Another Pass at Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker

Oh, god... we're doing it. We're doing The Rise of Skywalker. Case and Sam are joined by professional nerd, Adam Lance Garcia, to chat about the... troubled... finale of the trilogy of trilogies.

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Overview

In the recent Analytical Discussion and Film Critique meeting focused on "Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker," participants engaged in a thorough analysis of the film, sharing mixed reactions and emphasizing its rushed pacing and clunky narrative while acknowledging its visually striking elements and dynamic fight scenes. The discussion delved into character development, highlighting Rey's growth, debating Kylo Ren's potential redemption, and noting Finn's underutilized storyline, as well as criticism of Poe's character shift. Nostalgia and fan service were significant topics, with many feeling the film leaned too heavily on references to the original trilogy while lacking connections to the prequels; the return of Palpatine sparked debate regarding its necessity. Further critiques centered around the film's multiple MacGuffins and side quests, although the concept of the Force dyad was praised. Participants offered suggestions for alternative plotlines and character utilization, and discussed how elements from the Expanded Universe could have enhanced the film’s reception.

Notes

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker Discussion (00:00 - 15:00)

• Participants discuss their reactions to the film

• Movie criticized for trying to please everyone

• Film feels rushed and clunky

• Positive aspects: dynamic fight scenes, visually appealing

Character Analysis (15:00 - 30:00)

• Rey's character development and powers discussed

• Kylo Ren's arc and potential redemption debated

• Finn's storyline viewed as underutilized

• Poe's character shift criticized

Nostalgia and Fan Service (30:00 - 45:00)

• Movie relies heavily on callbacks to original trilogy

• Lack of prequel trilogy references noted

• Palpatine's return debated as necessary vs. forced

Plot and Narrative Issues (45:00 - 60:00)

• Multiple MacGuffins and side quests criticized

• Pacing issues and rushed storylines discussed

• Force dyad concept praised as interesting addition

Improvement Suggestions (60:00 - 75:00)

• Participants offer alternative plot ideas

• Suggestions to better utilize established characters

• Ideas for incorporating prequel trilogy elements

Expanded Universe and Canon (75:00 - 90:00)

• Discussion of how EU elements could have improved the film

• Debate on canon vs. non-canon storylines

• Comparison to other Star Wars media

Transcription

00:00
Case
That's a hard thing to set up. And when you have so much to do, it's difficult. I get it. It's difficult. And then not to mention the fact that we're also gonna have to be dealing with the death of Carrie Fisher, who was supposed to be one of the main characters of this movie. And that is going to dramatically change the type of story you're able to tell in the first place.

00:23
Adam
Welcome to certain point of views. Another pass podcast. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and review on iTunes. Just go to certain povs.

00:34
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another past podcast. I'm case Aiken, and as always, I am joined by my co host, Sam Alicea.

00:40
Sam
Hello.

00:42
Case
And today we are joined by nerd about town, Adam Lance Garcia.

00:47
Adam
That is the most accurate. Yeah, I've never had that most accurate description yet. Nerd about town. Yeah, no, that's. That's exactly it.

00:54
Case
Yeah.

00:54
Adam
That's exactly what I am. You win. I've been on a lot of. I've been on a lot of podcasts, and everyone's like, well, how do I interview you? Nerd about town? That's a. Yep. Yep. That's. That's it.

01:04
Case
Yeah. Well, last time you and I were talking was over on the Men of Steel podcast where were talking about Superman three, and we figured, hey, that was a bit more off your specific brand. Today we wanted to talk about something a bit more on brand, but that brand, if you want to sort of give some quick plugs, by all means.

01:19
Adam
Oh, well, my boy, my brand is. If you follow me on Twitter, it's mostly every morning. You'll understand. You'll know how many days are left to whatever upcoming Star wars project is coming. Right now, I'm counting down to rogue squadron and book of Boba Fett. But mostly, I just like Star wars publicly. I'm a writer and I'm a producer. I've got a upcoming audio drama based on the green Llama coming out November 5 and a couple of other projects that are in the works that I really want to talk about. But my day job is I work at Conde Nast interviewing celebrities for a living. It is a weird ass job. I'll tell you about it later.

01:59
Case
Yeah, well, and so, as you said, you talk a lot about Star wars, and this show is built on a foundation of Star wars. The certain pov podcast network was initially a Star wars show that spun off into all kinds of crazy stuff. Another pass began as a discussion of the prequel trilogies that we recently revisited on the show. The first episode of the show was Return of the Jedi. It seems appropriate to have one such as yourself on today to discuss Star Wars Episode nine, the Rise of Skywalker.

02:32
Adam
Yep. Everyone's favorite Star wars.

02:34
Sam
Huh. Everyone's, everyone's.

02:39
Case
You know, it's funny. I woke up this morning, and the first tweet I saw was, someone had tweeted, imagine finding a person of your preferred sexual identity and just your type, and you just never happened to talk about Star wars until one day after months of dating. They say my favorite Star wars is the rise of Skywalker, followed by attack of the clones.

02:59
Adam
Oof.

03:00
Sam
Wow.

03:01
Adam
Yeah. Yeah.

03:02
Case
And I was like, well, that's perfect, because I'm in that space right now. I rewatched the entire sequel trilogy, and, in fact, I think this is the first time where I've watched them all back to back since they all came out. And, man, it's a weird trilogy to look at for completely different reasons than the prequels, and they just don't stick the landing with this movie.

03:24
Adam
Yeah, they don't. And there's a lot of reasons why. Because I think, for my money, a friend of mine who doesn't love the Last Jedi by any means, he does. Really. He puts it this way. The Force Awakens and the Last Jedi are really good. Diptych. It's a really good two part story. His biggest issue with the Last Jedi was that it doesn't. To his mind, it doesn't really feel like the middle chapter feels like a conclusion, which is a valid. Which is a valid criticism and one of the few valid criticisms I've heard from people who don't like the Last Jedi. But I think it's interesting, for my money, like, the Force Awakens and last Jedi work really well together because Rian Johnson did a good job of, like, yes. Anding the force awakens. He's like, yeah.

04:10
Adam
She's like, you know, Ray really wants to find her parents. Yes. And they're nobody. There's a lot.

04:19
Case
Rey wants to find Luke Skywalker and hand him his lightsaber. Yes. And he throws it away.

04:22
Adam
And he throws it away like, Luke abandoned the galaxy. Yes. And it's because he blames himself, which is something that's actually in the force awakens. There's a lot of yes. Ending that really works to my taste, and I think with the rise of Skywalker, it's more of a yes, but it's more of. Oh, Rey's parents are nobody. Yes. But actually, they sold her to protect her. I. Because she's Palpatine's heir. Snoke is dead. Yes. But actually, he is a meat puppet for Palpatine. It's a lot of yes budding. There are good examples of yes anding. Like the. I think for my money, the force dyad is a really good example of yes anding, and I'm still shocked.

05:03
Adam
That was like, I'll never understand why they muddied the ground with having the forced dyad to, like, explain her raise power and her connection to Kylo Ren. And then they're like, and also, she's a palpatine. When you just add, like, right, there you go. Forced Dia. That works. That solves all your issues.

05:20
Case
Yeah, fair stuff. But I mean, like. And I'm gonna come off as very harsh in this movie because it killed a lot of the momentum I was feeling for Star wars at the time.

05:29
Adam
Same.

05:29
Sam
Don't worry, I'll balance you out with optimism.

05:34
Case
Our another past diet is perfect.

05:38
Adam
But.

05:39
Case
There are amazing scenes in this movie, and then there are just some sort of depressing desires to sort of placate the masses in some cases and in other spots, just to feed the worst impulses of Star wars fandom. Like, to have everyone be tied into specific bloodlines, to have some of the elements all be callbacks. It depressed me when I saw it because there was so much potential in it, but at the same time, it doesn't quite work. And part of it is the original sin of the Force Awakens, which is that it is a soft reboot that feels like a fan film, like a really amazing fan film, or just a spin off work where we're introducing new characters, even a new droid, and it's all.

06:21
Case
It's tied into the larger universe, but it is not as firmly invested in it as the way that, honestly, one through six actually does end up being. Yeah, and that's a kind of a problem, then, when you look at the larger. This is the 9th movie, and it's not only a conclusion to this trilogy, but it's actually a conclusion to the whole story that we've been telling over eight movies at this point. And that's a hard thing to set up. And when you have so much to do, it's difficult. I get it. It's difficult. And then not to mention the fact that we're also gonna have to be dealing with the death of Carrie Fisher, who was supposed to be one of the main characters of this movie.

06:56
Case
And that is going to dramatically change the type of story you're able to tell in the first place.

07:01
Sam
Yeah, I think both. Both of you are right in the fact that this movie in particular, walked a lot of things back, and that's why it has so much to do. Like, I remember thinking that I wish that Kylo became Ben a little sooner in this film, because I just feel like there's so much work to do in that last part of the film to kind of get him to the space where he's, like, really with her and joined her on her personal mission, whatever that may be, in our official pitches later on.

07:38
Sam
But I just feel like, because we spent so much time resetting, almost, it's not a full reset, but it's a partial reset, that it takes a little longer to get where we need to be to get to the conclusion, which makes the conclusion feel rushed and kind of gives us season eight of Game of Thrones traveling where, like, everyone, I mean, this planet that no one could find must be in the very center of the universe, and everyone can find it in this movie because it takes no time at all for everyone to get exactly where they need to be so that the day can be saved. But I think that part of the problem of walking some of these backs instead of just embracing and, yes, ending and being like, okay, this is.

08:21
Sam
This is where we started, and I have to go from here. Is that the last. I'll be generous. The last 45 minutes is just a rushed train wreck because you just have to get it. You gotta get it done now. You gotta get it done.

08:38
Adam
Yeah.

08:38
Case
And there's this weird desire to stuff a lot of things in this movie that are brand new. Like, people have. People have said that this is a movie that is trying to be episodes eight and nine because eight was not satisfactory in terms of moving forward the story that wanted to be told in this movie. And so it's doing a lot of heavy lifting to try to get there, and I think a lot of it is wasted. Like, I think that they. They stuff a lot of things in. And I've heard that the. The original cut was substantially longer, what was, like 4 hours or something to that effect.

09:10
Adam
It was. It was a lot longer. And, I mean, from what I understand to that point is that, you know, this is. To put it simply, this is the JJ cut. There is no JJ cut that's out there. Like. But I think it's one of those things where Trevorrow. Not Trevorrow. Excuse me. I forgot the writer's name. They wrote a larger story than could really be put into this final act, and they made a very long film, and JJ cut it down, cut it down. Partially for himself, partially for the studio wanting to have a two and a half hour movie. And by studio, I mean Disney. You know, so they. You know, they kind of made a really small. A really jam packed film that didn't have the time to breathe. But again, this is the JJ cut. I really want to be.

09:55
Adam
I. Like, I do not want anyone to ever, like, listen to this. Like, oh, is there a JJ cut out? Like, you saw the JJ cut? It is the one that was in theaters.

10:03
Case
We've heard whispers, but I think it's just one where it's like, yeah, there's footage that didn't make the movie. That happens with all movies.

10:10
Adam
Exactly. I mean, if there's one thing I've learned recently is that a lot of people don't know how film is made. It is. I think there's. It's interesting, and this is a larger conversation, but. Yeah, like, if anyone says, like, oh, this. It's a deleted scene, clearly there's a different cut. No, it's just that there's a deleted scene. You know, that's it. Like, they filmed it. It didn't work in the context of the story, so they cut it or they changed their mind or whatever. It doesn't mean that there is a radically different cut that someone's hiding. You know, I mean, there are cases that has happened. You know, there are versions. Like Lynch's dune was taken over by the studio, but, like, in this specific case, you know, this is. This is the version that JJ wanted.

10:53
Case
Yeah. And Star wars has a huge history of movies both being recut by the studio, but also being recut for the. For the better. I mean, the original Star wars is our classic example of a movie that found itself in the edit of is a totally different movie as a result.

11:06
Adam
Oh, yeah.

11:06
Case
Like, I don't think anyone's really fighting for, like, that biggs darklighter scene to be reinserted in there for any sort of, like, super special edition. I don't know what you'd call it at this point.

11:16
Adam
Yeah. Unless you're Alex from Star wars explained who just loves biggs dark lighter.

11:23
Sam
There's one person. Case. There's one person. You were wrong.

11:26
Adam
I'm not gonna king shame.

11:28
Case
Looking at this movie, you know, it's clear that it is a product of being put together very quickly. The whole sequel trilogy in general had sort of an issue of the original trilogy and then the prequel trilogy each came out with three years in between. And this reduced it down to two. And they tried to get it to this cycle of production where there was a Star wars property coming out every year up through this one, and they were like, oh, fuck, we've screwed this up. We've done. We don't know where we're going. We're rushing too fast. Let's pull it back. And now we're getting, you know, the Disney plus stuff, which is, generally speaking, pretty good. We're all pretty excited about all of that. You know, mandalorian scratches, a particular Star wars itch.

12:07
Case
It doesn't scratch everyone's Star wars itch, and likewise, bad batch. Not everyone's into animated stuff. Like, you know, we're. But we're getting stuff out there, and there's clearly love and it's coming out when it's ready, as opposed to fitting that, like, well, we gotta get it out there for, like, the December schedule kind of thing. So, like, that's great. Great. This one was unfortunately suffering in this, like, crunch of, like, we have to get it out there. And it's like, you didn't. Yeah, you got. You got really far ahead of yourselves, and, like, we're stuck with a release date. That's just kind of an unfortunate thing.

12:38
Sam
People would have waited. I think Disney should understand this. We. We would wait. We do wait. That's what Star wars fans do. We wait. I mean, clearly Adam has Twitter letting us know when it's there. We would have just checked that, and we would have been like, hey, when do we have to wait for that for? And we would have been able to. We were fine with that. But you're right, Kate. This very rushed schedules and, you know, just kind of like, deciding that they want to make everyone happy with this film and no one happy, clearly. Especially not case.

13:11
Adam
Yeah, yeah, I think that it's like, it's weird because the thing that always boggles my mind about people, the thing that people don't seem to understand. The Last Jedi probably had the longest lead time in terms of production, more so than even the Force Awakens, because the Force Awakens was being changed basically to the last minute, whereas the Last Jedi was the one, like, he wrote it as they were producing that he. It was all like, so much more work was done in advance of that movie than any other film. And I think their thinking was, you know, even though case, your opponent's, like, they were trying to get a cadence where, like, they have, while one films in production, they're working on the early product pre production so they can dive right into the next one and have that handover.

13:54
Adam
And that was what was happening with the Trevorrow, cut, the Trevorrow script. But for a number of reasons, including the passing of Carrie Fisher, they decided to shift gears to JJ after some consideration of other filmmakers. And they decided that, you know, like, let's, you know, give ourselves six months extra lead time when they really should have given themselves an extra year because, and that was that. And that was Disney being like, you know, let's just get it out. We need to get it out. And I think that if there's a better world where, like, they decided, like, we'll. We'll push it to from May night 2019 to May 2020, where we're only getting the.

14:33
Adam
Because of the pandemic, we got it out now as a better movie because JJ would have done, like, a shit ton of reshoots and just, yeah, made a better movie, but we got what we got.

14:43
Case
And unfortunately, what we got is, in a lot of ways, trying to overcorrect for what was sort of the fan outcry of the Last Jedi, an outcry that I'm not convinced would happen now. Like, after the Last Jedi, Rian Johnson went on to do knives out, and that has, I think, earned him a lot of, like, good favor in film communities that he didn't have at the time of Last Jedi. So there is a little bit of a vibe there. You know, we know that there's a lot of hate that was being directed at people who were attached to that movie. Kelly Marie Tran had to, like, leave social media because she was being harassed so terribly. And her character is almost written out when you get to this movie because there was just this big fan backlash.

15:23
Adam
I will say, though, like, the. Since, just to push back on that a little bit, there probably was a bit of reaction to the Last Jedi in the production. But you gotta remember, like, the idea to return Palpatine and a lot of the early ideas of this film were started before the Last Jedi had even premiered. So they were sort of already into production before the, or at least into screenwriting before the Last Jedi came out. So there wasn't that much. Oh, we need to react to what the fans were saying. I mean, I'm sure I've heard rumors that there was a Reddit guy on set, like, being like, what are they saying on Reddit about the film? But that is a rumor without any evidence.

16:08
Case
Well, sure, but we do have scenes, like when Rey throws away Luke's lightsaber, his force ghost steps out and catches it and says, you know, and basically has kind of an f you line to the last Jedi where it's like, this needs a little more respect.

16:21
Adam
And to that, like, there are articles with Chris Therio was the writer who said like, yeah, no, we weren't trying to, like, shit on the movie. We were just, we like, to their mind, it was this, like, well, this is. He's completed his arc. He's come back and realized, hey, what I did was wrong. This is not how you should act. You know, it's one of those. I'll put it this way. I think there's a lot of things that because of the fan backlash and some of the narrative around the fan backlash with the Last Jedi and going into the rise of Skywalker, that some creative decisions made by JJ and Terry, oh, and everyone else, those decisions were made in good faith to make the best movie that they thought they could make based on their own interpretation or interpretations of the film.

17:07
Adam
The Last Jedi and the saga in general. But because of the narrative around the meta narrative, basically we start reading into that, like, well, that's a fuck you to the Last Jedi, and that's fuck you to the Rian Johnson. But when in fact, it's probably just like, Terry on JJ are like, you know, he threw it away. That was where his character was, and then he picked up the lightsaber at the end, so when he comes back, he's gonna catch it. Like, that's. That's where they're coming from.

17:34
Case
Yeah, that's fair. And that is how I read it in the scene. But it does feel, from a meta perspective, that there is at least commentary in terms of trying to distance itself, at least in terms of moving the characters more in line of where they wanted to end the movie. From. From my vantage point, more, it felt like they were trying to shift characters further along the character development to get to the end narrative that we wanted for it. It felt kind of like to bring up the Game of Thrones discourse again. What is it? The pantsers versus plotters kind of scenario, and, like, really trying to drive the plot one, which I think is a reductive kind of discussion about screenwriting.

18:09
Case
I think that if you have no plan, that's a problem, and if you have no feel for your characters, that's also a problem. So I don't think. I don't think writers need to necessarily fall in one of those two camps, but it does feel here like they wanted Luke to be more of an approving, spectral figure for Rey at that point, so they shifted him a little bit more that way. I think there are a few spots like that in the movie where it's like, well, we need to get him, you know, we gotta get him back in the mask so that he can be, you know, a toy figure here for a little while. And then, you know, go through his arc as, like, going, you know, returning to the light after becoming so dark.

18:42
Sam
Right.

18:42
Case
When, you know, he's already made part of that journey in the previous movie. You know, things like that.

18:49
Sam
I mean, toys make the world go round, so at least the Star wars world.

18:56
Adam
Do they.

18:58
Sam
That's what they base everything on, right?

19:00
Adam
Yeah, that's what they think. That's what they think. But that's all outside the story.

19:05
Sam
So I'm gonna say that the fight scenes were pretty dynamic. I mean, like, overall, they were grand and they were big and they were. And doubling down on or. Yes, anding. I'm going to use that. Yes, anding. The dryad kind of space FaceTime Force calls from last Jedi in this led to some really cool stuff, you know, and, like, kind of where you see this reality between these two characters kind of meld into one so that even if they're in different parts of space, they can still share, like, physical items. And so there's some really cool stuff done with the effects in that, and it creates a new level to fights that we haven't really previously seen.

20:01
Sam
And I think that it makes for really interesting interrogation, especially when she's in his quarters and he's on a planet and kind of like, he's trying to figure out where she is, and it's the props that give it away, like their locations. That's really cool. That's a cool thought. That's a cool thing. I thought that the lightsaber fights actually, in this last film were probably more dynamic than all the other fights in the previous movies of this trilogy. Not previous trilogies, but this particular set of three films. And I thought that they actually did a really good job shooting them and a really good job kind of creating those huge, larger than life sword battles, which is very cool as a Star wars fantasy. I mean, that's what we like, right?

20:57
Case
Yeah. I got a harp on the across space battle, like Rey and Ren's quarters and Ren down on the planet's surface. That is my favorite sequence in this entire movie. It's one of my favorite things from this trilogy. It's so frustrating that it's in my least favorite of the three because it's so good. It does wonderfully grow on what was established in last Jedi, and it is the only major thing in this whole trilogy that changed the way I thought about the force, which I think was really cool. This is a sequence where all of a sudden, the concept of how the force works really became crystallized as it's not just psychic powers. It's not just they can move stuff in their mind or reach out to people.

21:44
Case
It's the thing that really made very clear what is in the text of the Last Jedi, but still doesn't feel it. That they are not just appearing as apparitions to each other, that they are literally interacting with each other. Right.

21:57
Sam
That there's a connection that ties them together.

22:00
Case
Yes. And this is the moment where it really was. Size matters. Nothing like that. This is the spot here where it doesn't matter where you are in the universe or how big or how small you are or whatever your condition is, you are able to interact in a way with someone through the force, in a way that resonates and is empowering to you because you are in the service of the Force, which I thought was so cool. This is the moment where maybe from Yoda's perspective, he's not actually flipping around and moving really fast. Maybe from Yoda's perspective, everyone else is moving in slow motion through the Force, and he just is moving by way of the Force. Like, maybe, you know, this is the moment where, like, oh.

22:41
Case
It's not just that they happen to have psychic powers while they're fighting with laser swords. It's that they are fighting on an entirely different dimension than what we are able to perceive outside of it. Like, effectively, these are fourth dimensional fighters. Like, they are outside of time space, interacting with each other across vast distances in combat. And that's so fucking cool. Like, how do you get a sequence that fucking cool in this movie? It's so goddamn smart, and at the same time has such interesting visual language. You know, like, I think the Last Jedi, like, just in general, like, the overall, like, the mise en scene, like, the. The way everything is arranged in the scene and the set pieces are really interesting. I think the. The. All of that is just incredible stuff.

23:28
Case
And I think that this movie doesn't ever quite have as dynamic a set piece, but this sequence is the closest, where you have snow inside an imperial star destroyer. You have berries dropping to the ground, and ultimately, you have, like, a podium with the head of Darth Vader being smashed and falling to the floor in this little world War two era town. It was amazing. I love it. And it changed the force for me in a way that I just. I couldn't get over how good it was.

23:57
Sam
And that revelation, mbaba freak, wasn't enough to make you change your mind about this movie?

24:04
Adam
Yeah. Cause I agree with everything you just said. So it does, like, you know, agreeing with, like, the way the force. I like the forced dyad to. That sequence in particular really stands out. I think it's a really good looking film. You know, something that a friend of mine said, like, it's. It's the biggest difference between, like, the prequels and this film in particular is, like, the prequels are, like, a good story, poorly told. Well, this while. Whereas the rise of Skywalker was, like, a. A bad story, well told. It looks really good. The performances are really strong, I think, you know, for what they are. I love the forest dyad. There's certain sequences that I really like. I like seeing Poe behind the falcon. I love seeing Rey. I always loved seeing Rey in the falcon. I think it's just a cool visual.

24:55
Adam
I like seeing Rey as its new lightsaber. I like her getting trained, like, training the force. So I don't think training is that important, despite what the haters say, but they can suck it. I think there's lots of little moments, like, even the light speed skipping, just that feel very Star Wars y. They just don't coalesce into a coherent narrative. I mean, even Palpatine's in return. Like, I don't necessarily mind it in Exegol. I don't necessarily mind. I just feel like. And I think we brought this up earlier, it's all just very rushed. Like, I even don't even mind, like, the fest quest. Like, it's an interesting idea for a Star war, but I don't think it was something that should have been done in the third film in the 9th, 3rd film in a trilogy. The 9th film in a trilogy of trilogies.

25:42
Case
Yeah, it's a little late to be adding the side quests for people at that point. And it's clunky. Like, the fact that it's, like, none of it actually makes sense and there's way too many steps is just more off of it. But I want to go back to Palpatine for a second because I was thinking about this one. I rolled my eyes when he first showed up on screen, but the more I think about it, the more I. I don't think you can actually do anything else. I think that is ultimately, if this is the 9th movie, in a franchise of three trilogies, and you need to have any kind of through line to connect all three. You either need Palpatine specifically, or you need some sort of way of representing to the audience that this is the larger sith threat. Like the.

26:27
Case
The presentation that Palpatine gives at the end, where he's. All the powers of the Sith are housed in me, and, like, all the. All. All those who came before are through me right now. And in the same way, Rey is representing all of the Jedi. Like, that kind of moment right there, I think, is actually. Yeah, that's the appropriate stakes that you need for this to be for the end point after we've already had both revenge of the Sith and return of the Jedi. Like, that actually makes too much sense. And there's a part of me that was so invested in the old EU where Palpatine kept coming back as clones, and it just was like. Just. It was almost to the point where it was like fucking Kenny from South park. And when it.

27:06
Case
When it showed up here, I was like, I don't know about this, but in retrospect, especially if you're looking at this as a canon of nine movies and nothing else, I kind of think you need it. And so I think ultimately, it was a good choice.

27:18
Adam
I mean, it's one of those things where I'm always of two minds, where I see your point. I think there are ways that one can handle Palpatine's return in a less clunky way. And I. I'll get into that a little bit later. But there's also, like, I was thinking about this morning, like, what if it's, like, what if it's plagueis? Like, what if. Or, like, what if it's. What if, like, snoke isn't actually dead? That, like, he's like. Like, you thought you killed me, but I. Snoop plague. My real name is Snook plagueis. I don't know, some shit like that. Like, where, like, I. Like, you know, something that taught you can tie it into, like, this larger sith threat. That, like, he's been there for a while, or there's really. There's three ways, really.

27:56
Adam
There's palpatine snoke returning and being something older and, you know, more connected to the grander sith tradition than we've. We did. We anticipated. Or it's Kylo. Yeah, and I kind of think that, like, it's Kylo is the main villain, which I think would have made for a better film, but that it then would have not become. I think if Kylo had been the main villain of episode nine, which, to my thing, my feeling he should have been, it would have meant that it really wasn't the end of the saga.

28:28
Sam
Right.

28:28
Case
I mean, that's fair. And, like, yeah, I guess part of it is me looking at it and being like, all right, well, what is the. What is the end point for Kylo, aside from just being a bad guy? And I certainly feel that the movie didn't spend enough time with Kylo being supreme chancellor or supreme leader of. Yeah, of the first order. Like, that seemed like he immediately went back to the dragon position as soon as they basically just establish Palpatine's out there. And I was just like, oh. And I think that's sort of. That's the danger with Palpatine and with all of this, which is that it's very easy to feel regressive to the original trilogy. Like, there's so much of this movie that feels like it could have been set between Empire and Jedi and would have worked just fine.

29:11
Sam
Yeah, well, I think also my thing is that I genuinely have a problem with Darth Vader. I have a problem even with Darth Vader's redemption in general, because I think, like, as a society, we like to redeem people who are really terrible way too easily. And the fact that, like, children run around dressed as basically a war criminal, when you really think about it, always kind of bugs me. And so I actually would have liked to them to just kind of double down on Kyle. I agree with Adam. I wanted Kylo to kind of just be like, no. Like, I've already passed the point of return. No return. Like, if he. If he. That's what I'm saying.

30:00
Sam
Like, I either needed more time with Ben, or I needed him to just go to the deep end and just be Kylo forever and not be redeemed, because I just feel like we spent so much time redeeming terrible men in movies, and it. It always kind of irks me because then people still walk around and, like, I don't know. I'm sorry if you're out there thirsting after Kylo, but you creep me out. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to kink shame, but honestly, like, it's just something that weirds me out that we continually do this stuff. And I feel like, on some level, like, maybe just, like, from my modern feelings as a person in this modern world, like, to me, Kylo kind of is a good representation of an Internet insult to me in the first couple of films.

30:55
Sam
And for me, I'm like, do we really need to redeem this character? Do we need him to follow that? Is that something that is a worthwhile while journey? What do we actually get? What does Rey get? Is this valuable to her journey pulling Ben back? Is she really the person that did it? Like, you know, Leia does it, but she doesn't really do it. Cause she's not really in the movie. So do we, you know, we. I mean, I assume. I don't know, but I assume that Harrison Ford showing up the way that he did as, is kind of what they may have done with Leia. I don't have inside information, so I don't know, but, like, I don't know that was necessary. Is it necessary to redeem Kylo? Is it necessary to redeem the Skywalker name? Is.

31:52
Sam
Is the rise of Skywalker, the fact that he is the dark side? I mean, I don't know. Like, I feel like I kind of always questioned that when I was watching it. I honestly, this one is a few things that I hated the kiss, and I. And I was just like, I don't. He's a murderer. Like, he's far less redeemable than most people in this film. Like, in these. In these trilogies.

32:24
Adam
That's very fair, especially considering, like, he does make a choice at the end of the Last Jedi. And it's like, if you want to redeem him and have a redemption, I don't think that's necessarily a bad story choice. I think, as presented in this film. And to your point, like, it's a little too easy. It's too easy. If it was too easy for Darth Vader, it was too easy for Kylo Ren. You know, we don't actually see Kylo Ren, like, murder children the way that we see Darth Vader do that. You know, there's a lot of.

32:58
Sam
We know that he's obsessed with this legacy, though, right? He's obsessed with this lore and, like, you know, being an allegory for space Nazi, that's basically a person being obsessed with a high ranking nazi officer and, like, going through its greatest hits and, like, oh, my God, like, and he did this and he did that, and I'm gonna be just like him. I'm going to be like my grandfather, and I'm going to rule the universe and bring order to it, and in this hyper violent way, using this darkness that's inside of me. And it's like, this person who actively chose this path. Right. Cause you can say whatever you want about Anakin and, you know, that kind of thing and his fall from where he was and what attributed. But Kylo's actively from the get seeking this lifestyle. Actively.

34:01
Adam
Yeah. And it's also, I was just thinking about this when you were talking about Kylo. I kind of wish we had an american history x redemption, because that's kind of what he is. You know, he is. One thing I always really liked about the first order that really wasn't explored is that it's the alt right. You know, it's these people who are looking up to this, the grand vision of this former fascist state, and they're trying to rebuild it. And, you know, I would think it'd been really fascinating that, like, you had, if you want to redeem Kylo Ren, you kind of have to do the work. And, like, american history X is a really good job of, like, here's a neo Nazi. He is a bad person. He murders people.

34:42
Adam
And then you actually see him learn the error of his ways and then work to find that redemption. And I think that's, like, something you necessarily couldn't do in episode nine, you could do in episode ten, but you have to set the groundwork in episode nine. So, yeah, it's like, I also. I kind of like the idea, and I know this will make a lot of Raylos mad, but I did like the idea that Rey shut the door on him in the last Jedi. And I kind of wish, like, I don't. I'll put it this way. I don't think there's necessarily anything inherently toxic or wrong in shipping Kylo and Rey. I do think that in terms of the.

35:29
Adam
At the text as presented after the last Jedi, they weren't necessarily going to, like, get back together right away or get together right away or whatever, however you want to present it, I think it's. If they were going to have Kylo go through a redemption arc and sort of a Jane Austen sort of, like, turn around and they realize what they mean. They needed to do the work, and the rise of Skywalker just doesn't do the work. Yeah, it just gives you the cliff note. And I think we've sort of said. We've all sort of said this before, but, like, in various ways, this is the cliff notes version of a better story. You know, there's, like, a lot of things in this that you're like, yeah, that works, but you didn't do the work to get there.

36:12
Adam
Like, I don't necessarily think Rey as a palpatine is a bad idea. I don't like it. I think it's a. It is a bad choice creatively for not just this film, but the saga in general, and also a big misunderstanding of Star wars. It's. But it's still not inherently a bad idea. You know, Kylo getting redeemed, not a bad idea. All the things in this movie, not necessarily a bad idea. Just, you know, they just don't do the groundwork to get to those. Those moments to be earned. They're not. You have, you know, your point case about, Luke, you know, getting to that, the catching the lightsaber, you're not doing the work to earn it.

36:51
Sam
Yeah.

36:51
Adam
You're not. You're not getting us there. You're just. You're giving us the moments without, like, you're giving us the moments without the scenes to bulk them up.

36:59
Case
And that is consistent with the third part of each of these trilogies.

37:03
Adam
Oh, God.

37:04
Sam
Yes.

37:04
Adam
God. Yeah.

37:05
Case
We have spent plenty of time talking about revenge of the sith and how they were trying to cram in basically all of the development that were supposed to get in that trilogy all into one movie. And return of the Jedi, honestly, has a lot of those issues as well, because the decision to wrap up the trilogy came right as they were going into production as opposed to long before. It wasn't built to be a trilogy. It was built to be a play on serialized storytelling. And it's impressive that Jedi ended up as good as it did in that regard. And that's probably just because it hadn't had a chance to build up so much momentum. And then revenge of the Sith, at least, was building to a point that we all were very aware of.

37:43
Case
This is, unfortunately, trying to do all of that very quickly, but also wrap up a massive story that has way more stuff going into it than any other point in the series and make.

37:56
Sam
Sure that you have room for merchandising and make sure that you have room for future projects that may not be part of this, but maybe spinoffs. Wink, wink.

38:06
Adam
Yeah, well, yeah, I will say, like, to the spin offs, that is, like, not something that JJ is thinking about, because. And this isn't. This is something to really keep in mind when discussing any Star wars film. The Force Awakens and the Rise of Skywalker are essentially licensed films. Bad robot produced them. Those, like, they, like, JJ got the rights to do them, and he, you know, Lucasfilm was involved, but when you talk about, like, how involved they were for the last Jedi or rogue one or solo or any of the tv shows. It's a completely different story version of that with the rise of Skywalker and the Force Awakens, where JJ basically came in as a licensed author and said like, alright, this is the story I'm telling you. Give me the rights to do this, I'm going to do the story.

38:54
Adam
I don't own this. But now, you know, you're letting me do what I want to do. The other thing is that I think the biggest thing to, and not just like it was trying to be the end of a trilogy of trilogies. The biggest problem with it, to my mind, is that it's the end of. It's trying to be the end of a trilogy of trilogies, but only really ever references the middle three chapters. Yeah, like, and that is the thing that I remember going out to the movie with a friend of mine who loves the film. And this is the, like, it was a 4D screening, and I was like, all right, let me go. Hang on, my buddy. Let's go see this film. Because I haven't seen while, you know, we should stay friends. So let's.

39:35
Adam
He's like, I already want to go see it in 4D. I'm like, all right, final. This will be my fourth time. It'll be the last time I see it in theaters. Might as well. And I had sort of, like, gone through, like, I have issues with it. I like it a little bit more. Okay. I've kind of accepted this. And then the fourth time, I was like, I hate every single second of this because my friend was laughing at all the wrong moments. And I said to him afterwards, I'm like, look, my issue with it is like, it's. You make a film that's trying to address eight previous films, but you're only referencing really four, maybe five if you count that one line from Revenge of the Sith. You're only referencing some of them. You're not looking at holistic, like, holistically.

40:13
Adam
It's not even referencing the prequels. He's like, well, no one gives a shit about the prequels. I'm like, well, you don't, but that's a fucking story. Like, the story begins in episode one and you're not doing anything. They're not doing anything with the content and context of that first film or those attack of the clones or revenge of the Sith. Like, they're not building on it. Also, you know, I'm like, clearly you are a 40 something year old man who doesn't pay attention to the Internet, because kids love the prequels.

40:43
Sam
Yeah.

40:43
Adam
You just missed out on it so that, like, there's a lot of sins in the rise of Skywalker, but the one I think that always stands out to me is how much it ignores the prequels.

40:55
Sam
Yeah. Case and I actually had a conversation about how. How you feel about certain Star wars movies might be when you're introduced to them. Like, when you joined, when you started watching, and I was like, all these younger kids, they love the prequels. Like, I'm not a huge fan of them. I really hate the second one, but I get it. And I do think that they should reference some stuff from there because it makes sense, especially since this guy is obsessed with Darth Vader. Kylo's character is obsessed with Darth Vader. That's the whole thing, right? He keeps looking at this freaking helmet, and they never do.

41:38
Case
Yeah. Like, I want to go back to my point about Palpatine. He makes sense as a major figure, at least, to be referenced, even if it's going to be, oh, this is our new avatar of the dark side of the forest. And Palpatine was the previous one, kind of thing. But he makes sense as a final, like, as an end point, assuming you're looking at nine movies, and I don't actually think he does if you're only looking at 456789, because he only appears then in. In six, like, he's barely. Or, you know, he's passed, you know, and pass referenced in. In five or, like, four. Four small references. In five, he shows up on. In a hologram, but, you know, he's a villain, the villain of six. And then.

42:17
Case
So for this movie to necessarily need to, like, feel anything about that, I don't know if it does. And, like, I don't think. I think you could have done a more interesting movie if you were only worried about the original trilogy by going off on what the first order itself is. Like, what is its end goal? What is. What is going on there?

42:34
Sam
Yeah, I mean, let's say what we're all thinking, though. Like, Snoke shouldn't have been snoke. It should have been Darth Jar. Right? I couldn't help myself. I'm sorry, Kate.

42:44
Adam
Sam. No, I think it is new Sam.

42:51
Sam
I think. I think that's. That's where we should have gone. It would have perfectly pulled in, and then there would have been people that'd be like, see, I fucking told you. Darth Jar is a real thing. And he'd be like, misa do not think you know what you think. It would have been amazing.

43:09
Case
Misa gonna show you powers. Other might call USA unnatural.

43:17
Sam
Misa feel the anger. Yusa feel the anger.

43:20
Case
I've gotta say, the fact that we don't even get like a montage shot where we see gungans, bundaboo or anything like that. Like, that's the crazy part to me. There's no illusion to any of the sets of the first aside. Apparently it's Mustafar at the beginning, but it doesn't fucking look like Mustafar. Like, who would know that when you're looking at this, there's nothing that's really tying in. And I likewise think that's an issue with this movie and why I think Palpatine works okay if you are trying to make it part of this nine part saga. But again, as part of Vi, it doesn't really work. One last thing before we get into the act or our pitches, because I think we can kind of go in circles about this movie for a while since it's like, yeah, there's a lot of great shots.

44:00
Case
There are good action sequences. Actually, before that, I don't like that Poe has basically turned into Han Solo by the end. By this movie. He was not Han Solo in the first two movies. That annoys me, but that is, for, that's for pitch conversations. Let's talk about the title. Like the rise of Skywalker. What the fuck does that mean?

44:21
Adam
Yeah, I heard. And this is apparently there were two versions of the script that the title that were being picked, like last minute before the movie came out, and they decided rise of Skywalker because the other title would have given too much away. I don't know what that is yet. But, yeah, I kind of like this part of me that I like the idea that Skywalker is in the final title because it's the Skywalker, the end of the saga, but it doesn't really mean much. It doesn't make much sense within the context with what's presented in the movie in any way, shape or form.

45:00
Sam
Yeah, I mean, the only thing that I could kind of like, and this would be me, like, making shit up is just that Ben would. Ben kind of rises to the occasion. Like, he comes forward and then at the end, she chooses her own name and she chooses to be a skywalker. And I would say, like, that would be the only thing that I would kind of, you know, like, basically, like, she's basically choosing her path and choosing not to be a palpatine.

45:32
Adam
Yeah.

45:32
Sam
And, I mean, that's. That's my best uneducated guess.

45:36
Case
Yeah, it's the. I mean, that is what happens at the end of this movie. I just think that scene is so painful, and it doesn't really make sense in character.

45:43
Adam
Yeah. Again, it's like this nostalgia moment for nostalgia, whereas I thought it was going to be like she was, like, the version I always had in my head was that she was going to be a skywalker. That was the new name for the Jedi, the rise of Skywalker. And now the Jedi are called Skywalkers, which I would have been perfectly happy with. Like, I would. Like, I would love. I think that would have been a really, like, clever way to sort of move the narrative forward. She's like, yeah, I'm Rey Skywalker, but Skywalker is, you know, sort of like, it's a good. Another example, it's like you become a doctor. You know, you had, you felt like, or like a lawyer become Esquire. Like.

46:25
Sam
Right.

46:26
Adam
You know, like, it's like, oh, I'm. I'm Adam Garcia Skywalker. Because I am a Skywalker. I. This is what I do.

46:33
Case
Yeah.

46:33
Sam
Yeah.

46:34
Adam
So that's what I thought they were going with.

46:36
Case
But it's a real tarmac and gelada tanagra. It's the metaphorical nature of language.

46:41
Adam
Exactly.

46:41
Case
Our real language works that way, too. Like, almost everything we, every word we have for a thing hearkens back to something. Thunder is named after Thor. You know, it's. That's just how it works. And you can see that in modern language, where every device, everything, you know, everything's a Xerox, everything's a Kleenex, every, you know, like, the brand takes over, and you could see that, like, maybe Luke becomes the new inspiration for what? When they're colloquially speaking about force users, it is a skywalker.

47:08
Adam
Yeah, yeah.

47:08
Sam
I mean, I think also, though, it is a callback, like, that scene, even though it's not, I mean, it's not the most amazing scene, but it is a callback to, like, in the middle, beginning middle of the movie, where someone talks to her on another planet, and they ask her. It's in the middle of that festival.

47:26
Case
Yeah, it's set up.

47:27
Adam
Yeah.

47:28
Sam
And they ask her name, and she says, Ray, and they ask her family name, and she says, I don't have one. And then at the end, she's asked again and she's asked for a family name, and she says, skywalker. And I guess, like, in some ways also, you can say, like, Leia was kind of a surrogate mother to her. And so, like, there is, you know, Luke trained her, and so I think they're trying to give you the warm feels. Now, whether or not that carries through, I don't know, but, like, I feel like that may have been the intention of at least that scene. And, like, she's claiming her family.

48:04
Case
Yes. But again, this is a spot where in theory, it makes enough sense, you know, when you describe it, but it doesn't work in terms of what they actually sell. Like, they are just putting the beat out there and not making you feel like it's earned. You know, she doesn't actually spend that much time with Luke. Leia, obviously, there's issues. But also, Leia has never called herself Skywalker, so there's that too. But even if she wanted to take that claim or she saw herself as being that connected to Ben, who is also named solo anyway, so whatever.

48:38
Sam
Yeah.

48:39
Case
Again, it all could work. Like, you could have spent enough time setting up her and feeling like it is through Luke that she has found purpose and family. Sure, but they just don't in this movie. And she just, like, turns back and just, like, Rey Skywalker. What? Like, because the scene is so awkward and the scene earlier. Yeah, it's set up, but it's also awkward where it's just like, oh, I'd like to know your family name, too. It's like, there are so many aliens in this galaxy. Not all of them have the same structure. Not even all the humans on this planet have the same structure for how you do names. Like, I don't understand why it felt like, oh, it's so weird. You don't have a last name. That's not that weird.

49:15
Case
Finn doesn't either, and they don't talk about that in this movie. And Finn just generally has a problem in this movie overall, feeling important. But as a foil to Rey, he is grossly wasted. And they really should have done something with that to sort of convey that they are now finding identity at this end of their journey, and that is what is giving them the strength to move on. If you felt like that for Rey and if you felt something like that for Finnish, that would make sense. But she. It's just look back into the distance and fucking forest ghosts.

49:47
Adam
Yeah. And it's also, like, to the fin of it all, I always find it interesting that, like, that Boyega is hard on the last Jedi, but, like, really enjoys working with JJ. And I'm like, JJ just didn't know what to do with your character. At all.

49:58
Case
Yeah, he's done so dirty in this.

50:00
Adam
Movie, and that's like. And it's bizarre that, like, he talks so highly of. Of JJ because it's like, you know, he kind of half asses everything. It's like he doesn't really get a stormtrooper rebellion, which would have made sense for his character. He doesn't really get to be a Jedi, which doesn't make any sense at all because it's like, there's no hint that he's have any Jedi powers. In the previous two films, he just used a lightsaber, and people. Certain people online mistake marketing for narrative. And. Yeah, it's a. Yeah, and he's just kind of. He's there shouting Rey half the time. So it's. It's a. It's a frustrating film.

50:42
Sam
Yeah, I think all of the. All of the side characters, all the supporting characters. Side characters. Samantha, all the supporting characters. I feel like, because there's just so many. There's just so much, like, there's just new stuff thrown at you left and right in this film, and it's the last film, and we're supposed to be wrapping things up, and all of a sudden. And I get it. Like, new planets. Fine, cool. Make the universe bigger. But also. Yeah, we're trying to wrap this shit up. You're inventing new narratives. Some of these characters almost don't even fit into what we need, and they're part of the side quest. And you're using characters, you know, Kelly Marie Train, she could have been on the side quest, like, you know, like. And there's just a lot of, like, not utilizing what's already there. Except for Bubba freak.

51:38
Sam
He was totally fine, and he was perfect, and I love him. And don't anyone touch him in any of your pitches, because I will stop talking to all of you. And just fair warning, I'm cool. I'm an adult. And, like, yeah, no, I think that, like, there's just. There's. They were, like, throwing the kitchen sink and the entire bathroom at you, even though that has nothing to do with the kitchen sink. But that's basically what this movie felt like. They were like, everything goes onto the wall.

52:06
Adam
And to that point, though, like, the new stuff in it, that's. The other thing that bugs me is that they added all these new elements that really don't feel connected to anything else that's happening. The narrative, like, Janna and Carrie Russell's character, all these new planets, Carrie Russell's character. There's all these things that just get thrown in. And again, it goes to JJ's sort of sensibilities, where it's. He does. He likes doing soft reboots. He likes doing. He's trying to, like, take stuff he likes and add his own new spin on it. But he's not really good at building on what's come before. And when you're trying to solve, like, you're trying to end a trilogy and a trilogy of trilogies, you really shouldn't be ending new things, adding new things, you should really be.

52:51
Adam
And this is something for my own writing that I'm dealing with. It's like I'm ending up a trilogy. And my rules are that if I'm going to add any new ideas or concepts, they have to be born from things that are established in the narrative already, from all the other books. It's like, well, a good example is there's this book often, and I'm introducing some aspects to the story. Well, I could tie that to the Macguffin, because in the rules that I set up already, it's kind of there. Those are there, like, so it builds out from what I'm doing. And I think with rise of Skywalker, he does a kind of a. He's like, well, what if we add a new. Like, a sword that is also a place you can go in a certain direction?

53:33
Adam
It's like, well, that's not really established as something that exists before. You know, like, it's. It feels like he's tacking things on. He's not building from what's established, if that makes sense.

53:44
Sam
And in that way, it feels distracting, you know? If it feels distracting, it's like, wait, what? There's new people. I have to learn about new people? Wait, okay, wait. Who is this person? Why are they here? Like. And you're already having, like, this intense storyline with your main characters, and now you're learning new characters, and you're having some of these main characters go into these, like, side moment, and it's like, okay, I get it. Yes, maybe. And it's just. There's so much happening in this movie. It can be a little overwhelming.

54:19
Case
And, I mean, like, you're allowed to introduce a new character, but have them fucking matter in a way that isn't just. Here's an additional MacGuffin, and there's so many macguffins in this movie. There's the. The captain's disc, there's the knife. There's the. There is the. The Sith locator device that they just won't call Holocron. Like, there's so much going on in this that to have just more and more characters thrown in there for the sake of adding stuff, like, I think you just hit the nail in the head about this movie, which is that this is a soft reboot of the trilogy that we're in that is also trying to wrap up this trilogy. Like, it's a time gap going on. We're resetting all the pieces at this point. Poe has now shifted gears to being basically just Han Solo.

55:05
Case
Finn is, like, now a little force sensitive, and, like, his days of being a stormtrooper are long past. And, like, Rose is now Leia's advisor, and, like, all the pieces are different than where we left off. And it would be fairly easy to jump into this movie fairly blind from previous stuff in the same exact way that Force Awakens Washington, that's a bummer.

55:27
Sam
And if you were a kid, you'd be totally fine with it. Cause there's lots of cool light up swords.

55:32
Adam
Yeah, exactly.

55:33
Case
And those look great. The fights, they do a really good job. Both this and force awakens of having actual light sources in the, like when they're filming so that you actually get the glow of the lightsabers on people. Those look fantastic. That's wonderful. The John Williams score, all the. All themes that were introduced for this trilogy. Great. I was thinking how much I really love Rey's theme. Like, it's plucky in, like, a really nice way, and I don't think I ever really thought too much about it in my initial viewing of this trilogy, but, like, oh, yeah, it's a nice detail going on in the background that really sells the character. Lots of great moments there. But again, as we keep saying, they didn't stick the landing and they didn't make any of the things that they concluded with feel earned.

56:15
Sam
You know what does stick landings, though? Other podcasts on this network.

56:19
Case
Yes, other podcasts on this network are great at sticking the landing. So why don't we give a quick break to shout out one of the shows on our network, and when we come back, we'll have some pitches.

56:29
Adam
Hi, I'm Matt, aka Stormigan, and I'm the host of CPOV autographs@certainpov.com. It is a bi weekly interview series.

56:36
Case
Where I interview folks from all over.

56:38
Adam
The arts, from writers to comedians to magicians to musicians, even actors, historians, podcasters.

56:46
Case
Pretty much anyone who's willing to chat.

56:47
Adam
With me for a little bit. If you like interesting conversations with even more interesting people, go to certainpov.com or wherever you get your podcasts. And remember, music is life, and life is good.

56:58
Case
And we're back. All right, so I am not allowed to go before Sam. Adam, this is your first time on the show, but you talk about Star Wars a lot, so if you feel good, you're welcome to go, or we'll force Sam to go first.

57:10
Adam
I worry that if I start talking, I won't stop talking. So I'll let Sam go first. I'll be a gentleman.

57:16
Sam
Wow. Usually I say guest first, but, okay, I'll take it. I'll try to be brief. I'm gonna say, because this is a trilogy and because I can't go back and, you know, change other things. Gotta. Yes. And all that stuff. Because ideally, if I'm going to do redemption, Ben, I would like him to figure that out last movie, but that's not gonna happen. So I'm gonna double down. I'm gonna double down, and I am going to have Kylo go to the deep end. I am going to have him be past the point of no return and actually lead his first order and kind of create kind of like a cult mindset with his knights, trying to find his Sith apprentice because, you know, Rey has kind of let him down.

58:11
Sam
I'm only sad about that because I kind of feel like the dryad can't happen then and there lose some really cool scenes. But I feel like it makes more sense coming in from last Jedi and kind of makes more sense into, like, what is kind of, like, happening throughout these. These stories. Because the problem is that because this tries to reset the. A lot of things there is not. The trilogy doesn't feel cohesive. It doesn't feel like one story going into another. It feels very jarring. I'm going to keep Poe and Finn and Kelly Marie chan together. I'm going to probably have them drop off on some of the planets that we have seen previously and specifically from the first trilogy. So maybe naboo, things like that. That way, when we're introduced to new characters, they're from cultures we've already seen.

59:09
Sam
And if we're going to get that nice fan call back, at least we're getting it in places that we've already been. I'm going to keep all the cute people, and I'm going to keep Boba freak and the world war two s kind of, you know, fascists have taken control of this planet scenario happen. C three po was perfect. I'm gonna leave him just the way he is. Love him. He's golden. Yes, I did mean the pun. I'm sorry. I'm not. I'm not sorry. I don't apologize. And, you know, I'm just. I'm going to let.

59:48
Sam
As hard as this is for me, I am going to let Carrie Fisher kind of have a few moments at the beginning, and I am going to let her go early, and I'm going to expand Lando's role in this to kind of tie in that first set of series and just let Billy Dew Williams run wild being a mentor to this group. And then the end is going to be a showdown between Rey and. And Kylo and leave it that way. And that's okay if that means that there's future and rise of Skywalker is Sith Skywalker, because he'll change his name to be his grandfather's name. He won't want to be a solo, and. Yeah, and that's how I would change it.

01:00:42
Sam
There's probably more I could say, but I feel like both of you have a lot to say, so I'm gonna hand it over.

01:00:49
Adam
Sure. So assuming everything happens the way that it happened, where, you know, Carrie passes away and they need to figure out what to do with this narrative. I would start this film basically with the funeral or shortly after the funeral of Leia. And I think a big part of what the overarching theme of this movie would be what happens when we're on our own. You know, they don't have Luke. They don't have Leia. They don't have Han. They're gone. And a lot it. You know, if this film is going to be about Leia, then let's make it about Leia. She's not there, but her presence is felt throughout the entire film. So, you know, either it's right after the funeral, the. Or she's. The war has been going for two, three years.

01:01:42
Adam
The first order controls most of the galaxy, and the resistance has grown a bit, but they're on the back foot. And I definitely. And something that Sam brought up is something I would love to do is, like, go back to Naboo or Coruscant. I have, you know, not necessarily. It's not necessarily in this order, but, like, seeing sort of a Game of Thrones esque ground battle between the first order and the resistance on, like, Naboo. And that calls right back to the episode one, this big ground battle between the good and the bad. Whether it's the beginning of the film or the end of the film, I haven't decided yet. But I really want something. I really want to continue on this idea that we use the force.

01:02:26
Adam
Dyad and Rey and Kylo are connected the entire time, that Kylo is always reaching out to her and trying to connect with her, and she keeps on pushing him away. And then they're still seeing each other on the battlefield. Imagine Rey leading the charge against Kylo, and they're just constantly, always close to fighting or close to killing each other, and then he has to get away. And let's see Kylo be this. Actually, that would probably be the end. The end would be on Naboo. Just to sort of again, ties everything back. But it's like this big last ground battle. I want to see Kylo ruling from Coruscant. He's scarred. So the beginning of the film, I'm bouncing all over the map. So just so you know, this is what a writer's mind is like. My girlfriend and I once had a fight.

01:03:18
Adam
She's like, you're a writer. Why can't you say what you want to say? Because it takes me months to figure out what I want to say.

01:03:24
Case
No, you just have a whiteboard with all the things you're trying to get at. But it's.

01:03:27
Adam
Yeah, it's all over the map. So I sort of see the film beginning again shortly after the funeral, the loss of Leia. It is a felt through the force in a way that nothing else is felt. It's the last Skywalker, essentially, of the. One of the twins. Kylo Ren is ruling from Coruscant, a battle scarred coruscant, and he feels it. And everyone understands that, like, the rules have changed now, because the last beacon of light, the last beacon of hope, the person that led them from the empire to the new republic, is gone. And her son is the bringer of darkness. Is there any hope left? So it is this rallying cry of trying to. We have to have this last stand is kind of like this sense of we're on our back foot.

01:04:21
Adam
We've lost everything we need to stand up and fight against Kylo Ren. You know, Finn's arc throughout the film is building a stormtrooper rebellion. That's something that's. I've seen the Trevorrow script. It's an idea that I've seen Alex Damon pitch around a lot, and I really like that idea. Like, he goes out and he builds a new army, helps them build a new army, and, like, takes them from the inside. He can go in as a underground. He can. Doesn't take Rose with him, maybe, but, like, he goes underground, you know, maybe Rey. And, like, if you want to keep the palpatine of it all, like, what if it's, like, naboo is Palpatine's homeland? Like, what if his, like, in essence, is there? Like, and you can have Kylo and Rey? The reason they're out going to Naboo is because the power is there.

01:05:15
Adam
I. Yeah. And they need to, like, it becomes this, you know, whoever gets there first will have this thing. I keep Rey a nobody. I think that's a really good storyline. It's something that, you know, she's the force dyad. We keep that. You know, I think to your. To Sam's point, like, Rey Kylo kind of goes off the deep end. If I do think that if he. He does survive the end of episode nine with maybe, like, an act of redemption, he does not get fully redeemed, but that leaves room for him to have an act redemption, whether that's in episode ten or if it's in the novels, to sort of, like, help his character grow.

01:05:58
Adam
And maybe him and Rey aren't a couple, but they're, you know, I think what I really want to see is Rey be the one to sort of extend her hand and be like, I forgive you. Or, you know, help him sort of come back to the light in some small way to sort of help his arc continue. I don't think I would have Lando in the movie because what is he doing there? You know, like, as much as it is mixing cocktails? Yeah, exactly. I think, yeah. I would love to see, like, poe, like, post struggling with this. What is it? He went to the arc of what does it mean to be a leader in last Jedi? So now he is the leader. He is the de facto leader of the resistance, and the galaxy is looking to him to lead it. Yeah.

01:06:54
Adam
Rey is sort of the person in front of the camera, so to speak, but he's the guy who's making all the decisions. So I would. I want the film to focus on mostly the new characters and old locations. Like, you want to have a fight on the Death Star? Sure. That's an interesting set piece. I feel like I would want to see Poe on Coruscant or let's have them freaking go to Bespin. Let's have them. The resistances, homeland, their secret base is on Bespin. You know, that nostalgia, but it's also showing the progression of time. So it's these locations that you've seen throughout the entire course of all eight movies, you're returning to them. You're seeing Coruscant under the first order. You're seeing Naboo torn up by war. You can go to Bespin again after decades.

01:07:51
Adam
And it's been, you know, it's basically a derelict, and it's just sort of, like, listing to the side, but it's all they have. That's all they can get is, like, this abandoned tibetan Tibana gas mine. What if, like, the first order to boost their troops, they go to Geonosis and restart the droid factories and have all the droids? That's how they're bringing it out. It's this, again, thematic idea is what do we do when our heroes are gone? How do we face the darkness when it's just us and the choices that you make in those moments? So, yeah, that's very broad strokes without any real structure, but that's sort of what I'm thinking of.

01:08:39
Adam
If I were to sit down and rewrite the rise of Skywalker, something that brings all the elements of every single episode into this finale, doesn't really introduce anything new unless it's new ideas or new versions of old stuff that we've seen before. And leaves, I think, the main cast, you know, I wouldn't mind killing up Poe, though. I wouldn't necessarily want to kill him off. Like, I wouldn't mind killing off certain characters, but, like, leave Rey and Kylo alive at the end, because I think there's just so many more story opportunities for them in the future, and then you can have it still be the rise of Skywalker, because, you know, maybe Kylo is, like, I'm taking the name Skywalker because, like, it's the thing that I should be, and that's the thing that I was fighting so far against.

01:09:26
Adam
I've been obsessed with my grandfather that I forgot his last act was as a Skywalker. And I'm gonna be that.

01:09:33
Sam
One of the things I like that you said. And actually, this was one of the things I was toying with, but then abandoned was. So I grew up near mother Cabrini high school, and at that particular church, there is an entombed. Well, there are pieces of mother Cabrino's preserved body first here.

01:09:54
Case
Relics.

01:09:54
Sam
Yeah. So one of the first. One of the things that I thought of was, like, don't bring Palpatine back, per se, to pull strings, but have, like, a preserved palpatine body the way, and generally the way the catholic church does it. And I know. Cause I walked past this casket many times is they put the body in an airtight seal and then in a glass seal so that you can just see it. And what they did when mother Cabrini passed was they cut her body up a little bit. So the one here in Manhattan, I think, just has her hand, like, her left hand, and, like, I think one of her legs. And then her other orders have, like, different parts of her. So she's actually spread, and I. A part of her is preserved in every single part that she's at.

01:10:43
Sam
But I thought you have this, like, tomb that has a preserved emperor, the preserved palpatine, that does have some power, but you have these people that are not necessarily. They're not Sith, and maybe they're slightly force sensitive, but they're not powerful enough, but they worship him like a little, like a cult enclave, and they. And they hold these secrets. And so, like, I think Naboo would be. Because you said that I think Naboo would be the perfect place for that, and I just wasn't sure how to place that in my brain, but that would be the perfect place for him to be, and that would be a place where they would find power, and I think that would be. I'm working that into your script that you're rewriting. Yeah.

01:11:26
Adam
I also like the. I do like the idea. Like, it's in it also bring your. What you're saying is because there's also this. I like. I do like this idea of, like, the Sith order and that they sort of, like, you know, that these. They're these believers, these people who believe in the Sith, who aren't necessarily Sith, like Sith lords.

01:11:45
Sam
Yeah.

01:11:46
Adam
Because, you know, if there's a sith lord, then that means they're, like, they are lording over someone. So I do wonder, like, what? Wouldn't that be interesting? Like, yeah, like, where the followers of Halloween, we've seen them on the Death Star in Return of the Jedi. So what if, like, the followers of the dark side come back and they're just like, we need, like, you know, what if they offer Kylo ren the power of Palpatine or something, and it's, you know, like, not like the glove of Darth Vader, but it's like, you know, his essence has, you know, is the key to unlocking whatever that can help you rule the galaxy, because then it's like, you know, it keeps Kylo's this obsession with legacy.

01:12:29
Adam
And even though he wants to destroy the past, maybe he is going there to destroy the past, but, like, so he can take it upon himself. So. Yeah, I dig that. I dig that.

01:12:37
Sam
Yeah. Case.

01:12:40
Case
Well, so there's gonna be some similar notes, because I think we have some similar complaints in general. And I have a very detailed act one, and then the rest is sort of, like, kind of feeling this out. So I'm gonna.

01:12:53
Sam
This is why he doesn't go first. Go on.

01:12:55
Case
So I'm gonna start with saying that I assume that the desire, because I read the interviews with JJ, talking about how they were, like, pouring over the footage of Carrie Fisher and trying to make it work in whatever script that they had, and I don't think they succeeded. I think that the movie that they have has very clunky dialogue, and I think they jam it all in too soon rather than spreading it out to maybe make it a little less obvious that they're just sort of cutting this whole thing together. I think that's kind of a bummer, but I get the vibe and I get the impetus, and I want to try to sort of respect that and work with the footage that we see and try to make it work a little bit better.

01:13:35
Case
I think that because they really want to have an on screen presence of Carrie Fisher and to have an arc four leia in some form, I want to try to make that work the best way possible. And I think for that to happen here, we need a refutation of the great man mythos that Star wars ultimately is perpetuating, that Star wars, by virtue of it being so entrenched in our, like, our mythology, like the original trilogy, is King Arthur, and the arc of Vader, is this combination of Uther Pendragon and Mordred. And ultimately, Kylo Ren plays a Mordred kind of role here as well. But the thing is that's all trying to put the weight of history on singular actors moving through the space. And I think that oftentimes disregards the bigger things that happen.

01:14:28
Case
You know, like, is that the point that we're trying to ultimately make here? And I think maybe. Maybe we can work with that to create a more interesting narrative for the characters, especially because Kylo Ren was a popular character who a lot of people were looking to have redeemed or be a love interest. You know, there's a lot of Reylo stans out there. So, like, how do we work kind of with that? And then to sort of work with the characters, we have to sort of build the best possible narrative for it. Adam, I really like the thoughts about Finn possibly being undercover within the first order, I think, would be really cool. That gives him an arc for this movie that I think would be particularly good at the beginning, because I think the spy is terrible.

01:15:08
Case
I think the idea of having a spy character is really bad. Hux kind of got, like, he was a little bit too much of the blood of the joke in Last Jedi, but I don't think it's ultimately unredeemable in this movie. And I think introducing pride was a terrible choice. So I would cut the spy plot completely. And noting that I kind of. My thoughts are this. Okay, open the movie. With the resistance on the run. Every time they arrive somewhere, first order shows up. Like, this is a group that's licking its wounds. Like, they are. They are stronger than they were at the end of Last Jedi, but they have not recovered to full strength yet. So we could have Poe leading a group, maybe trying to, like, make deals and so forth. And my thoughts are, like, we could get things.

01:15:48
Case
We can ultimately get to things like the light speed skip, which I think is a great sequence. I think it's a perfect idea. I think that should be an escape, and I think it should be more dramatic of an escape than just they went and talked to one guy and then tie fighter showed up. So my thought is that they go to Corellia, and what they. I want to establish is the resistance is super low on ships, so that they are trying to make deals to get some of those shipyards to start producing ships that they can then buy. And maybe it's a little black market y, like, maybe they're, like, doing some backroom deals, but that's when the first order shows up, and they have to get the fuck out of there real fast. And this is where we get the lightspeed skip.

01:16:26
Case
And my thought is that the first Order star destroyers that show up are being commanded by the knights of rent so that we can actually. If we're. If we're committed to the Knights of Ren, who are set up in the first movie and not talked at all about in the second movie. This is a good spot to have them where they command a in orbital bombardment of Corellia to just wipe out all of the, like, the industrial sections of the planet, just, like, fucking destroy it all. And my thought is, all right, so Finn, Poe, and Rose. But maybe Finn's, like, not there. Maybe it's just Poe and Rose and, like, you know, some other people, like, they barely make it away.

01:17:02
Case
And that's when Hux comes on screen and berates whichever knight of Ren, or maybe multiple knights of Ren, are commanding the star Destroyer. And we can establish that the first Order itself is spread thin, because if they have taken over so much, then they are like, their ships are in every system. Their troops are at the minimum number they have possible. They are pushing it so far, and it is all bravado that is holding this up right now, that people are scared of them and that they have this reputation of being terrifying, but they actually kind of needed those ships too, like that. This is starting to become an issue for them. And the Knights of Ren or the knight can be like, can say, take it up with the supreme leader. And this is when we cut to hux approaching Kylo Ren.

01:17:46
Case
And when he presents being like, your knights are not listening to me. They are. I am supposed to be in charge of our fleet. Wren can just not give a fuck until Kylo Ren says that they destroyed Corellia against my expressed orders. And this is when we can have, like, a quick flash to the death of Han Solo. Maybe we can get a flash to Kylo Ren picking up the dice at the end of Last Jedi and possibly get a shot of solo. Like, this comes out right after solo came out. We can easily get sets from Corellia. I think this is an easier one to sort of tie in together, but maybe not show the actual any scenes from solo. But. But regardless, we can actually, like, try to tie this into the larger mythos.

01:18:24
Case
Like, Corellia is not a new thing to introduce at this point. It's a fairly well established thing to introduce at this point. And we know that the millennium Falcon is a corellian cruiser or corellian Corvette. Right? So, like, tying into the lore of this world, and now it's gone, and I think that should matter. Like, you know, the first order has not blown up a lot of places that we care about. It's not coruscant that gets destroyed and force awakens. So, like, let's start having them be fucking scary for the things that we care about in this universe. So Hux leaves and we stay, and I'm thinking, like, when Hux is talking to Kylo Ren, he should bring up, like, a hologram showing the bombardment that's occurring at this time of Corellia.

01:19:01
Case
And so Hux leaves, Ren is just sitting there, and we get, like, a shot of him, like, of his back, and he's looking at the hologram of Corellia just being obliterated, and it's not being destroyed, like, a planet being destroyed by the Death Star. It's just straight up, like, every single city is being, like, leveled from space. The amount of power that the Death Star required is not that essential. Who cares about the difference of, like, well, the planet itself is physically gone, or no one is left alive on the planet. Kind of six of one, half dozen of the other. So we see Kylo Ren sort of, like, taking this in, and he gets up, walks through the hologram, and goes to the pedestal where he has Vader's skull.

01:19:42
Case
And, like, as he's walking, you get whispers and, like, playing in all of his ears. And as he walks up to it, you know, shift focus. So then behind him, as he's sort of, like, embracing the helmet, you've got Corellia being destroyed. And I don't know exactly what the bridge line is, but you get something to sort of. Then cut to rey training children in the ways of the force. It could be on the same kind of world that they. That the resistances base is set up in this movie. And I think Leia's looking on. I think that Leia's role here is not to be like, I'm going to teach you how to be a Jedi. Rey clearly knows a lot at this point. And I think that Leia's role should be as an advisor teaching Rey how to teach the next generation.

01:20:26
Case
I think that you could maybe even get one of the kids from the end of, or, like, the kid from the end of last Jedi just to be in that crowd. And so you're building up Rey here. And this is an area where I, Leia, looking on approvingly, is better supported by the footage we have. And then you can have, like, while they're doing this teaching. Rey looks up with horror. And maybe Leia, we get the. There's, like, one really awkward point where, like, Leia gasps and goes, no, in, like, one of the footage or some of the footage that we got. This would be a great spot for it because Corellia has been destroyed. So they, like, you cut to Rey responding also. She looks and goes, master. And then, like, cuts to Leia going, Ray.

01:21:07
Case
And then cut to Poe in a hologram giving a briefing of what just occurred to whoever is assembled at this location. And maybe you can cut around to see different resistance cells to sort of establish, like, oh, yeah, they're spread out. They're all over the place. And maybe Finn is not there. Or maybe Finn. I was thinking Finn is there. But I do like the idea that he's embedded. So maybe he's passing information on to Poe or to Rose and maybe give Rose then the exposition here where Rose explains that the, that Poe confirms that the star destroys that were responsible are the ones that belong to the knights of Ren. And, hey, guess what? This is a time where we get to explain who they are. A thing that never fucking happens.

01:21:46
Sam
Ooh, explaining things. What? That's so logical. Shut up. Go on.

01:21:52
Adam
Why would you explain things?

01:21:54
Case
I know, but so we get this explanation of who they are. We set up the stakes for what they are, for why they matter to. And then I'm thinking. I'm thinking we cut to indoor, or specifically, we cut to the indoor system, and we see a tie fighter approaching, and there are just big shards of the Death Star just kind of floating in a decaying orbit around the planet. And you see, along the orbit, there's, like, clearly impact sites around the moon. Sorry, just to. Just to be precise here, but there are impact sites where, like, things have actually ultimately touched down. And so you can sort of set up some of the specifics there.

01:22:27
Case
And I'm thinking that Kylo Ren flies through some of the wreckage and finds the throne room and then gets out of his tie fighter in a spacesuit that looks more like the. The classic looking or more like Kylo Ren from the first movie with the helmet. And maybe it looks a bit more Vader esque in some of its design because the flight suits that they wear look a lot like Vader's actual suit, like, or like those, like, storm. Like, the stormtrooper pilots. So he gets out, and he walks along the wreckage of the Death Star using magnetic boots to eventually make his way into the throne room.

01:23:03
Case
And as he's feeling with the force, and we can have, like, whispers calling to him and so forth, he, like, finds what would be some sort of electronically sealed device, and through the force, rips it open and produces what I am going to call in this a holocron. Like, it's what it is. And as it rises up, the whispers change into the laugh of Palpatine, which.

01:23:25
Sam
Is a great laugh.

01:23:25
Case
Yeah. Oh, it's delightful. Cut to hux with the knights of Ren and all the different admirals and so forth. They're discussing how they don't have the ships, they don't have the troops. And that's when Kylo Ren, clearly just arriving from that, walks in, spacesuit on, helmet on, and says, those are no longer issues, and puts down the holocron. Maybe he can take off the mask at this point, but this way, he walks in, and we get, like, that modulated voice that, like, feels so toyetic. And also like, yeah, sure. If you want to have an actor pretending to be Kylo Ren at a thing, you can be wearing this particular suit. You know, it looks, you know, it looks like the movie or like the first movie, but it's. But we have grown past the point where he needs to hide himself from everyone.

01:24:07
Case
He takes off the helmet when he's actually, like, addressing them. And he explains that this holocron has information. And my thoughts are it is a Sith holocron that has a personality engram of Palpatine and possibly all the Sith. It could be some sort of, you know, I don't think we've ever seen it.

01:24:25
Sam
A collective.

01:24:26
Case
Yeah, a collective repertoire for the Sith. Because I think the other question I have is, what is the ultimate goal here? And to take a note from Jack Kirby, I think that the approach needs to be a concept of freedom versus control. And I think that the dark side, sure, it has anger and passion and so forth, but I think that they're the ultimate goal. The reason why the republic switched from clones to troopers and so forth was to exert that control over people, to force them, mold them into this sort of rigid structure through artificial means, which is why I like the holocron being like a conveyance for it. But he had backup plans.

01:25:05
Case
One of those backup plans is a fleet that's hidden in space, that is loaded up with cryogenic suspense tubes, loaded with clones, and that this is where the first Order is going to get their fleet back. And this is sort of the break into two here because, yeah, like, it's a little bit the Thrawn trilogy. But you know what? Fuck it. I think this is a good threat. It's basically doing that, but without having to awkwardly be like, oh, well, they have to come up out of the water or the ground or whatever they're being stored on. Like, this can be clone wars era Star destroyers. Like, they should look just like revenge of the Sith era star destroyers.

01:25:39
Case
And they can even have comments about how they're so outdated and it's like, yes, but we have better guns now that we could put on these things. But now we also have the soldiers, and they will all be super loyal to you. Because my thought is, if we're going to have Kylo Ren have a redemption arc of some kind and have it matter, I think that the ultimate problem is that the dark side, by way of both the Sith and also the sort of rise of fascist power, needs to be about the unstoppable machine, like the second movie actually calls attention to war profiteers and so forth, like, building tech and so forth. Like, Kylo Ren is already starting to lose control. The knights destroyed his father's homeworld. It's starting to slip. And I want this to continue into the act two.

01:26:22
Case
The halfway part should be the Death Star fight. And I think, sure, that, like, that section could have crashed or something. I don't think that Kylo should physically be there. I think that it should be a second projection fight, because I think that's just a thing that we should accept about the nature of Jedi and or rather, like, the fighting through the force. Because while they're having this fight, that is when Hux actually observes what's going on and sees, like, weird mist and, like, weird spray and so forth coming into the chambers of Kylo Ren. He's watching this, like, kylo, like, slashing about and he can't see Rey's side of it, but shit's just happening, and it's really weird. And he's trying to understand what's going on. And then he understands at some point that they are in a fight.

01:27:00
Case
And Hux stabs Kylo Ren in the back and kills him. And in that moment, Hux sees Rey, and Rey sees Hux and Leia feeling this as. As Kylo Ren dies and, like, there's a moment of a connection between him and his mother. She then goes and then transfers the last of her life force into her son after this has all occurred. And that's then the spark that's going on here. Leia revives in this repentant Kylo Ren or Ben solo here. And it would be nice to have the Leia scene. Obviously, it doesn't exist. Probably need to have the Han scene here in some regard. Maybe as he's dying, maybe he calls out to his mother as he's fading away, and that's when she transfers it.

01:27:42
Case
But then my thought is that you can play out much of the remainder of the movie with the life force that is in Kylo being Leia's life force. And so that at the end of the movie, when Rey dies, if it plays out the same way, and Kylo Ren, or rather when Ben Solo transfers his own life force into Rey, what is actually occurring is he is transferring the spark of life from Leia. So in that regard, the actual life that Rey has is one taken from Leia. And so she actually earns the name Skywalker in a more legitimate way. And it'd just be fun to have clones. I also think, like, all right, well, I don't like the. That Finn is made into a spice runner in this.

01:28:19
Case
Because it's like, yeah, let's have the one hispanic character be a drug dealer like that. Pardon me, Poe. Yes.

01:28:24
Adam
Thank you.

01:28:24
Case
Sorry, Poe.

01:28:25
Sam
Yeah, I didn't like that either.

01:28:26
Case
I don't like that. I think that should just cut that whole thing right there. I do like the, you know, like the world War two Europe town where they're, like, hiding around and where you find Babu frick. I like all that.

01:28:38
Adam
Yeah.

01:28:38
Case
Not sure exactly how it worked that in. I don't think Carrie Russell's character should be there. It's too much. But Bob and Frick is fine, especially having to hack some information. Maybe it could be instead of c three po red, the dagger. Because the dagger. I get the idea. It's dumb. It's a protractor that sticks out, and you have to be at the exact spot at the wreckage site to see the spot.

01:29:02
Sam
It also just adds too much of the sides. Again, cut down on the side story. Find it. Have him read it. Like, or make it a book. Make it something. You know, like, it doesn't have to be that. Like, why are we. Why are we, I don't know.

01:29:19
Case
Why don't we pull data about Naboo and have it tie into, like, something that Amidala said while she knew Palpatine in his life? And that's going to fry c three po to, like, dredge up old memories that are, like, just like, you know, the fragments of files that are in his memory banks. Something to that effect.

01:29:36
Adam
Or just. Or make it r. Yeah. Who has never been. Who's never been wiped. And it's like he's been around for everything. You know, use have him be a big part of this story in some way. Like, have him have information, like, oh, I know where Palpatine's from. It's from Naboo, and, oh, hey, I'll play a scene of, like, palpatine and Amidala meeting and, like, you know, that was my grandmother or something. I don't know. It's just there's the criminal misuse of R in Force Awakens and the Rise of Skywalker has not been lost on me because I think it was used effectively as fuck in the last Jedi.

01:30:19
Adam
Because that one scene, I'll put it as we think all of our versions of the story reflect this sort of nostalgia that was apparent in the last Jedi, which was, if you're gonna have it. Feed it into the narrative like, yeah, like, you're gonna show it's nostalgia to see Yoda and Leia show up again, like the. In the message, but all feeds into Luke's arc. It all feeds into that, where I think a lot of the nostalgia we got in the current version, Rise of Skywalker, is there for the audience and not so much for the story. And I think that's what all three of us have in common, is that if we're gonna have nostalgia, have it tie into the story, have it be a part of the narrative in some fundamental way.

01:31:05
Case
Yeah. And so just my final point on this one is that I think that the holocron, especially once it's reunited with the clone ships, I think that should actually enable a scenario where palpatine, in theory, then transcends the physical limitations. I mean, he's effectively been digitized in this scenario. One of the threats of this all is that now this evil is beyond a physical body that you can even kill. And so maybe it's a scenario where, like, the ship, this fleet, can't leave this system, otherwise, it can then spread. And I realize it's a little bit of like the ultron scenario that's a little bit of like a matrixy kind of like we're there.

01:31:42
Case
But I think that if we actually want to have it and we can make a statement about the rigidity and artificiality evil, as opposed to what is more of a concept of freedom and good that exists in the world with the light side, the balance that's required is that too much good without the steel to preserve it, is going to be vulnerable to evil and obviously evil. So it might be like a might versus. Right. Jedis, who are complete pacifists, are susceptible to outside threats, so they have to engage in what is theoretically evil acts, such as killing their enemies in the name of protection. But likewise, evil is, in this scenario, going way too far into a realm of turning everything into just programmed automatons and working in that direction.

01:32:36
Case
So in the same way, instead of clones, it could have been like all the different robot ships. You could do a whole collection of all of them if you really wanted to. Because, again, this is the end of the movie. It might as well be a victory lap where we show all of our threats. And I love now your thought with Finn being embedded, because then he could actually lead a rebellion of the stormtroopers against the clone troopers. And then that way, you get to Janna and those kind of characters without it necessarily having to be like, oh, no, we're just you. But I'm a girl. You could actually have it happen inside in universe, which would give him an arc in it. And I think that Finn, and I apologize for earlier saying Finn Poe, bah, bah.

01:33:18
Case
But Finn actually has the most compelling story. I mean, he has the most compelling story of this entire trilogy, like the stormtrooper who turned good. And I think that Finn giving the speech, however it is to unite the galaxy against the first order, is the one that makes sense, because he is the person who has been the hurt most by them. He is the person who has the most reason to be afraid of them. You know, he is scared of them for so much of the first two movies, because all hope has been completely wiped out of him. And if at the end of this movie, it is his, like, proclamation of hope that inspires people, I think that's a really good message right there. And to get a bit lefty here, I think the concept of collective action would be really strong here.

01:34:04
Case
Like, it's not about one person just being better with a sword, that it should be about us as a people rising up, which they do try to do. But it's also, you know, it's also Rey holding both her. Both Luke's original lightsaber. We never find out what happens to a second lightsaber and Leia's lightsaber. And one thing I forgot to mention is that I wouldn't have Rey have a lightsaber for the majority of this movie. Movie. I would have her have something like the Stormtrooper Tomfa stick that we see Finn use a couple of times, and then the first one, some kind of weapons that can counter a lightsaber. But she should be in the process of making it. We have never gotten to see that on screen in one of the canon films.

01:34:48
Case
And I would very much like to see the process of making the lightsaber, the thing that happens between Empire and Jedi, where it's like, oh, you've made a new lightsaber. It's so cool. I'd like to get that on screen and build it into her staff, like we all wanted. I don't know why they didn't do that.

01:35:02
Sam
Like, because they didn't have enough time. They barely had time for the crap they were selling us in this one.

01:35:08
Case
I know this would be so much better, though, and especially because it ends with it, like, have. I mean, maybe she's using Luke's for a little bit, like, because, like, some of the Leia footage had her holding Luke's lightsaber. So they're kind of stuck with it. Although, that said, they could always be working on it. Like, she could, you know, she could hand it off and they could cg it into a different looking lightsaber very easily and have that be the final part that she has to put together or something. And that happens before she goes off and faces Kylo Ren for the second fight. So maybe that makes the first fight where she somehow gets into his room and he's on the planet. Maybe she's not using a lightsaber in that scenario.

01:35:42
Sam
Yeah, I mean, it would have been cool, but I think I kind of understand why they would decide not to put that and instead put a training montage since, like, unfortunately, there was a lot of talk about how she just shouldn't be able to do any of those things. And let's be honest, that's probably why they put that scene in, is just to shut people on the Internet up, to be like, look, she's training.

01:36:06
Adam
It's like one of those.

01:36:07
Sam
She's getting stronger.

01:36:08
Adam
Yeah.

01:36:09
Sam
You know, so I don't mind. Yeah, I don't mind the training at all. Like, honestly, like, there's a lot to be said about just how Rey, in general, her character, being a girl, has been treated unkindly, you know, and that, unfortunately, I feel like there's a lot of things that the writers tried to do in order to kind of, like, compensate for those things. I mean, like, in some ways, she's one possibly the strongest jedi we've seen on screen. I mean, she force heals. She's got lightning. She's like. Like, they are selling her hard. I mean, like, they're like, they are selling her hard, and they, you know, true to just society girls just gotta work harder to break that ceiling, and that's part of it. And so I think you don't get a scene like that because it is kind of seemingly.

01:37:07
Sam
I mean, it's cool to me, it's cool to you, but seemingly, it's mundane to, like, a regular person who's just gonna walk off the street, who's like, oh, now she's just putting together a light sword or whatever. What about her training? How does she even know how to flip with it? You know? Like, I don't know. So I think that it's a good idea, but I do understand why a writer would decide to instead choose her, kind of running an obstacle course, training for the future with, like, Leia watching her do so, because one of the things that you heard, like, after the first movie, and even after the second movie is like, well, how does she even know how to do that? How does she know how to fly a plane? How does she know how to do this?

01:37:52
Sam
How does she know how to do that? But we totally accept that all the other male protagonists that come before can automatically do those things. I mean, did Luke ever leave? I mean, he's just. He never left that planet. That he's just. I don't know.

01:38:08
Adam
Yeah. With Luke, I've always been sort of amazed. Like, everyone's okay with the fact that he's like, oh, I'm a really great pilot. He's a really great pilot. I'm a really great pilot. And then, like, the first time, he gets an. He's never flown outside anything, and he gets into an x wing with zero training and gets a bullseye the first time. And everyone accepts that because, well, he said he was a good pilot. Like, look, I said, I can tell you that I'm a really great runner. I don't run. I. Like, I can't run more than, like, a ten minute mile. Like, I run for shit. You know? It's like, you could say anything, but because you have Ray say we've. Like, we need a pilot. You've got one. And she says, you.

01:38:48
Adam
And then he's like, I'm flown around the planet, but I've never left. I've never left the planet before. Like, that's not. That's basically the same thing that Luke did. Yeah, and then you have. My favorite is just like, you know, every. I've seen this online a lot more where people are like, well. Like, I'm like, well, okay, fine, but where did Luke learn how to do a force pull? And they're like, well, Obi wan taught him over the. Like, he. But he was dead. He's like, well, no, he was. As a force ghost. I'm like, no, what?

01:39:21
Case
That is not supported by the text.

01:39:24
Adam
Or they're like, I'm like, okay, great. So then you're fine. Then. Then how does he build. Learn to build a lightsaber? And they're like, well, he went back to fucking Yoda in Dagobah for that period of time. Like, it's no, like, not. Again. Not supported by the text. He clearly never went back until. Until this movie. Like, what do you. They can find? Like, the fact that they can, like, justify anything that Luke does, but, like, the fact that Rey has just. Is slightly stronger because of whatever reason. And that's why I like the Forrest diet answers those issues. Like, it's just stupid.

01:40:07
Sam
Yeah.

01:40:07
Adam
So tired.

01:40:09
Case
So, on that note, I would say I would not do Rey being a palpatine. I don't think that. That. I think that narratively hurts her. I think. I think, unfortunately, and I don't know who suggested the idea, but unfortunately, it reads poorly when it's someone like JJ Abrams creating the movie, who is, you know, the son of a producer and has, like, worked in Hollywood since he was 16. You know, like, it feels like someone who's like, yep. Yeah. If you. If you got the right blood, which is not what we should ultimately be trying to ascribe. We should be saying, like, sure, if you have these benefits, you're in a better position. That is the scenario for Kylo Ren to have Rey be a worthy rival for him. Coming from literally nothing, I think, is a much stronger statement.

01:40:50
Sam
Agreed.

01:40:51
Case
Also doesn't require us to awkwardly contradict everything from the previous movie, so just roll with it. And then, you know, Leia's teaching her a little bit, and Lei. And then she's passing on. She's also teaching the young what she knows so far. She's learning both how to do new stuff, but then also learning how to convey information to people. And I think that's an important part of the teaching process there. Like Luke, this used to be a thing in. In the extended universe. Luke arguably never really learned that much about the Jedi. He theoretically only learned from Yoda and Ben enough for them to end the threat of Darth Vader and Palpatine.

01:41:29
Case
So there was a whole thing about how Jason Solo was, like, maybe he never learned enough about the broader spiritual aspects because he was kind of purpose trained for this very dark time that he was in the. And I'm not saying necessarily go that hardcore on it, but I think it would be nice to show growth for the character by way of that. And again, trying to make some of that Leia footage work, and I think her looking on, and you can have some moments, like, being like, oh, the kids are almost ready for things. R two doesn't think that they're quite up to snuff, or bb eight doesn't snuff yet. And then she could be like, never underestimate a droid, or however you want to fit in those awkward lines.

01:42:09
Case
You could do some of that there and have Leia come off as the high master teaching. Then this. This just knight. And then there. There's all these padawans who are training.

01:42:19
Adam
Yeah.

01:42:20
Case
Also, I feel like Rey should have worn different clothes or at the very least, different colors. But. But, yeah, definitely should have looked a little better. But, you know, that's not. That's not the biggest gripe in the. In the world, but it's just like, that would have been nice. Like, have a different outfit, but they already made all the toys, but we can sell actions.

01:42:39
Sam
They still answer to the mouse.

01:42:41
Case
You can have all kinds of toy variants. It's great.

01:42:44
Sam
Yeah, no, I hear you, Case, and I agree with you on most of stuff. I really like the idea of her training the next generation, and I absolutely 1000 agree with both of you that she should have remained as no one, not related to anyone, blazing her own trail. And especially because I think that it was actually a really lovely, hopeful moment with that child at the end of the last Jedi that there was this possibility. Because that's the hope, right. Ultimately, yes. Luke was battle tested, and he did what he needed to do to end the dark times that he was facing. Right. But he also failed to kind of create a new Jedi order, if you believe in the extended universe and a little bit in the last Jedi.

01:43:41
Adam
Right.

01:43:41
Sam
That's part of it. He kind of failed in this mission. And so to have her as no one come forward and start succeeding where he could not, like, under the loving gaze of the general and her wonderful assistant R, because I would totally throw him in there because imagine adorable little scenes of him and young little Jedi is training. That'd be so cute. You know, I love everything cute, and that would be great. I think that would be fantastic. I'm in. I'm gonna throw some money at you. Make it. I'm joking. I can't afford it.

01:44:18
Case
No one has enough money to make that nowadays. But, yeah, I think we all sort of hit on points that we really like and want to. All of these are stronger than what ultimately was put on screen. Like, what was put on screen felt rushed and felt like that they had a lot of boxes to check off and didn't really feel like they needed to spend the time making you care about why were checking off those boxes. And I just think having any sort of point where you're trying to say we're doing something different or finalizing ideas that had been expressed but not necessarily capitalized on before would be great. You know, having Ren be the bad guy makes perfect sense for this trilogy.

01:45:05
Case
Having Ren not being able to control the first order and the first order is now growing like a virus out there in space. Also a good way to, like, work with this trilogy and also sort of play on earlier stuff. I don't know. I think these all work a lot better. And I think. I think I've expressed a lot of my Star wars thoughts on scruffy nerf herders. Adam, you've got your own Star wars stuff that you're expressing ideas on. So actually, I feel good about what we just talked about. Adam, why don't you talk about what you've got going on that you can talk about?

01:45:37
Adam
Well, I've got a new podcast coming out on November 5. It's the green Lama audio drama. He is a buddhist superhero from the 1940s that my father collected. I am the licensed author behind him. It's a continuation of the novels that I've been writing for over a decade. It's sort of the next chapter, even though the sort of middle chapter that I'm writing right now hasn't come out yet. So there might be some spoilers about the finale of my novel trilogy, but I kept it vague. So if you're looking for it, you'll find you won't necessarily know what happened, but you know, something happened. It's really exciting. The cast is amazing. The sound design is amazing. The just everything has come together in a way that I never expected, and the music is just phenomenal.

01:46:23
Adam
I have a couple of other projects that I'm working on that I really can't discuss just yet for a host of reasons. I am working my next green llama novel. I am also working my day job at Conde Nast. Have you watched things on Vanity Fair? There's a good chance I probably produced them, some stuff at Wired, some stuff at arse Technica, but a lot of it mostly has been Vanity Fair as of late. Yeah, those are the things I can talk about. Also, I want to do add, you can subscribe to my podcast at radio room on your favorite podcast aggregator or in a couple of weeks to the green llama separately. But yeah, radio room, that's where you'll be able to hear it.

01:47:02
Sam
Cool.

01:47:03
Case
And for when the things you can't talk about yet come out, where can they find you online, where you'll be talking about it then?

01:47:09
Adam
You can find me online mostly on Twitter at Adam Lance Garcia. Or you can find me on Instagram at Adam Lance Garcia. Really? Just type in Adam Lance Garcia. And yeah, you'll probably find me that. Or you might find Adam L. Garcia in Kansas who sometimes signs me up for a red box.

01:47:29
Case
Well, you can find the podcast at another pass. You can find me on Twitter hazakin sam. Where can they find you?

01:47:36
Sam
They can find me here or on our discord and nowhere else. Because I am just a figment. I'm just a force ghost. In case is reality.

01:47:46
Case
Yes. You're just a voice coming, being projected by some sort of dark lord making me think that I have a friend.

01:47:52
Sam
Isn't that how it always works with the Dryad?

01:47:54
Case
Well, if you would like evidence that Sam is not a force ghost subtly manipulating me into weird positions, she might actually still be doing that part. You can head on over to certainpov.com, where you can find more episodes of this show. You can find lots of great shows that we're putting on the network shows like our recently added fables and Reflections, which is a wonderful show discussing the works of Neil Gaiman. Check that out. But you can also there find a link to our discord server. We're having this call on Discord right now, but you can come interact with us directly, get sneak peeks, and occasionally we'll share pictures of our cosplay days, which were talking about a lot before we started recording. So, yeah, check out certainpov.com. Come find our discord. We're having a lot of fun there, so come join us.

01:48:35
Case
But while we wait for you to come join us, Sam, what have we got in the works?

01:48:42
Sam
Well, next time we'll be talking about Highlander two, the quickening. But if you enjoyed this until then, pass it on.

01:48:55
Adam
Thanks for listening to certain point of views. Another pass podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com dot.

01:49:09
Sam
Another pass is a certain POV production. Our hosts are Sam Alicia and case Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm. Our logo and episode art is by case Aiken. Our intro theme is by Vin Macri, and our outro theme is by Matt Brogan.

01:49:25
Case
All right, so before we get started completely, I just want to figure out where our expectations are in terms of talking about this trilogy as a whole, which is that I was lukewarm about the Force Awakens, and I actually really liked the Last Jedi, and then this almost killed my fandom of Star wars.

01:49:44
Sam
Wow, that's a very strong feeling. I was okay with the Force Awakens. I was like, okay, it's kind of a repeat, but I guess rebooting loved the Last Jedi. And I think that at some point in the middle of this movie, I thought, fuck it, I'm just gonna enjoy this. I'm not gonna think logically. So I actually enjoyed this in theater because I just decided I chose to. I made a decision that it was just. I was just gonna enjoy it, and. Yeah. And so I did. I enjoyed it. I was like, fuck it. They're all bad. They're all good, and they're all bad, and I'm just gonna enjoy it.

01:50:31
Adam
For me, I really love the Force Awakens because I just love the characters. Even though it was a rehash, you're just like, oh, wow. New Star wars and the Last Jedi was, like, sort of a revelation to me because it did everything I didn't want it to do, like kill Luke, but it did it in such an amazing way. And I think it understands Star wars in a truly fundamental way that I think a lot of fans don't seem to understand Star wars.

01:50:59
Sam
I agree.

01:51:00
Adam
Yeah. And then rise of Skywalker. Yes. Thank you. I got the Sam stamp. But the other thing that I. With Rise of Skywalker, there are ideas in it that I like. I feel like there are shining moments. I'm like, that's cool, Star War. But it's surrounded by just a shit story that I'm just like, I can enjoy moments. I can be like, yeah, this is cool. And that looks nice, but I just. I think that there's. I'll put it very briefly, and I might explain this later, but Force Awakens mission possible three and Star Trek. All those films benefit from the fact that they're soft or sort of basically semi firm reboots. Force Wiggins uses the 30 years. Mission impossible three just gives itself a time jump and a new mission. And Star Trek zero nine is a new universe.

01:51:59
Adam
He picks and chooses what he likes and gets to start over. Rise the Skywalker. He couldn't do that. He has to learn. He was. He's not good at yes, ending.

01:52:09
Sam
So, yeah, I think. I think my biggest issue with this, and again, I said, fuck it. I'm going to enjoy it. So I made it so. But my biggest issue was, as I walked out with kind of slightly maniacal laughter at my best friend, I said, you know, the biggest problem is he wanted to please everyone. He wanted to make everyone happy by the end. And that is the biggest problem, because you just. You can't. You have to decide that it's okay for people to disagree with the choices you make when you have to make choices. Do you ship? Like, do you ship Ray and Finn? Oh, don't worry. There's a moment where he almost says something, but you don't know what he said. And we may not go in that direction ever. We may not even tell you what that is.

01:52:55
Sam
But don't worry. It's kind of in there, so if you want to write some headcanon about it, there you go. Were you like, all about Ben and Ray? Kylo and Ray? It's good. It's fine. Yeah, they're going to do it. But don't worry if you're not, because you're not with this, because he's a toxic fuck boy. Don't worry. We're going to kill him. So they're not going to stay together. So you're happy. They're happy. They're trying to please everyone. And then at the end, which, honestly, I've already told case about how much I love all the cute characters, so bring it on. But they brought up every cute character at the end, and I was like, all right, yeah, shout out. Shout out to some mewoks. Let's do this. Like, let's. Let's see all the cute characters. And it literally was just like.

01:53:38
Sam
And now rounding the bases, every cute character you have ever seen for this finale.

01:53:45
Adam
But also, it's. Yeah, but to your point, it was also, like, just from the original trilogy that was like my. Yeah, I'm sorry I stepped on your toes.

01:53:53
Sam
No, no. But it's true. But, like, there's. It's like, fan callbacks just for the sake of, like, let's. Okay, this is the last one. Let's just give everyone exactly everything they wanted. Even though this is one of the most polarized fandoms and slightly toxic fandoms out there, let's just try to please everybody, right? And that means that the movie itself turns into a hodgepodge of almost directionalist garbage because it, you know, it's like, there's some really fun scenes. I'm actually glad you brought this because this is perfect for our podcast, right? It's always a movie with some decent bones and things that deserve to be saved and, like, actually look really cool. Like, I rewatched this and I was like, you know, these fight scenes are actually fairly dynamic. They look really good. Hey there, screen beans. Have you heard about screen snark, Rachel.

01:54:53
Adam
This is an ad break. They aren't screen beans until they listen to the show.

01:54:57
Sam
Fine. Potential screen beans. You like movies and tv shows, right?

01:55:02
Adam
I mean, who doesn't? Screen snark is a casual conversation about the movies and television shows that are shaping us as we live our everyday lives.

01:55:09
Sam
That's right, Matt. We have a chat with at least one incredible guest every episode, hailing from all walks. We've interviewed chefs, writers, costumers, musicians, yoga teachers, comedians, burlesque dancers, folks in the.

01:55:22
Case
Film and tv industry, and more.

01:55:24
Adam
We'd be delighted for you to join us every other Monday on the certain.

01:55:27
Sam
POV podcast network or wherever you get your podcasts, fresh and tasty off the presses.

01:55:32
Adam
What? That's no, that's not.

01:55:35
Sam
Can I call them screen beans now? Fine, screensh.

01:55:44
Adam
So tune in and we'll see you.

01:55:46
Case
At the movies or on a couch.

01:55:48
Sam
Somewhere, because you're all scream beans now.

01:55:52
Adam
You will be mine.

01:55:57
Case
Cpov certainpov.com.