How much pressure would it take for the Man of Steel to break? Jesse Fresco joins Case and Jmike to look at a series that asked that question: Irredeemable, written by Mark Waid, drawn by Peter Krause and Diego Barreto.

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Meeting summary:

●      In the latest episode of the podcast, the hosts delve into Mark Waid's comic series 'Irredeemable,' analyzing its critique of superhero tropes and the adage that "absolute power corrupts absolutely." The discussion begins with an introduction to the series and a comparison to Zack Snyder's interpretation of Superman, followed by a character analysis of the Plutonian as an evil Superman analogue, exploring his psychological state and motivations. The hosts further examine supporting characters, the superhero team known as the Paradigm, and the world’s reaction to Plutonian’s descent into villainy. They discuss the narrative structure, key themes, and significant plot developments, including character deaths and the use of flashbacks. Attention is also given to Peter Krause's art style and its effectiveness in storytelling. The conversation concludes with an exploration of the series' legacy, its impact on the superhero genre, and an overall evaluation of its strengths and weaknesses, leaving listeners with recommendations for related works and further content to explore.

Notes:

●      📚 Introduction to Irredeemable (00:00 - 11:12)

●      Discussing Mark Waid's comic series 'Irredeemable'

●      Comparison to Zack Snyder's take on Superman

●      Irredeemable as a commentary on Superman and superhero tropes

●      Exploration of the concept 'absolute power corrupts absolutely'

●      🦸 Character Analysis: The Plutonian (11:13 - 21:26)

●      Plutonian as an evil Superman analogue

●      Discussion of Plutonian's powers and psychological state

●      Comparison to other Superman-like characters in comics

●      Analysis of Plutonian's motivations and descent into villainy

●      🌟 Supporting Characters and World-building (21:26 - 30:17)

●      Examination of other characters in Irredeemable

●      Discussion of the Paradigm (superhero team)

●      Analysis of character dynamics and relationships

●      Exploration of the world's reaction to Plutonian's turn

●      🔍 Narrative Structure and Themes (30:17 - 39:50)

●      Analysis of the story's pacing and structure

●      Discussion of flashbacks and their role in the narrative

●      Exploration of themes such as power, corruption, and responsibility

●      Comparison to other superhero deconstructions like Watchmen

●      💥 Key Plot Points and Twists (39:50 - 49:37)

●      Discussion of major plot developments

●      Analysis of character deaths and their impact

●      Exploration of the alien invasion subplot

●      Examination of the series' approach to violence and consequences

●      🎨 Art and Visual Storytelling (49:37 - 58:18)

●      Discussion of Peter Krause's artwork

●      Comparison to other comic artists and styles

●      Analysis of visual metaphors and symbolism in the series

●      Critique of the art's effectiveness in conveying the story

●      🔮 Series Conclusion and Legacy (58:18 - 01:07:43)

●      Discussion of the series' ending

●      Analysis of the Plutonian's fate and its implications

●      Exploration of the series' impact on superhero comics

●      Comparison to other 'evil Superman' stories in comics

●      📊 Overall Series Evaluation (01:07:44 - 01:16:03)

●      Discussion of the series' strengths and weaknesses

●      Comparison to other works by Mark Waid

●      Analysis of the series' place in superhero comic canon

●      Recommendations for potential readers

●      🎬 Wrap-up and Final Thoughts (01:16:03 - 01:25:28)

●      Final impressions of Irredeemable

●      Discussion of related works and recommendations

●      Promotion of other podcasts and media

●      Closing remarks and contact information for hosts

Transcription

00:00
Case
Let's get into the episode. I don't have an agenda, but I will say we're definitely not going, like, the full story beat by story beat on this one, because that would be 8 hours.

00:08
Jesse
If you're jumping into this, you've probably read the book.

00:11
Case
Yeah, exactly. Like a four hour epic.

00:13
Jmike
We don't need a Snyderverse again.

00:15
Case
No.

00:17
Jesse
Let's place bets on how far we go without mentioning Zack Snyder.

00:23
Case
I can give us over five.

00:25
Jesse
Yeah. Okay, let's do that. Money on the table. Five minutes.

00:28
Case
All right.

00:29
Jesse
See how far we go.

00:30
Case
I'll throw 20 down.

00:32
Jmike
Oh, okay.

00:50
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the men of Steel podcast. I'm case Aiken, and as always, I am joined by my co host, Jmike Folson.

00:58
Jmike
Everybody, prepare to be as confused today as I was earlier when I was reading this.

01:03
Case
I mean, are you confused or are you a bad boy? Are you a sinner, j Mike?

01:09
Jmike
Unfortunately, no. I'm like a giant teddy bear.

01:13
Case
So you're saying that you have redeeming qualities? That you're redeeming?

01:16
Jmike
I hope so. Holy crap. Yeah.

01:18
Case
Well, that's good. And that means that you and I can have, like, a fairly honest conversation about a book that is the exact opposite of that. Because today we are talking about Mark Wade's irredeemable. And to have that conversation, we are joined by Jesse Fresco.

01:32
Jesse
Hello.

01:33
Case
I am back once again, Jesse, thank you for pushing to bring this one. This is a series that I have wanted to talk about on the show, but I always knew that it was going to sort of require a commitment to do a full reread of not the longest series in the world, but also not the shortest.

01:50
Jesse
Yeah, I want to talk about this because it's like evil Superman, but done correctly. There's a lot to unpack with that. It's not just the hey, he went bad, it's the why, the how. What was the point that made him crack?

02:02
Case
Yeah. So for anyone jumping in who is not familiar with the series, irredeemable is Mark waid working with Peter Krause. But Mark Wade is a famously good superman writer.

02:12
Jesse
Oh, yeah.

02:13
Case
One of those guys who, you just ask him to write a Superman story and he's gonna write a damn good Superman story.

02:19
Jesse
He loves a silver age. He loves a Silver Age Superman for real.

02:22
Case
He's also a damn good Captain America writer. He had a legendary Captain America writer. And he's also the person who wrote the stuff with the amalgam of those two characters, super soldier. This is a guy who like, you can just say, write me a Superman story, and he can write a damn fine Superman story. It's surprising for me that we haven't talked about him that much on this series because Mark Wade is actually one of my favorite comic writers of all time. He wrote the series impulse, which is a intensely formative book for me that I don't think I can quite explain to people how much I love it and how much it was part of me figuring out what it meant to be a teenager when it came out that we haven't, like, talked about Mark Wade that much on here.

03:02
Case
So Mark Waid has been an editor and a writer for DC and Marvel, and bounce back and forth between them. This came out in a period where he was kind of frozen out of DC at the time. And so there's a bit of venting about Superman. But you know what? It's not just like I'm mad about the character. It's kind of like when Mark Grunwald did Squadron supreme. It's like the stories that you couldn't tell because they need to be just. Just slightly disconnected from the actual characters in question.

03:27
Case
You know, this is a commentary on a Superman thing by way of doing a supermande analogue and being allowed to really ask these questions of the whole series and see how far you can push the conversation about what do you do when you have a renegade Superman and when Superman goes bad and still have a hopeful ending, which is a surprising component of the series, considering just how terrifying he makes evil Superman.

03:51
Jesse
Yeah. How overpowered he is. It's showing he's near unstoppable. There's almost nothing that can stop him. It shows just how devastating it would be. Like, oh, he could hear you wherever you are on the planet, just as a whisper. Like his, one of his families. They don't. They haven't spoken in, like, 20 years. They use chalkboards to talk to each other because they're terrified of him psychologically. Would that make sense for those people? Probably not. They probably would have sneezed at some point. But it, for the sake of the story, it's. It's a really fascinating scenario.

04:25
Case
I think they were afraid that they knew that the Plutonian could hear them and knew where they were. I thought they, their whole deal was they just didn't want to, like, hear anything that he, that they say.

04:37
Jmike
Yeah.

04:37
Case
Gambling that he wasn't, like, looking at them at the exact moment.

04:41
Jesse
Yeah. Like the fact that he's so powerful. This is clearly like him venting about some Superman stuff that probably was bothering him. What was happening with Superman at the time? What was. Who was the writer on Superman around this time? Who was like, what was the story.

04:54
Case
Is this was around the time of the new 52, really?

04:57
Jmike
Like, 2010, 2011.

04:59
Jesse
Okay, so this is their rebooting. They're restarting and trying to do something fresh. So maybe that bothered him.

05:05
Case
And like I said, he was, like, kind of frozen out.

05:07
Jesse
Maybe it bothered him because he wasn't brought in to work on them.

05:09
Jmike
To be fair, I wouldn't want to be in that either.

05:12
Case
Again, I don't want to present this as being, like, completely a spite work. I don't think this is quite to the degree of, like, Battlestar Galactica was for Ronaldy Moore after coming off of a brief tenure on Star Voyager. That one is very clearly like, this is my rebuttal to everything being set here.

05:29
Jesse
Yeah, let me show you how it's.

05:31
Case
Done, because I think that the end point and the fact that we end this book, and there's just gonna be spoilers, guys, just be prepared. We're gonna freeze because we're freestyling this one. We have some things that we want to discuss on this one, but we're not gonna go beat by beat. And I just going to drop, like, references to how this all ends or things like that. So the very last point about this is that the essence of the Plutonian is put out there throughout the multiverse for all people to take on memetically and try to get it right. And so in the story, this becomes like, oh, Superman is the final product to the plutonium being a beta test and is a success where the Plutonian fails.

06:15
Case
I think that is trying to argue that Superman is the one who got it right and that there is ultimately a path for good. The theme of, does absolute power corrupt? Absolutely is a running theme of this book, regardless of where it comes down on. And I would argue that the majority of the book is presenting at least, that it is a very corrupting influence. There is the ultimate argument with Gilgames at the end that he has never been, like, really challenged in that way, that he has always stayed a good person who has power. And again, like, the fact that we get to the point where it's like, okay, now, Superman could be like, that final version of that. I think that is a rebuttal to the question of absolute power corrupting absolutely in that it doesn't have to. That there.

06:59
Case
That there is a scenario where it can be uncorruptible, like.

07:05
Jesse
Yeah, kind of reminds me that I was reading the companion series to this story called incorruptible, which was happening. I think it started about midway through irredeemable's release schedule. It's not as good. There's a few peaks where incorruptible gets just a little bit better than irredeemable. Just a little bit. But on the whole, irredeemable is the better story. There's one part where Max damage his abilities, who's the greatest supervillain of all time, and he sees what the Plutonian does, and he's just like, oh, God, I can't do this anymore. He just flips him back to being a good guy. And so he completely just burns all of his money. Burns his, like, supercar that was stolen. He has a 16 year old psychic named jail bait that he clearly hooked up with. Not okay. Very not okay. It's even then it wasn't okay.

07:52
Jesse
But, yeah, he basically just. Just goes good cold turkey. And his powers are, the longer he stays awake, the tougher and stronger and smarter he becomes. So he's working on a mathematical equation to somehow find a way to take down the Plutonian. And he's so close. He's been awake for, like, three weeks. He's so close to figuring it out. He's been dosing himself up with caffeine and amphetamine, staying awake. And right before he figures out the answer passes out, he loses it. That one little peak, I was like, oh, it's so good. And then it just kind of, from there, it just kind of becomes like, yeah, just punch, punch. It's the lesser canny b grade version. It's good, but it's nowhere near, you.

08:31
Case
Know, a response or a side view.

08:35
Jesse
It's the inverse perspective of plutonians.

08:37
Case
And I think that the general concept of irredeemable is so strong, but it is very clearly, like, we want to have a conversation about Superman, and, like, what does dark Superman really mean? Come on, people.

08:49
Jesse
Yeah. How far in the episode are we? Okay, so this is doing the Snyderverse correctly.

08:54
Jmike
We waited on purpose.

08:56
Jesse
This is the way you do it. This is dark Superman collusion. Do it. You show the reason. You show why he cracks. I actually think Zack Snyder, because this came out. This finished up one year before man of Steel got released. And so I think maybe Snyder read this and said, oh, that's the superman I want to do, not realizing that's not what you're supposed to do, because it's. There's a lot of similarities between the character of Bill Hart again, and or Jonathan Kent. A lot of similarities, like, don't share your power. You have to always be ready and be prepared, you know? But, but he's an asshole to his kid.

09:39
Case
I mean, slightly inverted in that Bill Hartigan is, like, really pushing him to become a superhero in the long run, but.

09:45
Jesse
But not respecting him as a person.

09:47
Case
Right. But, yeah, I take your point. And it is interesting to think that, well, there are those bits in man of steel setting up the idea that he might be overwhelmed by his powers and people might not be appreciative and thus, you know, in, you know, in sites like anger in him kind of thing. So I take your point.

10:06
Jesse
Yeah, it's doing the Snyderverse correctly. I had a note, and I wrote a bunch of notes while I was reading this. I said, lands on the political, moral and philosophical points. The Snyderverse botched. Like, the political standpoint that the world's wrecked. Like, it's a mess. Every country's at war with itself. The one thing I think did not age very well in this book is the United nations moment where our old ambassador, United Nations, John Bolton, literally just John Bolton, is there and gets frozen and then shattered into a thousand pieces.

10:37
Jmike
It was actually supposed to be him because I was like, he looks really familiar.

10:40
Jesse
That was, that's John. That's, that's John Bolton. Yeah. It's like, I mean, Mark Wade leans very left. Very, very left. And he's actually publicly criticized Zack Snyder's take on Superman and said, this is not the way you're supposed to portray this character. I think Grant Morrison also said the same thing. Like, the two seminal writers of Superman were just like, yeah, Zack, why'd you fuck it up? Irredeemable is the version he created. Essentially, it lands on the political points in this book that Snyder just missed. Cause it just devolves into just punching shit.

11:15
Case
Yeah. And it's a book that also respects Superman in a way that a lot of material doesn't necessarily from a power standpoint, because it's not just that he's a big, scary, like, dragon type character. He is so infinitely dangerous in all ways.

11:29
Jesse
Say one wrong thing, he'll just blow you away.

11:32
Case
And when he blows you away, like, how little effort does it take him to destroy a city? How little effort does it take him to destroy large swaths of the United States and carve his own symbol into it?

11:42
Jmike
Seconds.

11:43
Jesse
Jesus Christ. Yeah, Jesus Christ, man. That was insane. I will say that the one part of this story that doesn't work for me, it's going along pretty well. And then there's just a dip. In the series for me is when he gets thrown into the middle of the neutron star in the insane asylum. That's the one part where I was.

12:03
Jmike
Like, the trees are freaky.

12:06
Jesse
The story is more interesting on earth than stuff in the insane asylum because it just kind of devolves into him going further and further.

12:14
Case
It's like a Dante's inferno thing, kind.

12:17
Jesse
Of, but Dante's inferno, he learns something at the end of the story. In this case, he just gets back to earth, like, oh, I'm just going to be evil again. You could have just skipped over.

12:23
Case
I find it charming because it is like an evil fairy tale. Like, each person he finds a way to fix their problem and make them a team member with. He recruits each one of them and sees their value. It is an interesting way for him to all of a sudden have an unstoppable army with him when he shows back up on earth.

12:44
Jesse
That's true.

12:44
Jmike
He doesn't really have to convince them, though.

12:46
Jesse
It's like, hey, you want to get out?

12:49
Jmike
Welcome to the dark side. We have cookies. Yeah, like, oh, sure, whatever.

12:52
Jesse
Cool.

12:52
Jmike
Oh, I didn't even have to ask you twice.

12:54
Jesse
Yeah, sure. I mean, the physics of how that works, like getting chucked into a middle of a neutron star, don't think about it. It's like. Like physics, logic. Like, don't worry about it. The neutron star, I mean, at least.

13:06
Case
They show that it is difficult to do.

13:08
Jmike
Yeah.

13:09
Case
My complaint about it is that this is the area where I feel like the story kind of drags, where there's a little bit of figuring out what needs to be done necessarily to wrap up the entire story. Mark Wade is famously more of a pantser rather than a planner, or at least he has self identified as one. I'm thinking about in his foreword to the invincible trade paperback, talking about how he plans out cliffhangers and doesn't necessarily always have the solution when he writes that cliffhanger and is like, well, I'll figure it out. I could imagine needing to vamp for a couple issues there.

13:41
Case
And I feel like when the alien race takes the plutonian hostage and, like, puts him to work in their slave pits and then, like, wipes out the slave pit and then, like, ties him up and then drops him in this prison, like, I feel that's like, okay. And then this happens. And then this happens.

13:56
Jesse
Yeah.

13:56
Case
It's not really advancing his story. It's just being like, well, he's occupied while everything else is happening on earth, and I feel like you didn't need to, like, spend as much time doing that.

14:05
Jesse
Can I say something that's gonna sound really offensive? And I mean this in the kindest possible way? Is Mark Wade, the JJ Abrams of the comics industry. Oh, God. I'll figure it out.

14:15
Case
I hardly, No, I hardly think so.

14:20
Jesse
I'm making a joke. I'm being facetious. I'm just. I'm just making a joke. But, yeah, it. You can see it in some of his other work, like, even kingdom come, there's some issues where part of that story is, like, does he have a direction here? Does he have a real solution for how he's going to end this? I mean, yes, it is. Following the book of revelations again, I'm.

14:37
Case
Not trying to, like, say that he's just throwing twists out there for the sake of having twists. I'm just saying this is a spot where the series felt like it was vamping for a minute, which happens with books like, invincible is another one of my favorite books of all time and has a very big, like, vamping section right after the Viltrumite war. Yeah, that happens when it is, like, a creator own book that, like, goes for any sort of length of time. And I just feel like it could have been just, like, slightly shorter, but we're talking about, like, maybe, like, five issues less total of the whole thing.

15:04
Jesse
Being captured by the aliens and the neutron star. That's really where it drags. Once he gets back to Earth, this story just kicks back up again.

15:10
Case
Yeah. Cause he could have combined the neutron star thing with, like, the mines that he was on for the first time.

15:13
Jesse
Yeah. Why not make the prison also a workstation?

15:16
Case
Right. And that's the only area that I really feel like I need to, like, throw out there is, like, this is a thing because the rest of the book, like, flows pretty well. Yeah. On my reread, I was, like, appreciating how the opening arc. Every issue starts with a. A flashback to when the Plutonian was good, and then the rest of the story is from that character's perspective, like, viewing the world that they're in. That's a very sound way to introduce the character and keep the structure going. He's a bastard, and once he goes bad, the bad things he does are very bad, and I love that it doesn't go away. I think it's on the neutron star. No, it's around there where he kills an alien and strips its flesh.

15:54
Jesse
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

15:55
Case
You never see it to create leather to replace his costume, which, by the way, confirms that the redhead version of his costume is leather.

16:01
Jesse
Yeah. You have to. What is it called? Is it called tanning leather? Is that what, is that what it's called?

16:05
Jmike
Yeah.

16:06
Jesse
You know how long that takes? A long fucking time.

16:10
Case
He has super speed control of physics.

16:12
Jesse
I feel like this is also a response to some of the Superman stuff from the nineties because the power justification for what they gave to him, like, his super strength and his speed and his ice breath and his lasers, it's all. It's actually reflective of the 1990s version of Superman, where he became lightning and turned blue. Remember this?

16:35
Case
Well, sort of, but even that, even before that, this reflects the nineties era, like, the John Byrne era of, like, superman powers in terms of how they worked, where it was more psionic than it was physical in nature.

16:48
Jesse
Yeah.

16:48
Case
And this was taken, like, to, like, an extra degree. I mean, again, we've looked at this several times now on the series. A big one was when we looked at miracle Mandy, which is very much like psionic powers being used to justify Superman type ability sets.

17:01
Jesse
I love the justification of how he's able to lift giant objects and they don't fall apart.

17:07
Case
Yeah.

17:07
Jesse
Like, doesn't he, like, spread out his body mass or something like that to adjust the molecular structure of the thing he's carrying?

17:15
Case
Yeah, he's basically controlling the mass of everything. Like, we did an episode on a unified theory for Superman's powers, and that was, like, doing that basic pitch right there.

17:25
Jesse
So does that explain how Superman carries that giant building in the Joss Whedon cut of Justice League?

17:30
Case
Yeah, like, if his powers are psionic in nature, really?

17:33
Jmike
I keep going back to that.

17:35
Jesse
It's so stupid.

17:37
Case
I mean, why don't we talk about that for a minute? Because this series actually does kind of go into the ridiculous powers of a silver age Superman type and establish it as being psionic in nature. And I rather like that theory in general. And again, I like it in general. Do I like it necessarily for Superman specifically? I don't know, because I do rather like a golden age power set. I do rather like the earth's gravity story for it all. But for a general Superman type character to be psionically powered 100%, I have fan created in my head, like, so many characters where it is some variation of that for their power set. And that, I think, is fine. I love the con l, Connor Kent, like, nineties Superboy. Again, psionic powers, you know, explaining all of his abilities. So I'm here for it.

18:22
Case
And I find it fun that, like, he doesn't know he's doing it. It makes me think of Mark Gruenwald's Hyperion, who did not know that he was an eternal. And a lot of his powers were coming from that, like, suite of eternals, powers which included, like, mass manipulation and telekinesis and all that. I like the idea of super beings who are so impressive but aren't even beginning to tap into, like, the full suite of abilities they have at their disposal.

18:48
Jesse
It feels like because it's not an IP character, because this is not Superman, you're able to get away with a lot more. If this was, like, Superman in DC continuity Superman, it would bring up all kinds of questions of, like, well, why didn't he do that in the previous storylines? So by making it a not IP character, it actually gets away with a lot.

19:10
Case
Yeah. I remember the last time that they announced, like, Superman's having a new power and it was like he had this, like, Nova ability. Yeah. The solar flare, which was just like, that's not a new power. That's just him using, like, full blast heat vision.

19:23
Jesse
Yeah.

19:23
Case
Like, it's not doing anything new.

19:25
Jesse
Yeah.

19:25
Case
And it's, we've seen this before with superman analogs who were solar based. Like, Apollo did that exact thing in the opening arc of the authority. Like, yeah, not weird.

19:35
Jesse
Not weird at all.

19:37
Case
And, like, that's how small they have to, the increments of adding new abilities to Superman have to be, like, where it's barely a new power each time. And I guess that kind of goes back to the earliest ones because they established pretty early on he had x ray vision. And then they thought that x rays created heat. And so it would be the heat of my x ray vision has ignited this thing.

19:59
Jesse
That's not how x rays work.

20:00
Case
And then eventually someone pointed out that x rays don't create heat. And so that's when he gained heat fission as a separate superpower.

20:07
Jesse
Oh, that's how that came to be. Okay.

20:10
Case
Yeah. It's so, like, sometimes, like, his powers are very incremental. Like, oh, he can blow on a thing really hard. Oh, he blows on it and it gets colder. Okay.

20:19
Jesse
At this point, there's so many Superman stories that to just invent a new one, I mean, you could invent the idea that he has telepathy because he can hear the neurons in your brain firing. You could invent any bullshit you want for Superman at this point.

20:32
Case
Yeah. That said, the way they handled it in this book where you could, like, look at people's hippocampus and, like, see their most recent memories.

20:40
Jesse
That is cool.

20:41
Case
Was incredible.

20:43
Jesse
That is clever. That is an interesting way of doing it. Yeah. Adding in the way in which you can see their previous actions that we can kind of predict the future a little bit. Gets a little Philip K. Dick right there. What's that story that he did?

20:56
Case
Oh, minority report.

20:57
Jesse
Yeah. Minority report.

20:58
Jmike
Oh, yeah.

20:58
Jesse
Seeing just barely into the future a little bit.

21:01
Case
Yeah. I mean, like, I thought it was a really fun way of addressing, like, okay, these are, like, psychic things, but we've already come up with all the reasons why psychic powers wouldn't work in this context because of what they are. I just like the idea of him starting to get a good idea of his powers. Like, he is literally the infant terrible character from the Fantastic Four.

21:18
Jesse
Yeah.

21:18
Case
Or Trelayne from Star Trek, the child God whose parents show up to whoop his ass.

21:24
Jesse
Oh, yeah.

21:25
Case
At a certain time.

21:25
Jesse
Oh, God. The reveal of who his parents are. Can we go over that real quick? That's something. That's weird.

21:33
Case
I found it rather cool that they were just, like, space entities that were like, humans are fucking awesome. We want to learn more about them. And then the prison was just that if they moved, they would kill a third of our population. And so they couldn't, like, as a dead man switch effectively. Like, that's so cool.

21:49
Jesse
Yeah.

21:50
Jmike
Was not expecting that.

21:51
Jesse
Yeah. And also the fact that the way in which they have to talk to him, they have to send him deep into the future when there's already the. What is it they referred the universal heat death, where all the stars have burned out and it's nothing but black.

22:03
Case
Which I'm just gonna plug this one. Alan Moore's story on Mister Majestic, where set at the heat death of the universe, where it's him and, like, four other living, like, the last living things, like, huddling around, like, the last energy sources that they find. It is an amazing story. Also doing the heat death of the universe with a Superman character. So I just wanted to plug that one.

22:22
Jesse
Mister Mitchell. Islik. I've never heard of that one.

22:23
Case
Yeah, it's a really cool one. But this is also really cool. And he uses. So the Plutonian is fully a bastard at this point. Like, yeah, he is manipulative and like, he's like.

22:34
Jesse
He's like, begging them to give him another chance secretly. He's, like, waiting for his chance to fuck him over.

22:41
Case
Right.

22:41
Jesse
He'd fuck over his own parents. Like, what an asshole, man. Like we said, the title lives up to its name, like, irredeemable. By the end of this story, there is no redemption for this guy.

22:51
Case
Yeah.

22:51
Jesse
Qubit keeps trying to find a way to turn him good again. He is forever desperate after a while, desperate to not kill this guy, and he just can't find a reason by the very end.

23:03
Case
And that's the thing that also kind of feels like it drags a little bit. Like, qubit keeps doing the same play.

23:09
Jesse
Yeah.

23:10
Case
While he kind of sort of gets it right at the very end, it still only would come up because he allowed it to get that far.

23:17
Jesse
How many more people died as collateral damage because he decided to not kill him with the candle wax bullet?

23:22
Case
Right.

23:23
Jmike
Well, to him or Betty.

23:25
Case
And who would have been. Who would have been spared specifically, the whole situation? Like, yeah, so many people die, but, like, in a scenario where he's not there, what happens? Well, I guess the aliens don't invade earth, which they never were going to, because that entire, like, it's not like it throws a monkey wrench in existing plans. Like, there's no scenario at the very end of this, wherever, because the Plutonian was there, they were able to deal with it. Aside from maybe arguing that destroying that prison was a net positive for the universe, just because it's terrible to have, like, a weird prison like that, maybe it's hard to really say because of how bad the things that they were putting in this prison were, I think it'd be probably.

24:01
Jesse
It's a positive to keep that prison there because all the people that are in that prison are awful.

24:07
Case
Yeah.

24:08
Jesse
So it's not really a positive that he blew it up. I mean, did he blow it up? They kind of just let it ran.

24:15
Case
Through, tear through the thing and, like, rip the whole thing apart.

24:18
Jesse
Okay.

24:19
Case
My point is that, yeah, it's probably good that prison exists and the people who died because of the Plutonian, especially when he comes back the second time after being, like, locked up and, like, burns his insignia in the continent, a lot of cities are destroyed.

24:34
Jesse
Oh, God. Yeah.

24:35
Case
Not just, like, the big one, but, like, a lot of cities are destroyed. Like, I am sad that I forgot that detail when I was doing my Superman analog video on irredeemable on the Plutonian, because I talk a lot about, like, his war crimes at the beginning of the series, and I totally forgot to, like, bring up the ones at the end where it's just like, yep. No, he's truly a monster in some really terrible ways.

24:56
Jesse
Full on scorched earth by the end of this series, right? Why he doesn't just, like, punch a hole through the planet, I don't know.

25:04
Case
And that gets back to why the prison scene is a little bit weird, where he's, like, come to earth with me, where we can reign as gods. What is actually his end goal for this one? I get him being angry and lashing out and really fucking up things, but at a certain point, just go wander and find a new place to be happy. Keep going until you find your people.

25:21
Jesse
That's the biggest issue I have with the series. That's the biggest problem I've always had with traditional villains, where I'm going to destroy the world. It's like, dude, you live here too. You need food like we do, apparently. He needs to sleep. He needs to eat. You know, he needs water. In general, physiologically needs the same things that we do. He needs to breathe in some capacity. So it's odd that he wants to destroy the planet, because does he, though?

25:46
Jmike
Does he really need to breathe? Because he was chilling at the bottom of the ocean for a while, and then he also went to moon, was, like, chilling out, trying to think.

25:54
Case
Let's assume that he could find another world because he knows there are other worlds. Like, oh, yeah, the paradigm had saved other worlds plenty of times. So he knows that there are other life bearing places that he could go.

26:06
Jesse
Why not just pull a Doctor Manhattan and go to Mars?

26:08
Case
Either shit or get off the pot. Either just destroy the planet or move on. Either of them doesn't matter. Ultimately. That's why I think him being fully taken off world makes the universe too small or makes Earth too small to really matter at a certain point. But excluding that point, I think that it is a really fun journey for this character that, again, just runs a few beats too long. But I do appreciate, like, getting all the way through. Like, finding out his origin story is really cool. Seeing his parents is really fun. I love the way that they try to manipulate each other. Those are cool sequences, and it's a good visualization of that. I love the history leading up to the character. I love the weird fucking demon character that he has to contain.

26:48
Jesse
Oh, yeah. Is that supposed to be Etrigan the demon? Is that what that's supposed to be?

26:51
Case
I think it's supposed to be a character like that. You know, like, all these are very archive.

26:55
Jesse
A lot of these are analogs of DC and Marvel character.

26:57
Jmike
He reminded me of the demon dude from invincible for a second. Demon.

27:03
Case
Well, who is also very clearly, like, maybe not so much Etrigan but, like, hellboy kind of theme.

27:08
Jesse
Yeah, I can see that.

27:09
Case
It's all going back to, like, the demon type character. And I think with, like, the word system that, like, he uses to, like, come in and, like, through possessing a character is.

27:18
Jesse
Yeah, a lot of these.

27:19
Case
I think Etrigan is very much so. Yes.

27:21
Jesse
Yeah. A lot of these are clearly, very clearly analog versions of Marvel and DC characters. Like Cupid is clearly mister fantastic. It's mister fantastic. Like this just. He looks the same, you know, and you have. Who's the guy with the wings? Remember his name? Gil.

27:37
Case
Gilgamesh.

27:38
Jesse
Definitely is Hawk.

27:39
Case
Yeah, definitely a hawkman.

27:40
Jesse
Yeah, yeah.

27:41
Case
Like the golden age Hawkman character.

27:43
Jmike
The whole I've been alive for 2000 years thing.

27:45
Jesse
Yeah, yeah, there's no. There's no wonder one analogue. I was kind of surprised by that. There's no wonder Woman analogue.

27:51
Case
Maybe bet noir, but, I mean, she feels more like a black canary type.

27:57
Jesse
Character or a black widow type or something like that.

27:59
Case
Yeah, or something like that. I'm just saying, like, once we see her powers unlocked at the end of the series.

28:05
Jesse
Yeah.

28:05
Case
Which I forgot how epic that last fight is, by the way.

28:08
Jesse
Oh, God.

28:09
Case
The last, like, big fight that occurs.

28:10
Jesse
Jesus Christ.

28:12
Case
It's so interesting that it was with Bette Noir, who is, like, up until that point, just like a marksman.

28:16
Jesse
Yeah, well, it's like, oh, she does have Modius inside of her brain. Can we talk about the weird homoerotic thing between.

28:23
Case
Oh, yes, I want to get to that now. Okay, we're getting to that now. Okay. Yeah. So the Modius plot is one that I figured we would spend some time talking about because the idea that Superman and his Lex Luthor are pining for each other sexually.

28:39
Jesse
Yeah.

28:39
Case
Is actually kind of fun here.

28:41
Jesse
Yeah.

28:42
Case
You know, it is twisted because we're talking about a supervillain who loves Superman so much when he, like, really kind of gets into it and, like, uses his, like, very purple prose to describe it all. It's a lot. It's a lot to take in. And I could see why it would be, like, kind of creepy. It kind of makes me think of unwanted when they go out of their way to talk about the depravities that some of the characters in this, like, secret society Modi's is supposed to be the worst person. Like, honestly, if he wants to fuck you should be like, what have I done with my life?

29:14
Jmike
How did I get to this point?

29:15
Jesse
Yeah.

29:16
Jmike
Oh, my gosh.

29:17
Jesse
Modius is a fascinating character because he's not even human by the very end, he's just like digital information, just hopping between individuals. I mean, he's that smart, he's that clever. He's the complete inverse of Mister Fantastic. He's the exact opposite of qubit, you know? And that's, of course, the way in which qubit stops him.

29:33
Jmike
Well, one of the many times I was like, wait, what just happened? In this freaking comic, when they're traveling to the prison and he's explaining plutonium powers to quibbit, and he's like, oh, yeah. I kept erasing your memory so I would be the only one.

29:45
Jesse
Oh, that's so fucked up. Yeah.

29:47
Jmike
And I was like, what?

29:48
Jesse
You had the answer multiple times. Oh, yeah, I know. I erased your memories.

29:52
Jmike
Remember that one time you couldn't stop sneezing for a week? That was me.

29:54
Jesse
You just couldn't stand the fact that somebody beat him to the punch. You just couldn't stand the fact that somebody got it before he did.

30:00
Jmike
It's like, what am I reading?

30:01
Jesse
Yeah, I mean, is it. Is it Lex Luthor? I also got vibes of, like, mister sinister.

30:07
Jmike
I mean, I would say reverse Flash. He's on that level for me, but.

30:12
Case
He'S not archetypally the reverse flash. Although you could say that there is the similarity in that. There is this stalker love connection between them.

30:19
Jmike
It was me, Barry.

30:21
Case
But I mean, he's archetypally the mad scientist equivalent to your strongman archetype. So, yes, Lex Luthor, but also, yeah, Doctor Doom and lots of these characters who are the mad scientist rival to the powerhouse superhero. You know, it's like the unbreakable.

30:37
Jesse
Like, I was literally flashing my bransy. There's two kinds of villains. Where's the one that fights fear with his fist? The other one fights him with his mind.

30:45
Case
Right. And this is the fights him with his mind. One, yeah. And so, yes, I would say Lex Luthor is, like, a valid comparison point. But, I mean, it's not literally one to one, especially going away from, like, the businessman Lex of the eighties, but looking at, like, silver age Lex. Like, yeah, there's some comparison points there.

31:02
Jesse
Yeah.

31:02
Jmike
I mean, is it a. I feel like silver race? Lex just wanted to better than Superman. He wanted to prove that, like, he was the best.

31:09
Jesse
Well, it's also, there's clearly a racist element to Lex, and you couldn't quite put that on the page at that time. Now, you can do that. I have a feeling that's what the James Gunn Superman story is going to be like. Lex just can't stand the fact that this alien from another planet somehow is better than him. Just can't stand it. There's a clear racist element to Lex Luthor, and the Snyderverse totally botched that by turning it into, like, Superman is a God like character. And my dad was religious and he beat me, therefore God was beating me. Those are the logic points. You have to get back to the white. Lex Luthor is terrible as a character in Batman v Superman anyways, so Modius.

31:45
Case
Is that way, though.

31:47
Jesse
Modius is not that way.

31:48
Case
Modius is. They go out of their way to describe how much of a sociopath he is. Like, he really just, like, does whatever he wants for the sake of it and has no conception of, like, how their emotions would work in these situations. Like, he doesn't understand people's rationales hiding.

32:03
Jesse
Inside his sidekick's brain. Just as a trojan horse is so funny.

32:07
Jmike
Are we gonna talk about that too?

32:08
Jesse
Yeah, can we talk about that? That weird homoerotic between samsara and plutonium? That's a little strange.

32:17
Case
Well, again, we are talking about twisting and jabbing at all of the archetypes that go into comics in general, but especially, like, silver age stuff, which is going to include the, like, seduction of the innocent, rebellion against comics that occurred prior to that.

32:32
Jmike
Yeah.

32:32
Case
So I think it's worth, like, noting, you know, it's the same way, like, that watchmen turned everything from Charleston into, like, king stuff.

32:40
Jesse
It's true. Yeah. Also, the character of Hornet is clearly, like, nightwing. It's so there's the, also Batman or Hornet or whatever. Any kind of. He looks a lot more like.

32:52
Case
He looks like Nightwing more.

32:53
Jesse
But, yeah, but there's also issues of. There's one moment of sexual assault in this that bothered me a lot. I mean, but there's multiple sections that bothered me.

33:01
Jmike
I was like, which one?

33:02
Jesse
Yeah, there's the one in the first storyline where it's like he's forcing the guy to rape the woman and he's telling the woman to save. Oh, yeah, there's that. Which is incredibly fucked up.

33:11
Jmike
I wasn't sure if that was a flashback or.

33:13
Jesse
No, it's.

33:14
Jmike
Has multiple flashbacks.

33:15
Jesse
Clearly, plutonium is getting off to it. This is really fucked up. When the Vespans take Plutonian away, there's a moment when Carrie pulls Caden into him and kisses her like that. Yeah, World War Two sailor photo. She had a problem with him doing that earlier on, right after her brother died. And he was like, no, get away from me. But in that one, she's like, okay with it.

33:36
Jmike
I feel like he kind of caught her off guard again and she never judged.

33:39
Case
Kind of scared of him now.

33:40
Jesse
Like, yeah, that is true.

33:42
Jmike
So you kind of flipped the switch in a major way.

33:46
Case
So Modius, I think, is a really interesting take of that. Sort of like, fetishizing of the dynamic between, like, the hero, the villain.

33:55
Jesse
Yeah, it's so intense.

33:57
Case
Yeah.

33:57
Jesse
These two have been at war for so long, it's like, how is it that the Plutonian hasn't stopped him, right.

34:04
Case
And the fact that neither of them are quite clear how they want to approach the relationship going forward. Like, even Plutonian is like kind of like at times almost into it. But ultimately, if we go off of ladder theory, if you remember that for all my early two thousands nerds, Plutonian is the one higher ranking on the latter in this relationship. And so, like, he sort of rejects Modius because Modius is going to keep chasing him and, like, doing him favors.

34:29
Jesse
Ultimately taking out members of the paradigm along the way.

34:33
Case
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because, you know, evil bastard. But he's a useful evil bastard and he'll do more for him that way. Oh my God, that's so gross that I just referenced ladder theory for this. But it does apply.

34:44
Jesse
The enemy of my enemy is my friend or lover in this case.

34:48
Case
Right.

34:49
Jesse
Jeeze. By the end, when he's just in bets head, that is lair to the point where you can make a fucking cake out of it. Jesus Christ, dude. Literally. Modius living inside of bet Noir's head. His ex girlfriend, who she was cheating on Gilgamesh the entire time, and she has the answer in her brain of how to stop him. And now she's been taken over by the greatest supervillain of all time and they're fighting, which is metaphorical of fucking. So clearly, like that massive explosion at the end when they just decimate an entire city, you know, man of steel style. It really does look like the ending of man of Steel. It doesn't feel like a fight scene between the two of them. Like, right as they kiss, a massive explosion happens. It lays it on pretty thick.

35:39
Case
That's a strength of Mark Wade here in terms of creating the stakes when he needed to. Like, Plutonian has been established for pretty much the whole series as being invulnerable enough. But there are things that can, like, do damage to him.

35:54
Jesse
Yeah.

35:55
Case
The fact that, like, survivors able to fight with him, the aliens are when he's in the alien prison or the Vespin's teleportation tech that works on him. These are all things that they can use to establish that he's invulnerable, but not, like, completely invulnerable. Like, you can theoretically beat him in a fight. And then to have bete noir all of a sudden be revealed to be this powerhouse, Wade shockingly pulls off, like, this, like, bait and switch on a character who has been around this whole time but has not been that level of power. Although there have been moments of hinting that, like, oh, there's something cool going on with how her guns work and how all that works. But to finally reveal, like, oh, no. It's, like, sue storm type, where, like, it's not that.

36:32
Case
Just she's invisible, that she's actually, like, so powerful. Like, she could go up against Green Lanterns.

36:37
Jesse
Yeah, I do think that the end of the series where she's revealed being, like, just living this life of excess, she, like, just walked away from the paradigm, and she's living, like, in this beach house with a bunch of hungry dudes. I was like, why? Where'd this come from? It's just to get to the point where she is revealed as actually being this powerhouse. Like, if she was still with the paradigm at that time, there'd be no way to get her in the same place with Modius so she could be taken over.

37:06
Case
Mm.

37:06
Jesse
That's the one get out of jail free card I will give the series. It makes no sense why she just fucked off. It really does not make any sense. She disappointed her father and everybody else around that she didn't kill Plutonian, but qubit didn't do that either, multiple times. So why is she upset about it?

37:22
Jmike
Because she was the first one. She could have done something when it first popped off, and she felt super.

37:26
Jesse
He wasn't crazy then.

37:27
Jmike
Well, that. That ended the. The whole affair thing, which wasn't really a fair, because they weren't married, but.

37:34
Jesse
That doesn't mean anything. Like, she was still with Gilgamesh because.

37:38
Jmike
She went to, like. She went through, like, this entire, like, flashback trying to explain it all away, and I was like, chick, you just cheated on your boy. Also.

37:45
Jesse
I think that he'll go ahead. The whole thing with Gilgamesh is a little bit messy because he's been alive for how long? Like, thousands and thousands of years. You tell me he has thousands. Tell me he's never been cheated on.

37:55
Jmike
That's what black Volt was saying. Black lightning, black volt.

37:59
Case
It's just volts.

38:01
Jesse
It's just volts. They even pointed out, like, yes. I'm a black man with lightning. Yes. It's cliche.

38:05
Jmike
That was hilarious.

38:08
Jesse
Is it. Is it in bad taste that he's the first one to get killed?

38:11
Jmike
Was he?

38:11
Jesse
Because I feel like Samsara is technically the first one to get killed. Although. No, no. Scylla is. He's the first one to die.

38:17
Jmike
Yeah.

38:17
Case
Well, no, because Hornet dies right at the beginning of the series.

38:20
Jesse
That's right. That kicks it off, then, Samsara. But is it in bad taste to get rid of volt?

38:25
Case
No, he's not the first one to go by any stretch at that point. Like, we have lost so many people.

38:31
Jmike
Why can't he fly?

38:32
Case
Because that's idiosyncrasies of his powers. He's more black lightning than Black Vulcan, and that's why he can't fly is ultimately the answer. But Jesus Christ. But I mean, like, I think the series does a really good job of making the power sets of these characters, like, kind of interesting. Like, Volt talks about how he can't work a job anymore because, like, any. If he touches any electronics that aren't specially tailored for him, specifically, he destroys them. And that's why he takes money, which invokes the sort of Luke Cage kind of hero for hire kind of archetype.

39:04
Jesse
Yeah. Tony also says that he has that problem. Like, he can't feel anything because he's invulnerable. He can't physically feel anything. That's a problem, I think. Don't they also go into that in that Luke Cage show where Jessica Jones hooks up with him?

39:16
Case
That's a common trope of invulnerability in general, to not be able to feel things. Max damage also addresses that in the series.

39:23
Jesse
Yeah, yeah. Max damage can't feel anything.

39:26
Case
So the idea of that is certainly there. I think that the series explores where those kinds of powers are detrimental to you and has those moments of, like, oh, and also makes cool different powers. You know, like Gilgames, who is obviously, Gilgamesh is their Hawkman character. And apparently he seems to be, like, super strong with, like, the spear of destiny or some other kind of ancient artifact. He's like, they're Thor.

39:50
Jesse
Awesome, heavy religion, big christian mythology because he has the seeds of the Garden of Eden. He knows where to find those reference.

39:58
Case
Like that in that mythology specifically. But, like, you know, the idea that there's all this stuff is, like, all myth or whatever because, you know, we don't really deal with, like, I mean.

40:06
Jesse
They literally dig into the earth and find the world tree.

40:09
Case
Right. So I'm just saying that he is their wonder woman. He is their Thor. He is their Hawkman. Like, all kind of rolled into one. And, like, that's an interesting element. You know, we talked about how Bette Noir's powers are really interesting and atypical. You know, like, she is their gun person, which also kind of covers their archer type characters in being trickshot type people, but it's because she has, like, mini gravity wells. Like, that's so cool. And, like, it kind of makes her the black widows. Or there is the vibe, for me, of black canary, but, like, it's almost irrelevant to her sonic powers. It's more just like the kind of plain clothes ass kicker on the team. But then let's talk about the brothers. Let's talk about Scylla and Charybdis, who goes on to become survivor.

40:48
Jesse
Yeah.

40:48
Case
I find them so interesting. First of all, they're like the green lanterns of the group, and that their powers are linked is an idea that I had fucking played with. With my own fan characters. And then the series came out, and I was like, well, I can't do that now.

40:59
Jesse
I always thought they were the wonder twins, and.

41:01
Case
Yeah, like, that idea also kind of plays out there as well. This idea that they have, like, roughly two green lanterns at the start of the series. One dies, and then the other one is all of a sudden, like, so powerful that he's able to take on and apparently win against the Plutonian, which is ridiculous. Ridiculous levels of power sets up that this character is like, okay, well, now this is the powerhouse who has moved into the vacuum, which, if you think about it from, like, a geopolitical standpoint, reflects, like, so many situations in how, like, nations act when they, like, take over conquered territory.

41:32
Jesse
Yeah. There's always a worse person to fill the power vacuum.

41:35
Case
Right. And so survivor very quickly starts over promising and pushing the members of the paradigm away.

41:43
Jesse
Yeah.

41:43
Case
And being upset when people don't, like, respect him enough in the times of him announcing victory. Yeah.

41:49
Jesse
When he screams at them, like, why aren't you happy? It's like, dude, you're a psychopath just like him. You're crazy. Clearly, he's got some level of megalomania, narcissistic personality. You know what it is? It's the ending of Grant Morris run on all Stars Superman. When Lex Luthor gets Superman's powers, it's that ten pages where he gets the powers of Superman. He's like, I can see all of reality shaping, changing around me. He gets the power to fly. He gets super strength. He's got all those powers, and he's using it for all the wrong reasons.

42:24
Case
I mean, he's certainly a bad superman in the sense that he's not particularly good at his job. He's not competent is part of the thing.

42:34
Jesse
Is there analog version of that? Like, a Superman that's just terrible at.

42:37
Case
Their job mean, he's good in a fight. I guess, like, ultimately, Goku, he's great in a fight.

42:44
Jesse
Oh, yeah. You can kick ass in a fight. Yeah.

42:46
Case
In terms of everything, actually. The logistics of, like, fixing the world. He's, like, not particularly good at that. And he's got a short fuse. And he is just, like, a weird fucker in general.

42:57
Jesse
Yeah. He's a team breaker, not a team maker.

43:00
Case
Yeah.

43:01
Jesse
Yeah. It's like, I don't need any of you to fight my fight for me. And then, of course, he gets his ass.

43:05
Case
He's a lancer all of a sudden, being thrust into the role of the hero. That doesn't work for him, and it pushes him too far and he goes nuts. And I would argue that he is the one that is making the case for the absolute power corrupts absolutely being personified. We already established it with plutonium. And then it's like, yep. And now the next time someone has that level of power, they're also going to be corrupted immediately. And that's why I think that this is an interesting conversation about that question. Regardless of where it comes down on. We see him continue to fuck up throughout the course of the series, up until it's revealed that, oh, wait, there's actually three brothers instead of two triplets.

43:38
Jesse
Yeah, I will say that did feel a little smashed in because it ultimately goes nowhere.

43:45
Case
Right. Especially because, like, I mean, you feel like it's gonna matter in a big way. It doesn't until Gilgamesh kills survivor.

43:52
Jesse
And then it's like, the power transfers only to one.

43:55
Case
And he just totally misunderstood how the powers worked. Yeah.

43:59
Jesse
It's a symbol on their chest. There's only one at the top, two at the bottom. Like, I get it.

44:03
Case
Right. It does make it kind of surprising that Carrie, in the first place did share his powers, though, because he's the one who honestly wanted it. And at first was, like, fine with sharing. And that's sort of like the argument that he did become corrupt over time, that he wasn't always, like, this level of, like, narcissist.

44:18
Jmike
Well, it kind of started off as, like, a revenge thing or fringe kick, and then it kind of, like, grew from there until he was like, I am the Mandarin.

44:27
Jesse
I could see a prequel series detailing how Carrie was secretly planning to kill Cilla the whole time.

44:33
Case
I mean, considering the relationship with Caden, who we should probably move on to next, because I think she's very cool.

44:40
Jesse
Probably my favorite character in the series.

44:42
Case
But we could talk about Scylla for a minute there. It's cool that Scylla comes back as a ghost at the end of the series.

44:47
Jesse
Ghost and a zombie.

44:48
Case
Yes.

44:49
Jesse
Yes.

44:51
Case
That was a sequence that did not feel as squeezed in there as it could have. This is why I don't mind the third brother plot that much, because it does explain their symbol. And generally speaking, I like the writing, and I like the relationship between Scylla and Caden that we finally see after it had been hinted at for so long up until that point.

45:08
Jesse
Yeah, it allows you to just get to that point where everybody meets up at that one point at the monastery.

45:15
Case
Right. Like, it starts to feel like things might be on the ups. Like, all of a sudden, a character who had been, like, written off this whole time is back with them. Like, they're starting to get people together. Like, Gilgames joins up with them, and it seems like this group is starting to assemble and, like, yeah, we're mounting our counter offensive against the plutonian and against survivor. All right. Yeah, let's go. And then things get horribly fucked up.

45:35
Jesse
Thanks, Gill.

45:36
Case
But in the time up until then, Scylla is able to be restored to a functional space by Caden, and Caden is so cool. So I mentioned that Cilla and Carrie are effectively the Green Lanterns. Caden could also be argued to be the green lantern of the team. I mean, she's clearly the caster of the team. Like, if there's a magician character, she's the one who fills that niche.

45:58
Jesse
Zatanna, I guess, maybe, right?

46:00
Case
Yeah, exactly. She tells stories to cause them to summon those things. Like, it's very much storybook Smith from the Alan Moore supreme.

46:09
Jesse
Damn it. Oh, God damn it. You're right.

46:12
Case
It is where it's like, we're gonna fight you with the power of folklore. In this case, it's japanese folklore. So it's all samurai and Ronin, and it's fucking dope comic book with this character. If there was a real book about this character, like, it would be full color, but then the ghost she would summon are just black and white manga characters. So it would just be like, do do. Oh, like, you're gonna attack me, lone wolf cub? And then, boom. And then they're dead.

46:37
Jesse
That's why she's so interesting as a character, because her power is just so outrageous compared to the rest of them. Everyone's like, oh, you know, this guy's got control of lightning. This guy can fly, super strength. You know, bet noir can shoot guns really well with some weird powers. Like, oh, she literally tells stories to create other creatures that fight for her. She doesn't do anything other than just tell the story in the middle of the fight. She doesn't actually get in there with her own hands.

47:02
Case
Right. She's the caster type character in that regard.

47:04
Jesse
Yeah, she just stays in the back.

47:05
Case
But her summons, apparently can go quite big, because when her friends die, like, when Volt is dead, her talking about vault is able to summon Volt, but.

47:13
Jesse
Is it actually his soul?

47:15
Case
It might be, like, an echo kind of situation, where normally it's not, like, a fully sentient version, but it's like them acting as if they were on that field. As she tells the story.

47:25
Jesse
Yeah. I couldn't tell if it was actually their spirits or if it was actually her interpretation of that person manifested into reality. It kind of reminds me of eternal sunshine, of the spotless mind where Joel is stuck in his own head and he can't get out, and so he's imagining Cade Winslet the whole time, but it's not really her. It's his interpretation of her talking to him. So it's him talking to himself the whole time.

47:49
Case
That makes sense. I was gonna say it's kind of like, what would Brian Boytano do? Because you could imagine, like, her just being like, what would Brian Boytano do if he were here right now? He'd probably kick an ass or two. That's what Brian Boytano would do. All of a sudden, this ice skater would just appear out of nowhere and kick an ass or two and then disappear. That's the summons, that, like, kind of thing that we're talking about here. Except in the case of Scylla, where, because he was, like, half dead, and then, like, she was able to maintain, like, a much deeper connection, like, their story was being told together by her at that moment, he was able to be, like, fully sapient on this plane, but otherwise, normally would be more of an avatar.

48:28
Jesse
Yeah, because he's technically, I think, brain dead at that point. So he's technically not a living person.

48:33
Case
Like, physically, they do kill the body, but, yes. I mean, but it's in the process of doing so, like, frees him to, like, linger as a revenant on this plane.

48:43
Jesse
Yeah, it's an interesting character in terms of just changing the power set compared to everybody else. Cause up to that point, a lot of their powers are punch, punch, you know, laser beams. This is the one outlier where it feels completely different from everybody else.

48:58
Case
Well, they do a good job of just having the characters who matter level up. Like, consider where qubit is at the start of the series versus at the end of the series.

49:05
Jesse
Oh. Where he creates 10,000 copies of himself.

49:07
Jmike
Right.

49:09
Jesse
It's literally the Council of Ricks. Yes, it's the Council of Ricks.

49:14
Case
Well, and remember, the Council of Ricks is a parody of the Council of Reeds. And you called qubit read.

49:19
Jesse
Oh, that's right. Yeah. By the way, did he leave behind all those other qubits on that prison planet?

49:25
Case
Eventually, they caught up to him.

49:26
Jesse
Oh, that's right. Cause they're all following in his path of. Oh, okay. So it's all. It's still the same guy. They're all just following the same path. Okay.

49:32
Jmike
I mean, throughout the story, he's been, like, doing little technopath things here or there. Like, he created the gun when they were fighting a demon the first time. I was like, oh, those are kind of cool powers. You can. You know, he's got the little technopath power. It's kind of cool. And then, boom, he just comes out of his ass with, like, something future tech, and it's like, I got you again.

49:49
Jesse
Yeah. What?

49:50
Jmike
Like, how does he keep doing.

49:51
Jesse
There's a character that's capable of doing that in the Marvel universe.

49:53
Case
Who the hell is whiz kid?

49:55
Jesse
Like, touched. Yeah, whiz camp. It's like a tea can, like, touch any kind of technology and kind of, like, reshape it in something. Who is it?

50:02
Case
I mean, forge also can kind of do that.

50:05
Jesse
Forge. That's it. It's forge. That's right. Forge. He can kind of, like, make anything out of anything.

50:09
Case
Yeah.

50:09
Jesse
So, yeah, he's the MacGyver of the Marvel universe.

50:13
Case
Right. Which are.

50:14
Jesse
I can create a gun out of gum and toothpicks.

50:17
Case
Yeah. Always a fun character type.

50:20
Jesse
Yeah, fantastic. On X Men 97. Really, really good use of that character.

50:24
Case
So, yeah, like, cubit. Like, it's, like, so leveled up, but at the same time, he's always the moral beacon in this group to the very end, not even wanting to give up fully on plutonium, which means that so many people are dead because of him.

50:37
Jesse
Yeah, that's kind of the issue I have. I would make the argument this series could have been cut in half. As much as I love all those scenes, like, later on, like, you know, the bette noir stuff and the cadence stuff with Scylla and, like, as much as I love all that, you could have cut a lot of that down and made it about half the length and just had qubit kind of just say, fuck it. Just kill him. If the story ended with him being killed when the alien showed up, I would have been like, okay, perfect. Great. That's great. That's a great place to end it. Aliens showed up, and qubit cut some deal to kill the aliens or send them away, and we just end right there.

51:16
Jesse
But I think what Wade wanted to do is he wanted to get to that point where Tony's essence goes off into the multiverse and creates a. The inspiration for Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster. Super.

51:29
Case
Yeah, well, but you could imagine that being, like, their response to the alien showing up in the first place. Because the aliens come because of Hornet, not because of qubit.

51:36
Jesse
Yeah. He institutes the. Was it the Vespa protocol or something like that.

51:41
Jmike
Yeah.

51:42
Case
Why don't we move on to talking about Hornet? Because I feel like qubit, we've just sort of established, like, he seems like the straw nice guy in the group to a certain degree.

51:49
Jesse
A little on the manipulative side, but no more than something like Professor X.

51:53
Case
I love when he's, like, actually starts threatening, like, taking out the teleportation. And I feel like the argument here could be that when the aliens show up, qubit goes and forces a scenario where the Plutonian gets divided throughout the multiverse as ideas to get it right this time, and in doing so, destroys the teleportation technology that the aliens have stolen from him or something to that effect.

52:13
Jesse
Yeah.

52:14
Case
But it's interesting that the aliens get this teleportation technology because it's given to them by the Hornet.

52:19
Jesse
Yeah.

52:20
Jmike
The first time we see him is getting vaporized, like, five pages of the comic.

52:25
Jesse
Yeah, well, his whole family gets vaporized.

52:27
Jmike
Yeah, except for the daughter, I think.

52:30
Case
I thought everyone. Oh, no, you're right. The daughter, she spared the little girl.

52:33
Jmike
He's like, guess who I am? I'm a superhero. He flies off, and I was like, what?

52:37
Case
Yeah. Setting up how bad the Plutonian is.

52:39
Jesse
That's a hanging chad. They never did resolve what happened to the daughter.

52:42
Case
Yeah, that's true. But the hornet, they talk about being this great hero so much in the background. Like, they talk about how he saved the world and how they never really explained it until we get finally the scene. And it turns out, oh, he didn't save the world. He bartered.

52:57
Jesse
He cut a deal.

52:58
Case
He cut a deal and got them off our back, but at the same time, fucked over everyone, ever.

53:04
Jesse
All throughout the multiverse, he turns from Batman into the red hood.

53:08
Case
Yep.

53:09
Jesse
Yeah, fuck him. I'll just find any way to solve this problem.

53:14
Case
And it comes out of his suspicion of the plutonian, specifically. It's wild that's the deal that he strikes.

53:20
Jmike
It was kind of cool behind his rationale because I was like, oh, there's, like, a totally Batman angle to this because he's, like, super suspicious of his. Because they're best friends.

53:29
Jesse
Yeah. But there's that one moment where Tony slips and says, so when does Donna get back? Right?

53:34
Jmike
He was like, wait a second.

53:34
Jesse
I told him my wife's name. There's that moment in Superman returns where Clark is just kind of floating outside of Lois's window while she's having a discussion with her husband. It's so creepy. So creepy. And I kept thinking to myself, oh, my God, that moment is a response to that scene in Superman returns. It's totally the response to that. It's like, it's so weird and creepy and manipulative, and it's just this seed of grossness. Just, ugh. By the way, Superman returns has, like, the most abhorrent cast and crew you could ever possibly put together on a movie.

54:15
Jmike
Superman was great.

54:16
Jesse
He was the one good thing.

54:19
Case
Yeah. Yeah.

54:21
Jesse
Chase can't even come.

54:23
Case
It's a movie that hasn't aged well, but at the same time, no better.

54:27
Jesse
Than the stuff we got afterwards. I'll say that.

54:30
Case
Right? It's like the Dan O'Brien bit where it's just like, the best Superman movie of the 21st century. Like, question mark.

54:38
Jesse
Yeah. Saying it as your voice kind of goes up. A question mark.

54:41
Jmike
Best.

54:41
Jesse
Yeah, the best.

54:43
Case
Yeah.

54:44
Jesse
But, yeah. It's like that moment where he slips up and just reveals. Like, Hornet has every right to be suspicious. Like, oh, my God, he's watching me. He's probably watching all of us. It's so crazy.

54:56
Jmike
It was the whole card scene where he's like, he wouldn't be cheating on us, would he?

55:00
Jesse
Of course he would.

55:02
Jmike
He's, like, supposedly this great kid, this great guy who's, like, the pillar for, like, everything. Is he really cheating on us?

55:08
Jesse
I even have in my notes, Tony has never, ever gotten a good night's sleep in his life. Life.

55:14
Case
That is 100% true. Like, there's no way he can hear.

55:17
Jesse
Everything all the time. That's why he sleeps in the middle of a volcano. It drowns out the world. Like, he just can't sleep. Of course, the guy snapped.

55:26
Jmike
They do a good job of, like, letting you know during certain scenes that he's still hearing everything that's going on around the world. Oh, yeah, the part where he's talking to the doctor after he gives him technology. I couldn't figure out, like, why I kept saying, like, help us. Like, the house is on fire, blah, blah, in the background, like, where there's the people seeing him, like, come to the office and harass the doctor. I was like, oh, he's still hearing everything around the world while this is going on now.

55:52
Case
I was like, oh, and that's the thing that pushes him to, like, step off to go to the moon so that, like, he can't hear anything.

56:01
Jesse
Yeah, just give me five minutes.

56:02
Case
And that's why he misses the emergency beacon, so he doesn't get to the, like, the sonic play. I want to talk about the Sonic plague, but Hornet. That's quite a sequence, hornet. I think it's interesting, like, setting up this Batman character who's all set to go out and be a hero, and then the Plutonian shows up right before he was supposed to make his reveal.

56:22
Jesse
Surprise.

56:23
Case
And then always was in the shadow of these superhumans. And then he, quote, unquote, saves the world. But it's by cutting the steel. I find it really interesting that they set up Batman that way. He is the Batman archetype on the team. He is the human on the team, the only one that's allowed to hang, despite the fact that he doesn't actually have any of these powers and the fact that he is way more practical, you know, for all the pluses and negatives of that.

56:47
Jesse
He's not even particularly rich. He's not, like a rich dude or anything like that. He has a family, like, two kids, probably has a mortgage on his house. He's not rich like Bruce Wayne. Like, he's just a guy.

56:58
Jmike
Shelter.

56:58
Jesse
He's just a guy.

56:59
Case
Well, I mean, we don't know the full extent, but, yeah, it's true.

57:02
Jesse
The car he has is probably, like a souped up mercedes. Yeah, it's nothing really special.

57:07
Case
Yeah. He certainly seems to be more modest than Batman.

57:11
Jesse
Yeah, that's all he could afford. If he could afford a Lamborghini, he probably would've gotten a Lamborghini. The fact that he's so practical and so simple, and yet the whole story just hinges on him. Cause if he hadn't set that one thing, that one Vespa protocol. The aliens would have never shown up, and Tony would have probably destroyed the world.

57:30
Case
He just barely got off the Vespa protocol right before dying.

57:34
Jesse
I think it goes into that. That meme of, like, Batman can do anything if he has enough prep time. He can do anything as long as he has prep time, which I've grown to be very kind of tired of at this point. There's that image of Superman, the Flash, and Batman lined up to do a sprint. And the response of the two of them looking at him, he just, I'm Batman. It's like, really. It's like, okay, it's getting a little tiresome at this point. Like, I get you guys like Batman, but come on, guys.

58:02
Case
That would be the energy that led us to start this podcast, frankly.

58:07
Jmike
It really is, guys, is telling no lies here. It got really old for a while.

58:13
Jesse
I'm a little sick of it. I'm a little.

58:15
Jmike
Batman has prep time. Everyone has prep time. That's not how that works.

58:18
Jesse
That's not how that works.

58:19
Case
That's a harsh deal, Mandy. Like, he gives up every single alien world that they have ever visited, continues to give up new worlds that they ever visit. I mean, imagine DC of this era. Like, anyone familiar with legion of superheroes knows just how many worlds are out there that would be included in this. So we're talking about hundreds of sapient worlds.

58:40
Jesse
Does that include the multiverse as well?

58:42
Case
I mean, it seems to be teleportation, so probably in their reality, yeah, that's still a lot of sentient species that he is wiping out by giving this intel and then giving the tech to do it is even more ridiculous. Like, it turns them into an intergalactic superpower in addition to the fact that it allows them to create really inventive weapons. And, oh, my God, the Vespin shit was entirely my jam. Like, taking any kind of existing, like, here's a Macguffin. And being like, how do we make this into, like, a way more interesting, like, version of that? Like, where they have, like, whips that, like, cut into you by teleporting sections of your skin away? That was so fucking cool. That was so cool.

59:20
Jesse
Oh, God, there's that one sequence where I think, is it qubit? Like, uses the teleportation technology to separate Bette noir's body to multiple sections. Like, little things like that. Clearly he used that technology that the Vespas took and repurposed it. It's like, it's so fucked. I mean, imagine if this was actual DC characters. Imagine how insane the story would feel. And imagine if Batman had done that and just sold out the human race to some alien species. He'd be the most hated person on the planet. It's probably a good thing these aren't IP characters, right?

59:54
Case
I mean, you could make a comparison to watchmen in terms of this being, like, IP adjacent and being allowed to make a strong statement about comics as a whole and, like, thoughts about the.

01:00:05
Jesse
World and all that, because Rorschach is supposed to be the Batman of that universe, as far as I'm aware. That's what Alan Moore, I think, has said. Sure.

01:00:12
Case
But he's also the question, you know, it like, rolling these archetypes together in that regard. And I would say that is what is going on in this book. The thing is, I would say the book runs a little bit on the longer side and isn't quite as collaborative in terms of the strength of all the things that are being contributed. Like, Peter Krause is, like, a good artist, but I just don't feel like I'm getting quite as many interesting artistic details that Dave Gibbons would give.

01:00:37
Jesse
Yeah, that's the complaint I've had.

01:00:39
Case
That is a very high bar. And I am not trying to, like, brag on anyone right now, but I'm just saying that, like, in terms of the artistic work, like, in a tier list, like, watchmen is s tier. And I would say this is a tier, you know?

01:00:51
Jesse
Yeah, the art is good, but there are parts where I'm just kind of, like, you ran out of time. You can just kind of feel like there's a few parts where the artwork is. It's fine, but it doesn't quite get across, like, the fine details. If everyone is this paranoid, they would look like they haven't slept a. In multiple days. They'd have bags under their eyes. They looked exhausted. They have wrinkles, gray hair that should be expressed. Like, everyone is terrified of this guy, just finding them in the middle of the night. No one has slept well in weeks. And I think that could have been better expressed with a slightly better artist. It's good, but it could have been better.

01:01:28
Case
And I feel like this whole story.

01:01:30
Jesse
Maybe it was a money thing. Maybe this is the only people they could afford.

01:01:32
Case
Well, that, yeah, but also, they're, like I said, vamping a bunch of times. Like, I forget the exact issue count, but, like, it's way more than twelve. Yeah, it's what, like 36, 48, something like that.

01:01:43
Jesse
Main storyline is 37 issues.

01:01:46
Case
37 issues. Yeah.

01:01:46
Jesse
There's also the tie in storyline, the redemption storyline, which is four issues. Technically, it's 41 issues. Then you have the companion storyline of incorruptible, which I think was done by separate artists. But Peter Krause did jump in.

01:01:57
Case
So, I mean, like, we're talking about 40 issues total. Like, I feel like the story could have been twelve. It would have been a very tight twelve.

01:02:04
Jmike
Only twelve.

01:02:06
Case
But that would have been a really interesting kind of, like, approach to, like, trying to put this all together. I mean, there's all kinds of reasons, like, when you have a successful book, you want to continue running. And so it allowed us to decompress and really live in some of the worlds and get to know some of the characters better. Like, I doubt we would have spent that much time talking about the Hornet if this was a twelve issue series, because you just would have died. And that would have been it.

01:02:27
Jesse
It would have been, like, two pages of one issue, and that's it.

01:02:30
Case
Although the comedian has the same role and dies pretty quickly and is, like, the subject of many essays, so who can say?

01:02:37
Jesse
True, but that's done in, like, the nine panel structure, and it's. It's very compressed. There's so much information on each page. This is not watchmen.

01:02:46
Case
Right. Moving on, moving on.

01:02:50
Jesse
Yeah.

01:02:51
Case
Do we have much to say about Gilgames? I mean, they kind of talk about how he's, like, fairly simple, and I kind of stand by that.

01:02:57
Jmike
I mean, it's Hawkman.

01:02:58
Jesse
There's not much to talk about. It's a hawkman. But then he loses his wings. I thought at the end of the series, they would give him, like, they would turn him into Archangel, give him metal wings. Like they would. Like, cubit would build him new wings. I was waiting for that, and it never happened.

01:03:12
Case
I was like, that's disappointing, I will say. When he's in prison and he has only one wing, and he cuts it off to, like, use the bones to break out of prison.

01:03:20
Jesse
That was cool. That was a really cool sequence. That is cool. Remember, I came up with a short story for that happens years ago where. Oh, it was a bloodshot short story that I had an idea for. Yeah, that's right. He runs out of weapons. He's trying to fight this one guy. So he breaks his own arm and pulls out the bone and uses it as a shiva. Yeah. I was like, oh, it's so cool. I remember writing that years ago. It's. I got it saved on my hard drive somewhere. But, yeah, using your bones as a lockpick. It's brilliant. So clever.

01:03:47
Case
I was really surprised he didn't get wings back in some way by the end of the whole series.

01:03:51
Jesse
Yeah, that's one complaint, I would say. Just give him archangel wings. That would have been so much better. Because Cupid's off planet at that point. He just kind of fucks off, and he's stuck on that insane asylum. For how long is he there? For? Like, weeks or something like that. It's never really said. That's another negative I give the series is that time in terms of how long happens between each story and each issue. I would have really appreciated timestamps, like, just to say, like, this day, this time, because then.

01:04:19
Case
Oh, yeah, that would have been nice also with all the flashbacks, because they do a pretty good job of being, like, it was like, what, five years ago was, like, plutonians, like, first appearance, something like that. And just, like, the issues that care about it. Like, those work pretty well. And so it would have been nice if there was, like, a consistent, like, here's the entire timeline line of this world.

01:04:37
Jesse
Yeah. Because apparently, over the course of this series, it only happens, like, a couple of weeks, right? It's like, maybe four or five weeks. I'm like, that's, like, barely a month. It's not particularly long between the point of when he snaps and when he gets killed. It's not that long. Which also illustrates that the level of power this guy has destroys the world so quickly.

01:05:01
Jmike
The damage that he left behind.

01:05:02
Jesse
Yeah, and the damage he left behind and the damage that the us government leaves behind when they bring out the plutonian parents, they willingly sacrifice a third of the planet to radiation to get his parents out of the ground on.

01:05:16
Case
The lark that, oh, well, they haven't broken out yet. That must mean they probably are trying to not kill us. So what if we just kill ourselves?

01:05:25
Jesse
Yeah.

01:05:26
Case
Oh, okay. Then they'll probably go and, like, help out.

01:05:28
Jesse
It's like opening up the Chernobyl reactor again in order to stop the war. Ukraine, right now, it's like, it. Yeah, it'll work, but the damage it would do is so bad. Don't do that. But, I mean, ultimately it works. But I will say his parents just kind of disappear. They never really reappear after they chuck him into the future. Qubit could have just left him there. Qubit could have just left him there and just found another way to just stop the radio. Couldn't they have gotten some other way? Like, did they have to bring plutonium back?

01:06:03
Case
Right? I mean, like, the parents honestly should have stepped in to do some kind of, like, fixing the whole situation.

01:06:09
Jesse
Yeah. Why couldn't. Why couldn't they do it?

01:06:11
Case
Hard to really say again, like, this is a terrible kind of situation.

01:06:16
Jesse
Yeah. I mean, we're getting into these questions of, like, why didn't they do this? Why did that? Like, when you're in the moment reading the book, it's like, it's really good. It's really great. It's just there are all these little, like, little questions at the end. It's like, yeah.

01:06:28
Case
And these are small questions in the grand scheme of things.

01:06:32
Jesse
They, they don't.

01:06:33
Case
I still put this in, like, a tier for this type of story. Just like, it's not the s tier, and that's the only, like, thing about it. Like, these are niggling issues that, like, don't really matter. Like you said in the moment, like, issue to issue, totally fine. I read this issue to issue, by.

01:06:47
Jesse
The way, as did I. But unfortunately, because I said there was a flood earlier on, like, six, seven months ago, a lot of those issues got destroyed. I still have them, but they're so water damaged, they're basically unreadable. So I just got the omnibus.

01:06:58
Case
Yeah.

01:06:58
Jesse
But, yeah, I did read it issued issue, but like I said, there is that dip in the story where he's in the prison. I did fall off it where I was, like, buying the issues, but I wasn't reading them. They just kind of piled up. So. But eventually, I was just kind of like, I'll just push my way through it. And I'm thankful I did, because that valley you go into spikes back up when he gets back to earth, and he just carves his symbol into the. Into the earth. It's once he gets back to earth, that series is back on track again. I feel like that's the point where Mark Wade was working on both irredeemable and incorruptible at the same time, and he was stretching himself a little thin because they're two Completely different stories.

01:07:37
Jesse
And also, he's doing, like, marvel stuff at the same time. So he was probably writing so much at one time. He was. I just need to invent a storyline to keep him occupied.

01:07:46
Case
Right.

01:07:47
Jesse
It really does feel like let's keep him occupied for a time being.

01:07:50
Case
It's very much like, oh, bud has to take off the radio show, so let's inventory kryptonite.

01:07:56
Jesse
Yeah. Yeah. We need to invent a new thing to keep him occupied so we can keep going. There was a run of them. I remember when Jason Aaron was writing Wolverine? It wasn't like a max line of wolverine, but it was the first time he tackled Wolverine. There was a storyline where he's in, like, An INsane Asylum. There's a guy named doctor rot that keeps harvesting his brain because it heals over and over again. It's a really bad story Arc. And you can tell it's because ERen was working on, like, five other books at the same time. I need to write something this MonTh. Otherwise I don't get Paid. So the first arc of that Wolverine storyline, great. The third storyline, great. This middle one, crap. You can just feel it that it's just not good.

01:08:41
Jesse
Well, I wouldn't say the storyline in the insane asylum is crap. I would say it just feels like. You ever seen a jeep with its wheels stuck in muddy? It's that.

01:08:50
Case
Yeah, it's vampy.

01:08:50
Jesse
It's stuck in mud until it finally gets traction.

01:08:54
Jmike
And where they're like, they're at the magician show. He keeps walking up to people, and they're like, son of a bitch. Chime in, you son of a bitch. Chime in.

01:09:05
Jesse
Oh, God.

01:09:06
Jmike
That's what that entire section felt like. Cause he was like, oh, hey, I'm gonna do this thing. And they're like, I'm with you. I'm like, wait, that's it. Just gonna agree. The only person who really, like, thought about it for a second was, like, the little alien dude, the white guy with the wings with a sonic blast, and he was like, oh, I can't understand you for a second.

01:09:25
Case
Oh, that guy. Yeah.

01:09:26
Jmike
Everyone else especially, like, the chat. The cat chick. She's like, oh, wait, you can't feel? I can't feel. How about you join me? And she's like, awesome. What is happening here, you son of a bitch? I'm in.

01:09:41
Case
J Mike. So this is your first time reading irredeemable?

01:09:44
Jmike
Yeah.

01:09:45
Case
What is your big takeaway? Like, what is the big thing that you wanted to talk about? Having read it now?

01:09:50
Jmike
The first couple pages, I was like, holy crap, case, what do you have me reading again? But then this took a lot of twists and turns, and I was like, oh, my gosh. I can't stop reading this. This is, like, one colossal fuck up after the other. And I kept looking at how many pages I had left. I didn't finish the entire thing. I got to, like, volume eight, and I was like, okay, this is gonna take even longer, but I still want to finish reading this. This is really freaking good. Like, I got to where the parents chose up. But like he said, I had some issues with it.

01:10:19
Jesse
Pacing issues.

01:10:21
Jmike
Yeah. They jumped back and forth. I was like, okay, cool. I kind of got the reason why he snapped. But then again, I didn't get the reason why he snapped because, like, the hornet, you can kind of see it coming from the jump and, like, it didn't sneak up on anybody because he was always like, oh, you guys don't appreciate me. Or he'd say something like that for a second and then he'd, like, revert back to normal. So, like, the chinks in the armor were kind of already showing from like, the very first flashback he had. And then throughout the series, he's like, no one appreciates me. I hate it here. You people don't care about what I do for you. I save you guys lives the entire time and no one says thank you. They're like, we did say thank you.

01:10:58
Jmike
You didn't say it enough. Screw you guys. Yeah, I'm going to kill more of you.

01:11:03
Jesse
There's an issue of, you guys are read Astro city. Remember that?

01:11:06
Case
Oh, yeah.

01:11:07
Jmike
Yeah.

01:11:08
Jesse
I think you know the issue I'm going to mention. There's a character that is on call 24 hours a day and he operates for 23 hours and 59 minutes. He gets 1 minute off for himself and he's just constantly going around the city, like solving crime, solving problems, and then he gets 1 minute to himself. You know what he does with this time? He just flies.

01:11:32
Case
Just, well, in his dreams.

01:11:34
Jesse
In his dreams, but just on his own. It's just like, he just flies. Just doesn't think about anything. Just kind of just enjoys his power and then he gets back on the clock.

01:11:42
Case
Yeah, that's the first issue of Astro city.

01:11:44
Jesse
Yeah, very first issue. It's a great way to interpret how Superman would actually just take a break. The problem is that this character, plutonian, he never got a break. Like the one time he takes a break, he fucks up. It's like, it's like, why can't you people just be happy?

01:12:01
Jmike
Because there was also that one thing where, like, where he, I think the first flashback that we see where he saved everybody at the stadium.

01:12:08
Jesse
Yep. And there's the guy in here was.

01:12:10
Jmike
Like cheering and he's like listening to what everyone's saying. And I was like, oh. Rule number one, you don't listen to what everyone's saying. I think it was after who he saved and he was like, that's the thing that plutonium promised to always be helping people and always be listening. And I was like, oh, so he's, like, always listening.

01:12:31
Jesse
Yeah.

01:12:32
Jmike
Oh, so that's kind of why that turn happened.

01:12:37
Jesse
Yeah. How does he have conversations with people if he's constantly hearing all this noise?

01:12:42
Jmike
No idea.

01:12:45
Case
I mean, if it's like, Superman, there's a degree of a super intelligence that allows him to. Basically, he has infinite ram over his brain.

01:12:55
Jesse
Okay.

01:12:57
Case
Yeah. Like, he might not have the processor that Modius has, but he has plenty of ramdhennae. So you never hear the hard drive spinning.

01:13:03
Jesse
I would love to see a version of the DC universe where, like, everything is just horribly wrong. Like, every single character is just completely the inverse. You remember Warren Ellis book ruins?

01:13:13
Case
Yeah.

01:13:13
Jesse
What if you did that with the DC characters? Like, Superman is hearing things so much that his ears start bleeding and he's in an insane asylum. Like, make them stop. I can't. Batman's actually just some crazy guy that lives in a mansion. He's a hermit, but he thinks he's a superhero, but he's nothing.

01:13:28
Case
I feel like we've seen, like, nightmare stories with, like, the JLA elsewhere stuff. Well, no, like, JLA stories where they're, like, trapped in their nightmares like that. But, yeah, it'd be fun to, like, have, like, an elseworld or a multiverse thing where I saw a version where everything is, like, so, like, pushed so far.

01:13:43
Jmike
Yeah, I feel like that did happen. I think it was, like, one of the JLU episodes where it was like, mister sleep or something had trapped everybody and Batman was only one to figure it out.

01:13:53
Case
Well, there's, like, the key, like, in the JLA story, and I not sure if that was in JLU also, but.

01:13:59
Jesse
Maybe Starro has something to do with that. I guess.

01:14:01
Case
I mean, all these could be a way to get to that scenario. I know there's one where, like, Superman is, like, every whisper. Like, I can't do anything. I'm just destroying everything just by existing kind of one. I feel like we've exhausted our sort of ramble about the various characters. You know? I don't have much to say about the demon character who keeps on, like, popping up beyond just that he is dangerous and, like. Like, yeah, no, fuck him. Why would. Why would anyone trust him?

01:14:25
Jesse
Yeah, but is the military that desperate?

01:14:28
Jmike
Apparently so.

01:14:29
Case
I mean, that's supposed to be the situation, but, like, it was a mistake to be that desperate. Like, I mean, certainly there were better options. Like plutonium's actual parents.

01:14:38
Jesse
Why not call the paradigm? Like, you guys are paranoid, the paradigm being evil. It's like, you're literally working with a supervillain. He's a bad guy. He's gonna. Yeah, dude, he's gonna fuck you over. Yeah. Like, why? That's the one other thing I'm having a question about is, like, why do they stop trusting the paradigm? If they're clearly fighting against Tony, why don't they trust them?

01:15:00
Jmike
Yeah, because the soldiers at the jail say that same thing too. They were like, why? Okay, why are we locking him up here? The other guy was like, I don't know. We're just following orders. He's like, but they're like. They're literally the people who can stop him. So why would we lock them up?

01:15:13
Jesse
Maybe it's a reflection of politics at the time, the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe that's what it was. It feels somewhat reflective because obviously John Bolton shows up. It feels somewhat reflective of the time. Like, the military takes charge of the government. There's nobody at the helm of politics at that point. The military is what has to take charge. There's no other choice. Overall in terms of, like, tiers of Superman stories, this is, it's not perfect. It's got a lot of problems, but it's quite good. It's really. I just wish it was a little short. If it was at most 30, I would have said perfect 37. Plus the spin off a little much.

01:15:55
Jmike
You don't want every volume to have, like, 500 pages.

01:15:59
Jesse
Every volume was like. It was standard. 22 issue comics for boom. It was standard, you know.

01:16:04
Case
Yeah.

01:16:05
Jesse
It's just when you're reading it in omnibus form, it's, you know, you drop it on your foot and it breaks your toe, so.

01:16:10
Case
Right.

01:16:11
Jesse
I'd also recommend the companion series, incorruptible. It's not as good. It definitely feels like b tier. There's a lot of pushes in psychology that really don't make sense. It's not as engaging story wise, and it is just the, oh, just need to stop the bad guys and punch, punch. It just does feel like traditional superhero stuff. It's also a funnier series. It's a lot more kind of jovial and kind of over the top. Like the jailbait character where Max damage is hooking up with a 16 year old, which is really creepy.

01:16:42
Case
And again, the character's name is jail bait. Not just describing her as jail bait.

01:16:46
Jesse
I mean, it's why she was named Jail Bait.

01:16:49
Case
I know, but just, like, in case anyone was like, oh, yeah, ask any.

01:16:51
Jesse
Questions, her name is literally jail bait. Yeah. But the psychology of another person that takes on the role of jail Bates. Cause her family was murdered, so she has a psychotic break and then takes on the role of jail bait. That's not really how psychology works. It's for the sake of the fun of the series. I could let it go, but there's a lot of free passes you got to give to that one.

01:17:14
Case
Yeah.

01:17:15
Jesse
As far as a new interpretation of the DC characters or just general superhero archetypes, it's one of the better ones. I probably put this maybe up there with. Remember that series class war that never got finished? Remember that?

01:17:28
Case
Yeah, yeah. Well, like, a very, like, rushed finish when it, like, finally got done.

01:17:34
Jesse
Yeah.

01:17:34
Case
Well, that actually is on, like, the docket for us to talk about. At some point.

01:17:38
Jesse
I'll jump back in for that one. I actually quite like class war. Yeah.

01:17:42
Case
Somewhere behind me I can point to it.

01:17:44
Jesse
Yeah. Did it ever actually get its last six issues done or did it just, like, fizzle?

01:17:48
Case
It wrapped up, but I think it, like, ended up being just six issues.

01:17:51
Jesse
Okay. Because it was supposed to be twelve and I never got finished.

01:17:55
Case
Like, it was like, the first three came out and then it, like, held off and, like, eventually the last three, like, came out of.

01:18:00
Jesse
Yeah. There was supposed to be a promise of another series and it never happened, so.

01:18:04
Case
Yep. So this is a really good take on, like, the evil Superman type. I'm really happy looking back over it. It's doing what we have complained about, but it's doing it very well.

01:18:16
Jesse
Yeah.

01:18:16
Case
That, I think is a real mark of quality because it is kind of trite to do. Like, what if Superman were evil in this day and age? And in this scenario, it's done very well and it's done in a way where I. Where it's so silver age. But also, he's so goddamn scary when you really get into it. Even in the moments where he's the hero, he's still kind of scary because.

01:18:38
Jesse
The implication he's so fast that he just beats a living crap out of everybody within a nanosecond.

01:18:45
Case
Right. He's so quick, he's so fast, and he's so omnipotent. Like, his hearing is so vast, his senses are so vast. It's a really well done series. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. Probably recommend you get a digital. I'm just gonna be honest about that one. The printing quality is not amazing.

01:19:01
Jesse
Yeah. Boom. Publishing. Please put out hardcovers. I would. Hardcovers, they're bound much better than they are soft covers. I would take a hardcover any day. Yeah, they're more expensive, but one, they look better on your shelf to, the binding is not gonna fall apart.

01:19:17
Case
But that isn't a mark of quality against the series itself. And like I said, check it out. I highly recommend it. Again, Mark Wade is an amazing Superman writer, and this is a chance to do an unfettered Superman story where the whole thing is inverted and, like, that's fantastic. Mark Wade being allowed to do, like, an Ultraman story, just free reign or, you know, whatever kind of evil man. Superman is your preferred type of evil Superman. Yeah, it's awesome. You should all check it out. J Mike, do you have any closing thoughts about the series?

01:19:47
Jmike
This was so good. I want to finish reading the rest of this series.

01:19:52
Jesse
I mean, how far along are you at this point?

01:19:54
Jmike
I got to, like, with the parents, they picked him up and they're questioning him.

01:19:57
Jesse
Oh, you're moving into the last. Yeah, finish it.

01:19:59
Case
Yeah, it's almost done at that point.

01:20:01
Jesse
You're almost done. It's almost done.

01:20:02
Jmike
Comicsology has like 500 pages for this, each volume. So I'm just like, oh, my gosh, this is so much information. But I can't stop really fast.

01:20:13
Case
There's, it gets art heavy at a certain point and it'll move quickly.

01:20:17
Jesse
Yeah.

01:20:17
Jmike
But it's still really good. I highly recommend the series.

01:20:20
Jesse
Yeah. If you want to know how they should have done the Snyderverse with the nightmarish stuff, this is the way to do it. It's like, this is how you do it. Like, you don't do it the way they did it with those movies.

01:20:32
Case
Yeah. Well, Jesse, thank you for bringing this to the table. Where can people find you, follow you? And what have you got going on?

01:20:39
Jesse
Well, I'm over at with Jaguar sharks. We have film rescue show, which is wrapping up very soon. By the time this comes out, film rescue will be wrapped up. But we're going into our series finale. We're calling it quits. I'm unloading the shotgun in the corner. I can't do it anymore. But, yeah, we're doing, with Superman returns, our final episode, it's still gonna be around intermittently because Seth had an idea for how to fix Madam Webb, the motherfucker, I swear to God. So film rescue is gonna move either to intermittent episodes or they're gonna do.

01:21:13
Case
Tv movies, if you will.

01:21:14
Jesse
Yes, tv movies. Yeah. Or patreon only. I mean, because Rebel Moon, we're gonna do that because it's obligatory story. Once all of the extended cuts are out. Be like, okay, let's analyze the train wreck that's going to be happening eventually. We also have split the difference where we compare originals and remakes. Case was just on an episode talking about Lone Wolf and Cub and road to perdition. We just did an episode on Roadhouse, which was a lot of fun going into the season finale on that. That's going to stick around week to week because film rescue kind of falls in to split the difference because we typically will get 50% of the time bad remakes. So we end up just kind of film rescuing the remake. So it's kind of like we just lumped it in to split the difference.

01:21:53
Jesse
We just kind of put it there and to whatever's way up where we just talk about fun things that come out. We just talked about X Men 97, which was a lot of fun. Unfortunately, they fired the original producer of the show. So who knows if season two is going to be any good. Whenever Disney has something that's a mark of quality, they know to shoot it in the foot. I'm also on Twitter, or X, if you want to call it that, as hardcore b shop. I am really at my ropes length with Twitter at this point. I'm really at the point where it's like, oh, I'm so sick of it. I'm so sick of it. But yeah, Instagram as well. It's just my name, Jesse Fresco. I'm more accessible there. I rarely check Twitter at this point.

01:22:32
Case
That is fair, and that is an understandable approach to the nightmare hell site that has become Twitter. On that note, you can find me on ace. You can find me at most of those platforms with an acept for Instagram where I'm holding onto my aim screen name for dear life. So you can find me there at quetzalcoatl five. You can find this show at Men of Steel Pod on X. Or you can find episodes of the show at the certain POv YouTube channel, which is a growing and prosperous YouTube series at this point. But you can find us on YouTube at certain pov media, and you can also find j Mike places. J Mike, where can people find you and follow you?

01:23:13
Jmike
Find me on Twitter and Instagram at jmica 101. I'm everywhere. Nowhere at the same time.

01:23:18
Jesse
Are you sure it's Twitter?

01:23:21
Jmike
I refuse to call it X.

01:23:24
Case
Good man. Good man.

01:23:26
Jmike
I refuse. Not gonna get me. Yeah, I'm on both at jmike 101. So feel free to reach out, have fun, and talk to me. I'll respond to whenever I can. Can.

01:23:37
Case
Nice. Well, everyone should be checking out Jaguar sharks, then come back for our next episode. In the meantime, check out other cool stuff@certainpov.com. Dot there's so many awesome podcasts there. I'm going to give a plug to fun and games with Matt and Jeff. Matt, our previous editor, and Jeff, our current editor, host a really positive conversation about video games. They also have a side series called side Quests, where people talk about a video game that they love for about five to 15 minutes. It's a really good time. I've done it shitload as many times as the let me I've done so far, so check that series out and then circle back for the next episode. Until then, stay super man.

01:24:23
Jmike
Men of steel is a certain POV production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and Kaceye Aiken. The show is scored and edited by Jeff Moonan, and our logo and episode art is by case Aiken.

01:24:45
Jesse
Video games are a unique medium. They can tell stories, immerse us in strange, fantastic worlds, blur the very boundaries of our reality.

01:24:54
Case
But at the end of the day.

01:24:55
Jesse
Video games are fun. Whatever fun is to you. I'm Jeff Moonan. And I am Matt, aka Stormageddon.

01:25:01
Jmike
And on fun and games, we talk.

01:25:03
Jesse
About the history, trends, and community of video games. It's a celebration of all the games we play and all the fun we find within them.

01:25:11
Jmike
And there's so many more games out.

01:25:13
Jesse
There, so we hope you'll share in.

01:25:15
Jmike
That conversation with us.

01:25:16
Jesse
Fun and Games podcast with Matt and Jeff find us on certainpov.com or wherever.

01:25:21
Case
You get your podcast, us and happy gaming CPOV certainpov.com.