Another Pass at Another Pass at Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

Let’s look back at the time Addy Thomas joined Case to talk about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 3!

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Meeting summary:

●      During the Podcast Recording / Movie Analysis Discussion meeting, the participants discussed various aspects of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 3 movie. They delved into the franchise's history, analyzed the film's plot, critiqued the character development, and suggested ways to improve the story by incorporating the Foot Clan and refining the time travel concept. They also ranked the Ninja Turtles movies, highlighted the appeal of the franchise, and shared ideas for enhancing the plot and character reactions to time travel.

Notes:

●      🎬 Intro and Ninja Turtles Franchise (00:00 - 08:18)

●      Case and Sam discuss their fatigue and stress

●      They introduce the podcast topic: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 3

●      Mention of Adi Thomas as a guest from Certain Point of View podcast

●      Discussion of previous Ninja Turtles movies and their quality

●      🐢 Ninja Turtles History and Movies (08:18 - 13:59)

●      Addie shares his experience with Ninja Turtles franchise

●      Discussion of different tones in the first three movies

●      Comparison of animated series to movies

●      Praise for current Ninja Turtles show's character development

●      🎥 TMNT 3 Analysis (13:59 - 22:01)

●      Criticism of TMNT 3's inconsistencies and poor choices

●      Discussion of Jim Henson's studio no longer making animatronics

●      Suggestion to keep the time travel concept but improve execution

●      Idea to incorporate Foot Clan into the feudal Japan setting

●      🦹 Villains and Plot Improvement (22:01 - 29:44)

●      Criticism of generic villains in TMNT 3

●      Suggestion to include Foot Clan or early version of Shredder

●      Discussion of missed opportunities with Japanese history and ninjas

●      Idea to incorporate TGRI and super science for time travel plot

●      🕰️ Time Travel and Plot Concepts (29:44 - 37:31)

●      Discussion of alternative time travel concepts

●      Suggestion to tie the plot to Foot Clan's origins

●      Idea to make the movie about 'ninjas versus ninjas versus ninjas'

●      Criticism of white savior tropes in the movie

●      🎭 Character Development and Franchise Appeal (37:31 - 47:18)

●      Discussion of Ninja Turtles' appeal across different iterations

●      Analysis of character development in TMNT 3

●      Praise for Ninja Turtles franchise's ability to refresh itself

●      Discussion of relatability of Ninja Turtles characters

●      🏆 Ranking Ninja Turtles Movies (47:18 - 58:42)

●      Case and Sam rank various Ninja Turtles movies

●      Discussion of personal connections to Ninja Turtles franchise

●      Analysis of which Turtle each relates to most

●      Praise for Ninja Turtles as a strong franchise concept

●      🔄 Plot Improvement Ideas (58:43 - 01:10:42)

●      Discussion of potential plot improvements for TMNT 3

●      Suggestion to tie the story more closely to Foot Clan

●      Ideas for better integrating time travel concept

●      Criticism of inconsistent character reactions to time travel

●      🛠️ Specific Plot Fix Suggestions (01:10:43 - 01:23:45)

●      Ideas for improving the time travel device introduction

●      Suggestion to start the movie in the modern world

●      Discussion of potential for innovative time travel comedy

●      Criticism of movie's focus on merchandising over plot

Transcription

00:00
Case
Just weird energy. I'm so fucking tired, and I have to open tomorrow, so I have to be, like, up super early. So I'm, like, stressed about that, which isn't helping anything.

00:09
Sam
No. Anyway, take a deep breath. Let's focus. And we're gonna get this. We're gonna get this done. We're gonna talk turtles.

00:15
Case
Ninjas versus ninjas versus.

00:17
Sam
Ninjas versus samurais versus guys with guns.

00:21
Case
Versus pirates, learning about hockey. Hey, everyone, and welcome. Welcome back to another pass. At another pass, I am case aikend, and as always, I am joined by my co host, Sam Alasea.

00:39
Sam
Hi.

00:40
Case
And I say, as always, because you've been my steadfast companion for about three years now, and we've been friends for long before that.

00:49
Sam
Right, right.

00:50
Case
But there was a time on this show before you were a co host. And so we are going back and looking at those episodes so that you can provide your insight about the movies and how you would affix them at the time. So today we are taking another pass at Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles three. And I've been really excited about this episode for many reasons. For one thing, I was really excited to get your input on yet another Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie because we love the Turtles. We love the Ninja Turtles.

01:22
Sam
Love them. We love them.

01:24
Case
But I also was excited about this because it's actually pretty short and concise and really on point kind of pitch for a movie. And I remember being very proud of it to the point where if you go to our YouTube channel, the intro trailer for a certain point of view that plays whenever you go to our YouTube channel, that trailer includes one clip from another pass, and that one clip from another pass is me saying, ninjas versus ninjas. And this is a fun episode with Adi Thomas from certain point of view. And this is the first time that I had a certain point of view host on solo because we joked about how Ben was not a big fan of Ninja Turtles. So that's why it's just Addie. And we say that at literally the first thing in the episode.

02:16
Sam
Yeah.

02:16
Case
So it's not a spoiler for this episode, but it's great having Addie. It is interesting. The audio quality, for me, sounds like a little augmented, if you will. Like, it sounds like I'm too far away from the mic because we're in the same room together. And, like, Addie sounds amazing, and I just sound, like, kind of echoey.

02:38
Sam
Yeah, he does sound really good. Yeah. I mean, there are definitely points where you sound better than others. So maybe you were just so into the conversation you were going back and forth from the mic.

02:50
Case
Yeah, it's into the, you know, quite.

02:51
Sam
Gotten your on mic, you know, professional.

02:55
Case
Sound, as you do now with my blue snowball. Ironically, switching to a different mic made me sound worse, and so I switched back for that and other reasons. Hi. Yes, I am a hack as far as podcasting goes. Anyway, it's a short episode and I really like it because we do a real pitch. We don't really spend that much time talking about the things that we like because we are having a hard time not ripping on this movie because, like, I think Ninja Turtles Three Moo is a movie that holds up to what I think about Ninja Turtles movies in general, which is that I'm never mad to have watched them, but it is still, like, a frustrating movie to talk about.

03:41
Case
And so, like, once we get on that tear, the only thing we can do is, like, shift it to being productive instead of destructive. So we don't spend too much time on, like, the, like, the pros of the movie, but we do. We do rip on it a little bit, and then I think we have some really good, productive conversation about it. So I'm excited for everyone to listen to that.

04:01
Sam
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think. I think also, this is early. This is pretty early in the podcast, so, you know, we make a conscious effort to try to, like, really talk about the movie pluses and minuses. Right. We try to keep it positive. So this is pretty early on where it was just buddy sitting around kind of talking about it. And there is, like you said, a lot of things in this film that just don't add up and could have been done a lot better. But I still enjoy it. I put that out there.

04:38
Case
Yep. Well, why don't we stop beating around the bush and allow this ninja less ninja movie to become the front and center of the conversation as we.

04:51
Sam
Yeah. Let's go back in time.

04:53
Case
Let's go back in time.

04:53
Case
Yes.

04:56
Case
And so we will join everyone on the other side of this episode and see you soon.

05:06
Addy
Welcome to certain point of views, another pass podcast. Be sure to subscribe, rate and review on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com.

05:18
Case
Thank you guys for tuning in to a certain point of views, another pass podcast. I'm case Aiken, and today I'm joined by Addie Thomas.

05:25
Addy
Hey, nerf herders. From a different show this time. It's weird, but oddly similar.

05:32
Case
Well, I mean, the weird part is that we are missing the other member of this triumvirate which is.

05:38
Addy
I'm totally okay with that.

05:39
Case
Yeah, I'm kind of okay with that, too.

05:41
Addy
So he just hates the Ninja Turtles.

05:44
Case
He does. And that's what we're talking about today, guys. We are talking about Ninja Turtles three. Some people call it turtles in time, although that's not actually what it's called.

05:52
Case
In the box office.

05:55
Addy
Was it a failure?

05:56
Case
It was a moderate success when I looked up the numbers, but it's definitely not a good movie. So we like to talk about movies that could be good, could be bad, but have potential to be great. I would say the majority of the potential for this movie to be great lies in the fact that I love the Ninja Turtles and has nothing to do with the movie itself. But I still wanted to talk about it. Thanks for joining me on this conversation.

06:20
Addy
Sure. I always am down for a Ninja Turtles discussion. It is like that is. I blame my addiction to pizza on the Ninja Turtles.

06:30
Case
Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. There were power ups in video games. So it's just like, eat pizza, get your health.

06:34
Addy
Exactly. I feel like that should be my, that's what my diet should consist of. But obviously that's led to very dark.

06:41
Case
Places, so it covers all the bases just a little too well sometimes, right? Yeah. So we're talking about Ninja turtles three. The third movie in the series started way back in, I think was 1990, was when the first one came out. Right. The series that initially had all the Jim Henson designs. It was really cool for like, what it was. It was like one of the biggest successes of a non major studio movie. Kind of the way that the comic was a major success for a non major publication comic book. It's a series that should be really interesting. And it ended on such a down note with this movie. Yes.

07:22
Case
I don't know.

07:23
Case
Adi, what do you think about the first two?

07:25
Addy
So, you know, it's interesting, like, going back. Cause it's been a little while since I've watched it. I think actually, like maybe five years ago was the last time I actually rewatched the three of these movies. And I kind of. I kind of did it in a little bit of a marathon, too. So it was a very weird experience because they're each actually significantly different in tone and style. And it's really weird to see that because as a kid, I just remember it as like, oh, it was the Ninja Turtles in live action. That's amazing. Who could want anything more than that? Cause I totally embraced the camp and the fun of the nineties or the late eighties, early nineties animated show. That was my Ninja Turtles, not necessarily the original, very dark, violent version of them that agreed.

08:15
Case
And I think that's where a lot of people came into it.

08:17
Addy
Right.

08:18
Case
I mean, the show was such a huge hit. Oh, it was so wonderful.

08:21
Case
And, like, it was.

08:22
Case
It was really good, too. Like, the first season, which is only, like six episodes or something, is really good. Like, the animation is really good.

08:29
Case
Like, the story is actually, like, flows really well. Yeah.

08:31
Case
And then the second season's a little rough, but then. But then it picks up again after.

08:34
Addy
That, which is funny because I also tried marathoning those episodes, too, and it was just the second season where I started to fall off.

08:39
Sam
Yeah.

08:39
Case
You're like, I don't know if I can do this. And then if you keep going through.

08:42
Addy
It, there's only so many times I can hear Shredder yell Turtle. Yeah.

08:45
Case
You know Uncle Phil. Right.

08:49
Addy
He will be missing, you know, from a different perspective also, though, and this is my plug for the current Ninja Turtle show. I actually really.

08:57
Case
Oh, it's really good.

08:58
Addy
It's, like, great character development. Shredder is a legit villain. Everyone's a legit villain in this. In this story. And, like, there's, like, tragic characters. It's. It's act like it's a pretty well developed series, even like, the early two.

09:11
Case
Thousands series, which I liked what at the time, I think was a little too jarring for me coming off of the original show. Like, I still like, in retrospect, that.

09:19
Case
Was really good too.

09:20
Case
Like, I don't think there's been a.

09:22
Case
Turtle property that I flat out hated.

09:24
Addy
Well, there's the tour where they went, like, that's true.

09:28
Case
But at the time, I really liked it.

09:29
Addy
That's true.

09:31
Case
I had that cassette tape that I got from Pizza Hut and I listened to.

09:34
Addy
It was their appearance on Oprah.

09:36
Case
Yes, I remember all of that. It was so weird, the life we led in the late eighties, early nineties, man. But, yeah, like, the first movie, I think it, like, the first comic book was they were doing. They. They didn't have anyone telling them what they could or couldn't do. So they were like, we're gonna make it. And it's really faithful, actually, to that original story. Like, there's a lot of stuff very similar. Aside from Shredder being, like, a little more successful, there's a lot of it that's really faithful to that original black and white comic book. And it does a really good job.

10:06
Case
With all of that.

10:07
Case
And they could be a little dark, and they could have some, you know, edgier references. It was still fun. And, like, as a kid, I didn't get some of it that, you know, I could see a parent being, objecting to. But when you move to the next one, you can see it becomes a lot more family friendly because there's some money behind it and people actually care.

10:25
Addy
Endorsements and action figures.

10:27
Case
Well, and also there's, like, the weird stuff. Like, for example, in England, they're not allowed to show nunchucks being used. And I think it is in Korea, they're not allowed to be called Ninja turtles. I think they have to be called hero turtles.

10:39
Addy
Really?

10:39
Case
Yeah. It might also be England. For the hero turtles part, there's a lot of associations with violence and darker.

10:46
Addy
Stuff, which is an interesting thing, especially with those first two live action movies. Cause they're not really allowed to use their weapons.

10:52
Case
Well, in the first one, they do. In the second one, they definitely stop. It's a hard stop right off the bat. All the weapon use in the second one is like, oh, I'm gonna use this for some other effect. Like, I'm going to stick my sword in the ceiling so that I can hold onto it while I kick.

11:07
Addy
Right. Swing around. Yeah.

11:10
Case
No, I mean, they use their weapons pretty effectively. In the first one, they don't show anyone get their heads cut off or anything, but Leonardo tries. There's quite a few spots there.

11:19
Addy
That's true. You know what that is. One thing I do actually like with the third one is that they do get to use their weapons quite a bit.

11:28
Case
That's true.

11:30
Addy
I'm looking for silver lightning.

11:31
Sam
Yeah.

11:32
Case
So.

11:32
Case
All right, so first one I really like. Second one's kind of goofy, but ultimately, like, I think it's still a fun movie. It's hard not to look at it with rose colored glasses.

11:40
Addy
Right.

11:41
Case
I think it's a much worse movie than the first one. I think the first one is legitimately good once you get past, like, the weird. Oh, they're turtles. And also, the production quality is fairly low.

11:50
Addy
Right.

11:51
Case
But I still dig it.

11:52
Case
But the third one is not.

11:54
Addy
No, it really isn't. It's just vague and weird and kind of aimless. It just kind of wanders in a very weird way.

12:00
Case
Yeah.

12:01
Addy
And. But I will say, before we get into the third movie, I will say what I do love about number two, though, is vanilla ice. That is an important to me, that is an important part of Turtle's lore that I will never be ashamed of that part.

12:17
Case
Oh, yeah. Well, there was a lot of good stuff in that movie. I really liked the base that they found in the second one. I was obsessed after that with finding an underground subway station that could be turned into my ninja turtle home. I liked some of the stuff they showed on how you become a member of the foot with, oh, you have to take all these bells without making a sound. Yeah. And, like, Hino, I thought, was a fairly cool, like, sidekick character.

12:47
Addy
Like, as audience viewpoints, sometimes kids can be.

12:51
Case
Well, especially because he was, like, a teenager martial artist.

12:53
Addy
Right.

12:56
Case
Surf ninja. But let's talk about ninja Turtles three now. Uf is right. Indeed.

13:06
Addy
Yeah. There's just, like, glaring inconsistencies as you watch the whole thing.

13:10
Case
Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing I would do is try to keep Jim Hinton's studio making the animatronics instead of switching off, which. It's so jarring. It really is so much worse.

13:23
Addy
Yeah. Yeah. There's so much, like, design, like. Well, the design of the shogun costumes for the turtles is really weird.

13:33
Case
Yeah.

13:33
Case
And their respective japanese history is really all over the place.

13:36
Addy
Yeah.

13:39
Case
All right. I guess, like, I mean, I'm trying to avoid this just being, like, a.

13:43
Case
Bitch fest about this movie.

13:44
Addy
Yeah, absolutely.

13:45
Case
Let's talk about what we could do to fix it or why a thing is bad and how it could better right now. So the time travel plot, I found kind of alien to the franchise, especially the movies that we'd been in at up until this point.

13:58
Addy
Yeah. Which is funny because, you know, coming back to the current Ninja Turtles series, like, time travel is a pretty big part of it, but it felt totally random, like, finding an artifact at, like, a thrift shop. Yeah. Which is also weird that April is just buying, like, random crap for the turtles as gifts, but, yeah, it feels like there's space where they had a lot of things that they could mine to use for time travel instead of this random artifact. Like, you've got multi dimension travel with the turtles, with Dimension X, with the Krang.

14:32
Case
Yeah.

14:32
Case
Although I think they would have to do some setup in this movie because that's not the turtles that we've gotten in the first two movies.

14:38
Addy
Right. Because it was so focused on Shredder and the Foot clan.

14:41
Case
Yeah.

14:42
Case
Those first two movies are fairly grounded, even, like, the introduction of the ooze, which is just the thing that allows the turtles to exist in the first place.

14:48
Addy
Right.

14:49
Case
Is still, like, only it, like, that's the most out there thing that, like, takes it into the realm of, like, science fiction.

14:55
Addy
Right.

14:56
Case
You know, the first movie has almost nothing aside from the fact that they're giant turtles.

14:59
Addy
Yeah.

15:00
Case
Which is surprisingly, like, modern in its interpretation of superheroes.

15:05
Addy
Yeah. But you know what? I think they could still. I think that the movie could still afford, like, I don't think. Yeah. I think the time travel element is a little odd for the turtles up until this point, but I think introducing the ooze was the first step to getting there. So I think the time travel concept isn't one that you don't need to abandon necessarily, because otherwise, you abandon the whole premise of the movie.

15:25
Case
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, unfortunately, we can't just be, like, write a different movie, no matter how much I want that to be the answer.

15:34
Addy
Well, but you know what? The concept of the turtles, like, in feudal Japan is sort of.

15:39
Case
Oh, yeah.

15:40
Case
It's fun. And, like, they. You can get some good looks out of it. You can do a lot of fun with it. But what, here's the thing. If they're gonna use or if the stepping stone for the crazier out there things is going to be the ooze, then you've got to go in that direction. You can't do a 180.

15:54
Addy
Exactly.

15:54
Case
The ooze is super science. It's not mystic. So if you're going to follow the ooze as being the thing that takes people from being people to being, like, out there comic book figures, it really should be more of that super science. And I'm not saying Dimension X. I'm not saying any of that, like, because that also has not been set up, but super science in general. Like, here's my biggest problem with this movie. Where the hell is the foot clan in a movie about Japan?

16:19
Addy
That was my big problem, too.

16:20
Case
That's the craziest part.

16:22
Addy
It's the perfect opportunity to go back and deal with the Foot clan, either.

16:25
Case
Their origin or have an earlier version of the shredder. Have bad guys, like, the foundation of the Foot clan or the Foot clan are the people who are doing stuff, and they find out that the foot is actually responsible for whatever's going on when they go back into Japan. It's like, what a missed opportunity is that?

16:41
Addy
Exactly.

16:42
Case
Oh, my God. Thank you for being on the same page with me.

16:45
Addy
I was thinking of the entire movie. I'm just watching. I'm seeing generic father villain and rebels and this white, you know, these white. I don't even know what. What they were necessary. I mean, I guess it makes sense for the era. I guess if it 18, was it sort of thirties, 1850s, sort of.

17:02
Case
It's.

17:05
Addy
We never really got into actual time.

17:07
Case
No. And it's. There's actually no time that quite matches up. If they were Dutch, that would match up better.

17:12
Case
Right.

17:13
Case
The. The timeline that present. It's such a weird justification. Like, it's a weird for them to be speaking English, and that's the only reason it's there. And I think that it's kind of dumb, especially because of how rarely they have big conversations with people who are not either white or higher educated people anyway. So it's sort of like, okay, why even bother with this? I don't know. Do you want me to give a full pitch right now?

17:42
Addy
Yeah.

17:43
Case
Here's my thought. So open the movie modern day. Don't do the flashback stuff. Initially open up with modern day. They are pursuing the remnants of the foot clan that they have since, you know, that they've bested so frequently, but there's still some of it left in New York. They are chasing after them. They find themselves at some TGRI, like, super science like location where they're doing research involving tachyons. The foot does something that causes them to go, or, like, April to go back in time and they have to follow her. And they go back in time to feudal Japan, because why not? It makes as much sense as anything else.

18:20
Addy
I'm totally digging this.

18:21
Case
And they go back and they find out that there's this whole thing going on with ninjas who are manipulating behind the scenes politics. And they eventually run afoul of the first shredder, like the first leader of the foot clan. And that's the big plot there. If you want to have a person. So they speak English. I'm thinking, have a priest. Have like a, have like a jesuit priest who's there and, like, that person they run into. And that's the person that they have to carry around with them because they don't speak the language with most of the people. And so you have, you can do all these, like, jokes based on, like, subtitles and then translations and so forth. And that's their way of communicating with people.

19:03
Case
And then sure, some of the, like, higher echelon people there might speak English, but your bad guy then is like a proto shredder. He's not the daimyo, he's not the shogun. He's just, or he's the master of ninjas. Because they're ninjas. And they take on the role of samurai to fight this, like, clan of ninjas. But, like, we keep the ninja part in this movie about feudal Japan, right. And then we also don't go into this, like, weird scenario where there's, like, a little bit of, like, it's like, look how awesome white people are in this movie about feudal Japan with, like, this english traitor who's like, look at. Look at all my guns. Guns are awesome, right? Like, how awesome are guns? Guns change the deal always. Like, if it was gonna be about a bad guy, white guy, like, cool.

19:46
Case
But it's so weird that then, like, he's. He's sort of evil in one way. And then you've also got the dad who's, like, the evil bad guy, right, who, like, is also kind of incompetent, which makes it even worse.

19:56
Addy
So many different directions, and it's kind of like you don't know really who to hate or why because they're just generic villains that are there.

20:04
Case
Yeah.

20:04
Addy
But no real purpose.

20:06
Case
Yeah. So have this be about the foot and the origins of the foot clan, or if not the origins. And actually, I think this might even better. The foot clan is well established, but they're the ones who, like, kick them out of being an official part of the Shogun's hierarchy of political power, and so they lose favor, and that's why they become more of a criminal group as opposed to just shadow assassins working for the government.

20:29
Addy
Oh, that's cool.

20:30
Case
So that there's an even greater reason for them to hate the turtles down the road, even if they don't really realize it. I think that could all be really cool, and you could do a lot with that story. That said, this is already pretty radical, so none of the scenes that are in this movie would happen, but you could do some really cool scenes instead. Like, what if the turtles have to be ninjas and be ninjas going into, like, breaking in to, like, castles and stuff like that, doing ninja stuff, like, which they don't do in this movie, you know?

21:00
Addy
Well, you know, I do, like, one thing that I would like to keep even with this, and I really like you adding the jesuit priest type of thing as being like. So if you need a reason for someone to speak English because you kind of even have someone like, you had a little bit of some interesting moments with Raphael in this movie where he's talking to the kid and he says, you don't fight for no reason. There needs to be a legitimate reason. You can have the priest to be the conscience of the group and create some sort of moral hurdle to why they have to go to war and defend. So it's not just, well, we're here, so we're going to save everybody type of thing.

21:43
Addy
But I do actually really like the whole idea of them being sort of the kappa, the demons.

21:49
Case
I did like that reference.

21:50
Case
I thought it was a, I thought it was like my first mythology book kind of assessment of the whole demon structure. Yeah, but it was, yeah, I like that they had at least a thing to tie it to.

22:00
Addy
I think they could have embraced that a little bit more.

22:02
Case
Yeah, absolutely.

22:03
Addy
So, and that's something I think. I'm really enjoying your pitch right now. Like, I like that a lot. Like, I think I, I like the idea of just, like, I mean, it makes sense to just have a portal that, where, like, maybe they just need to pull more reinforcements from the foot clan at the height of their power to be able to deal with its turtles or something.

22:25
Case
Yeah, I mean, that could be interesting. Or if they wanted to go back and stop that, like, disgrace from happening.

22:30
Addy
Right.

22:30
Case
So there's actually the foot clan that of that time and the foot clan of the modern time in the past trying to prevent it and, like, maybe kill some important figure or something like that. And then the ninja turtles who are trying to be ninja. So it's ninjas versus ninjas.

22:46
Addy
Yes.

22:47
Case
While samurais are fighting. Like, that could be so creep. That could be so cool. The ninja turtles are trying to manipulate the politics that are being manipulated by the modern day foot clan who have traveled back in time, who are trying to manipulate the politics of the retroactive foot clan that is already there and they know is going to have a big disgrace. And then there's all this other, like, political intrigue going on, which, like, sounds like this is a kids movie. We should move on from it. But I think actually, this is kind of cool and not too deep right now.

23:19
Addy
Yeah. Because I think you could still, I think there's still enough surface of that for kids to still embrace because you still have the fun of the turtles using modern references while they're there. Like, that's not, I don't consider that being part of the, like, a really problematic part of the movie. Like, help, I'm a turtle and I can't get up. I definitely chuckled at that today when I was watching it.

23:41
Addy
So, like, I think there's still the tone that the turtles bring can still make a lot of the politics and some of the story that sometimes things that, you know, right now you're looking at it and it's very, it's a little bit more adult, but it still makes it digestible and it's still fun for, you can still make that fun for kids the way having the turtles be the window for them.

24:00
Case
Yeah, because, like, the antics I'm describing are really no more complicated than, like, back to the future two, which I totally watched as a kid. I think people get it. Like, we're talking about some time travel shenanigans, but we're not. But aside from, like, they're going to try to kill this guy, these guys are going to try to stop these guys from failing at killing these guys, and now these four turtles are going to try to stop these guys from trying to assist these other people.

24:21
Addy
Right?

24:22
Case
Yada, yada. Like, that's all. But we're talking back to the future when they're back in the past. And, like, Marty McFarlane is up on stage, but at the same time, like, his hands fading away because time is changing.

24:32
Addy
Well, but I, and I think what would still, what makes it also work is, and again, I, like, I don't want to keep on crapping on the movie, but one of the issues is, like, the lack of clear cut villains and motivations, I think, or there are ancient shredder. Yeah, you need ancient shredder or, like, an early, like, a prototype of shredder. But I, you know, and that was one thing I was, you know, you're kind of hoping the dad or I'm forgetting whatever.

25:02
Case
They even play the shredder's music sometimes with him.

25:04
Case
Did they really?

25:06
Case
When I would hear it, I was like, I recognize that sound. That's the shredder. You're not the shredder. You're not even being, like, they're not even presenting you as, like, proto Shredder. Like, that's making it even worse because.

25:16
Addy
He'S, he's a completely incompetent villain, too. Like, there's a point where he's charging in and threatening to kill them, but he just runs away and he's like, it.

25:24
Case
That's the weirdest part about this movie, which is a franchise about, like, the ninja fad of the eighties being like, look how incompetent japanese people are. Look at, like, his guards, for example, easily get overpowered at the beginning by, like, the drunk white sailors, like, who don't know anything. Like, why is any of that the way it is? Like, I'm not trying to have, like, giant cultural war in my media, but don't present it like, well, white guys here everything's clearly gonna better. Even if they're bad. They're better at being bad.

25:52
Addy
Well, yeah, I mean, like, not even. All of them had guns, but, like, the one guy shoots at the dad and stops him for. I don't even know why he wanted to stop him from, like, killing his son or hurting his son or whatever was the case. It was just everything was kind of all over the place. And I think just clear villains is, I think having. Clearly defining your villain would be important to this. And I think you're right. The Foot clan is. The Foot clan is a big thing missing from this movie. Yeah, there's no, I don't think there's even a single doubt about that because the foot clan, as hokey as those costumes look, they. I mean, they're an absolute fun part of the lore.

26:30
Case
Ninjas are missing from this.

26:32
Addy
Yes.

26:32
Case
Like, that's the weirdest part in this movie about ancient Japan, about ninjas going back in time. There's no actual ninjas.

26:39
Addy
Yeah, you're right. I just thought about that. I was like, I'm trying to think there had to be one or something. But no, it was always the only other villain is you have the dudes with guns that. Yeah, and it doesn't even make sense that they're a legit threat since they're going to need some time to reload every time they miss.

26:57
Case
I know.

26:57
Case
It's so silly.

26:58
Case
It's like, oh, we've got guns now. Guns are going to change the way things happen, right? No, they're not. We're not talking about a period where it really would like, it's really not going to change that dramatically. Things. Until probably about 100 years later, and they're still ninjas.

27:12
Addy
They should be able to dodge a bullet. At least one.

27:15
Case
Yeah. Or not get seen and then kill the guy before they get shot at. I mean, it's Ninja Turtles. We're not talking about actual assassinations, but they should be able to knock a person out. They should be stealthy. We just saw a movie before where they could remove bells from a person without actually making a sound or being seen. Like, what is going on? Why are these guys so incompetent at what they can do? They're not just martial artists. Like, they show a lot of scenes of them being good martial artists in this movie.

27:41
Addy
Yes.

27:41
Case
Not a lot of great fights of them being good martial artists, but at least a lot of scenes of them practicing and doing moves.

27:47
Addy
Yeah, I thought there were some fun moments here and there with the fights.

27:51
Case
Yeah, that's the thing. The choreography is not that bad.

27:53
Addy
That's the other.

27:54
Case
Like, I don't truly hate any Ninja Turtle movie. Like, even this movie I watch and I enjoyed. Well, even the first bae one I watched and I enjoy, even though, like, it's not a good movie either.

28:05
Case
But I may be a little bit.

28:07
Case
Warmer to it right now because the second one I really like, the second bay, or the recent Ninja Turtles movie, I really like.

28:14
Addy
Was it out of the shadows or something? Yeah, out of the shadows.

28:17
Case
Like, surprisingly good.

28:18
Addy
Yeah, I was also surprised on that one. But, yeah, it's funny when we're able to talk about a Michael Bay movie in any positive light. But again, yeah, it's the love for the turtles. And that's the thing. Fun turtle action is, I think, such a key to the movie and some of those familiar elements. The only mutants you have are the turtles. You had Taka and Razar in two. But it feels like, it's funny. I felt like I was watching the last samurai with Ninja turtles with the.

28:58
Case
Same amount of weird white savior issues. Yeah. You know what? The thing that annoys me the most is that the english guy is just like, oh, these superstitious people. Like, she's not a witch. She has no powers. And I'm like, wait, but she'd be witchcraft if he was way more superstitious. Like, if he was, like, a crazy puritan style guy.

29:22
Addy
Right?

29:22
Case
I mean, because, like, this. This person can exist. Like, that's not. There were no english traitors doing what he did. Like, it was a pure conjecture, and it's not how anything actually played. So why not have him be crazy, super christian and be convinced that he's here to make money and dominate japanese culture? Because white culture is so superior and clean the world. Yeah, clean the world. But have be like, when he's like, oh, there's a witch. We have to burn her.

29:47
Case
This is what we do.

29:49
Addy
Yeah, he doesn't really overreact to the Walkman. That's kind of an issue. Like, he should be reacting just as badly as the Japanese do at that moment.

29:57
Case
Or worse.

29:58
Case
Yeah, or worse. Yeah. The movie we got just has so many problems. But I think it could have been cool. I think, you know, like, if this was the 2000 series of turtles, that would really justify a timeline like this because that Shredder lived for, like, through the millennia or at least, like, several hundred years. So he was in ancient Japan. So that would have been a perfect.

30:19
Case
Way to do it.

30:20
Case
Now, that's a different continuity if it was the original cartoon. The Dimension X stuff is a perfect way of doing time travel. More recent stuff has other ways of doing time travel, but this movie just, it felt like such a weird thing. And to introduce magic, which has never happened in the series, unless you count, like, them being able to, like, meditate and, like, sense each other, which is barely magic. Like, it's, I mean, shown more than it really is.

30:44
Addy
I think I, yeah, I don't. I don't know if I necessarily would get away from the mysticism. I think there's an opportunity to introduce the mysticism, but I, that's the cool.

30:56
Case
Thing about the turtles, which is that they embrace some of this mysticism unto themselves while being products of technology. And then their rivals are the foot clan, who are theoretically creatures of mysticism, but they're utilizing technology in lots of weird ways, and they got away from that in the movies. But, like, with them being robots in the original show, it's like, oh, here's the betrayal of everything that we held dear from the past in favor of technology, whereas the turtles are products of technology who still respect and honor everything that came before them. And that's the balance right there between those two. And I think other series have maintained that as well.

31:32
Case
So it would have been nice if they, through super science, came back in time, but actually were the ones who were more in tune with, like, what it meant to be a true ninja. And maybe, maybe it wasn't the disgrace of the Foot clan. Maybe it was actually the guiding light that led them away from being super powerful at one point and being a more, like, honorable group before it was, like, led astray and by Shredder. And, like, Shredder wanted them to be, like, go back to their roots of being, like, conquerors and, like, and true assassins. But for a while, the foot had moved towards a more honorable path.

32:04
Addy
That's a cool, that's a cool wrinkle to it, actually.

32:08
Case
That makes me really great, because then we're talking about ninjas. We're really talking about ninjas versus ninjas. Versus ninjas.

32:12
Addy
Right. Versus ninjas again.

32:16
Case
And there are a few pirates in there just for fun.

32:22
Addy
The other big thing, and I guess, for me, maybe I could really categorize this under one thing, is clearly defining characters across the board, is my big issue with this movie, because it's, you know, I mentioned the villains, but I also think the turtles seem to lose identity in this movie. You know?

32:39
Case
Yeah, I mean, they're kind of riding the established identities up until that point.

32:44
Addy
Yeah, but even that, like, do you. Well, I feel like even in previous movies, there was a little bit more identity to Raphael to, like, Raphael is usually the one that gets.

32:56
Case
No, I agree with you.

32:57
Case
Like, I'm saying that they are relying on the previous movies. Having said that.

33:01
Addy
Right. Rather than expanding it out. Like, I'm surprised Donatello isn't having more.

33:04
Case
Of a problem of beating a couple lines like that. There's a few points, like, they got Corey Feldman back, so they give him some nerdy lines.

33:11
Addy
That's true.

33:12
Case
To have. And Raphael at one point is like, I'm sorry, I can't help it. Be sarcastic. It's my nature. There's some stupid scenes with that.

33:20
Case
It's just very awkward.

33:22
Case
I don't know. I mean, this movie was written and directed by the same guy who had not worked on the previous installment.

33:27
Addy
Right. And it shows.

33:29
Case
Yeah, it shows in a lot of ways. And I really think that just a rewrite on it by someone else would have helped a lot. Like, as it is, it's kind of like if I was just trying to, like, scrape together a movie right before I went into production and the studio hadn't finished working on all the costumes and you knew that, like, you'd only get so many, like, so many uses out of, like, the full suit. So maybe you better put them in, like, ninja or in samurai armor up until that point. Okay, so I do have two other weird ones that aren't really as fully fleshed out or as feasible, but I should mention them just for completeness sake. So I had two thoughts. One was, can you imagine if they really doubled down on, like, a Kurosawa?

34:08
Case
Like, black and white, fully. Everyone's getting translated, and then the turtles are there and they're speaking English and no one understands them, but it's like a hardcore brutal. Like, we're talking Logan brutal.

34:20
Addy
You know what's cool about this? It really does emphasize just how out of place the turtles are.

34:26
Case
Yeah. Like, the violence of that era should be way higher and then the movie than this movie.

34:31
Case
Like, we should, like, we should have.

34:33
Case
Sword fights that actually end with people getting cut up and dying, even if we don't see, like, the body parts fly off, but, like, do, like, the classic samurai. Like, they're faced off and then, like, just blink of an eye and then, like, Leonardo is standing there with the sword up. Like, that serenade would have been badass. You can't make that movie. Like, I'm gonna be upfront and say, you can't make that movie, but that would be crazy. The other one also, you can't make this movie. That would be really fun to do is if they brought in Usagi Yojimbo and if instead of them going back in time, they went across dimensions to the dimension of Usagi Yojimba, where they're all just animals living in feudal Japan, and it was entirely a movie about animatronic samurai living in feudal Japan.

35:13
Addy
Oh, that would be so cool.

35:15
Case
It would be so expensive. Like, we're talking about, like, the entire movie. Like, clearly this movie, they didn't have access to those resources, which is why, like, Splinter, you never see from the waist down because they clearly only had the top half of his puppet. Like, they, like, the turtles are in, like, clothes a lot of the time, so they didn't have to be in, like, full, like, full, like, Jim Henson bodysuits.

35:33
Addy
Right?

35:34
Case
Like, this movie would never be made. Like, I need to be very clear about that. But I think it would be amazing if it was just entirely with, like, April O'Neill and then, like, just muppets everywhere. Like, just a ninja turtle samurai epic with Usagi Ojumbo.

35:50
Addy
Oh, my God. That sounds so cool.

35:51
Case
But again, these two suggestions right here cannot happen. And, like, they would net, they definitely would not have happened then. So I really can't use these as the solid ones. I think the stronger one is going with, like, ninjas versus ninjas.

36:05
Addy
I think for me, though, at the end of the day, the true travesty is that they could not add onto what they had built so strongly in the second movie and follow up ninja rap properly.

36:17
Case
Yeah. You know what it should have been like?

36:22
Addy
They're like, we have to go back.

36:23
Case
In the past instead of Casey Jones. They're like vanilla. Come over here.

36:28
Addy
Yeah. Casey Jones never needed to be in this movie.

36:31
Sam
No.

36:31
Case
They just brought him back for no apparent reason. Oh, God.

36:34
Addy
To babysit the, which I think is.

36:38
Case
I like one scene, which I think, and I don't know why it didn't follow through was when, like, Mikey was like, I'm wearing shorts because they switch clothes. That makes so much more sense. And, like, and then splinters, like, no, we don't have time for them. How do you put shorts on? Like, it wasn't like, a quick thing or, pardon me. It wasn't like, we're right about to time travel like they did, but they had plenty of time to put a pair of shorts on.

37:01
Addy
That was the moment I hit a pause and I grabbed a piece of paper. It's like, I'm gonna need to write a lot more notes that I was expecting for this movie.

37:08
Case
Yeah. And then the other guys all had, like, these weird under armour.

37:11
Addy
Yeah.

37:13
Case
But I didn't need any of that, like, modern day stuff. Like, I thought that whole through line was just silly. Another cultural. And, like, the swapping thing didn't make any sense. Like, if you need them to be in, like, period appropriate clothes, they steal pre appropriate clothes. They're ninjas. They can do it.

37:31
Sam
Yes.

37:31
Case
Like, they need to disguise themselves actively as opposed to accidentally.

37:34
Addy
And it was totally inconsistent with what traveled with them. Like, the clothes are not supposed to travel with them, but apparently April's Walkman makes it.

37:40
Case
Or a sword.

37:41
Addy
Yes, exactly.

37:43
Case
So, again, the mystic side of it just doesn't make sense. Like, if it was super science and you use TGRI, which was set up in the previous one, as making radioactive chemicals that can modify people, like, you could have done so many things with it that would have worked a little bit better than what they did, and, like, oh, God damn it. It's a thrift shop. Like, quote unquote egg timer. What is that?

38:04
Case
You're right.

38:08
Case
But the setting is fine. I like the idea of the ninja Turtles being in ancient Japan because it's showing, like, hey, we normally take this eastern thing and bring it to New York in the sewers, and, like, hey, we're gonna go back there and see how we stack up against actual ninjas and actual samurai. And that would have been a great place to set it and, like, show them having to do ninja e type things and then have to don samurai armor and go into an actual samurai fight and, like, show how good they are and how they stack up against ancient, like, feudal warriors. But instead, we don't really get that, and we don't really, like, establish any real, like, credibility to them. They're just. They're just kappa out of nowhere.

38:48
Addy
Yeah. And scare people here and there. So, yeah, it's. It's a disappointment. It's. It's there pieces here and there that you can mine and enjoy. But I definitely. I'm definitely digging your idea of. Of bringing the foot, like, bringing the foot clan back is. Is really, I think, such an important part to most ninja Turtle story, and especially to one where you go back to Japan. So.

39:18
Case
Yeah, yeah. It's just. It's. Thanks for letting so many wasted opportunities there.

39:23
Addy
Thanks for letting me have this opportunity to release.

39:26
Case
Thank you for sharing. I mean, we're not the first to do this. Like, nostalgia critic did a series of, like, videos where it just ended with him crying in a bathtub because of this movie. And like, angry video game nerd did, too. I know we're not like, treading new ground here. I think we're just trying to find the good in this and how we could have made it better. And I think acknowledging that the setting has some merit is a good place to start and then figure out how you make that make more sense. But yeah, Addie, thank you for joining me on this one. It's always fun to have the parent show.

40:01
Addy
Thanks for having me on.

40:02
Case
Yeah. But so thank you, listeners. Thank you for joining us. Next time we're going to be talking about Highlander two. And until then, stay scruffy, my nerf herders.

40:13
Addy
Thanks for listening to certain point of views. Another past podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com dot.

40:51
Sam
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40:57
Case
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41:01
Sam
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41:04
Case
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41:07
Sam
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41:15
Case
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Sam
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41:25
Case
And we're back. Ninjas versus ninjas. I love that phrase. I realize that it's because I am a child. I mean, I'm a child of the eighties and nineties, but like, also early two thousands. Humor is, like, still my jam. I have if anyone is ever interested in a video game pitch, I have the pitch for what I consider the greatest possible video game of all time, which is ninjas versus pirates versus zombies. And the reason it would be an amazing game is because each one would have their own completely different gameplay, and it would be incredible, especially for multiplayer. Anyway, so I was pretty proud of this pitch, Sam. I guess we have the following things because we didn't talk about the one in the prelude, which is what is your history and opinion of the Ninja Turtles franchise?

42:21
Case
And then we'll talk about your thoughts on the episode and what you pitched. So let's talk about turtles. What's your history with them?

42:29
Sam
Yeah. Oh my gosh. I mean, me and the turtles go way back. I had all the toys. I watched the cartoon and watched all the movies. I'm pretty sure I saw all three movies, like, the original, like, these movies in theater. And I remember, like, just sitting there and being like, especially for this movie, just like, no, it's. It's good. It's good. I'm, like, making a conscious decision that I just enjoyed the film, and that has kind of stayed with me. And there's definitely flaws in this film. There's a lot of odd choices, which definitely even both you and Patti point out. But, you know, at the end of the day, I just liked the turtles doing a little slapstick and being, you know, kind of funny, and you got a kid connecting with Raphael.

43:27
Sam
I always love when a gruff person is actually a marshmallow inside. So, you know, I think that, like, the Ninja Turtles is one of those great ips that, like, you know, just franchises that every time I say something like, I even loved the latest, the animated Ninja Turtle, I was so good. I just think that the turtles are fun. They're fun. They're a nice allegory for not always fitting in. And, you know, they do ninja stuff, which is cool. They give fights. You know, I love martial arts, so, yeah, I love the turtles. Who doesn't? And I know Addie, like, definitely mentioned his pizza addiction. I definitely had that before. I'm a born and raised New Yorker. So, like, that was like, you know, that's just, like, you're kind of born thinking, like, pizza is just, like, the best thing on the planet.

44:27
Sam
But I will say that the turtles, like, affirmed that belief in me. Right? Like, I was just like, yeah, see? Like, hey, look, everybody should know pizza is the best.

44:38
Case
Well, for listeners who really remember the show, if they go back to the episode where we talked about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles two, you're actually an extra in one of the scenes at the opening where everyone's having fucking pizza.

44:48
Sam
Yeah, of course, because I would like. Honestly, I love pizza. I love it now.

44:53
Case
It's funny because I have so many emotions related to the Ninja Turtles. Like, it was very formative for me. It was not my first fandom, but it was one that took hold pretty much as it was live in a way that so, like, for me, big fandoms were Silverhawks, which, like, was a little bit more niche. But, like, man, my parents bought me those toys. He mandev, then Ghostbusters and then Ninja Turtles in sort of that sequence. But Ninja Turtles, the first movie, gripped me wholeheartedly. I saw that for my kindergarten. So I guess I was turning six for that birthday, and I was overwhelmed with how amazing that movie was. But then this movie, when it came out, I remember being the distinct moment where I realized that. That I was no longer a super fan.

45:48
Case
I was no longer like, this is the best thing ever, which had been, like, every fandom I had experienced up until that point. And it had waned enough because things like Power Rangers and other stuff had popped up. But it was the first time where I was like, I can really like a thing and really enjoy it and be excited about a thing live and not have it be like my identity. That was a really interesting moment for me to really process that. Like, oh, yeah, the Ninja Turtles are a thing that will always mean something to me. I'm always going to enjoy taking the plastic eggs that are around during Easter time and using them on two of my fingers and then two of my fingers to pretend that I have three fingers the way that the Ninja Turtles do.

46:35
Case
That was just always going to be a part of me, but it was not necessarily going to be the thing that I was hyper fixated on anymore. And it was the first time I, like, really was, like, and I can still love the things that I used to be hyper fixated on in a way that is, like remembering the joy of the hyper fixation unto itself, which should tell you a lot about me.

46:59
Sam
I feel like that was, like, an important lesson, and I'm glad that Ninja Turtles was there to.

47:03
Case
If my therapist was listening to this, I think that she would be taking furious notes at this point. Yeah.

47:15
Sam
So it all started with the Ninja Turtles.

47:18
Case
And like I said, I think the Ninja Turtles franchise as a whole is always a thing to have fun with. It's so goofy and irreverent to its original source, but allowing for really gritty. And I think the weird part is that the first movie is the best Ninja Turtles movie. It just is. And it's a deconstructionist superhero movie. Like, it's playing up the satirical, as opposed to parodic elements of ninja Turtles. Because they're a riff on Daredevil and the X Men and on teen titans at the time. That's why they're teenage Ninja is the daredevil and mutant is the X Men part.

48:03
Sam
Right.

48:04
Case
So the first movie is this wonderful, grounded deconstruction of superhero fantasy stuff. And, you know, it's very, like, ahead of its time. It was very successful for everything. Like, it's a true testament as far as movies go to, like, what you can do with, like, the weirdest of source material. And by the time you get to this one, it's gotten pretty goofy. It's gotten all over the place, but it's still fine. And then the future movies, you know, I think, see if this one feels right in terms of the hierarchy of Turtles movies. The original Ninja Turtles movie, the most recent one, what was that? Mutant mayhem.

48:45
Sam
Yeah, mutant mayhem.

48:46
Case
Then I would put, I would probably put TMNt out of the shadows, like the second Bay Turtles movie. Then TMNT like the CGI one that had like Patrick Stewart as the, like, not villain character at the end from the aughts, then Turtles two, then Bay Turtles one, and then this. This is firmly the worst for me, but I still enjoy all of them. I still have warm feelings about every one of them. And they get me excited about this franchise because it relates to me so well. And it like, it's so good as a franchise. It's such beautiful gold.

49:33
Sam
It is so good. Well, I think also because you've got the different personalities, you've got a lot of different, you know, it allows you for really fantastical things or stuff that's really grounded in reality. And, yeah, it's an amazing series. I think. I think your account is kind of right. I might put two up higher, but definitely not higher than the second bay. I might switch it with the Patrick Stewart one. I might, I might like just, I don't know, I really enjoyed it.

50:15
Case
And I feel like that's tier ranking levels. I feel like they're both mid tier. And it's just a question of which one's a little bit higher in that. With the caveat, of course. Again, the whole franchise is just generally fun, and I'm happy to watch any of them. Even the worst of them is still. Even the worst of them is better than the worst of the Star Trek movies. And I also argue that the Star Trek movies are, even the worst of the Star Trek movies is better than most movies. So that shows the esteem I put on the Ninja Turtle movies. I'll never be upset about watching it. There's never a night where I have to rewatch Ninja Turtles movies for something. And I'll be like, oh, darn, I could do so many other things this evening.

50:57
Case
It'll still be like, no, it's gonna be fine. This is gonna be fun.

51:01
Sam
Yeah, for sure.

51:04
Case
Which Ninja Turtles did you relate to most?

51:08
Sam
Which. Well, I think, you know, I would like to say, I think I have very fond memories of these first three because they happen during my childhood.

51:20
Case
Right, sorry, I meant Ninja Turtle. Like, which turtle?

51:24
Sam
Oh, witch hurdle. Which turtle? Ooh, that is hard, because I think that there are several personalities living inside of me at all times. But I think I'm somewhere between.

51:36
Case
I should note that I think everyone is somewhere a blend of two to three, maybe even four in some cases. And so the question is sort of just a, like, do you identify the most with someone and then, like, how it sort of go? And then all the caveats that you throw out there is what I'm actually kind of interested in.

51:53
Sam
I think when I was a kid, I probably would have said, like, Leonardo Raphael. Like, that would be, like, my combo, because, like, I did have leadership qualities, and I was very sarcastic and sometimes antagonistic as a child, which I think sometimes raph does get because it's, like, hard for him to express certain things. Kind of liked poking at people, but I. But Michelangelo was definitely my favorite as a kid because he made sure everybody had pizza all of the time. I think now I've, like, chilled out a little more. So I would like to think, you know what? I'm probably just Leonardo now. I'm probably just Leonardo now.

52:47
Case
That's fair. I could also see, like, a hint of Donatello in you.

52:53
Sam
Yeah. Yeah. There is stuff I do love reading and learning and watching documentaries and stuff like that. So I could see that for sure. I just think that, like, I just think that Dante was so smart, and even though I do think. I'm sorry, I just don't think I'm like Dante. Sorry, I.

53:16
Case
It is almost presupposing to take Donatello as your character that you're most like.

53:24
Sam
Right. It's like, if I was like, yeah, I'm moon girl, I'm not. It's just like, I'm not that smart. I love really smart characters. I'm always drawn to them. And I honestly, I love all the turtles, and I. I think the anime series was, you know, most fun when they'd have those one offs where, like, you'd get, like, some background character. Like, you know, it'd be like a story of just this character, Mondo Gecko. But. But, you know. Yeah, no. I think that's also what keeps the franchise, its ability to, like, always kind of refresh itself and kind of, like, keep going is that you've got these, like, four really, like, wonderful characters that you can. That lots of different people can relate to, you know, so you can always find someone within the turtles to relate to.

54:27
Sam
And most famously, people who read comic books well, maybe not as much anymore because comic books are a little more mainstream now, but definitely the feeling of being outsiders or othered was definitely something in the eighties and nineties that I think anyone who had some niche fandoms could relate to.

54:50
Case
Yes. Which I think is, like, very much like the Donatello treat and all that. Yeah. When I was a kid, I was, like, hardcore. I loved Leonardo the most. And in retrospect, I'm like, well, like, that carries over with some of the times where I keep finding myself in management or leadership roles. And at this point in my life, I shirk the responsibility, or at the very least regret the responsibility for almost all of these things.

55:24
Sam
Okay. I think Leonardo does too, most of the time.

55:27
Case
So there's a bit of Leonardo, there's a bit of me being a science nerd, and then there's a bit of me being a goofball. So it's funny. Like, the one turtle that I don't relate to at all is Raphael, like either. Like, in any version of the character, it's just, it's always like, yeah, no, it's like a little bit of Leonardo. Donnie and Mike.

55:48
Sam
Yeah, I can totally see that, though. That makes sense to me because, like, you're just not, you're not really antagonist person. You're not overly sarcastic. You're not, you know, the kind of person that's going to storm out wearing a trench coat. Well, you might. And fedora. That might be the only.

56:11
Case
That's true. Like, there's always those, like, moments of just, like, just wanting to scream at the world. Anywho. Yeah, so. All right, well, I was just kind of curious because I feel like everyone, like, has, like, strong thoughts about which turtle they relate the most to. Cracked did a really good video way back in the early days of the website for the series after hours, which I would say people should still check out because it's a great breakdown and makes the strong comparison of various foursomes. And the ninja turtles are such an iconic version of it all, but they compare it with the golden girls or the Beatles. There's so many foursomes in Mediaev, whereas these are the extremes, and they make the comparison with the four humors. What is it?

56:59
Case
Black bile, yellow bile, blood and phlegm, and how each one of those has different emotional traits that correspond to it. That's just the strength of the turtles franchise, that they are such pure iterations of very common ideas. Along with, and I think circling into the actual movie conversation, the notion of the turtles being like a science accident, but very deeply invested in ancient traditions, I think is a really interesting kind of juxtaposition right there. And I think that resonates with people, especially kids who are trying to come to terms with their parents beliefs.

57:40
Case
I think if you're being exposed to religion, you're probably being exposed to religion as a child and how you relate to that and how you relate to customs and, like, everything is tradition to you, even things that are new traditions, because you don't have a sense of the world before. And I think that helps make the ninja Turtles really relate to people, especially a young audience, and has helped it stay as a vibrant franchise with new iterations to this day.

58:15
Case
It's really cool.

58:17
Case
And this movie is at the. The nadir of one of the waves of ninja Turtles. Like, but, you know, it would be reinvented a few years later, but at this point, like, were at the point where the show was losing steam and this is late in the run of the show, and, like, is, you know, I don't think anyone's gonna argue that this is the strongest or even second strongest of the original three movies. And on that note, let's talk about the pitch and what we actually talk about. We'll knock out the two that I throw out there that Addie's just kind of, like, here for at the end, we'll knock out those two first because I fully say these are impossible pitches. They are ones that would just be fucking funny.

59:05
Case
And so the hardcore bloody black and white series, I think, which is a hilarious.

59:15
Sam
And it would honestly like if it was a fan movie, right? Like, not like, made for families and stuff like that. Amazing.

59:27
Case
Yeah. And again, it was supposed to be just a joke concept, but it would be really funny if it was like a Kurosawa like style. Like, like, they're like. I recently had to watch the lone Wolf and Cubs movies for a discussion about the comparison between that series and road to perdition over on our friends on Jaguar sharks. Anyway, so I recently had to watch the lone Wolf and Cubs movies, and it was so fucking violent in a way that I found, like, really, like, just lush and beautiful in its own, like, artistic way. And imagine that with a ninja Turtles movie and then fighting for a pg rating.

01:00:07
Case
And so we're talking about lots of ninjas rushing past each other, and Leonardo is the one left standing and he's holding a sword in the air, and the person that he rushed past falls down dead. Lots of moments like that. But I think you could do it? I think you could make this a samurai jack level of brutality in a ninja movie set and fuel Japan. I think that it would be really, it'd be really funny if it was only the scenes when they were in the past that had the, like, black and white or, like, whatever filter you want to put on, like, with the film grain and just, like, lean into it being like, oh, we've been transported not just to samurai times but to, like, samurai movie times.

01:00:57
Sam
I mean, everything's possible, you know, when you have an egg timer.

01:01:01
Case
Jesus Christ. That goddamn trivance. Anyway, and so the other one was making this, like, a backdoor usagi yojimbo movie, which I actually think would be pretty dope, like, for a whole bunch of reasons. Like, one, it would be just, like, fun to see lots of animals in, like, samurai gear and whatnot. Because Usagi Yojimbo is amazing. I think that's, like, burying the lead there, which is that usagi Ojimba is just amazing. And having the ninja turtles be in Usagi Yojimbo setting is actually one that we don't see as often. We see Usagi cameo and ninja turtle stuff a lot, but his whole series is just feudal Japan. They just happen to be animals.

01:01:45
Sam
Right?

01:01:46
Case
And it would be so fun to have the turtles in that setting. And then again, it's like, when we're not doing time travel, we're doing a parallel dimension. It just happens to be anthropomorphic animal feudal Japan. Parallel dimension.

01:02:03
Sam
Yeah. Might even be harder for them to leave because they can fit in a lot better there.

01:02:09
Case
Again, it'd be a really cool idea and not outside of the realm of possibility in all regards, but certainly outside the realm of possibility for this movie where they were clearly fighting the budget like crazy and, like, you know, they weren't gonna make that movie at this time. I could imagine it being made at some point, just not when this movie was made. And, man, would that be cool. I just. I mean, now it's. Now it'd be a CGI, but, like.

01:02:39
Sam
Yeah, but just putting it out there, it can still be made actually, like.

01:02:42
Case
Mutant Mayhem is a good foundational series. You could make that CGI series, like, make a sequel that is set in, like, usagi Yojimbo world.

01:02:53
Sam
For sure.

01:02:54
Case
Or maybe I should say Miyamoto Usagi. For anyone who's gonna be, like, mad that I am just saying usagi yojumbo. Yeah, I know yujumbo means bodyguard.

01:03:07
Case
I know that's his job.

01:03:11
Case
Anyway, so let's look at the actual pitch, which was, again, ninjas versus ninjas. Because the thing that I found so frustrating about this movie is that the foot clan is not in the ancient Japan setting.

01:03:27
Sam
Yeah. And it's weird, too, because in, like, in the movie, there is, like, this movie has a lot of issues with, like, just the through line making sense. I'm not even talking about, like, continuity. Like, it's not even like this guy was holding something on his left hand. No, it's. No, I'm talking about, like, the through line of the actual story. There's just things that are just kind of thrown in there that don't really tie into anything else. And the weird thing is that the. The leader that I don't know if he was. I mean, technically, he was a shogun, right? The shogun, the father of the prince who ran away. Sorry, excuse me. He basically relates that his forefathers were defeated by these monsters. When you look at the pictures, it looks like the Ninja Turtles. Right?

01:04:31
Sam
But the Ninja Turtles haven't been there yet, number one. So it's not theme. So then you're like, well, do they have ancient ancestors that once also not oozed but were standing upright? Like, you know what I mean? Like, like, there's, like, this whole, like, this is why he's afraid of them, because there were monsters that look just like them. But it, like, would have just been so much easier to make, to actually tell the story of the turtles coming in to defeat him as his ancestor rather than, you know, I make it a foot clan. I mean, like, this movie does give us the epic. Like, father, I, you know, I can't stand by your unjust war, which is great, but even so, it's just like, a really, it's really weird and snipped in ways where you're like, wait, does that actually fit in?

01:05:33
Sam
And so to me, it makes a lot more sense when I'm listening to your pitch about having this just be the foot. Like, let's just have shredder. Like, why not? You've already done it for two movies. Let's do it for the third.

01:05:47
Case
I mean, at the very least, have proto Shredder, like, have an earlier shredder in the timeline, but have the mantle be passed down, or however you would do it if you want to say he is finally dead. Cool. Have the modern foot be a tie in thing. And this is how we get the ninjas versus ninjas part, because, again, I find it the other big thing. Yes. The lack of the foot clan in the fetal Japan movie is weird, but the other big thing is the introduction of magic in a world that has been mostly science fiction at this point. It's weird science fiction, but it's been just the ooze. And so, like, I, you know, I throw out there, like, have it be, like, a foot plot, and they're using super science to travel back in time.

01:06:34
Case
And I think that remains a really good suggestion because, like, it's. Because it's too much when it's just like, oh, at the thrift store, I found a magic item that I. That will send you back in time and trade places with. With people. Like, what? What?

01:06:56
Sam
For sure. And I think, like, also one of the things that, like, I was thinking when I was listening to your pitch was, like, you really could have started off with it being, like, a member of the foot because Shredder is gone. Like, basically being like, well, if we take them back in time to Shredder's predecessor, like, you know, the first. Right. Because Mickey or the dread pirates Roberts, just a new, you know, shredder takes over and bleeds the foot. But, you know, we're right.

01:07:34
Case
Well, that's not that insane. Like, it feels like a normal kind of concept for a foot clan, like, of ninjas. Like, right.

01:07:43
Sam
And so basically have them go in to kind of basically use this science to transport the turtles back into what is a trap for them. And you can still have the villagers help and help them get out of the trap. You can still do some of the stuff and kind of, you know, get them out. I do just, like, side note, like, I think just, I thought it was weird when I was a kid, but I definitely still think it's weird now. But I do always think it's weird when the turtles hit on April, and especially in this movie, they said the word swing at one point when she, like, made her pants into shorts, which guys is the nineties? Like, you know, that was said a lot. And then. And then the fact that Michelangelo, like, his crush is seemingly more adult.

01:08:43
Sam
Like, she's. She could be a teenager, but she seems like she's an adult, and he's supposed to be a teenager. So that just always, like, kind of, like, I always get a little weird with the, you know, that stuff. But. But, yeah, no, but I really do think that if you, like, you can still have the villagers that are fighting against the foot, that are, like, repressed by the foot, who help the turtles, who, in turn, help them and then figure out their way back to the future. I think that would have been a more concise film. And you don't even really need to have the bad guy be called Shredder. He could just be, like, the ultimate shogun of that era. That is what all the shredders emulate themselves. If you don't want to use the word shredder, like, you don't have to.

01:09:38
Sam
But it could be like, we're going back to the guy who started the foot clan and we will have our revenge on the turtles because that was one bad mother trucker. And then just go back in time. That makes so much more sense to me. And, like, because it's weird. You've got, like, the white, you know, gun salesman, the war profiteer, kind of, like, kind of trying to pull at the shogun and sell him his wares and, like, but he also wants the mystic item. Like, it's, this movie's all over the place with all the different things. I mean, probably the things that I enjoy the most is the honor guard off in the real world, learning about hockey and going to a bar. Casey Jones. That's, I probably do enjoy that, but I can live without it. I can.

01:10:33
Sam
But I understand wanting to add a little comic relief. Although I think they just put Casey back in because people were so mad he wasn't in this.

01:10:42
Case
Yeah. I mean, I say it's for no fucking reason. It's that. It's clearly that people just kind of miss him as a character. Yeah. But I didn't mean to be quite so dismissive because, like, I sure, like, he's great. He was great in the first movie. I just don't think he does a lot in this movie was the point I was making in the episode.

01:11:03
Sam
Oh, no, it's true. I mean, they bring him back and he doesn't even get to smash heads. They use him as a comedic tool. And I think it's, you know, there was, you know, some people thought that he was a little too violent in the first movie, and so he wasn't there. And then there was a fan outcry because he wasn't in the second movie, and so people were annoyed that he wasn't in the second movie. And so I think they put him back into this movie to kind of try to appease those people, but they keep him out of fighting to appease the other people. And I don't think that movies where you're trying to please all of the people ever quite work out well, so.

01:11:55
Case
Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, I feel like that covers, like, the big details of the actual pitch. But what in. So I guess, what would you do that was? Did you have anything that was different than what we talked about in the actual episode?

01:12:13
Sam
I mean, honestly, I really, honestly was kind of really living in the same space as, like, first of all, I would have liked to see more ninjas, but. But I I was kind of living in the same space of, why can't it be the foot? It didn't make sense to me that you've got a whole ancient japanese ninja, you know, organization that has been around for, you know, decades and centuries, and they wouldn't run into them. Right. Like, and so there's not really a lot different in my pitch, you know, other than, like, have it be the foot, like. Like, have. Have this be, like, an actual continuation of the villain storyline that you've already built. Right. Or go ahead and introduce a new villain because it's not like they're without villains, you know?

01:13:24
Sam
And if you want to do something a little more temporal, you can. I mean, like, I didn't really mind that they were going to the past. I didn't really mind that there introducing a little more mysticism because there's still things that are kind of unexplained in, you know, that we take for granted within the ninja turtle world. They're like, yeah, but I.

01:13:50
Case
Okay, so I just. To say the mysticism level, I think that this movie not only, like, ramps it up, but does so, like, so casually where it's, like, kind of weird. Like, if it was, like, more tied. I mean, even if it was just tied to, like, ninja magic, like, whatever you want to call that. Like, that would feel more appropriate than just the sort of, like, we found a random magic artifact kind of thing.

01:14:17
Sam
I actually think it would have been much if we are not making a lot of changes and we are, like, sticking with our artifacts, right. And somehow it gets to New York. I would have rather it been in a museum of some sort, like, and the guy snuck in at night to go see it because they had heard, like, stories about it from, like, splinters master only because, like, this is something that was treasured. And listen, I know that time goes on, and some things that were treasured by some societies fall apart, things like that. But I just feel like finding it in a, you know, just. Just some sort of antique shop or, you know, it wasn't even antique shop. Like, what am I saying?

01:15:13
Sam
You know, just, like, going down to the Salvation army and finding this thing and then calling an egg timer when it clearly looks like a lantern, like, why wouldn't that be what you would say? Like, oh, it's like a lantern of some sort. You know, I was thinking that maybe we could, like, figure out how to, like, prop it up somewhere and maybe get the light working again. I thought Donatello could.

01:15:34
Case
Masters of the universe, when they have, like, the wormhole like, device, and they're like, it's some sort of japanese thing, and, like, it's just one of. One of those. Just like, oh, well, we're just gonna make it weird. A weird out, like, you know, out of left field kind of, like, assertion of what it is in a way that, like, real people just don't say.

01:16:03
Sam
Yeah, I thought it, like, I thought it would better. First of all, can I just say, like, just a little bit of a criticism? But April O'Neill is terrible at buying gifts. I don't know why she would have bought that as a little lamp for Michelangelo. I know it has, like, a hula girl on it, and I know he's supposed to be, like, fun, cowabunga, dude, but, like, no, that is not a gift for him. You are bad at gifts, April. Please stop going to the thrift shop and buying gifts. Terrible at it. And I think that it would have made more sense, okay. To, like, have been like, I think it's a lantern. Like, Donatello, do you think you can fix it? I thought it would look really nice in my apartment.

01:16:50
Sam
Like, that would have made more sense to me than what happened, because she literally bought something that she thought was a japanese artifact because she thought so to bring to splinter because he's got ties to Japan. Like, April, you're a terrible. That's, like, right? Like, it's. You know, you don't do that. You don't, like, be like, oh, my God. Like, you're of this. You're of this descent. You must love this thing. That's. That's not how we gift, April. That's not how we gift. I think, like, in general, like, it's just. It's. It's a messy. It's kind of like a messy beginning.

01:17:39
Sam
I also think that your assertion that it should just start in the modern world made a lot more sense to me, because although I really like the opening in terms of, like, the images and the imagery that it brings and those imageries really did, like, kind of burn into my memory, because when I think of this movie, I think of those horses riding across and that color change and all that stuff. But I do think that it is oddly disconnected from the rest of the movie. It doesn't inform us completely. We know that someone's running from some, but it's just not. It's too abstract. And I think you're right in your pitch when you said it should just start in the modern world and, you know, and, yeah, I think that it should be. Listen, it can still be the lantern.

01:18:43
Sam
It can still be the lantern. I just think that instead, April should want it as home decor, but she couldn't figure out how to get working. But she thought Donatello would be perfect at doing it. And then as he's, you know, kind of fussing around with it and trying to make it work, that's when it lights up and the first change is made. And maybe it's not April that goes through, but it's Donatello, and then everyone can go join that.

01:19:11
Case
Yeah, I like that at least as being, like, the smallest amount of change and still keeping it this, you know, fundamentally the same, but, like, massively resolving one of, like, the weird, like, issues of it where it just, like, spontaneously occurs, where it's just like, oh, someone else must have been holding it at some point in the past.

01:19:32
Sam
Right? So, like, you know, like, so then he's like, you know, kind of fussing with it and, like, maybe instead, you know, we can still have, like, the unjust war, that kind of thing, but instead we have the. The, you know, Donatello and the prince change at exactly that moment. Maybe he's stealing it for the villagers. Like, maybe, like, that's what's actually happening. Like, he's. It's his act of rebellion against his father, and then he comes through and he's like, oh, no, I'm what? Where am I? Because, like, the other thing is, when he comes through, he's totally fine, wearing his leather jacket and his t shirt and James, like, he's not shocked at all.

01:20:17
Sam
I think that's the other thing that you and Adi also point out in this episode is that people do not react nearly quite as enough to the weird things. Like, you know, April has her walkman, and yes, they do accuse her of being a witch, but she very bravely, I think it's stupidly, is like, I'll turn you into a newt, or whatever. She's like, says, I'm sorry. Newt is automatic because of Monty Python. I apologize. But I feel like she's. It's just such a weird story arc. And so I feel like if you do that and you have him come through and he's explaining. And then the other guys, you know, follow suit, and April can follow them like, she could.

01:21:08
Sam
They can tell her, April, stay here, and she can be her usual April self and not listening and put her hand on and go anyway, because that's what she does best. She doesn't listen to people. And that's, like, the smallest change. Yeah.

01:21:21
Case
Yeah. No, that certainly works really well to be, like, a quick, tight at least, like, fix. Like, a gaping, just, like, weirdness of the movie. Like, it doesn't ruin the basic concepts, but it does make it, like, feel, like, so MacGuffiny. But I will say if you leaned into it being MacGuffiny and this is not the movie that they would make, but, like, if you made it, like, a time travel thing where every time someone put their hands on, like, two specific spots or something like that, however they put their hands, they swap places with a different time. Someone put their hands on those two specific spots.

01:21:56
Case
Could be a really funny, like, time travel shenanigans kind of movie of people, like, swapping places with different points in time and whatnot, including, like, a third act reveal that they've already encountered the bot, like, the final boss. Like, you know, the father character or whatever, or the english, like, weapon merchant, whichever one you want to call the main boss. Like, you could reveal that they actually already knocked him out because he swapped places with, like, one of them at a different time. And, like, that could be how they, like, defeat him, by getting him to, like, grab the time displacer thing and thus teleporting to a time where they had it in their possession and he was surrounded.

01:22:41
Case
Would be hilarious as a reveal for why a character was missing for a ten minute scene in the movie or something like that, but that, again, wouldn't be the movie that they'd make here, because this is a lazy movie. And they weren't trying to be an innovative time travel, time displacement comedy.

01:23:01
Sam
No, no. They were. They were just trying to get some one liners off and make some money off the turtles and make more merchandising, because now you're gonna need to sell turtles in samurai costume, which I don't.

01:23:20
Case
Mind as a base idea, I think is totally fine.

01:23:22
Sam
Like, I don't either.

01:23:25
Case
You do see, like, the reasons why they. They would do it to, like, limit the amount of time they had to have the actors in the suits, or at least the full suits. It's weird that there's never a comment that they are ninjas pretending to be samurai, but the basic idea of them donning the armor of samurai and going into battle as samurai.