Another Pass at Another Pass at Tron Legacy

Let’s look back at the time Geoff Moonen joined Case to talk about Tron Legacy!

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Meeting summary:

●      The meeting focused on discussing the 10th episode of the podcast, which delved into the movie Tron Legacy. Key points included praise for the soundtrack by Daft Punk, analysis of character development and plot structure, and identification of pacing issues. The meeting also touched on the influence of video games and technology on the movie, as well as suggestions for future episodes and listener engagement.

Notes:

●      🎙️ Introduction and Episode Overview (00:00 - 02:30)

●      Case Aiken and Sam Alizea introduce the podcast and today's topic: Tron Legacy.

●      Discussion on the format evolution of the podcast and the collaborative nature of the hosts.

●      🎬 Tron Legacy Episode Recap (02:30 - 05:00)

●      Recap of the 10th episode of the podcast focusing on Tron Legacy.

●      Discussion on the movie's strengths and weaknesses, particularly its style and soundtrack by Daft Punk.

●      🎧 Soundtrack and Aesthetics (05:00 - 08:00)

●      Praise for Daft Punk's soundtrack and its cultural impact.

●      Discussion on the movie's visual aesthetics and how it compares to the original Tron.

●      🎭 Character and Plot Analysis (08:00 - 10:02)

●      Analysis of the casting and character development in Tron Legacy.

●      Discussion on the movie's plot structure and its shortcomings.

●      🕹️ Video Game and Tech Influence (10:02 - 20:19)

●      Discussion on the influence of video games and technology on Tron Legacy.

●      Comparison with other tech-centric movies and the evolution of computing.

●      📉 Structural and Pacing Issues (20:21 - 29:11)

●      Identification of structural and pacing issues in Tron Legacy.

●      Suggestions for improving the movie's narrative flow.

●      🌐 Internet and Modern Tech (29:12 - 40:59)

●      Discussion on how the movie's plot could have better incorporated modern technology and the Internet.

●      Comparison with other movies that successfully integrated tech themes.

●      🎥 Movie and Episode Reflection (40:59 - 51:09)

●      Reflection on the movie's impact and the episode's discussion.

●      Mention of the upcoming episode on Highlander 2.

●      📚 Behind the Scenes and Future Plans (51:09 - 01:03:44)

●      Behind the scenes look at the podcast production.

●      Discussion on future episodes and topics to be covered.

●      🎙️ Listener Engagement and Wrap-Up (01:03:44 - 01:14:16)

●      Encouragement for listeners to engage with the podcast on social media and Discord.

●      Wrap-up and final thoughts on the episode.

●      📢 Promotions and Sign-Off (01:14:16 - 01:22:14)

●      Promotion of other podcasts in the Certain POV network.

●      Final sign-off and thank you to listeners.

Transaction

00:00
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome to another pass at another pass podcast, I'm case Aiken, and as always on this look back down memory lane, I am joined by my co host, Sam Alizea.

00:11
Case
Hi, Sam.

00:13
Case
I am so happy to be here finally. And I'm sure you're happy to be here, too, since behind the scenes, you may have listened to the episode that we're talking about today in preparation for, I think, the one two back from now.

00:24
Sam
Yeah, but it's okay because, you know, the thing is that this episode is short, and the. The audio is relatively good. I mean, like, there's a little, you know, every now and then. Love you back. But this is not a bad episode to listen to. And it's Jeff. We love Jeff. So.

00:43
Case
Yeah, it's a Jeff isoude.

00:44
Sam
It's a Jeff's sode.

00:46
Case
Oh, we should actually say what the movie is since I pivoted.

00:49
Sam
Oh, yeah, yeah. Sorry, people.

00:51
Case
Yeah. So today we're looking back at one of the earliest episodes of another past. We were looking at the 10th episode, which was on Tron Legacy. Yeah, yeah, I was. I was pretty happy with this episode. I mean, you know, I think this is the. The type of movie I love tackling the most on this show where I really like it, but at the same time, it is objectively bad.

01:10
Sam
Yeah. I also think that this one. I think with this episode, we're getting closer to the format that we currently have. Like, we're not quite there yet. Still a little more freeformed. It's not quite as structured as another past has become, but definitely, like, jeff and you have done a few of these by now, and so you're kind of like, okay, let's talk about some stuff, and now let's talk about things that we want to build together to, like, fix the thing. So I think this is. We're getting into space where we're getting closer to what another pass has become.

01:53
Case
Yeah. I mean, a one one between me and Jeff is going to be sort of like that just regardless, because he and I originated the format. And this is just how we talk as friends. Like, we are constantly putting forth mental challenges for us to put together the pieces of it all. Like, that's just how we operate. And whether it's d and D or movies or video games, like, there's always some kind of game to see who can brainstorm the coolest thing and, like, make it really collaborative and fun.

02:20
Sam
And Jeff is the perfect person to talk to about Tron with the video game background that it is. And since he's one of the people who have a lot of video game podcasts on our network. So it's fun, guys. It's a fun episode.

02:33
Case
Yeah, I mean, this is about the time when fun and games was launching. It would have been great if Jeff got Matt on, and at that point, I would have been just meeting Matt for the first time and use this as a soft pilot for their show. That would have been so fucking cool as a spin off kind of thing. Definitely because they've come on together to do plenty of video game movies over the years, and it's kind of wild that we only have Jeff here for this one. Yeah, but that's the answer. It's that I didn't know Matt at that point, and their podcast was just getting off the ground at that point.

03:08
Sam
Just in case anyone's wondering, where's Matt? What happened to Matt? We do love Matt.

03:14
Case
So, yeah, so, as you were saying, this is, overall, it's a quick episode. I think it's about 35 minutes. So obviously it'll be longer with our conversation. But, like that, by its very nature, it's gonna be a pretty tight episode. Overall, it is pretty good audio quality. Jeff always has great audio quality. And because I'm recording by myself, even though it's not, like, my better setup that I'm in currently, it still sounds okay. Like, I'm still getting levels down and stuff like that. But, like, yeah, it's way better in that regard. And it sounds different than the way I sound, but it isn't necessarily bad. I mean, it certainly doesn't sound as good. But, you know, if this was just the show, you'd be like, okay, this is the show.

03:58
Sam
Right?

04:00
Case
And like I said, I think we're both coming at this liking the movie a lot, just having, like, very clear objections to the structure of the movie. But the style of the movie is so good that we can't help but love it and just want it to be, you know, just, like, a little bit better. Cause it's so close to being, like, great. Skirting the edge of that. And it is, as a result, like, just kind of average at best. It's not good. I say that a bunch of times. It's not good. It's fun, and it could have been good, but I think that if it crossed the line into good, it actually would have been great because of all the cool styles and stuff.

04:37
Sam
We can see that.

04:38
Case
Yeah. Anyway, so let's get into the episode. Like I said, it's pretty positive, and it's pretty quick, and we'll see you guys on the other side.

04:48
Geoff
Welcome to certain point of views, another past podcast. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com dot.

05:00
Case
Thanks for tuning in to another past podcast. I'm case Aiken, and today I'm joined by Geoff Moonen.

05:06
Geoff
Hello, everybody. It's great to be back.

05:09
Case
So today we're going to be talking about Tron Legacy.

05:12
Geoff
Yeah.

05:13
Case
Yeah. Like, this is a movie that I'm looking forward to talking about, mainly because it's one that I really like it. Like, I liked it a lot when I saw it in theaters, but especially going over it more recently, it's not a good movie. It's a fun movie, but it's not a good movie.

05:31
Geoff
And it's actually a movie that has a lot of really interesting ideas, and it could actually be a very artistic movie, I feel. But again, there's certain things holding it back and certain big holes that it never quite surmounted.

05:45
Case
Yeah, I mean, you know, like, hell, let's talk about the soundtrack for a second. Like, talk about a thing that has escaped the cultural legacy of the movie. Like that. That music by Daft Punk is amazing.

05:59
Geoff
Yes, it is. I think it's one of the things that if it weren't for that soundtrack, we really wouldn't be talking about this movie at all.

06:08
Case
No, not really at all.

06:09
Geoff
Well, because again, it's Tron Legacy. I actually have not watched the original Tron since I was a kid, and I intentionally did not watch the original getting ready the first time I watched it, getting ready for rewatching it, to prepare for this podcast, I wanted Tron Legacy to be its own thing in my head. But I know that the original Tron, much like Tron Legacy, its aesthetics, its presentation, its technology, is very much a part of its lifeblood, part of the. Part of its DNA, what it is. And so to have something like Daft Punk, which was, you know, Neotron before they made this Neotron movie, have it be that same piece of its DNA is. Is essential. Like, if they didn't put that there, people would probably go, why the hell didn't they get Daft Punk?

06:57
Case
Pretty much, yeah.

06:59
Geoff
So it's. Yes. Step one. I don't think we need to change any of that.

07:03
Sam
No.

07:04
Case
Oh, no.

07:04
Case
Oh, no. The music's amazing. I wish more movies used that exact score. It's just so good.

07:11
Geoff
Yeah. And it's very funny because not only is Daft Punk's music very suitable for the setting for the film, for everything else, Daft Punk's own aesthetics are known, notable, and very present throughout the film, while still matching up with Tron.

07:31
Case
Oh, yeah. This is one of the few movies where they can just show up in their in character Personas and fit perfectly. Like, there's no question. It's like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.

07:39
Geoff
Yeah. If you'd never heard Daft Punk or seen Daft Punk before the film, there'd be no obvious, oh, that's clearly some weird cameo. No, those are just the dj's in that club. And for everybody else, it's like, well, it's staff punk, and they fit in perfectly. Fantastic.

07:55
Case
It's the best choice in this movie.

07:57
Geoff
Yes.

07:58
Case
That's easily the strongest point. Next strongest point, I'd say the aesthetics. I think the look of it's great. It's funny going back. I mean, I did sort of review the original Tron and wanted to compare some of those points. There's some stuff about this movie that could have learned a lesson from the previous one, but the raw look of it all is really cool. I think it gets a little boring after a while. There's too much of this Samey black with neon color details, which I would have liked something to break it up a little bit more. But still, it's really striking when you first see it. And the only real problem I have with it is that you spend a two hour movie in that world, and I would have liked it, like, a little more variation.

08:46
Geoff
Yeah, it definitely feels as though you spent several hours running around the insides of a g four era apple macintosh.

08:53
Case
And, yeah, it looked like Vectrex graphics.

08:56
Geoff
Yeah, a little bit. And I feel there was one point where I realized that almost, it got a little more monochromatic with stark contrast from, you know, good guy, bad guy colors. And it made me realize that they didn't commit far enough either way. Like, if they'd gone very deliberately monochromatic with color elements on top of it, that would have been striking and cool and would have been great for, you know, for visual effects. But if barring that, yeah, I feel there could have been a little more variation. There could have been a little more because, I mean, they have a great borderline of good guy colors, bad guy colors, et cetera, but there's no beyond that. And if we're creating the idea of a digital world beyond the analog, you need to have more signs of life.

09:41
Case
Yeah, there's some stuff that I kind of wish that they doubled down on, which they weirdly didn't like some of the uses of color, especially for humans in the world of it, yes. But let's move on to other things that we either liked or didn't before we get into our pitches. Casting, I thought, was actually pretty good. There's no one who I really thought was miscast in this movie. The worst, I would say, is they were given not really deep roles. Like, both Sam and Cora's characters are both, like, kind of. Kind of one note the entire time.

10:17
Geoff
And, yeah, that is absolutely one of my largest complaints about the film, that they do this amazing job of setting up Sam in the first 20 minutes and then he could have been anybody, sort of.

10:31
Case
I've got some notes about that.

10:32
Geoff
I mean, or at least they did. They treated him better in those 20 minutes than they did in any other part of the film. Let's at least. I. I can at least stand very firmly with that.

10:41
Case
Oh, yeah, that. That's 100% true.

10:43
Geoff
But you're right, not. Neither one of them got. They weren't given anything. There was nothing to it. Honestly. One of the things that really gets me about the film is, and again, I did not rewatch the original tron. So it may be retreading old ground or anything, but there's a distinct. It's actually a very good philosophy piece on ideas of transhumanism as well as notions of free market and ownership. One of the reasons I feel that Sam was treated very well in the first 20 minutes and then ultimately left to be generic white protagonist is there's this wonderful idea brought up in terms of information belonging to whom and who and what and whom is beholden to who and to then enter into a digital world where there can be evolution or the notions of playing God.

11:41
Geoff
The idea that whenever humans try to control the means of production, of growth, of something on their own level, we inevitably forget details of the code. The idea of Kevin creating clue before he realized that you can't control or create the perfect system, the idea of perfection. All of these are. They kind of. They almost made an outline and hit, like, the first bullet points for each of these ideas and then called it a day. And there's a lot more you can explore with it. You don't even need to spend a lot of time explaining it or doing long diatribes or dialogues about it. But they. They cherry picked a little too much. You still can have a great deal of action.

12:31
Geoff
You can still have a great deal of war, of fighting, of nods back to the games without necessarily letting it be just action and the moments when they do it are so nice and are so disappointing because they are few and far between, which also goes into one of my other big. I hate, like, I don't have a full on pitch, unfortunately. I'm not sure exactly where and what. And I want to. I would love to flesh this out with you because it's a fact of. Also, it's a movie called Tron. Where is the guy?

13:08
Case
That's a valid point. I mean, I think that's why they called it Tron legacy. Being like, this is the legacy of Tron.

13:13
Geoff
No, this is the legacy of Flynn.

13:15
Case
Right. Yeah.

13:16
Geoff
And the notion of. Well, one of the big things that I would re pitch and redo is when Sam first enters the world, I would not have him immediately captured. One of the ways to explore this idea of. Notion of control, of ownership of everything else is to have him experience the world a little more. And not just immediately. Games, games. You know, ten minutes of, like, seeing program. Seeing people having that fish out of water moment before he's caught by the authorities. You can then put in so much of the last 20 years of the development. You can hear whispers of the isos if you even want that. You can have the ideas of the whispers of users because there hasn't been a user active within the mainframe for, again, for 20 years.

14:15
Geoff
Well, yeah, about 20 years, because that's when Kevin went into seclusion.

14:18
Case
Right.

14:19
Geoff
So they missed a huge opportunity in developing the world and creating questions to answer in that rather than just throwing it in. Because you can then build up either the legend of Tron or the terror of Rinzler. And Rinzler could have been a far more interesting dragon, a far more interesting personality within it all. And you could have conflict, whether spoken or unspoken, within it all because essentially they kind of cribbed Darth Vader.

14:49
Case
Yeah. Except, like, Darth Vader wouldn't be fighting in, like, some sort of slave pit like that. That was the weird part. Like, he just was, like, the other guy who was rising to the top in the tournament.

15:00
Geoff
Yeah. There was really no great setup on that. They're just like, oh, man, everyone loves this Marcus Aurelius guy that purrs every time the camera's on him.

15:09
Case
Yeah.

15:10
Geoff
And again, I know why he does and everything else, but there's. And I'm making that sort of payoff. Like, it's. It's all very nice ideas that don't go far.

15:23
Case
Yeah. Like, I think this movie spent too much time thinking about potential sequels that it didn't really spend enough time in this movie. And that's why two of my big problems are these, like, very, like, baity kind of elements that happen once at the beginning and one later on.

15:39
Geoff
Absolutely. If you make it a self contained statement, even one that doesn't necessarily answer its own questions, but at least brings characters to their own conclusions, differing characters to different conclusions on these different ideas that could be wonderful and great and even still be Disney friendly. Which you do have to keep in mind with this.

16:02
Case
Well, it's a pretty violent movie, considering how many people get ripped apart. They're just machines, or rather, programs.

16:09
Case
They're construct, they're de resed.

16:11
Geoff
Right. Yeah. So long as there's not blood, it's not violence, is it? Which is actually an interesting thing to wonder about in a film like this. When you look at the idea of the isos, although I suppose arguing about the next generation of humanity or possible evolutions or moving away from that which we once relied on, it's a little. It's a little. I don't know, a proletarian for Disney. Not sure.

16:43
Case
I just, like you said, I wish they would have gone deeper.

16:46
Geoff
Yes. And I think that's why the both of us, even before we started recording, when were talking about this, we agreed that it's an enjoyable movie. It's a good movie, but it's not a well made movie.

16:57
Case
Yeah.

16:58
Case
You know, I walked away from it initially saying, it's a good movie. I liked it. I see why people wouldn't. The more I look at it, the more I'm like, no, you know what? I don't actually think it is a good movie. I think it's a fun movie. And that I really had a great time with it. But good, I think, is a little bit of a stretch. And it's mostly due to just some really glaring structural flaws and ultimately some things that are kind of boring the second time you look at it.

17:26
Geoff
Agreed. Actually, now that I think about it, I think something that would have made a very compelling thread if they'd gotten to it a little earlier and pushed it a little harder, is. I mean, if the original Tron, as I remember it, was very much about the notion of control and ownership. Tron, legacy is much more about, well, legacy, honestly, but in terms of the consequences of the things you create. And like I said before, Kevin creating clue, you will create the perfect system. And that being the notion of perfection versus greatness and organic versus the quantifiable and the realization or the. The ceiling of you will never reach a quantifiable perfection in a living, breathing world.

18:13
Geoff
And that is something that could be shown in sort of the dregs of the mainframe if Sam were to find himself there before being taken to the games. If he's taken there at all.

18:22
Case
Yeah.

18:24
Geoff
Because they clearly still use those bikes. They still use that, those same ideas outside of the games. And so you can still have great nods to. Fantastic nods to Tron. And, I mean, Tron Legacy does a wonderful job of subtly putting all of its, like, callback lines and everything else. And I know which things were callbacks, but you didn't have to. They didn't spend too much time, like, elbowing in the ribs about it, but they still did plenty of it. So they actually, you know what? I don't think they needed the games.

18:56
Case
You know, I was gonna say that, like, the way you're describing it, that movie shouldn't have had the games.

19:01
Geoff
Yeah. It doesn't need it. Like.

19:04
Case
But you have to acknowledge that if they were gonna make a Tron movie that didn't have the games, studio execs would have been like, what are you doing?

19:10
Geoff
This is true, but it's something worth arguing for. And you can have elements and pieces of the games. You can show the legacy of the games, whether it's.

19:21
Case
Yeah.

19:21
Geoff
Whether it's fighting with the discs, whether it's the bikes and the wake that they do in like a, you know, if. When Sam gets captured and brought before clue, instead of it just being a, I'm here. I'm captured, Rinsler, you're my dad. No, you're not. It being a notion of he ends up in the mainframe. He's hearing all these whispers. He sees all these things. He has no idea what's going on. He's in a computer. What the hell? And then whether the authorities use those bikes, they use that wake. That's how they trap people. That's how they de res dregs. That's how they do any of that. It's still elements of the games, and it was still dangerous in the games, but now it is outside of the arena, and it has that great, that still element of danger.

20:03
Geoff
And it shows when these things grow outside of their original parameters, which programs, to our mind, to, by. By nature, by design, have parameters, but in Tron, they can grow outside of them.

20:17
Case
Yeah. So here's my thing. The first Tron movie is this big fantasy world. And it's like beat for beat, like a classic fantasy movie where you go into this other world that has different rules. And it's like, isn't that a fan? Like dragons, they're not real in this. It's like video games. They're not serious. But it has a couple beats that kind of make it different from just any other movie, namely that Kevin Flynn made those games and influenced this reality and that they are a thing that he plays with in his real world. So there's all these stakes involved both in that it's something he created, it's a tool he uses to try to do things, and it's a. An element that he is embracing in his personal, in his real world, the espionage subplot that's going on in the real world.

21:15
Case
So in this movie, they have none of that. It's even more of a generic fantasy. Sam is the protagonist of this movie, whereas Flynn is not really the protagonist of the first movie. Tron is the protagonist of the film, first movie. And Flynn is more just the thing that tips the scales, allowing the hero to win, which I feel is a very eighties style fantasy movie, whereas Sam Flynn just coming into this other world and being the chosen one hero is very much so.

21:46
Geoff
The two thousands idea. Yeah.

21:48
Case
A much more simplified kind of like, oh, no, I've got to be the big damn hero. You can't be the big damn hero. I can't help a person be the hero. I am the hero.

21:56
Geoff
Right. Or it would be very interesting for him to help his father. And it's almost he. He's the deuteragonist. To help the old deuteragonist.

22:03
Case
Correct.

22:04
Case
That would be one way to take it. So, like when I was reading up on this movie, they kept talking about how they didn't want it to be too much like the Matrix. And I think that this movie came out at like exactly the wrong time for this movie to come out because it was right before the smartphone revolution. Like smartphones had become a thing. They were becoming popular, they were becoming big.

22:25
Geoff
Yes.

22:25
Case
But the production cycle on this movie had been underway, leading into it being made as smartphones were quietly dominating the world. So computing totally changed between the movie being written and the movie being released.

22:41
Geoff
Yeah. And really all they were able to reference in it was that one little bit about Wifi.

22:45
Case
Right. All of these were things that were coming out, but it just wasn't there yet. The movie was just the last hurrah of the nineties into mid two thousands model of computing that truly died. Once the iPhone android and everything became the thing.

23:06
Geoff
It was the last of the hackers era, really.

23:08
Case
Right. Yeah. Right. Down to Flynn. Or rather Sam Flynn being a hacker.

23:15
Geoff
Exactly.

23:16
Case
It also has this weird element of, he's just this rebel. And the lesson he learns is like, no, I shouldn't be a rebel. I should work within the system at the end. And I think that's sort of also not quite the right lesson, or at least not the right setup for him.

23:31
Geoff
Agreed.

23:32
Case
So I kind of feel that, all right, they wanted to have the system, like the Tron world be cut off from the modern world. They didn't want it to look like modern video games. They didn't want it to look like. Like a world influenced by the Internet. They wanted the original Tron universe, but grown in isolation. And so here's my thought. What if. So Kevin Flynn's gone missing. I probably wouldn't make it quite so long a time, but sure, Kevin Flynn has gone missing.

24:03
Geoff
It keeps it in real time, is the thing.

24:05
Case
Well, but I'm saying, like, the time. I'm saying we still set it in the modern day, in real time.

24:12
Geoff
But he disappeared in, like, 95, right?

24:14
Case
Yeah. Not quite as big of a jump. He, at that point, was head of income. His son is left to be this rich kid, the biggest shareholder or whatever. But instead of him being this rebel who goes around trying to fight for the common man.

24:31
Case
Yeah.

24:33
Case
Instead, what if he's like Bruce Wayne without the reality of Batman, without the redemption of Batman? It's just Bruce Wayne being this playboy. And let's say he's, like, an esports champion because he has no ties to video games in this movie, he barely has ties to computers, really. He's a hacker. But that doesn't play a part in the movie later. So really, he should just be, if he was like his dad, just really good at video games. But it's modern video games. And then I would have him actually sitting on the board. I would have him sitting in Cillian Murphy's seat. And either he's the one who lets it out, but he's sitting there being like, no, it's cool. I figured it out. It's fine. It'll be fine. Or accident. And here's my thought about that. One, the world of the system.

25:27
Case
Flynn just builds a separate computer and sets it off behind his arcade as his way of preserving this system separately from the rest of income.

25:37
Geoff
Okay. Yeah.

25:38
Case
One, how would he really do that, considering the computers he had at his disposal? And two, I feel like it can better than that. So my thought is, what if it.

25:50
Case
Was his pet project?

25:51
Case
He did try to hide it from everyone. But it was inside a virtual machine. Inside the actual income servers. So it's like an emulator that at first people who went into his files just thought it was an emulator of his old arcade game. But it's actually an emulator of the original Tron system.

26:08
Geoff
It truly is what's within Flynn's arcade.

26:11
AD
Right.

26:12
Case
The system in this movie is not the original system from the original movie. It's still a new one.

26:18
Geoff
Right?

26:18
Case
So what if the system being maintained was just a preserved emulation or preserved by emulation world of the Tron world from the first movie. And it's been sitting there inside this virtual machine, cut off from everything because it's existing inside a virtual machine. So they can't access the Internet. They can't do all these things. And what if people are trying to break out the same way? In the first movie Flynn is trying to use the metaphor of video games to break in. Yeah, if in this movie things are trying to get out. And what if in doing so, that leaks data onto the Internet about the new OS update? And like Sam looking into it because people blame him, maybe, right? Maybe he's blamed for it. Cause he's the fuck up. And he's the one who has like a spin.

27:07
Case
He's like, what really happened? He goes and looks, he finds out it's actually like this like backlog of files that he thought, or from his dad that everyone thought was just like old video game stuff that no one cares about anymore. He's like, wait. That's taken up way more resources than it should be. And as he's looking into it, that's when he gets zapped and brought into the system.

27:28
Geoff
Well, there could even be within that he starts receiving messages from it.

27:32
Case
Yes.

27:32
Geoff
That idea of getting the page, whether it's. You can even have it. Whether he's been having conversations with something for a while. Or that this is the first conversation that occurs one way or the other. And frankly, I prefer the latter. Where it's something reaches out to him within it. Whether he thinks it's some strange bot or some weird little program that his father made. But it seems to have information or.

27:55
Case
Know about saying yeah, and sounds like his dad. And that would be clue right there.

28:00
Geoff
Exactly. It would still be clue. Sending out the page, as it were.

28:04
Case
Yes. Which is ultimately what happened in the movie. But in the movie, it's much clunkier. It's just, I got a page from your dad.

28:13
Geoff
Go to the arcade.

28:14
Case
Why a page? Why any of these things now? So let's say he's this esports champion. So he really likes video games, but it's modern style video games. And then he goes into this world of older school video games. The thing they set up but they don't really follow through on, is the ramifications of a world that was predicated on this master computer controlling everything and punishing people with video games. What if it had truly descended into this anarchy and clue became this dictator, but he really did lead up the people. It wasn't through power or anything. And the games have become this even greater dystopian control mechanism, like way more of a crazy bread and circus games kind of thing, where it's now almost their purpose for life because they're not connected to the Internet, no one's using them.

29:05
Case
They're not being used as computers, which was the idea. Like it was programs as metaphors. Like people were like a metaphorical interpretation of programs in the original.

29:16
Geoff
Correct. Where and then users came in and were some other thing entirely and they haven't seen a user in 20 years. Or in the case of what we're talking about, maybe ten or 15.

29:28
Case
Right. And so what we find is that this kind of like, reckless but apathetic individual who just wants to have a good time is now stuck in this world and forced to see the damage that being apathetic could cost. People like, to not take responsibility that his dad sitting back and being stuck and not being able to influence it because he doesn't think it's right. He sees that his dad has a flawed view because now this world has become so much worse. Yes, like maybe his dad has now realized all the flaws, same way he does in the movie, but that he didn't act soon enough.

30:08
Case
Like he freed everyone but didn't give them a system to exist in, like a political system, didn't give them the structure that they needed to actually thrive and didn't give them a purpose because now they're cut off from the rest of the world.

30:21
Geoff
Yes.

30:22
Case
And then the actual threat of clue getting free isn't getting just into the real world, which is kind of stupid. You're like, what is that actually going to do? But what if it's just clue getting out into the Internet?

30:34
Geoff
True.

30:35
Case
And then what if maybe if you want to tease another movie that the leak of the OS before puts it out there, that maybe clue might be self replicating in other machines.

30:48
Geoff
True. Although.

30:49
Case
And that's the stinger for the end.

30:51
Geoff
No, absolutely. I think the real threat of clue getting out one way or the other is the fact that it's established that clue is a limited construction who sees himself as a complete and multifaceted being. He has singular purpose and singular drive, which is powerful and is effective, but is ultimately self destroying and self defeating, which is also as easily demonstrated in the dystopian anarchy that we are, that you have pitched and that we're discussing right now. And that's one facet that I would not want to get away from one way or the other.

31:30
Geoff
And I think that would be a great thing to explore with Sam being part of the board of directors or being very much in Cillian Murphy's seat in terms of thinking that you can create perfection or like, getting that high score, getting that sort of thing, and realizing the limitations of setting perfection by your own standards. No singular being, no singular vision creates perfection, which is one of the cool things about the isos that they just could not connect with. The idea that no human vision can see where the new ideas come from or where they. Or what they will be, what they can become.

32:08
Case
Right.

32:09
Geoff
And even if you had isos as a very. Not like a suddenly the digital Jews showed up, it would be like the isos were something that was sparking up within this petri dish of. You put it very well, bread and circus.

32:27
Case
Yeah. Especially if the isos were the things that were in the games, they could just as easily all be still alive and be exclusively being tortured and destroyed for the entertainment of the larger system. Like, that's the only thing keeping it together.

32:42
Geoff
Yeah.

32:42
Case
And that is that everyone gets to look at these other creatures being destroyed.

32:45
Geoff
And that's like, that was the last straw for Flynn in both cases, both in going into seclusion and when Sam comes in to pull him out.

32:54
Case
Yeah.

32:55
Geoff
The fact that apathy gets you nowhere and that there is that we are not the arbiters and creators, but we are the custodians of change. And the shepherds.

33:07
Case
Yeah.

33:08
Geoff
And. Yeah. The idea of the system getting out and whether that's clue self replicating or whether that's something reaching out one way or the other, that. To embrace those changes, and it shakes. It shakes apathy for both flynns.

33:23
Case
Yeah. And then throw in some stuff with, like, video games where you can, like, reference older school video games versus more modern ones. Of course, we've identified that the fantasy world that they're set in is a little too to undeveloped. I would love it if clue was this red figure that everything that he controlled was red, but everyone else had much more colors. To them, like right now, it's very much, there's blue and there's red and that's it.

33:52
Geoff
Yes.

33:52
Case
There's a few greens, there's a few other colors hidden in there, but it's not very consistent. I would love the idea of a multifaceted world. That clue is constantly just like a virus reaching out to.

34:07
Geoff
Yes, and because they kept the color scheme very much from the original tron. But that also furthers the idea that there's been no change. There's been change, but there's really been no change in the last 20 years.

34:20
Case
Right.

34:21
Geoff
Having that multifaceted thing, that simple design choice, gives a great tell to just how far off the rails this is all gone.

34:30
Case
Yeah. It would have been nice if they reflected on that. How like Flynn thought he overthrew a dictatorship and just created a new one.

34:39
Geoff
Yeah.

34:39
Case
By mistake.

34:40
Geoff
Well, it's also that idea of, you know what, especially for computer programmers and for coders. The idea that you can't perfectly code something from the get go. You could even know what you're supposed to do, how it's all supposed to function. You're still going to have to patch things, you're still going to have to edit things. The idea that Windows 95 ran for so long and went on for so long and it had so many patches, so many switches, so many changes, and so many programs that worked on that platform had coding and specific procedures put into them so that they would work specifically with all of the strange ways that the platform had evolved and the programs had evolved with it, that when you try to put these things onto newer systems, it's why they don't work.

35:27
Case
Yeah, that's especially true with Windows XP later on. Yeah, that ran for so long because there was like an aborted Windows version that was supposed to come out like three years after it, but didn't. And so it was like five years before Vista. And by that point, like, way too many people were hanging on to XP.

35:44
Geoff
Yeah. And everything worked for XP. And so that's already there in the world of computing, in the world of gaming. And it's right there. It's ripe for the picking and it's very easily understood. You don't need to explain much, you just need to show it. Showing that in all of the strange and myriad ways that this supposedly perfect world, this mainframe, this emulated machine, has fallen apart despite all the best laid plans and yet stays contained and the ramifications of seemingly great ideas and the fact that you can't hold them in forever.

36:21
Case
Yeah, I mean, this movie has so much style over substance. I would just like a little more substance to back it up. Like, it can still be a generic fantasy movie, but, like, think about the implications of what has happened in this movie and from the previous one. You know, like I said, colors, looks. Oh, you know what? We didn't talk about CGI.

36:40
Geoff
Jeff Bridges.

36:41
Case
I was fine with them for clue. What I would have liked is if they did some subtle CGI stuff to the other programs. Like, if everyone who was an artificial being had just a little bit of uncanny valley going on, I would have lived with that world a lot better. So if the only people who had.

36:57
Geoff
Like, that would have been really cool.

36:58
Case
Yeah.

36:58
Case
I mean, it would have been expensive, but I'm not talking about, like, full on, like, de aging like Jeff Bridges, but, like, a little bit. Just, like, soften their features a little bit so that when you look at actual Jeff Bridges and actual Sam, what is it, Garrett Hedlund? That they look real and everyone else looks a little fake.

37:19
Geoff
Yeah. You almost have, like, kind of an old low resolution version in a high def world.

37:24
Case
Yeah, something like that, which further showcases.

37:26
Geoff
The digital versus the analog, where you can create something for an older resolution. But things will continue to get better, and the things created for that time need to either evolve or if they can't, they're going to start to show their age differently. Where humans develop lines, programs blur.

37:43
Case
Right. Actually, that would have been a good way to set up how complex the isos are if they also were not, like, digitally enhanced that way. So it's just the more mainstream programs.

37:57
Geoff
And those are ways that you don't necessarily, you don't need to explain it. You don't need to spend time on it. You just need to show it. And it still follows Tron's excellent, truly excellent sense of style, or at least adherence to. And telling even more. And showing an even deeper world. Yeah, they didn't. We need to show a more, for lack of a better term, depraved world, basically.

38:22
Case
Yeah. All right, man. Like I said, this movie's kind of a broad movie, and I think the changes we've had, we've talked about are really good and would make this a lot better. It really wouldn't take much to push it into the realm of being a really good movie or even great.

38:36
Geoff
Agreed.

38:37
Case
But as it is, it's just, it's too simple, it's too basic, and it came out at the wrong time.

38:42
Geoff
Yes, it did have the misfortune of coming out at the wrong time, as well as just it told us a lot of really good ideas and then did nothing with them.

38:51
Case
Yeah. All right, dude, it's been great talking to you. Likewise, everyone listening. Thanks for tuning in. Next time we're going to talk about Highlander two. And until then, stay scruffy, my nerf herders.

39:09
Geoff
Thanks for listening to certain point of view's another pass podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com.

39:41
AD
Video games are a unique medium.

39:43
Geoff
They can tell stories, immerse us in strange, fantastic worlds, blur the very boundaries of our reality.

39:51
Case
But at the end of the day.

39:52
AD
Video games are fun. Whatever fun is to you.

39:55
Geoff
I'm Jeff Moonan.

39:56
AD
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39:57
Geoff
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40:03
AD
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40:07
Geoff
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40:12
AD
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40:17
Geoff
Get your podcasts and happy gaming.

40:20
Case
And we're back. All right, so, Sam, we've got two areas that we kind of are going to want to talk about, which is your thoughts on the movie and your thoughts on the episode. Which do you want to tackle first?

40:32
Sam
I'm going to talk about the movie first. Okay, so I will say that I did see this movie in theaters, and I did feel that there were times that it really lagged for me. Like, I thought it was pretty boring. I rewatched, and I still think that there's, like, definite structure and pacing issues in this film. But overall, it really is pretty stylistic. I think some. Some of this stuff looks a little more dated now just because we can do more. Right? But it's not, like, anywhere near as bad as some of the other CGI heavy movies that we have even watched for previous episodes.

41:16
Case
Totally. You know, I think that's the strength of, like, a movie like this. It's the same thing that is going on with, like, reboot, for example, where. Which is. It's funny that this is coming out right on the tails of us doing the reboot episode, but, you know, like, you can lean into the CGI ness by virtue of it being literally set in a CGI environment. That's why I say in the episode that, like, clue looking off as a Jeff Bridges impersonation is fine.

41:44
Case
I almost wish that more of it looked a little off just to make the whole world kind of feel just a little off in that way that CGI faces kind of look and then have the human characters just be human and have the isos also be human because they're supposed to be, effectively, that they're complex, analogous creatures as opposed to the very digital, finite entities that exist inside the grid.

42:12
Sam
Yeah.

42:13
Case
So it. You know, it. It's the kind of movie that can get away with having worse CGI and have it just look like it's on purpose.

42:21
Sam
Yeah. And I. But the look overall still. I mean, this was shot, you know, this was put out 2010. It still looks pretty cool, like, even now, you know, like, so I'm gonna give points for that. I think, like, in terms of just, like, the aesthetics, it's a really fun thing to look at. You know, the movie itself is. I think the episode. We can touch on the episode, Jeff, and you pinpoint a lot of the issues, and I agree with pretty much 100% of them. Like, this. Like, I was actually telling you before we started recording that I feel like I don't really have a lot to add because I feel like there are so many ways that they could have gone with the storyline.

43:07
Sam
And I specifically love the fact that you said that you wished that he had been more involved with computers. Like, it's not just, like, oh, my God, my dad, blah. But, like, you know, like, it just. Sam is not quite a full character. He's just kind of a vehicle to kind of, like, bring you to the world. Like, there's nothing. A lot of the characters in this film are not fleshed out, and especially the main characters. And that is big problem, I think, because it makes everyone less interesting. It makes them maybe less interesting. You know, like, you're in a 2d world, but, like, your characters still need to be three d. And I think that's, like, a big issue that this film has, like, on the surface level. Like, just, like, plugging in. Like, just, like. Yes.

44:00
Sam
And now they're gonna save the day, and, oh, and we're gonna go to a bar, and there's gonna be a cool guy with a cane that's gonna be lit up. Of course. Of course. We're gonna go meet, like, a Lando esque character here. You know, like, it's. There's just, like, beats that we're very used to. And I think you actually pointed that out. It was like, a very. What did you say? It was like a simple fairy tale or fantasy structure. Right?

44:27
Case
Like.

44:30
Case
Yeah.

44:31
Case
And especially with the. Like, the problem with Sam is that he is just there to be an audience surrogate. Like, he's cool enough that you can envision yourself being like, I could be that cool. But there's nothing, like, really distinct about the way he's cool. Unlike Flynn in the first movie, where he was a really good video game programmer and very good at video games, because he made the video games that they use in the world of Tron, there. There's nothing like that. Like, his hacking skills that he has at the beginning of the movie. Never play a part in the actual movie that happens, which is insane. Like, that seems like the most basic skill.

45:09
Sam
Kind of finds a portal. He just, like, moves something and walks into a door. Like, instead of, like, logging in any way or virtually, like, kind of finding himself in it. Like, yeah, it is. It's really. And he never. There's never a moment, like, when he is on the grid where he has to, like, get to a computer, open a door, you know? Like, there's not even. Like, he could have at least been a little more r, right? Like, just plug in, type something in. Yeah, but there's never really. He doesn't use those skills. Like, so we're told he has them, but we're not shown that he has those skills.

45:52
Case
It's not surprising when he first gets there that he doesn't know how to use it. But once he meets his dad, you would think he should figure out how to maybe take someone's disc and then reprogram them and do all the cool stuff that Jeff Bridges is able to do with the power of the world and maybe even better at it because he's a hacker from the modern times, as opposed to Jeff Bridges 20 years out of date at that point level of computer literacy. Admittedly, the grid is a time capsule that has evolved in separate directions from the way technology has worked in this setting.

46:32
Case
But still, it would be nice or, like I say, in the episode, or have him be an esports champion or literally anything that is tied into the world that they're in so that it helps explain why he's particularly good in this environment, which, again, just seems like table stakes. Like, it's amazing that this movie doesn't go there. So you said you saw this in theaters. I also saw this in theaters. I saw it with a friend of the show and one of my best friends, Maddie Ryan Limerick. So, yeah, amazing. A movie that looks so much like a Power Rangers movie, and the two of us went to go see it together.

47:10
Sam
That is shocking. Absolutely shocking. Let you him know, but, okay, so.

47:16
Case
I'm a video game nerd, especially when I was, like, younger. Like, I'm more of a retro game kind of person, but I. But I always keep my ear to the ground in terms of video game and tech news, and I'm just, like, generally, like, a tech nerd as well. And I was a big fan of the original Tron for reasons that should be pretty obvious. Like, it seems like it was a movie kind of made for me specifically, and I was really excited to see it. What was your association with the Tron franchise before seen this in theaters, so.

47:45
Sam
This is going to be a shock to no one. My mom really liked Juwan, so I, you know, so I did enjoy the first movie. It was a little dry for me as a kid, to be honest with you. Like, I wasn't quite as excited about it as I was some of, like, the other movies my mom introduced me to. I mean, but, like, you know, I think there's, like, a thing about, like, destruction of, like, you know, I was more enthused about, like, you know, King Kongs and Godzillas and things like that, especially as a kid where, you know, the. The idea of liberating a computer system, I don't know, it just was not as interesting, but to me, but my parents, like, my mom has always been a big, you know, science fiction nerd, big monster nerd, things like that.

48:39
Sam
So all of her choices kind of, you know, kind of informed me as a child. And so when they had re like, you know, it was like, oh, we're gonna. We're gonna do this. We're gonna do tron movie. I was like, you know, I wasn't, like, a huge fan of the original. I liked it. I liked it. I go see it, and I remember that the trailer looked cool. Like, I remember it looked cool. And so, like, and it looked sleek. It looks sleek. It looked modern. It looked cool, and it was just like, yeah, like, let's. Let's. Let's go see that. That would be fun.

49:18
Case
That makes sense.

49:19
Sam
That was kind of my thoughts. Yeah.

49:21
Case
Yeah.

49:21
Case
This movie is so stylish. Like, the marketing for it was so easy because everything looked just awesome.

49:27
Sam
Yeah.

49:28
Case
Sounded awesome. Like, they had the daft punk score to work with.

49:31
Sam
I love daft punk, too. Like, I definitely still like them now, but I was very into them, like, then, and they were the perfect, which you guys said in the episode. So I didn't feel like I needed to bring it up. But they were the perfect choice.

49:45
Case
Yes. Yeah. Everything in terms of the look and sound of this movie, including. And both the casting choices and also going with Daft Punk to do your score and to do this big, very symphonic score that they do, as opposed to it being entirely electronic, they know where to be. Be more modern and to be more classic in the various ways. It's really good, and it has lived on well past this movie in a way that nothing else from this movie has. I referenced this in the episode, and it continues to be true. Like, I will randomly catch numbers in various commercials and things like that. And then I swear to God, Taylor Swift is obsessed with this album because in 1989, there's multiple tracks that have synth riffs that, like, sound, like, coming directly from this album.

50:38
Sam
Yeah. If it's not her, it's Jack Antonov for sure. Because I think you're right. I think absolutely you're right that there are. There might. I mean, we'd have to look it up, and I don't want to say there is, but, like, according to us, we believe that there may have been sampling or inspiration from it. I just.

51:01
Case
Right. I don't. I don't need it to actually be true. I would just be happier if it was true.

51:05
Sam
Yeah.

51:05
Case
It doesn't. Like, I'm not accusing her in any way of being a ripping.

51:09
Sam
No, no. It's a good tribute.

51:11
Case
If it's a tribute or it's. It's just, you know. You know, this wonderful, like, synchronicity that is, like, just beautiful. It's kismet here. Either way is totally fine. I just would find it even more enjoyable if it's just like, all right, she's a fucking nerd, too. That's all.

51:31
Sam
She's probably a music nerd. I feel like, you know, that's probably a thing that she nerds out about, for sure.

51:37
Case
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Man, I wanted so bad to buy, like, there were, like, cosplay companies that would do, like, really, like, good quality jackets.

51:48
Sam
I remember that. Oh, my gosh.

51:51
Case
So wanted some of these. What I really wanted was the Rinsler jacket, but with the tron colors, like. And that I could, like, I never saw and, like, I would have just, like, gone head over heels for.

52:04
Sam
Yeah, there were really cool. So many, like, collaborations, too, and especially in the fashion world with this particular movie. Like, it was crazy.

52:14
Case
Yeah. They were also expensive and impractical and also, like, this movie was coming out when I was, like, going from, like, that brief period of my life where I was skinny back to my natural weight. And so I was, like, very aware that, like, oh, no, I'm not going to look as good as this as I would have, like, two years earlier.

52:36
Sam
And also to spend that much money and not know, you know, and just, yeah, yeah.

52:41
Case
They were like several hundred dollars for, like, a good one. But, yeah, like, the look and style of it was all just so fucking cool. It, like, it really propelled this movie. But then it's just so cookie cutter when you actually get into the story of it. And what's bothersome is that it's worse than the original Tron, which, you know, isn't the most complex movie in the world either. And so that's kind of a frustrating point where they make it so that all of the characters are a little bit blander than in the original. And the original was already pretty simple for the kids. And this one's even simpler for the kids or for the male power fantasy kind of set that also, like, it simple. And that just kind of sucks because the look is so good.

53:28
Case
And like I said, the casting is really good. And when all these elements, if they were just given just a little bit more, like, I'm not even saying that this would be a good movie. I'm saying this movie would have instantly become great because it had all these things pushing it into this awesome area. Like, this is an awful movie in a very real sense. It's awesome and awful at the same time. And the awful isn't, like, egregiously awful, but it is, you know, like I said, very basic. And there is some, like, power fantasy stuff and male, like, male wish fulfillment kind of stuff going on that isn't that complex and is like, Korra is a character that, like, I don't love. Like, I see notes where it's like, she's based on Joan of Arc and I'm like, I don't fucking get that.

54:13
Sam
The haircut, supposedly. I feel. I feel like. I think with this movie because the marketing, the rapping, the. The idea of a legacy, right? Because I think no matter what, like, even if it's been years since the original, the fact that you're creating a sequel always leaves people with a little bit of, like, extra anticipation because it's like, oh, what are they gonna do? How are they gonna tie it together? And then to get the product that was given, which was very beautiful but lacking a lot of substance, I think that ultimately kind of marred a lot of theater goers experiences because I think there is something to hyping things up in your own head before you go to see a film, right?

55:06
Sam
And I think, like, normally looking back, even on, like, stuff like the prequel movies for Star wars and things like that, like, a lot of the backlash to those films and even to this film is that there were a lot of expectations going into this film, right? Like, there, I remember people being like, oh, that looks cool. Oh, my God, it's coming back. Like, I remember friends of mine, like, making sure to, like, if they hadn't watched the original, going to watch the original or doing a rewatch and, like, it just fell flat, you know, so fell flat of their own imagination because it wasn't like it fell flat of, like, the original Tron. It's more like it fell flat of, like, what they had dreamed up this movie was going to be.

56:07
Case
Yeah, I mean, there was a lot of people who had, like, put ideas into what a Tron sequel would look like. And then it actually, like, the promotional artwork is so cool that it was, it looked like it's like, oh, it's even better than what we imagined. Like, so I recently just bought Tron 2.0, which was a game that came out when I was in college for PC, which is like a Tron update kind of thing. And I remember being so excited about like, oh, yeah, they're doing Tron update stuff and they're making it look cool. And then Tron Legacy is cooler looking. Like, it's even, like, the style is so good.

56:39
Case
And you're like, oh, they're really gonna pull this off because that fantasy of being sucked into a video game, which is the same fantasy as being sucked into a novel or into just a fantasy world. Like it's Narnia. Yeah, exactly. But also, you know what it's really similar to is captain in and the game masters, which was a cartoon that ran when were kids about someone being sucked into Nintendo and, like, living adventures where he has the Nes Zapper and he's friends with Mega man and Kid Icarus.

57:06
Sam
It's a great show. I loved that.

57:07
Case
Right? Video games were so inherently fresh and cool when the original Tron came out that of course people are going to conceive of being sucked inside of it. It's literal narrative that already built into it. Even games like Missile Command have a narrative to it because it is about defending the city that you're at, which is supposed to be based on the home, like the home city of the designer of the game from a missile attack from Russia. There's stories in everything. And so the idea that you could insert yourself into it is super there. That's why rpg's exist. Look at mass Effect. It's doing a lot of similar things here, including trapping you inside of it and making your choices matter and stuff like that.

57:55
Sam
Yeah.

57:55
Case
So the idea of Tron being this fantasy setting is exactly what you would imagine people would go to. And then the sequel is just so goddamn basic.

58:10
Sam
Yeah, it's just. It's just like, it's just so. It's almost like painting by numbers kind of like plug in. Like, okay, so we have to make it kind of feels. And I think, like, this is, you know what? This is what really kind of feels like. They were like, okay, we have this ip and we want to reboot it. What do. What do we do with it? And, oh, hi. Reboot. And we want. We want to reboot it. And, well, we're just gonna put these things on the floor. What's the hero's journey? And they basically mapped out a very normal, generic hero's journey, and then basically was like, okay, let's design cool shit around it. And that's basically the art direction took over instead of, like, actual, like a character driven storyline.

59:03
Sam
I don't want to say actual story driven, because art direction is also storytelling, but character driven storyline.

59:09
Case
Oh, my God. I can't believe we didn't reference this in it, but it occurs to me that this is 2010. This is actually right in the wake of the Writers Guild strike, which I don't see any notes about, but would actually line up, especially with a CGI heavy movie like this. I wouldn't be surprised if some phase of pre production, because we're not talking about production being held up. We're talking about pre production being held up, where they probably got started with some of the CGI work that sort of locked them into story beats. Now, I don't know if this movie is quite as restrictive as transformers. What is it? Rise of the fall. Whatever. The second Transformers movie was the one that has the robot that has balls. I don't. Like.

59:56
Case
That's an example of, like, well, we thought this idea might be funny, but we literally weren't allowed to check and make sure it was funny with our writers. This is at least not. There's nothing as offensive as that in.

01:00:09
Sam
The CGI portions of this.

01:00:11
Case
But I do wonder if they just kind of went with a first draft like, this feels like a first pass movie that, you know, I think that is an influencing factor in terms of the strength of this movie. And, like, it does match up timeline wise, I think.

01:00:28
Sam
I think, you know, it's a really good theory, honestly, because it just really does feel like a basic storyboard. Right. You know, kid and dad, like, you know, he looks up to his dad. He thinks his dad's hero dad disappears, jump to the future. He's grown up, visited by an old friend of his dad, informed about some stuff, goes visit a place where his dad used to work. Opens basically not a wardrobe, but kind of pushes something aside, walks in, enters other dimension, finds dad in the world that's created journey, begins to save everything, you know? And so it's very. It's a very basic beginning plot line kind of thing, and then, which is like, you know, these things are basic, you know, tenants of story writing for a reason. They work.

01:01:32
Case
Right. This is a serviceable first draft. If this was a first draft, like, this would be one where I'm like, oh, we have a lot to build on. Like, cool, this is a great start, but it does feel like a start, right?

01:01:43
Sam
And then because the characters are not fleshed out, because they're not created to be more or given. I don't want to say real stakes, because there are stakes in this film, but I feel like we don't understand always. Sam's full, you know, there's no heart to him. There's no, like, emotional hero's journey for him, really. It feels very surface level.

01:02:14
Case
Yeah, well, and also the invasion of earth kind of as a plot, it feels the way that Star Trek movies will default to being like, he's going after Earth because it's like, oh, that's where the audience is from as a way of artificially heightening the stakes. It's like, oh, he's going to invade the real world, which I point out in the episode doesn't really make that much sense. And wouldn't it be way more threatening if it was like, he's going to invade the Internet? Because that's a thing that's a little bit more ominous and terrifying and, like, he has a chance of actually succeeding. Like, what is he gonna do when he comes into the real world? He has no idea what our capabilities are. He has no idea if his machines will work.

01:02:54
Case
He has no idea how anything is going to function and let alone be able to go back for reinforcements or anything like that. The plan makes no goddamn sense. And like I said, he doesn't have scouts to understand, like, what he's going into. Yeah, it's a terrible point.

01:03:13
Sam
So funny, because the Internet would have been much better. Because the truth is, around this time, people are still wary of the Internet like, it's been around. People are on it, but people are still.

01:03:25
Case
Well, people have always been wary of the Internet, like, they're in just in different ways. And so this is a good segue into the. The last thing that I wanted to talk about from the episode, which is my statement that the movie came out at the exact worst time for it to come out based on the trends in technology shifting. Because when it came out, were already starting to fully understand, and I say we not like the early adopters, but the general public had started to understand the potential power of the smartphone app. Like, app culture had started to really rise. The iPhone was huge at this point. Androids were out.

01:04:02
Case
We were rapidly seeing the development of smartphones to be a computing device for people on the go, and tablet computing had started to come out because at this point, the original iPad was out. And so the shift towards more mobile, lightweight computing had really blown up at this point. But this movie doesn't seem to understand that. And the reason it doesn't understand that is that it was most likely written by someone who's not super tech savvy, but more importantly, written, like, three years earlier, when the general public wasn't quite in that, like, state of mind. And so even if you were kind of tech savvy, you wouldn't write a thing in there being like, well, yeah, they're smart device or whatever, because you wouldn't just assume people would be immediately on board with it.

01:04:47
Case
And so I think that the nature of technology, because they're also trying to avoid looking like the Matrix, which uses the real world as its metaphor for its approach to technology. It was trying so hard not to be like the Matrix, and it was trying so hard to lean into, like, technology that people would understand. But the general public became way more aware of the changing landscape of computing by the time this movie actually came out. And if it had just come out three years later, it wouldn't have made those mistakes because it would have. We would have gotten there.

01:05:20
Case
Or if it had come out, like, honestly, three years earlier, it wouldn't have had those issues either, because it would have been a little bit more, like, on the level of where people were at, like, blackberries were a thing, but it wasn't quite as overwhelming.

01:05:31
Sam
Yeah, no, I agree with you on that front, and I think that's kind of a statement on how fast the technology evolved during that period. Because it was.

01:05:43
Case
And especially because of that pivot point. Like, you know, I, like, I'm a joy guy. Like, I have a Samsung fold, for the record. But, like, I'm not gonna deny the fact that when the iPhone came out, it changed the way the general public understood smartphones because previously their conceptions were, oh, it's like those blackberries or the things like blackberries that my dad has for work. Not, you know, even though there's amazing windows phones that were out there or all, like, the Nokia, like, look, I long for a Nokia N 95 to have in my collection. I have a fake Nokia N 86 in my collection that I bought, thinking it was a real one. Found out it was a curf, keeping it real, fake.

01:06:22
Case
And I still present it in my, like, my home office because it's like, look how fucking cool this is. I got a, I got a knockoff in Nokia N 86. So I understand that there were smartphones before, like, the iPhone touchscreen trend became everything.

01:06:36
Sam
Right?

01:06:38
Case
Just for my own pedigree on that one. But I'm saying that the general public wasn't. I wasn't aware of it at the time.

01:06:47
Sam
And I think it also changed. It also changed because there were smartphones and there were a lot of phones that at the time were not necessarily following the touch screen model. They like, what was it, the kick. Right.

01:07:04
Case
Sidekick.

01:07:04
Sam
It was like, yeah, sidekick. Right. And so basically, it was just basically giving you the ability to have a giant keyboard because texting was very big, and that was an incredibly popular phone in terms of the use of stuff.

01:07:22
Case
And that was a full fledged smartphone. Like, that had an app store, it had a perfectly fine web browser, email functionality. It, like all the big ticket things you would check off for a smartphone. It had and arguably had, I think, before the iPhone.

01:07:36
Sam
Yeah. And you can watch little videos on it. Like. Like, it was it. You could use that phone. But the iPhone was the first. Like, the entire, like, this is the screen. We're going touch the screen. And the keyboard is very easy on the screen. Like, you don't have to, you know, have something else pop out to be a keyboard. You don't know, like. And so you're right.

01:07:58
Sam
There's, like, there's like, this massive shift in, like, how we view and then how smartphones started to be built, because at that point, like, there were still things that were more like the BlackBerry, more like, you know, the sidekick, that kind of thing where you just, you weren't necessarily doing the t nine thing anymore, but you definitely had a built in keyboard on your compute on your phone that had nothing to do with, like, the screen of it, right?

01:08:30
Case
And, like, man, I. Okay, I'm just gonna just say the following things. All right? So, one of my favorite phones I ever owned was a Windows phone seven. It was the LG Quantum, which was a slide out Qwerty keyboard. It was goddamn great. The only phone I wanted more at the time was the HTC one, which I forget the name for it, but that was great. And then later in life, I actually was one of the people who did the pro preorder for the function tech or fxtech keyboard phone that was like a six and a half inch, or, like, six inch, maybe. I think it was six inch, like, glass slab smartphone, except it also had a slide out keyboard built into it. That was amazing.

01:09:12
Case
Except it didn't really work very well with at and t bands, and so I couldn't really use it very well at work. And I ultimately switched over to a note because I, like, stylus is awesome, but I just needed to, like, say, like, man, I did love me some. Some QwErty keyboard phones. But. But the form factor is not actually the big deal. The form factor is just sort of, like, the. The part which is, like, really interesting from a design standpoint, and that it allowed for it to become adopted so much. It's really the fact that mobile computing had become so big. Like, even. Even computers had become way more mobile in those years. Like, the MacBook Air had come out at this point, which was famously like, look, this computer fits inside of an envelope as they're advertising for it.

01:09:58
Case
Netbooks had become really huge at this point, and Apple was trying to compete against them with the iPad. And tablet computing in general was widely talked about, as was e readers were becoming really big at this point. The Kindle came out only a couple of years before this. So the idea of always having electronic devices on your person went from being sort of a thing that they would show off in, like, superhuman samurai cyber squad as, like, a convenience for, like, them, you know, presenting some sort of, like, contrivance for a Kaiju fight inside the world of a computer. But by the time we get to when Tron legacy comes out, like it is, very much the reality of the world is that everyone is actively connected to the Internet as they walk around in day to day life.

01:10:40
Case
And so the idea of being a malicious force that is a true AI existing inside the Internet as a whole is way more terrifying. It's literally the plot of the most recent mission Impossible movie. That's the thing that they could have been working towards, but instead they're like, well, what if he just invades and it's like, that's. But again, terrible plan. There's so many holes.

01:11:05
Sam
Yeah, yeah, so many holes. So many holes to the plant. Just. There's just so many things. But maybe they just thought, like, the, like, the regular people would think that the Internet was scary enough because now we know all the. Maybe. Maybe from our. I mean, you were saying this back then, boo, but now we actually know, like, how much messaging on the Internet can affect your future.

01:11:34
Case
Right? Yeah.

01:11:35
Sam
I mean, like, disinformation. Like, you know, it's a little scarier standing on this side of it, too.

01:11:41
Case
Yeah. Like, we've seen what this does to elections. We've seen what this has done to warfare between nations. Like, you know, the. The 2024 perspective of this is like, oh, you would invade. How quaint. Which is why I'm sort of saying it's a terrible plan. And how quaint of a planet is, like, the idea of just, like, coming through a portal to attack is like, well, but there's, like, that's not even like, a plan. Like, just like. And I keep saying that, like, why would you invade with a large army? What, send it like a sleeper cell if no one knows that you can come from the computer world, set up multiple portals. Like, you know, work at it.

01:12:16
Geoff
This.

01:12:17
Case
All the different ways you could potentially make this work better. Like, have scouts. Scouts are, like, the thing that I just don't understand why he doesn't have. Like, he's just like, I'm gonna send a full Armada, like, all of my forces, including myself, through this portal that we've never been through. No one has any idea what's on the other side aside what we've kind of gleamed from, like, talking to this crazy old man. Like, fucking hell. Anyway, yeah, I think this was a good episode of the show. Talking about a movie that feels like a first pass, which is why it's a great foundation for another pass. Like, there it is. We said the name of the show, and so I was really happy with it. And it's a good conversation with Jeff.

01:13:00
Case
And did you have anything else you wanted to say about the episode?

01:13:05
Sam
No, honestly, because I just. I think that everything that you and Jeff said was, like. Right? Like, honestly, like, you. You honestly, the both of you were able to pinpoint exactly, like, a lot of the pitfalls of the film. And. And I thought a lot of the suggestions were really good. Honestly, they could have gone with any of them and made even a half decent film out of it. You know, it doesn't. We don't even need to shoot for greatness, honestly. We could have just had, like, a good film. We could have had an aesthetically pleasing film with characters that you care about. And I think that's the biggest issue here. I don't really. I don't really care about anyone, for real. Like, I like them, but I don't know if I care about them. Yeah, well, most of them.

01:13:58
Sam
I like most of them.

01:14:01
Case
Yeah, that's fair. Again, it's a charismatic cast. Like Christ.

01:14:05
Sam
Yeah.

01:14:06
Case
Like, Michael Sheen's in it.

01:14:08
Sam
Michael Sheen. When I saw him again, I was like, oh, yeah, Michael Sheen. I love Michael Sheen.

01:14:13
Case
Yeah. Like, the whole cast. Cillian Murphy is like, such a random fucking part. Considering that this didn't get a sequel, I know that there's supposed to be a sequel in the works. I don't know how well connected it's going to be to this one, but it was clearly sequel bait and that they. They didn't do anything with it. And this movie wanted to be so much more than it was. It was like, we're going to launch a franchise. And it didn't, like, it just didn't do the work to be, like, a good solo movie. And kind of part of that is it swung too big. We're going to invade the real world. How do you up the stakes from there? That's a third movie situation.

01:14:50
Sam
Yeah, you can't. They didn't leave any room to grow.

01:14:54
Case
Yeah. Anywho, I'm glad to revisit this episode as I always am, just because for me, this project is giving me a chance to sort of talk about the behind the scenes stuff of the episode. There's not a lot going on with this one. We just wanted to talk about it. It was a movie that was always on the list to discuss because it's a perfect fodder for the show. Yeah, yeah. So that's my take on this episode.

01:15:23
Sam
Did you take another pass? At another pass?

01:15:25
Case
Yeah, this is my pass at another pass. At another pass. Yeah. So for me, people can check out what I'm working on at our website, certainpov.com, where you can find this show and tons of other great shows. You can check out a link to our discord server and come talk to us directly. Even Sam will respond if you message her.

01:15:49
Sam
Yeah, maybe.

01:15:52
Case
Yes. She's air nomad on the discord.

01:15:56
Sam
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll try. I'll try. I'll try. But if you have any complaints or you hate daft punk and you want me to tell, just don't do it or tell case, not me.

01:16:07
Case
Yeah, because I'll fight you. Because I love daft punk a lot. But you can fight me at Twitter or all the other platforms at case Aiken, except for Instagram, where I'm holding on to my aim screen name for dear life. And you can find me there at Quetzalcoatl five because I was a pretentious high schooler that was into both mythology and the legion of superheroes. Ha. You know, you should also check out, like other great shows at our network, we referenced Jeff, who is on this episode. Jeff is one of the hosts of fun and games with Matt and Jeff. Jeff is our current editor. He's a great guest, and Matt is our former editor and also an awesome person. And so check that out. It's a really positive conversation about video games.

01:16:50
Case
And then they have their side project, side quests, where people talk about video games that they love for about five to 15 minutes. And it's a lot of positivity about the gaming space, which, you know what this movie needs, because that is the goodwill that makes it kind of a classic for me, even though it's objectively not a good movie.

01:17:08
Sam
Indeed.

01:17:10
Case
So, yeah, so check out that. And, I don't know, I've got a ko fi account now or ko fi. Ko fi. If you just search for case Aiken, you'll find me there if you want to support. And we'll give out shout outs on the show. Like, Micah Macaw, who is a past guest of the show he was on for our islander, Doctor Moreau episode is a supporter of me. And you can be like that, too. And at some point, Micah will tell me what episode he wants us to do just for funsies.

01:17:45
Sam
But, you know, oh, I cannot wait because he brought us a great movie and, yeah, can't wait.

01:17:53
Case
Great weird movie.

01:17:55
Sam
So, yeah, I loved it. I loved it. All the facts.

01:17:57
Case
Yeah, check out all that. Check out our YouTube channel. It's really grown very big recently and even got monetized, which is really cool. So certain pov media on the youtubes, you can find full episodes of the podcast. You can also find my Superman analog series. And, yeah, that's about it at the moment. We used to do the sidequest videos, but those kind of fell off when I had a baby. And you can still find sidequests on YouTube over on the fun and games. You can still find sidequests on the fun and games YouTube channel, so it just kind of started to feel redundant at a certain point.

01:18:30
Sam
Yeah.

01:18:33
Case
But, yeah, check out all of that. Check out the fun and games YouTube channel because they've got all their content there, too. So if you prefer YouTube over your podcast or platform of choice, or rather, if YouTube is your podcast platform of choice, you can check that out there, too. And then let's see, on these episodes, we actually do go behind the scenes in terms of what we got coming up in the works, right?

01:19:01
Sam
We actually do tell them.

01:19:02
Case
Yeah. So let's see, we just did the reboot episode of the main show, so that's a really good one. That's with red from certain point, or that's with red from overly sarcastic productions. God, can you imagine if it was red from a certain point of view? That would be.

01:19:16
Sam
Oh, that'd be amazing. It would be a coup.

01:19:20
Case
We would be so powerful. But yeah. So let's see, next up, we've got sky captain and the world of tomorrow is coming up on the main show. That's with Jesse Fresco, who is a firebrand. And this is a movie to be fiery about because it is a foreboding harbinger of doom for the movie industry. Spoiler for our take on the movie. Yeah. So that's what you got there. And then in terms of the next app. App, episode, let's see what is up for that. So next up, oh, is teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles three, which we'll have addy on for. And that's a really fun episode because we nailed the pitch within the first 20 minutes. And then we just riff on other random ideas for a Ninja Turtles movie for a while. But it's a. It's a really.

01:20:15
Sam
I can't wait to rewatch that movie because I love being a turtle.

01:20:18
Case
You know, I have a thesis, which is that I cannot not have a good time watching a Ninja Turtles movie. Like, I will always enjoy the time I had watching that movie. Even if it's the worst Ninja Turtles movie.

01:20:30
Sam
I still own that movie on VHS.

01:20:32
Case
I I have it on DVD and own it on Amazon.

01:20:35
Case
So we're.

01:20:37
Case
We are in good company. Anyway, yeah, so that's what you can look forward to for the next episode of the main show and of the app. App shows. And, you know, until then, if you enjoyed this show, pass it on.

01:20:53
Sam
Day scruffy, my nerd herders.

01:20:58
AD
All right, josue, let's go through our new comic day stack. We have a lot to review. I know, maybe we've gone too far. Let's see. Marvel, of course. DC. I got image. Dark horse mask.

01:21:11
Sam
Boom.

01:21:11
AD
Idw. Aftershock vault. Of course. Mad cave oni. Valiant scout. Magma behemoth. Wow, that's a lot. Well, all we need now is a name for our show.

01:21:25
Case
We need a name for a show.

01:21:26
AD
About reviewing comic books every week. Something clever, but not too clever, like a pun. It's kind of cheesy. Yeah. Something that seems funny at first, but we might regret later on as an impulsive decision. A few dozen episodes in. Yeah, we'll think of something. Join Keith and O sway for we have issues, a weekly show reviewing almost every new comic released each week, available on geek elite media and wherever you listen to your podcasts.

01:21:53
Case
I love that. It sounded like you said nerd herders.

01:21:58
Geoff
I did.

01:21:59
Sam
Sounds like that. Oh, my gosh.

01:22:01
Case
Anyway, all right. Whoo.

01:22:04
Sam
Maybe it will be from now on, you nerd herders.

01:22:09
Case
We'll be on what? Cpov certainpov.com.