Another Pass at The Grudge
Case and Sam are joined by Ben Haslar from the Reels of Justice podcast to take a look at a movie that really bears a Grudge!
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Overview
In the podcast episode "Another Pass at The Grudge," participants engage in a comprehensive discussion about the horror film "The Grudge," reflecting on their individual viewing experiences and the film's cultural context, particularly its American adaptation of a Japanese storyline. The conversation covers key aspects such as the movie's commercial success, its comparison to "The Ring," and the complexities of its non-linear storytelling. Participants analyze the film's ghost characters, including Kayako and Toshio, and debate the nature of the grudge, questioning whether it targets specific individuals. The episode includes a proposal for a remake tailored for American audiences, looking to improve narrative accessibility while respecting the original elements. The discussion concludes with a reflection on the value of film analysis and mentions of related podcasts, promoting further exploration of cinematic content.
Notes
🎬 The Grudge Movie Discussion (00:00 - 09:59)
Participants discuss their experiences watching The Grudge
Sam admits to disliking horror movies but watched for Sarah Michelle Gellar
The movie's commercial success and critical reception are mentioned
Comparison to The Ring and its influence on The Grudge
🌏 Setting and Cultural Context (09:59 - 19:40)
Discussion of the decision to set the movie in Japan with American actors
Comparison to Lost in Translation's portrayal of Americans in Japan
Debate on the accessibility of the film to American audiences
Analysis of the exoticism of Japan in the movie's portrayal
👻 The Nature of the Grudge (19:40 - 29:14)
Exploration of the grudge concept and how it affects victims
Discussion of the ghost characters: Kayako, Toshio, and the cat
Analysis of the irrationality and malevolence of the grudge
Debate on whether the grudge targets specific individuals or is indiscriminate
🕰️ Timeline and Structure (29:14 - 38:35)
Analysis of the non-linear storytelling in the film
Discussion of the confusion caused by time jumps
Exploration of the backstory involving Bill Pullman's character
Debate on the effectiveness of the film's structure
🎭 Character Analysis and Effects (38:35 - 48:21)
Discussion of Toshio's role as a harbinger and bait
Analysis of the practical and CGI effects in the movie
Exploration of the emotional impact of different ghost characters
Debate on the effectiveness of specific scare scenes
🎥 Remake Considerations (48:21 - 57:06)
Ben's pitch for remaking The Grudge for American audiences
Discussion of potential improvements to the storytelling structure
Analysis of how to make the Japanese elements more accessible
Debate on the balance between honoring the original and adapting for a new audience
🏆 Conclusion and Show Discussion (57:06 - 01:05:11)
Evaluation of Ben's pitch and decision to make it a regular episode
Discussion of the Reels of Justice podcast and Case's appearances
Promotion of other podcasts and content on the network
Reflection on the value of film analysis and discussion
Transcription
00:00
Case Aiken
I'm feeling generally kind of good about it. I haven't watched it since theaters, but at the same time, I don't remember why I haven't watched it since theaters.
00:07
Sam
I know why I haven't watched it since theaters. It was torture for me to watch it in theater. Like, I went and saw it. Cause I was a big Buffy fan.
00:14
Ben
As were we all, and I was.
00:15
Sam
Gonna go support my girl. I hated every moment of being horrified and terrified because I am a coward. I never die in a horror movie because I won't stay around long enough to die. I would have never bought that house. I'd be like, ooh, the vibe is off. I don't know. Let's go.
00:31
Ben
Such a nice house. Get out. Well, too bad I can't stay.
00:35
Case Aiken
Yeah. Basically, the first scene with Sarah Michelle Gellar, I'd be like, nuh. Going home.
00:40
Sam
But it was fine. It was. It was still a good movie that I hated.
00:48
Ben
Welcome to certain POV's another pass podcast.
00:51
Case Aiken
With case and Sam, where we take.
00:52
Ben
Another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. Let's see how we could have fixed that, Sam.
00:59
Case Aiken
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the another pass podcast. I'm case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Sam Alisea. Hi, Sam. Are you known to hold resentment in your heart?
01:13
Sam
No. No. I'm actually an incredibly not petty person. I don't really hold grudges at all.
01:19
Case Aiken
Oh, you don't hold grudges?
01:21
Sam
No.
01:22
Case Aiken
That's a good thing, right? Because I. Because today we're talking about the grudge, and I know that's not really your kind of move.
01:29
Sam
No, Phil's not.
01:31
Case Aiken
So it's clear that's not held in your heart. But you know whose heart it is held in. Ben Hassler.
01:36
Ben
Hi, everyone.
01:38
Case Aiken
Ben, you're coming to us from the reels of justice podcast, which I have been on a couple of times now. I have an undefeated win streak over there.
01:44
Ben
Are you.
01:45
Sam
Wow.
01:46
Ben
Fix that. Come on. A third time. We'll settle that.
01:50
Case Aiken
That sounds good. Cause last time, I actually went up against you directly, and it was a bittersweet fight because it was phantom menace versus rise of Skywalker, which is the worst. And it was like, well, which was.
02:00
Ben
The best of those two bad ones?
02:02
Case Aiken
The best of the two. Yeah.
02:04
Ben
No, that was a lot of fun. I love that discussion. You also did alien Resurrection, not resurrect alien three. Yeah. Which we, like, coined the term the Beowulf defense. You have lived on in that show.
02:16
Case Aiken
The high point of my podcasting career was the fact that you referenced it so that I became legal precedent in the court of the reels of justice podcast, wherein movies are determined if they're terrible movies and they have to be defended, or sometimes it'll be a case of two movies against each other. But it's a fantastic show. People should check that out.
02:34
Ben
Oh, thank you.
02:35
Case Aiken
But today we're not talking about a movie that is necessarily in danger of being considered a bad movie like we're talking about the grudge, which was a commercially successful movie from 2004. But as is often the case with horror movies that do very well commercially, critically, not so much. So there's certainly room for us to talk about this thing. I actually saw this in theaters. Sam, where did you first see this movie?
02:58
Sam
I actually did see this in theater. I hate horror movies a lot, but I was a big Buffy fan. I really, really love Sarah Michelle Geller, and I decided I was going to go and see this in theaters. I basically spent the whole time fighting the urge to leave. I didn't. I made it through the film. I do deserve a cookie for that still. I deserve all the cookies.
03:23
Ben
It's in the mail.
03:24
Sam
Thanks. But I did. I did see it. And I thought to myself, well, I did that and I'll never have to do that again. And I was wrong.
03:32
Ben
I'm sorry.
03:33
Case Aiken
Little did you know that an art form that didn't even exist at the time that this movie came out would one day be the co host of a podcast discussing movies and be forced to do it.
03:43
Sam
Right.
03:44
Case Aiken
Ben, how about you? When did you first experience this movie?
03:47
Ben
Well, I saw the ring first, which is kind of, you know, cashed in on the excess, the success of, and I love the ring, as did a lot of other people. I saw the grudge with my brother and his friend. They were not in the mood to see this movie. It was inaccessible to them. They snickered and laughed throughout the whole thing. But I've always been interested in Japan, so I was like, you know, I kind of liked it, but I just could not get those snickering voices out of my head, nor could I find many people that were interested in discussing it at all throughout the years. So, yeah, I'm happy to actually discuss it with some real film aficionados. And I've also tried to get this on reels of justice several times. No bites.
04:21
Ben
No one wants to talk about J horror over there.
04:24
Case Aiken
That's fair. I mean, I think that you brought up the ring. And I think the ring casts a huge shadow on this. A huge ring shaped shadow.
04:31
Sam
Yeah.
04:32
Case Aiken
This comes out two years after that adaptation of a japanese horror movie that is also a spooky ghost child horror movie.
04:38
Ben
To be fair, though, in Japan, the grudge ju on the grudge got theatrical release because it was cashing out on the success of Ringu over there. So, you know, it still could have echoed.
04:48
Case Aiken
Yeah. So there's all this echo kind of stuff going on with that all. And in the american zeitgeist, like, the ring was such a popular movie that in terms of, like, setting it and this felt like sort of a spiritual sequel to it. Even though the ring has gone on to have like its own, like actual sequels and Ringu has, all of these have become franchises because it's a vast.
05:06
Ben
Multiverse of J horror out there.
05:07
Case Aiken
Yeah, because it's a horror movie and they're cheap and the profit is huge. This movie cost $10 million and it brought in $187 million. We are talking about a huge hit short podcast.
05:19
Ben
Right. No rehabilitation necessary. See you guys next week where we'll be talking about.
05:23
Case Aiken
But that said, rewatching this movie, I was taken aback by. Obviously there's the ring comparisons to it. And I would say that the ring has more going on in terms of what it's trying to say about the horror that is in the piece. But one thing that I also took as a. As a little piece here is that the decision to have it still be set in Japan, but with american actors in the setting in very much a Godzilla kind of thing, with Mister Martin observing all the events kind of situation. Not so much is that this is also coming in the wake of lost in translation. And there is a little bit of a vibe of the characters feeling outside of their comfort zone because they are all ostensibly Americans living in Japan.
06:05
Case Aiken
And by they all, I mean, really it is just the wife character, Clea Duvall's character, who has vibes of that early on in the movie, and then they kind of forget about it after a while.
06:14
Ben
Sarah Michelle Gailey does too. She has a hard time.
06:16
Sam
Yeah, she does. I actually thought it was kind of cool that mainly because with Americans. Cause I noticed this time not really in my. Well, I don't really remember a lot of my first watch because I was in horror. It's all like a haze, really, honestly, white knuckling it through the film. But I would say that like, one of the things is like when she asks for directions, it's actually really nice that she asks in japanese, and very.
06:40
Ben
Good japanese, too, right?
06:42
Sam
Like. Like, it was just like, oh, this is a person who is, like, a transfer student. She's studying abroad, but she's doing this, like, volunteer work, and she's actually put in the work to kind of be part of this society. So even though she's kind of lost and nervous and even at the. The office, like, they. They tell her, like, don't worry. It's an english speaking home. There's, like, nerves about, like, going into this space where maybe she won't have as an extensive vocabulary. Right. That's kind of implied in there. And I thought that was a nice touch because she is so foreign to this, right?
07:15
Sam
Like, it's foreign eyes looking at something that, like, culturally, this is, like, you know, ghosts in Japan is just so culturally prevalent, and this idea of vengeful ghosts is so prevalent, and so she kind of becomes this perfect vehicle to introduce a western audience to this kind of theory.
07:36
Ben
I would argue that I think the fact that it takes place in Japan is what makes it less accessible, at least at the time. I think today we're a little bit more interested, but back in 2005, a little bit less so. And I think that's kind of why my first experience of it was kind of so negative. Whereas, like, the ring takes place in the United States, it still has, like, the japanese vengeful ghost sort of thing, but it's told in a framing way where it's accessible to you because Samara isn't japanese. She, like, has all the look of it, all the creepiness, all that paunch to it, but none of, like, the japanese lore, which, I mean, I'm interested in japanese culture, so it was okay for me, but I can't find anyone else.
08:11
Sam
I can see that. I went to an art high school, so I was already reading manga by the time.
08:15
Ben
Oh, there you go.
08:16
Sam
You were so I'm like, what do you mean? And then I'm like, no, no.
08:21
Ben
I should have watched it with you.
08:23
Sam
Just me being really fair. I get it, but I'm so afraid.
08:27
Case Aiken
I had some concerns on my rewatch, and I don't think that they're huge issues, but where there's a degree of the exoticism of Japan being played into the, like.
08:36
Sam
Oh, yeah.
08:37
Ben
Oh.
08:37
Case Aiken
But, you know, like, this foreign land having, like, ghosts and spirits and all that kind of element, I can see that could be perceived in there. I don't think it's really that bad. And I think, like, in Ben, what you're saying in terms of, like, accessibility of Japan now and japanese culture makes it feel less so in a modern rewatch of the movie, I think so. As opposed to at the time. This is coming very much in the wake of lost in translation.
08:59
Case Aiken
And there is an element of, like, oh, isn't it interesting to see, like, white people traveling around in the modern state of Japan, not some sort of, like, feudal setting that is often depicted or more often depicted, I think, culturally, but, like, here's all the idiosyncrasies of this different land that is similar technological position, but, like, very different cultural standpoint. Yeah, I think that was more so when it first came out and has been erased. And I don't think the intent was there for that. Otherwise they would play that up way more.
09:27
Case Aiken
I mean, I think that the argument that Sarah Michelle Geller's character of Karen being able to speak really good japanese and never really having to struggle to communicate with someone is an element of them saying, like, that part doesn't really matter, that it happens to be set in a foreign land for these characters because, like, if they played it up too much, it would become even more obvious that every single white person in this movie dies. Like, it's like, oh, they're american. They're going to suffer because of the spoilers. Yeah. I'm not saying that they're the only ones who die, but I'm saying that every white person dies.
10:03
Sam
They will definitely go into that.
10:04
Case Aiken
Yeah. Like, every white person gets grudged.
10:08
Ben
Yeah. Oh, except for Bill Pullman's wife.
10:12
Case Aiken
She's the only one who doesn't, but she had to watch her husband commit suicide.
10:14
Sam
Right. Well, they're where they don't belong, so. Joking. Oh, my gosh.
10:19
Case Aiken
Yeah. On that note, I did want to at some point have a conversation about Bill Pullman's Peter Kirk college professor character. Does he actually have an affair or is it entirely a stalker situation?
10:31
Sam
You know, that is interesting because I don't feel that the movie is completely clear on that. Because in the diary, you know, in the flashback when it's read out of the diary, it is said that she's in love with someone, but he doesn't even know I existed, which implies that it's a full stalker situation and that maybe he just showed up to the home because the address was on the letters that were being sent. That's possible, but, like, there are moments where you're like, wait, did he know?
11:02
Ben
Yeah, he tries to have it both ways.
11:04
Sam
Yeah, yeah.
11:05
Ben
Which I would say is another flaw in the movie where like, it just kind of hits you with an information bomb at the end. Like, you're kind of not sure what's going on. And all of a sudden, everything's going on. You don't know what to focus on.
11:15
Sam
Right.
11:17
Case Aiken
Yeah. Because this creates a question that I have about the larger nature of the grudge and the grudging of people. I get that this is her house and that it's a spirit that just sort of lingers there. And so anyone who moves into the house, that spirit is going to be like, what the fuck are you doing here? This is my fucking house.
11:32
Ben
And that it can follow you, like, when you leave.
11:34
Case Aiken
Yeah, but no one deserves it.
11:35
Ben
No.
11:37
Sam
Right? It's not like Bill Pullman or Sarah Michelle's Geller's boyfriend or even the cop are, like, some sort of, like, their wife beaters. Like, it's not like she's going after someone who would do, like, the same kind of crime. She's just like, I'm just angry. And you showed up, and now you've looked into my eyes, and now you're gonna die. That's how angry and vengeful I am.
11:59
Case Aiken
Yeah. It's just interesting because, like, again, I get it with, like, the intrusive elements. Like, if it's someone who is violating the norms of, like, what the spirits require for them to rest peacefully, I get, like, someone moving into their house, it's going to be a trigger for the ghost.
12:13
Ben
Well, it's not just that. I mean, I don't think, like, she's conscious of it. She has become, like, completely this spirit of malevolence. Just. That's it. You know? She does. She's not thinking like, hey, this person's in my house. Hey, get out of here.
12:24
Case Aiken
She's.
12:24
Ben
She's just hatred because of what was done to her. That's all she is.
12:27
Case Aiken
That's true. That that might be me trying too hard to, like, add reason to the ghost stuff. And I would argue that this movie does a really good job of making the ghost stuff seem irrational in a way that I think is very nice. The toshio, like, the sun ghost constantly being. Observing of the people who are about to be victims. Even though he is, in theory, not malevolent spirit in that scenario. Kind of just there.
12:50
Ben
Yeah, he is like, if you watch the other juans, for sure. But in this one, he, like, tries to pull back a little bit because he is creepy and offsetting on his own. Right? Just like this kid just sitting there without any closer.
13:00
Case Aiken
The ghost cat.
13:01
Ben
And, yeah, the cat.
13:02
Case Aiken
Yeah. Like, there's a whole bunch of ghosts that are in this, like, this trinity of the mother, the son, and the holy cat.
13:10
Sam
Right. I think that there is a little bit of that. He's kind of like the herald. Right, of oncoming doom in this one. Like, that's kind of what he is, but that doesn't make him not malevolent. He definitely has those moments he's used to kind of as bait to lure people into situations that they shouldn't be. Right. Like, the cop is lured into that, like, you know, with the sound, and I'm like, no, don't go. It's not a real child, you know, which is such a classic horror kind of trope, right. He's used as kind of the herald, the warning and the bait of the ghost, right. It's almost like his mother and he and the cat are really kind of one entity now of this larger malevolent grudge.
14:07
Case Aiken
Yeah. It's like, almost like the act that created them, and they're just representations of, like, whatever. That lingering anger.
14:14
Sam
Right. Of just the resentment of the violence that happened in that home. Because even there are times, at least in the end, in the cutscenes, where you see the husband, right, he's the perpetrator of this act. He's there too. So it's like the spirit of the grudge is not really any one of those three people, but it is the actual resentment of the spirits that kind of horrible, very physical and atrocious act happened there. Right. Like, this tragedy happened there. It's interesting because it creates just chaos for you. Right. And I think that's why maybe the ghosts victims are not linear, because it isn't. It's just violence. It's just anger. It's just resentment.
15:07
Ben
Yep.
15:08
Case Aiken
Yeah. Just lashing out at everyone who, like, touches them in any way.
15:12
Sam
Yeah.
15:12
Ben
Yeah. The place is scarred, like, for all time. That's kind of the idea. Yeah.
15:17
Sam
Right.
15:17
Case Aiken
Yeah. There's a spot where Karen Sarah Michelle Geller's character goes, like, I've been inside that house. And it's interesting that she immediately understands that element of it. Like, that the house is itself, like, if you cross the barrier into that space, like, you are effectively now a target. And that includes even, like, the sister of the family that moves in who barely goes into that space. You know, she's there when they, like, look at the house, but we're never shown her, like, going inside, but it.
15:41
Ben
Attaches itself to her at that point. She stepped in. That's enough.
15:44
Case Aiken
Exactly.
15:44
Ben
So she can go home, she can go wherever it's gonna follow her. And even in the sequels, like they follows them to you United States and stuff.
15:51
Case Aiken
So actually, this is a good spot to bring up that I am only familiar with this specific movie. I was aware that it was an adaptation of a japanese movie, and I am aware that it is a larger franchise, but I haven't watched them. And I know, Ben, that you were planning on watching Juwan, the Ju one, the grudge. Pardon me? Because it's the Ju one.
16:08
Ben
I've seen him many times. Yeah.
16:10
Case Aiken
So I would be curious if you want to share more. And I am assuming that, Sam, you've never watched the rest of the movies in the series, right?
16:15
Sam
I actually have watched the japanese version of the grudge.
16:18
Ben
I know, I would not have guessed just for this.
16:23
Sam
Why would I have done that? Why? No, no. Many, many years ago.
16:27
Case Aiken
Wait, we need the story about why this happened because you prefaced your reason for watching this movie because you're a fan of Sarah Michelle Geller, which, to be fair, also one of the big reasons for why I saw this movie.
16:38
Ben
But she's not in Juwan, so what happened?
16:41
Case Aiken
Exactly. That's why I never watched Juwan.
16:44
Sam
So around this time, I feel like this is like Samantha lore that the podcast people may not need. But around this time, a group of my friends were like, Sam, we need toughen you up because you're such a scaredy cat. And so I was exposed to a number of a lot of asian horror films specifically. So audition, the ring, the grudge, great movies. There was a Taiwan where someone got someone's eyes, or sisters. No, they got like there was an eye transfer. Like someone got someone's eyes and then it allowed them to seek us. Yes. Which was like, I know they did an american version, but like, the original is perfect and amazing and has a really lovely, like, buddhist end, which was like, really nice because for me, as a scaredy cat, I was like, oh, that soothed my soul a little bit.
17:42
Ben
Did it toughen you up? Are you tough or not?
17:44
Sam
No, no. Actually what it did was it made me really fully understand that you cannot zombie movie your way into being a braver person.
17:58
Ben
That's a motivational poster for you.
18:01
Sam
You cannot watch a bunch of horror movies. Because the truth is that them making me do that, making me sit down and watch these films, which arguably are great films, like, there are things that I will never forget. I will never forget parts of audition I will never, like. It's been, you know, since the early two thousands. And I still remember that needle going into the eyes. And I remember it. It's in. It is ingrained in me forever. Great made movies. However, I did not enjoy watching them. And it just confirmed for me I don't need to watch horror movies, because movies should be enjoyable to you. You should get something catheter, cathartic out of your films. And, like, for people who enjoy hard, that's amazing. That's wonderful. Like, there's a lot of great stuff out there for you. More power to you.
18:48
Sam
It's just not for me. And life is too short to spend 2 hours white knuckling it so I can prove something to people. I'm not in my twenties anymore. I don't have to do that. So that's basically what happened. No, I did not toughen up. I just learned how to say no.
19:04
Case Aiken
This, however, does take us back to the original question, which is Ben. So discussing the broader series and the comparison with the japanese source material, what are big things that really stand out to you? And Sam, please chime in on anything specific to Juan the grudge, but I'm curious because I've read analyses of the differences between them. But what are your perspectives on it?
19:23
Ben
Well, the first two juons were kind of direct to video. They were very short, but they kind of explained the murder and everything that happened there. And it was the success of Ringu that allowed the jew on the grudge film to be made. So that film didn't necessarily need to explain everything about the murders. Other than that, it's essentially the same. There's like a caretaker that comes in, then it goes into the family that moved there. It's a lot of the same beats, and it was actually both films due on the grudge, and the grudge were done by the same director.
19:51
Case Aiken
Yeah.
19:52
Ben
So, yeah, it's pretty much the same, except white people are in it, and it might be a tad more accessible. The grudge two is a little bit more insane. The curse sort of spreads. I kind of love it for that reason. But Juan, the grudge is definitely the one that should be checked out of the two. Also, fun fact, Sadako versus Kayako is where the ring girl versus the grudge girl was made in Japan. And that is not a great film, but is well worth checking out just for the insanity of it.
20:19
Case Aiken
I love that japanese cinema is not afraid to just be like, what if fucking, we have these two monsters just go at it immediately, like, there's no build up, there's just like, no, we just.
20:28
Ben
We know the Freddy versus Jason. It's put them together.
20:31
Sam
Right. Exactly.
20:32
Case Aiken
It's like how every season of Super Sentai, which is the japanese source for Power Rangers, in between each season there's a crossover movie as a handoff between teams of superheroes. And we don't get those here in the states. Like, there are crossovers, but usually those are american made. But, like, they just love their goddamn crossovers in a way that I think is, like, really adorable.
20:49
Ben
Yeah.
20:50
Case Aiken
Their approach to continuity and lore is much more just like, whatever's fun.
20:54
Ben
But yeah. To directly answer the question, though, between the grudge and you on the grudge, they're essentially the same. Just white people, I would argue.
21:01
Sam
Yeah. Like, I remember, like, a friend just being like, why? Why would they make this, like, we can just watch.
21:07
Ben
You can just watch the other one. Which is better? Like, more to the source, I do think. Well, I mean, it does explain the murders it is there in that movie, but not as prevalent.
21:16
Case Aiken
Yeah. Also, it's not weird to make an english version of a movie.
21:20
Ben
Oh, better special effects, for sure. Like, they have a bigger budget.
21:23
Case Aiken
Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, there's. I mean, Sam Raimi's behind this whole production. It's being championed into an american market. It is interesting that they decide to keep the setting as Japan just to have white transplants for it. But I think they are aware that the ring was updating the setting for America. And, like, it would be difficult to, like, fully update that setting that way. I mean, I guess, hey, don't step on my.
21:47
Ben
My case, my treatment.
21:49
Case Aiken
Well, you know, it's just like, I'm just saying that, like, in an effort to be different than the ring, which is like, okay, we're gonna set it here in America. Like, the argument being made is, like, we're gonna keep a lot the same. We're just going to make it more accessible to an american audience without completely losing the flavor that it's coming from. Especially because this has, like, I'm really trying not to, like, lean into the orientalism of the setting kind of component, but, like, there's some of that in terms of explaining, like, well, why there's a ghost. And I guess you could do that in any setting.
22:21
Ben
Yeah, we have ghosts here. We have creepy places here, you know.
22:24
Case Aiken
Yeah, that's true.
22:25
Sam
I think they walked the fine line with this. And I think it's because. Right. It's the original director and you've got lots of japanese people saw on the.
22:31
Case Aiken
Set a lot of the original cast. Comes back and reprises the dolls.
22:34
Sam
Right, right. So I think that's why, like, that line was kind of walked. So, like, well, we're like, yes, it is there. It is part of it, right? Like, the general, like, ooh, Japan. But, like, it's presented, right? Like, the people behind the camera are japanese. The people controlling the narrative are japanese. And so it doesn't really cross over to a space where, like, ooh, you know, we've covered some movies where we've been like, oh, God.
23:00
Ben
Yeah, I think I was watching it over here at the time. It'd be like, okay, well, I live in America, so I'm safe. You know, I don't feel in danger.
23:09
Case Aiken
I would argue that there is a comparison to be made to when a show goes from, like, off Broadway to Broadway, and, like, they try to bring over the cast, but not everyone always comes back. Or when a play goes to film.
23:19
Sam
Right.
23:19
Case Aiken
You can make a case that, like, what they're trying to do here is that they're like, well, we're gonna get a lot more eyes on it. We have more money to do it if we remake the movie as opposed to just bring it over here. Because, like, yeah, you could spend some money on translators, but we. You know that there's a threshold for, like, the amount of an american audience for a foreign film, even subtitled.
23:38
Sam
Yeah.
23:38
Case Aiken
More so in 2004 than now. You know, we're in a post parasite world now. You can have more of that crossover appeal. But if they really wanted to make $187 million on this movie, they needed to remake the movie for an american audience and bring in people that are going to get butts in the seats. Sarah Michelle Geller gets some butts in the seats. It got two out of three of the people on this call their butts in the seats, but by having it be the same director and having so much of the cast carry over and having it be set in Japan, you can do effectively what happens with, like, good producers who don't just recast everyone when it goes from Broadway to movie? If the timing is right and you can make that work, you're protecting these people.
24:19
Case Aiken
And now they have an american film credit. They're getting royalties on a movie that made $187 million in the US on the box office. Not even talking about residuals.
24:29
Sam
Yeah. Was there also, like, an added incentive shooting in Japan in terms of, like, being able to keep the budget low? Like, do we know that? Like, it's there? Anything that's said that way?
24:42
Ben
I don't know that I would just guess that he's like, oh, I can get the original director. I'm going to kind of. And the original director, like, more comfortable. In Japan story, the script is already written. You know, rewriting it to, like, take place. If that guy were doing it to take place in a place he doesn't know would be, you know, overhead that he wouldn't want to approach.
24:59
Sam
Yeah.
25:00
Case Aiken
I mean, clearly to get all of the cast and the creative crew behind it from the original movie onto this one and still have it only be $10 million, like, clearly the going rate for everyone was fairly low.
25:12
Sam
Right.
25:13
Case Aiken
You know, like, the biggest people in.
25:16
Ben
Here, Sarah Michelle, you're getting how much?
25:19
Case Aiken
So, like, Sarah Michelle Gellar obviously is famous, and she's done a lot of horror movies at this point, but while she is something of a scream queen, her biggest thing is a tv show.
25:29
Ben
Yeah.
25:29
Case Aiken
Then William Map of the. I have no idea how to pronounce this is Tom Cruise's cousin. But, like, that's the only thing that is, like, really that interesting. I think he was in lost, which is a show I never really paid attention to. Clea Duvall is kind of a that girl kind of actor, especially at this time, where she'd been in some stuff. She'd been in, like, the faculty, for example, and, like, on heroes, or probably heroes came after this, actually. But either way, like, recognizable. She's a look so, like, there's, you know, that then, like, probably Bill Pullman's the biggest actual actor in this. But I mean, like, he's only there.
26:00
Ben
For, like, two scenes, maybe.
26:02
Case Aiken
Yeah, not that much. And also, I like Bill Pullman, but, like, it's not like he's, like, a huge draw for a movie. There's never been a movie where I'm like, oh, Bill Pullman's in that movie. Like, I should go see that. Who else is going to really be a draw for people? Ted Raimi, because he is in it.
26:18
Ben
Because Sam Raimi producing. I mean, that's a big name, right?
26:22
Case Aiken
Yeah. And, like, so Sam Raimi being attached to it is big, but also, like, Sam Raimi being attached to a horror movie isn't weird. So it's not like there's something, like, hugely novel about that whole thing. So I'm guessing that they were able to keep the cost down. And also, Sam Raimi producing means that he's controlling his own, like, the money that's involved for him. So. So they're able to keep the cost down and still, like, have some relatively popular people. This is kind of like, a moneyball kind of movie. When you think about it, like, they, like, really, like, picked out the right details to be like, yeah, it's gonna be cheap to do it this way. We'll make this much of a return on it.
26:53
Case Aiken
We'll get people who are famous enough to draw the right people or not look weird in this cast. I'm particularly thinking, like, Sarah Michelle Geller is going to be a draw for people, and it's like, okay, cool. But we can probably get her cheap because she's coming off of a tv show right now. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.
27:06
Ben
Like, you're gonna get so many angry letters from Sarah Michelle Geller lawyers.
27:12
Case Aiken
I'm just saying that, like, it makes sense where it's like, okay, this is a good casting choice with, like, a good hook for the movie, and it's coming out in the wake of the ring being super popular. And, like, okay, we can shoot it in Japan and keep it kind of cheap, and we can reuse sets, and we can do, you know, yada, yada. All these things that are making it a very effective movie.
27:30
Ben
Yeah, I didn't think about it that way, but you're kind of ruining it for me.
27:33
Case Aiken
I didn't want to be talking about it. Yeah. Like, again, sorry, Ben.
27:38
Sam
I feel like this is my fault. I asked the question.
27:41
Case Aiken
Well, no, because, like, I am actually, like, fascinated about, like, those aspects of the production. Like, why?
27:48
Sam
Because her boyfriend is also from, like, a. Like, a CW or CW show.
27:53
Case Aiken
He was on Roswell.
27:54
Ben
Yeah.
27:55
Case Aiken
But also with his hair. I totally thought it was Adrian Grenier at first when he first popped on screen, and I was like, oh, nice. Another part of the Vincent Chase Lohr for my entourage fans out there, which.
28:06
Ben
Isn'T the two of us. Yeah, like, I think the two of us.
28:09
Sam
Like, I understood your reference, but I was just like, well, silence. Cause, okay.
28:13
Ben
Yeah. How'd you feel about, like, the CGI in the movie? Cause there's, like, only, like, two scenes, maybe with unbelievable CGI, I would argue, like, where the ghost comes down and, like, where one person's missing a jaw.
28:26
Case Aiken
It didn't bother me. And I mean that from, like, a standpoint of watching it today, I think that it looked perfectly effective as a horror movie. I think with a here's a ghost kind of horror movie. Your threshold is a little bit on the lower side. You want to see some of the gore and the weirdness and all that, but not necessarily care as much about the realism of it all and the shots that are the most aggressive with CGI are generally pretty short. Like, the tongue coming out of Yoko's mouth is pretty quick. It's also just kind of freaky to see that. So I remember in theaters when that scene happens, I was like, oh, my God. I can't believe they're showing that in.
29:04
Ben
A pg 13 movie. What?
29:06
Case Aiken
Even more so. But, like, that was my immediate reaction to it. So regardless of the quality of the CGI, I think it was used judiciously and pretty well.
29:13
Ben
I'm one of those people that always, like, tries to see in those seams. You know, it's just like, oh, that looks weird. Why does that look weird? Oh, this is CGI. And I'm trying to look like where the lines are, you know, in all of it.
29:25
Case Aiken
The weird shadow ghost thing that's on the security camera, which, you know, there's no way for that not to be CGI.
29:31
Ben
Like, well, that one's passable.
29:33
Case Aiken
I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm saying that one kind of just sets you up for, like, all right, there's gonna be some CGI that is, like, obviously CGI. But we're here for the movie. And so far, all the cuts have been pretty good. Kind of thing. Like, that one, it has the benefit of, like, being on a CRT.
29:47
Ben
Yeah, right. It's on CRT. So it looks crappy anyway. Like, everything does. The hallway does, but it does kind.
29:53
Case Aiken
Of look PlayStation one ish in terms of, like, the shadow effects, which is fine. Again, like, it's sort of setting you up for, like, this thing's not supposed to be look realistic. Like, it is a shadow taking on shape and walking into the light. It doesn't need to look real. And in fact, it should kind of look fake to your eyes. And it should look fake to your eyes in a way that is, like, kind of creepy. And I think that, like, those kind of shots make me okay within the gore shots that are cg not necessarily being as, like, good as it could be.
30:21
Sam
Yeah.
30:21
Case Aiken
You know, it's not a movie that, like, really relied on its cg. In fact, like, very much tried to.
30:26
Ben
It's only, like, to its credit. Yeah, yeah.
30:29
Case Aiken
Like, I think it's kind of like a jaw situation where it's like, yeah, it's a shitty puppet, but, like, how often do you, like, see a full jaw situation? Well played, sir.
30:40
Sam
Wow. Case, that's disrespectful to everyone in this movie who lost a job.
30:46
Case Aiken
Oh, man. I guess I just bear a grudge against them. Terrible sh. Before the call started, my wife and I were discussing the movie, and she kept asking me questions. Cause she knew that I started watching the movie, was in the room for a couple of seconds scenes, but had generally tried to avoid it because she also doesn't like horror movies. And she kept on being like, did this person get grudged? Did that person get grudged? And so we just were using Grudge as a verb the entire time. No, fact. It's grudge.
31:12
Ben
He really isn't coming.
31:14
Case Aiken
Exactly. And then we're making jokes that the sequel should be g two grudgement day. But I'm mad at us for not using grudge as a verb more often in this podcast call.
31:24
Sam
So I'm sorry.
31:27
Ben
You don't grudge me, sir. I grudge you. Well, I grudge you two times infinity.
31:33
Case Aiken
All right, so let's talk about the thing that actually is pointed out to as being, like, the reason why, like, Roger Ebert and other people didn't like it, which is the. The continuity stuff of it all. Like, the. The timeline is, like, a little all over the place because it starts with, like, the Yoko death, and then we get the immediate following Yoko stuff, and then we get the flashback to like, them first, like, buying the house and moving in. And then, pardon me, we start off very. The very beginning with the Bill Pullman death, then the Yoko death and etcetera. And then at a certain point, we get the flashback to Bill Pullman, like, going and investigating this house also.
32:06
Case Aiken
Then we cut back to the Karen character moving through everything, and then she travels in time to the past, which I'm actually the most okay with that part there. However, that whole situation works well, it's followable.
32:18
Ben
Like, you followed her up into the house, and then she starts seeing the pass in front of her. So.
32:22
Case Aiken
Yeah. And that one feels like what were saying, that it's the incident itself that is more the ghost than necessarily the individual souls of people there.
32:30
Sam
Right.
32:30
Case Aiken
The situation is a curse, a mark on this house.
32:35
Sam
And that's why everyone's grudged.
32:37
Case Aiken
That's why these people get grudged.
32:38
Sam
You're welcome.
32:39
Case Aiken
Yes, thank you.
32:41
Ben
But the acronym storytelling, though, that is a staple of the series. It had always done that. So if you were to not do that, you would be pulling away from the original structure of the grudge. So you would have to ask yourself, is that okay?
32:55
Sam
I think the most confusing part, because I think, like, until you get to the sisters attack, all the jumping back and forth is pretty okay. Right? But you basically, like. Like, Sarah Michelle Geller, you see her go off to the hospital, right? And, like, you find out that the cops find these bodies and all this stuff. Right? Now, if you're paying attention, you realize that Sarah Michelle Geller was in the house when the phone call happens. But then right after that scene, they jump a little back, like, basically 30 minutes back in time to the sister leaving the message of being like, hey, guys, I hope everything's okay with mom. And then she's attacked. So up until this point, you're going farther into the past, right? You're going a few days or years or things like that.
33:47
Sam
And so you're kind of like, oh, well, that happened before. Before. But now it's literally like four before 30 minutes. Now it's like 30 minutes difference. And you're like, wait, I don't think.
34:00
Ben
It'S ever 30 minutes. No, because, like, the sister is the family that moves in, like, the one that has all those people before, like, when they initially moved in, right?
34:09
Sam
And that's when Sarah Michelle Geller is in the house, when she leaves the voice message.
34:16
Case Aiken
Like, voice message like that. I couldn't tell if the sister had tried to call a couple of times, and we just heard one, and then there's a later one. Either way, it's like something's going on.
34:28
Sam
Yeah, well, I thought it was the same because it's actually the same words. Like, like, it's exactly the same words I always have closed caption on. So what was said, like, when Sarah Michelle Gillery hears it's the same exact paragraph of words. Okay, so, like, it is, like the same thing. So it's like you jumped back to, like, when Sarah was in the house and had just called her boss because Karen looks to find the phone and she can't find the phone. And then their sister leaves this voice message. And it's the same words that when we jump to the sister's office when she gets grudged. When. Yes. And then she gets grudged. That is there to, like, basically let you know. Like, oh, yeah. Once you cross into this house, you will be grudged. Right? Like, it's just a confirmation, really.
35:16
Sam
But it is a little bit confusing because you thought there were two voice messages. But, like, it was the same line. It was the same moment. Right? So, like, that part of the movie, like, I understood what was happening, but it was still, like, a little bit. Like, I was like, oh, like, that gets a little messy because with everything else, you were going back a few days or several years or stuff like that. So the jump back and forth was a little less jarring, but that was the first time where you, like, basically were, like. And previously about a half hour or so ago.
35:53
Ben
Meanwhile, when the phone rang.
35:57
Case Aiken
Yeah. Frankly, the time jumps weren't really that big of an issue for me. I was just kind of playing devil's advocate with what Roger Ebert said. I do agree that there were spots where I was, like, feeling confused about it. Although now that I'm thinking more about it, I think I was more confused about why the family was moving and that the sister was also there.
36:14
Sam
Oh, yeah. I was like, wait. I actually turned to my. To Greg, and I was like, wait.
36:20
Case Aiken
I was trying to clock, like, wait, who's the sister? Who's the wife? Is there a wife?
36:24
Sam
Like, I actually thought, wait, everybody moved to Japan and got a job in Japan. Like, everybody in this whole family. Like, what was the conversation like? It was just like, well, my job's moving me to Japan. And my mom.
36:39
Ben
No way.
36:40
Case Aiken
My job's moving me to Japan. Right.
36:42
Sam
And it was like, wow, what a koinki dink. Like, you know, like. Or was it like, the sister was like, oh, you're taking my mom to Japan. I will immediately apply for a transfer. I will also work in Japan.
36:55
Case Aiken
Right.
36:55
Ben
Clearly, I'm working in the wrong industries.
36:58
Case Aiken
Yeah, no, like, that's, like, I'm realizing that's the thing. I was more confused at that point, and it just sort of was like, well, yeah, I guess the time jump scene is, like, a little confusing. And really, it's just that this contrivance that has to exist for it to be american actors set in a japanese space, that they had to have this whole, like, I've been transferred to Japan kind of thing. You just don't need that in the original movie. Like, that was the thing I was more confused by.
37:23
Sam
I mean, honestly, I feel like it would have been fine to have had the sister calling from the US, because anywhere. Right. She's grudged. She's grudged.
37:36
Ben
So, like, you just, like, call, like, the house and, like, the travels through the phone lines to get you. That would be scary.
37:43
Sam
Yeah. Like, I mean, that. No, no. Like, she had, like, I think it'd be fine, like, if she dropped her family off, because, like, there's no signs that she's, like, living in the home with them. Right?
37:55
Ben
So she has her own nice apartment.
37:58
Case Aiken
Yeah, very.
37:58
Sam
She's got her own place. Like, which, by the way, you moved to Japan with your family, possibly because your mom is sick. Why wouldn't you just stay in the house? Not the point. The point is. The point is they could have easily, like, I know I dropped you guys off, but I'm home, blah, blah. And she could have. She walked into the house. She was grudged already. No matter where you go, the grudging will find you.
38:24
Case Aiken
Well, I guess the thing is, because this is 2004, and it's playing with technology that's even older than that.
38:30
Sam
True.
38:31
Case Aiken
They had to be able to get the security camera footage.
38:33
Sam
Yeah. Okay, fair enough. Fair enough.
38:36
Case Aiken
And that's some vhs tape shit there. Like, they weren't going to be sending that over the Internet.
38:43
Sam
They were not.
38:44
Case Aiken
Unless it was, like, four minute wav files.
38:47
Ben
That would be more confusing if it were.
38:49
Case Aiken
Yeah.
38:49
Ben
Somewhere she were in America. And it's like, wait a second. Why. Why is this elevator thing happening over here?
38:54
Case Aiken
God, can you imagine if they were using, like, limewire to, like, transfer the.
38:58
Sam
Files four days later?
39:01
Ben
By the way, your sister's dead. Here's some video.
39:05
Case Aiken
Speaking of the security camera footage, even on my rewatch, I was surprised that it showed anything, that it, like, showed the ghost and that whole thing. Like, I was surprised that it wasn't just, like, glitched or something like that. When someone goes to watch the tape later, not when the sister is watching it the first time. Like, it makes sense that she would be freaked out by it and see it. But it is surprising to me that you can have tape evidence that ghosts are real.
39:30
Sam
Well, here's the thing. The cop was in the house, so technically, he's already grudged. So, like, maybe he can see it because he is also grudged. Like, maybe if someone else watched it who had never passed the threshold, maybe they would not have seen it. But he's already marked.
39:49
Case Aiken
I would have liked that scene in that scenario.
39:51
Sam
Yeah.
39:51
Case Aiken
Specifically, because, like, that is just my one thing where it's just like, oh, wait, could you put this on, like, TMZ? Like, it's like, ghosts are real.
39:59
Ben
You do the ring thing with it. Like, it makes it tangible, right? Where it's like, okay, now there's this thing that's out there in the world. Yeah, I watch it. I might get grudged even though I never set foot in the house.
40:08
Sam
Right.
40:09
Case Aiken
Unless you can, like, overload the ghost by having, like, too many people watch it. And, like. Like, what if you just had a big party? Like, would they all get, it's gonna.
40:15
Ben
Be a big day. It's like, Santa. How could she grudge everyone in one night?
40:19
Sam
Watch me go luckily, we're a multibodied entity. It's all of our vengeance.
40:30
Case Aiken
So I would say that the majority of the achronological elements are fine. And I actually really enjoy the Karen walking into the flashback sequence. Like, I think that is rather fun. Having her be kind of a ghost to Bill Pullman's character is, like, a nice bit right there. Is that how it is in Juwon?
40:48
Ben
I believe so, yeah.
40:49
Sam
By the way, I found that terrifying. Like, Bill Pullman's just stare at her. It's like, oh, my God, is he gonna change? Is he gonna turn into something else? And it was so it didn't happen, but my brain was just running with it.
41:02
Ben
I love how she touches him, and he's like, wait, are we aware of each other? And then she, like, walks. He walks past her to, like, look at something.
41:09
Case Aiken
Yeah, but he reacts like a cold. Like, he reacts as, like, it is startled. Like he's being haunted at that point.
41:17
Sam
Right? Yeah.
41:17
Case Aiken
Makes you wonder, like, all the other times that they're interacting with. With the ghost. Like, when, like, Toshio actually talks to her, to Karen the first time he, like, when she discovers it's like there was a boyden. Is that an echo of Toshio, the living boy versus the ghost Toshio that we see at all those points?
41:34
Ben
The answer is yes.
41:36
Sam
Yeah.
41:37
Ben
I mean, I think it does try to have it both ways and always, like, it's just like, a fragment of the personality that's sort of there, but it's really just, you know, like, the playfulness leading you into a false sense of security. That's what Toshio is meant to do.
41:49
Sam
Yeah. He's a bait.
41:51
Ben
Yes, he's bait and switched.
41:54
Sam
He's the little light on that fish down in the deep water, just hooking you in before his jaws come for you. You know, bottom of the ocean is also very scary, guys, because he does his own scares.
42:05
Ben
Right? Like, he opens his mouth well, but.
42:07
Case Aiken
Those scares, which are just scares. Like, Toshio never kills anyone in this.
42:10
Ben
I think he does in ju one.
42:11
Case Aiken
Too, but, yeah, that's what I'm curious about. Like, if it's different in that. But I would say in this, like, it more feels like the sadness of the incident is represented by Toshio and that it's just like, he's really creepy because he was a murdered child that also, like, might have.
42:26
Ben
He didn't form his full understanding. He doesn't. Yeah, he doesn't know.
42:28
Case Aiken
Yeah, and, like, the cat seems very linked toshio as well.
42:32
Sam
Yeah, well, they were murdered in the same room.
42:35
Case Aiken
Right, exactly. Well, exactly. And, like, isn't, like, the cat, like, coming out of Toshio's mouth a couple of times when, like, the mouth opens up?
42:40
Sam
Yeah, there are times when he meows instead of, like. Like, he, like, meows instead of making noise.
42:46
Case Aiken
Yeah. So, like, that. That seems more of just, like, this weird, horrific fate for this character who is stuck being tortured just by existing in this way. Like, it feels sadder than the woman who is, you know, much more rage filled. Like, is actually, like, killing the people. Like, in this movie. Again, if in the broader franchise, Toshio is also as much of an active thing, then I don't retract. But I would say in the text of this movie, it still works this way. But, like, in this movie, Toshio feels more like a figure of sadness, that the scares are more just like, a byproduct of being a ghost rather than necessarily being aggressive. Act as the way is. Like, with the mom who crawls up and murders people and apparently rips off someone's jaw.
43:30
Sam
Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, I think that he does kind of help to catch people, though, because there are moments where helps to immobilize people. Like, he does get the grudging eyes occasionally. So he's not completely just sorrow. He's still part of it. And listen, something like that is going to have all those different assets, right? Like, if we're just thinking about, like, the. The event as the emotion. Like, if. If the grudging is specifically just the anger at, like, the. The event that happened or the resentment for that and all three of their emotions being involved in that.
44:17
Ben
That's how I read it.
44:18
Sam
Yeah, yeah. The. The husband, he spurned on by this jealousy and resentment. This is not me condoning anything he did. And Eddie murder's okay, folks. He's burned on by this jealousy and resentment and this irrational rage, right? And he really does this horrific thing and really, like, beats his wife, murders her for anyone who doesn't. Didn't watch this spoiler 2004. You should have seen it already. And he, like, murders her in front of his child and then clearly cannot fully deal with that. And then he drowns his child, slits his cat's throat, and then hangs himself. Right? So, like, this is, like, every single person in that home is in some state of pain.
45:10
Sam
Whether that pain was, like, violent rage that basically snowballed into, like, a horrific act or like, the fact that his wife has been probably stalking a teacher and having her own secret, one sided love affair with a person who doesn't know her, for all intents and purposes, and that is her affair. So it's like she's longing for something outside of this home, and then this innocent child who is just a victim of all of it. Like, all of that rage, all of that hurt, all of that dysfunction is the grudge.
45:51
Ben
That's it.
45:52
Sam
And that's huge, right? Like, so, like, I. He is part of the sadness and the sorrow and things like that, but he is still angry in his not being able to understand why his parents were what they were, I think. And he does help. He helps catch people. He pretends to be limp. He literally does that with Bill Pullman. When Bill Pullman comes in, he kind of. His hands are out there. Come inside. You know, like, he's adorable, but he's part of the malevolence. He's also evil.
46:27
Case Aiken
Is he dead? When Pullman first comes by, has that already happened?
46:32
Sam
I'm not sure.
46:35
Case Aiken
The tub is full. And I thought it seemed like it was like the ghost.
46:38
Ben
I think it had happened just recently before.
46:42
Sam
Yeah, yeah.
46:43
Case Aiken
I think he's a ghost at that point, which is wild. That's another one of those spots where I'm like, wait, what's going on?
46:49
Ben
I've seen this movie ten times, and you made me, like, think for a second, like, wait a minute.
46:53
Sam
Yeah, I think he is, because that is basically how he gets him in the house to be grudged. Because I think what happens is that Pullman goes there basically because he got another letter, and that's the only time.
47:09
Ben
He'S been in the house. Right. And he gets grudged because that's the opening scene, so.
47:13
Sam
Right, yeah, it had to happen before. He's basically going there to, like, talk to whoever's sending him the letters because he says to his colleague, I don't know who this is. She must have been one of my students, but I don't really know.
47:28
Ben
It could be lying, too, but. Yeah, that's right.
47:32
Sam
But as far as we know from all the things that we've now brought up from the script is kind of pointing at this was a possible former student of his who then became obsessed with him and loved him from afar and stalked him and, like, kind of had this one sided love affair with him, sending him these. These letters with her face, watching him when he went out, you know, stuff like that. And so from what we see is basically he's going there to figure it out. But when he gets there, no one answers the door. Nothing happens. And then these are little tiny arms are there, and he's worried because the kid looks rough. The kid's already beaten up.
48:15
Case Aiken
Yeah.
48:16
Sam
Right. So, like, that's why I was like, oh, I think. I think the kid's dead.
48:20
Case Aiken
Right. That's. That's what I was thinking, too. Like, I think the kid. Because either the kid is, like, mourning the loss of its mother at that spot, or the kid is already dead and it's mourning the whole situation there.
48:30
Sam
Yes. Yeah, I think that's what it is.
48:34
Case Aiken
I think he's already grudged.
48:35
Sam
Yeah, he's already grudged. That's why in the beginning of the movie, he jumps off.
48:40
Case Aiken
Is this turning into a fifth episode?
48:42
Sam
Yes. Yeah, it kind of is slow.
48:45
Case Aiken
Like, Ben, I'm very curious what your notes are, but, like, most of mine have already been addressed and, like, kind of resolved in this whole conversation. And I'm like, oh, wow. I'm kind of just, like, enjoying this movie more from a structural standpoint than, like. Like. And kind of being like Roger Ebert. Pish posh, shut up. Because, like, again, it was ultimately a really successful movie.
49:04
Ben
Ebert is a hack is what we say on our show all the time because people come in, like, citing him. I mean, I do have an. A treatment for it that I think would, like, make it a bit more accessible to the american audiences that came in.
49:17
Case Aiken
But it's a pretty. I would be really down to hear that. And I'm actually kind of curious. Like, this is actually a fun situation, which is that we're going to kind of reels of justice this one right now in that. Ben, I want to.
49:28
Ben
Not guilty.
49:30
Case Aiken
Well, absolutely not guilty. But, like, make this a situation where, like. Cause I, like, I don't really have a pitch. And, like, Sam, I'm guess, like, I'm guessing you don't really have a pitch either, right?
49:39
Sam
I don't really have a pitch. No, I honestly don't.
49:42
Case Aiken
We're gonna take a break, and we're gonna come back, and we're gonna listen to Ben's pitch. But what I'm kind of wondering right now is just so. Ben is, like, fully aware of what we. What we mean. So every five episodes, we look at a movie that was a success in spite of difficulty, as a proof of concept for the larger show. So, for example, the original Ghostbusters was a fifth episode, but a regular episode of the show was. Was Ghostbusters two? Or, like, the Predator was a fifth episode, because it's like, well, yeah, they all had diarrhea and, you know, there was like, so much, like, so much nightmare behind the scenes on that one.
50:14
Ben
Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, I would agree. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good movie. It was successful. We've all agreed on that.
50:20
Case Aiken
So.
50:20
Ben
Yeah, right. It could have been great.
50:22
Case Aiken
So that's what we mean when we say a fifth episode. And actually, what is interesting is that I had accidentally numbered this in my recording as 165, which would be a fifth episode, and then was like, I'm just going to change that once we're done recording. And it would be 166 and we would fit in a different movie. So what I'm curious of, when we come back, when we listen to your pitch, I am curious if it is a strong enough pitch that Sam and I will agree that, like, no, this should actually be episode 166 of the show and just a regular episode because, damn, you had a great pitch. Or is it going to be like, it's not that good, or is this going to turn into a fifth episode?
50:58
Case Aiken
Because we're talking about a movie that made $187 million off a $10 million budget being a remake of a japanese movie that, you know, like that. That's kind of wild.
51:08
Sam
Yeah.
51:08
Case Aiken
And like, this might be the first time where the nature of the episode changed. Actually, it's not. Might be. It is the first time where the nature of the episode is changing while we talk about it, because we're sort of appreciating the movie more just from this conversation.
51:20
Ben
Superman, real quick. And we'll make it that show somehow. We'll get there.
51:26
Case Aiken
All right, so let's take a quick break. We're going to shout out one of the awesome shows on our network. And when we come back, Sam and I are going to judge Ben's pitch and decide what kind of episode we're really listening to here. And listeners, you know the answer based on everything. But I'm curious, but I don't.
51:50
Ben
Have.
51:51
Sam
Are you tired of watching your beloved characters being tortured by careless authors? Are you sick of feeling like they.
51:57
Case Aiken
Could have swapped out all of the painful action and the plot would remain untouched?
52:01
Sam
Subscribe to books that the fortnightly book review podcast.
52:04
Case Aiken
Focusing on fictional depictions of trauma, we.
52:07
Sam
Assume that the characters reactions are reasonable and focus on how badly or well they were served by their authors.
52:13
Case Aiken
Join us for our minor character spotlights, main character discovery discussions, and favorite non traumatic things in the dark.
52:18
Sam
Books we love. Find us on Spotify, iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts.
52:25
Case Aiken
And we're back. All right, so, Ben, I have a whole spiel that I normally would give on an episode like this, but honestly, instead, Sam and I are just going to. I'm not going to say sit quietly. We'll ask questions as you present to try to understand. But I actually. I just want to hear this pitch. And like I said, the stakes are either this will be episode 165 and thus a fifth episode, or it will be episode 166, and thus a regular episode of the show. And not that there's any sort of particular value or merit to one or the other.
52:50
Ben
No cookies on either side.
52:52
Case Aiken
You get a no prize. Like, so.
52:54
Sam
No, there's no prize.
52:55
Case Aiken
Yeah, it's a no prize. That's an honor thing. I'll even type it up for you if you want the no prize. Oh, like, the template exists online for the Marvel no prize. I'll just change. I'll just change the. I'll change the header so it uses the CPOV logo instead of the Marvel comics logo. And, yeah, I will present a no prize if you are successful on this one. And again, the audience already knows because the episode title is going to indicate if this was the grudge. Got another pass or another pass at the grudge. I am curious. This is. This is actually kind of a wild episode as a result. Take it away.
53:29
Ben
All right. Putting myself back in time. The ring has just come out. Nothing else. Right? I think. Okay. What made the ring successful is it was accessible to american audiences. It took place in America. So I would make that choice to set it in America, to go along the same path of the ring. I would try to, like, utilize as much of that as I can. I wouldn't use the same director. If I could get as many people from the ring team as I could, like Gore Verbinski and that music score, all of that. But I still want to keep that iconography of the grudge, because that is different from the ring. Like the death rattle, the toshio, the head, and the hair, all of that. That will distinguish my film from the ring.
54:09
Ben
But I don't want people who are coming in here expecting to see another movie like the ring to leave disappointed, which I think they did in this case, with the 40% approval rate. I would still, like, have Sarah Michelle Gellar in it. She's fine. She'd be essentially the same character. She'd be introduced where there's all sorts of. She'd go into this house, there's creepy sounds, oppressive atmosphere. This fear follows her to her home. She starts seeing things, and she's marked now, you know, whereas. And we know that the previous caretakers disappeared all. You know, it's a remake. It's going to be essentially the same, the first movie in those plot beats. But I'm not gonna, like, jump around in time like they did because they found that confusing.
54:45
Ben
I'm gonna progressively go backwards in time, one step at a time, and then move my way forward. So now that I know that this family that she's a caretaker for is cursed, I'm going to make that plot, too, where she's gonna. These guys are coming in. They're seeing a japanese ghost, which kind of confuses them a little bit more fleshed out. I will use practical effects because I love practical effects. I'm gonna set a mystery up more so it's, like, more accessible. Like, who is this person in our house? Why is she japanese? And I'm gonna kind of, you know, intersperse those, like, ring mystery elements into it. Cause the ring was a mystery. As you know, Naomi Watts is, like, trying to figure out who this girl is that's gonna kill her and her son.
55:21
Ben
I'm gonna try and keep that, like, why is this thing haunting me even outside of my house? Go back even further in time. I'm gonna make my third plot. Kayako, the japanese woman. I think Americans need to, like, not necessarily be spoon fed, but we understand abusive relationships. I am going to make that the third plot. So that's going to make a lot more sense. We're going to see Toshio and her husband before they get haunted, before they get grudged. They'll be immigrants. They'll find themselves in America. They'll find America confusing and scary. The husband is abusive yet possessive. Kayako has an affair with american. Or maybe. Maybe I'd go with the ambiguity. I think either way works the same basic beats as I, like, peel the unwind back in time.
56:01
Ben
Then I snap forward to do that Sarah Michelle Geller thing where she gets to witness all of that, so I can essentially skip. I think the problem with the grudge is that information bomb at the end. I need to feed that more progressively, more methodically in that third act. But she's grudged now. She knows that. So I will keep the ending where she tries to burn down the house. I think the key to making it more japanese is I would have maybe a sister of either kayako or the husband who's never set foot in the house be Sarah Michelle Gellar's, like, link into, like, the japanese lore of it. But essentially, this could happen anywhere because we have ghosts here in America. We know anger here. We know abusive relationships here. But I want to keep that japanese flair to it.
56:43
Ben
That is my pitch.
56:45
Case Aiken
Okay. I rather like the way that you were saying, like, you step back time and then snap forward, working your way kind of thing. And focusing on the abusive relationship, I think is a really good call because I was thinking myself, like, oh, hey, it would be nice to establish a little bit more about that.
56:59
Sam
Right.
57:00
Ben
You need to feel more about this girl than you do.
57:02
Case Aiken
Yeah. I'm swayed, frankly. Like, I think this is a really good pitch.
57:07
Sam
Yeah.
57:07
Case Aiken
I think it addresses, like, some of the issues. Like you're identifying of the information bomb. I think you're winning on this one. And this is gonna be episode 166.
57:15
Sam
Yeah, I think so, too. Yeah. Because I was like, oh, he's gonna memento this. But that's kind of nice. Like, you know, we're gonna work on backwards. But. But, yeah, you are right. Like, one of the biggest problems when you said it, like, you're like, the biggest problem is the big information drop at the end. And that's true. I think they. I think maybe they felt like they were like. And now the twist. But it wasn't really a twist. It was just like all the information were missing. Right. It's like. It was actually very straightforward. It was just everything that we needed.
57:46
Ben
But most of the scares are great. Right. Keep them there. Keep the security camera stuff. Keep the hair. Keep the death rattle.
57:51
Case Aiken
Yeah. The hand in the hair, by the way. Like, we had. We didn't have talk about this one, but that shot is just so goddamn.
57:57
Ben
It's good.
57:57
Sam
It's so good.
57:58
Ben
It's in every version of the grudge. I think, like, the Juan in this and then in that, like, 2020 terrible remake. It's like, that hand is creepy. We got it. We gotta do the hand.
58:07
Case Aiken
Yeah. So I feel like I'm suede. I feel like. Ben, you just won a no prize from me. Sam, are you coming in?
58:13
Sam
Yes, absolutely.
58:15
Case Aiken
All right. Yeah, I think you're right. I think you successfully identified the issues that the movie ultimately has and presented a pretty good case for that one. So. Bravo.
58:25
Sam
Bravo.
58:26
Case Aiken
First time someone won another pass.
58:31
Sam
Your real prize is the friends you made along the way.
58:34
Ben
Exactly. This was a lot of fun, though. Thanks for having me on.
58:38
Case Aiken
Yeah, well, it's just. It's funny because the show intentionally, like, we. Like, while we often present our own pitches, like, is usually structured as, like. Well, we're just trying to identify the areas where it could be weak or strong, and we're just having fun, you know, like, we, like, we intentionally don't try to make it a contest because then it feels like trying to one up each other, and it should be just more like, here's the fun of reveling in this. And this has been just a really fun chat about the grudge. It's just like, I came into this thinking that I had more strong feelings in the negative than I ultimately did and realized that I really liked the movie.
59:09
Case Aiken
As we're having this whole conversation, which I love about movie conversations, like, I love film analysis and what the back and forth can sort of unlock and sort of your feelings about a thing. It can make you feel very strong about a thing that you hadn't really set down. I'm trying to make a grudge comparison. Like a ghost situation. I can't tie that one. I'm sorry.
59:31
Ben
Well, when were first talking about, like, me coming on, and I was, like, hearing the concept of the show, I was like, I kind of want to do the grudge. I don't know, maybe I want to hear an episode first. But I saw your wish list before I listened to the show, and I was like, oh, the grudge is on it. Okay. That locks it in. Yeah.
59:46
Case Aiken
And it's funny. I think I just put it on there just because I remembered as being the less successful follow up to the ring in terms of, like, the pop culture. Like, here's a japanese horror movie brought over to America situation. I was pleasantly surprised with how much I liked the movie. But at the same time, you do walk away from it being like, oh, this isn't as good as the ring. And, like, it's definitely one that, like, could be tightened up in a lot of spots. But those scares are great. So I'm really happy that I watched them. Really happy I rewatched it. So, Ben, thank you for that.
01:00:13
Ben
And you at home should, too.
01:00:14
Case Aiken
Yeah. So, like, my whole, like, rhythm is, like, kind of broken up here because it's just like, normally, it's just like, that was a really fun, like, back and forth in this whole thing, and instead it was just like, no, Ben. Ben. Like, I'm just, like, speechless. Like, Ben.
01:00:25
Sam
Yeah. Ben won.
01:00:27
Case Aiken
Ben won an episode of another pass, a show that is not a game show.
01:00:31
Ben
I find a way. I just need to win things, dammit.
01:00:36
Case Aiken
But you often win all kinds of things over on your own show. Why don't you give some plugs about reels of justice and anything else you want to plug. And where can people find you and follow you?
01:00:47
Ben
Yeah. Reels of justice. It's a show that I do with some friends. In case you've been on it twice, Sam, we'd love to have you if you feel like it'd be a fun thing to do. Essentially, it's a court where we decide if a movie is guilty of being a bad movie, but which is sort of a subjective opinion, but we try to make it objective by diluting the facts one side. All the positive arguments are over here, all the negative over there, and then you at home kind of get to be the jury and decide where lands for you, because we don't do good necessarily. It's like, is it not bad? There's a distinguishing line right there.
01:01:19
Case Aiken
The burden of proof is to prove it bad beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt.
01:01:23
Ben
Right? So it's like 50, okay, you let it go. And as you mentioned, we also did head to heads. Case has been on there twice. You should check those episodes out because he was great in them.
01:01:34
Case Aiken
Undefeated so far.
01:01:36
Ben
So far.
01:01:37
Case Aiken
So far, yeah. No, no. I will happily continue this streak. I have to at least hit three times to really be able to boast about it. But two for two, baby.
01:01:47
Ben
We'll put you against Ryan. No one beats Ryan.
01:01:50
Case Aiken
I think I was against Maynard the first time with alien three. Then I was against you for Phantom Menace versus Rise of Skywalker. So both great episodes and yeah, fun show. People should check it out.
01:02:01
Sam
Case was definitely proud of his alien three win.
01:02:04
Case Aiken
Oh, yeah.
01:02:05
Sam
He came back and boasted about it a lot.
01:02:07
Case Aiken
Oh, oh, yeah. Well, because we timed it so that it came out right around when we had an alien three episode. Another pass. So I was like, just like, just really feeling it. I was like, yeah, everything, man.
01:02:17
Ben
I'm the alien three guy, which is.
01:02:20
Case Aiken
Not a brand I ever expected to want or need, but at the same time. I'll take it. I'll take it. But yeah, everyone should check out reels of justice. It's such a fun show. Did you give us your social handles?
01:02:32
Ben
Just like every podcast out there, we're wherever you find podcasts, we're your next door neighbor. You'll find us.
01:02:39
Case Aiken
Yeah, wherever you go, there you are. So after they check out reels of justice, because that is a great show, they should come back on over to certainpov.com where they can find all kinds of great shows that are running. I'm going to give a shout out to fun and games with Matt and Jeff. Matt, our former editor and Jeff, our current editor, have positive discussions about video games as of the time of recording. They just got back from PAX east, and it's a great episode where they talk to all these indie game developers, and it's just a really positive conversation about what does gaming look like in 2024 and beyond. It's a really good, exciting series that has grown like so much since it first started. So I just want to give a shout out to that show specifically, but also@certainpov.com comma.
01:03:19
Case Aiken
You can find a link to our YouTube channel where you can see all kinds of stuff that we've been putting up there. We've been putting up full episodes of another passing Men of Steel recently there. But you can also find my Superman analog series and all the clips and everything that we've been putting up there. So check that out. Also, you can find a link to our discord server where you can come interact with us directly, and then you can also find more episodes of this show. Sam, what do we have coming up for the next episode?
01:03:42
Sam
Well, if you enjoyed this, next time we'll be talking about Highlander two, the quickening. But until then, enjoy this. Pass it on.
01:03:53
Ben
Thanks for listening to certain point of View's another pass podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.
01:04:06
Sam
Another pass is a certain pov production. Our hosts are Sam Alicea and case Aiken. The show is edited by Jeff Moonan. Our logo and episode art is by case Aiken. Our intro theme is by Vin Macri, and our outro theme is by Matt Brogan.
01:04:23
Case Aiken
Sam and I have a running gag that in a different reality, we're already.
01:04:26
Sam
Divorced because we would get along really well until maybe like middle of day because it was always such a long day, right?
01:04:36
Case Aiken
Exactly. So middle of the day, we would start bickering like an old married couple or maybe one that had already gotten divorced.
01:04:41
Ben
That is such an interesting idea for a story like reincarnation or something like that. Two people meet each other, they have a connection, but it turned out it was not a good one yet. They're still like, but I know everything about you. I'm so comfortable around so many aspects of what you are.
01:04:56
Case Aiken
And so we used to joke that she's not my future ex wife, she's my already have been ex wife, but.
01:05:02
Sam
From a different reality, were exes from the start, right, madam?
01:05:09
Ben
If I were your husband, I would drink it.