Another Pass at Another Pass at Star Trek (2009)

Case and Sam are looking back at the earliest episodes of the show! Check out their thoughts on the third episode when Case sat down with Paul Sieber and chatted about the 2009 Star Trek reboot!

Originally aired May 11 2017

Review aired MARCH 26, 2021

Music by Vin Macri and Matt Brogan

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Transcript

(Subject to Error)

00:11
Case Aiken
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another pass at another pass podcast. I'm case aiken, and as I have been for the last couple of years, I am joined by Sam Alicea.

00:21
Sam Alicea
Hi.

00:22
Case Aiken
So, Sam, we are continuing our little retrospective into the origins of the show.

00:27
Sam Alicea
Oh, we are. Yeah, we are.

00:30
Case Aiken
And this is an episode that I really was glad to get to. I was really excited for. Another pass really came up right as I was finishing up a wave of doing starship Farrogate, which was the Star Trek fan film series that I had been working on. So I wanted to get the people I had been working with on talking about Star Trek movies that I knew they would have a lot to talk about. So today we are looking back on Star Trek nine.

00:53
Sam Alicea
Yeah. And can I just say, I'm going to preface this for anyone listening. If you enjoyed Star Trek nine, Paul is not. He's not with you?

01:04
Paul Sieber
No.

01:06
Sam Alicea
I hope you were not triggered by that. I wasn't. I had kind of prepared myself going in and I listened.

01:13
Paul Sieber
I was.

01:13
Sam Alicea
Wow. Wow, he hated this. With the fire of a thousand sons.

01:20
Case Aiken
Yeah. And I knew that going into this episode.

01:23
Paul Sieber
Yeah.

01:23
Case Aiken
So as you mentioned, so it's Paul Seber, who was the writer for a lot of the Starship Farrogate stuff, that was my guest for this episode. And Paul is great. I love him. He definitely likes to get his opinions out there about a project. We have driven down multiple times to Kingsland, Georgia together, which is about a twelve hour drive. And it's a really dense conversation that whole way. Now, some of it is repeated because we'll just kind of circle around because Paul, like me, will hit an idea and kind of come back to it later and a few times. But it's always a really engaging conversation, which is why I really wanted to have him on.

01:58
Sam Alicea
No, I think you can hear the passion for both of you. I think that we have a general rule, right, we try to keep it as positive as we can. So I think if you're going back and listening to this and you've only listened to us in the last couple of years, just know that wasn't a rule yet. And generally we complain a little bit. We try to so highlight great things.

02:25
Case Aiken
Right.

02:25
Sam Alicea
And I think some of this that people are about to listen to becomes case being like, true counterpoint, interesting. And case tries to bring it back, but it's, again, very early in the whole zeitgeist, like the creation of this show and what it's going to be. And so I think I was like, oh, paul rip, he's got opinions and they're not all wrong, guys. They're not all wrong. But it's just said with such authority and force. So just a warning at the top for anyone and anyone who liked this film.

03:01
Case Aiken
Yeah, I always went with the goal of saying, we're not going to be too angry. I really didn't want this to be a bitch fest. I wanted it to be a positive conversation. But it was so new. I wasn't quite used to really laying out the structure of we are trying to be explicitly positive about a work, even if we are pointing out its flaws. And that was the one area where I wish I had laid that out a little bit more. And I also was just kind of new. So when Paul got on a tear, it was hard for me because I was just new to hosting to be like, okay, well, I'm going to cut him off because I wasn't quite used to those kind of things.

03:38
Case Aiken
Not that I want to cut people off, but just guiding it was just something that was new to me in conversation.

03:44
Sam Alicea
Right. Yeah. Just leading it in a new direction. And I will say there are a couple of sound weird things, but it's not like horrible.

03:55
Case Aiken
Yeah.

03:55
Case Aiken
So this one, there is some audio issues. We will get better, but we're going to get worse before we do. This one's not the worst of them. And that's coming up, not the next episode because when I actually looked at the order, but it's coming pretty close. But yeah, we're still getting used to the audio equipment. And there was a thing I forgot to mention with the previous time. So the original Tascam I had to record with had this issue where it would glitch after like 20 ish minutes of recording. And so we would have to pause and come back to it. And we actually lost a chunk because I didn't know about that. So we lost around close to our end stuff.

04:34
Case Aiken
We had gotten pretty far into it all, but we had gone just a little bit past what I thought was a safe zone for it. And we'd lost that chunk of audio where it just became corrupted. So you can really tell, especially because we had a hard out. So when we got the conclusion together really quickly. But it's going to be pretty abrupt at the very end. Yeah, but with that, I think that there's a lot of really good points brought up. I think Paul articulates himself very well and makes very strong points for how to redo it.

05:03
Sam Alicea
Yeah, I agree.

05:04
Case Aiken
But if you are a bigger fan of Star Trek Nine this is going to be a bit more negative, and I share a lot of those views, and I talk about this here. There's a lot of things that aren't game breakers for me, with nine specifically. That would be when we eventually get to Star Trek into darkness. But for Paul, he's already lost it with this series.

05:24
Sam Alicea
Yeah, he's already so done, but I guess we should let him speak for himself and then come back and talk about it.

05:32
Case Aiken
Yeah, he's a very intelligent guy and a great writer and yeah. Let's listen to the third episode of another pass.

05:39
Sam Alicea
Woohoo.

05:44
Paul Sieber
Welcome to certain point of views. Another pass podcast. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com.

05:56
Case Aiken
Thanks guys for tuning in to another pass podcast. I'm case Aiken, and today I'm by Paul Sieber.

06:01
Paul Sieber
Hello.

06:02
Case Aiken
Now, Paul, you and I have known each other for several years working on Star Trek related projects. Why don't you give a little background about some of the stuff you've done?

06:11
Paul Sieber
I got back into film work about ten years ago, doing some set building for James Collie, Star Trek new voyages. Worked as an extra on that set, and then started working with John Broughton when he created Starship Farragut, which is another fan series. I've written four episodes of Farragut. I directed two, and I've acted in several when I did provided voice work for Star Trek, Fargate, the animated series. I've also done voice work for a couple other fan related Trek animated series and contributed in other ways to a couple of other Star Trek fan animated series. And I'm also a professional actor. I've been in movies like the recently released you're effing Dead and different films like Henchman's War the Bride, for which I got my first acting nomination. Yay for me.

07:05
Case Aiken
Oh, that's fantastic.

07:06
Paul Sieber
Yeah. And a few other films like that. I've got about 60 some films so.

07:11
Case Aiken
Far, so it's fair to say both that you know movies, but especially you know, Star Trek.

07:16
Paul Sieber
Well, we're sitting here in my man cave. As you can see, we are completely surrounded by movie posters, cinema stuff, the biggest screen television I could possibly get without being a projector, movie theater seats. I've got a popcorn machine and Star.

07:30
Case Aiken
Trek phasers and models.

07:34
Paul Sieber
The phaser collection actually is pretty neat because those were all gifts from different Star Trek projects, mostly from John Broughton and Mike Bednar at the phaser two rifle that we did, that we created.

07:44
Case Aiken
Oh, yeah, it's very cool.

07:45
Paul Sieber
I got a Brad Nelson phaser for the proposed reboot Star Trek series. It was going to happen before the Star Trek motion picture came out. They had redesigned the phaser, but I got Brad Nelson done it. Mike Bednard detailed one of those. I have a prop phaser, which is a vacuum form that you can fall on and break. And I've got a hero phaser.

08:03
Case Aiken
Oh, wow.

08:04
Paul Sieber
Nice gifts.

08:05
Case Aiken
Yeah, no, I am so jealous of this man cave right now. And that's actually one of the reasons why I wanted to record down here while we are talking today about Star Trek, the 2009 reboot of the franchise. And I especially wanted to talk to you about it because you and I have very different opinions of this movie, but I think very similar reasons for our opinions. So the idea of the series is to do movies that could be good or could be bad, but definitely could be great some way, or could be at least a lot better. And you and I have very different thoughts about where this movie falls on that spectrum, but I think for similar reasons. I like this movie. I think it's a good movie.

08:43
Case Aiken
I think it's exciting, it moves, it introduces the characters, at least a few of them really well, and was a good start of the series. I think the series as a whole has been a mixed bag. But I thought, while it's not a perfect movie, there's a lot of logical fallacies. I thought it was overall worth my time and an enjoyable project.

09:02
Paul Sieber
Yeah.

09:03
Case Aiken
Your thoughts?

09:05
Paul Sieber
I thought, now, I have to be very clear. I'm not against other people playing these characters. I'm not one of those people that's not out for a reboot. But I have one very strong belief when you create something based on an existing property, and I think I've said this to you before, but I'll say it again for the audience. If you're going to create something from an existing property, say a television show book, remaking another movie, a comic book, if it's based on something else, the first thing the writer creators should do is actually watch the source material, because if they don't watch or read the source material, they may miss the entire point of what it was. And that's what happened with the writers on 2009 Star Trek. They missed the point of what Star Trek was, and they got lazy.

09:48
Paul Sieber
And I think the biggest problem with the film was poor writing. It wasn't reinventing the characters. I don't have a problem. I like Star Trek. New voyages, the people they have playing Kirk's Bach McCoy, I like Star Trek continues. People they have playing Kirk's Bach, McCoy. Other people can play these characters, as far as I'm concerned. It's like any other kind of literary character. How many people play James Bond? They can all play James. They can all give it their own twist. Other people can play Kirk. I don't care. I thought the casting was good, but the writing is where the entire thing fell apart. I mean, it just fell apart.

10:21
Case Aiken
The writing, I don't fully disagree, and I think we probably share a lot of the same complaints. It's just for me, they don't ruin the movie, but for you, I think it pushes it too far.

10:32
Paul Sieber
Well, I mean, some of the main premises, if you're going to reboot the characters, just do it. Just reboot them. This reboot. But then trying to tie it to the old universe thing to me was trying to say like, yeah, I'm going to salute you old Star Trek fans. At the same time, I'm going to say f you and not give you Star Trek.

10:51
Case Aiken
Okay, so you have a problem with that?

10:52
Paul Sieber
I have a problem with that whole.

10:53
Case Aiken
Actually, I like the time rather.

10:55
Paul Sieber
They just started it from scratch. For instance, look at Battlestar Galactica when they started the new series. Did it mention anything about the old?

11:03
Case Aiken
I mean, it's a totally new thing.

11:05
Paul Sieber
Totally new thing. Was there a Cadandra Dama? Was there a Starbucks? Was there an Apollo? Yeah. Okay. Why didn't you just do that? They have to start with this whole thing. I have to reboot that universe, but I have to tie it in the old one. I didn't think you needed to do that. On top of that, there was that horrendous thing about what they were like as children. I really don't care. The thing that made the Star wars prequels movies not work for me was I didn't give a damn what Anakin Squylacher was like when he was nine. I really don't care that Kirk was some smart ass kid when he was nine years old and stole his uncle's car. That really makes no sense. We all know the Spock story. He was little.

11:41
Paul Sieber
They didn't like him because he wasn't a Hulk folk. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care about those characters till they're on.

11:47
Case Aiken
But do those scenes really upset you to see them at like, I thought the Spock scene was like, well, it's fine to see it. And part of the reason was they can set up the mom and have that sort of pathos later when she dies, as opposed to just being a new character.

12:04
Paul Sieber
How do didn't do anything to make us know more about the character. Nothing. It really didn't. It didn't add to Spock's character to see when he was nine. It didn't add to Kirk's character to see when he stole the car. You could have still had him be the bad boy when you had him joining the Academy in the beginning of the movie. That didn't add to the character at all. They were useless scenes we just threw in to say, hey, what were they like as kids? It's like JJ Abrams had watched Star wars and said, gee, we had to know about Anakin Skywalker. He was nine. I guess we have to know about these people when they were nine. They were trying to Star wars it with that. And I just don't care.

12:36
Paul Sieber
The thing is, I don't care about those characters till they're on that ship. As the crew of the Enterprise, they could have started the movie with them just beginning the five year mission. They could have started it within the middle of the five year mission. I don't care. But I didn't want to see any of it till they were on that ship, because up to that point, it's just a waste of time. How they all met don't care. Okay. I wanted Star Trek. When the series started, they were on the ship. Did they have an episode where they first all came onto the ship and shook hands? One of the most boring episodes in next generation was encountered.

13:06
Case Aiken
Farpoint. Yeah.

13:08
Paul Sieber
Why? Because they had introduced all these people. Hi, how you doing? Welcome aboard a ship. Hi, how are you doing? Welcome aboard a ship. Hi, how are you doing? Welcome aboard.

13:14
Case Aiken
Also wanted to introduce the ship.

13:16
Paul Sieber
It's like, that's enough. They could have started it in the middle of a mission like the original.

13:20
Case Aiken
Series did, go in media rest and then just go from there.

13:23
Paul Sieber
And that was how we learned these people. We learned who they were from them doing something, not from a hi, how are you? Welcome aboard. For an hour.

13:31
Case Aiken
Okay, now, I think the structure worked fine for me, but it felt very much like Star wars as a structure point. Not just not the prequels, but the original Star wars movie.

13:44
Paul Sieber
It felt very Star wars. It did not feel Trek like I said. It would have felt more like Trek had they started the story, like, with them during a Star Trek pilot. Both pilots, the one with pike and the one with Kirk, both pilots for Star Trek didn't start with an intro. Who were these people? And welcome aboard the ship. They started in the middle of a mission. We're on our way doing this. And that was how we got to know who they were. If you watch the menagerie or the cage, whichever version. Whichever version, you know who pike is. By the end of that story, they have to introduce him. Like, hi, I'm Captain pike. Welcome board the ship. Tell me about yourself. Here's a little thing on the screen telling me who you are.

14:25
Paul Sieber
I mean, really, they didn't have to do any of that. The conversations with the characters in the episode defined pike. Same thing with Kirk. His whole thing with Gary Mitchell that defined who Kirk was in that episode without us having to go back and say, here's a welcome aboard. The fact that he had some issues with Spock because they hadn't been together that long yet. I know you've been on this ship for a while, Mr. Spock, but. Okay, so now we know Spock was there with the previous captain. Boom. These things were established without an intro. How you doing? Welcome aboard. For the first time thing. And then we get into the silliness with how the characters got in their roles. Kirk never finished school, and now he's the captain.

15:04
Case Aiken
Yeah, I would generally agree with this.

15:06
Paul Sieber
Let's just go to one thing on that. Let's say you're Sulu. In the 2009 movie, you graduated the top of your class in the academy, right? Four years. You graduate top of your class?

15:18
Case Aiken
Possibly.

15:18
Case Aiken
I think they weren't super clear about that one.

15:20
Paul Sieber
They were pretty clear.

15:21
Case Aiken
Well, because it seemed that they were supplementing or loading up the ship with cadets. So it was possible because, for example, Bones immediately was in the medical bay, that he and everyone on the ship were cadets who were just like seniors or top ranking students. They may not have graduated.

15:37
Paul Sieber
Don't make sense.

15:38
Case Aiken
None of it.

15:38
Paul Sieber
Sulu was supposed to actually. This was not his rookie mission. He was a lieutenant already. Not an ensign. Anyone right out of the academy would have been an ensign.

15:45
Case Aiken
This is true.

15:46
Paul Sieber
Sulu was already a lieutenant, but it.

15:48
Case Aiken
Appeared that everyone had ranks.

15:49
Paul Sieber
They talked about the fact. Well, that's my point.

15:51
Case Aiken
Yeah, no, it doesn't make sense.

15:53
Paul Sieber
For the example. So you're su. You graduate near the top of your class, you rise to the rank of lieutenant in a very short amount of time. So you've been doing this job for a while. Here's a guy who never finished school, and he just gets made your captain. If you're Sulu, you give Starfleet the finger. Go join the merchant marines. It doesn't work.

16:11
Case Aiken
Okay.

16:11
Paul Sieber
And then for him to suddenly have loyalty to this guy who never paid the dues. No, I'm not buying that. See, that's the thing. I'm not buying just he's captain because somebody just decided to give it to him at the.

16:24
Case Aiken
I mean, this doesn't work. Like red letter media did a bit covering it where they pointed out that they seem to sort of intensify the military aspect of Starfleet. And I think this is true for all Star Trek movies. They always make it way more of a military organization. And they use terminology that sounds much more like common man grunt stuff. Like, if you think about. It's like, enlist in Starfleet. It makes it seem like everyone is an enlisted man and fairly blue collar until all of a sudden they're in these positions of authority. And this movie, I think, does the worst job of it because it's sort of the same way for all the others. They make it much more like we're a military organization as opposed to an exploration organization or a science organization.

17:07
Case Aiken
We've got the same people who are like, your basic guards are going into the same classes and doing everything else with the guy who's the captain, which. That's crazy. It's not how it plays out in any actual vessel, and it's not how it played out in the show. We have characters like Miles O'Brien on Next Gen and Deep Space Nine who was an enlisted man and got as far as you can get as an enlisted man. Like, you can be a high ranking person, but you're not going to be the person who's in charge of everything. And the only reason that you're high ranking is because you have, like, specialty in a particular location. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

17:40
Paul Sieber
See, the rankings thing with me, to me, that was just annoying, but that was just the start.

17:45
Case Aiken
So you're basically saying, like, this would better to start with them.

17:49
Paul Sieber
On.

17:50
Case Aiken
The ship because then you can bypass a lot of the Academy stuff. Even though clearly they wanted to show the kobayashi Maru, they wanted to show Kirk joining Starfleet. They wanted to show these things because it was a movie that had never been done in a movie before and they wanted to create a movie.

18:03
Paul Sieber
Maru had been done in the movie before. Star Trek two, the rap of Khan.

18:06
Case Aiken
Yeah. Or rather, they wanted to show Kirk do it.

18:11
Paul Sieber
Yeah, but even the way they showed Kirk do it didn't match up.

18:15
Case Aiken
It didn't work.

18:17
Paul Sieber
And the whole thing, too, was changing. Like, little silly thing. They're trying to salute Star Trek with the same thing, making him called bones because my wife divorced me, led me with nothing but my bones. No, it was sawbones, meaning doctor from.

18:30
Case Aiken
A west, because it's an old term.

18:32
Paul Sieber
Supposed to be a western. That was where bones came from. Did you suddenly have to change that? For what reason?

18:37
Case Aiken
I think they were trying to translate things to a modern audience.

18:40
Paul Sieber
Why something.

18:41
Case Aiken
But that was the purpose of the movie.

18:42
Paul Sieber
And then all of a sudden, change all the lingo and say lol. Some cowboy saying lol. I mean, why would you do that? Yeah, it's modern lingo, but it doesn't necessarily fit what you're doing.

18:50
Case Aiken
But you got to remember the 2009 movie was trying to relaunch the franchise for a modern audience.

18:55
Paul Sieber
Then that goes back to my original statement, then don't do what you did and try to do the same where you're trying to make it the old show, but the new show. Just reboot the damn thing. Start it from scratch. This is their first day on the ship. New mission, new crew. Change what you need to from there. Do what Battlester Galactica did.

19:10
Case Aiken
Let's talk about some of the things that are in the movie beyond just the general concept of it. Let's start with the opening scene. I really like the opening scene, and here's the big reason why I think it's a thing that deserves to stay in and why I tend to like the reboot or the time travel reboot aspect of it. My fiance, who does not really care about Star Trek, never had seen any Star Trek before we started dating. We went and saw that movie, and she was bawling at the end of that scene. And I think that it's a cheap emotional grab right there, but it does a really good job of getting people who aren't into this world into the emotions of the characters.

19:56
Case Aiken
And I thought that for introducing the concept of, like, okay, things are different, and now we have a hook for why we should.

20:03
Paul Sieber
Why do things have to be different? Why couldn't you just have started? Here's the thing. Is this a movie about Kirk, Spock, and McCoy? That's essential. Three people to Star Trek, right? That's what it's supposed to be.

20:17
Case Aiken
I don't think this movie is series. I think this movie is about Kirk and Spock. And McCoy is Kirk's right hand man, and then Uhohura is Spock's right hand lady.

20:26
Paul Sieber
Okay, that's fine. You want to do that? That's fine. The only purpose of that opening scene was to establish, hey, Trek fans, this is Star Trek alternate universe. That's all that was for. That's the only purpose it served. It served no purpose. It didn't drive this. The only part of the story that it drove was the part of the story I don't like that premise.

20:46
Case Aiken
So let's move on. Let's talk about Nero as a villain.

20:50
Paul Sieber
Terrible villain.

20:51
Case Aiken
I think he was not built up enough. I was fine with him being kind of crazed by the destruction of Romulus. I would have liked him to be more consistent with it.

21:00
Paul Sieber
What planet's destroyed? I go back in time and then I do two things. One, I do nothing to prevent my planet from getting destroyed or save its people, and then, two, I take revenge on someone who had nothing to do with it.

21:13
Case Aiken
Well, the reason why Romulus was destroyed doesn't make sense for him to be on a quest against the Federation. If the Federation was responsible for Romulus being destroyed, maybe that would have made more sense. That's what he thought.

21:25
Paul Sieber
He doesn't try to go after anyone that did it. He doesn't try to save his people, and then he goes to take revenge on Kirk, who had nothing to do with it. Matter of fact, Kirk's long dead by the time Romulus blows up. What is the point of his vengeance? There is no point of his vengeance, which makes it a useless vengeance. Khan had vengeance for a reason. In wrath of Khan, there was a reason he wanted to go after Kirk. There's a reason he wanted to get even with these people. It was justified in his mind, but enough to make the character work as a villain. Spiderman two, the death of his wife and his desire to see his life's work of this dream. That's what made Dr. Octopus a good villain. It was that drive from the goal.

22:06
Paul Sieber
In his mind, this villain was a terrible villain.

22:10
Case Aiken
All right, so let's say we're about to start shooting. The script has been written. You can do rewrites on it, but a lot of the sets have already been built. And like I said, they're about to start shooting. It's been cast. You can cut some scenes, you can get rid of some actors. Movies work that way. You can do some reshoots, even if you really need to do dramatic ones. But what changes are you going to make that a better villain? Because you're not going to completely get rid of them.

22:34
Paul Sieber
First off, I would have said to have some way. There's some reason you'd have Nero either blame the Federation or someone in particular, maybe even somehow, something Kirk did long term that had happened in the past for why Romulus was destroyed. This would give him a reason to go into the past and want to go after, specifically after Kirk. I'm going to keep him from getting born. He gets born. I'm going to go after him again later. It would at least give us some justification for why he was doing this, to give him some kind of avenge. The other thing, too, is to make the main thing that the villains are using for their weaponry for this big thing.

23:06
Paul Sieber
I understand it's a mining ship, and that's what the drill and everything, but their whole big thing, this red matter thing like that, it didn't work. The logic was off. Rewrite the script with some logic. I have this stuff called red matter. One drop will blow up a planet, right? That's what, yeah.

23:23
Case Aiken
Or consume a planet.

23:24
Paul Sieber
Yeah, consume a planet. Okay, let's start with that. I have this. This is pretty deadly stuff, first off. Then I should have a small beaker of it because that'd be enough to destroy a galaxy. To have a tank with 10,000 gallons of it and be showing that the universe would blow up. How would you have acquired this much universe destroying material? It didn't make sense.

23:46
Case Aiken
It should have been like the dark matter in a futurama thing. Small, like a little nibbler nugget.

23:51
Paul Sieber
It's so precious. If one drop can destroy a planet, it'd be incredibly precious. Making a tank of 10,000 gallons of it. It's no longer precious. It's not like there's just craploads of it sitting around. That's number one. Okay. Doesn't make their weaponry. Thing number two. One drop destroys a planet, why do I have to drill the hole, throw the drop at the planet, put it in some device, have it explode on the planet. The drop, that's enough to destroy the planet?

24:16
Case Aiken
Yeah, it seemed to be a little.

24:17
Paul Sieber
Why do I need the drill?

24:19
Case Aiken
I thought was a good, dramatic device. Served no purpose, ultimately, for the weapon that they had. If it was something where no purpose.

24:25
Paul Sieber
Yeah.

24:25
Case Aiken
If it was something that could disrupt.

24:26
Paul Sieber
They only did it so they could have a big, dramatic scene of people parachuting down to fight on top of the drill. And then that goes with the second thing. The drill is a thing. The drill is hanging on a tether. We have to stop the drill. Shoot the tether, cut the tether. Why is it they do later, but why is there a gigantic sword fight on it instead of just cutting the damn tether?

24:44
Case Aiken
Yeah. And they do later, like, they shoot it down later when it's later.

24:47
Paul Sieber
See my point?

24:48
Case Aiken
That's what I'm agreeing.

24:48
Paul Sieber
They do.

24:49
Case Aiken
I'm saying, why not do it the first time?

24:52
Paul Sieber
Doesn't make sense. So then we got two things. There's actually three things now about this red matter that doesn't make sense. And then let's go with the last part of it. At the end, when they destroy his ship, there's 10,000 gallons of this red matter on it. The galaxy should be gone. You just blew up. Yeah.

25:07
Case Aiken
I mean, even if it was, there's an argument of how far it could spread. Like, they're in Earth's solar system at that point. And, yeah, it's pretty bad.

25:17
Paul Sieber
So your main plot device, this red matter. Right. And using this and so forth, doesn't make sense.

25:27
Case Aiken
It just doesn't.

25:29
Paul Sieber
No one thought it through. And I'm sorry. When you're dealing with things like Star Trek, a lot of times the reasons throws like that have gone in, and people have talked about the influence Star Trek's had on things like science and so forth, because people who grew up watching Trek became scientists, invented iPads and flip phones and so forth, which means you have an educated audience that likes these kind of shows.

25:51
Case Aiken
Well, the show does.

25:52
Paul Sieber
Yeah.

25:53
Case Aiken
The argument could be made that the movie is trying to appeal to a broader audience.

25:57
Paul Sieber
So you make it dumb. So you take out any intelligence whatsoever in what your main.

26:03
Case Aiken
Optimally, you keep it smart, but have it be accessible.

26:05
Paul Sieber
Make it smart, but accessible. But taking out the intelligence of those things by making your main plot device just plain not work, where's the logic in that? It doesn't work when you dumb down your main plot device. So the vengeance thing doesn't work because there's no logical reason for this vengeance. And I love the one thing I kept getting told by people when I would point that out. Well, if you read the comic book ahead of time, it tells you, oh.

26:32
Case Aiken
I hate that argument. I hate that argument. The comic actually ruined one of the things I liked about it, which was that their mining ship was because it's 100 years in the future, and it seemed to have these jury rigged missiles based on stuff that they used for mining, was more advanced than the warships of that time. I like that detail because it shows the shift in technology. And then all of a sudden, it's like, no, but it's using Borg technology. And why does everything have to be the Borg? It's literally like, we're going to take the two villains, people know about Romulans and the Borg. We're missing the Klingons, but, okay, whatever. And then we're going to mash them together and they're going to be the villains.

27:06
Paul Sieber
And then we get back to some other stuff, too, that let's go into this reboot universe. The fact that they're saying that this is the same people but in an alternate version of the reality, that wouldn't change the physiology of people. Why do the Romulans no longer look like the Romulans did? Why are they now bald with tattooed heads?

27:28
Case Aiken
I took it that they never tattooed themselves and that they had shaved heads.

27:33
Paul Sieber
We never saw Romulans that ever looked like that before. We didn't see that going to.

27:36
Case Aiken
Well, we didn't see that many lower class Romulans.

27:39
Paul Sieber
I'm not saying you can't improve makeup and so forth, but what they did was they entirely changed it. But you're telling me this isn't, see, this is where I have the problem with. You can go ahead and entirely change that makeup if you're rebooting the universe from scratch, period. But when you're staying, it's still tied to the original universe with the original character, and it's just an alternate timeline.

28:02
Case Aiken
But you know what I'm going to say in response.

28:04
Paul Sieber
You change the physiology of people. That would take hundreds of generations.

28:08
Case Aiken
Yeah, but you know what I'm going to respond with, which is that the Star Trek the motion picture entirely changed the physiology of the Klingons.

28:15
Paul Sieber
I don't disagree with you, and I always had an issue with that. But you're also talking about the physiology from a television show in the 1960s.

28:23
Case Aiken
It didn't have to make it right into the.

28:27
Paul Sieber
We've now established how Romulans have looked through Star Trek, the Next Generation, deep space nine, Voyager, so forth, and multiple films.

28:36
Case Aiken
Right now you're suddenly going to say.

28:39
Paul Sieber
It'S the same people, the same races, a different timeline? Well, that timeline should have had to about 10,000 years.

28:48
Case Aiken
Romulans are also from the original timeline, so they're not even dealing with. Thank you.

28:54
Paul Sieber
So that makes even less sense.

28:56
Case Aiken
What they have said is that they wanted the Romulans to look more like the Vulcans. And I've always felt that the Vulcans should look more like the Romulans. I always felt that Spock shouldn't be what we use as an example of a vulcan, because Spock is a half vulcan and we always use, I've always liked the idea that maybe pure blooded Vulcans, they never show it, but should look more akin to the ramens. Like, have a little bit more of the ridges have even, like, I never.

29:21
Paul Sieber
Liked when they started on next generation.

29:23
Case Aiken
Oh, I don't want it to be like huge ridges, but, like a little.

29:25
Paul Sieber
Big forehead they put on everybody because all they did on next generation for makeup is an alien. We have to give me some kind of a wrinkly nose or a big forehead.

29:33
Case Aiken
Right.

29:33
Paul Sieber
Because it was like the only two makeup kits. They had wrinkly noses and big foreheads. I used to think that was the biggest cop out on that show. It's kind of like, what kind of a big wrinkly forehead nose combo can we give this week? And there was only somebody that put little veins in it. They put little things, make the eyebrows go funny. It was always just like, what's the forehead? I used to make the joke, it's the forehead of the week.

29:52
Case Aiken
Yeah, no, Star Trek forehead. Star Trek.

29:55
Paul Sieber
So it was the forehead of the week. I'll say in the movies if you want to enhance the makeup. But the thing was, it wasn't like you were going from the original series to the movies and they changed to Klingons. That was actually kind of different and a lot more forgivable because we're really talking about two different formats. But when you talk about changing those Romulans now, it's just like, kind of like you're really telling me this isn't the same people, just in a different timeline. This is an entirely different universe because physiology isn't the same. So then if it is an entirely different universe, if it is a complete reboot, then why do you need Leonard Nimoy? And he was a gigantic waste of time. It didn't make sense. And blowing up Vulcan didn't make sense.

30:34
Paul Sieber
And then we get down into those little plot points. They blow up Vulcan, but he can see from this next planet how close are these planets to each other. Then during the movie, they make the other big plot device they come up with. I can beam into a ship light years away at warp speed.

30:49
Case Aiken
This is the beginning of the big.

30:50
Paul Sieber
Problem, actually carries over into the next. Oh, yeah.

30:53
Case Aiken
The next movie is where it.

30:54
Paul Sieber
My whole thing comes down to this kind of thing. Why do you need a starship anymore? You no longer need starships because now you can beam to the other end of the galaxy. Why do you need a starship?

31:06
Case Aiken
You know, that was part of an idea when they were first talking about next gen, making it so that no one had ships, and they just beam from place to place, and they immediately got rid of that idea because it's crazy.

31:15
Paul Sieber
But here they do so my whole thing is in this movie is like, what's the point? The thing is, if you have that capability, you've now taken everything out of crisis, because I'm not even going to get into Star Trek beyond. Or the thing you have with that is when they got into that cris situation, they could have just beamed everybody back to Earth.

31:30
Case Aiken
True.

31:31
Paul Sieber
Because if you have that technology, wouldn't you have that as an emergency? Why do you need, like, escape pods or anything? Like, I have it beam everyone back home.

31:39
Case Aiken
It's true. I mean, I think especially once, that.

31:41
Case Aiken
Becomes once you standard.

31:43
Paul Sieber
But you made it standard by the end of this film, and then in the next movie, you made it even more commonplace. The fact that the transporter that could do that could fit into a briefcase. Come on, now.

31:52
Case Aiken
Yeah, if that's that simple.

31:54
Paul Sieber
Imagine a system you could have built into your stuff. You just beam your starship to a location you don't really need. Then you have little motors so you can putter around. You know, that you beam the whole ship back to Earth.

32:04
Case Aiken
All right, but again, so what would you do to fix this?

32:07
Paul Sieber
I would never made that beaming thing.

32:09
Case Aiken
Oh, yeah, totally cut that. So we start them as red matter.

32:13
Paul Sieber
I'd have made it more precious that.

32:15
Case Aiken
Maybe I would have done something like tiny vial. That ship only works the small amount that you have, and every time you.

32:19
Paul Sieber
Use it, some other mechanism to set it off. Not this drill a hole kind of thing. Like, I have to have it, like, drip onto a piece of dilithium crystal.

32:26
Case Aiken
Well, what if you showed what happens if it just hits something where it creates a giant crater, but it doesn't actually destroy the planet?

32:32
Paul Sieber
Like, if it was. If it's enough of a giant crater, that would make a whole planet be dead. What difference would it make whether the planet physically disappeared or you killed everything on it?

32:38
Case Aiken
No giant crater. Maybe it takes out a country, but not necessarily a continent. So it's like a bomb. Destroy a planet if it was incorrectly placed? I'm saying, like, what if they showed it? So it was not as effective as what we're saying.

32:52
Paul Sieber
Drop ten drops, you still had 100,000. You still had 100,000 gallons. Seed a cloud with it and rain it on the planet. I mean, that would have been.

33:01
Case Aiken
Point is that JJ Abrams wanted to make Star wars before he could make Star wars, and so he wanted a Death Star that could blow up a planet with a laser gun.

33:08
Paul Sieber
Yes.

33:09
Case Aiken
Okay. Yeah. All right.

33:11
Paul Sieber
And then he wanted to create a scene so people could have a lightsaber fight. So he had them have to parachute down so they could have a sword fight on top of the drill.

33:19
Case Aiken
Yeah, the funny one with that was.

33:21
Paul Sieber
Trying to make a Star wars movie out of Star Trek.

33:22
Case Aiken
Yeah, the funny one with that was that when they did the sulu fencing scene in the original series, takei came out and being like, hey, I'm an asian american in the current era who likes fencing and doesn't like katanas. I don't see why Asian American in the future, or a person of japanese descent in the future would automatically go katana. And then they do the katana in the 2009 movie instead of a rapier.

33:48
Paul Sieber
Well, that was the whole thing, too. Takai was trained as a fencer, right, in college. So to him, it was like they wanted him originally to use a katana, and he said, I don't know how to use that. He even made the point where they actually, when they got in the movies, that, yes, he was of asian descent, but he was born in San Francisco. He was an american. He wasn't maybe a japanese American or whatever they would call it in that future time. But the point was, he wasn't some guy from Japan. He wasn't some guy from any place in Asia. He was born in San Francisco.

34:21
Case Aiken
Right.

34:22
Paul Sieber
So that makes it even more know. If you want to look at have him with a katana, it's like, yeah, because that's real common in San Francisco.

34:35
Case Aiken
I think I generally liked the majority of the ship. I didn't like that they built it on Earth. I thought that was stupid physics wise.

34:43
Paul Sieber
It doesn't make sense. It's too know all the weight, the energy it would take, the gravity. It's not supposed to be an atmospheric vessel. It's not in any way aerodynamic. So building it on the ground, taking it up, doesn't matter. The international Space Station we built in orbit.

34:56
Case Aiken
Right.

34:57
Paul Sieber
Took it up. Piece of the.

34:58
Case Aiken
I think. I think that was dumb. They wanted to have that trailer shot of it being built, but it could have just as easily been done in space. But they like the idea of him sitting on a motorcycle. Yeah. Looking know. Abrams loves that kind of shot because there's almost an identical one in force. Awakens with Rey and the broken star destroyer.

35:19
Paul Sieber
Exactly. She's on her speaker thing. There's the broken star.

35:21
Case Aiken
Yeah. So he liked that kind of shot. And I get why he did it. I think it's dumb. It would have been fine even if it was like, parts were being assembled and then being shipped up into space. But the full ship, like, if it was like, oh, we're building on a cell, and that's being sent out or something. Now, the inside of the ship, the bridge, it's huge. It looks like a Mac store to me.

35:45
Paul Sieber
It looks like an apple store. It's too big, it's too busy. Too many lights and too much stuff going on. Too many people on there. It takes away from the focus on the main characters. When you have 60 people on the bridge and 100 bridge stations, and they're all got flashy lights and stuff going off everywhere, there's too much going on. Plus the costumes. Now, the costumes were intended to salute the original series. I appreciate that. At the same time, there's a reason why when they went to the movies, they didn't use those costumes. They don't look good on screen. They look like pajamas. I don't care how much you try to modernize them, they still look like pajamas. But part of the reason they worked it was those color costumes on a gray, simple background.

36:22
Paul Sieber
The bridge had that gray doll color to it, very more military. And those costumes popped to really see the actors. Those costumes in that silver and white environment didn't go just, it was od.

36:37
Case Aiken
Right?

36:37
Paul Sieber
But I do look really bad. It was way too much technology. Apparently Avon really has wood for how many different lights and flashy things he can do with interior lens flares every time you turn your head. Lens flare.

36:52
Case Aiken
But that's kind of the language of how he does the future, where it's like, it's bright and it's shiny, and the lens flare is like part of that whole, it's the bright, shiny future is what he was trying to tell. And I think he went too far. But would you ever not get that.

37:07
Paul Sieber
You'Re creating look like a military organization to put me up in the academy, you had them dressed like nazi foot soldiers. You suddenly get on the ship and it's bright, happy, shiny future. But before that it was the german military. I mean, it just doesn't go. The two things don't go together. Wouldn't that look, if the academy was so utilitarian, why is the ship not utilitarian?

37:27
Case Aiken
Yeah, and they definitely treat the academy as very, like, militarized versus what?

37:30
Paul Sieber
Okay, if you want to go that route, which we kind of got that feeling in Rapicon, then go that route and let's make the ship look a little more practical. That's not practical in any way, shape or form. It's terrible. But hey, that's just me. And it was too big, the ship.

37:43
Case Aiken
Oh, yeah, it was way too big. They try to make it the galaxy class ship size for no apparent reason why.

37:49
Paul Sieber
We could just still have a ship with, like, under 400 people. I'm perfectly fine with that. I don't see a reason why we had to just so we could say.

37:57
Case Aiken
It was like Voyager was in the same ballpark, maybe a little smaller, somewhere in the. Definitely fewer people on the ship.

38:03
Paul Sieber
You don't have to suddenly say, well, our ship is bigger.

38:06
Case Aiken
We're just saying, yeah, it was just dumb. It was like, well, of course the galaxy class ship is bigger. It's 100 years in the future and way more advanced and designed for a different purpose. And by the end of next gen, it basically is agreed that the galaxy class ship is not a great ship for most of its purposes. Yeah, it was too big. It was from a time of peace where they encountered no hostile forces. So by the second you meet the Borg, you're like, this ship's not built the way we need it to be built.

38:31
Paul Sieber
E doesn't look anything like it.

38:33
Case Aiken
No, it's exactly.

38:36
Paul Sieber
The ship was overwhelmed. The engines were overwieldy in their shape. It didn't go, to me, the most beautiful version of the Enterprise, and Star Trek fans probably get mad at me for it was Star Trek, the motion picture. I loved the way that Enterprise looked. It had a better feel to it than obviously what technology they have when they did the tv show. But the motion picture.

38:58
Case Aiken
Yeah, the motion picture looked great.

38:59
Paul Sieber
It's a great looking vessel. I never liked Enterprise D. I always thought it was terrible. So unwieldy looking with that massive saucer hanging over.

39:11
Case Aiken
I got what they were going for with it.

39:12
Paul Sieber
I get what they were doing for, but it's like too many windows.

39:16
Case Aiken
Yeah, I mean, they really wanted to set it apart from the classic series one, but still the same shape to me.

39:23
Paul Sieber
I'm not a huge fan of ship, but I could live with the ship, except for the fact that the engine room is a brewery.

39:30
Case Aiken
I mean, it was nice that they had a practical set, but it was.

39:32
Paul Sieber
Like, at the same time, all those pipes. Doesn't make any sense.

39:36
Case Aiken
This is a warp drive vessel. It's for steam and stuff all over. Oh, it's for piping space stuff and to other space stuff trapped in a.

39:44
Paul Sieber
Pipe and go, oh, no, I'm trapped in a pipe.

39:47
Case Aiken
All right, so let's talk about making it a practical movie. So movies about to be made, we can do some basic rewrites. We can sort of fix the character of Nero, but we really can't completely get rid of them because Eric Ban has been cast.

40:02
Paul Sieber
Okay, the fixes for this simple are pretty straightforward and basic. You have to eliminate where we have the problems. The red matter problem.

40:13
Case Aiken
That could be a CGI thing if you make like a nibbler nugget with the red matter.

40:18
Paul Sieber
Yeah, but you got the villain motivation problem. You got the weapon problem. Once again, the biggest problem with the entire film comes down to how it was written. I'm not going to take anything. Actors, sets. It all comes down to how it was written. So simply doing this, if you have to have the time travel thing, and I'll say have to. You say that in the future, you say something happens either, particularly because of some decision Kirk made when he was the commander of the Enterprise. Some decision he made, say, letting some.

40:49
Case Aiken
Alien race go or some doomsday weapon.

40:51
Paul Sieber
Some doomsday weapon or something along those lines is why Romulus is destroyed. So when Nero comes back in time, it's specifically to kill Kirk before he's born so that he can't cause this thing to happen. And then the big surprise should be that we don't know why he's come back in time right off the bat and destroying this other ship. Then we find out that the guy he killed was George Kirk and the baby was just born, was named Jim. Yeah, this would be fun thing there, right? Cut something. Nero ship is damaged. It does a tumble off into space like Darth Vader's tie fighter.

41:27
Case Aiken
Right? Because he loves Star wars.

41:29
Paul Sieber
Cut forward in time. On the enterprise, it's year one or year two of the five year mission. Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock. Boom. They're on the ship. They're on a mission to do a certain thing. That's when we bring Nero.

41:41
Case Aiken
Now, I like Pike. I wouldn't have a problem with Kirk not being the first or not being the captain and having not about Captain pike.

41:48
Paul Sieber
There's a reason pike when they did the first.

41:51
Case Aiken
But if the movie opens with him being the captain and they want to show an arc of Kirk, because I.

41:55
Paul Sieber
Don'T give a damn. Star Trek is about Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock and Dr. McCoy. That's what Star Trek is. It's like starting a movie about Santa Claus. And our big emphasis is on Mrs. Claus. She's done in her life.

42:10
Case Aiken
She's a badass lady. You don't Santa till, like three quarters.

42:14
Paul Sieber
Of the way into the film. But the movie's about.

42:17
Case Aiken
The movie could be about Kirk, but we don't need no pike, okay?

42:20
Paul Sieber
Pike is not Star Trek. There's a reason they wrote the character out after they created the initial pilot, because the character didn't work for the show. They wrote it out and they created Kirk.

42:30
Case Aiken
Okay, fair enough.

42:31
Paul Sieber
The only reason we ever saw pike is because it was a writer's strike. And they rehashed that episode to make.

42:37
Case Aiken
A two parter in a way that was better than the original episode.

42:40
Paul Sieber
Better than the original episode that was all right. So we cut in. They're on some kind of a mission, doing some kind of thing. Then we bring the Nero back. We have the whole confrontation happen with Nero. We find out Nero's motivation. Now, Romulus was destroyed because of. You did this, Kirk. And then we have Chris Pine. Like, I haven't done that thing. How can you blame me for something I haven't done?

43:03
Case Aiken
It's like a twist on.

43:04
Paul Sieber
We can change this together. Nero's like, no, the only way to change it, to kill you before you do it. We can have some kind. We've got a vengeance thing, we've got a motivation for the villain. Then the red matter. The red matter is precious. There's only a few drops of it in the universe, and he has them. I'm going to take one of those drops. Kirk are going to throw it at the earth. And there's something they can do. Now the red matter becomes a good plot device. Kirk's like, I can get this red matter off of him and then blows up the chip at the end. The Enterprise has to get away because he's got three drops of red matter, and that'll take out a solar system kind of a thing. Now the weapon becomes an issue.

43:37
Paul Sieber
So we've got all that motivation. At the end, when they're having their final battle with Nero, this other ship comes through this time vortex and starts shooting at Nero. And Nero disables it. And finally they blow up Nero's ship. They grab that ship with the tractor beam. They pull away really fast. They pull that ship into the cargo bay. They open it up, and it's Leonard Nimoy. And he looks at Chris Pine and goes, Jim. Boom.

43:59
Sam Alicea
Bang.

43:59
Paul Sieber
End of story.

44:00
Case Aiken
Now, do you think it should be right at the end, like a deus ex machina or maybe show up a little bit earlier?

44:04
Paul Sieber
And then scene we did, they're all recovers. Like, we pulled that ship on board. It helped us. God damn. Let's see what's going on. Who's a pilot of that thing? And that's when we get to see boy. Boom. Okay, so he says they're on a mission, and then we suddenly we have Nero show up, and he starts attacking the Enterprise. And Kirk's like, what are you doing? What are you doing? So we had a boom. We had some back and forth battles going. They're really going at each other. I think Nero says, it's because of you. You did this. And my planet was destroyed. And Kirk's like, I haven't done that. How can you blame me for something I haven't done yet? We can change history. And Kirk tries to be the diplomat, try to make it work together. Nero's like, no.

44:39
Paul Sieber
And they keep fighting, and they get to a couple boom. We got some cat and mouse stuff. You got all that great pew, pew, pew stuff, but we still got a story. You do all that kind of stuff, and you finally get toward the end, they're having the big final battle. Remember, we got the red matter now. Now red matter is precious. There's only three drops known to exist in the universe. Nero has all three, and he's going to throw one at the Earth and blow the earth up. And Kirk has to stop, and they're trying to go back toward Earth, and they're having a big fight. A time board takes out this other ship, comes out, and helps Kirk, and boom, they blow up Nero, and they have to get away because he got three drops of red matter.

45:07
Paul Sieber
Takes out a star system. Boom. So they finally get out of there. They tractor beam the other ship, and they pull out, and they're all rescued. They all, captain, we pulled that pod on board. I got to see who's the captain of that thing. And they pull on board, and they open up the pod, and Leonard Nimoy comes out and goes, Jim, end of the movie. Drama, excitement. You can keep all your pew, pew stuff in there. You can do your alternate universe. And then that could be when we could know in the next movie, we could have Spock realize that, hey, your dad didn't originally die in mission.

45:40
Case Aiken
They don't spell it out as much.

45:41
Paul Sieber
For the audience, very beginning of the film, because they kept doing this. It's Star Trek, but remember, it's a different timeline. It's Star Trek, but remember, it's a different timeline. It's Star Trek, but remember, it's a different timeline. Then you could use spot for saying. You could even use an element saying, like, how that may have changed other things, too, because the timeline gets warped and twisted to maybe other things. I won't know as much about what's going to happen kind of a thing have been changed.

46:06
Case Aiken
Well, yeah, that opens up the ability to make those twists, but things like.

46:10
Paul Sieber
Alien physiology and so forth, you could explain it that way, but they didn't. So that kind of couple of little changes. Now you've suddenly got a much better plot, tighter plot, tighter story. You got more action, less to cutting out that entire academy childhood thing. Come on, cut that whole piece off. Now you've got an exciting film.

46:32
Case Aiken
All right. That sounds like a really good pitch. I don't really think I can add a whole lot to it. I don't hate some of the stuff from the earlier scenes, but I think if you're going to chop it down or cut it down, just make it just a tight, fast moving movie. I think that sounds like a really good idea to go rapid Khan is a great example.

46:54
Paul Sieber
How much time did we spend on the Kurt filling old stuff in the beginning of the movie?

46:58
Case Aiken
A couple of minutes.

46:59
Paul Sieber
Yeah, but it was enough to establish it, right? Did it establish it?

47:02
Case Aiken
Yeah, they hearken back to it a couple of times, but they established it.

47:05
Paul Sieber
Yeah.

47:05
Case Aiken
It's maybe 15 minutes old in the.

47:07
Paul Sieber
Movie, having to need the glasses. That was a great. It was only 5 minutes of the film, but it really established something. And then that played out like, because of that whole thing with him feeling old. Wasn't there a great drama when, after the battle, when he was in his room and David, before David came in and he threw the glasses down on the table and the lenses were a. There's an impact and emotion in that scene just from seeing that broken lens.

47:32
Case Aiken
Yeah, there's.

47:33
Paul Sieber
Know, it's simple, see, but see, that's good filmmaking when you can do something, but there's an impact to that broken lens. That broken lens means something.

47:45
Case Aiken
And we don't have a moment like that in the current 2009 movie.

47:48
Paul Sieber
And that was part of the problem. It was because they started the movie the way they did. Which is why when you get into. Into darkness, I'm not believing well, into.

47:57
Case Aiken
Darkness was just a meandering, weird mess. But what I'm saying, that's another time.

48:02
Paul Sieber
If you start it with Kirk and Spock as friends, by starting this movie with their midway into the mission, okay.

48:08
Case Aiken
Right.

48:08
Paul Sieber
Then we can say that friendship exists and we can show things to make us people believe in that friendship. When you got into the. Into the darkness, the whole thing was they were trying to force us. Don't you know they're friends now. They're really great friends now. And I saw a nothing that showed me they were friends and B, nothing between them seemed like friends. So you needed to create that friendship in the first movie and you didn't. So if you have it just be part of the first film that they're already friends, then I think you could have got away with a little bit.

48:39
Case Aiken
Especially if it's at first a positive relationship of respect that pushes it in because through adversity.

48:46
Paul Sieber
Yeah, exactly. You could have done a lot with that in this movie, but you could have established that they were already friends when it started. They established that Uhura and Spock already had a relationship.

48:59
Case Aiken
Right, it's true.

49:00
Paul Sieber
Did the relationship have to get created in the story? Did they already have one? Yeah, they already had it. It was already there. Then they acknowledged it, and then they moved into the story saying, yeah, it was tough for them because of the. And that's fine. They could have had Kirk and Spock already be friends and then talk about maybe that friendship would get tested or something. But doing the way they wrote it, they said that we're going to show you how they became friends, and they.

49:25
Case Aiken
Never did where that friendship would have come from.

49:28
Case Aiken
We actually want to show a few things more.

49:31
Case Aiken
I think you've given some really good notes about how to make this a better movie. I wish it was one where we could edit the movie into a better position, but they don't have the scenes do it well. Paul, thank you so much for talking about this. I wish I could have you here next time when we talk about Highlander two, the quickening. But until next time, stay scruffy, my nerf herders.

49:51
Paul Sieber
Thanks for listening to certain point of views. Another past podcast.

49:55
Case Aiken
Don't miss an episode.

49:57
Paul Sieber
Just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com.

50:26
Case Aiken
And we're back. So it's really interesting to listen back on this episode, especially because there's audio issues and that kind of sucks. And I can hear, for me at least, like, where it's like, clear that we cut and came back to recording, and especially the chunk that we had to redo at the end.

50:40
Sam Alicea
It must be like the ghosts haunting you if your tech passed. Oh, my God. This is what's happened, case. This is where you didn't remember. We lost the thread.

50:55
Case Aiken
So, Sam, what was your take on this all. I mean, I know you're also a big Star Trek fan. We've done a bunch of Star Trek stuff since you've come on the show. Yeah, but we hit so much early on because I was actively working with people, had pretty good social media presences because of Star Trek fan film stuff that I wanted to get them on. So we did a lot of Star Trek early, and as a result, right.

51:14
Sam Alicea
There was less for us to do.

51:17
Case Aiken
Exactly. Less for us to do together. So this is a big one. I wanted you to actually be able to chime in.

51:22
Sam Alicea
You know, it's interesting because I was definitely not as harsh at all as Paul. I felt like this is a very classic JJ Abrams thing, is to do a reboot that's kind of just like the other thing. And don't get me wrong, he's so good in his scope and the way that he works things. But JJ has big ideas and doesn't always land, like, stick the ending, which is, like, my big thing with him, anytime he directs, it's, oh, amazing. Big ideas, grand scope, beautiful scenes. Okay, well, I guess this is where we're going to go. And so, in general, when I saw this movie in theaters, I rather enjoyed it. I think Paul definitely agreed and admitted, and I agree with him, this was actually very well casted.

52:13
Sam Alicea
I think that the cast is fun, and I think that they were well picked for these roles that are kind of very iconic right in the background. It's not easy to do right, because the fandom is, especially with these particular characters. They're so precious. So I felt like, at least in that way, they did a good job. I, unlike Paul, did not mind having a little background story for these characters or even their child selves, because I do think that in terms of the narrative of the movie, it does serve us later on. And I also think that you are correct in saying, when you say that, when you kind of do your counterpoint, that this movie was made to kind of give some fan service, but also try to bring more people into the fold, which I don't mind.

53:08
Sam Alicea
I don't mind that stuff. I don't think that it's necessarily bad. I do absolutely agree with Paul that I did not feel that the villain was very strong. I don't necessarily believe that his reasoning wasn't good. I just feel like your planet dying Pretty bad, right? But there's somewhere with the connecting the dots, there's somewhere where it falls flat in the writing, and you don't really feel the full brunt of loss in the same way that I feel like you ought to, because it's such a shitty situation. Right. It's such a terrible thing. But in general, this is a movie that's like, it's fun but flawed. Does it have repercussions? Into the other movies that were not great. Yes. But in terms of this film, I left the movie theater enjoying it. And when I have rewatched it, I have genuinely enjoyed it.

54:14
Sam Alicea
Like, I've enjoyed the dumb jokes and things like that. I haven't had a problem with that stuff. I actually thought it was really funny that Paul was upset about Bones'joke about his wife leaving him nothing.

54:28
Case Aiken
Right.

54:29
Sam Alicea
I thought that was really funny. I was mean. I guess if that's the hill you want to die on, that's a weird hill. But I actually thought that was funny because I was just like, yeah, you're right. It is thaw Bones. But I feel like it's okay to play on both. But I was just like, yeah, I get it, man. I get it. He's a doctor. He's a doctor, Jim.

54:50
Case Aiken
Yeah. This movie is so flawed, just across the board, but it has a lot of momentum. And I think that's the thing about this movie, which is that every single spot in it, there's, like a wait, what? Moment going on somewhere there. And at the same time, it keeps on rushing around, and you're caught up, you're swept up in all this motion that you're like, okay, cool.

55:15
Case Aiken
Yeah.

55:16
Case Aiken
And at the end, I'm very excited. Now, part of that is also, it's the first Star Trek movie in a really long time at the point it came out, and it's also going back to the original cast or not the original cast, but the original characters and playing around with that. And I like the time travel thing in terms of it being like, that's my jam. And I think it's very part of Star Trek to do time travel stuff.

55:37
Sam Alicea
Yes, absolutely. And honestly, I know that Paul is like, why bring Leonard Nimrod? Because we love it. Because fan service. Because JJ Abrams is the best at fan service.

55:49
Case Aiken
Yeah.

55:49
Case Aiken
Because I don't actually really like JJ Abrams as a director across the board, but I do think that he composes a shot well in terms of giving you an emotion to feel, and that's really good. And I think that this movie is fine. And particularly coming off of both nemesis and before that, insurrection, like, you know what? It's fine. We hadn't seen a big Star Trek movie in a while. There's a lot to love just because of that. And that's a big reason why for into darkness, it had faded by the time we get to that movie. This one doesn't make a lot of sense, but you're kind of just enjoying the totality of it. Versus the movie, the next movie. All those head scratching moments actually kind of cause it to grind to a halt.

56:36
Sam Alicea
Yeah, agreed. And again, the pacing really helps, right. Because if you're in theater, it's huge and it's moving fast and all these scenes that are so crazy and amazing looking, and it's adventure, and Kirk is the ultimate daredevil, and you're, you know, you're just having fun, and then you rewatch it and you're like, wait, why didn't they. Right, but they could have. Okay, but why did he. Exactly, but okay. Question. And then you're like, you know what? I'm not going to ask these questions. And then you get to the next movie and you're like, oh, no, this doesn't make sense.

57:18
Case Aiken
It's more of the same and worse. And that's where it gets kind of rough. Now, since this episode came out, I have seen a lot more, like, I've done more research just generally on Star Trek stuff. And one thing is so listening to the 50 year mission Ed Gross, friend of the Men of Steel pods, book on an oral history of Star Trek, they talk about how this was actually kind of in the works. Even before we get the next gen movies. Even before we get next Gen, the show, there was this idea for a Star Trek Academy movie that would have recast everyone as younger people in their academy years and doing that story. So that concept had been floating around the Paramount studios for, at this point, like 30 years.

58:00
Sam Alicea
Wow. I can believe it. I'm not going to belie, because it had its moments. It had its moments worth going through. Puberty was kind of hilarious, but I can kind of see why that wasn't something that they were just jumping to. Green light.

58:27
Case Aiken
Yeah, there was a lot of friction on that one because also, we have to remember, Roddenberry was still alive at the time, and there was lots of competing ideas in terms of who was actually running this whole show. But the point is that it's an idea that they had that they wanted to do, and so you can kind of see how that evolved over time. I'm not saying that any of those drafts had anything to do with the ultimate script, but certainly producers involved were aware of this idea of, hey, we had this idea for, we're going to do young Kirk, Spock and bones. Let's bring that back. Let's dust off that concept and put a lot of polish. And they got JJ Abrams, who puts so much polish on.

59:06
Sam Alicea
It's almost all just, it's like he didn't even mop the floor, he just put wax on top of more and more.

59:12
Paul Sieber
Just more wax.

59:14
Sam Alicea
Just more wax. Not necessarily this movie, because this movie had a little more balance than some of his other films. But that was not like a pointed clearing of my throat. I just want to say that I really did have to clear my throat. I wasn't throwing shade. But I do think that it gets harder and harder to build something with a good foundation when your first foundation is not. It doesn't even have to be airtight. It just has to be slightly better than this.

59:47
Case Aiken
Yeah, the whole world of the Kelvin verse doesn't make sense. Like, everything about it just kind of, like, falls apart. And then you get into the actual timeline of this movie, which is even more batshit insane. So this week, I made a reference to my wife to starship troopers, and she was like, oh, I actually don't think I've ever seen that. And I was like, we must have seen that together at some point. And then I realized, oh, you must have fallen asleep before the movie even started because she agreed to watch it with me. And it was an eye opening experience for her. But rewatching it, thinking about this movie coming up for it, that movie does a lot of similar things in terms of timeline.

01:00:26
Case Aiken
There is a very rapid rise from high school through the ranks of military into positions of authority. In one character's case, as the captain of a ship, another character is like an admiral by the end of it all. So they're doing a lot of that stuff. And now the point of that movie is to show this fascist police state using fear of the unknown as a way of suppressing individual freedoms and how people are indoctrinated into this whole thing. And so we see this progression of a character who's supposed to be a senior in high school to being the most diehard right wing lieutenant in, effectively, their army.

01:01:03
Sam Alicea
Right.

01:01:04
Case Aiken
By the end of it all. And it's supposed to be dwelling on that whole thing. There's a scene later in the movie where it's like the recruits that show up as reinforcements are very clearly cast as very young people, whereas the high school students at the beginning of the movie are like these actors who are like, 30, right? And it's like, oh, man, we're the old men now. And it's like, yeah, you've always been the fucking old men guys. And now that movie, I think, is way smarter than this one. Just once in general.

01:01:30
Sam Alicea
Absolutely.

01:01:31
Case Aiken
And it's doing a different thing. But that's kind of the movie that I wish we had done, in terms, at least, of the timeline for these actors. It is really weird that they're just all of a sudden the ranks on the ship that they're supposed to be. When we get to the show, when it's like, wait, aren't you all technically still at the academy?

01:01:49
Sam Alicea
Yeah, they're just all there on this new ship already, but they're in their place, and that is kind of Od.

01:01:59
Case Aiken
Yeah. And it's like, very much just don't think about it. But christ, guys, you're not doing us any favors in terms of having us not pay attention to that part.

01:02:08
Sam Alicea
Yeah, it all feels very awkwardly rushed. And I think Paul did make a good point in saying, you have this person who's a dropout who then becomes captain, and how would anyone else, right. Like, anyone else. Everybody else. He specifically spoke about Zulu, but everyone else on that ship, like, so even someone who worked in the lower decks graduated. I feel like Paul makes a very solid statement there. In the episode we just listened to, it's just like little things, like, oh, he's such a rebel, and he's so outside of the, like, that's ultimate. Like, what?

01:02:58
Case Aiken
Yeah, it's. It's super broken.

01:03:00
Sam Alicea
I mean, my dad was a captain, so I'd be a great captain.

01:03:04
Case Aiken
Well, that is the J. J. Abrams way, isn't, huh? Well, and it's wild, though, because Kirk's actual history in Star Trek lore prior to that point isn't that different from that in that he became the commanding officer of the Hyperion when the majority of the deck crew was killed by, I think it was like an alien parasite.

01:03:22
Sam Alicea
Right.

01:03:23
Case Aiken
And so there is actually a story that is kind of similar. And to say, like, oh, he was on the Enterprise instead of the Hyperion isn't insane to do if you wanted to do something like that. But he's not supposed to be the actual captain. He's the acting captain. And the fact that it's all the same people that would be on the ship is crazy. It feels like a weird fan fiction kind of thing here.

01:03:45
Sam Alicea
I mean, honestly, wouldn't it have been more interesting to see underling Kirk be on the Hyperion and just act out that story? To me, that would have been much more interesting. It also would have given a little more room for second movie and others so that we're not just remaking old episodes, but giving room for a new universe to live, even though it's the same characters. And again, that's part of my thing. When JJ takes on these big projects, because he did the same thing with, you know, it's kind of like he knows the formula that works and he goes, okay, well, we're going to do that because that's what the fans will like. And then he kind of duplicates that, puts some wax on it, some shine and sparkle and tweaks a couple of things here and there.

01:04:48
Sam Alicea
And I just feel like this series would have been. And the cast, too, would have been just better served if maybe you have him just with one person, like one of the main characters in that first movie, and then you have him on the Enterprise with everyone else, maybe not introduce everyone first movie, but that doesn't scratch the nostalgia itch, I guess, right?

01:05:14
Case Aiken
Yeah.

01:05:14
Case Aiken
Like the movie, they wanted to get back to the status quo of the original series, but they jumped the gun so much. It's weird. Also, we say JJ a lot, but I do also want to put some of the onus on the writers, which are Robert Horsey and Alex Kurtzman's, because neither of them are writers that I like all that much. I think that JJ, as the producer and director, should have reined them in on all the things that don't make any fucking sense in this movie. So it is ultimately on him, but as a writing team, the fact that none of the pieces fit together, but you find the movie fun, that is JJ Abrams succeeding at making what is objectively a bad script with good moments a fun movie, even if it's not a great movie.

01:05:57
Sam Alicea
I concur. I concur. I'm sorry, JJ. We're not going to just blame you writers.

01:06:03
Case Aiken
Well, and it's funny because, like we said at the beginning, the goal is not to be that negative, but there is negativity to express towards this movie. And again, I still enjoy it. It is interesting now, in 2023, looking at it, where we've gotten more Star Trek material since then. This was the rebirth of Trek as a franchise that Paramount cared about prior to this point. And there's some weirdness in terms of, with Paul and me and the general vibes of the time. Paramount hadn't done anything, so prior to the nine Star Trek, the property was fallow. They basically gave carte blanche to fan groups to do stuff. And so there was a thriving community up until nine, and then nine, there was, like, a little bit of restrictions that they started putting in terms of what rights you had.

01:06:49
Case Aiken
Paul alluded to phase two, which was like the continuation of new voyages that actually had a little bit of the blessing of Paramount. And then that kind of got shut down. And then right when this episode was recorded, they had actually put out the guidelines that we are currently under, which was to limit some of the parasitic fan groups that are out there. Not to names, but people who've raised a lot of money and then never actually put anything out.

01:07:13
Sam Alicea
That's not good.

01:07:14
Case Aiken
No, it's not good. And it was also, like, making things look bad. And it happened right when they had announced at this point, discovery, but nothing had really come out. Or if it did, like maybe an episode or two, like, super early in the run of Discovery at this point, if it even had been out there at this point. But we knew Star Trek was coming, versus now a lot of Star Trek has come out. Like, discovery is concluding its run soon. Picard is in the midst of its final season. We've got stuff like lower decks, which is great.

01:07:42
Sam Alicea
I love great.

01:07:42
Case Aiken
And we've got strange new worlds.

01:07:44
Sam Alicea
I love that.

01:07:44
Case Aiken
And strange new worlds is doing exactly what Paul said he didn't care about, which I find hilarious, which is a pike centered show.

01:07:52
Sam Alicea
I do think that's funny, too, because when I heard him say it, I was like, stranger worlds has been my favorite. I actually really do enjoy discovery. I just think that every week it's like something, and I feel like my anxiety is always at like a ten watching it. And then Picard makes me sad, and lower decks makes me laugh, like, so much, but sometimes it makes me kind of be know, kind of gives me secondhand embarrassment. So for me, strange new world is like right in the center, and it's just pitch perfect for me.

01:08:26
Case Aiken
Yeah, strange new world is so good.

01:08:28
Sam Alicea
I feel like one of those three little bears. This one's too anxiety inducing, and this chair makes me too sad, and this chair makes me feel embarrassed. But this chair is just right.

01:08:42
Case Aiken
Yeah, it's so good.

01:08:45
Case Aiken
And it has all the right balances of things where it's like, oh, yeah, it is the Enterprise. It's really cool. You get that sense of discovery that feels really big and out there and awesome, like that humanity is going to do something really cool with it all. And it has the trappings of the original series, but allowing for it to be a little bit different, and there's some skewed stuff going on there. It is the spiritual successor to what this movie was trying to do and succeeding way more in terms of the actual continuity that I realize that continuity can be a chain that restricts storytelling, but fuck, man, Star Trek is kind of built on having a cohesive world that lots of nerds care about.

01:09:25
Sam Alicea
I agree. And here's the thing. And like you said, we kind of talked about the things we had to complain about. I am grateful to this film. And I want to say again, I did enjoy it. I do love this cast. I think that they breathed life into these characters, and they did a good job with the work that they had. They did a great job. What was in front of them and what was on the page. But I love that. I think that it was successful in bringing people who were not formally very familiar with Star Trek and bringing them into the fold and bringing them into enjoying it. That makes these future projects that much more likely to happen. Right. And so we do have to give credit to the film for doing that, despite the continuity issues in the writing.

01:10:25
Sam Alicea
That definitely should have been fixed. But this is a fun world. And if this is playing on tv, if I'm flipping through channels and it's playing on tv, I'll watch it. Or if I'm doing laundry and I need something in the background, I might put it on Paramount and just let it run because it's fun. Does it always make sense? No, but it's fun.

01:10:50
Case Aiken
Yeah. And I think when this episode was recorded, it was even before beyond came out. I can't remember exactly, but beyond I loved. I thought that was a fantastic entry in this franchise that really had the fun and sense of exploration and optimism of the series and had gotten over the hurdles of the first two Abrams movies. And part of that is the script. Like, the fact that we had Star Trek fans who really cared about Star Trek, even under a lot of pressure to write it. And so maybe beyond would be a good episode for, like, a fifth episode because they had to scrap a script and totally rewrite it at very last minute. So that would be a lot of.

01:11:29
Sam Alicea
Fun, and we'll look forward to it because it's a reason to watch.

01:11:33
Case Aiken
There's. There's flaws in it, certainly, but it gets way more right than wrong, and I think it really gets the casts into the right positions, like everyone on that movie. Any issues you had with Chris Pine as Kirk, I think by the time you get to beyond, that's gone. He's nailed it. Versus here, there's still some rough edges on it all. Obviously, Quinto as Spock is really good. But also, you know what? Peck as Spock on strange new worlds has been really good.

01:12:03
Sam Alicea
I think so good might be easier.

01:12:05
Case Aiken
To cast than we had originally.

01:12:07
Sam Alicea
I know. I think we just like. Because Leonard Nimoy is Nimoy. Like, there's just this feeling like, oh, no one else could do that. And then we have these two other actors that are cast, and they're absolutely wonderful, and you still love Spock, and it's like, oh, it might just be the spirit of the character, and it's not that they didn't get it right. Like, I'm not taking this away from Quinto or anyone else. Right. But it's like, yeah, maybe it's just spock. Maybe he just has magic, just that character and just how wonderful he is. People just get it.

01:12:47
Paul Sieber
Yeah.

01:12:47
Case Aiken
Or maybe we just cast two amazing actors, and the fact that we've had three now amazing actors playing the part are like, maybe that's it.

01:12:55
Paul Sieber
Yeah.

01:12:55
Case Aiken
And, like, carl Urban as bones.

01:12:57
Sam Alicea
Like, fuck.

01:12:58
Paul Sieber
So good.

01:12:58
Case Aiken
So good.

01:12:59
Sam Alicea
The best. I love him so much. I love him in everything, but especially this.

01:13:04
Case Aiken
But I think the strongest points going on for this movie are the fact that we're calling back to the nostalgia of the original series that has really good characters with really interesting relationships in a really cool setting, and then you add in an excuse to kind of revel in it all in this movie, and that's all cool. And even the stuff that's bad that Abrams does, like the Enterprise being built on earth, the shot itself is really cool. So there's a lot of reasons to have big, positive feelings, even if your head's being like, what the fuck are you doing? And even if they don't nail some of the other stuff, like, nurse chapel isn't there, and the hurrah, Spock romance is weird, and all those things that they're putting in there that you're like, wait, hold.

01:13:53
Case Aiken
Like, again, JJ has everything be so shiny and the shots be so visually appealing, even if they're not necessarily saying a lot. And the motion is really good in a way that coming off of the Star wars prequels, for example, all the walk and talks in there are less interesting than anything from West Wing. And it's like, how the fuck are the space samurai less interesting for their walk and talks than a scene from a mid budget tv drama? And then this movie they're all running. There's so much energy, there's so much momentum. There's so much kinetic focus in each scene. That's awesome.

01:14:31
Sam Alicea
Yeah, it's amazing. Also, can I just say, we brought back Moderna Ryder. Like, before this, she hadn't done anything in a while since she had basically had to take a break from acting. And so I was really happy to see her because I loved mean, like.

01:14:46
Case Aiken
It'S an easy play to be like, oh, death of the mother, kind of like, that's obviously going to pull at your heartstrings. The same way that the death of the, like, tragic sacrifice scene at the beginning, which also this movie arguably is a reason why Chris Hemsworth gets the part of Thor. And thank God.

01:15:03
Sam Alicea
Absolutely. Yeah, he's fantastic as Thor, and, yes, he's, like, on screen for like, 5 minutes, right?

01:15:12
Paul Sieber
Yeah.

01:15:13
Case Aiken
And he's great in that role.

01:15:14
Sam Alicea
And people are like, what?

01:15:17
Case Aiken
Like, this movie has two of the best Chris's.

01:15:20
Sam Alicea
Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.

01:15:23
Case Aiken
And I would say that Chris Pine at this point is still a little undercooked. Like, he eventually gets there to why people love him so much, but this movie is not the reason why people love him so much. If Kirk or his role as Kirk is a reason to love him, it's Star Trek beyond where he, I think, really comes into the, you know, Chris Hemsworth really nails it in this movie, being a very brief character who we have alluded to a lot because he's just the dad of Captain Kirk, but really does a great job.

01:15:54
Sam Alicea
And it's such an incredibly moving moment. It's just like, oh, gets you. Just gets you. And because that's like the opening, it kind of sets the tone, which is nice. Oh, we're in here for drama and emotions, and we do get that just with plot holes.

01:16:15
Paul Sieber
Right.

01:16:16
Case Aiken
And part of what carries that scene so well is that the score in this movie is also really good. It's a totally new score for Star Trek that has, like, a couple of hooks that go back to the original theme, but it's not alluding to the next gen or the motion picture or the wrath of Khan score. We're not doing anything quite like that. It's totally new in style. It's very optimistic. I think that music is a really big thing that makes this movie work, and I don't think we really talked about that in the episode.

01:16:43
Sam Alicea
Yeah, no, it's got amazing. It also swells at just the right moment. And you're right, it's so optimistic. And I think that's what keeps you going through all these adrenaline shot.

01:16:59
Case Aiken
Like, especially when the escape pods are leaving the Kelvin at the beginning of the movie, the way the notes just start coming in, and it kind of has this sort of playful feeling as they're escaping, and you get that, oh, hey, the tragedy of this is there, but it's also an adventure. And that, I think, is so cool.

01:17:20
Sam Alicea
Yeah.

01:17:21
Case Aiken
Now, that said, is the product placement kind of annoying?

01:17:24
Paul Sieber
Yeah.

01:17:24
Case Aiken
Is the fact that they used a Budweiser facility for their warp corps kind of annoying?

01:17:28
Paul Sieber
Yeah.

01:17:32
Case Aiken
I mean, it's true that time heals all wounds. So a lot of the gripes about this movie are less egregious when you have had at this point now, two full movies since then and also a bunch of really high budget tv shows that have amazing production values. So a movie that's kind of mid is not going to really bother me nearly as much as it would when it's the second most recent film in the franchise.

01:17:59
Sam Alicea
And I think also it probably softens the resentment, or not full resentment. Gosh. Just the criticism is softened a little bit when you can reflect and go, okay, but at least it kind of kick started things back up again. So we get all these other things and so was it the best? No, but because it was okay, because it was pretty good and it was fun with a good cast that people were drawn to, we got more stuff. And that kind of softens also some of those other things.

01:18:40
Case Aiken
It was fun to revisit. It's been a wild couple of years, obviously, for all the stuff in the world, but I've been able to see Paul a lot recently because we're working on a Star Trek thing again. We're doing Farrogate forward, which is set in the wrath of Khan era. And so it is doing some really fun stuff, like the production values on what we are doing right now are really competitive. I don't want to say competitive with this, but really competitive with what? Stuff that people are putting out on web series now and especially, like, higher budget stuff.

01:19:10
Case Aiken
So it's really cool that Star Trek has so much life to it and that we're able to work on these things and that there are fans out there that are able to keep it alive in all the different ways, which we also were a little unsure of what the future of Star Trek fan communities were going to be when this episode was recorded. So there was also a little bit of a grudge about all that, whereas now Paramount's kind of made it clear like, no, we really just were going after the people who were clearly scamming people's money and making us look bad as a result.

01:19:44
Sam Alicea
Right. As they should. Because those people are wrong to do that.

01:19:49
Case Aiken
I mean, I don't want to be like, oh, yeah, Paramount's great. Not saying that.

01:19:55
Sam Alicea
No, but I'm saying in this case, at the very least, right, they did the right thing.

01:20:02
Case Aiken
Yeah.

01:20:05
Case Aiken
So I'm feeling really good about the franchise. I think that when this episode was recorded, we all had just gone through a lot of very emotional stuff behind the scenes just because we had just finished up starship Farrogate and it felt like it was being rested away from us. And the fact that it's not so much and that the series that they've put out have actually been really good, that they're not just putting out popcorn movies. Trying to compete with Marvel is a really good spot to be in right now. So the franchise feels like, in a pretty good shape with a lot of fan community support, and I don't want to say a blind eye because they're aware of it.

01:20:47
Case Aiken
It's a Star Trek fan film on our thing, but the relationship is a lot more positive than it felt like it was going to be at the time that this episode was recorded. So it's a cool spot to be in. I'm really glad that to still be able to talk Trek, it's such a fun franchise, and they're doing really good things with it now. And I think a lot of the fans that were concerned about the early, about discovery and about all that, they're still out there and there's still some toxic fandom, but I think that all the series have kind of, like, course corrected from the issues that they had. So we're in a good space.

01:21:26
Sam Alicea
Yeah, I think so. I mean, listen, I think that wherever there are people, there might be some toxicity.

01:21:34
Paul Sieber
Yes.

01:21:35
Sam Alicea
So I just think that it's just nice to be able to have fandom and be able to have new stuff and have stuff, and then sometimes you just need to take a break from fandom and just don't like everything so it disappears from your page. Just don't even pay attention to it. Just like what you like. That's what I think.

01:21:56
Case Aiken
Yeah. So I'm glad we talked about this one. I'm really glad to hear your thoughts on it because we've definitely talked about it privately, but I don't think under the structure of an episode before, it's nice to kind of go back to that one. It's going to be a little while before we get to the Star Trek into Darkness episode, which I will warn everyone is a long episode. It was me and Bret Eaglestone one, just talking Star Trek for a really long time. And Bret and I can get into a really good vibe when we talk, but I think it was like a two hour episode.

01:22:27
Sam Alicea
Well, I would expect nothing less. We're going to go into darkness on.

01:22:32
Case Aiken
That one, but in the meantime. Yeah, so this was really fun audio quality. Next time is going to be a bit better because it was recorded with Ben and Addie in studio, so that part is really good. The next time we talk about an old episode, we'll be talking about both amazing Spiderman one and two, which I'm excited to talk about, if only because Andrew Garfield as Spiderman has had a bit of a reckoning thanks to no way home. So I think that'll be kind of cool. But, yeah, Spiderman is also a property that's kind of in a good place right now. So some of the toxicity I felt about the lesser entries in the franchise at that point aren't really going to play a part now. And so I'm kind of excited just to sort of revisit them both.

01:23:14
Case Aiken
It's wild that we did both in the same one. What a waste.

01:23:20
Sam Alicea
There's so much to talk about. And you were like, we're going to shove these together.

01:23:24
Case Aiken
Well, especially because it's so much fun to do a sequel where you're stuck with the first one. And I'm like, why did we do both at the same time? And I think I just didn't want to deal with it.

01:23:33
Sam Alicea
Fair enough.

01:23:33
Case Aiken
And we kind of just rushed into it all. So I don't know. Looking forward to that. So as far as the main show goes, last time we had that thing you do and following that, we've got. Oh, God, we've got the Dungeons and Dragons episode coming up.

01:23:51
Sam Alicea
But don't worry, guys, in the middle of that, it'll be Highlander two, the quickening.

01:23:55
Case Aiken
Right. Well, but you know what the crazy part is in terms of just our timing, because this was not planned. We did time dungeons and dragons to come out when the Dungeons and Dragons movie comes out. But this is also a Chris Pine movie.

01:24:08
Sam Alicea
Yes.

01:24:09
Case Aiken
So this is actually kind of perfect, and I didn't plan that. That's wonderful timing.

01:24:13
Sam Alicea
Really great. I love it. It's basically Chris Pine made it happen. He put into the universe.

01:24:21
Case Aiken
Yeah. And he's an actor that I with.

01:24:23
Sam Alicea
His comfortable because he doesn't have a smartphone.

01:24:26
Case Aiken
Well, that's just a smart.

01:24:30
Sam Alicea
One.

01:24:30
Case Aiken
It's weird to be, like, envious of Chris Pine because I forget if I mentioned in this episode, back when they first were looking to make this movie, they reached out to Star Trek fan film groups to see if they had anyone they wanted to put in for Kirk. It was a long shot, but they still wanted to reach out and just see if anyone was up for it. And my name and headshot was submitted, and I never had an audition or anything like that. But I did send in a video audition, but it was, like, crude because it was 2008 at the time.

01:24:59
Sam Alicea
Right.

01:25:00
Case Aiken
So I always was a little bit like, ooh, that could have been me. Now, obviously, Chris Pine already had credits. He was already a real actor, whereas I had been an extra in some stuff and then had a couple of lines in a few Star Trek fan films. But there always was that little bit of it. But, yeah, no, I see it.

01:25:21
Sam Alicea
Yeah, no, it's great. One of my favorite TikToks is just a girl who picks pictures of Chris Pine, and she says he dresses like a bisexual lesbian, and she just finds his best outfits on his days off. And she's not wrong. It's great. He just wears whatever he wants. I love him for that.

01:25:43
Case Aiken
Well, and he's definitely aged better than I have. So again, hats off to you, paramount. You picked the right one. Not that I was ever seriously in the running. I just need to be very clear about that. I don't honestly think he took my role, unlike friend of the show Justin Liebergan and his relationship with Miles Teller, where that's stank fair. In a much better world we would have been in if Justin had been in all the parts that Miles Teller had been cast in.

01:26:12
Sam Alicea
Agree. Hard agree.

01:26:13
Case Aiken
Especially fanforstic. Jesus Christ.

01:26:15
Sam Alicea
Huh. Yeah. Agree.

01:26:18
Case Aiken
Yeah.

01:26:19
Case Aiken
Much better world.

01:26:20
Sam Alicea
Much better world.

01:26:21
Paul Sieber
But what are you.

01:26:21
Sam Alicea
That's actually the timeline we should have been in.

01:26:24
Case Aiken
That's the Kelvin timeline that we want.

01:26:26
Sam Alicea
To be in to avoid the last six years. There's no Covid in that timeline.

01:26:33
Case Aiken
Somehow. Yeah, somehow.

01:26:37
Sam Alicea
That's the one piece of the butterfly effect. If only we can go back in time, make sure that Justin gets that role.

01:26:45
Case Aiken
Yeah.

01:26:46
Case Aiken
Oh, God. It was like some stupid party movie. I forget what it was called, but it was, like, one of, like, earliest parts, and it was just like some dumb found footage style, like, everyone's going wild at this party house type thing movie.

01:27:00
Paul Sieber
I don't know.

01:27:01
Case Aiken
Anyway, I'll probably cut this part. Maybe not. It might be funny.

01:27:04
Sam Alicea
Maybe we are at the end. I was going to say an end credit.

01:27:09
Case Aiken
Well, it might go post. Anyway, so like I said, next time we are going to be talking about dungeons and dragons. The most recent episode is that thing you do. You should check those out because those are both great. We had Keith from we have issues and jukebox vertigo on for that thing you do. And we've got Katie and Ben over from amateur. Ish productions who are doing amazing stuff with tabletop d d stuff over on their Twitch channel, and they are starting a podcast soon with all that very cool stuff, like just awesome people. Great conversations for both. So I hope you check out all of that. And yeah, until next time, pass it on.

01:27:48
Sam Alicea
Yeah, pass it on.

01:27:50
Paul Sieber
Yay.

01:27:51
Case Aiken
Breaks cool.

01:27:51
Sam Alicea
This is for case. This is for case.

01:27:55
Case Aiken
The episode goes here. Everyone, please.

01:27:57
Sam Alicea
The episode goes right here, case, just in case you're sleep deprived when you regret doing all this stuff.

01:28:03
Case Aiken
I will in all likelihood be nursing a child while I'm editing this episode.

01:28:08
Sam Alicea
Yeah, that makes sense.

01:28:10
Case Aiken
Not nursing well, not lactating, giving her.

01:28:13
Sam Alicea
A yeah, I got you.

01:28:18
Case Aiken
Although it's not that weird for grown men to lactate in times of extreme emotional stress.

01:28:22
Sam Alicea
That's true. It can happen.

01:28:26
Speaker 5
Hello, wonderful listener Pat Edwards here, co host of the let's rewatch podcast on this very network. For those of you who don't know me, I'm an author and a game designer. Specifically, I work in the tabletop role playing gaming industry. Well, I recently co founded a production studio called Storytellers Forge. Our first big book launch has arrived. The black ballad is a brutal and bloody TTRPG adventure that answers the question, what happens when the heroes die? Easily adaptable to multiple gaming systems, including fifth Edition D d, the Black Ballad is the perfect campaign to start after.

01:28:57
Paul Sieber
A total party kill.

01:28:58
Speaker 5
We are immensely proud of this epic Tome and have assembled a stellar team of collaborators. The Black Ballad features a soundtrack by Diamorte, downloadable NPC audio snippets recorded by Carlos Farrow from Gears of War, Assassin's Creed, and some truly gorgeous illustrations spearheaded by our art director James Masingo from Borderlands two and Shadow Run. Our crowdfunding campaign goes live March 7 on backer kit, and I would be grateful beyond measure if you would consider ordering a copy of the black ballad today.

01:29:28
Case Aiken
Cpov certainpov.com.