Another Pass at Another Pass at Thor the Dark World
Let’s look back at the time Geoff Moonen joined Case to talk about Thor The Dark World!
SUBSCRIBE: Apple Podcasts • Google Podcasts • Spotify • iHeartRADIO • Stitcher • RSS
Overview:
● In the Podcast Recording and Discussion meeting titled "12 - APAP - THOR THE DARK WORLD," participants delve into a critical analysis of the film, regarded as one of the weakest entries in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. The episode features Geoff as a guest and spans about 50 minutes, addressing key points such as the movie's dependence on others within the franchise, the critical role of the mid-credit sequence highlighting the Infinity Stones, and suggestions for improving character arcs, particularly for Jane Foster and Malekith. The discussion emphasizes the portrayal of female characters, the film's world-building, and its tonal inconsistencies compared to other Thor chapters. Reflection on the episode's structure, character interactions, and potential for future episodes wraps up the meeting, with action items encouraging listeners to engage with additional content and stay tuned for upcoming topics, including "Zoolander 2."
Notes:
● ##### 🎬 Podcast Introduction and Overview (00:01 - 08:41). Discussing Thor: The Dark World in Marvel Phase Two. Audio quality is good, featuring Geoff as a guest. Episode starts immediately with criticism of the movie. Clocks in at about 50 minutes
● ##### 🔍 Analysis of Thor: The Dark World (08:42 - 18:01). Considered the weakest Marvel Cinematic Universe movie at the time. Relies heavily on other movies in the franchise. Mid-credit sequence about Infinity Stones deemed most important part. Comparison to other Phase One and Two movies
● ##### 🌟 Suggestions for Improvement (18:01 - 30:10). Proposal to focus more on Asgard and its technology. Idea to incorporate more of Walt Simonson's comic run. Suggestion to make Malekith a more compelling villain with justifiable vengeance. Pitch to bring human characters to Asgard for fish-out-of-water scenarios
● ##### 🎭 Character and Plot Discussions (30:11 - 38:51). Criticism of Jane Foster's character development and romantic subplot. Suggestion to involve Selvig more in the plot. Proposal to use Darcy's character more effectively. Discussion on improving the final battle with Malekith
● ##### 👥 Female Character Representation (38:51 - 47:37). Criticism of how female characters are portrayed in the movie. Discussion on the lack of meaningful interactions between female characters. Suggestion to give Jane Foster more agency and scientific focus. Proposal to improve Sif's character and her relationship with Jane
● ##### 🌍 World-building and Tone (47:37 - 55:11). Suggestion to lean more into the epic, godly nature of Thor's world. Criticism of the movie's attempt to be like Lord of the Rings. Proposal to show more of the Nine Realms. Discussion on balancing humor and epic scale in Thor movies
● ##### 🎥 Reflections on the Movie and Franchise (55:11 - 01:07:10). Comparison to later Thor movies and their tonal shifts. Discussion on the movie's place in the larger MCU. Reflection on the chemistry between Chris Hemsworth and Tom Hiddleston. Analysis of the movie's visual style and color palette
● ##### 🔄 Revisiting the Episode and Pitches (01:07:10 - 01:16:32). Reflection on the podcast episode's structure and energy. Discussion on the collaborative nature of the pitches. Appreciation for the ideas presented to improve the movie. Reflection on how later MCU entries have affected perception of this movie
● ##### 📊 Bechdel Test and Character Interactions (01:16:33 - 01:29:03). Analysis of the movie's treatment of female characters. Discussion on whether the movie passes the Bechdel test. Criticism of the limited interactions between female characters. Reflection on missed opportunities for character development
● ##### 🎙️ Podcast Housekeeping and Future Episodes (01:29:03 - 01:36:58). Announcement of upcoming episodes, including one on A Dirty Shame. Discussion of future 'Another Pass' episodes, including Zoolander 2. Information on where to find the hosts and the podcast online. Closing remarks and transition to next episode
Transcription
00:01
Case
The episode goes here. Case.
00:03
Sam
Yeah, right here, Case. You know, while you're feeling sleepy, it's here. You're welcome.
00:13
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another pass. At another pass, I'm case Aiken, and as always, I am joined by my co host, Sam Alisea.
00:23
Sam
Hi, Sam.
00:25
Case
What do you think about Marvel phase two?
00:28
Sam
It was a phase. I enjoyed it.
00:30
Case
Yeah, I would say, overall, it ended up being a pretty strong phase, but I think it started off a little bit on the soft side of relative quality, at least up until that point. You know, I like Iron man three, and then I like the movie that we're talking about today, because today we're talking about the dark world. I like it well enough, but they're definitely weaker ones in the early era of Marvel movies. And I am intrigued that I couldn't help but sort of start the conversation pretty much the same way that today's episode is gonna be. For those of you just tuning in, another pass. And another pass is where we navel gaze at the early episodes of the show before Sam joined the cast and got a chance to give her opinions about some of these movies.
01:13
Case
So this is a chance for us to release some old episodes in formats that might be a little bit improved and certainly will be available, which older episodes are not necessarily available on old podcast players. So that's what we're doing here, and we're talking about the dark world. And. Yeah, Sam, before we get into the episode, is there anything that people should.
01:34
Sam
Really know going in about the episode itself? Sound quality is good. And we have Jeff. Jeff on, and we love Jeff. You know, if people have been listening to a lot app, you know, versions, they're gonna. They're gonna know Jeff by now, right? And he's great. His insight's great. I actually think that both of you come up with a much better plans for how this movie could have been enjoyable for me. So I can't wait for people to hear it. And then. Yeah, then we'll talk about it.
02:05
Case
Yeah. I will say before, just so people are aware, we come out swinging, like, this episode starts, and then we are immediately into, like, criticism of the movie. There's, like, no, like, hey, Jeff, who are you? Like, blah, blah, blah. There's no patter beforehand. It is just immediately, like, all right, to the face.
02:23
Sam
Yeah, it's definitely a case. And Jeff were having a conversation kind of episode. Like, it was just, like, there. And to be fair to both of you, there is a lot to swing at in this movie. So, yeah, yeah.
02:41
Case
It's certainly a thing. When Jeff and I are on episodes together, usually there is about 25 minutes that we cut off before we actually get into the episode. So that is probably what was happening there, too, which is that we had been talking for a while, and then I was like, oh, wait, we should actually do the show. But, yeah, so, like you said, audio quality is pretty good. Jeff always has great audio quality. Mine is fine. I can hear a little bit of like a. Some kind of like a hum in the background when my audio is going, and when he's talking, it goes away. So it's definitely like my mic is picking up some sort of, like, room tone. But that. That's about it for, like, technical issues. It doesn't sound particularly bad. And it's a. It's a pretty tight episode.
03:23
Case
I think it clocks in at about 50 minutes. So not. Not a terribly long episode. A little bit longer than some of the ones that we've got in this early slate, but. But certainly not in the. In the bad end of that. Not getting into some of our marathon ones that we've done. Just you wait. Just you wait.
03:41
Sam
I cannot wait.
03:44
Case
But yeah. So why don't we just get into the episode and let people hear what we're talking about?
03:52
Geoff
Welcome to certain point of View's another pass podcast. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and review on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com dot.
04:06
Case
Thanks, folks, for tuning in to another pass podcast. I'm case Aiken and wonder of wonders. I happen to be joined by Geoff Moonen.
04:13
Geoff
Hello again, everyone.
04:15
Case
Geoff, I am so happy to be talking to you today. We are discussing the dark world. It's about a week out from ragnarok coming out, and I wanted to sit down and kind of go over this movie, since it's a weird one.
04:30
Geoff
It is. It's not necessarily a bad movie, but it's certainly the weak one.
04:41
Case
Yeah, I would argue that this is the weakest Marvel movie we've had so far. And by that, I mean, like, the Marvel Cinematic Universe movies. Not outside things like X Men's and other Marvel properties, but one Marvel Fantastic Four. No. God, no. Someday I'll do it.
05:02
Geoff
Oh, jeez.
05:03
Case
I've got ideas, but this is an interesting one. I would say that this is sort of proof that the Marvel movies have generally been good movies, because I would definitely say this is the worst of the Marvel cinematic movies we've seen so far. There's some other ones, but I think this is the one that has the least going for it to redeem itself. Iron man two and three both have some complaints, as does the Incredible Hulk, but I think those movies have some redeeming quality that people can kind of get behind. The Incredible Hulk was the same summer as Iron man one. They were like, all right, we got to do these movies to get the series running, and there was a lot of creative control issues between it because no one knew what a Marvel movie was like.
05:52
Case
But overall, I think it was an enjoyable movie with cool sequences, and it.
05:57
Geoff
Stands on its own.
05:59
Case
It does. It also sets up the later stuff, like, if you look at it as a prequel to Captain America, not in timeline, but in terms of the chronology of movies or even as a sequel, it's interesting to see this thing where this is the military super science in the more crazy era versus the Captain America. It's more just really good steroids.
06:21
Geoff
Right. And again, it, as its own movie, stands in terms of good science, bad science, raw. But when put up against Captain America, it becomes so much deeper, and that works. That's fine. I feel the dark world is the one Marvel movie most relying on all the others. It feels less like its own movie and more like a connecting piece.
06:44
Case
Yeah, it doesn't make sense without anything that came before it or really anything that came after it. There's too many of the stakes. Rely on the implications of what are to come.
06:55
Geoff
Yeah. This was basically a setup of probably the most important thing that happened in this movie was the mid credit sequence about the Infinity Stones.
07:03
Case
Oh, yeah.
07:04
Case
And that wasn't even directed by Alan Taylor.
07:06
Geoff
Yeah. So if your most important feature is a bonus feature, something isn't working.
07:14
Case
Yeah. Like Thor, one had a lot of interesting stuff going for it, and I think it's really important to the Marvel universe. I think that's the other one that outside of the three I mentioned before, where it's really out there and strange, and it sets up the cosmic world for the first time. And, you know, it probably could have been a stronger overall package, but I think the tale they told of Thor, like, this redemption arc of an arrogant asshole, worked pretty well. I think the performances they got were great. The appearances were great. The vibe we got from everyone was great. We're like, oh, this is Thor. This is what the truly superpowered beings look like in a world that has come to become kind of blase by, like, Iron man existing, you know, in my head.
08:00
Geoff
Phase one, I call Faze Coulson. And so, you know, this is the thing that raised the stakes for Coulson. Cause he was the one keeping all this under wraps, and all of a sudden, what, you're a God? I can argue. And then phase two, so.
08:16
Case
Right?
08:17
Case
Yeah, yeah. It's so weird looking back at phase one, which I think is such a. Such a masterpiece of an achievement. No individual part is perfect. Iron man one is a great movie, but has severe issues in terms of keeping the stakes raised without it feeling cliched. Incredible Hulk, as we just discussed, has some weaknesses. Iron man two feels like it's the mid step. They're not quite ready to finish up the first phase, so they're like, all right, we got to buy some time to set up Thor and Captain America.
08:53
Geoff
It was an interesting way to develop Tony's character further.
08:57
Case
Thor is weirdly a, I would argue, this huge opera as a superhero movie.
09:04
Geoff
Yeah, it is. Why do you think they got Kenneth Branagh?
09:07
Case
Oh, yeah. And then Captain America is a movie that I think makes all the other ones better by its existence in that it, like, it fills in all the dots, all the pieces all of a sudden come together, and then you get to Avengers, and Avengers is legitimately just a great movie that you're like, oh, wow, I can't believe you took all these disparate things, and now you've got a cohesive story that, honestly, you can watch that movie and you don't need to watch anything else but this movie. It's enriched so much by everything else that it works so well.
09:38
Geoff
And that is the joy of being a fan of the Marvel Cinematic universe, seeing things as individual pieces and seeing how they also all boost and bolster each other, where they resonate and become bolder, where they support and become stronger.
09:54
Case
Yeah, but phase two is not the elegant machine that phase one is. Phase two, sure. Iron Man Three is a direct follow up to the Avengers in terms of how Tony Stark is dealing with it. And the Winter Soldier is very clearly a sequel where we take the stuff that had been set up in the world that we've established, and that, arguably, is where the Avengers are actually formed, not in the movie itself, but, like, in the wake of it, because by the time you get to Age of Ultron, the Avengers are a team. But at the end of the first Avengers, they are not, and nor are they in any of the movies leading up to it. They say, oh, Captain America got the band together, and that was the true forming of the Avengers.
10:36
Case
Like, they were brought together before for an event, but this is actually them becoming a true team, or they've become what beforehand, and that story is not that interesting? Like, we. You know, Captain America goes and finds everyone, and it's like, all right, guys, we're gonna go take down Hydra. And those stories would not have been character driven stories, so I'm fine with skipping that. Yeah, but you could argue that, Thor, the dark world doesn't really do much for phase two. And really, it may not even pay off until the end of phase three. Right.
11:06
Case
And by that point, we're gonna have.
11:07
Case
Another Thor movie before it. We get to the actual payoff, because Thor of the dark world did not really up the ante for Thor in Avengers Age of Ultron.
11:18
Geoff
No, it certainly did not.
11:20
Case
I mean, even guardians of the Galaxy, which is as unconnected as you could possibly get, sets out some of the rules of the things that come into play later. Thor, it's the mid credit sequence. It's a little bit of, like, just sort of, like exposition that gets dropped here and there that, like, sort of start to change the stakes, but it doesn't really matter.
11:43
Geoff
I agree. It's. Well, because the big thing of phase two is about the fallout and the continuation. You know, it's all well and good to come together to fight this huge alien invasion that came to New York. Bully on, boys. You beat them back, and, you know, look at you being a hero, Tony Stark, but you nearly died in the vacuum of space. And in lieu of you fighting alcoholism, let's give you PTSD. That makes sense. Captain America, you've now woken up in a strange new world. You're adapting beautifully. You've led a team in amazing adventure, and now you're working for the government, doing these things. But you were Captain America during a war, during the great grand whatever, and now that wears on, and can you ever go home?
12:32
Geoff
And those are things that are asked of him in Age of Ultron, and that's his continuation. They don't really do any of that with Thor in the dark world.
12:40
Case
No.
12:41
Geoff
And I certainly have a thesis and an idea for what it could have been, but they didn't do it.
12:48
Case
Yeah. All right, so enough about just the gushing about Marvel in general and the weaknesses of this movie. Let's start.
12:55
Geoff
We could do that forever.
12:56
Case
Yeah, we could. I mean, you and I have done this. We almost tried to do a podcast series just talking about how much we loved the different ones while getting really drunk. So we can definitely do that for a long time. So we can make.
13:07
Geoff
That'll be next year's spinoff.
13:10
Case
Just keep it the same.
13:14
Geoff
Oh, God.
13:15
Case
Exactly. This podcast, more or less, but anyway, so let's talk about what kind of works, what kind of didn't like the things that we could kind of tweak. Because when we're talking about this movie, the rules of the discussions here have to be what could conceivably have been done at the time to make it better. And we're very much locked into casting. We know a lot of information about who else was up for it. But for the most part, with the exception of the villain Malekith, no one's really new. You know, like, they switch out who plays fandral, but that doesn't really matter. And, you know, it's already an actor who was up for the part in the first place and just couldn't do it then. Yeah.
13:59
Case
You know, there's only so many things you could change, and you can't just say, like, well, you know, four years later, Patty Jenkins makes an amazing, awesome, mythology inspired superhero movie. So really, she should have been it, and I don't actually know if she should have for this movie. I've looked at the info from what they've said she was doing, and I don't know if that's a quite right either. I think there was just a lot of people who had a lot of thoughts about Thor, and none of them were very strong.
14:26
Geoff
Yes. Now, this is very much even more than any other Marvel movie. It feels like a movie by committee.
14:32
Case
Yes.
14:36
Geoff
And it leads to a lot of these things are exciting because we know they're supposed to be exciting, not because we feel excited. You know, there are certain space opera elements that go on. And don't get me wrong, watching a Starfighter battle happen in a Marvel movie definitely tickled my Star wars fanboy just a little bit.
14:56
Case
You know what? Let's talk about that, because that, I think, is a note that I had to discuss, and I don't have a great time to bring it up, which is the decision to really hammer home the technology and magic fusion concept of Asgardhead. That wasn't really in the first movie. Like, thesis is presented in the first movie, but it really does look like magic, whereas in this movie, it looks more like guns, it looks more like ships. It looks more like holograms. It looks more like Star Trek. Yeah, or Star wars, really, except with the trappings of viking culture. And at the time, that sounded great. As I get further away from it, there's a few spots that feel a little weird, but I can't really fault the logic.
15:40
Geoff
Yeah. It's like watching Yoda with a lightsaber.
15:44
Case
Yeah, it sounds cool.
15:45
Geoff
When you first hear about it sounds so cool. And then, like, if you feel like it's gonna be the best feeling in the world, it's gonna be a raging bonfire. But it turns out you just pissed the bed, and it's warm for a moment, and now you're cold and wet and you don't know why.
16:00
Case
Yeah. Like, I don't think it's terrible. Like, I think the movie looks good overall.
16:03
Geoff
Yes.
16:04
Case
It's darker in tone, and this was an across the board thing of phase two. Like, phase one is very bright and flat. Like, there's an argument that, like, the cg heavy nature of Avengers three, pardon me, of Avengers one forced them to have, like, this. This, like, very soft color scheme that allowed it to hide the cg. And really, with Iron man two, you start seeing much more, like an amber tone to things. There are a lot of oranges and, like, sunset lighting kind of effects.
16:34
Geoff
Yeah, very much so.
16:35
Case
And this movie has a ton of that. It's very orange in a way that you wouldn't really expect. Like, orange and gold.
16:41
Geoff
It's practically the look of Asgard.
16:43
Case
Yes. And then Captain Winter Soldier has a lot of night stuff going on, and when it doesn't, it's a lot of grays and blacks and a little more desaturated.
16:54
Geoff
Yeah. Little darker.
16:55
Case
And then if you look at Avengers two compared to Avengers one, Avengers two has this yellow orange color scheme that Avengers one definitely feels blue.
17:06
Geoff
Yes, it does.
17:07
Case
And it is jarring. If you just look at those two movies side by side, it's a very shocking change in color tone.
17:15
Geoff
Yeah.
17:17
Case
So this movie has a lot of that kind of gold sort of look to it, but I'm cool with a lot of it. They do a lot of cool effects to emphasize the sort of asgardian super science way. The gold's all glow. Gold.
17:30
Geoff
Yes, they do.
17:31
Case
The weapons actually glow, which I thought was a nice effect.
17:34
Geoff
And I noticed upon rewatching it that a lot of the colors of the shield, of the weaponry, of everything else, it reminds me of things you see in Guardians of the Galaxy.
17:44
Case
Yes, yes. Especially the first guardians of the Galaxy. Yeah.
17:47
Geoff
And it actually reminded me of the. Wow, I'm blanking on them. The perfect society in Guardians of the Galaxy two. Chase after.
17:56
Case
Yes, yes. Oh, God. I forget the. The people's name, but. Yeah, right.
18:00
Geoff
But even their color scheme, like, for their interfaces and for their shields, it even has that similar kind of design to it. Or it made me think of it and I appreciate the consistency.
18:11
Case
Yeah. I wonder if there's sort of an implication of this is how super science works in a certain scheme, I would.
18:18
Geoff
Imagine, for MCU, there's a couple of design documents that are.
18:22
Case
Yeah, I thought that, like, blue was kind of their, like, super science thing, like the hydra energy beams and the tesseract, and then the arc react tesseract energy. Well, yeah. And ultimately, it's revealed that the Iron man armor is basically powered by a synthetic tesseract. So you can sort of argue that's sort of how it all works. But up until that point, a lot of the Thor magic had been blue, also mostly his lightning. But there was like a.
18:46
Geoff
But you can only make that so many colors.
18:48
Case
Right. And there was sort of this implication that, like, the reason Iron Man's armor could be charged by Thor's lightning was that they were compatible technologies. Yeah, but it's hard to really say.
19:01
Geoff
But they're interesting, unanswered questions. They're actually interesting because they're unanswered.
19:05
Case
Yeah. I liked how the weapons and shields glowed. Like, the shields, when they were struck flashed kind of like Independence Day, but with this golden light. And the weapons, like the swords, when they were swung, had this white light to them. Yeah, I thought that was a really cool touch. And it actually makes me think that what they. I really would have liked to see more of, and this is just a general design thing, so it's not really part of a pitch, is I would have really liked to see the weapons that they use for their space battles and stuff, to feel more like viking weapons that had, like, stars, like, compressed into them, like Thor's hammer houses, like a dwarf star that's been pressed. So maybe, like, lesser energy sources are just how asgardian technology works.
19:49
Case
Like, they make arrows that really, if you described it to anyone, would sound like magic, but it's actually like this perfect nuclear weapon or something like that, forged into this narrow shaft or into this bow that could create these energy constructs.
20:06
Geoff
I agree.
20:07
Case
Instead of laser guns, make it a little bit more medieval weapon, but energy.
20:11
Geoff
Medieval weapon, kind of like Chewbacca's bowcaster.
20:14
Case
Yeah, exactly. This whole cultural thing should have reasons for it. They have specific things that need to feel that way, and that's how they sort of built up their technology. So that.
20:25
Geoff
And that's how earth got it as well. Like, because there's that idea that Asgardians existed. Are they gods? Well, the Vikings of old certainly thought so when they first saw them.
20:35
Case
Yeah. But to make it. So it didn't feel like just an affect, like, otherwise, you know, like, Odin shows up at one point. He doesn't really feel very magical in this movie. In fact, almost every time we see him do anything impressive, it's with, like, a staff laser. I same with Burr in the prologue. At that point, it's just a rifle. Whereas in the first movie, he could rip the godhood away from Thor. And it would have been nice to just feel like the technology was so integrated into everything that it didn't need to have these shapes and forms that look like weapons that we understand. It should be that they infuse a much more medieval style culture.
21:19
Geoff
Yeah. And one could argue that it probably aired more towards the side of conventional weaponry, so people would know it's conventionally a weapon, but people can also make the leap. When you see, oh, that weird, archaic looking thing is wrecking those ships, it must be a weapon. So I can see why they went that way. But I agree with you. I think they should have gone a little harder on the. On the viking trappings, in a way, and the infusion of magic and science, which actually goes very much into my thesis for how I feel the movie should have gone.
21:57
Case
All right, Jeff, so I think that's a great lead in. What's your pitch?
22:01
Geoff
My pitch is the fact that the first, Thor was very much about being fit to rule, to being worthy of being Thor, to wield that godhood to be. The second movie should be a little bit more of what does it mean to succeed, and not in the sense of how to succeed in business, to ascend to the throne. That is a little thing that's mentioned in this movie. And with the idea of the dark elves being a fight of Odin's father, there is this notion of son succeeding, father ascending to the throne, and secrets left behind. Odin believed the dark elves destroyed, whether on Bor's word or legend.
22:46
Geoff
And Thor contemplating what it is to defend his homeland, what it is to fight for what he believes in, what it is to be worthy of king of Asgard, as well as the fact that Loki did everything he did to be worthy of being king as well, in his own deranged way. So I think they really didn't spend enough time at Asgard. They also could have made an excellent shadow to the first film if, okay, you allow Jane to be infected by the aether or infused by it or whatever you want to call it, but you then bring her to Asgard, where Odin is upset because it makes all of Asgard into a target, but no matter what, everywhere is going to be a target. And Thor is trying to defend the nine realms, which he just brought peace to.
23:37
Geoff
But this also draws out, well, the consequences and everything else. And I don't think they should know it's the dark elves at the outset. They just know something is after the ether. And I feel more of the fight should be brought to Asgard. So you can have more of Jane there, so you have more moments like her calling the soul forge a quantum field generator, and that breakdown of science and technology and an exploration of that. And there are so many great characters and people already cast in the first film that make a return for the second, and that gives them a little more room to breathe, a little more room to be. And if you want to have a little bit of stakes of it reaching earth, great.
24:18
Geoff
But we've had earth threatened so many times, and we certainly gave a big crap about guardians of the galaxy without them ever going to earthen. It's not that we as human beings don't care if the stakes aren't earth. The stakes can be Asgard. Ragnarok could be threatened. And so I think with them coming to Asgard, you can certainly have not just Thor and Loki time, which I felt was some of the stronger character moments. You get a little more of Odin in there.
24:49
Case
Okay. I can dig that.
24:50
Geoff
Yeah. Whether it's confronting Odin about his decisions and not just going behind his back about. You can still have the terrible sort of plans that happened in the dark world, but in quicker bursts and smaller ways. You don't have to have the warriors three and Sith basically be that kitty pride episode of X Men, that pilot where it's like everybody gets left behind because they're fighting this one problem to the next one. To the next one. So it's just you guys now? No, let's actually explore this. Please show the kingdom, dammit.
25:25
Case
No, that works actually really well with some thoughts I had. I had this thought when I was watching it, which was that doesn't it kind of defang the tension that the rainbow bridge is fixed right at the start? They make a thing in the first avengers that it was a big effort to get Thor to Earth to come after the tesseract. And then the tesseract, which I don't think they've said, but I think is the space Infinity Stone.
25:51
Geoff
I know they've identified it. I think you're right.
25:55
Case
It creates portals. The energy that it provides are portals to other dimensions, and it allows free movement from the different realms. It'd be really interesting if that's how Thor was going about this now disconnected broken series of worlds. And I was thinking open the movie instead of with this prologue that echoes the first movie, but has less thematic weight, is not as interesting. Doesn't really have payoff with the reveal that Loki is a frost giant. Actually doesn't do really as much for the story in any way. Open with selvige giving his rant on the chalkboard about the convergence of the nine realms.
26:44
Case
And then you can start having your story where Thor is able to freely move, but chaos is broken out and people are, the peoples of the nine realm are starting to be able to move between the worlds because of the convergence, but theyre getting stuck there, and thats causing even more chaos. And the reason why Thor couldnt just come back is because theres only one thing that Asgard has to move freely between the realms without, like, huge issues, right.
27:13
Geoff
And so he basically can only do it on official business, right.
27:17
Case
And so, like, he was there on earth for this one thing, but now he's got the tesseract, but, like, it's still super selfish. Like, he can't just go to Earth to see Jane, because it's such a huge, like, tactical thing. It'd be like if there was only one plane for moving troops around. And it's like, well, I gotta get back to see my girlfriend.
27:34
Geoff
No, you don't.
27:36
Case
Exactly. That's how important it is. And I was thinking that, well, what if part of what was going on is that the dark elves, they sort of set up as being this force that existed in the dawn of time, and then, but we beat them, and now they've fallen back, and as far as we know, they're all dead. What if they weren't all dead? What if they were just a broken people? And what if they had been deposed from their home, like, they had been exiled from their home realm, and because of this convergence, they were able to come back to it and regain their strength? Well, yeah, and, like, what if that realm was this, like, decimated kingdom? Yeah, and what we're seeing is actually what Asgard does to people who they conquer.
28:20
Geoff
It's true.
28:21
Case
Like, with the frost giants, it was hard to really tell because of this icy world. But what if, like, the implication was, like, everyone Asgard has conquered by force and not diplomacy. Like, you are left a broken society. At best, you're going to be in your homeland, but stripped of all your might and power. And at worst, you are going to be, like, completely away from your home and all your possessions reduced from all glory, and it will be a terrible fate for you and your children.
28:49
Geoff
Yeah. Well, one of the things I was thinking of, in making it a story of succession, you have this idea of the dark. You know, people think that before the universe there was nothing. They're wrong. There was the darkness, and it was terrible. You have the dark elves living in the age before the universe, and then the light comes and it's this fact of they're just trying to hold on as things move on, trying to pull us back, move back and regress. And it could be another statement on things or another avenue of exploration of, you know, even one of the lines in the movie, everything has its dawn and has its dusk, and who determines that? And that also plays in just as much of having them as a decimated people. Who gets that?
29:39
Geoff
Say, how high up does that go or how far down?
29:46
Case
Yeah, because it would be nice if, like, the final battle, actually, we got to get some exposition from Malekith being like, this land was once my people's, and it was your family that stripped us of it. Like, Maliketh in this movie hates Asgard and hates, you know, he's never met any of the Asgardians that we see.
30:07
Geoff
I don't even think he knows Thor's name by the end of it.
30:10
Case
No, I don't think he does. Which is crazy. Like, you know, they do a lot of things in here to sort of, like, just have him be kind of a generic villain. And it'd be nice if at least we got. We gave him some pathos beyond just like, I want to make stuff dark again.
30:25
Geoff
Right. We must turn off the dark.
30:33
Case
Yeah, I got it. I gotcha anyway. Because that's just. That's what's missing in this movie. Or, I mean, that's one of the things that's missing in this movie. Like, you know, the style. Like, Alan Taylor is the director and he's mostly known for doing Game of Thrones, which I think is the inverse of what Thor should be. Like, Game of Thrones is finding the human element in a fantasy setting, but having the fantastical nature stripped down. I would argue that it's what happens after someone's d and D campaign by a thousand years. Yeah, this series is. Or like, the Thor series is like when you got to epic and you just keep on going.
31:18
Geoff
Yes, it is.
31:19
Case
You know, it's exact opposite in that regard. And it's so, like, Alan Taylor could be interesting, and I think he makes choices, but I think they were playing it safe in the time that they were doing it. Like, Game of Thrones had just started to hit the clear rise in popularity. I think this was like, season three era.
31:40
Geoff
Yeah. It was a big thing, but it wasn't like, oh, my God.
31:44
Case
Yeah. But, like, people knew, like, this is how people are starting to embrace fantasy and enjoy fantasy. And, like, there's a lot of lord of the Rings style stuff. Like, all the stuff with the elves at the beginning looks very lord of the Rings.
31:55
Geoff
Oh, yeah.
31:55
Case
You know, along with this exposition and all that, I just. I would rather have it be like, well, these are broken people who seize the opportunity of this convergence of realities to make their move. And in this case, that move has a personal stake because Jane has come into contact it with the aether accidentally.
32:18
Geoff
Yeah. And like, yeah, it's a matter of happenstance that it becomes a personal vendetta for Thor.
32:27
Case
And then let's get into. Let's get into act three.
32:31
Geoff
Yeah.
32:33
Case
This is all well and good talking about, like, how could Malekith be more compelling and whatnot? How can act three be more compelling? There's good stuff going on in it.
32:41
Geoff
Yes.
32:42
Case
But what? Oh, my God. They need a cooler place to be fighting in besides Earth.
32:46
Geoff
Yeah.
32:47
Case
Like, the dark world in it is just like rock quarry world, and it is so dull.
32:54
Geoff
Yeah.
32:54
Case
So here's my pitch for this part of it. Like, this. Twisted. They already wanted to set up some other worlds. They actually do show shots of other worlds. What if, in this whole escape from Asgard sequence, which generally, I enjoyed having Loki lead the way out to get to Malekith, they had to travel on foot between all the realms, and in doing so, they accidentally kept on starting shit along the way. Not major ones, but where armed forces would be like, these intruders from Asgard or something like that. Every single encounter, it doesn't need to be a ton of worlds, but we start, let's say three worlds. We see that foresty world that Hogan the Grimm is from, and we could see an ice world, something like that, where the people start following them, wondering what the hell is up.
33:50
Case
And I would not have started the movie with them, like, oh, and now we have peace. I would much rather have it all be a war torn area. So they think that the Asgardians are invading and they follow the Asgardians, and then, oh, we're at this next world. What's going on? Like, how'd we get here?
34:06
Geoff
Everyone's confused.
34:07
Case
And so it's almost kind of like the end of PCU.
34:11
Geoff
Yeah.
34:13
Case
Where it's like, the end point where it's like, oh, all the nine realms saw you almost give your life to defend them.
34:20
Geoff
Yeah.
34:20
Case
Like, how? Cause, like, they don't really. He's still in a different world. It's not like all reality is converged.
34:26
Geoff
Right. And as well as the fact that they can all get behind the idea of. Wait, you want to end all existence? I'm part of all existence.
34:35
Case
Well, what if all the realms actually had representatives there? Like, they were all chasing after Thor, and maybe at that last moment, Thor, like, reveals the fact that, like, having gone through this whole thing, like, the biggest part of the plan, and maybe that's the thing that Loki didn't even see, is that they weren't on the run, really what they were doing was that they were, like, drawing reinforcements that didn't even realize that they were reinforcements.
34:58
Geoff
Yeah, that would be a big fun.
35:01
Case
Because, like, that last fight with Malekith is not very interesting for what Thor does. Like, he's just there and he's like, I'm gonna. Like, he tanks. But he does not do any DP's.
35:11
Geoff
Agreed.
35:12
Case
And what would be really cool is if, like, they were, like, secretly using these, like, devices, as they were, to position people so that they could actually step forward and, like, assist Thor, in fighting Malekith. Because, like, Malekith should be like, as you know, he's someone who's gone so far out there that whatever other grudges anyone has with Asgard, this is the worst option.
35:38
Geoff
Yeah. So we'll talk about Asgard later. For now, let's deal with this guy.
35:43
Case
Like, this one's not one of the bad ones. You're one of the bad ones.
35:47
Geoff
Yeah. Like, this can still be talked out. Darkness. Let's. Let's fight. I'm. And I think that would be a pretty excellent third act, and that would definitely be a good continuation of the mood shift when Thor breaks Loki out of prison, because it carries with it a certain amount of. There's this great sequence of playing tricks on the expectations of the audience and of the characters. And that would be a wonderful master stroke of Thor really pulling one over on Loki. And you could still have Loki sacrifice and you can still have all of that happen. It wouldn't be. I don't think it would be too crazy to have the secret usurpation happen more towards the end of the film.
36:37
Case
Yeah. Cause you could even have, like. I'm kind of torn about the prison stuff earlier in the movie. I think it's kind of just like, oh, yet another movie where, oh, he just wanted to be captured so he could break out kind of plots. And at least it's earlier in the movie, but it's so weird. And, like, I'd almost rather they just attacked. Like, what? What? Like, nothing about the breakout really matters to their attack. It doesn't really, like, I mean, I guess he lowers the shields. So it's kind of a trojan horse, but it's not a really effective one. They're invisible foes. Like, they could have just gotten in regardless, had them attack as a seal team strike that takes out the shields protecting the city, and then all the dark elf ships attack more aggressively en masse.
37:32
Geoff
I agree.
37:33
Case
So we could have gotten away with that kind of silly plot point, but it does provide a way for a lot of soldiers to be in one spot that are from different realms. I don't know.
37:45
Geoff
Yeah, I know.
37:46
Case
I don't know.
37:47
Geoff
And, I mean, that's certainly why I take such a drastic cut with my change in thesis. Like, make it about something. And you already have the elements there. You're already giving their mother a bigger role and then killing her just to give Thor and Loki a reason to team up, which I have problems with, but, you know, figure that out.
38:09
Case
I mean, they definitely wanted to do something with Rene Russo. There's a lot of casting in the first movie where you're like, oh, wow, you got big names. Okay, okay.
38:19
Geoff
And certainly I don't remember if I've mentioned this before. Something that I think would have also helped is if they didn't have Jane pining over Thor. If. Didn't. If they. You know. Cause, yes, Thor was very eventful the first film, and it was a lot of emotions and a lot was going on, but that was two years ago, and Jane is a scientist, and she has her work, and whether she has a love life or not is the material. She's still doing her thing.
38:48
Case
Oh, this is a good time to bring up timelines, by the way.
38:50
Geoff
Okay.
38:53
Case
It's not that funky in this movie for the most part. It's just like, oh, it's been two years, but Loki is just arriving at Asgard, and I kind of feel like there should be a feeling that some more time is passing from the first Avengers movie because there was Thor and it's two years after the first Thor movie. But Avengers was only, like, a year before. So, like, what is. What is that timeline for everything?
39:19
Geoff
That is an excellent point. Do they establish that there's maybe, like, they drop Loki off and then Thor, spend some time pacifying the nine realms. Is that what happens?
39:29
Case
They don't really make that clear.
39:31
Geoff
Yeah, I think that's what it's supposed to be, but they don't make that clear.
39:34
Case
Right. It might be interesting to, like, start. Start the movie with them having to actually get Loki back. Although I guess they've got the tesseract. So I don't know. Like, that's the thing. They had the tesseract. They should have. Thor should have just brought Loki immediately there.
39:46
Geoff
Right. You could have had a wonderful sequence of Loki trying to pass the time in that prison and that could have gotten interesting.
39:54
Case
Yeah. Instead of just, like, witnessing a prison break like that. That sequence just felt pointless.
40:00
Geoff
I agree.
40:01
Case
Aside from, again, like, oh, we have a master villain, but in this case, it's his dragon, it's not him.
40:07
Geoff
Right. Or giving Loki agency in his mother's murder by telling him to take the stairway to the left.
40:14
Case
Right.
40:15
Geoff
But that's about it. So, yeah, it's a little. There's a lot of things where it's. I see what you were trying to do, but this is ultimately cardboard. This isn't solid.
40:27
Case
Yeah. With a lot of references. Like, clearly they love the Walt Simonson run, like curse, obviously. And the fact that they use Malekith, which this one made me be like, oh, maybe we'll finally get Beta Ray Bill. Which, you know, obviously, they're never going to do that without it being, like, much deeper into the runs of the movies. Like, war two was not where Beta Ray Bill was going to show up.
40:54
Geoff
It had been fun, but it would have been confusing.
40:58
Case
Not sure how you're going to get there from where they left Thor. You know, he, like, he was all cut off. And like I said, it really. It's already lowering the stakes by having the rainbow bridge work.
41:11
Geoff
Yeah, I think that's something that could have happened mid film or after the convergence broke.
41:15
Case
Yeah. Like, maybe they fixed it and that's part of, like, how reinforcements are getting to them or something like that.
41:21
Geoff
Yeah. No, I agree.
41:23
Case
Like, why didn't Thor take the tesseract, which would have been so much faster to get to Malekith? Oh, he didn't bring the tesseract because actually, and, like, something Jane figured out, this is how the tesseract could repair the bifrost.
41:37
Geoff
Yeah. Having her.
41:39
Case
I really like that part right there.
41:41
Geoff
Yeah.
41:41
Case
Like, get Svelwig. And then, like, that's like, he's the one who, like, brings it all together to explain how to use the tesseract on the bifrost. Cause he knows a lot about the tesseract.
41:52
Geoff
Yes, he does.
41:53
Case
God damn it. That's actually a really good idea.
41:55
Geoff
I think it'd be a lot of fun. I really want there to be. I wanted there to be a lot more Jane in Asgard and Jane as the scientist. Because in the first Thor film, she's, you know, a three dimensional human being, but almost has a pathological love of, like, understanding and. No, don't take my research. And what is this? And what. And she's. She doesn't get to do that nearly as much. She gets little glimmers and moments. But I think if they spent more time in Asgard, let there be a little more discovery between Thor and Jane. Like, not have this established relationship for them, but have, like, this strange. So we had that weird adventure a couple years ago. I still been thinking. I've been thinking about you. I mean, I thought about.
42:43
Geoff
Yeah, well, you're infected with the ether, so come with me to my home, and we'll get that figured out. And have her running into asgardian customs a little bit and bringing her scientific know how and at whatever point. Yeah, bringing selvig in would be. That'd be brilliant. And it would be a very interesting closure as far as all of the strange things he's had happen to him.
43:07
Case
Yeah, I mean, you can bring the whole team. Cause you could also bring Kat Denning's character in and, like, have that whole group. And that could actually be kind of, like, a fun twist on things where before, they were trying to figure out things from Earth related to Asgard. Now in Asgard, they're the ones trying to put stuff together and, like, put pieces together. Like, I don't want to, like, have it be one of the cliche of, like, oh, but humans figure out things in a way that, like, the people, other people can't. But I do like the idea of, like, maybe different perspectives. Like, if the Asgardians look at things as, like, they forge science into their things, like, the. They wear traditional armor because that's still how they think of things.
43:47
Case
But they make these incredible metals that have nanotechnology to create the plate in chainmail. And their hammers, like, house these power sources, but they're still a hammer. Like, the way they look at things is like, this medieval mindset that's been gifted with super science, as opposed to, like, having earned the science from start to finish, kind of, like, in the series. Like, do you know the series the Uplift War and, like, the related books, I don't. So the Sci-Fi novel series where the key detail is that humanity in the future has become a spacefaring race that has become accepted into galactic society. But the thing is, they are weird because they are the first race to ever make their way to space on their own, as far as anyone knows.
44:32
Geoff
Oh.
44:33
Case
That every other race has been stewarded into the galactic civilization from some fort. From some form of hunter gatherer esque or like, some sort of, like, proto sapient life. Yeah. You know, so by this point, like, by the time they, like, make contact, humans had begun doing experiments on dolphins and champion or chimpanzees. And it earned them to be the right to be considered a steward species unto themselves, which gave them new rights that they wouldn't have had if they hadn't done that.
45:06
Geoff
Oh, cool.
45:07
Case
And so there are races that are indentured to them, and humans are not so aggressive as some other ones, but there's this weird galactic politics where society goes back so far that no one remembers how far, like, how it all works and who were the first. They're so far back, it's crazy. But more importantly, a lot of societies have never figured out a lot of the basic things that we figured are not basic, but the more advanced steps that we figured out because they've always had access to resources that we didn't. So calculus is seen as this weird dark art that humanity tries to put forward every now and then, because they've always had computers with infinite ram who can crunch the numbers arithmetically to figure out all the trajectories and everything like that, because they don't need to figure out proofs.
45:55
Case
They can just go as hard as they can just compute as much as they need to.
46:00
Geoff
Interesting.
46:01
Case
And I love an idea that, like, maybe. Maybe a younger race will put a perspective and have to learn ways to do things that isn't accurate or isn't, like, necessarily the most powerful way of things, but it's a different set of eyes.
46:14
Geoff
Yeah. And it would be very interesting having Jane and selvig doing that. And I am one that argues, as much as I love Darcy's character and as much as I love Kat Dennings as an actress, I don't see much point of having Darcy in this movie, but that would be an interesting justification. So you at least have a more non scientist perspective. And it's not just, oh, humans are magical, it's. No, no, these two hyper focused, very intelligent scientists have a unique perspective.
46:45
Case
Yeah. And with Darcy as sort of like a. Yet a different set of voices. Like, in the first one, she's the one who talked about the ancient aliens theory. So maybe she's the one who puts together the things that were like, oh, this advanced thing and this advanced thing. Well, wait, maybe there's a connection between those two. Oh, Christ, that does make sense. We never thought about that.
47:08
Geoff
She's the lateral thinker. Yes, absolutely.
47:12
Case
I mean, that could be very cool. I'm liking that idea a lot right now.
47:16
Geoff
Yeah. Because, again, you had Asgardians on earth for the first film. I know it feels cliche, but it really isn't. To have the earthlings in Asgard for the second one, especially as you raise the stakes on the cosmic scale.
47:29
Case
It'd be really fun to have either Natalie Portman or Kat Dennings go, like, another and smash something to the customs.
47:36
Geoff
Oh, Kat Dennings would totally, like, Darcy would totally do that 1st 100%. And you wouldn't even have to have the bit of Volstagg doing it at the beginning. It would just be even. Like. It would make an even better callback where she does it. Jane did it. She goes, what? Thor did it. And she gets another.
47:53
Case
Yeah. Like, no one is weirded out by it. Like, Jane is mortified, but everyone else is just like, yep. Okay, here you go.
48:01
Geoff
And then there's just that, like, oh, okay. And then it's connected.
48:06
Case
Yeah. That would have been delightful. Oh, God, I kind of want that more than anything now. Like, we wasted Kat Dennings in this movie.
48:17
Geoff
They wasted Kat Dennings. They wasted Natalie Portman. They wasted.
48:20
Case
Well, Natalie Portman was kind of checked out in this movie.
48:23
Geoff
I know. Well, they also. Again, they didn't. They treat her as a love interest when there's so much more to that character.
48:29
Case
She's a big character, but, yeah, her interest is very small. Yeah. They don't give her a lot to do. That's interesting. They make her fused with the ether so that she's not just like, leverage as a damsel in distress, but like. Yeah, doesn't quite work.
48:46
Geoff
But that's. That's just, you know, putting a new hat on Malibu Stacey.
48:51
Case
Yeah.
48:52
Geoff
So I think giving her. Giving the ether to bring her over, but then having her be a fresh scientific perspective in Asgard while everything comes to assault and attack and the stakes are there, you know, it almost diffuses things to go back to earth. It's weird. So, yeah, I agree.
49:13
Case
Let's kind of wrap this up, because I think we have some good ideas. I think we can agree that this movie's not strong enough on its own.
49:22
Geoff
That we're making something that can stand on its own.
49:26
Case
Yeah. So I'd say we cut the prologue open a little bit more in media res, go from where we left off with the Avengers, and then sort of follow Thor a little bit of. But don't have it so neat. Don't have them just wrap up. These wars on the other realms have that be an ongoing problem that is creating constant trouble for them where the nine realms are difficult to get to because the Bifrost is still damaged from the first Thor movie. That big sacrifice he made so that it shouldn't just be like. Well, because it's like, if you destroy it, you'll never find her again. Two years later. Oh, we fixed it. It's cool.
50:04
Geoff
And I'm Heimdall. I see everything. It's cheapen.
50:09
Case
Yeah. So make the destruction that was wrought on the dark elves much more Asgard's fault that they have a quest for vengeance, because Asgard is a terrible conqueror. Like, if you come to them with diplomacy, it might be a different story, but if you try to fight them, they will do terrible things to you in their war, and that's not a good state to be in. And that's why there's a justified vengeance from them. Bring the. Bring all these humans that we find so interesting and fun. Like, all these characters are great. The actors are good actors. Bring them to Asgard to be fish out of water after the other movie was the reverse of that. So this will be a nice kind of touch for the characters. We can really make the best out of the strengths of all these actors.
50:58
Case
Still spends time with Tom Hiddleston as Loki because he was blowing up at the time. Makes no sense not to.
51:05
Geoff
And the chemistry that Hemsworth and Hiddleston have is fantastic on screen.
51:09
Case
Yeah. I could use with him saying, you still don't trust me, brother? A little bit less. Because I think he says four times during their escape sequence.
51:16
Geoff
Yeah, it's true.
51:17
Case
Which it's like, no, of course he doesn't. Still, nothing has changed. It's been like a day pretty much, and not even. But I do enjoy sort of, like, their escape kind of thing, but make the merging of the worlds the interesting way that they're able to get from realm to realm. Like that is the reason why the lack of the Bifrost doesn't lock them out of things, but it does make it a race against time. Because not only do they have to beat Malekith they also have to not get trapped where they are.
51:46
Geoff
Agreed.
51:48
Case
And, yeah. Just have Malekith be a little bit more compelling about the loss that his people have faced and not just like, oh, I just want to make things dark.
51:58
Geoff
Yeah. And it would suit Eccleston's portrayal of Malekith far better that he's broken and hateful and burning and that would sue even more that kind of vengeance.
52:15
Case
Yeah.
52:16
Geoff
So, yeah.
52:17
Case
So I think that all sounds like a stronger movie. And you could actually. You keep the threat more focused off Earth. Earth could play a part in the finale and they could have come to Earth a couple of times, but the actual threat is to the nine realms. It's not just a one realm. So that would all be nice. And I think, just stop trying to make it Lord of the Rings. There's a lot of it that's. That's really trying to ape Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones and just sort of embrace the fact that we're not talking about your starter characters in this, like, low level, low magic campaign. We're talking about, like, very much the epic level characters where they have hammers that can crack the world.
53:05
Geoff
We have gods in space.
53:07
Case
Yeah.
53:07
Geoff
This is not third level. D and D. Yeah.
53:10
Case
Bounded accuracy has no place here. This is like power creep levels of Pathfinder or fourth edition. This is nothing five e or.
53:21
Geoff
This is not old school renaissance. This is level 27 Pathfinder.
53:25
Case
Yeah.
53:26
Geoff
And actually, speaking of all this, just a quick little thing. I realize it would be hilarious if you start with Selvig in the mental hospital. He never gets checked out, but Thor comes and gets him while he's in there.
53:38
Case
Oh, that'd be great.
53:39
Geoff
It'd be a great bit of comedy. It'd be a wonderful bit of, like, hilarity at the end when he comes back. And it would also honestly neaten things up a little bit. It would get him involved without having to have extra steps.
53:58
Case
Yeah. You could even reverse the scene with Natalie Portman not getting rained on, where Selvig's sitting out in the garden or something and just rain starts falling on him alone and all of a sudden, Thor lands right in front of him.
54:10
Geoff
Yes.
54:11
Case
And he just grabs him and they take off.
54:14
Geoff
Yeah, exactly. You can still even have the, you know, the throw out the medication moment if you want that. But it would just. Yeah, it would be a very fun twist.
54:26
Case
All right, man, these sound like some really good ideas. I hope that everyone can kind of get behind it. It's, you know, it's a harder movie because it's so. It's so in the middle. It's the 8th Marvel movie of that universe. And well, before we even get into sort of like the next gear shift in the Marvel movies, Winter Soldier is really where I'd argue that phase two truly begins. Iron man three kind of could just be like, oh, yeah, it's the immediate follow up. But winter soldiers, where the stakes for the rest of ever since, really have really kicked in.
55:04
Geoff
There's a big status quo shift. Yeah, this one's more of a. This is the clutch shift of the entire MCU. They're switch, they are changing up gears, and this is that moment where they put it in neutral.
55:15
Case
Yeah, tread water before. Before you take a dive, exactly how I would say it. But yeah, thanks for talking this out with me, man. I'm so happy to have you on and to talk about this with you. Where can people find you?
55:31
Geoff
Well, I have my video game podcast, fun and games, which is having a small bit of a hiatus as I'm in the middle of. I'm in a very busy show schedule right now. I'm in a show in New York City, so Matt and I are trying to get some episodes put together, but we'll be back soon. I'll put some stuff up about scheduling.
55:53
Case
Everyone should be checking out Jeff's podcast, and when they're done doing that, they should be checking out certainpov.com, where you can check out this podcast. All of our other ones, the Star Wars RPG, which we have now named the Scruffy Nerf herders, our main show, certain point of view. But you can find all of that on certainpov.com dot. Next time, we're going to be talking about Highlander two, the quickening. But until then, stay scruffy, my Nerf herders.
56:22
Geoff
Thanks for listening to certain point of View's another past podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com dot.
57:00
Sam
Are you tired of watching your beloved characters being tortured by careless authors?
57:04
Case
Are you sick of feeling like they could have swapped out all of the painful action and the plot would remain untouched?
57:10
Geoff
Subscribe to books that the fortnightly book review podcast.
57:13
Case
Focusing on fictional depictions of trauma, we.
57:15
Geoff
Assume that the characters reactions are reasonable.
57:18
Sam
And focus on how badly or well they were served by their authors.
57:22
Geoff
Join us for our minor character spotlights.
57:24
Case
Main character discussions, and favorite non traumatic things in the dark books we love.
57:28
Sam
Find us on Spotify, iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts.
57:34
Case
And we're back. All right, so, like I said, come out swinging on this one. There's, like, really very little time between us starting the episode and getting into complaints about the episode or about the movie, I should say.
57:48
Sam
Right? For sure. Do you now, hearing it back, feel that you feel the same?
57:58
Case
I think that the movies that have come since this conversation occurred have done a lot to rehabilitate both this movie and the Thor franchise as a whole. We mentioned in the episode that it's right before Ragnarok was set to come out. And we had seen the trailers, so we knew the tone and were all excited about it, but we hadn't seen it yet. So I think that is one thing that really has rehabilitated the franchise as a whole. And then, of course, in Avengers Endgame, which I believe I reference predictively, that it's like, because I reference the Infinity Stones. Well, it's going to come around in some way when we get to the last Avengers movie and it actually does.
58:44
Case
What I couldn't have predicted at the time was that they were literally going to time travel during this movie and have scenes that sort of, like, additional nuance and character, particularly to Rene Russo in a way that's like, okay, yeah, no, we're given some fun stuff to this. We're making us kind of nostalgic for this era here. I don't think it really changes my take on the movie as a whole, but it certainly softens some of the frustrations that I had with the movie at the time, because I like the Thor franchise. I talk about how I would have really loved to delve more into Walt Simonson kind of craziness, and I really would have liked the Thor property to have a fair swing on screen.
59:32
Case
And I was worried at the time that this movie may have killed the momentum combined with the fact that the first one also wasn't the strongest out the gate. Of all the Marvel movies, Thor's a cool series, but, like, there's some weird bullshit and you gotta be in for it, and, like, it's hard to strike that balance, right?
59:52
Sam
Yeah, for sure. For sure.
59:57
Case
I will say that this movie kind of struck me for how it looked at the time relative to the larger, like the larger MCU franchise. Like Iron man three, I would argue looks. Looks more like a phase one movie in terms of its color palette. And I weirdly say it's dark in tone. And then I immediately go on to explain that I'm talking about color tone, but there's one point where I say that in the episode and just like, no, what I mean is that it's very amber. And there's, the color scheme is on the darker side. It's a little bit more muted at some spots, but with these warm colors for everything. And I will say that I am more appreciative of it now, considering that so many of the movies have really started to blend together in that.
01:00:45
Case
That initial kind of design that was a little bit of a refinement of the previous, like, orange and teal everything, color corrected look that was going on in blockbusters, going into it, and Marvel just looked a little bit cleaner. Just a hair difference. Iron man one looks not that far off from a Michael Bay movie, but there's just something about it that, like, is just a little bit less harsh.
01:01:13
Sam
Yeah, no, I agree with you on that one. Yeah.
01:01:16
Case
And that goes all the way through the Avengers and through Iron man three. And then this one, I felt like, had, like, you start seeing a different color palette, and at the time, it was, like, kind of jarring to me, and it was still a little jarring because, like, it was, like, weird that Avengers two had that more, like, amber kind of color palette as well. But now that we're, you know, so far out from that and, like, there. There's way more of a breadth of movies, and, like, in a lot of ways, we're, like, really asking for more of these movies to have that kind of color palette. I am more appreciative of the way it's shot.
01:01:46
Sam
Yeah, I honestly really loved the color palette in this. I was. I kind of. I think we've talked about this before where I've just been. I've always say that, like, the superheroes that are more colorful are always, like, my jamden. So I I enjoyed, you know, that because I'm so tired of seeing drab superhero movies, which for a while, was a staple, definitely of DC, but, yeah, no, I actually, like, really liked the way that this movie was shot. And I thought there was a lot of design elements that went into the set and the armor on costuming that was pretty cool. And, like, really, you could tell that the. The designers really went for it, you know? So that is definitely a positive for me with this film. This film is still. I don't want.
01:02:44
Sam
I don't know if it's my least favorite because there are some MCU films, like, I don't think. I haven't seen quantumanium, so I don't know. But this is one of my least favorite of the MCU films. I just think that it's kind of a train wreck of a film. Like, just, like, as a film. And I know the Internet has had nostalgia for it, and there's a bunch of people who were kids when they first saw this, and they're like, this movie is amazing. It's not. And I. I think my biggest issues are, and I think this is true for, like, the first two films of the Thor franchise, for me, is that I just feel like. Like there's never enough time to kind of sit with the two main leads. I never really feel a real connection between Natalie Portman and Chris Hemsworth.
01:03:36
Sam
And I always just feel like it'd just better to just always just have him act with Tom Hiddleston, because he and Tom Hiddleston are great together.
01:03:46
Case
Yeah, we talk about that in the episode that, like, Natalie Portman had been sold on Patty Jenkins being the director and was not enthusiastic about the switch to Alan Tucson Taylor and the story that ultimately was coming out. So she certainly got a bit of a bait and switch and then was left to be fairly sullen about it. And I understand that, but, yes, it does not contribute to the fact that their chemistry just is not particularly amazing. I remember in the first Thor movie, there were interviews, and you could see that at the very least, it was like, oh, this is a very attractive man. And she's, like, registering that in those, like, early encounters. But in this movie, we're just not getting it in the same way. There's some good moments. There's the you brought me to see your moment.
01:04:36
Case
There's spots there where it's kind of cute, and you're like, all right. But, yeah, it's also the whole fact that there's so much of the b plot for her is about her romantic situations with the guy with frustrating.
01:04:52
Sam
I I think, in general, like, one of the ways of this movie really rubs me the wrong way is having her whole subplot be about that. Having, like, so much of it be about, like. Like, you guys mentioned it in the episode, and it's so spot on having her hanging away for, like, two years for Thor. Like, okay, look, he's. He's a God. I get it. But also, I don't get it. Like, she. Like, even if she's, like, secretly holding a torch for this guy who disappeared on her, she shouldn't be sitting at home in pajamas and ice cream. Unless it's just because that's what brings her joy. Like, like, I don't it was very annoying to me because there's nothing wrong with sitting at home in your pajamas and eating ice cream, guys. There's nothing wrong with it.
01:05:40
Sam
But the implication that she's just, like, a really sad person, because this guy. And, like, you're out here wearing lady clothes. It just annoyed me, and it still annoys me when I was re watching it, because I did rewatch it for the first time in. When did this come out? I don't know. We'll just say over ten years. Because I saw this once in theater, and I was like, I'm done. Because I just think it felt like the movie was such a mess, and I felt that it has pacing issues and it drags sometimes. Although there were great moments. It just wasn't enough to really sell this film to me. But, yeah. And killing off her neighbors. I know you wanted to do something with her, but I hated it.
01:06:31
Case
Yeah. I mean, like, the scenes weren't necessarily the worst, but, like, it felt so. So fridgy.
01:06:40
Sam
Yeah, it just felt very convenient. Like, let's give this woman, you know, she's a great actor, so let's give her something to do. We'll give her a semi fight scene, and. And then she'll die, and then the two guys will have a reason to band together, which, like, they don't really need. Like, Loki and Thor always teaming up, and Loki's always backstabbing him, and then they team up again. That's. That's their. The nature of their relationship, right. That's just, like, who they are. Also, I noticed way before, I was just like, he's just arriving, and I'm so glad you guys mentioned that in the thing, because I was like, wait, what? Why would it take that long? I don't understand. Like, there's just, like, a lot of screwy things about the timeline and about just, like, how everything kind of comes to be.
01:07:38
Sam
It just feels like this weird vehicle just to have this fantasy moment. And one of the. I really loved the idea of bringing the human troupe into Asgard that you spoke about in the episode. I thought, how much more fun would that have been?
01:07:58
Case
Because, yeah. The idea of Kat Dennings going, like, another in smashing it, she would nail that line, and.
01:08:05
Sam
And it would have been fun, and it would have been, like, you know, something that's just, like, really given us a chance also to get to see Thor's friends again and maybe get to have more scenes with them. I also really hated that they had, like, that weird, like, they had Siv be like, territorial and kind of, like, quietly combative with Jane. Like, I was like, this just feels unnecessary. Like, yes, she's gonna guard Thor. Yes, that's her friend. But, like, I just felt like it was so, like hitting women against women in a movie where you're already underwriting the female lead so that she's just pining away, even though she's still a scientist and all this stuff. And she could have just buried herself in work.
01:08:56
Sam
But no, she's gonna sit at home on her days off and just eat ice cream and be made of. Made fun of by her friend. And then you fridge someone's mom, and then you have his female friend be, like, passive aggressively, kind of hostile to the girl he's brought in. And I was just like, I hate all of these beats for all the women in this film.
01:09:25
Case
Yeah, it's certainly not. It might technically pass the Bechdel test. I'm not really sure, but it's certainly not really doing anything generous to women in its portrayals.
01:09:45
Sam
No, no. I mean, and I think this is, like, this is a problem the MCU has had, you know, since the beginning, and I think that it's gradually gotten better. But I think in film in general, like, there is this issue where they mistake aggression for power or strength, and especially in women. And so, like, they're like, oh, how could it. How could they not be amazing? Siv has a weapon. You know, Freya held a weapon. These women are powerful, and it's like. But you're not using them in powerful ways. You're. You are, like, making them at odds with each other. You're making them be fridged. And you are putting Jane in a position where, like, the second or even the most important thing in her life is losing this dude and maybe having him come back again. Like, that's her storyline.
01:10:51
Sam
And so I can understand why Natalie Portman would be frustrated with this role in general, because the truth is, like, this movie does an incredible disservice to the women of its cast because even Kat Denning is just punchlines. Like, that's all she is, really.
01:11:13
Case
Yeah. We say in the episode that, like, it seems like there's no reason for her to be there in the movie that we got.
01:11:19
Sam
Yeah.
01:11:21
Case
I mean, she gives a couple. She gives one particularly good punchline in there when she says, meow. But I guess might know. I don't know.
01:11:32
Sam
No, it is funny. Listen, she's got great. She has got great comedic timing, but in the first movie, she made more sense. Right. And she was an assistant, and she has great computer skills, which we've seen her because she was in WandaVision. She was called in for that stuff. She is an intelligent character, right. She's just sarcastic and kind of, like, offbeat. And Jane's the genius, but she's still smart. She's still, like, in this sciencey computer world. She is a lab assistant for, you know, all, you know, even though they don't really define her. Right. She knows the science. She understands the science. She's. She's making systems for the science. They just never define find, like, what extent she understands. Right. Like, in the MCU, they kind of just plug her in. And this is, again, another disservice to her character because.
01:12:29
Sam
Because we never get a full definition. And she's just the quirky, funny friend who also types stuff on the computer. We. We don't really get that. And we had an opportunity in this film to maybe get a. Some more of that. Right. And I think, honestly, if they. If we had gone with your pitch and been in Asgard, it would have been so much more fun to see her, like, creatively work with Jane to figure things out, because clearly that's how their dynamic works. And. And it would have been so much more interesting. She could have still been really funny. She could have made best friends with one of Thor's friends. Like, Jane could have been totally confused about it. Maybe it would have been Siv. Like, sif is like, don't hurt him. And then, like. Like, Darcy's just like, her best friend.
01:13:19
Sam
She's like, yes, another. And, you know, it would kind of just solve some of it for me.
01:13:26
Case
I mean, like, I. Like, I keep on thinking there's no one of Thor's friends that would be particularly better than any other because I keep thinking, how cute would it be of a darcy and Hogan the Grimm or Volstagg the voluminous and even fandral? All of them. So basically, what I'm saying is, why even say just one? It could be the warriors three and sif.
01:13:54
Sam
Exactly. And you know what? There's an interesting thing. Both, I think you said it in the episode. You said, stop trying to make it Lord of the Rings. Yes, but here's the thing. They're missing the best parts of Lord of the Rings, and the best part of Lord of the Rings is when people are sitting around the fire talking. And how great would it have been to have a drinking game where the. Where basically the three and Civ are teaching darcy a drinking game, right. And they're like, holy shit, she's winning. And she's beating these Asgardians at this drinking game. Like, while, like. And, like, Jane could be like, hello, I'm dying. Like, dark matter inside me, and there's like, yeah, we'll figure that out. You know, amazing.
01:14:45
Sam
Because I think this movie is kind of like, this jumbled mess that is missing the humor. And I know that sometime, and I know that some people feel that the two later films, especially Thor and Thunder, got a lot of slack for it, have too much comedy in it. But I think that this one is so kind of. It's boring. And also, this, again, what I always complain about, I just don't. The villain is not great. It is. It is. He's kind of. He's fine. Like, he's got a thing. But also, like you said, why just the darkness, right? Like, he doesn't. It's so much more interesting the way that you guys presented it in the episode where you have him have a real, like, want to, you know, to have this.
01:15:47
Sam
This nation who's been beat down by the Asgardians and trying to reclaim their space and, like, take revenge and all of that. Like, that. That juxtaposition is so much more interesting to me. And, like, you know, which I'll note.
01:16:01
Case
They actually address in Ragnarok, but we couldn't have known that at the time.
01:16:05
Sam
Right, right. We didn't know that at the time. And so I think you need to know that. Right. Like, that's one of my issues with. With the prequels of Star wars is just, like, if I have to watch extra media to get to this, I don't know that this is actually a good movie. I want movies to be able to tie into other things, but to exist on their own. Right. Like, to be able to. And I know they don't want to sell us tickets. And this is the beginning of them kind of doing this thing where, like, you got to watch them all in order to understand. Like, I think up until this point.
01:16:44
Case
I mean, it's a weird one in that it is actually nothing required from the standpoint of what the actual, like, plot of the movie is, but for the significance of any of it to matter, it requires both movies that came before and after.
01:16:58
Sam
Right, exactly. It's such a. It's such a strange entry into this series, for sure. I think, in general, I think I would either just have everything happen at Asgard and maybe even, like, if you're going to treat Jane so poorly, not even include her and just make it a Loki and Thor film.
01:17:25
Case
Well, I really, listening back, I really like my pitch of it being like, oh, they start running through the different realms, like, how, oh, that would be amazing. And then, like, start building an army by having them chase after them PCU style. I was like, wait, this is great. I'm so proud of myself for that one. Go me.
01:17:46
Sam
And honestly, like, you can't. You really cannot beat the chemistry that Hiddleston and Hemsworth have together. Like, the two of them just really connect. Like, I actually feel that their performance in Thor one is what saves that first thor movie for me because I have my qualms with that movie as well. I enjoyed it, but it is, like, out of, like, the first phase. It is one of the more weak. It's one of the weaker films and, but their relationship. Their relationship. And like, that, the last act of it is so good that it almost makes you forgive the rest of everything else where it falls short because you're like, oh, my God. Yeah. You know, so I. I may have, not that I want to write women out of the story. Absolutely not.
01:18:47
Sam
But I just think that they could have come back to Jane later. They could have done something with just all the worlds and Asgard and, like, really made it. Like, Thor can't get back to earth right now. Like, he's too busy, like, taking care of the things that he needs to take care of, all these things he has to settle. And I just think that it would have been a much more fun movie.
01:19:16
Case
Yeah, I think there's a tone that they could have struck that would have been more appropriate for what we knew at the time. Hemsworth could do with the Thor franchise, even if there had only been once, which is that the tone of Thor from the first Avengers movie is an appropriate level of, like, oh, Hemsworth is funny. It was the Joss Whedon script, which is a particular style of humor, but he nailed it when he was doing it.
01:19:48
Case
And I think that we could have gotten to sort of a style and a mood, like in Avengers Infinity war, because that specifically, I think, hits a really interesting balance of Hemsworth being funny but still being a God and still being a God in a godly kind of quest that interacts interestingly with more traditional Sci-Fi elements, like the adventure to get Stormbreaker, with Rocket and with Groot as the more traditional Sci-Fi kind of companions means that there's this interesting fusion of the super science and then the God. Science and magic are kind of just one thing, just perspective element of it all that I think it would have been perfect. I think that's the area that this movie is overly leaning into.
01:20:47
Case
No, they're wielding weapons and that are actually energy weapons, and all this stuff is actually just super science, but we just make it look like it's retro, which is a harder balance. I think it's more interesting if it feels like that's the technology that they're coming from. And I talk about that with condensed star stuff when I talk about their weapons being that way. But I feel like we've seen it appropriately, and I feel like we always end up talking about in game more because it's the conclusion. But Infinity War nails that larger than life Thor, who is still funny.
01:21:28
Case
Ragnarok is going a little too far for some people, and love and Thunder went way too far for some people, but I think that Infinity War is just about as perfect as you can get in terms of the God stuff is there, and it feels huge and epic. But Hemsworth is a really compelling lead to sort of, like, carry the story through, especially how people react to him in that, you know, it's like, that's the right level of mood for the character that I think that this movie could have really benefited from, like, having Hemsworth still be funny even though he's in this huge, epic quest.
01:22:06
Sam
Right.
01:22:06
Case
And allow for, like, you know, have Kat Jennings be there. Have selvig be there. You know, I think that. I think that you can have Jane and just have the situation be that her opening whole bit is that Selvik is in the mental institute and she's trying to get him out, you know, like, you have a perfectly obvious setup for, like, what she's up to when we, like, check back in with her, and then at least it's not dealing with, like, her love life, you know?
01:22:33
Sam
Yeah. And it's. It's strange, too, how just because you brought this up, and I thought when I was first watching it, and I thought it again on my rewatch, it's strange to how very little Jane seems to care about Smeldik. Like, his. His disappearance, the fact that you see him on tv, like, being arrested and, like, all the, like, I don't really feel like she, like, does anything to, like, check in with him. Like, so I think it would have been. It's so strange. It's, like. And. And his, like, reappearance is played for, like, comedy, and it's shown on the news, but, like, her team doesn't really contact, like, comment on it. And this is someone who, like, they worked with very closely in the last movie.
01:23:22
Case
Right.
01:23:22
Sam
And I know it's been two years, but there's no real explanation as to, like, why. Like, they were just like, yeah, no, he disappeared on us. Like, wouldn't you be worried? Wouldn't you. Wouldn't you care? Like, you know? And then they show this on tv, and it's like, it would have made sense for someone to catch. I mean, at least Darcy or something. Or the intern whose name I can't remember because I don't know why they added him. Because there's enough characters, and.
01:24:00
Case
Darcy needed a man to talk to other. Like, who else was she going to talk to? Certainly not Jane.
01:24:05
Sam
Not Jane.
01:24:06
Case
I.
01:24:06
Sam
She's busy trying to date or find Thor.
01:24:10
Case
Again, let me be clear when I say that this movie might not pass the Bechtel test. I'm actually thinking about it, and I didn't do a rewatch for this app recording, but I am thinking about the movie and trying to recall. To be clear, Darcy talks to Jane a lot, but a lot of it is about her relationships, or it's about the bad guy, which still is failing the Bechdel test.
01:24:36
Sam
Yeah. And I don't even think. I think even when they're there, I mean, like, I guess, like, Siv and her, like, civil Civ and Jane may say a couple of things to each other, but.
01:24:48
Case
But it's mostly about Thor.
01:24:50
Sam
Yeah. And also, I'm pretty sure that the one scene where they don't really talk about him, it's, like, really just a few seconds, because she says, I'm not hungry. And then Siv knocks out a bunch of people, and she's like, good, follow me. And then she follows her, and then she hands her over to Thor. So it's like, literally seconds of them not discussing anything, because it's literally her just coming into the room and being like. So, basically, Jane says to a guard, I'm not hungry. And then Siv comes in, beats them up, and then goes, good. Follow me. That's it. That's. That's, like, maybe the only lines where they're not talking about Thor, where there might not be two women talking about Thor, because even Freya and Jane, when they talk about Thor.
01:25:40
Case
Yeah, man. Yeah. Like, I'm sure that it probably technically qualifies, but it is a movie that I'm having a hard time thinking of. Any scene where it would. Not that it couldn't. And that's the wild thing. It's just, you know, it was still not a terrible movie, but it was one of the worst Marvel movies at the time. And while I think that there is stuff to, like in it, like, we just talked about Selvig's, like, whole asylum bit, I find it really funny when he's, like, running around naked like that. That's charming.
01:26:19
Case
Like.
01:26:23
Sam
He'S a good actor and he sells it, like, you know, for sure. I mean, he really, truly believes, like, this is craziness. People are not believing him, but he's right.
01:26:33
Case
Yeah. Right. Which I. Yeah. So it's just a movie that was like, well, we are contractually obliged to carry on with, like, the group from the first movie, but we don't. We don't want to do that. We just want to do. You know, I say that it's like, it needs to stop being Lord of the Rings, and frankly, it needs to be that. It needs to be the silmarillion. Like, it needs to be that level of epic over the humans living in the world of crazy, epic stuff. And that's the thing that this movie is just kind of should have been a little bit more of lean into just how big and huge and grandiose Thor is and make the world seem huge. And not just, I say, the quarry world that they seem to just, like, travel to exclusively.
01:27:25
Sam
They love that. It's a very cheap set, I think. I think that might be why.
01:27:32
Case
Yeah. So, yeah, I was pretty proud of the pitches. It's fascinating looking at this early episode, which is definitely a different energy than some of the other ones, where I would say it's roughly two thirds of the episode, is us discussing pitches, and it's really way more of the time of us treating it as a game, which it still is, but I used to actively call doing an episode playing because it was us just really spitballing and going back and forth and really riffing for a while. We haven't been able to do that as much, in part because we all just need to know the movie really well to exist in that space, and we need to keep it organized with guests who aren't necessarily as familiar with the format. This is Jeff's 6th appearance, and it's the 12th episode.
01:28:26
Sam
Right.
01:28:29
Case
I think he was the number one guest at this point, and he. And then Ben and Addie are going to compete. So I guess technically Addie, because Ben at this point, hadn't done an episode solo yet. So Addie and Jeff are competing for most times on the show, and they're intimately familiar, because, again, it's like episode twelve, and I've had four guests or four groups of guests at this point.
01:28:56
Sam
Right. Jeff King of the early guests.
01:29:02
Case
Yep. And again, the voice of the podcast, because he does the intro and outro. Yeah. So, like I said, I was pretty happy with this episode. It's quick, and like I said, it comes out swinging. There isn't, like, the preamble that would normally come. And I can hear some audio quality issues when I listen to it, but it's just. It's fine. Clearly, it's an early episode of the show.
01:29:35
Sam
Yeah. But it's good both of you. You know, you're good friends, so that does help. But you both gel really well. And I think the. The pitches are nice because they're very collaborative. And, yeah, I actually think that any of the pitches that were in there would have made this movie better.
01:29:58
Case
Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like that kind of covers our big ticket items for this episode.
01:30:05
Sam
Yep.
01:30:06
Case
So a little bit of housekeeping for those of us keeping track, this episode is going to be dropping right after our episode on King Arthur, which is a fun episode, discussing a very mid movie. I was shocked when revisiting it that I was like, it's not great, right? And then it's like, oh, it's. It's so medium, I can barely recall. And then the next full episode of another past coming out is a fifth episode. So it will be an episode that, of course, is a movie that overcame adversity. And this one's a little bit of a stretch to say that it overcame adversity because it was a box office bomb and had outraged people. Because we're talking about a John Waters movie. We're talking about a dirty shame.
01:31:00
Case
So that is an exciting one because we've got Wes Johnson, who is actually in the movie, joining us for that.
01:31:06
Sam
That was great.
01:31:07
Case
Awesome. He's a very prolific voice actor, so he pulls out voices like crazy while we're recording. And so he's just a delight to have on and just a wonderful person that I'm glad I've made contact with. Meanwhile, for app. App episodes, so of. Let's see. So previously we did Ninja Turtles three, which was a really fun episode, and that was with Adi. And next up on app, we're gonna be looking at Zoolander two, which. Man, that was such a weird early episode pick, but Ben was, like, dead set. He was like, yeah, we can make a better movie than this. And I was like, I don't know if we can, man. The first Zoolander was, like, pretty much exactly what it needed to be. And doesn't need a sequel. And I think we get into some really good discussion points.
01:32:06
Case
It made me think very critically about Zoolander two, which is not a sentence that most people have ever said.
01:32:14
Sam
No. I'm actually very much looking forward to listening to this episode and then rewatching Zoolander too, which I haven't seen in years, because I feel like, you know, still open my eyes to something because I've never thought about that movie critically at all.
01:32:31
Case
I might have to do a rewatch for this one because this is a movie that I cannot recall very well. It is one that I remember thinking was better than I expected, but I don't remember where that bar actually landed.
01:32:45
Sam
Listen, I'm going to say this. I think the Zoolander films were fever dreams, and that's. Honestly, I remember them like fever dreams. I'm not sure where one begins and the other ends, to be honest with you. I know I did see them both. I just don't remember them. Blue steel. That's it. That's all I remember.
01:33:08
Case
That's fair. I will say that I feel that the first Zoolander was very much a moment that hit very well and had some great performances in there. And the second one, I think is fine, but I think it has less to say. And we'll talk about that next time. So we'll talk to you all then.
01:33:25
Case
Yeah.
01:33:27
Case
In the meantime, where can people find you and follow you, Sam?
01:33:31
Sam
You can find me on the discord if I remember that it exists. And here, of course, whenever we drop this podcast. And other than that, I will be too busy watching Zoolander one and Zoolander two to answer any communications from the outside world. So if you have any complaints about what I said, you can find case at.
01:33:54
Case
Well, you can find me on the discord like you said, which you can find links@certainpov.com otherwise, you can find me on most of the platformsacan except for instagram, where I am still going by my aims screen name, which I'm holding onto for dear life, and that is quetzalcoatl five, because I wanted something hard to spell and pretentious and. Yeah, yeah. So find me there. Yeah. Otherwise, you know, if you enjoyed this show, pass it on. I got it right.
01:34:35
Sam
I thought you're gonna say, stay scruffy. My nerd hurts.
01:34:40
Case
Whiff it both ways.
01:34:42
Sam
Yeah, just do both.
01:34:48
Geoff
All right, Josue, let's go through our.
01:34:49
Case
New comic day stack.
01:34:50
Case
We have a lot to review.
01:34:52
Case
I know, maybe we've gone too far.
01:34:54
Geoff
Let's see. Marvel of course.
01:34:56
Case
PC. I got image. Dark horse, black mask.
01:35:00
Sam
Boom.
01:35:01
Case
Idw. Aftershock vault.
01:35:03
Geoff
Of course. Mad cave oni.
01:35:06
Case
Valiant scout, magma behemoth.
01:35:10
Geoff
Wow, that's a lot. Well, all we need now is a name for our show. We need a name for our show.
01:35:15
Case
About reviewing comic books every week. Something clever, but not too clever, like a pun. It's kind of cheesy.
01:35:24
Geoff
Yeah. Something that seems funny at first, but we might regret later on as an impulsive decision. A few dozen episodes in.
01:35:29
Case
Yeah, we'll think of something.
01:35:31
Geoff
Join Keith and Oswei for we have issues, a weekly show reviewing almost every new comic released each week, available on.
01:35:37
Case
Geek elite media and wherever you listen to your podcasts.
01:35:44
Sam
Can we do a clap for case?
01:35:46
Case
We do a clap for case. All right. One, two, three, and then clap. One, two, three. Hi, Sam.
01:35:59
Sam
Hi. Okay, sometimes when you're like, one, two, three, and clap, I almost like clap on the wife because I'm so trained. When you say one, two, three to clap, it makes a lot more sense. But there's more than just us, because, like, we're.
01:36:14
Case
Yes. I've got to tell them what I'm doing.
01:36:15
Sam
Yeah, but, like, since you're so used to doing it right, you still just do the one, two, three and then clap. Okay, ready? And I'm like, always, like. And I just kind of move forward to clap. And I'm like, oh, wait, no, that was the.
01:36:29
Case
That was the.
01:36:29
Case
This is.
01:36:30
Case
This is cases, like programming.
01:36:33
Sam
Programming. We have to get through the programming first.
01:36:38
Case
Oi, oi. Anyway, yeah. I feel. I feel good about this episode. It was. We'll talk about it.
01:36:49
Sam
Yeah.
01:36:51
Case
Cool. Cpov certainpov.com.