Star Trek V: The Final Frontier is a movie that begs the audience to ask many questions. Why does God need a Starship? Why is Captain Kirk climbing the mountain? How many “Rows” are in “Row Row Row Your Boat”? And more! From Farragut Forward, William Jay joins Case and Sam to attempt to answer a few of these questions.

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Overview

In the latest episode of the podcast, hosts Case Aiken and Sam Alicea, along with guest William J., delve into the complexities of "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier," celebrating the film's significance within the franchise on its 35th anniversary. They provide an engaging overview of the movie's production challenges, particularly highlighting William Shatner's directorial debut and the budget constraints faced. The discussion covers character dynamics, including an analysis of Kirk, Spock, McCoy, and the antagonist Sybok, as well as critiques of pacing, plot structure, and the film’s attempts at humor. The hosts explore pivotal scenes, such as the Yosemite sequence and the galactic barrier climax, while offering constructive suggestions for improving character development and overall narrative flow. The episode concludes with reflections on the film's legacy within the Star Trek canon and a look at upcoming podcast topics, ensuring listeners are informed and engaged in the broader Star Trek conversation.

Notes

Introduction and Overview (00:00 - 10:01)

• Podcast hosts Case Aiken and Sam Alicea introduce the topic: Star Trek V: The Final Frontier

• Guest William J. joins to discuss the film

• Mention of Star Trek's 35th anniversary and William Shatner's recent comments

Movie Context and Production (10:02 - 20:24)

• Discussion of Star Trek V's place in the franchise

• Comparison to previous films directed by Leonard Nimoy

• William Shatner's directorial debut and its challenges

• Budget and production issues highlighted

Character Analysis and Plot Elements (20:24 - 28:41)

• Examination of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy's roles

• Discussion of Sybok as the antagonist

• Critique of the film's pacing and structure

Yosemite Scenes and Ship Issues (28:41 - 40:23)

• Analysis of the extended Yosemite sequence

• Critique of the Enterprise's technical problems

• Discussion of the film's attempts at humor

Alien Encounters and Rescue Mission (40:23 - 52:10)

• Examination of the Nimbus III setting and inhabitants

• Analysis of the rescue mission sequence

• Critique of Uhura's dance scene and its place in the film

Sybok's Powers and Ship Takeover (52:10 - 01:01:40)

• Discussion of Sybok's psychological abilities

• Analysis of the Enterprise crew's reactions

• Critique of the logic behind Sybok's plan

God Entity and Galactic Barrier (01:01:40 - 01:08:31)

• Examination of the film's portrayal of a god-like entity

• Discussion of the galactic barrier concept

• Critique of the film's climax and resolution

Visual Effects and Set Design (01:08:31 - 01:18:07)

• Analysis of the film's special effects

• Discussion of budgetary constraints on visuals

• Comparison to effects in other Star Trek films

Proposed Improvements (01:18:07 - 01:26:25)

• Suggestions for improving the film's plot

• Ideas for better character development

• Proposed changes to the film's pacing

Alternative Plot Ideas (01:26:25 - 01:35:20)

• Discussion of potential alternative storylines

• Suggestions for improving Sybok's character

• Ideas for enhancing the film's themes

Franchise Impact and Legacy (01:35:20 - 01:44:09)

• Analysis of the film's impact on the Star Trek franchise

• Discussion of its place in Star Trek canon

• Comparison to other odd-numbered Star Trek films

Final Thoughts and Recommendations (01:44:09 - 01:54:24)

• Overall assessment of the film's strengths and weaknesses

• Recommendations for potential viewers

• Discussion of the film's place in Star Trek history

Wrap-up and Future Topics (01:54:24 - 02:16:12)

• Summary of key points discussed

• Mention of upcoming podcast topics

• Information on where to find the hosts and guest online

Transcription

00:00
Case
It's fine. It's all fine. Everything's fine. I, I don't get it. I, I just don't goddamn get it.

00:08
Sam
They also get back totally fine too.

00:10
William
I have a worse time going through the streets of PA with potholes than they did going through the galactic barrier.

00:17
Sam
They get through and then they can go back very easily. Like there's, it's not a barrier. It's.

00:23
William
It's not a barrier. It's like. It's an easy pass toll. And it's not even that because. Welcome to certain POVs, another Pass podcast with Case and Sam where we take another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. Let's see how we could have fixed them.

00:46
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another past podcast. I'm Case Aiken and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Sam Alicea.

00:52
Sam
Hi.

00:54
Case
Now, Sam, we are, we're journeying back into the future, which considering that we just did a Star Trek movie last time, you know, we're doing more Star Trek guys. We're doing Star Trek. You know why? Because I love Star Trek. I love it quite a bit. I love it so much that I often do projects on the side that are Star Trek inspired. And so today, for a conversation about a movie era, Star Trek film, because eventually we had to talk about Star Trek 5. Guys, today we're joined by one of my friends from filming Star Trek stuff. We've got William J.

01:30
William
Hey, everybody. Hi, Sam. Hi, Kay. It's good to see you guys.

01:34
Sam
Hey, welcome.

01:35
Case
We have known each other through Star Trek conventions, through Star Trek film shoots, through a Batman shoot which we actually talked about on this show not too long ago because you were the Batman in the oath.

01:47
William
Oh, that's a secret. You're not supposed to know that, I think.

01:52
Case
Yeah, so we, we've been talking Trek for goddamn close to a decade now at this point. You know what? It's finally time that we actually have you on. So I'm glad that you're here because we, I wanted to have you on to talk about something. Star Trek for a long time now. And it seemed like, yeah, you know what? This is the exact right moment. It's the 35th anniversary of this movie. Let's, let's get you on and let's counter the counter gaslighting that William Shatner was trying to do to the Internet in relation to this film.

02:24
William
Yeah, I mean, you put it, you said it perfectly. We've been, we've been talking about Star Trek for a long Time. And I think, God, it might have been five, six years ago where you first started saying, you know, we talk so much, maybe we should record some of it. And at the time, I think were debating, do we do Star Trek 5? Do we do Star Trek 6? Since then, I know I've listened to the episodes where you've talked to some other people and you've talked about some of the other mo. It was eventually in one of the last film shoots were doing, it was, do we talk about five? Do we talk about six? And I remember saying, you know, six seems like the safer bet. But five is. That's where the good conversation is.

03:04
Case
So, yeah, we were talking about six from the lens of it being a good movie for it being a fifth episode, but it had to deal with some issues behind the scenes. One of the issues was that the movie right before it was fucking terrible. And so faith in the franchise was, was sh. Shattered by Shatner.

03:24
William
Shat Nerd, if you will.

03:27
Sam
Yes, it was Shatner. I love it.

03:30
Case
So that was the, So I don't want people to think it's like, wait, you want to do Star Trek 6 on this show as it is? It's like, yeah, sure, we've done some movies that are like great movies. Like we did Titanic once, you know, which is like, empirically just a great movie. So, yeah, sometimes we'll try to polish a gem, but we didn't feel the need to do that for Star Trek 6. Star Trek VI was more of a look behind the scenes for it. Meanwhile, talking about Star Trek V, there is just a we of things to bring up in discussion of it. From the fact that it is written, directed and starred James D. Kirk.

04:03
William
James, James D. Kirk himself.

04:06
Case
Considering the fact that it was written, directed and starred William Shatner, you could just see how this is going to go in a weird direction. And I, I, I like Shatner overall. I, I think that he's generally speaking like a better guy than he's not.

04:21
William
And you know what? Not to spoil it for anybody who's listening to this and may not know too much about it, but think about it in the context of the time. Leonard Nimoy directed Star Trek 3 and no One, and he was also like an unproven director. It was his first directorial debut and it worked out really well. And then they gave him Star Trek 4 and it worked out even better. So think about it. I guess I can't Imagine I wasn't around back then. I didn't see the movie at the time. I, I've never been interested enough to go back and read maybe old news clippings, but I can only assume people I can imagine might have thought, oh, Nimoy worked out. Maybe Shatner will.

05:05
Case
Yeah. And Shatner at this point had directed episodes of TJ Hooker. So it's not like he had. He was coming completely blind to the franchise. This is a franchise that is built on uplifting its actors into directorial positions. It's just this was not a particularly good example of that. Such a bad example of it, that it has created all kinds of memes. Particularly. We do have to ask the question out loud, which is that Captain Kirk is climbing the mountain. Why is he climbing the mountain?

05:31
William
Oh, I know this one. I know this one.

05:34
Sam
Anyone who watched the movie knows it's.

05:36
William
There because it's there. Yeah.

05:40
Case
Yeah.

05:40
Sam
So isn't that the reason people climb mountains in general? Like it's there.

05:47
William
You know, to defend that. I'm. Then that's going to be. I'm coming into this discussion with the concept of. I'm going, I gave this movie another pass, wink. And I tried really hard to focus on. I don't want to focus on the negative. I'm going to look for positives, maybe things that can redeem this thing. And I'll just say as a kid, if you asked me, if my mother came and asked me, why are you climbing that tree? You might fall off it and hurt yourself, bleed or something. And I'm pretty sure 7 year old me might have said, well, because it's there, might as well do it. I don't know if that applies to a 50 something year old man, but you know, there you go.

06:29
Case
Yeah. I mean it's a weird scene from the standpoint of like, it's a lot of scene. It's, it's surprising that he has no, I mean, it's just there to like the fall portion of it is just there to be like a quick action beat in this whole thing. Because otherwise it's like, well, why is he doing it completely. What is it? Free solo climbing.

06:48
Sam
Yeah.

06:49
Case
Is the term, like, why is he doing it that way? That seems like needlessly dangerous for a person who in theory has a lot of responsibilities in his life. And even if there's the whole thing of like, I'm gonna die alone, like, it's still kind of a. Yeah.

07:02
William
I mean, I mean it's a silly beat. You. And since we just. Since we've pretty much just gone deep into the discussion, like, that first part of the movie with Yosemite is like a solid what, 15, 20 minutes?

07:14
Case
30 minutes.

07:14
William
30 minutes.

07:15
Sam
So long.

07:16
Case
Like, it might be 27 minutes, but like, I, I stopped it when were finally off of Yosemite and I had to tweet out loud. Just like, it's a half hour into this movie. It is too long.

07:26
William
There is a lot to break. Break down in that scene. I'm right there with you. The climbing thing, I think as someone who do. Does enjoy Captain Kirk. He's my favorite captain. Not because of maybe his captain style, but more like his charisma. Because I have friends in the military and there are Trekkies and we've had these discussions where they will break down based on military code and conduct, why Captain Kirk is not a captain they would follow into combat. Like, absolutely. And I'm like, from a military standpoint, you're right. Like, this man is reckless, he's somewhat dangerous. I'd much rather follow Picard possibly into combat or something like that. But I don't know. I think that maybe this is Shatner's attempt to misguidedly try to make Kirk a man of action after.

08:23
William
Because if you think about the context of Star Treks one through four, has Captain Kirk really had a lot of, like, physicality to him? I don't think so.

08:33
Case
Well, he gets the fight at the end of three. Yeah, but which was as much a response to 2 with him not being on the same. In the same scene with. With Khan.

08:44
William
Yeah.

08:45
Case
So, like, I, I think that this is like, this is one of those things about Star Trek movies versus TV shows, which is that the characters get Flanderized so much in the movie franchises, even the good movies like Star Trek. First Contact is one of my favorite Star Trek movies. But Picard is so much more of an extreme version of the character than he is in the TV show at any point.

09:06
Sam
Yeah, everyone gets kind of ramped up.

09:09
Case
It's just a thing that they do for the movies. And part of that is that the actors start getting. They start figuring out what they think is the most fun part about their character or what they want to push back on from their character. And it's a movie, so it's a lot of shorthand for the sequences with them. All this is probably the movie that is the most to blame for the Kirk isms and the Kirk reputation as Being like kind of this, like, hotshot kind of character in a way that like, really the rest aren't. Aren't quite that much and the TV show certainly isn't.

09:41
Sam
Yeah, he goes in hot and heavy. Honestly, when they drop onto the planet to save the hostages and wow, this was a very, like, going back to the military point, I'm like, yeah, I don't know if that operation would work. I didn't probably get the hostages killed.

10:02
William
I have notes I will bring up about that scene later on. Not to jump ahead too much, but you know what, case? You're right. This movie not only is, I think, the most damaging to his character, but it's certainly the cementing point of the old adage, all the odd numbered Star Trek movies are bad.

10:23
Case
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. Because 1 and 3 are, you know, just like they. They each have their issues. Like one just needs to find an editor and Three is shot like a TV show. But, like, just aside from that, like, they're, you know, perfectly fine entries in this in the franchise.

10:39
William
I adore Star Trek 3. It's the first Star Trek thing I ever saw. And yeah, you're right. I think its weakness is that Leonard Nimoy is a great storyteller. He has a great story to tell, but he doesn't have the skills yet or the knowledge that he needs in order to visualize it proper. Like, you reference the fight that Kirk has with the Klingon at the end of that movie. If you go back and I don't remember if in the episode that you guys did on the movie, you talked about it. That fight has zero music. Like, there is just like the grunts and no background noise and it is painful to watch. On top of the fact that the choreography is just atrocious.

11:17
Case
It shows the choreography. I don't remember if we talked about the music, but.

11:21
William
Or the absence of it, but yeah, yeah.

11:23
Case
I mean, and as evidenced by the fact that, like, the next one is way better. Like, Leonard Nimoy finds his footing once. Once he's got something under his belt. But, you know, it's difficult toss a person into the sequel to, you know, such a successful movie as Star Trek 2 and expect them to pull off something as good or whatever. I mean, three, the main fault of it is that it is coming in the wake of Star Trek 2. Arguably, one of the big faults of this movie is that coming in the wake of Star Trek 4. So there is that, but the point is that one is just too long. But it's a good Star Trek story as a movie. And three is, you know, a little unpolished, but like is, you know, a perfectly fine Star Trek story.

12:09
Case
This is the one where it becomes like the odds are bad rule, as you said. This is the one that cements that rule. And you know, it's wild how, how strong that rule is for this franchise.

12:22
William
Yeah. And you know what? I don't, as a general thing, I don't, I never cared for the rule because I have a soft spot for most of these movies. Yeah. One is the slow motion picture, but you know, it's the, it's a, it's a brilliant story at its heart. It's just horribly paced. Star Trek 3, its biggest weakness, aside from a new director, is that it falls between two of the possibly arguably most brilliant movies in the franchise. Certainly in the original series, 2 and 4 are top notch and then 5 falls between. 5 has so many faults. But then just to like really beat a dead horse and just really throw dirt on it and spit on it happens to fall between four and six. Four being, you know, one of the most commercially successful Star Trek films of all time.

13:11
William
And then six, basically the perfect swan song for this cast and crew. A brilliant movie and my personal favorite.

13:18
Case
So, yes, it's sandwiched between the one with the whales and. And a swan song.

13:22
William
Yeah. So it was. Ironically, considering it's Captain Kirk who's never faced a win scenario, this movie was a no win scenario. In case, I don't know if you want to mention real quick, just in passing, how we got to the fact that Shatner directed this movie.

13:39
Case
If you want to go into greater detail, because I read the story but I cannot remember all the details.

13:43
William
Yeah. Like I won't bore anybody, but I think it's just fascinating. People who may know a little bit about William Shatner know that William Shatner, especially back then in the 80s 70s, had a. I don't want to throw rocks, but he, I think it's pretty well documented he had a bit of an ego when he came back for Star Trek 4. Basically he renegotiated his contract. That said, Nemo has gotten to direct two of these. I'm only coming back if the next one, Star Trek 5, whatever it is, I get to direct it. So he basically put his weight around and, you know, held up the movie Star Trek 4 for ransom for a little bit and said, you know, Kirk's not coming back to tell this story unless I'm allowed to direct Five.

14:24
William
And at that point, you know, Harv Bennett, the producer of the franchise, had no reason to doubt him. He'd been working on TJ Hooker. Nimoy had worked out. So, you know, it's just a funny little thing.

14:35
Case
Yeah, that's. I had forgotten that. But yeah, that is a tidbit that was discussed in front of the show. Ed Gross's the 50 Year mission, but yeah, man. Yeah, well, and then you get into the Next Gen movies, which also continue the tradition. But there's something to love in every Star Trek movie. Like, the worst Star Trek movie is still a Star Trek movie.

14:56
William
Oh, absolutely. With the exception of Star Trek Into Darkness. Yeah. And even then, even then.

15:01
Case
The opening scene is perfectly fine. Star Trek. It's just there are problems. And we talked about that for a long time on the show. We have gotten through. This might be it. Wait, we have done. We did the motion picture. We've done three, we're now doing five. We've done Generations. We have done. We've done Nemesis. Sorry. And we've done Insurrection. We did Into Darkness. Yeah. We have done every. This is the last odd Star Trek movie for us to cover on the show.

15:29
William
Yeah. But honestly, I think the Kelvin movie is actually inverse the rule. I think the 09 movie is good for what it is, and I think beyond is actually quite great.

15:40
Case
Well, you know, it works. So there's the whole. If you put Galaxy Quest in between Nemesis, then it keeps the odd even rule very well.

15:52
William
But yeah, no, anyway, I didn't mean to derail a conversation, if you want to.

15:55
Case
No, no, no, it's okay. I mean. Yeah, well, look, the thing is that this movie has stuff to like about it. Like there, like, I. I actually rather like the Dunness of this movie. Like, especially the opening sequence that has that. And then, like, you know, when we're. We're dealing with Cybox people and they feel. It feels like here's a desert world where he's like, rallied an army. I'm here for that. Like, I like that spoiler. That's going to be some of my notes. It wasn't intentionally supposed to be a Dune movie, but, like, they're kind of just doing a Dune movie for a good chunk of this. And you know what? I'm. I'm okay with that and wish that this was a bit more of a Dune movie. Those parts are pretty good.

16:33
Case
I don't mind the conceit of the shakedown crews or whatever headcanon you want to do because I do like the that the Enterprise should have been a rebranded Yorktown like that Gene Roddenberry put forth as the idea for how to deal with it. I don't, I don't mind either scenario where the ship is falling apart and Scotty is pushed to his limit as a source of comedy. I, they go way too far and way too slapsticky. But like a little, you know, as a concept, like I'm fine with having like bugs being a reason for some of the.

17:02
William
Yeah, I mean, I understand they're a story vehicle to get around the fact that, you know, this movie has a smaller budget. You can't really have like crazy set pieces or big battles. So you know, the action is gonna be much smaller scale. And you know, the Constitution class, the Enterprise, even though it's a very old ship, it was still built to be a top of the line ship and it should be able to hold its own. And we've seen it hold its own against so much. It's kind of like what happens in Star Trek 3 where it's like it's all automated. That's why one single bird of prey can knock it out. Right. Like they even mention it in Generations and I think they mentioned it in Star Trek 3 and it's mentioned a bunch of times.

17:37
William
A bird of prey is by itself no match against state of the art Federation cruiser. So the conceits are to a point, I think they jumped the shark at some points. I think there's some things that this movie does just, you know, to like get around its limitations. And I think sometimes Star Trek is really good when it has to like get creative around the limited budget. And like the original show was a master of that. And I think actually that's where this movie has some of its strengths. And unfortunately a lot of its weaknesses come from the fact that this movie is basically a blown up version of a TOS episode. And take that for what you will. Is that positive or negative? I guess it depends.

18:18
William
After Star Trek 2, 3 and 4, which were like these three movie serial, big budget, like adventures, this is a much smaller scale thing. Even though you're talking about big science fiction topics and metaphysical like philosophy, like it tries to tackle philosophy, but I think it does in the same way like maybe a kindergarten teacher would tackle philosophy.

18:42
Case
Yeah, it's, you know, it's, it made me think of two episodes of tos. The, the who Mourns Adonis episode where the crew actually meet Apollo.

18:51
William
Yeah.

18:52
Case
And then I forget the name of the episode, but the One with Trelane, the.

18:55
William
Yeah, the Squire of Gothos.

18:58
Case
Okay. Yes. See, so, like, this is why we have you here. But both of those are dealing with similar themes where it's like, well, what is it like to meet an omnipotent being and, like, have to tackle with them, you know, philosophically or mentally? Not mentally, but intellectually, I guess. I think both are more. Are more refined takes on, like, what humanity can do against the divine. And the series loves it because Q is great.

19:25
William
Yeah. And I'll do you one better. There's an episode of the Animated series from the 70s, and not many people know about this show or have seen it. There is an episode which I don't. I never found any research that confirms this, but I have to believe that Shatner, when he was helping craft the story, remembered recording that episode, because the premise of that episode, it's an episode called the Magics of Magus to the premise of that episode is that the Enterprise is sent to the center of the universe on a research mission to see what's in there, because no one's ever done it before, so why not? And basically, they find a planet where the rules of physics are a little skewed and magic seems to be real. And they meet, basically a group of beings that seem to be celestial.

20:07
William
And one of them is a character that Spock at the end goes like, you know, Kirk based on everything that we saw. That was Lucifer, that was the devil we just met. And Kirk is like, huh? Okay.

20:20
Case
God damn this. This episode or this movie is such a ripoff. That is.

20:25
William
Your reaction is basically what I think is the accurate reaction when I tell you that.

20:30
Case
Right. I. I have seen every episode of the Animated Series, but it's been, like, a decade since the last time I looked at it. Yeah, man. God. The. The. It's frustrating because the Animated Series is, like, infamously, actually, like, quite good, despite the fact that it has, like, its own, like, production issues behind the scenes. Yes, because that's, like, clearly what it was. Because the original pitch for this wasn't just that they meet a being that's like a God and it turns out to be more like a devil. They wanted to meet actual devil. Like, there's. This movie is just so blunt relative to what it should be like. Star Trek actually loves this kind of a story. It just has none of the nuance of what those better entries would be like.

21:13
William
I think there's nuance in the movie, but certainly not in its A plot. I think in the B plot, when we talk about Cyboc and some of that stuff. I think there's some nuance there, but also, like, going back and trying to, like, steer the conversation to one of the positives that I want to highlight straight out of the bat from this movie when it comes to, like, the Yosemite scenes, that first half hour. And I will point out, by the way, this is not a very long movie. I think this movie is under two hours of runtime. So we spend a third. Third of the movie in Yosemite, which is insane to me, putting in numbers.

21:43
William
But what I wanted to mention, and I don't know how you guys feel about it, like, the original Star Trek, now that we've had so many other Star Treks, and a lot of them are, like, ensemble pieces where the cast all have, like, their own episodes and it's like, a bigger deal. The original Star Trek. For as much as we love Scotty and Uhura and Chekhov and Sulu and all of that stuff, the original Star Trek was about the big three.

22:04
Case
Yep.

22:04
William
Kirk, Spock and McCoy. And I think this movie, absolutely with that understanding. And Shatner being obviously the bigger of the three, you know, he. That was his mentality. Like, those were the three people who were credited in the original show. When you saw, like, the ship flying by in the original intro credits of Star Trek, it was those three characters. And I think this movie actually does a great job in their dialogue and the scenes that those three share together, like, with one or two little exceptions, I think this is a really good Kirk, Spock, McCoy story. I don't know what you guys think about that, but that's how I feel about it.

22:37
Case
I. I actually agree with you. That is a thing about the Yosemite scenes that frustrates me because it's too long. But I do. I do like the fact that we get the time. I actually like the Row, Row youw Boat stuff. Like, it's fantastic.

22:50
Sam
That. That stuff is great. I actually feel like if you could cut down a little bit on the, like, on the mountain scene. Even though I actually think that, like, Spock, like, standing behind him, kind of distracting him is hilarious. And it's just, like, so long, right?

23:06
William
Yeah, it's all too long.

23:09
Case
Spock showing up should distract Kirk pretty fast. Right? And then we should find out, then the joke should be that Kirk actually had his own, like, rocket thing to prevent him from falling to his death.

23:18
Sam
Right.

23:18
Case
Like, that would be a funnier part there.

23:21
Sam
But the best part is. But the best part of the whole Yosemite is the row, row your boat scene because it's just so incredibly perfect. It is like the dynamics, the dialogue.

23:34
William
I agree with Sam completely. Like, the dialogue between those three is fantastic. It's like Kirk is this Iowa boy, so he loves camping. And McCoy's the Southern boy, so it makes sense that he's like bourbon and beans. Which, by the way, I've tried. I've. I've done that recipe. It's very explosive combination. He's right. I think it's just hilarious. Like, especially row, row your boat. Like they. First of all, for some reason, Kirk calls it row, row, row your boat. Like a very thing.

24:01
Sam
It's a Shatner thing.

24:02
William
It's such a Shatner thing where he has like four extra rows to the song name. But anyway, it's like, then they start the steroid singing, like, row, row your boat. And then they turn to Spock. It's like, spock, take it. And Spock's like, I'm trying to endeavor the meaning of the words. Is life a dream? And then like, it's followed up perfectly where the scene where they're all like going to sleep and it's like, good night, Jim. Good night, Spock. Good night, Bones. And then, yeah, Spock, life is not a dream. And then Shatner just ends the scene. It does go too long. But he goes like. Shatner just does this little side take where he just says, I just don't know. It's hilarious. Yeah, it's hilarious.

24:41
Case
That stuff I like, do I need. I mean, like, look, it's good to do a check in on what's going on with Sulu and Chekhov, but like, that scene isn't adding anything.

24:49
William
Oh, no, it's just to give him something. And I'll tell you what, I don't know if you and Sam knew this. That josamity scene in the campfire was even longer. Like if you read the novel of Star Trek 5, there's this whole extra subplot where. And I'll ask you guys, did you notice what Spock called the marshmallows in the movie?

25:08
Case
Marshmallows? Oh, yeah. The whole thing about Bones re, like, yeah, with Spock. By, like changing the data that Spock was going to look up in. In preparation for the camping trip.

25:19
William
Yeah, I don't know if Sam and like, your listeners will know this. Basically, Bones plays a practical joke on Spock. He reworks the computer, knowing that Spock is so anal about everything that he will research camping instead of just going Camping. So Spock, when he's doing research on camping, discovers that the Earth tradition of marshmallows. And McCoy goes in there and as a joke, changes the database so that every single mention of the word marshmallow is changed to marshmallow. It's. Thank God they cut it. Because I'm like, it's so unnecessary.

25:55
Case
Well, assuming that was cut, as opposed to an introduction for the novelization. But it. Which I'm just not sure about.

26:01
William
I don't know.

26:02
Sam
They kind of hint at it though, right? Because. Because at one point McClure goes, and what else did you learn? So, like, there's a. There's a hint to it.

26:10
William
Sam picked up on it. Sam picked up on. It's there. Like, there's hints of it still there.

26:16
Sam
Yeah. So it's still inspired there. But, like, yeah, it's good that they did not include it because again, 30 minutes practically in this space, and it's like this. It's a little too. It's so long, even though it's great stuff. And like, if it was anywhere else and the movie itself. Right. Because it's. You know, this is the thing. Sometimes the Star Trek. Is that what's so admirable? Like, the thing. The subjects that Star Trek tries to tackle. But sometimes when you only have a short amount of time, when you think about these larger, esoteric, kind of giant ideas, so hard to make sure that it's clear. And in this movie, there's a lot of things going on and it just feels a little slow. Like, the pacing is really strange on this film.

27:07
Case
Yeah, well. And also, like, the Yosemite stuff doesn't really play into the later themes, as far as I can tell. I mean, like, maybe you could make an excuse for, like, oh, face to Face with God. There's something.

27:18
William
I think it. Actually, I think you can work it into the subplot. I think it. The only time that I think that you just have many scenes you can. And not the rock climbing stuff that's pretty much meaningless.

27:30
Case
But it doesn't have to be. That's the thing. Like, it doesn't have to be. And this. This is like pitch territory stuff. But this is just saying, like, man, wouldn't it be great if the Yosemite stuff, like, played more into, like, the big themes about meeting God and, like, and having your pain taken away from you and all that stuff.

27:44
Sam
I will say this. I will defend it just a little bit. I do think it should be shorter, but I do think that there is. Once you once cybek is on the ship. He does say something about the bond between the three of them being too strong. And so I do think that it. The scenes in the beginning do reinforce for you how strong their bonds are. Because, you know, we've had a few movies in between. Now they're more ensemble pieces. Like William said before, we're having this moment where we're recognizing in, you know, the big three, you know, in Shatner's mind, I mean. Yes, but also Shatner. This is Shatner's brain, right? And we. We know he's. He's got an ego. And so it's kind of reminding people, like, oh, this is. This is a core group.

28:33
Case
I don't disagree with that part of it. Like, it is good character stuff here, but it would also just be nice if it dealt with the larger. The larger plots of this movie specifically. And not just was. Right, because. Because that's the kind of scene that you put in a TV show episode to that to just have the running theme about the characters be that they are, you know, these. These linked characters that. That have this, like, deep relationship with each other and that. That is a hurdle that the. That the villain's plot has to overcome against them, which is. Is all fine. But I'm saying that specifically, like, climbing the mountain itself, you could make a whole point about. About how it's an effort to, like, you know, go the final frontier, whatever the fuck you want to call it. Like, they don't.

29:18
Case
They don't introduce into the actual text of it what themes are. And, like, the whole meme of Shatner, like, sitting there talking about the passions, like, to love the mountain that he says about it. All that is part of this idea of the final frontier, but it's not expressed in any sort of language that we, the audience, are meant to really pick up on. Like, I think it's too deep in Shatner's own headcanon about, like, how this all plays out and what these things mean. And it's not enough, is not provided for us to actually glom onto and really develop it.

29:53
William
I agree with you 100%. Like, yeah, and not, like, this movie has a very troubled history. It's not just the fact that he had a new director. Like, anybody who read in passing articles about the making of Star Trek 5.

30:06
Case
Like, I think ILM was not available for this strike in the middle of it all. Like, they.

30:13
William
They had to rewrite a bunch of stuff because Shatner would veto some stuff. And then I think Nemo had some creative control and there was like, there was just a lot, like, they didn't get. They. Then there were casting issues. They wanted Sean Connery a cyboc. Just a crazy amount of stuff that they didn't get. They had fallen behind. I think, honestly, this movie, if the script had another pass, wink, there would have been so much that you could have done. Like, for example, like just in. Just talking with you and just listening to you. It never occurred to me until just now. One great way to incorporate the mountain stuff is maybe Shatner is Kirk. I should say rather is this character who defies his own mortality and like play more into the fact that he never. He doesn't think he's going.

30:57
William
He's always going to know that he's going to die alone or like, he doesn't believe in death. And like, maybe talk more about whether or not Shat Kirk has any religiousness or he refuses to accept religion. And like, there's this duality where he's like, his religion is like living life to the fullest and it's in that idea. His worldview is put up against Cybox idea of like, this, like, solitary of religion. So it's like belief against belief, but they all believe in the unknown. Like, again, a better storyteller could have made, you know, gold out of kaka, basically.

31:31
Case
Yeah, well, and especially because, like, the original idea for Sybok is inspired by like the televangelists of the time. And that idea exists enough in the character of Sybok, I feel, but like to have his take on faith, which is supposed to be this sort of parasitic version of religion, like being. Using a theocracy as a tool to bludgeon people with and then. And to control them with, like, I up against this more refined, like, enlightened take of spirituality that would be acceptable in the Roddenberry future, which, where everything is maybe not explicitly atheist, but like, that tends to lean towards that, where people can be spiritual about like, the nature of like, pushing their human, you know, pushing the human body to see a thing that humans are not meant to see.

32:19
Case
It could be the argument of climbing the mountain, like seeing the divine in the, in the beauty of the natural world and like, what we are capable of. You could make an argument that's a spiritual stance that is opposed to Cybox, but they don't, like I said, they don't really, like, develop it in the text of the movie. And like, I think that there are ideas like that going into it because Shatner does Have that whole video of him trying to explain like what the meaning behind.

32:48
William
Yeah, Shatner's like this deep thinker, right. If you ever heard him talk about re. About somewhat recently his big trip to outer space, which was, you know, not technically outer space, but he has like this whole speech and nowadays when you go listen to his speeches, he talks about like the worldview and what he saw and what he experienced, like watching the planet from down below. Like he's a very deep thinker but I think sometimes he is not great at like translating those high level thoughts and trans. And like switching the conversation, if you don't mind to cybok. I think that's a perfect example in this movie of like another high concept that sounds in theory and on paper like a really good idea, but in execution not great. Like just like skipping a little bit ahead to the movie.

33:36
William
Like all the different ways in his powers are so ill defined that I think it's a detriment to the movie because I, I find it distracting. I'm like, what are the rules here? Like how does, how do his powers work?

33:48
Case
Yeah, well, I have some thought about thoughts about his powers because like I agree it's weird.

33:54
William
Like, like just for example, like it's like, it's funny. Like let's talk about like the start of the movie. He walks up, like you said, a very dune entrance where he just is riding a horse and meets this farmer. And like the way the scene is shot is actually kind of bland, but on paper it's actually very powerful. He's digging into this man's soul, this being soul. And the being is acting his heart out, being like, oh, you have taken away my pain and all that. But it's a very static one, two shooting style. Like it's just Cyboc looks at him, he looks back at him like they're having a moment and then it's like, what have you done? It's like my weight has been released.

34:34
William
And you know, for an opening scene, even though in multiple viewings, which I have unfortunately done at this movie recently, it's a very dull scene. But I think it actually, to give it the benefit of the doubt, it doesn't it work like a hook? You're like, it does.

34:51
Case
I like the scene. I mean this is the scene that made me come to that like Dune perspective because I made the comparison, you know, pretty early in the movie. And like I think that's like, it's good. But, but yeah, a lot of this could have been conveyed way more interestingly with camera work. In fact, in the original series it would have been, because there would have been a Dutch angle at some point in there, you know.

35:15
William
Yeah. Like I said, like the original series was really good at doing the best they could with minimal work. And sometimes I think if you give someone so much more resources, they get lost in it and don't know what to do. Like not to switch gears real quick. Like Godzilla minus one. What was that? $15 million. And look what they did, as opposed to that movie cost less than an episode of the Acolyte, I believe.

35:44
Case
Yeah. And like this is infamously a bloated budget of a Star Trek movie and was not.

35:50
William
It was mismanaged. It was, it was on Shatner as a director to make sure that he had people around him to help him fill out his knowledge gap. Like he needed a great production assistant, a great producer or two. Like he needed these people. And Hart Bennett is a great producer, but Hart Benner was, you know, getting tired and it been like a battle. And again, so much went wrong with this movie.

36:16
Sam
Yes.

36:17
William
It's not all Shatner's fault.

36:19
Case
No, no.

36:19
Sam
But let's circle back for a second though, to the rules of the power. Because I want to know if either of you have an idea about something, and I don't want to get too far away from it before we. So when he does say that their bond is too strong for his parents, I was like, how does that interrupt his powers? Because we don't know how it works. So I didn't understand why he wasn't able to convince them because they're, their minds are too strong together. Like they're Jedi. Like.

36:50
William
Yeah, I mean, understand that I don't really have answer for you because again, that to me is part of the problem with the inconsistency of how Cybox powers are presented. Like, it seems at first that he, like he's a Vulcan, so Vulcan's, in case anybody's wondering. And I, I'm not ignorant to this. I know Vulcans have like latent psychic abilities, like low level psychic abilities. Normally they need touch people. Cybok never touches anybody. But, you know, he could be getting.

37:17
Sam
He just kind of stares at people.

37:19
William
And Spock himself says that Cybok was a prodigy among Vulcan. So, you know, all of that, not a problem. I'm willing to like all of that. Up to that point, I'm willing to accept it. Cyboc creates an army of people. Okay. He probably Recruited all of them in the same way. He did that again. Up to that point, I'm all well and good. He, when it starts getting weird to me is like later on in the movie, after the failed rescue attempt or so, he attacks. Attack is the wrong word. He influences those. What he uses his power on Uhura and Sulu. Right. And they don't seem to put up too much of a fight. It seems to work just fine. We never see it. We don't know what their pain is. Spoiler. Spoiler alert.

38:03
William
The way this power works is that apparently he digs your innermost pain and forces you to confronted and then helps you release it. And therefore, I guess you become indebted and grateful to him. Which, you know, I. That execution is weird because I don't think people, when they go to the psychologist and help get through a deep traumatic experience, they don't suddenly become that Dr. Slave.

38:30
Case
Right?

38:31
William
Yeah, but, you know, yeah. So basically. And it's weird. And it keeps getting weirder from that movie because by the time Kirk is and company escape the bridge, pretty much everybody on the ship seems to be either influenced by Cybok, okay with it, or whatever. Except for, you know, Kirk, Spock and McCoy and Scotty. Now he tries to convince Kirk, Spock and McCoy at some point, but. So here's my question again, not skipping. Not wanting to skip too far into the end, but since we're talking about Cyboc, the way I interpret it and the powers, is that the way they've been presented in the movie? It seems that he digs into your soul individually. So that means that.

39:14
William
And we know, based on, you know, what we'll talk about, I'm sure at some point the whole trope of, like, the Enterprise, the only one that can. And there's a skeleton crew because it's. The ship is not at full capacity and whatever. So it's a minimal crew. It's not the 400 people in there, obviously, right?

39:30
Sam
Yeah.

39:30
William
At minimum, there's got to be like, what, 70, maybe 80. At minimum. 60 people. So the way the powers are presented is the cyboc go to each and every one of those 60 people. Does he simply, like, control the bridge officers? And the bridge officers tell the lower deckers, hey, this is what we're doing. The lower deckers are like, it. I. I don't care. I'm just here for the ride. And then there's Scotty. Did Cyborg never bother with Scotty, Like.

39:59
Case
Well, I think the idea is Scotty was like, in the Jeffrey's tubes, like, fixing stuff. And then the next thing he knew, the ship had been taken over.

40:07
William
I know, because, I mean, no, because remember he. The way the sequence of events is the Kirk, when they're in the shuttlecraft, they're going up to the ship, the Bird of Prey is coming, they're like, no, we can't go back. We got to do plan B for barricade. Chekhov and Scotty are both on the bridge. Now, if Scotty is so much more tactically minded than Chekhov, a former security officer, that he goes and hides in the Jeffries tubes. Okay, if Scotty after this, because remember, yeah, like it's. All of that's happening. Chekhov is in command of the ship, even though Scotty's thankfully a captain. But blah, blah. Not, not to get into the nuance. It's just weird. That movie never bothers explaining why Scotty seems to be completely unaffected. Or Cybok just does not bother with him at all.

40:55
Case
Yeah, it would be more interesting to at least see the sequence of like, oh, there's, you know, something blew up and Scotty had a race to go fix it. And by the time he was done, I mean, again, that's just my head cannon for how it worked. But like, I think it would just be a scene, like to. To do something like that, you know?

41:11
Sam
Yeah, yeah.

41:13
William
You could trim five minutes from Yosemite to give Scotty those five minutes.

41:16
Case
Absolutely.

41:18
Sam
For sure.

41:19
Case
Yeah. Especially because they want to like, play up like. Scotty has played up fairly well in this movie. Aside from the fact that he just like takes himself out of action by hitting his head.

41:27
William
I actually feel insulted by that scene because I know it's a. As a kid when I saw that. Yeah, cheap pop. Cheap joke. Okay, I get it's funny. But that's not who Scotty is. Scotty is the most proficient engineer possibly in the history of Starfleet. And for him to like, be like, I don't. I forgot there was a pipe here. And he was literally the actor. Jimmy Doohan is forced to look down so that it's like, oh, because how do you bang your head on that? It's like. Also, that tube is a death trap. There are pipes at ankle level, slanted across the sides. I've never seen a Jeffrey stub built like that. And I guess it's part of the conceit and the joke that this former USS Yorktown is basically being rebuilt, turned into the Enterprise. But yeah, or.

42:14
Case
Or it's a brand new ship and it's like, and he says it's a brand new ship built by monkeys at one point.

42:19
William
Yeah. Which, you know, if I, I, I'll say one more thing about the cyborg and then I'd like to like, talk about the go climb a rock and the, when they're in the whole mission itself.

42:30
Sam
Okay.

42:30
William
Because Sam was like talking about cybox power and I wanted to end the thought on this. We, they first describe it as this like, thing, and then everybody on the planet is his army. And then Chekov and Uhura seem to be, fall under it. So then we get finally like a more visualization of what this power is supposed to be, where he goes in the room and it's a, I'll say this, it's a beautiful scene. I love the way it's acted where McCoy is confronted with his dad's death. It's beautiful. It's incredibly well acted, that.

43:05
Case
And you know what? Like, while it's like a little like cartoonish, like, the scene of Spock being born is also like, you know, at least visually interesting, especially to a person who doesn't know Star Trek that well, like where you get to understand the character.

43:17
William
And it's interesting, it's an interesting idea because it's clever. And like, I would think that, I think it's, whoever the actor that plays Pox dad in that scene is, he does a good job, I think, of portraying like somewhat of a, I don't want to use the word racist, but like, it's what it is, right? Like it's so human, like, disappointment and like, that would be something. But also, and this is the last point I wanted to make on this, it's a beautiful scene. I very much love it. Shatner goes into this crazy monologue about like, needing your pain and I have notes. Shatner plays it like only Shatner could. No other Starfleet captain, no could deliver those lines like that. And, and it work. Right.

43:58
William
But Cybok, what I find super interesting about Cybox power, and I'll leave it at this, is that Cybok has the power of being able to go into someone's mind, find what their deepest pain is through psychological, like this, no touch mind meld, more or less dig into them and find what their deepest pain is and, you know, attack them there. He attacks Spock, someone who out of everybody in this movie that he does this two, he is closest to Spock, is his half brother. Spoilers. Sorry, people. And he shows Spock this. What is supposed to be his biggest pain. It's this uncertainty of being half human. Right. And there's a whole history of the character and this and that. But we know anybody who knows the movie knows that by Star Trek 1 he's kind of gotten over that.

44:48
William
That's no longer the character's thing. Also, if Cybok can meld with someone and like knows because he doesn't know Chekhov, he's never met Chekhov, he's never met a whore, he's never McCoy. So he needs to like go into their mind to find out this pout, to know what their pain is. So how can he not know that Spock has overcome this? Like Spock himself tells him. I'm like, I'm not the boy you knew anymore, Cybok. Like this is the wrong avenue of attack for me. So it's wild to me that how inconsistent the writing is that if Cyboc's ability is. He goes into your mind, he finds your pain and he uses it. How can he not know what Spock's pain is?

45:30
Case
I mean, the Vulcan's advocate here is that Spock probably still has that pain. He has just come to terms with it and it now is a source of strength for him as opposed to a source of weakness. The thing that, that Kirk is talking about. Yeah, how I would justify that whole thing because it's the people who are untempered who the release of that pain are so overwhelming that they fall under his thrall. And I think that the people who are better equipped at having faced the pain of their life and worked through it as opposed to suppressing it are the ones that are able to resist Sybok.

46:10
William
It's just interesting to me that what it takes to resist Cybok is being a well adjusted individual. Like.

46:16
Case
Well, yeah, I mean, again, this is the stuff that could have been strengthened in the text of the movie. One thing I want to point out about Cybok that I find fascinating when trying to talk about this movie and him as a threat. So who the fuck cares about an emotional Vulcan? And what I mean by that isn't just like we the audience in terms of like setting it all up in the world of Star Trek where Romulans are well known to be the a cousin species, actually, and that's per.

46:42
William
That you're absolutely hitting the nail on the head case because one, the very first note that I have on my notes for this movie is when this henchman meets Cybok on the planet in the Dune Scene and he's like, he pulls him, he pulls the hood off and he's like, you're a Vulcan. And I'm like, why did you think that? Why didn't you think Romulan, you live in a planet that's been. That was organized by a joint venture by the Federation, the Klingons and the Romulans, right? So why don't you think Vulcan instead of Ramen? And that's. It's a nitpick, but it's a symptom of this movie. Skips a lot of beats and it works out.

47:21
William
The movie works at a higher level, ignoring all the little bits and pieces that you need to put together, all the nuts and bolts that you need to actually sometimes parse out in order to make a comprehensive working story.

47:35
Case
Right? Like, it actually should be interesting to have an emotional Vulcan. But it, but the reason it's interesting isn't, on the face of it. The reason it's interesting should be the, an explanation that, like, well, Cybok, having foregone the logic of his people and being this product or this prodigy amongst his people, is able to harness the psionic abilities that Vulcans have that Romulans do not have to the same degree, or at least that we've not seen. And previously it's been. It's through their discipline that they're able to achieve like this level of psychic power. But he's able to like, push through it and is able to be emotional while doing so. This helps explain why he'd be such a powerful psychic. I mean, you know, you're right. Most of the psionic stuff that we see in Star Trek is physical contact based.

48:18
Case
But like, you know, Tuvok has scenes where you speak psionically with other psychics in Star Trek Voyager. So, like the idea that they have.

48:26
William
Oh, absolutely.

48:27
Case
So that the idea, again, like you say, a prodigy being sufficiently powerful here would not by itself be the issue. And if you allow for the scenario that like, whatever being has connected with him from the, you know, from the center of the. Of the galaxy could be boosting his power even further. And so I have this like, mental image of Cybok having this like, cloud of psionic influence just emanating off of him, just like warping all these people around him and being this like psychic.

48:54
William
I think the movie to its bad credit tries at the very end in the third act to kind of plant that idea that there's this scene where he's like, confronted with what he thought was God and the God assumes his face and it's like, what have I done? And it's like, this is my average. This is me and whatever. So I think the idea might have been there that all along it was this being who found a very susceptible creature who, again, if Cybok has enhanced psionic abilities, he would be the perfect pawn, so to speak. Yeah, I think it's. Again, I think this movie has building blocks to really be a strong story. If this is the kind of story of theologic theology that it wants to tell. But it just was, again, pun intended, missing another pass.

49:42
Case
Yes, exactly. That. That is one of the things that's interesting about these, about the Star Trek odd movies, which is that there's always a nugget that is really interesting about them to be a good movie. And they missed the mark. And if they hadn't missed the mark, they would have been one of the even ones. Like, I mean, like, not in the sense of like the numbering order, but just in the sense of like, no, like a Star Trek movie that hits it really good. And like, yeah, we're kind of grading on a curve for some of the elements of it, but that's because the overall package of all these Star Trek movies, like, is part of the Star Trek franchise, which is a thing that we love for a reason. Like the franchise itself is worth loving.

50:21
William
Yeah, absolutely.

50:22
Case
If this, if this had been a stronger movie, like, if this had been as good as, you know, who Mourns Adonis? Which isn't even that great of an episode of tos, like.

50:32
William
But if you grade it on a curve against this. Against this movie.

50:36
Case
Yes. Yeah, well, yeah, that will. And that's why I cited it as a better example of the same basic plot structure. Yeah, it, like this movie could have been a really interesting one and it's, it has interesting things in it. We, we. All right, so we talked about Yosemite stuff that we liked. We talked about some of the comedic stuff of the ship. Like, failing is. Is worthwhile. There's some cool stuff going on with Cybok and theme of like a God character at the end is like, fairly interesting.

51:05
William
Right?

51:06
Case
The Klingons. Look, look, okay.

51:11
William
The Klingons are. I will not. I don't think we should spend too much time on them personally. And I say that as someone, some people, I. The. The last project that Casey and I worked on Star Trek fan films, I play a Klingon, though. So I have spent a lot of time learning about them, studying them, the mannerisms. The thing I can say the most about Captain Claw and his first officer, Spice Williams, because I don't know her Klingon name, nor do I want to learn it or care enough to learn it, is that he is sleeveless and those sleeves are freaking warm. And I remember telling our director, Johnny K. Can I get a sleeveless uniform? He's like, no. I told him, I'm like, I'll lift weights. I like, I'll pump iron before every scene so I don't look scrawny or whatever.

52:04
William
And he's like, no, we're not doing that. I hate Captain Claw. I don't know. Sam, Casey, you guys have any? I don't. I don't have anything really to say.

52:11
Case
I mean, the idea of a board Klingon, I think, is. Is valid, I will say, like, it makes sense that a Klingon would be bored and that a theme of them being in this, like, peaceful state is worthwhile. It's weird that he would just be allowed to just like, run off and go attack a Federation ship just because they happen to be responding to a distress call that applies to all three powers.

52:34
William
So. And I will. I will hold on to that because I want to segue into, like, that whole situation. But I will say again, playing interesting. Like, what could have been. It's interesting that they mentioned that the kidnapped situation involves the three main powers of the Alpha Beta Quadrants. Right? So we see the Federation is the first to respond. Klingons are doing something like. At least they're. They have a presence in the movie with this wrong one row Captain. But it's funny to me how. And again, they probably didn't know how to juggle it, so they just didn't try. What? The Romulans seem to do nothing here. Which is wild to me because, again, let me just put it in context as to why I think that's wild to me. The planet of Nimbus 3. It's. It's as a.

53:22
William
As a tool for the story, for creating a setting as to why the events of this movie happen. It's functional. It's. It's a planet that had these three hostages. And because the three hostages are taken, the Enterprise is dispatched to rescue them, which allows Cybox to take the ship. Like, functionally, it plays a function in the story. But when you break down the concept of Nimbus 3, it's a planet that attempted to be developed by the three Superpowers. Which, by the way, when would that have been? Because in the history of Star Trek up to this point, there had never been really a point in the chronology that made you think Klingons, Romulans and Federation were able to sit down enough to actually try this. But maybe they did, which, you know, whatever. But.

54:07
William
So the planet is introduced as this abandoned, failed project, right? They don't care. There's this drunken human who's the ambassador, this old Klingon who's been put out to pasture. All he does is drink every day. There's one ridiculous funny scene when the settlement is attacked. The human is trying to reach the computer, the Romulan. I don't know what she's doing. The Klingon. Instead of. There's a disruptor on in front of it at the bar and instead of reaching for the disruptor, he reaches for his flask so he can get another drink before he's arrested. It's hilarious.

54:38
Case
Yeah, I do. I. I actually enjoy those moments there with that character there.

54:42
William
Yeah. But it's funny. So the problem I have with this concept is that it's treated like this is a failed product. No one gives a. For some reason, there's a new Romulan ambassador that just arrived. Don't know how because there's apparently no ships, but maybe she was beamed in. Doesn't matter. It seems like this project, no one in either the Romulan Empire, the Klingon Empire or the Federation seems to give a. Like, this is where careers go to die and this is where you bury your problems that you don't want. However, the second they are kidnapped, it's like we have a situation and even though this Enterprise is beat up and run down, we got it.

55:17
Case
Since something like, we have a solution for this one.

55:20
William
Oh. So I.

55:21
Case
We might. We might have the same solution.

55:23
William
Let me just say mine and see if you have yours. So, yeah, so Kirk is taken from shore. Leaf. We get the beautiful scene with him putting on the bomber jacket with the shirt that says, go climb a rock. Infamous. Funny. I love it. And props, by the way, to Harv Bennett, who's the Admiral. The producer of the Star Trek franchise is the Admiral who's doing a cameo, giving him that thing. So he gives him the spiel, which, by the way, I find this fascinating. Star Trek has a lot of tropes and one of the most famous ones is the Enterprise is the only ship in the quadrant or the sector or whatever terminal you want to use that can solve the problem in this movie, they try to circumvent that by saying, Kirk is like, you can't send us. Look how.

56:03
William
Look at the state of the ship. And he's like, isn't there another ship? And the Admiral's like, yeah, there are other ships, but no commanders as experienced as you. I need Jim Kirk. So I'm like, well, grab Jenkirk, maybe Spock and somebody else that you need his core team, and slap him on another ship that you already admitted is there, or send the Enterprise with somebody else. Like, what? What?

56:28
Case
So my. My solution, which even works as Headcanon if you really needed it to, is that. So Kirk has recently been demoted from Admiral to Captain. What if Starfleet really fucking doesn't like him? Like, like, what if the whole. The whole spiel of like, I need Jim Kirk is actually, like, them being like, this is a suicide mission. We're putting you on a mission like, one that we don't even care about because this is a failed project of a bullshit state that we are sending you on a mission intentionally to fail. And if you pull off a win, we look good because we picked the. The great Jim Kirk to do. To do a mission that he succeeded.

57:07
William
Honestly, Case, that's brilliant. Like, it's very cynical and. And it goes completely against the tone of the movie, but I think a better a writer could have made that work. And I think it's actually.

57:16
Case
And I think it would have been funny. Like, I think it could have been really funny on top of all that, because it could be, like, because they win in the end.

57:24
William
Like, because I think that's a much better way of circumventing the trope, right? Because they're trying to go against the troop and be, like, acknowledging it's like, yeah, we know this is a trope, but just acknowledging it doesn't mean you're. You're still doing it. You're acknowledging, but that doesn't mean you're. You're. You're getting past it. Now, what you just suggested, though, that is a brilliant. At least I think from a storytelling point of a. It's a brilliant and, yeah, quite funny way of circumventing successfully the trope. It's not that you're the only ship in the quadrant, or it's that we need you. It's that we don't want you. And, you know, if you.

57:56
William
If you're lost in action, you get to go out of martyr, we get to put your name up on a wall, and we don't have to deal with the Great Jim Kirk anymore. That's, that's honestly kind of funny.

58:05
Case
Yeah, like that is honestly a big note for like what I had for my pitch until I had another thing that I got very excited about, which we'll get into when we get into full pitch. But yeah, like that even just works, like I said, as head cannon, like where it's like not one without as a commander experience as you. I need Jim Kirk like you. If you read that, him being smug and what like that, it works fine as a scene. But you know what? It'd be even better if Kirk was like very mad about it afterwards, where it's just like we are being sent to our death. This is the worst goddamn situation I could possibly be in.

58:38
William
It's funny, you would still have to massage it a little bit because it'd be like, is it worth getting rid of Captain Montgomery Scott and Captain Spock just to get rid of Captain Kirk? Maybe. I don't know.

58:49
Case
I mean, but Captain Montgomery Scott was also a participant in the whole situation that led to Kirk being demoted. Like the whole stealing of the Enterprise, like all of these people are already involved.

59:00
William
There be whales here.

59:02
Case
I mean like, yeah, they've pulled off some pretty big wins. But like, but like, let's be honest here. Kirk's crew at least, you know, his senior staff have been with him for all of his bullshit.

59:13
William
And it's funny actually. Star Trek itself has acknowledged that there is well known episode of Star Trek Voyager called Flashback and it was done in the 30th anniversary of the series. And in it there's like, there's flashbacks. Turns out that Tuvok served with Captain Sulu and all that stuff and blah. There's a scene where Tuvok is reminiscing with Janeway about like that era of Starfleet and Janeway like get like waxes nostalgically and she's like, you know, Sulu, Kirk. Nowadays officers like those would have been kicked out on their first mission. Like there's no room for cowboy. Cowboys like them in Starfleet.

59:49
Case
Yeah.

59:50
William
So Star Trek itself has acknowledged. It's like that was an era of like action storytelling that, you know, it's not, it's not. When you look at it. Yeah, it's actually more trouble than it's worth. Speaking of more trouble than it's worth, I don't know if you guys have any thoughts that you guys wanted to share about like the actual rescue.

01:00:11
Case
Okay. Yes. So I, I had to like make some notes about this, which is that up until the actual rescue is happening, the movie is awkwardly paced and like a little heavy handed, but mostly fine. I'm like, I'm. You know what? Like this dune ass movie, I'm here for it. Like the B plot of like the ship falling apart and Scotty like ripping his hair out trying to fix it. Like, look, I'm the one who suggested that the replicators be broken on the Starship Farragut homecoming episode. And like, that's the reason why everyone is goddamn sick. Like, I'm all for that kind of like B plot comedy beat. It could work fine. It's just, it's just not there in this movie. But then we get to the Uhura.

01:00:53
William
Dance scene and yeah, I have one note on that and it just says, was the Uhura scene necessary? I think that's a scene that was 20 years too late, personally.

01:01:05
Case
Yeah, that's part of it.

01:01:08
William
I feel like that scene was. Kirk was probably. Shatner is like, I remember when people were like, be all about Michelle Nichols in that mini skirt. Oh my God. Like all of these people were like absolutely in love with her. Like, let me pay that off. 20 years too late.

01:01:24
Case
Like, let's be clear, she looks great again.

01:01:28
William
Yes.

01:01:29
Case
But she also looks like she's like in her 50s or 60s.

01:01:32
William
Like, I don't. Yeah, like, let me again, I don't want, I don't want any hate or anybody. I don't want anybody to misunderstand me. Nichelle Nichols is a beautiful woman. Was a beautiful woman, may she rest in peace. Not only outside, but her beautiful soul. Beautiful person, beautiful woman. Got to meet her on her last year of life at shore, leaving Maryland. Couldn't speak much, but, you know, she had a beautiful smile. Her eyes were still alert. Like, again, I cannot speak enough praise about who Nichelle Nichols was as a person. And we could do a whole episode on her work with NASA and all that. Having said, all of that just, it just wasn't the place or the time for that scene.

01:02:14
Case
Yeah, yeah. It's just an awkward scene. It doesn't make any sense. Like, it actually makes less sense because the planet is kind of this failed peace planet as opposed to like a literal prison planet, which is what it should be like.

01:02:27
William
I'm sure that could be part of the pitch later on. Yeah, like just breaking down the whole sequence up to that point. You know, it's like, okay, so we're gonna go down there. We gotta go down there. For some reason, I can't remember the usual, whatever. Can't beam there. We don't know where the prisoners are there. I'm sure there was some techno babble. I didn't.

01:02:45
Case
It's easy to come up with a solution for why you can't. Like, we can't. We can't lock on to them. Like, there's no. There's nothing that we can scan. Yada, yada there.

01:02:54
William
And there's some stuff when it's, like, it's getting going, I actually get excited. Like, as you know, the CASE knows me because I'm a big cosplayer and customer. Right. That was my entryway into the world of Star Trek and fan films. I was a guy who came with his own Klingon uniform, his own Star Trek uniforms. So I'm a big uniform nut. I don't know how you guys feel. I actually kind of dig the assault uniform because I always thought, as someone who's worn that monster maroon uniform, you cannot do action sequence.

01:03:21
Case
Yeah, no, I actually like the clothes in this movie. I. I took a screenshot at one point to be like, oh, I actually kind of like, they're, like the weird turtlenecks that they wear.

01:03:30
William
Did you notice. Did you notice Shatner's turtleneck?

01:03:32
Case
What spot or what part about it?

01:03:35
William
So unlike every other turtleneck in on those assault uniforms, his seems to have, like, digs deep into his neck, right where his Adam apple is. And it always, like, it looks at first like it's always tucked into his collar for some reason.

01:03:49
Case
Yeah, yeah. And it's like the picture I took.

01:03:51
William
And I'm like, why don't you untuck it? It turns out Shatner asked for two of the pillows in the quilting to be taken out to leave that there because he thought the full collar gave him a fat neck.

01:04:03
Case
That is very Shatner.

01:04:05
William
Yeah, it's. It's. But, like, sorry for that, like, little segue. Sorry. I'm a costume guy. I could talk about costumes all day. But again, like, the uniforms, actually, I like this. All ideas. And along with those comes my favorite phaser of Star Trek. I think that big, beefy assault phaser. Like, I love that. Yeah, it's a big, beefy boy.

01:04:25
Case
Yeah. When they get captured, there's. I have a note and I forget what he actually says, but my note is, damn it, Jim. The line. It's, life is but a dream, or life is like a dream. And he doesn't. He says something different, but close enough. And it's like, that should be a callback to row your boat.

01:04:39
William
Something like that. Oh, no. Yeah, it's like. Yeah, there's like, little things like, okay, so they go down there. They land. They land several clicks away because you don't want to see the shuttlecraft. Tactically sound. I. No notes there. That's fine. That makes sense. So they're like, they need. And they have, I think, only an hour before the Klingons get there and the situation escalates or whatever. So they have a time frame which, you know, a solid story. Story tool to make possibly actually the only action sequence in the whole movie, you know, have higher stakes. All of that's good because, you know, if there were no Klingons, they could take a whole day, though. They're not going anywhere. They could do whatever they want. So, again, all of that stuff is working for me.

01:05:20
William
They need the horses, and they need to distract them so that they can get the horses and get to the city in a faster pace. So Uhura does the fan dance, the infamous fan dance, to distract them. And I think the guy. When he realizes that they've been tricked, I think he actually says, oh or something, I can't remember, which is like, you know, weird. There's a moment. I don't know if you caught it. Case and Sam, there's this weird insert when they're riding up to the city right before they get there. And Shatner's like, close the gates behind us or whatever. There's this weird scene that's probably shot from the doom where all of them riding and there's some ADR where Shannon Kirk is screaming to Spock, be one with the horse. And I'm like, why? Why is that there? It's so weird.

01:06:10
William
Like, the pace.

01:06:10
Case
Yeah, no, I remember that, actually. It's. It's like a weird spot when they're, like, trying to, like, get off the horse or whatever.

01:06:16
William
And then like, yeah, like, it's weird. So Kirk's plan is they go into the city. He screams, shut the gates. There's someone right behind us. And I'm thinking, you can't back that up, Kirk. Like, they're. You have maybe 20 seconds before someone realizes there's no one there. So what was your plan? But anyway, they ride into the city on blue horses. I don't know if you noticed, the horses are painted blue to make them look alien. Shatner, Kirk. I keep calling him Shatner. Kirk looks to Spock and something like, what? What are we doing? And Spock in A ma. In a very. This is brilliant. Again, the actual writing of these characters. Kirk, Spock, and McCoy is so spot on. Because Spock, in the most literal sense of the word, because Shatner's moving around on horseback.

01:06:59
William
Spock looks at him as he's holding his tricorder, and he says, hold your horse, Captain. That's. That's so good. That's good stuff.

01:07:07
Sam
Yeah, little.

01:07:08
William
Little nuggets in a. In a sea of poop that are just brilliant.

01:07:12
Case
Good, good wordplay. Every now and then.

01:07:14
William
Every now and then. Like, the whole mission, like, up to this point. I don't know if you guys have any comments. Up to this point. Weird mission, but it's exciting. And then the shootout happens.

01:07:22
Case
Well, I do think there's an egregious, like, they don't have an explanation for. For why Kirk has to come down to this thing.

01:07:27
William
Because Kirk is Kirk.

01:07:29
Case
Yes, because Kirk is Kirk. But, like, why. Why have the whole way.

01:07:31
Sam
It's just like the mountain. It was there. He had to come down.

01:07:34
Case
I mean, yeah, but. But then. Then lean into that component of it. Like, have. Have it be a spiritual callback to it. Because as it is, it's like, okay, we're gonna have, like, Captain Chekov in this whole situation. And it's like, that's like, why are we doing this ruse? Send your. Like, I'm not saying that it isn't a trope of Star Trek that, you know, our. Our top three, like, officers on the ship go down for all every away mission. Like, I understand that is. Is a big thing of Star Trek, but at this point in the production of Star Trek, they had realized to stop fucking doing that. Like, Picard doesn't do that shit. And we are now in the era where, like, we're having real conversations about Star Trek, the Next Generation.

01:08:16
William
Well, remind me. I think Star Trek 5 is 1986, right? So, yeah, we're three years into TNG. Yeah, I think. Honestly, I think. I think they know enough to keep it. Keep to their lanes. Like TNG and Picard are. Picard is a completely different captain from Kirk.

01:08:37
Case
I'm not saying that.

01:08:38
William
That.

01:08:38
Case
I'm not saying that Kirk can't go down on this mission. I'm saying that they need to give us a reason for why Kirk came down on this mission.

01:08:44
Sam
Yeah, they don't never quite, like, other than, like, the thought that, like, Kirk will always want to be in the thick of it. Right? Like, like this, this impulsive person that is basically presented to us climbing a rock at the beginning of this movie. Other than that, they don't really give us a reason why he has to go down and plant a decoy and start a shootout and ride blue horses. None of that, you know, like, the whole. And there's not really an explanation.

01:09:19
Case
And I'll say this, a death wish is a fine explanation, but lean into it.

01:09:23
Sam
Right.

01:09:24
William
You know, it. It's really interesting. Like, I'm. I'm a Kirk fanboy. I make no apologies for it. So you guys are, like, bringing something to me to think about that. I never really thought about it. Like, I just accept if there's an away mission, Kirk will go down. It just. It's just how it is. I never questioned it, and I think Shatner wasn't expecting people 35 years later to sit in a podcast and question it either.

01:09:47
Case
Well, but here's the thing. A lot of those away missions on the original show are either Discovery missions or Ambassador missions. And so there is a logic in having a senior member of Starfleet there to act as a representative of Starfleet. What I would say here is that you could easily make a justification that they need to do some kind of hostage negotiation with him. But, like, it seems that Chekov does most of that. And, like, you know, it. Whatever plan that they had, I would have liked to see something that ends up with Kirk doing some kind of diplomacy, even if it's like, gunboat diplomacy. Even if it's like, okay, I've got my ship in orbit and now I've got phasers locked on you, so let's. Now we're going to be talking some kind of a situation.

01:10:32
William
I mean, he does, I guess, get forced into that later in the movie, but I see what you mean. And honestly, like, in talking about it, I. You and Sam are making great points. The only thing I could come up with is, again, a better story writer with more time could have come up with a great reason either. Your reasoning of, like, Kirk is someone who's kind of like a daredevil, who doesn't believe in his own mortality, which.

01:10:55
Case
Kind of, you know, I'm not saying doesn't believe, but. But is ready to face it, like, at this point in the movie, you.

01:11:01
William
Know, like, I think it would be. I think that some. Honestly, I think that would be maybe an evolution of what was started in Star Trek 2. I think that actually, yeah, if you fall, if you followed that through line, it would honestly probably be great. I also believe that Shatner Wasn't invested in the lore or the nuances of Star Trek as a whole. Just like the idea of, like, the Enterprise having 76 decks or whatever, like, that tells me that Shatner didn't care about some of that stuff. Like, another great example is, again, more. If you put more focus into it. Why is McCoy there? Well, you need a medic. Isn't there another medic that could have come? Younger guy, maybe. Maybe Chekhov is chief, has played the role of chief of security. Possibly a much better person to put on the ground.

01:11:48
Case
Yeah, like, that's the thing. It's not that, like, I can't buy that Kirk is the best man for this mission, but I would like to have the mission, at least the plan that we see, sort of like, support that or at least, like, have them outline the plan that would have supported that. Because as it is like the. They land, they use the fan dance to distract the people. They ambush these guys, they steal their horses and their clothes, they ride in, and then it sort of like, falls apart from there. And meanwhile, Chekhov is the one that is being forced to do the actual, like, diplomacy. And I don't. I don't know. I mean, like, sure, you might have faith in Chekhov to do it, but that seems like that's the more important part of this. This mission at this point. Like running.

01:12:27
Case
Running as a whole. And again, you could set up Kirk as being the more important part, but they just don't do any. They don't tell me why Kirk has to be the one on the ground. And it's just a weird scene. And if it is just that Kirk wants to be the one on the ground also, fine, but just tell me that is the reason.

01:12:42
William
Yeah, and I mean, there could be other reasons. Like, again, the ship is understaffed, and maybe given the people that they had, you know, Sulu has to fly the shuttle, they need a hurrah to fan dance. Spock didn't really. Honestly, if there's anybody who didn't need to be there, I guess Spock was there to be able to talk to Sybok. As they established earlier in the movie, they've not said that they're brothers, but they have established that Spock knows who Cybox is. We need.

01:13:06
Case
We need to stop and talk about this one, because. Jesus Christ, why doesn't he reveal that it's his brother way earlier? Like, that is such an immature take on their relationship. And maybe Sybok has the. Like, he has the pain of the Cybok relationship and that's why he's suppressing it. And then you can deal with the whole like the pain thing and him having some emotions and yada, yada.

01:13:27
William
Honestly, you're right. If you were to like, try to break it down, it could feed into the fact that Spock's hidden pain. Is that his embarrassment for like his early years and everything that has to do with his early life, he tries to suppress. He doesn't want to think about his early life. Cybok being part of that early life makes sense. If he's like, I don't. I'm not going to address this if I don't have to. And I, as much as I love McCoy and Jim, like, if you don't ask, I won't tell. You know, something like that. Like, yeah, that would make sense. And I guess as a fan you can fill that hole in, but the movie certainly doesn't. Try the movie as it is.

01:14:08
Case
It's like, well, why the did you tell that was literally your duty as an officer to tell them that you had that personal connection also with time.

01:14:18
William
That has been made substantially worse by the fact that Spock has done that twice because he's technically never told anybody about his half sister either.

01:14:27
Case
Right.

01:14:27
William
Or adopted sister. So in hindsight, that's even more egregious and even more dumb. It's like, come on, Spock, come on.

01:14:35
Case
Yeah, it's just, it's such a weird detail. And the fact that he doesn't drop it and then that's the reason why he's not able to. To pull the trigger, which. That, that seems like kind of clunky, but like, is not. But not. I understand the scene happening. I think that the scene happens in a way that isn't very effective and is kind of acted like very handedly. But. But like the fact that like Spock won't shoot Sybok is because that they're both sons of Sarek. Like, again, that is super important information to spot for Spock to share. And Spock would know that. And that's not in character for Spock to do something like that. Like I said, it's an immature choice. And that is not the character we're dealing with anymore. It would be the character were dealing with if he was.

01:15:16
Case
Had lingering effects of being resurrected in a younger body or something like that. But he's not, He's. He's still living anymore.

01:15:22
William
Yeah. And it's weird actually, for all the praise that I get this movie for Actually getting Kurt, Spock and McCoy right. These actually. These scenes right after the. The shootout and the failed hostage rescue and then the immediate aftermath of going up to the sheep. The ship, this is where I think the movie actually alters the most. And this is where, for me, I think the. After the rescue and when they go up to the ship, I think this is the point in the movie where it literally flops the hardest. And it's like, there's really no saving the movie because up to this point, up until the rescue, big action, set piece. Say what you will, whether or not it's well choreographed or not, there's still, like, this feeling.

01:15:59
William
I'm like, all right, it's not paste well, but there's like, ebbs and flows where this movie still. Still, like, you don't exactly know. And I'm like, all right, it could still work. But then there's this whole sequence where, you know, after they come into the ship, like they're Kirk and Cyboc. Like, it's a big old crash. The Klingons are getting in the. In. In the way. So they have to do what is supposed to be a very exciting thing because they were doing a sub. They. You had to use a subpar studio to do these effects. And they look kind of shitty. There's no denying it. This big action sequence looks like toys against a black cloth. They don't look good. So that's all lost. And then the crash happens.

01:16:38
William
Kirk and Cybok are the only two awake, and they fumble over this homemade gun. And Spock picks it up in a kind of cool shot. It, like, comes up to his leg and he picks it up and it's like, oh, okay. And then Kirk goes really bloodthirsty for some weird reason, and he just, like, screams, like, at the top of his lungs, like, with murderous intent in his eyes, shoot him. And it's like, that's not. That's not Captain Kirk. Captain Kirk does not believe in just upright murdering someone like that. If it was a phaser set to stun and he said, shoot him. Yeah. But Kirk is literally telling Spock, commit murder. Don't arrest him. Just bypass the arrest murder. Which is the one moment I think this movie utterly fails the big two. Yeah, yeah.

01:17:25
William
And I will say before anything else, before we leave the planet in the rescue attempt, I have to say, one truly, utterly embarrassing thing about this movie that I don't think anybody will ever defend is Kirk fighting the three boobed cat lady.

01:17:42
Case
Yeah, yeah.

01:17:44
William
I had to make a mention of that because it's in my notes. I'm like, wow, that is.

01:17:50
Case
That, that is there because Shatner wants it there and that is the only reason. It's.

01:17:54
Sam
Yeah, pretty much.

01:17:55
William
There is. No, I don't think there's anybody second guessed it. Like she is like this ripoff like Thundercats, Star wars, cantina looking alien. But it's just so odd and then it's like so bad. It's compounded on the fact that not only is it cringe, I'm sure it was cringe in 1989, I'm sure it was cringe back then. But it's also like so much more cringe now because it's like, oh, half naked lady, only Kirk the ladies man has to fight. He has a literal cat fight. And not only is it like a horrible cat fight where he picks her up and the lady must be on wires because he doesn't. Shatner does a horrible job. It's awkward, it doesn't look real at all. And then he just throws her into like this aquatic pool table and then she just dies. Is that what happens?

01:18:41
William
How did you guys read that?

01:18:43
Case
Oh, the water thing.

01:18:45
William
Yeah, like he just picks her up, she tries, she gets on top of him.

01:18:48
Case
Yeah, it's kids TV logic where it's like threw a cat into water.

01:18:52
William
Yeah. He bench presses her and then she just lands on the water. Instead of like jumping out, it's like, did she immediately drown? Like she's what? Ha. Like she's face down in the water and she's a mammal. So she's. She's dead. Right? That's what happened.

01:19:07
Case
It seems to be. But I think the movie does not actually know the answer to that question.

01:19:12
Sam
Yeah, I don't think the movie knows the answer.

01:19:14
William
I know the answer because I know. Biology chat. She's dead.

01:19:20
Case
She's dead, man. So you know what's fascinating? So while I have not seen the movie as much as you have, I guess overall I've seen this movie about like five times and I've watched like various videos. I've watched SF debris, like video on it. I. Back in the day I watched the nostalgia critics coverage of this movie. Like I've seen like the very like detailed breakdowns of this movie and I couldn't really describe for you like anything with like what happens with the Klingons at this point in the movie on like. It's just difficult for me to visualize like their importance to the part because it seems that they're just There to beat there for the sake of this movie.

01:20:03
Sam
Yeah, they add some tension. Maybe, like, at most, maybe they add a little like, oh, look who's coming now. But it's never really. First of all, doesn't affect the real plot.

01:20:16
Case
I don't feel that they change the narrative in any sort of meaningful way. Like, they are there to be a. Like a stakes raiser, but, like, there's no. It doesn't, like, dramatically shift the way any scene plays out.

01:20:29
William
It's very artificially there. It's. It's there to create an artificial sense of danger where there really is now. Because again, let's. Let's break down. Like, we've, like, we're talking about the movie, and at this part of the movie, this is like going into Act 3, I think, or Act 2, whatever you want to break it down. Cybok is now at the height of his power. He's taken over the ship. We've already talked about what I. I have this funny visual of Spock literally forcing everybody into a line. Everybody on the ship. And it's like, all right, come share your pain with me. All right, next. Come share your pain with me. And it must have taken him, like, what, three hours? Like, it's just a funny visual. But then, like, now comes this situation where they're in the brig and like, it's. It's Kirk.

01:21:14
William
Kirk. And again, this is on brand and somewhat off brand for the Big three, because they have these. They have the next Big three scene, which is them on the bridge. And there's this one piece of dialogue that's always sits weird with me, where it's like they're trying to break out. And Spock's like, no, you can't. Like, Starfleet tried this out, tried fix try. They tested this bridge on the most ingenious officer they could find, and he could not get out. And Kirk is like this. Did this officer have pointy ears and have a knack for. For getting his friends in trouble? And Spock's like, he did have pointed ears. And it's like it just occurred to me this very last time, this past week, when I was watching the movie. This never occurred to me until this time. I've seen this movie.

01:21:58
William
Feel bad for me. I've probably seen this movie in my life maybe eight to ten times, and it never occurred to me. This ship is janky af. Nothing seems to work. And somehow it's got the most advanced start. Bridge, brig, and all of Starfleet. For some reason, it's the only Thing.

01:22:15
Sam
They got right, those monkeys.

01:22:17
William
I know. It's like the monkeys got one thing right and it's just like it. It occurred to me. It's like this movie feels like a set of obstacles that the crew has to overcome, but the obstacles are just there for them to overcome it and create this artificial flow of, like, progress and difficulty. But it's not really, because it's like.

01:22:36
Case
You said, this is an extended episode of the TV show. And so these are plot beats that are there just to be those kind of action beats to fill up time or. Or lack thereof, action sequences. But, you know, it's. It's a lot of the. The stuff you put in there just like hit your runtime.

01:22:53
William
But it. Yeah. And it's weird because at the one point I want to criticize it because these are things that are there just for the sake of being there and creating this fake. It's not organic because, you know, like, obviously all movies create just to get from plot A to plot B. But a well written plot and story does a good job of conveying that flow in the story. And it feels organic. It's not more like, this is sequence A and then this leads to sequence B. It. And this movie feels like, very like that. Like the shuttlecraft can't go back to the planet because the Klingons are there. The Klingons are only there to create like the sense of like, okay, we have to make this. Instead of like a land.

01:23:33
William
A normal landing on the ship, we have to make this forced excitement because the Klingons are there, but the Klingons are unimportant. Like, they still get away. Nothing happens. Same thing with the break. The brig is there to create more tension. So that from my point of view, it creates more tension, but it's. They don't spend that long in it. So it's like, okay, why? You could have gone straight from that to the Cybox scenes with Cybok trying to, like, work on them. But it pads the movie out and it does. I also can't. Sorry. Can't hate on it too much because it allows us for that funny thing. And a very famous scene from Scotty which is. Do you not know a jailbreak when you see one? Yeah, like that. Like, this movie is peppered. Say what you will. And we've.

01:24:18
William
We've hit it pretty hard and we'll continue to do so for the. Whatever remains of the episode. But this movie does have great little character moments.

01:24:28
Case
Yeah, Scotty doing the jailbreak, I think is really Good. And then, of course, it's immediately followed by him knocking himself out. Which is.

01:24:35
William
Which again. Yeah. Painful. Not just to him, but painful to me as someone who really respects the character. But. And then, like, I won't spend any time on, like, the whole. Them trying to escape the turbo lift scene. Like, other people have explained the problem with it. Like, the Enterprise doesn't have any six.

01:24:50
Case
Well, that's. And the editing is terrible on it anyway because the deck count keeps, like, changing, like, every shot. Like, yeah, there's some continuity issues, there's some editing issues, and then, like, there's a props department issue or, like, a set dressing issue. Like, that's, you know, kind of frustrating.

01:25:09
William
And it. To me, it just speaks to, again, like, the level of, like, having seen it, having now worked on independent movie film sets with case and all of that stuff, and seeing all that goes, like, the different departments and all that stuff. Obviously, Shatner as a director is not going. He's not an author. He's not going to have his. His finger on every single piece of frame and every single piece of set dressing. There are people there. There's their set decorators. There are other people to do that stuff. But it does speak to me that Shatner, who is an integral piece of Star Trek, doesn't care enough to know what his ship is. He doesn't know that the Enterprise has, you know, doesn't have that number of decks. And they go from, like, the top down. Right.

01:25:54
William
The top deck of the Enterprise is not deck 76, it's deck one. And it goes.

01:25:58
Case
Right.

01:25:58
William
It's reverse of a.

01:25:59
Case
Him not knowing that is one thing. Them not looking it up while, like, after they've written their first draft is another. You know, like that. Those are the kind of things where it's like, you write the tech, like, in there, and you. You look up the details later, or you have someone, like, check it. And that's. That is honestly a problem I have with the movies in general, which is the movies don't typically work the way that shows do, where they have, like, tech consultants on hand all the time.

01:26:22
William
Which is also funny because the. The shows, at least how they used to be, now with the more modern seasons, they have a lot more time. But back then, it was these 25 episode seasons where they were just go, go. So sometimes you had, like, seven days to crank this stuff out. And somehow they were able to be much more careful with taking the tech and making sure that the techno babble was more accurate than they were on a movie where they had so much more time.

01:26:48
Case
It's, it's frustrating. I mean, maybe some of it comes down to issues with like Writers Guild stuff, but like, it's so weird that they don't pay attention and they, that they don't just stop to research the actual canon of their show and.

01:27:03
William
Yeah, and I mean it's not as easy as now where you have like a Wikipedia or anything, but in 1988 there were tech manuals, there were Star Trek fans, they were fan magazines that have made blueprints like they were Matt Jeffries original designs. And I'm sure when they redesigned the Enterprise in the Motion Picture, like they had access if they had cared enough. Which I think it's what it all boils down to. I think they just didn't care. And I there, that's a mentality that some people have. Right. If the story is good, you shouldn't be paying attention to what color my boots are. You should be moved by the story and whatever. But Shatner, I think, failed to understand his audience because Star Trek fans are very technical minded.

01:27:47
Case
Star Trek fans care about the color of your boots. Like, let's just be clear about that one. Like we just did the episode on Generations and I did a rant about the uniforms.

01:27:58
William
Oh, thank God, I'm glad you didn't have me there because I. Oh God, that would have been bad. That would have been bad. Yeah, no, like, I mean, I once had a conversation with our good friend John Broughton about the length of the heel on a boot. So yeah, I mean we do that kind of stuff. That's what we Star Trek fans do. But it's okay for Shatner not to do it, but to also not be like, hey, can we at least make sure that we're putting the right numbers on these decks? Like something like that. Come on. That's not. And I, and I said we wouldn't spend time on the turbolift, but we are so I'm so that's okay.

01:28:30
Case
We, we rocket booted through it pretty fast. So, yeah, I don't mind that being a callback. It is like kind of stupid that they start climbing and then he just like grabs the boots and it's funny because.

01:28:42
William
It's funny because you were asking for better callbacks to bring back, make the mountain scene matter. And this is the callback.

01:28:49
Case
This is the only callback. And again, I don't actually mind it. I like the scene itself is like, whatever, but like, I don't mind it. Like, I rather like that he goes and gets his rocket boots. Like, that part I think is fine. Like, that makes sense. Like, go ahead and do it.

01:29:03
William
And I won't even. And I won't even. I won't even. I don't even care about whether or not the rocket boots are practical or functional or should even exist. Like, I don't even think.

01:29:12
Case
Or should everyone have them. Like, they seem pretty useful.

01:29:16
William
They do, though. Yeah, they do.

01:29:18
Case
It's. It's kind of weird in that regard.

01:29:20
William
Yeah. And then, you know, like, from this point on, the movie is like, for me, the movie kind of at this point, it's like, can it stick the landing? It's already. Pretty much two thirds of the movie are gone. It's like, oh, boy, this is not going well. Can you stick the landing? And then again, we've already talked about it, but they come to this incredibly well acted scene where Cybok tries to brainwash them. That's the term I think it best fits. It is they tried to brainwash him. And Deep Kelly does this powerhouse sequence where he goes through McCoy's father's death. And it's like really well acted. It's still like, it still gets to me. Spock is the weakest of the three in that. But it's only because, you know, it's still like a visually, like you said, case.

01:30:05
William
I think it's very interesting. I don't understand why Vulcans are giving birth in a cave as opposed to a hospital, but whatever.

01:30:11
Case
Yeah, it's weird how. How cave centric Vulcans often are depicted as.

01:30:16
William
Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I have no explanation for that. But, you know, they put little things on the baby's ears and they look very natural. Like, I just saw it last week and I paused it and I could not. It was very well blending. So, you know, props to the costume department there, because babies, you can't really do too much with them. Whether or not it's a real baby, I can't tell, but, you know, good up there. And again, Shatner, not to spend too much time on it, but like, I need my pain. Like, you know, it's all good. It's just interesting. I had this thought last time I was watching it. McCoy is a doctor and McCoy, in the original triumvirate of Star Trek, the. The dynamics were always. Spock is the mind, McCoy is the heart, and Kirk is the.

01:31:03
William
The valve, which has to make both of those work together. And he has to take input from both Sides. And he's kind of like the center that balances out both of those viewpoints. Like, that's. That was his role. So it's interesting to me that he's the hero in this, in the story, and he's the protagonist, so it makes sense for him to have that line. Also, Shatner wants the best lines. But it seems interesting to me that McCoy, a doctor, should. And also a humanist and an emotional being at that. It's interesting that he does not grapple and doesn't. He's not the one who understands the need for pain in a human being. But then again, you know, sometimes it's easy for someone to view something when it's not them.

01:31:48
William
So, you know, it's just an interesting thought I had when I saw the scene last time. Yeah. But, you know, and then if you don't mind, that brings it to what I think is possibly the moment where the movie just flips the. Just jumps the shark. And I think there's no coming back to it. And that's the galactic barrier. And I don't know if you have any thoughts on the concept.

01:32:08
Case
The concept of the barrier, I think, is, you know, because there are interesting books. What is it? A Fire upon the Deep, where it's like, as you get denser, like, deeper into the galaxy, things work better. Like, technology works differently because it's so much. There's so much more. Maybe it's the reverse. No, it's the reverse. Sorry. As you get closer and, like, things are less advanced, I don't mind the idea that there could be some sort of energy field or radiation or whatever. Again, this movie seems very clunky and so it doesn't seem well explained or viable. And I swear to God, I have no idea why this is the one ship that's able to go through.

01:32:47
William
I agree.

01:32:49
Sam
It's true. I feel like also, it's like it's relying on you as an audience member to just kind of accept that there are unexpected and unexplained places, like a Bermuda Triangle kind of thing, and just kind of use it as a. Like a throwaway thing. Like it's just a magical center area, but there's nothing that they do to the ship to make it go through. There's no incantation. There's nothing, you know, And I agree.

01:33:19
William
And I think Sam nailed it. I have no problem with, like, the center of the galaxy or the universe or whatever, the galactic barrier, as a concept existing. It's actually something that Star Trek did already once before in its history I think I was talking to you, Case, before the actual start of the episode there. Not everybody would know this, but the original.

01:33:40
Case
You mentioned it in the episode the Animated Series.

01:33:42
William
Okay, good, good. So, again, it's a. It's a concept that Star Trek had already done. Whether or not the original series is canon to the rest of Star Trek is. You know, it's a topic that people for a long time have debated, and I'm not gonna mention it or not, but the idea is whether or not that's where the idea came from. Not. It's. It's a solid concept. What I have a problem with is. And Sam nailed it. Right on. They. They talk about the galactic barrier as being this obstacle that needs to be overcome. And it's like, oh, my God, will they make it? But the moment they go through the aqua gel special effect or whatever, there's not even one exploding console.

01:34:22
Case
Yeah.

01:34:22
William
Not one bit of sparks. Not one piece of Styrofoam rocks. Like, the camera doesn't even shake. I just saw this again, like, a week ago. It's fresh on my mind.

01:34:31
Case
It's all fine. Everything's fine. I don't get it. I just don't goddamn get it.

01:34:35
Sam
They also get back totally fine, too.

01:34:38
William
I have a worse time going through the streets of PA with potholes than they did going through the galactic barrier.

01:34:45
Sam
They get through, and then they can go back very easily. Like, there's. It's not a barrier. It's.

01:34:51
William
It's not a barrier. It's. It's like. It's an easy pass toll. And it's not even that because, like, it's. It's in. It's insane to me that they. Everybody. And by day, I mean, the people involved in the making of this movie saw that, saw this, and they never thought this is acceptable. Because the conceit of it is that the galactic barrier is this unknown thing that no one's ever crossed. So no one's on the other side. If it was difficult to cross, I misspoke. They've done this twice in Star Trek. It wasn't the center of the universe, but in the second pilot, they cross the galactic edge. And they do, actually. The Enterprise is damaged beyond repair doing that. So they have to go to, like, a dilithium mine and get a new power source to, like, fix the engine.

01:35:33
William
So it's been done twice before in Star Trek. So none of that. Absolutely none of that. Not Scotty doesn't have to go down. And the reason the. The Klingons Take, get drop on them is because the ship's like very damaged, which was on top of already been damaged. Like there's not even this sense of like, oh my God, the ship is not in good condition. Will the ship make it through? Like, none of that. There's, there's this most vain surface level attempt at suspense that fails completely. And again, I fail to believe that in the history of Star Trek, humans have been traveling in space for about blah, blah, maybe 150, 200 years, something like that. I can't remember the numbers, but the Vulcans and other races and Dorians, Klingons have all had space trouble far before them.

01:36:18
William
And I find it simply impossible that NO1 now one like on our planet, on our Earth, we have people who climb mountains for real and bungee jump and do all sorts of stupid things, to paraphrase Captain Kirk, because they're there. So I find it impossible that no one grabbed a ship and tried and found out that it was easy and then came back.

01:36:41
Case
Especially when you can get there so fast.

01:36:44
William
Yes, absolutely. There's no sense of time. So I don't apple. So I, I shit on JJ I poop on JJ Abrams a lot because in his movies the sense of time and passage of time and distance seems completely out the window. Star Trek 5 was the first one to do it. So I will not apologize to JJ Aarons, but I will say I will acknowledge that it was not the first time it was done. Now I will say there was a way to do this if it was following that idea that this being had been manipulating Cybok all along or something like that. Maybe this being was the one who unfortunately, or maybe whoever imprisoned this being or whatever the reason this being was, maybe there's a reason or psychological.

01:37:25
William
Maybe there's this vision that people believe that they're going to destroy and once they try to cross their instruments or they have like this vision, they start believing that their ship is falling apart, so they turn around and they never go all the way through.

01:37:38
Case
Maybe, maybe this being guides them through or something to that effect because this.

01:37:42
William
Being wants them to. But that doesn't work because the being then's like, how did you get here? And we took a starship. So the being doesn't know how they got there so that the movie poops on that idea too. But again, there were ways to make this work and the movie with, I'll say it again, another pass of the script could have made these elements exactly.

01:38:00
Case
Really well, all right, can we talk about God and then we need to take our break and come back for pitches. So as I've mentioned, Kirk has met very similar entities before. It's not that weird for a starship captain to meet someone who is claiming to be God or something like a God. I, I don't have an overt problem with them having this encounter. And it's almost like kind of funny when Kirk sort of like calls to the Enterprise to attack where it. I, I tweeted like, it'd be even funnier if it was just like, yeah, huh. Photon torpedoes on my location would have been like hilarious. But it still played sufficiently like, okay, yeah, the like face to face with a celestial entity. We're gonna fucking shoot it down. Cool. Like, fine with that in this movie. It, it, that's all fine.

01:38:52
Case
The effects are not great, but that's not the deal breaker for the scene. I don't hate the, like I said, I don't hate the raw concept. It's just like what's the, just the question, why does God need a starship? Is sufficient to sort of break the whole thing and then they win by like Cybok sacrificing himself to wipe them out. Like, what's the, like, it's just not a very interesting confrontation with God.

01:39:19
William
No. I will play devil's advocate a little bit for this scene. In the most, in the most recent viewing of this movie, I will say I, I think I picked up on a couple of things that I could argue I like about it. The setting is utterly not impressive. Right. They go to the planet, which by the way, when they're going down the shadow and they're in orbit, the planet has this blue glow of energy. When they go down to the planet, the sky is like reddish. What, what's that? That's inconsistency. Stupidity. That being said, playing devil's advocate a little bit for this scene, I actually like some of the elements. Like, I like the fact that it's a shitty looking rock quarry because Cybok is like, oh my God. This as I envisioned, it's amazing. It's.

01:39:59
William
And I think that's actually kind of clever because Cybok is this ultra sellot and he's so far gone in his own beliefs and his own religion that he can't see the forest for the trees. He can't admit that this is already a red flag. Like this is not impressive. But he's talking like it is. And, and Kirk is almost true to character. Like you said, he's met Apollo he met the squire of Gothos. He's met these omnipotent beings before, so he doesn't seem impressed. And to his credit, Shatner is acting, I think, appropriately, where Kirk's, like, dubious the entire time. He's like, okay, yeah, sure. Like, Kirk wants to explore the unknown. And the movie does bring it up several times. There's a little plaque in the officers lounge where no one's gone before.

01:40:44
William
Kirk is not brainwashed, but he still goes along with it because he wants. That's the core of the character, right? He's an explorer. So props there. Props do. I think, again, Cybox sees this and he's like, this is great. It isn't. It falls apart once the actual God being shows up. And it's like, Cybox still can't see the forest for the trees. And I'm like, all right. And I think it's actually people on it. And like, hey, I. I keep saying that word. I'm sorry. I don't know.

01:41:12
Case
You're totally allowed to curse on this. On this podcast, man.

01:41:15
William
Oh, this planet. Okay, hold on. By the way, last little bit of knowledge, because that's why you brought me here. Did you know why this planet is called Shockery?

01:41:28
Case
I feel like I. Again, this is one where I feel like I have seen the story, but I cannot remember it.

01:41:33
William
You probably do. You probably do. So originally, Cybok in this movie is played by an actor called Lawrence Lockinville. He was not.

01:41:40
Case
It was supposed to be Sean Connery.

01:41:42
William
Sean Connery. And because they didn't get him, Shatner was a little butthurt. So he called the planet Sean Connery. Shock or Sean Connery. So there you go, little thing. So again, for me, that almost feels.

01:41:53
Case
Like a tribute and not being butthurt.

01:41:56
William
Maybe. Maybe I'm reading into it. Maybe I'm reading into it, but I agree with you. I. At the end of. At the end of it, I think I understand that the scene is about ultimately, like, Cybok being undone by his own hubris. Like, I get that. But the actual way it's all played out, like, Cybox, like, oh, my God, I figured out, like, God, I see your pain. Share it with me. And they're like, he's, like, fighting him like that. That all quickly goes downhill. Like, he's also not a very powerful guy. Can't escape the planet. He shoots Kirk with a lightning bolt that only seems to, like, knock him down a little bit and inconvenience him. Like, he doesn't seem to be that Much pain. He climbed some rocks afterwards.

01:42:37
Case
Yeah, it's. It's a very weak deity.

01:42:40
William
It's a very weak situation. And Kirk Shander has talked about it in other interviews that he had, like, this whole transforming landscape. It was supposed to be much more impressive looking. I actually never cared about the transformation that much. It's. Whatever. It's. It serves the function of the story well.

01:42:57
Case
Again, the special effects of God in this are not the thing that breaks this movie.

01:43:01
William
No, no. It's just, again, the idea of what the confrontation is supposed to be and how it all goes down. Very weak. And again, the photon torpedo, like, point blank. That. No, not only should that have photon torpedo killed God down, right? Maybe it definitely should have vaporized Kirk, Spock, and McCarthy Koi flat out. Like, they're no survivors. Like, they. And Kirk never says, fire a low yield photon torpedo or anything. He just says, fire photon torpedo. Maybe Chekov or Sul or whatever were smart enough to be like, yeah, we better. We better tone the. The power on. On this sucker. But it's just. I don't know. And from there just.

01:43:35
William
It degrades and then, like, I don't know if you want to pause here real quick before the pitches, but I will say, like, the end of the movie is just from here on out, it's just horrible. Like, Kirk's, like, it. It tries to pay off the whole. Like, I always knew I'd die alone. And he get, like, God gets taken out by a disruptor beam from a Klingon ship that somehow snuck up behind Kirk. Like, a motorcycle can sneak up behind me, much less a Klingon bird of prey. Like, how did that happen?

01:44:01
Case
Yeah, I don't care if it's close. Like, that's not. The cloak is supposed to hide from sensors.

01:44:06
William
Yeah. Like, it's just. It doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't work for me. And then the whole thing with, like, the whole, like, Spock being the gunner, like, you know, unnecessary. Weak. I don't know why it's there. Weak, weak. I. I'm sorry. I. I have nothing good to say about it. The only good thing I can say about this whole end sequence is when. When the Klingon ship shows up and they're trying to take out the Enterprise and demanding their surrender, Spock goes to the drunken old fool Klingon who's still been there all this time, not important enough to bring up in a conversation, and Spock looks at him and says, you can stop this. Right? And the Klingon's like, I'm just a drunken old fool.

01:44:46
William
And Leonard Nemo does an amazing job of delivering this one liner where he looks at him, he goes like, damn it, sir, you will try. Like, it's again, a nice little delivery, a nice little character moment in a week. Weak weakness. Ending of a movie.

01:45:04
Case
Yep.

01:45:04
William
Yeah.

01:45:06
Case
All right, I. I think we are agreed that this is a weaker entry in the Star Trek franchise. Probably the weakest of the original six.

01:45:15
William
Yeah.

01:45:16
Case
But I don't think.

01:45:17
William
I don't think there's much argument to be made there.

01:45:20
Case
But I think we all have some thoughts about how we can make it better. So let's take a break, and when we come back, we are going to speculate on what could have been done at the time of production to make this a stronger film.

01:45:33
William
All right, Josue, let's go through our new comic day stack.

01:45:35
Case
We have a lot to review.

01:45:37
William
I know.

01:45:37
Case
Maybe we've gone too far.

01:45:39
William
Let's see. Marvel, of course, dc. I got Image, Dark Horse, Black Mask, Boom.

01:45:46
Case
Idw, Aftershock, Vault, of course.

01:45:49
William
Mad Cave, Oni, Valiant, Scout, Magma, Behemoth.

01:45:55
Case
Wow.

01:45:56
William
That's all we need now is a.

01:45:59
Case
Name for our show. We need a name for a show.

01:46:00
William
About reviewing comic books every week. Something clever, but not too clever, like a pun.

01:46:07
Case
It's kind of cheesy.

01:46:08
William
Yeah. Something that seems funny at first, but we might regret later on as an impulsive decision. A few dozen episodes in. Yeah, we'll think of something. Join Keith and Osway for we have Issues. A weekly show reviewing almost every new comic released each week, available on Geek Elite Media and wherever you listen to your podcasts.

01:46:26
Case
And we're back. All right, now, William, so here's the deal. We have a general ethos on the show, which is that we are trying to speculate in ways that are realistic, that could have been done at the time. And then we have an actual rule about the show, which is that I cannot go before Sam. So you are our guest and you have the right to decide who goes first. However, just know that I can't go before Sam in that rule. So, like, whether it's the wolf and the sheep going across the water with the person or whatever the puzzle goes with that, I'm just not allowed to be in the first position. So you can. You can go first or Sam can go first. I'm just not allowed to go first.

01:47:09
William
You know what? If you don't mind, I'll just quickly go first, and then I want to hear. I want to. I want to be able to Then think of listened intently.

01:47:17
Case
Sure, yeah, go. Go for it.

01:47:19
Sam
Sure.

01:47:20
William
And I actually don't have too much. I think a lot of what would have been some of my fixes have already been mentioned this episode. I think the. Again, the weakest parts are. You talked about a case. The opening in Montana in the. Sorry. In Yosemite is. Could be streamlined to make space for better uses. One of the things I would do in the movie is better pace it out like less time in Yosemite, I would make the sequence going through the galactic barrier a lot more difficult. Which means, you know, it. It ups. It really does up the game and ups the intensity and the danger. So it makes it getting to chaka re a lot more earned as opposed to just like a wet fart. I.

01:48:02
William
I would have put a little bit more effort into making the Klingon character and the threat actually more interesting. Like the. The planet of galactic peace was there for a reason. So if the Klingons want to let their ambassador die, you know, that's whatever. But that's boring. Why not try to. Or make it maybe. Actually just occurred to me. I. I didn't. When I worked on my pitch, I didn't think about this. Rather than a Klingon make it a Romulan. A Romulan would have so much more reasons to maybe either undermine or kill Kirk and then make it look like they save the ambassadors so that they have a reason to have an upper hand and leverage political means. So thinking about it, yeah, my pitch would be take out the Klingons. They don't add anything to the story. Romulans make it Romulans.

01:48:50
William
I think that would definitely add.

01:48:51
Case
We don't get enough Robins in the movies. Like.

01:48:54
William
Yeah, we. Yeah, we don't. And Star Trek 3 took out is the reason for that. But again. And I think the only other thing I would have is again, I would have taken out that time in Yosemite and I think I would have added maybe more conflict on the ship of like maybe more of a power struggle of cyborg actually trying to take over the ship as opposed to just again like a word fart. No opposition. It's just his. Like make a little bit more cat and mouse intrigue and like mini sequences where it's more like not. Not Home Alone, but a little bit more like Jason Bourne. Like this, you know, like this thing where you could have really interesting sequences of Cybok ultimately struggling to take control of the ship and again makes his journey to Shuckery all that much.

01:49:41
William
More fulfilling towards the end. There's not that much I would change towards the end except I. The whole thing with the. The Klingon or the Ramens in this situation, blowing up. God, unnecessary. And the movie ends. The movie could have ended in the bridge officer scene where Kirk, Spockett, McCoy have like this like wrap up discussion of like what it means to like what was their adventure and what did they learn from it. I think that was a great ending point because then the movie has one more scene after that where they go back to Yosemite and they just sing row, row your boat finally. And don't get me wrong, that's funny. But the movie kind of just like ends and that was. Nowadays that would have been a post credit scene is what I think it would have been.

01:50:22
William
So yeah, those are kind of my pitches for what I would fix this movie.

01:50:27
Case
Yeah, I think it's not surprising that these all sound great. I love the idea of more Romulan time and having a Romulan like follow after in order for political power. Like that makes perfect sense. Like it's way more logical than what we got with the Klingon.

01:50:40
William
Than a board Klingon for sure.

01:50:42
Sam
Yeah, yeah.

01:50:43
Case
No, I love it. I think those address a lot of the issues that we have with this movie. Sam, you want to go?

01:50:49
Sam
Yeah, I absolutely agree about streamlining Yosemite because that is far too long and I think we actually. I would like to actually have some more time with Snybak and maybe even like bring elements, maybe not us hear the voice of the God that is reaching him from beyond, but like have some more of that stuff. Like if we infer in scenes like something really reaching out to him, causing this like knowledge and this reach and maybe even infer that maybe this entity is increasing his power and this is why he's going to be able to get through the great barrier. I think it would make the betrayal of whatever he's seeking, you know, the loss of not finding. Exactly. Or being tricked into this idea, being disappointed at what he found would be more meaningful for his character journey because the.

01:51:51
Sam
It is there for sure. But I think I would have liked to see something because we need to have. I want, I understand that he's a zealot. He. He believes, you know, he's got this faith. But I just would have liked a little more on him and his faith and that kind of stuff. I just feel like to have a little more explanation on like how his powers are working and all of that stuff because I just feel like the movie gets a little lost in the character work. And I think, like, in general, a lot of movies with ensembles, your villains always kind of get a little bit lost. And I always feel bad about that because I feel like villains, even if they're not full villains, even if they're people who are just misguided, what's lost in the mix? So I just.

01:52:39
Sam
I just want a little fleshing out of his powers, honestly, would be, like, the number one thing. And I think by having, like, whatever it is kind of calling to him, kind of making that, you know, like. Like I know where it is. It calls to me like, it could be something hokey like that. That's fine. That just would have been like, oh, okay, we can blame it on the Bermuda Triangle of it all. The great barrier of it all. Honestly, like, I was gonna say something else with the Klingons, but I love the Romulan so much that, like, now that's where I'm going, so screw it. And, yeah, I'm just going to piggyback a little on William because I absolutely love the Romulan.

01:53:21
Case
I mean, these pitches should be additive when someone has a great suggestion, like, how do we build off of it.

01:53:26
Sam
Yeah, yeah.

01:53:27
Case
Because I also really like the Romulan thing. And that addresses, like, one of my bigger questions for how to make the rest of this kind of work.

01:53:36
Sam
Right.

01:53:37
Case
I would definitely open with. Okay, so for starters, we're going to go with this being a rebranded Yorktown as opposed to it being a brand new ship, because that helps explain, like, why the ship is in, like, kind of rough shape and it's going to have. It's going to have payoff in a thing later. So it's actually kind of helpful to have it be an original Constitution class ship.

01:53:57
William
Now, hold on, Case. If I remember correctly from prior episodes, do you have a rule about impacting other movies? Because it's established in Star Trek 4 that this is the Enterprise A. So you would have to change the.

01:54:08
Case
Well, no. So it is now the Enterprise A, but it is a rebranded Yorktown. So it was a damaged Yorktown that was fixed up and then renamed the same way that happened with the Defiant 2 so that we can have. Yeah, so this is the Enterprise A. That explains how they're able to create a Constitution class ship so quickly, especially when it's an outdated model of ship to have in the first place. So, yeah, that opening scene could just be more interesting. But I think overall the Actual purpose of it is fine and the sequences for it is fine. It's just like, yeah, they throw a dutch angle in when he's like fucking being psychic. Like do something to make it look weird. Easy camera stuff that would fit very well within Star Trek kind of lore.

01:54:50
Case
Now cut that Earth shit down by half. It's 30 goddamn minutes. I think we're all in agreement here. Like have the mountain climb scene be way faster. Like don't have bones. Narrate the whole thing like that. He's like, now I'm going to be talking to myself. And then he just like narrates the whole like clip, climb. And it's like unnecessary but just like shorting that is like the easy part there. And like, and cutting a thing down is not the issue in terms of keeping this forward. I say this movie needs to play up its Dune aspect. The Cyboc character building his army on this planet. I feel like this should be for a while. Like I think that the first scene should be a few years earlier. Like why have it be like this recent like uprising that he's having on here?

01:55:28
Case
And I think that makes it work for him to be trapped on this planet. Like I think that he should be like a mud d, like religious figure, like stirring up shit on this like backwater world that no one thinks about. Aside from the fact that it secretly has like a lot of like clout and like, fuck it, lean into like the Dune comparison and say that this is a planet where there's like some really like hyper useful fuel thing or something for starships that like leave it as like a neutral space that all three, like all three superpowers are able to mine from. Or that there's a neutral mining company there that like all three have like ambassadors on hand to like oversee. But it's like a backwater world that everyone fucking hates.

01:56:08
Case
And that like the planet is like rich with like panhandlers or something or just people who are just dropped off there because it's, you know, the dregs like have it have like I said, lean into the dunness of this all. Like make this a really shitty planet that no one wants to be on. And Cyborg has been trapped here and he's built an army on this planet.

01:56:26
William
Yeah, and I think that speaks to something that's, I think really interesting. And one of the weaknesses of this movie is that the cyborg character comes out of nowhere and probably took a lot of people from left field. It's like not only if. Have you never heard of this character? Which is, you know, par for the course, a new movie, new character. But also then he's Park's character. If in the same movie you gave him some backstory, I think it would help a little bit. Oh, you've never heard of him because he's been here for years plotting this.

01:56:52
Case
That's why he's all working style from planet Vulcan. Like, have him be stuck on this one. Just like establish that.

01:56:57
William
Yeah, years in the. Years in the middle.

01:57:00
Case
Also, you know, again with the whole Dune thing that we can talk about cybox powers. So here's the thing about Star Trek. Star Trek loves some fucking time travel. It is built into the goddamn franchise. And the reason it's built into the goddamn franchise is that time travel was an easy way for them to shoot stuff on sets that they had in the 60s when they had very little budget. It is a reason why they kept on journeying back to periods that just happened to have TV shows that were running simultaneously, because that's what. What they had as their tools. So it's not that weird. If Sybok, who is supposed to be a psychic Vulcan, is able to see up and down time and that, like, that's how he's able to sort of access people's pain and make them relive these sequences. Like, we.

01:57:42
Case
We can lean into some of this. Like, this whole God entity is sort of empowering him with like. Like Dr. Manhattan level of being able to see the whole gym. That is it, like, is your life. We could easily, like, play up that. And like I said, just like lean into him being like this, like, truly empowered, like, psionic Vulcan who is a prodigy amongst his people in terms of his psychic powers. And that's why he's able to sort of just like, gather people quickly under his thrall. I feel really lean into it now. Why is it the Enterprise that's being sent Again, we talked about this. It's that the brass should fucking hate Kirk. Like, Kirk just recently was demoted from Admiral to Captain. Like, this should be like a suicide mission that doesn't really matter all that much.

01:58:27
Case
Like, if Kirk fucks it up, it's not the end of the world. And if Kirk doesn't fuck it up, then, hey, everyone looks good. And they. They're obligated to send someone. I think that the Klingons and the Vulcans, or pardon me, the Klingons and the Romulans should both send ships. And this is where it gets into a thought of, like, all right, so going into the barrier. So we talked about this, like why is it just a ship? Yada, yada. Well, you know what they used to call the Constitution class at the beginning when the show first came out, Starship class. So what if this being the Yorktown, it's the last in service or one of the last in service starship class ships.

01:59:04
Case
And very specifically the vision that Sybok was bestowed by this God entity was that he had to take a, not just a starship, but specifically a starship class ship through the Great Barrier. It's guided that way by, you know, visions of that God presents to him and he's able to like navigate through. But I think it should also require a cloaking device and I think they should outfit the Enterprise with a, I was going to say a Romulan, but now actually I'm going to flip it a Klingon cloaking device and then have the Romulans follow. And so like they have to like travel through territory that like the cloak is an essential part. Either it's hostile territory and you can introduce a new alien species if you want.

01:59:43
Case
Maybe that's why no one goes to the barrier, because there's like there like that's as far as they've ever managed to get and before they all die. And so like that helps explain why they're able to do any of this because like the, one of the things that's special and one of the things Cybok would have a hard time getting access to is a cloaking device that is not necessarily like super accessible to someone in the Federation.

02:00:05
William
Yeah, I mean that's if you don't mind, that's interesting. Like, I really like the idea of like it having to be a specific type of ship because it speaks to like this religious, like it has to be this, there's a vision and it's like this one ship is like the Ark that will carry you to me like that. That makes the journey much more interesting than I just have to cross the galactic plane.

02:00:27
Case
It's not just a ship. It has to be a specific type of ship.

02:00:31
William
It has to be a Pacific ship. That, that's why the journey, that's why you can't just go anywhere and steal any old ship. Because honestly, Cybox seems to be an intelligent guy. Why can't he just steal any other ship? He, There's a line in the movie where he's like this planet is a worthless piece of rock, but he has one thing that no, one thing that no other planet has, it has the three of you here, meaning the three ambassadors from the three powers. But the other two powers in the movie are technically never used in the movie. The Klingons are there, but it's just one row captain. So I like that your pitch actually gives the other two powers urgency. I also like that you said it has to be a Romulan. A Klingon cloak, not a Romulan coke.

02:01:09
William
And I find that funny because in lore, the Klingons got there.

02:01:14
Case
Well, I'm just saying from the. The alliance they make is with the Klingons, not the Rodmans, which is. Is less insane because by this point, TNG is out and we know that eventually that the Klingons are in an uneasy peace with. With the Federation in the future. So that all makes sense there. Now, here's a question. How do we get over the. Over Shatner's ego? Because, like, that's a big problem with this movie. Like, he glorifies Kirk to a degree and denigrates everyone else. So what would make this interesting? Stroke his eagle. Stroke his ego. Pardon me? Stroke his eagle, please.

02:01:50
William
Oh, no, no. I know exactly how I would. Here's.

02:01:53
Case
Here's my pitch on this one. So for Act 2, Part 2. So basically from the time Cybok actually like defeats the crew of the Enterprise, Kirk actually gets like brainwashed and acts as the right hand man to Cybok for overtaking the Enterprise and also the Romulan ship that are involved in this whole thing, that Kirk is super dangerous under the thrall of Sybok. Now the reason that Sybok doesn't do anything to Spock is that Spock is not just his brother, but also a character who has died and come back. So he wants to use him as a religious symbol, but he needs him to be a willing participant in this. And that sort of can be a, an admission that the people are being controlled as opposed to just, you know. Exactly, exactly.

02:02:40
Case
And, and so like Spock's mission throughout this, like the B plot of this section of the movie is that Spock is freeing people. Like, we can have that. Scotty evaded everything and was. Is just too goddamn smart. And I, you know, like I said, like he has. There was an accident or something blew up or something, and he went to go look at it and that he turned around and all of a sudden things are. Have been taken over or Kirk is like out of his mind. He. He gets a message from Kirk where it's like, that doesn't sound like Jim. And then, you know, we. We continue on from there. And this way, like, Kirk can be, like, this badass character who's able to defeat, like, everyone on the crew or, like, outthink everyone on the crew and also these Romulans. But at.

02:03:19
Case
But he's doing it in the service of Sybok, and thus we have an engaging plot for him. And like I said, it splits up him from Spock. And Spock and McCoy can be, like, part of, like, the, you know, the rebellion team on this whole thing while they're, like, traveling to the Great Barrier. And then ultimately, when freed, either Kirk can bring them along and, like, they're curious.

02:03:42
William
Kirk.

02:03:42
Case
Kirk should break out for the whole, like, why does God need a starship Bit. I think that scene could be tighter. Tighter is the wrong word. I feel like you could rewrite that and not have it be like, why does God need a starship? Like, you know, it could be a more interesting point, but, like, I get the idea that Kirk snaps out of it and, like, snaps everyone out of it. So maybe having him already be under the thrall and, like, is able to finally, like, fight. It is a testament to his character. And so, again, we're just, like, boosting Kirk, but we're doing it in a way that is, like, dramatically interesting, as opposed to him just being, like, along for the ride. And then. And then eventually, like, why does God need a starship?

02:04:16
Case
You know, like, give him some pathos in the scene. Like, have him, you know, break free of the. Of the. Of the commanding nature of Cybok. Because, again, as we noted, this is not a very powerful deity. And so it's fine to have him not be, like, I think that Sybok actually should be the raw power that he really needs. Like, Sybok's psionic powers as a Vulcan and as this, you know, prodigious Vulcan are how this God character is able to control these people. Like, this God character couldn't do it on his own. Like, he might be able to amplify the power of Psybok, but Sybok is the actual weapon here. And that makes Cybok more interesting. And, you know, it makes him having a direct, you know, relationship with Spock.

02:04:59
Case
And so you have to ask yourself, how powerful is Spock secretly in this whole situation? Like, is Spock too. Too reserved to use his own degree of, like, psionic abilities? I think those are interesting questions to ask there, but, yeah, and that's. That's My big thing.

02:05:12
William
Yeah, I mean, I think it's really interesting because, you know, a good movie is a good hero is only as good as your antagonist. And if your antagonist is a bit of a wet blanket, then your hero by, you know, by extension. So I, I like the idea of, I guess giving Cybok more meat in the script and maybe more power. It makes him a bigger obstacle for the heroes to overcome. And I do. And I. You know, when you started throwing your idea of, like, Kirk being brainwashed, at first I was like, really? I don't know about that. And then I started thinking about it. I'm like, it's actually not. Not only do I think it actually makes sense in as a story tool, but I think actually Shatner himself would have liked it.

02:05:53
William
And the reason I say that is because you almost described his plot for Kirk coming back to life in his novel the Return, where Shatner gets brought back to life by the Romulans and Borg using technology and he basically, it becomes a slave of the Romulans and he's used as a weapon and he's shown as like being a. It's like Kirk unleashed, like Kirk without his. The angels on his shoulders telling him what to do. Just Kirk without any restrictions is like a force of nature and he's like, really dangerous and really bad.

02:06:25
Case
And we know that Shatner loves playing an evil Kirk. Like, he enjoys playing evil Kirks when he shows up, when they do, like the split good, evil Kirk episode of the original series. I'm going to be honest, the thing that sort of like drove that particular idea was the episode of Beast wars when Optimus Primal gets, like, turned into a raging lunatic. Like, but I think that Shatner would really dig it and it would be really cool to show off like a locutus ass fucking Kirk, but in this case it's that he's in the thrall of a psychic cult leader as opposed to the Borg. Yeah. So, yeah, I think he could be an interesting.

02:07:01
Case
And he's not the villain of the movie, but he would be, you know, have a villainous portion of the movie where he gets, you know, he's getting to play the greatest hits of his Star Trek career.

02:07:09
William
Yeah. I mean, again, I think there probably would be something about his directorial debut where he may not want his protagonist to have to, even for a part of the movie, you know, be a lackey to someone else. But I think if you explained the acting potential and then the reward at the end of the movie, I can't see how he wouldn't like be like, yeah, this is a good story.

02:07:34
Case
And when I say, like have, like, when I say he would be Cybox Dragon, like, I want him to be like the Darth Vader to the Emperor here. Like, it's not just a lackey, it's like it should be the elite.

02:07:47
William
And I would add something to that, to your pitch. I think one way to really present that would be if you have both governments involved and say there's been up until this point in the movie, there's a Romulan ship and a Klingon ship. Half Kirk be so good that even with this Yorktown, maybe one of the ships, maybe he destroys one of those ships. Like, he's so good and people remember how dangerous he's as a Starfleet come as a starship commander, that he is not only able to, even with an older ship, not only hold off both of them, but maybe even destroy one of them. It's like, holy cow, Kirk is badass and dangerous right now when he's unleashed.

02:08:23
William
So, I mean, that building on your idea, that might be a cool way to not only do it, but also trim the fat towards the end the movie because still juggling three ships and that climax, you got the crew, the Enterprise, you got Cybox, you got God, and then you have those two other ships. That. That's a crowded ending. So that's also a good way to trim it down a little bit for that ending.

02:08:43
Sam
Yeah, yeah.

02:08:43
Case
So that was my thoughts there. And I feel like all of ours can kind of like synergize pretty well here because, like, again, like, your pitch about having an actual stocking them is great. So have it be, you know, like I said, like the. Have it be a starship, have it be a Constitution class vessel that gets outfitted with some Klingon tech and like have some Klingons on board so you can have them represented. But then have, like I said, the Romulan be the. Or rather like you said, have it be the Romulans, like chasing them. Because I think that's more interesting.

02:09:13
William
Yeah, yeah. It's more interesting than just a sleeveless guy shooting space to sport out of his mind.

02:09:21
Sam
Although, you know, still he offers you the opportunity to eventually be a sleeveless Klingon.

02:09:28
William
Oh, my goodness, please. Maybe one day, if you ever talk to my director, tell him that maybe.

02:09:33
Case
For Farragut Forward three, you know, I'm.

02:09:37
William
I have, I have put it out there in passing that if I do come back, there Will be changes to my.

02:09:43
Case
I don't blame you. It's. I've. I've seen how difficult it was to. To function in that.

02:09:48
William
Maybe, maybe they, maybe that one scene I have, they call me and they just caught me out of bed. So I'm in my Klingon pajamas or something. I don't know.

02:09:56
Case
Yeah, all right.

02:09:58
Sam
That'd be great. It's sleeveless pajamas.

02:10:00
William
Oh my goodness.

02:10:01
Case
Sleeveless leather pajamas. All right. I feel like we have done a pretty good job tackling this movie and sort of assessing the areas where it could have been stronger. You know, it's. It's still a Star Trek movie. Like, I still enjoy it. Like it's, you know, probably the worst Star Trek movie, but. But it's still a Star Trek movie.

02:10:23
William
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, again, it flips. Flip the coin. Some days it's this, some days it's into darkness. But at the end of the day, I'd rather watch this than a bunch of other stuff out there. So.

02:10:35
Case
But yeah. So, William, thank you for coming on and for giving us a chance to talk about this and for giving us the chance to round out all of the odd numbered Star Trek movies. So, like, go us, goddammit.

02:10:46
Sam
Yeah, yeah.

02:10:47
William
For anybody listening to this, I take full responsibility. Again. Casey and I talked about this for a long time and we finally decided to pull the trigger on it.

02:10:56
Case
Go us and go you. And where can people find you, by the way? Where can people find you? Follow you? What have you got going on?

02:11:02
William
Yeah, I mean, right now the next thing that people can follow me on is Farragut Forward. The product that we've been working on for. Oh my God, feels like so long. It's been like what, three years, I think, since its inception when we did the prologue. The prologue for Farragut Forward is on YouTube. We did it as a test just to see if it would. What. What would Farragut for those. And I won't go into the whole spiel. Farragut was like this long running YouTube fan film series for Star Trek here in the Washington D.C. Area.

02:11:32
William
Getting involved with them through, getting to meet them at conventions, we kind of floated the idea around and finally decided if Farragut Forward were brought into the movie era, which is the era that all of us involved in it are really passionate about, what would it look like? So we did this little three minute short. It came out great, got a lot of support. So that led to us making a full length movie, a 30 minute movie, which is about to debut where we've finished off main photography. We're in editing.

02:11:58
Case
I should note that by the time this episode drops, the that Farragut Forward will have premiered.

02:12:03
William
Oh my goodness. Even better. Even better. So people will be able to catch me on that, hopefully on YouTube. Other than that, I don't really have any other film products lined up yet. It's really. I work a lot with Chaotica Studio, so whenever in Farragut Forward film, so whenever they need me, I'm hopefully going to be involved with that. Normally just follow me on. The easiest way is follow me on instagram under william_j87 and is that spelled.

02:12:27
Case
Out or is that just the letter?

02:12:28
William
Oh, sorry. Williamjay87 okay.

02:12:33
Case
Yeah, I couldn't remember off the top of my head, so I just wanted to make sure.

02:12:37
William
Yeah, good call. You guys can follow me. You guys can also find me on Facebook on William J. I post a lot there. But really, if you want to find out what conventions we're going to and that kind of stuff, Instagram's the easiest way to find.

02:12:49
Case
Nice. And Sam, if people wanted to find you, how could they do that?

02:12:53
Sam
Well, I am here so you can find me wherever you listen to podcasts for another pass occasionally. Probably should do it more, but occasionally I do check our discord. Other than that you can't find me because I am searching for my own God somewhere in the center of the universe. And if you have any complaints about anything I said tonight, you can find case at.

02:13:22
Case
You can find me on most platforms Esyakin except for Instagram where I am holding onto my AIM screen name for dear life. So there you can find me at quetzalcoatl5, which is Q U E T Z A L C o a T L5 because I was a pretentious mythology nerd and Legion of Superhero nerd in high school. Anyway. So you can also find the show on Twitter n otherpass. You can find us at our website certainpov.com where you can find more episodes of this shows as well as a ton of other great podcasts. I'm gonna give a shout out to our now dearly departed Screensnark. The episodes are still live and they're evergreen.

02:13:58
Case
Wonderful conversation between Matt, our former editor, our friend Rachel, and then whatever cool guests they wanted to have on to just talk about the media that was inspiring them and what they've got going on with their lives. It was a great interview show that used media as a jumping off point in terms of having These, like, deeper conversations about who you are and everything. So that was a really good show. And you know what? Like, it's sad that it has ended, but it was a great run. It went for six years and that's an impressive load for a show. So really cool show. Go check out some of those episodes. Maybe check out the one that I was on. Sam, you were on that one, right? Yeah. So check out those two episodes. Actually three episodes.

02:14:34
Case
Because I also, when we did the Round Robin for CPOV years ago, ran it because the other guys hadn't actually listened to the show. But yeah, so, so check that one out and then circle back. Sam mentioned our Discord. So you can find us there. You can find me there. There's a link in the description for the episode, or if you go to certainpow.com, there's links all over the place. You can get on our Discord. We're very inviting. It's a lot of fun chatting. The conversations have been really great recently. And yeah, once you've had your fill of Discord Chat or Instagram as but to say photos or videos, all the things that Instagram has.

02:15:14
Case
And if you've checked out our YouTube channel, certain POV media where you can find these episodes or as well as videos that I work on, you should come back and check out our next episode. Sam, what have we got coming up next?

02:15:27
Sam
Next time we'll be talking about Highlander 2 the Quickening. But until then, if you enjoyed this, pass it on.

02:15:38
William
Thanks for listening to Certain Point of View's Another Pass podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on itunes. Just go to certainpov.com Another pass is.

02:15:52
Sam
A certain POV production. Our hosts are Sam Alicea and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sofia Richardi. Our logo and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our intro theme is by Vin Macri and our outro theme is by Matt Brogan.