fleischer famous studio shorts, would any of these make your list of, like, the five ish that you would show a person?

52:37
Jmike
Yeah, my top two.

52:40
Case
You think underground world would beat out, like, the magnetic telescope?

52:44
Jmike
Well, it's not gonna be out that one. Okay. I was like, it introduced people to the series. I would have them watch one of these, one of those two, just because I'm like, hey, Thanagarians. Hey, you know, they were thinking about it back in the 1940s. Hooray. It was a thing back then, but especially secret agent, because that one kind of, like, flows with the rest of the series more than those other ones we're not going to name anymore. That just kind of exists in their own little parallel pocket dimension.

53:16
Case
That's fair. Anthony, how about you? If you were introducing people to these cartoons in general, like, is there one? Like, would these make your top five?

53:23
Anthony
So if we're talking pure quality, like, if it was really just, hey, these are the. You only have time to watch five. These are the five best. No, I would not pull any from the famous batch just in terms of just the quality of the animation and that dynamic aspect and action. However, if the mandate was nothing, these are the five best. But here's what I was really trying to give someone a representation. You would have to take one of these saboteur episodes to show, like, okay. Then in the second batch, went all in on the world War two propaganda, and this is the territory were in. And I'd probably go with 11th hour because I think that is probably the best of the propaganda batch. So that's kind of where I would land on that. Because I think.

54:10
Anthony
I mean, yeah, if you really want to give someone, like, this is what these are about, and this was how they changed and whatnot, then, yeah, then I do think it's important to have that. But just in terms of quality.

54:19
Case
No, yeah, that's fair. I mean, I think that if I was trying to show people, like, five of them in total, and, like, five is an arbitrary number. But, like, I would say I'd probably mix in. Yeah, 11th hour and maybe secret agent might make the list just to be that overview and also to make it a little bit different, because, again, the first batch has a little bit of a sameness kind of problem to them. So once you've done both the Superman versus the mad scientist and the mechanical monsters, do I need another mad scientist one? And I'm like, nah, maybe not. So if I was trying to make a collection of them, I probably, like, I would omit the bulleteers just because that one makes me angry all the time that it's not rocket packs or some kind of bullet car.

54:59
Case
Instead, it is just a vehicle, and they have car chase sequences. I'm like, why you can fly again. I think we're all in agreement that the first wave had much better production quality to it. The writing in general. There's much more interesting interplay between Clark and Lois. This one. It's sort of like their dynamic has already established, and we're not really spending as much time with that. I'd say the 11th hour probably gets the closest to the true banter of them, especially when Lois is like, clark, are you awake? And it's like, who can sleep with all that noise and yada, yada. Anthony, you mentioned at the top that you had ended up watching the first couple and just being like, these are classic. And then just never really watched the others.

55:37
Case
And I sort of feel like I'm kind of in the same boat, which is that I had seen stuff of these, but they're not the ones that really stick out to me once you get through the first couple of the Fleischer studio ones, and you're like, oh, yeah, here's all the quality. There's so much greatness to it all as a general work. They are all impressive things, especially for the time, but none really hit the heights of the mechanical monsters for me, which I think is going to live as my favorite. And so I can understand why people would sort of remember those first couple and kind of blur out the rest as just being like, here's all of those other episodes in these shorts.

56:15
Anthony
You know, we got, you know, you've done two episodes on them now, and I did a long episode on my show about these. So, like, there's always stuff that you can talk about with these, I would say for myself, and, like, shifting over to comics, I always, in terms of what I think about and talk about when we're talking comics, always. I'm focusing on the writing side of it, though. I appreciate it's a visual medium, but I guess with these, they're so driven by the visuals. There's not a ton of dialogue. There's no real character development. There's no serialized storyline. So there's nothing, not a lot to sink your teeth into. It's really just the setup and then the visuals and the action. So again, there's still plenty to talk about as we have.

56:52
Case
Yeah. And I think also there's a context that we haven't really talked about, which is that these shorts would have been preceding, like, other features.

56:59
Jmike
Yeah.

56:59
Case
Like, I watched these in, like, mass sittings, but if you were just getting them as, like, a little taste, and it was, you know, a month apart each time when you happen to be at the movie theaters, like, that would be a really nice kind of little moose boosh before whatever movie you're watching.

57:14
Anthony
Yeah, for sure.

57:15
Case
And I feel like that would make some of the ones like the mummy strikes a little bit more palatable just because it's just like, oh, here's a little romp before we get into whatever movie we're talking about, which is also a vibe that we just don't, we don't relate to because that's not how we experience media anymore.

57:30
Anthony
Yeah, no, I agree completely.

57:32
Case
Well, I'm glad that we had a chance to sort of, like, sit down and look at these ones specifically. I know I had seen the hawk people before at some point, but I could not tell you guys. I had also seen some of the weird racist stereotype shots at some point, but if you had asked if I'd ever seen the secret agent before, I don't know if I had. Like I said, I bought these multiple times, but after you watch a couple of them, you kind of zone out. You might even leave it on, but you probably haven't remembered all the details from it all just because there is kind of a saneness and they're not designed to be watch 17 shorts in a yemenite.

58:04
Case
It's a different type of media than that, and our brains just don't absorb that kind of media the same way anymore. But I'm glad that we did these two episodes talking about it. It's very cool seeing this relic of Superman history.

58:16
Anthony
It deserves this treatment that you've given it. So kudos.

58:19
Case
Thank you. It also deserves to have you come on for this conversation because you are a great Superman podcaster and you have an awesome Superman podcast. So why don't you talk a little bit about that? Because. Because I really appreciate that we got a chance to chat today.

58:35
Anthony
Thank you so much for having me. It was great. J Mike was great meeting you. And Kay, it's great to speak with you again. And you'll be on digging for kryptonite again in the very near future. So I have two Superman podcasts. The quote unquote main one is digging for Kryptonite, a Superman fan journey available on all major podcast platforms. And we mine Superman's vast 86 year mythology across time and media. We really jump around, we cover a lot. And currently we're in the midst of a mega series, a Superboy fan journey. So Clark's history as Superboy has long been, for the most part, a gap in my super fandom. And now we're closing it. So we've been tackling Clark as Superboy across time and media. It's been fascinating. My perspective is shifting and we'll be in that territory for a while.

59:18
Anthony
So that's digging for kryptonite.

59:19
Case
Yeah. Did I see that you just dug up the pilot for the sixties Superboy tv show?

59:24
Anthony
Oh, this was fascinating, man. Yeah.

59:27
Case
I didn't know this existed until I saw your social media post.

59:30
Anthony
It's one of my favorite recent recordings. I love them all. But this one was so much fun. And it's one of the most obscure pieces of Superman media. There was a pilot for a proposed series called the Adventures of Superboy in 1961 that was spearheaded by Whitney Ellsworth, who was producer on Adventures of Superman. And this was just a few years after Adventures of Superman ended following the death of George Reeves. So this was an attempt to keep the character alive on television with a Superboy show. What's really fascinating about it is that Ellsworth and his writers, they wrote all 13 scripts for what would have been that first season.

01:00:06
Anthony
And then they chose one to film as the pilot, which is out there, and you can watch it, but there's a book that has summaries of the other twelve scripts, which is so rare to actually get. It's one thing to have an unaired pilot. It's like, okay. But then you actually have a sense of what the season would have looked like. And they were planning to do red kryptonite and mixiaspitalik and time travel and all this stuff. Like it was wild.

01:00:26
Case
Oh, shit.

01:00:26
Anthony
Yeah. So that's our most recent episode. It was really a lot of fun. And then if anyone's a fan of the George Reeves Adventures of Superman, a television series, we do a rewatch podcast. We're currently early on in season two that's called another exciting episode in the Adventures of Superman. And we just go episode by episode talking about the George Reeve series, which, well, the first two seasons I've seen, so it really is a rewatch for me. But as we get into the color years, it'll be a lot of first time viewing for me. But that's one that really has been fascinating too, to really get into. So those are the two shows and hope people will check them out.

01:00:55
Case
Yeah, we haven't talked about the George Reeves Superman yet on this show. And I'm sure that when we get into that, I will be pouring through those episodes to see your perspective on it all just because it's one that I watched on Nick at night all the time as a kid, but I haven't gone back to as an adult.

01:01:10
Anthony
I won't monologue about this all night, but I'll just say real quick, one of the things that I think is so interesting about that show is that it changes so much where the first season are these very gritty crime noir stories. There are violence, Superman's punching people left and right. And then the second season softens a good bit, and then you get into the color years and it becomes like a more kid friendly show. So it has, I would argue, like three distinct eras to it with different feels. It's deserving of a, you know, revisitation because it's an important chapter in the character's history.

01:01:43
Case
Awesome. Well, for anyone who wants to revisit that, they should definitely be checking out your show, and they should be checking out digging for kryptonite, which is such a fun series. And you've got a whole bunch of other podcasts, right?

01:01:54
Anthony
I have. In the past, I've consolidated a bit and shows have added. But I did a big Power Rangers fan. And so last year, during the 30th anniversary year, I did a year long show called summoning the Zords. So if we have any Power Rangers fans out there, we did that. But yeah, right now it's really digging for kryptonite and another exciting episode in the adventures of Superman. And we do Patreon bonus stuff and whatnot. But those are really the two, the one two punch of the podcast, right?

01:02:17
Case
I now, I really enjoyed all the shows that you've worked on, especially digging for kryptonite. When we had our first year or two under our belt, I was like, I should check out and see what other people are doing. Because this show started because were Superman fans who really enjoyed talking about Superman and that we had friends who were always kind of shitting on Superman because they were Batman fans all the time. And so this show started with a little bit of spite, but it was out of this, like, we just like the character and we like gushing about Superman and the stuff that's related to Superman and the archetype of it all and wanted some positivity. So I was curious, like, what else was out there?

01:02:50
Case
And so when I stumbled on your show, I was like, oh, this is a really fun show with, like, kind of a similar viewpoint on the character and the subject matter. So people should definitely go and check out digging for kryptonite ASAP.

01:02:59
Anthony
Yes. No, please. No, I appreciate the kind words and no, it's fun. It's so funny. The last thing I'll say is, I feel like my perspective now is so skewed because I agree with you historically, and I worked in a comic shop for many years. Can't think of too many people who came in, like, I love Superman. Like, it's a Batman, it's Spider man. It's all that other stuff. But I feel like my perspective now is so skewed because week in and week out, I'm talking to fellow Superman fans and I'm releasing these episodes, and they're being consumed by people who also enjoy Superman. And I'm interacting with those folks. So it's like, in my head, it's like, we all love Superman, but I know that not always the case.

01:03:31
Anthony
And so that's why to do shows like this, to shine a light and share what we love about the character, is a good thing.

01:03:37
Case
Yeah. Well, Anthony, thank you so much for coming on. Do you have social media plugs you want to give?

01:03:43
Anthony
So digging for kryptonite has handles on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram threads. So digging for kryptonite, if you searched, search for it, should find me.

01:03:50
Case
Cool. Cool. J. Mike, how about you? If people want to find you and follow you, where can they go?

01:03:54
Jmike
I am over on Twitter amike 101. You can come hang out, talk, chat, throw some funny memes. I'll try my hardest to respond.

01:04:03
Case
That's fair. That's fair. I mean, it is kind of a dumpster fire of social media these days, so it's hard to really recommend people to check that out. What I can recommend for people to check out is the certain pov discord server. You can find a link in our show notes or on our website, certainpov.com dot, and you can come interact with us directly. We're there. There's great conversations going on the ministeel thread on our server as well as our general comic book channel. So come check that out. It's a really fun time.

01:04:29
Case
And if you are unsure of that but still want to interact with me, you can find me on Twitter and all the other platforms at Case Aiken, except for on Instagram, where I am quetzalcoatl five because I'm holding on to my damn aim screen name from high school for dear life because I was pretentious as hell and into both mythology and legion of superheroes in high school. But check that out, then circle back here for our next episode. Until then, stay super man.

01:05:05
Jmike
Men of Steel is a certain pov production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and case Aiken. The show is scored in edited by Jeff Moonen. And our logo and episode art is by case Aiken.

01:05:27
Case
Hey, Nerf Herders, you sure you want to go with that? Hey, everyone. There we go. More inviting. Have you ever had a movie that you really wanted to love, but something holds you back? Or one that you did love in spite of a flaw? Well, I'm case Aiken. And I'm Sam. Alicea. And on another pass, we sit down with cool guests to look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed, and we try to imagine what could have been done when they were made to give them that little push. We're not experts. We just believe in criticism. Constructive criticism. Sure. So come take another pass at some movies with us. And every now and then, we can celebrate movies that did it on their own, too. You can find us@certainpov.com or wherever you get your podcast. Pass it on cpov, certainpov.com.