Episode 107 - World Without Superman with Keith Lehtinen

It's easy to focus on big stories like the final stand of a great hero, but it's also important to tell the tale of those that are left behind to pick up the pieces! From the "We Have Issues" podcast (not to mention our new sibling show, "Jukebox Vertigo"!), we are joined by Keith Lehtinen to discuss the "Funeral For A Friend" arc that followed the "Death of Superman"!

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Transcription

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00:00
Case
Yeah, like the. The Superboy or like, the adventures of Superman annual is the one where they establish that Superboy, like, can get an iv if he's unconscious because he's not actually invulnerable. He's just telekinetic. And it's like, okay, those are good details that show, like, they were, like, thinking about these things at the very beginning of it all. At the very beginning. Despite how thick the return of Superman trade paperback is, it's like, well, it's probably only like five issues of each at most. Like, they had to have the shit figured out already. But that's not what we're talking about today.

00:30
Keith Lehtinen
So let's.

00:55
Case
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm Keith Sagen, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Jay Mike Falson.

01:01
Jmike
You know, one day I'm really going to have a better intro for these things.

01:06
Case
Welcome back, everybody.

01:06
Jmike
Glad to have you. Well, it's never really creative.

01:09
Keith Lehtinen
I was like, I got to think.

01:10
Jmike
Of a more creative one next time.

01:12
Case
Well, it's okay to have an absence of creativity in this time of mourning that we are in right now, since we are still in the process of reconciling our feelings about the death of Superman. We experienced it in a bad animated movie and then in the comics and then in a really good animated movie. But now we are left to pick up the pieces of the shattered life and deal with a world without Superman and to discuss the issues that are contained in the trade paperback world without Superman. We have someone who has issues himself. From the we have issues podcast, we've got Keith.

01:48
Keith Lehtinen
Hey, guys. Glad to be here. I will point out that case, we've also discussed the Death of Superman in a terrible live action movie as well as a four hour remake of that terrible live action movie. Just making that clear.

02:03
Case
That's true. If we want to go far enough back, we can go. So, weirdly, we still haven't done an episode on man of Steel, but we have done Batman Superman or Batman v Superman, I should say. And we've done Justice League. And so, of course, were first introduced to you doing the Justice League Snyder. Cut.

02:21
Keith Lehtinen
Exactly. Yeah. But, yeah, I'll be honest, I haven't read these books in years, in a very long time. And it was kind of cool to go back.

02:31
Case
Yeah. So we're talking about. It's almost interesting that DC even bothered to do this. So after the death of Superman, they had several issues. And there's a lot of Superman books at this time. We've talked about this before. There's technically five, although I think one launches with the return of Superman. So I guess it's four at this point. But that's still four books that were just like straight up crossing over every single month. You basically needed to be reading all four books to understand what was going on in any of them. Especially when big things happened. Like, say your main character dies. It's like two issues for each book, plus then a couple side stories that were included in this trade.

03:11
Case
But it's really interesting that DC even bothered to be like, all right, yeah, we're going to have an issue where it's just like, oh, shit, Metropolis is fucked up. Let's deal with collateral damage. And, oh, shit, the justice leaguers are going to come together and read Christmas cards that were sent to Superman. And all this stuff. It's like a wild set of events when you really stop to think about it. But it gets completely subsumed in terms of the zeitgeist by, obviously, the big fight with doomsday that kills him. And then immediately following this, we get the return of Superman, like the reign of the Superman, like the four imposters that show up right after this. And honestly, you could skip this and be fine in terms of the big beats. You get it. We all get it, right?

03:55
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

03:56
Case
There's even like a whole snatch them away and then return them to the grave kind of story that.

04:01
Keith Lehtinen
It's a filler episode. Yeah, exactly.

04:05
Case
But it's interesting Filler and it's character filler. It's really interesting having time with Lana and Lois, hugging each other and dealing with the fact that they're both experiencing the grief of Clark's loss. So that's really cool, them kind of dealing with, do we talk about the secret identity of Superman to the larger world. That's cool. I like some time being spent with Supergirl, which is not what we would really be getting that much at this point in time. Prior to this, really. Supergirl has always been like the main other member of the Superman family. Now, this is the weird Supergirl.

04:42
Keith Lehtinen
This is Matrix, I was going to say, not the Supergirl I would have chosen.

04:47
Case
Right.

04:47
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

04:49
Case
It's a weird era for this character, but there's certainly a period where it's like, okay, Superman's gone, so Supergirl has to pick up the pieces. That's classic Superman story stuff like going back to not just imagine. That's the Stan Lee thing, the imaginary story where Luther kills Superman and Supergirl then flies in and has to take over for him. So there's definitely classic beats going on here. So much so that the issue of action comics that focuses on Supergirl is a direct homage to action comics number one. Yeah, on the COVID Well, on the COVID and actually in the events, because she chases down a car, it actually matches up fairly well in that regard.

05:32
Case
But so we're going to kind of talk through issue by issue because I think each one is trying to do, like, okay, here's all the aftermath pieces before we get to the next story. And I think there's a lot of interesting things going on with it all. So why don't we pick up with Adventures of Superman 498, which is the immediate follow up to Superman dead? And that is, like, literally them trying to figure out, like, what are we going to do with the body? Can they even pick up doomsday? Can they do all these things? Yeah. So there's a lot of emotion going on for the characters in this all, like, Superman is dead. I do appreciate very much them being like, is doomsday dead, too?

06:07
Case
There's a lot of fear about that one because we know that they died together in this fight. But as far as they know, it's like, wait, that thing just killed a lot of people, and it is lying there, but is it done? And there's a few points where it kind of moves.

06:22
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. I liked how much of this issue was literally them trying to bring him back, finding ways to bring him back.

06:28
Jmike
Yeah.

06:28
Keith Lehtinen
And it's basically like a, what, 24 page CPR session is basically this whole issue, pretty much. Which I was like, this is great. They're just like, can we do this? And it kind of addresses a lot of questions people have about Superman, which I thought was kind of, you know, we can't inject anything because we can't break a skin. I'm like, that's true. It reminds me of the post, I want to say, post civil war story with Luke Cage where he had a heart attack and they couldn't get in there and save him because his skin's impenetrable. And I was like, yeah, that's really cool. So I had forgotten this whole issue had happened, by the way. I did read it at one point, but I completely forgot this happened until we reread it.

07:11
Case
Yeah, I mean, it's such a, you know, it's. It's guardian trying to give CPR to Superman and being like, oh, man, I can't even tell if I'm inflating his lungs at all because they're so strong. And then them coming up with increasingly stronger things to try to shock him back to life, to shock his heart back up and how it just keeps on not working because nothing's strong enough. And then eventually they're like, all right, well, we've belted the paddles bring in, let's get a force field belt on, and let's set up a supercharged reactor and go.

07:41
Jmike
This kind of reminds me of, I don't know if you remember, Superman returns after he falls from the stratosphere. They take him to the ER and they're like, trying to stick him with the needles and trying to resuscitate him and it blows out the entire hospital's fuses. I was like, oh, that's where they got it from.

07:58
Keith Lehtinen
Also, one thing that, because I'm not an avid Superman reader, I do read some Superman books pretty fervently. But this era, I wasn't really into Superman. I forgot how gigantic of a supporting cast this character.

08:12
Case
Yeah.

08:13
Keith Lehtinen
Like, I'm like, who? And I'm like, oh, yeah, gangbuster. I remember gangbuster vaguely.

08:20
Jmike
That guy was.

08:22
Keith Lehtinen
And I know Guardian, obviously. But then all these guys, and I'm like, who is? And I had to keep Wikipedia names because I'm like, who's this? And I kept having to remind myself of some of them. And I was like, oh, yeah. And, yeah, that was very interesting. Yeah. This issue specifically drops you in the deep end with that cast.

08:43
Case
And this whole book in general feels very much of, here's the soap opera of Superman's supporting cast in a world without, like, how are they all responding to his lack? And so it's good that we get this reminder of it all. I mean, we talked about how the comics, in a way, feel like a victory lap of like, here's all the cool things that they had done with the character post man of like, they had introduced a much more robust supporting cast. There's a lot of characters out there. There's a lot of things that are out there. They've managed to incorporate the Jack Kirby stuff into the modern era stuff. We've got a universe that these characters are living in and why Superman's important.

09:21
Case
And then with his absence here now, it's like, all right, now, how do they see the world now that he's gone? Because not surprisingly, the big fight where we're mostly focused on Superman and his inner monologue, we're seeing the world from his perspective. And now it's everyone else kind of looking at this. I had this thought when I was reading this issue, particularly when Gangbuster shows up, but it's not just about him. It's almost like they had filled up Superman's world with the B list version or knockoff versions of everything else out there. Yeah, Guardian is kind of like Captain America. Gangbuster is a Batman type vigilante. The world that he's existing in, he's so robust and so important that everything else is just an orbit around them.

10:05
Case
And so in order for them to really take the spotlight, they need to not be part of the Superman world. And that's why Guardian has gone off and been more of his own character in more recent years, especially, like, when Grant Morrison decided to take the character and have him be his own thing, and thus is more of its own unique property, versus here it's like, oh, yeah, well, this is the Captain America for Superman City, and this is the Batman for Superman City. And then here are the Morlocks for Superman City, and here's all these lesser versions.

10:33
Keith Lehtinen
I do not recollect those Morlocks at all. And I was like, what are the Morlocks doing here?

10:38
Case
Right, exactly. Yeah. And it's exactly that being written by Louise Simonson.

10:42
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, we'll come back to that.

10:44
Case
I like some of the details in here. So, for one thing, J Mike, you might recall this, that when we did the radio show, were talking about the character of Inspector Henderson, and we couldn't remember how involved he was in the actual comics. And he's all over this book, which I thought was nice. I remembered him existing, but I did not remember that it was that same character. And that's cool. To establish the police that he's associated with, even if it's not quite as important a character as, like, a Jim Gordon. Like, oh, yeah. In a world where you're fighting crime, got to deal with them at times. I like that we start to establish in this issue a connection between Dan Turpin and.

11:24
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, yeah.

11:26
Case
When he finds her really fucked up body.

11:28
Keith Lehtinen
Right.

11:29
Jmike
I really like the fact that Dan Turpin, in these comic series that we're reading about, he's such a badass. Yeah, he takes no crap from anybody. He's such a badass.

11:42
Case
My one regret is that the redesign that occurred in the animated series where they decided to just make him Jack Kirby, hasn't happened yet. So he's got a bowler and a receding hairline, but still wonderful character. I love this idea of a human that's just like, yeah, I don't care about superpowers. Take you down.

12:03
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. That moment when he found Supergirl. I can't express to you because case knows this. My favorite character in the super mythos is Supergirl. I'm a big Kara fan. And so when he found that body, I didn't remember because I haven't read death of Superman recently like you guys have. So I was like, wait, who was this? I don't remember. And then I was like, this sense of dread just dropping over me as I realized, oh, it's that era of. But, yeah. So that moment was very interesting.

12:35
Case
But, yeah, I did, like, may I guess that the moment hit you when Lex Luthor shows up to pick her.

12:40
Keith Lehtinen
Up when I was like, who's this guy? Oh, no, it's Lex. Oh, no, it's.

12:46
Jmike
Also, also, I do love the fact that all the Lex iterations in all these books here we're reading, his hair got so much more tremendous on each iteration.

12:57
Case
Every issue, it's just getting bigger and bigger.

12:59
Jmike
It's more lush, it's curly. And I was like, oh, my gosh, he's doing his hair.

13:03
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, great stuff. This issue also, I think, has the best page of the entire crossover, which is. It's not going to be a surprise. It's mom pa kent sitting there watching the tv. That one page.

13:15
Case
Yeah. Anyone who is listening to this episode and hasn't looked at the episode art that's already picked out as being the central image for the episode art of the two of them hugging each other.

13:25
Keith Lehtinen
See, I didn't even know. That's how awesome.

13:28
Case
Well, the art's not made yet. I already took the image to be for it because it's so perfect. And also, this is where having Pa Kent is helpful from a story perspective. Like having him be still alive and having Ma Kent be still alive, like, having both parents there so they can both be suffering in different ways is really good. And I love the shock because, of course, they're shocked that their invulnerable son is dead. Who wouldn't be? They were like, yeah, he can do anything and he can't be hurt. He's going to be okay. And they watched him get beaten to death on live television.

14:08
Keith Lehtinen
They're honestly, as we get into the rest of this, they're one of two hearts of the story for me, in this entire thing, the other one being another character, we've seen this issue, which is Babowski. What? I was like, who? And then I looked it up. I'm like, okay, I'm remembering this kind of. And then as I read through the whole crossover. I was like, I really like this character for some reason.

14:34
Case
Yeah, it's really nice having different perspectives from all over the place. And, yeah, it's just this guy who has a bar. Like, that's the thing about the Superman mythos, that Superman being the prototype for comic book superheroes, he can exist completely independent of every other super thing because it's just about. Yeah. Like, the world is so fucking weird because Superman's here and it doesn't require other crossovers and other superheroes and all that. And it's nice to be reminded of just how important the mundane people living in this world are and how this character has touched them and made them better people. Because you get the impression that Bibbo would probably be a bit rougher around the edges at points. He tries to beat people up, and then it's like, oh, no, Superman wouldn't want me to do that.

15:28
Case
It's nice getting those moments of, like, yeah, Superman made an impact and made people better around.

15:33
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, yeah. No, if I took away anything from it's that I really liked that character and the way he developed throughout this. That was probably my favorite.

15:44
Case
Yeah. We get back at Lex Corp or, like, Lex Tower with him with a Supergirl convincing her to shapeshift back, and apparently she still has bruises and he is immediately, like, pouring wine for them because it's just like, all right.

15:57
Keith Lehtinen
Yep.

15:57
Case
All right, well, Superman's dead, and my hot chick is back. Okay, cool. Oh, you've got. Huh? Oh, you really took it. Side note, she took one fucking hit.

16:06
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

16:12
Case
You don't need to go and find the issue. If you watch my Matrix video on the Superman analog, I have that one panel of her just getting decked by a doomsday. And that's it. She's just done, and she turns into.

16:22
Keith Lehtinen
A pile of goose because she's a garbage supergirl. Don't get me started.

16:27
Jmike
Did they mention, like, the other heroes that met Doomsday first?

16:31
Keith Lehtinen
They don't in this, but I was actually telling case because I read on the DC Universe Infinite app, they actually recommended Justice League of America number 70 to be the first thing I read. And it's ancillary story for a funeral for a friend, but it's not, like, numbered like the rest. And it is literally the Justice League's reaction and what happened to them. So, like, blue Beetle is in critical condition with swelling on his brain, and ice is very heavily featured throughout the entire issue. Just crying the entire time, which is crazy. I got booster gold with his entire costume ripped off looking like Khazar from the savage land. But the best part of the issue, and I recommend reading it because my boy guy Gardner is the Green Lantern in the Justice League at this point. And he's just like, big deal.

17:21
Keith Lehtinen
Superman died, whatever. And everybody's like, screw you, man. But at the end, they all put on the Superman armbands, like the honorary armbands with his symbol on it. And you see Guy Gardner using his ring to take one when no one's looking. It was really cool moment. I like, oh, that's good.

17:40
Case
Yeah, I'll have to check out that issue because I've never read that immediate issue. We were even joking when were reading the comics. It's like, can you imagine if you only were reading Justice League and no other book?

17:50
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. Because that's when the Justice League falls apart, I want to say. And then I want to say they reform with a new lineup because they got so wrecked by this fight that's when they rebooted. So it's literally the last issue of that.

18:09
Case
So then we deal with different people wanting to do different things with everyone's bodies, including Cadmus showing up to try to take away doomsday.

18:18
Keith Lehtinen
Cadmus.

18:21
Case
I like that they note that they have antigrav discs underneath doomsday to try to make them levitate, which just adds to the super science. But specifically, like, Kirby esque super science. Like, those antigrav discs are, like, right out of everything he was doing over there, which is just great. And for you guys, might not. So they remind us of who the director of Cadmus is at the time, which is Paul Westfield, who is. He's just another one of these bureaucrat bad guys. And so I have complicated feelings about Paul Westfield because I think he's very important to a character. And then that importance is completely ripped away by what could have been a good story, but instead, it was a poorly written story.

19:04
Case
And that is that Paul Westfield, in his capacity as head of Cadmus, uses his DNA as the basis for the clone that they try to make, that they then modify to have kryptonian style features, which is Superboy. And then years later, Jeff Johns, apparently having never fucking read any of Superboy, was like, well, what if he was just Lex Luthor and son? And, like, that could have been fine, but they kept on being like, you know how you never knew who your genetic donor was? And it's like, no, we've known for a long fucking time. It's like, no, that was never even a mystery. It's like it's resolved within the first year of the Superboy book. In fact, I have the annual sitting behind me right now.

19:40
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, I vividly remember that retcon, actually. It's like, yeah, that happened. What? No, it didn't.

19:47
Case
And it could have been fine. I think it's great on young justice. I think that works really well. But they had done a lot with the whole thing. There's a whole thing about how because Superboy was technically human, because no one was allowed to be kryptonian at the time, he was someone you could clone so you could do stuff with his DNA and it was really interesting. And instead they got rid of it. I'm going to vent about that at another time because we're not even talking about Superboy at this point. But Paul Westfield is a douchebag. I forget if he's being manipulated by Daphne Donovan at this point, but he is definitely replacing Daphne Donovan in terms of being like the bad scientist character. Even though he's a suit, controlling it. He's just, he's just a shitty dude.

20:27
Case
And he wants everyone's DNA so that he know, run his DNA farm and make cool copies. And everyone's like, hey, no, don't fucking touch that guy. And it gets violent real fast. Like, you would think they would just do what they do later in this book and never even bother trying to have a confrontation about Superman, right? Just be like, no, we're going to take the biological waste and you deal with the hero and that's fine. But he gets to be sexist and homophobic, I think, to Maggie Swayzer and then Turpin, who is just awesome and a true ally, just, you want my badge number? Here's my name. It's Turpin.

21:11
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, I like that. It does set up this whole arc, obviously. Literally everything that's going to happen is set up in this issue. So this issue did a really good job because that was its know, set up. What we're going to talk about during the funeral or the death of the funeral for a friend. Part of the, all the plots are.

21:30
Case
Set up in this issue even though really all they're doing is just trying to resuscitate Superman. And the end of the issue is they fail so effectively. This is all just the minutes after. You know, I love that we have Bibbo show up with email, Hamilton with the power converter that then one of the Lex drones are going to use. And they're going to have the force field belts that they've established have been around for a while because Superman was using those when he lost his powers in the cris of the crimson kryptonite. And we've got, like, the Lex guards that were shooting them. There's only one still functional, so it's going to use its laser blasters. I don't understand why it's laser blasters and not just, like, plug it into the battery.

22:07
Keith Lehtinen
That's what I thought they were going to do.

22:09
Case
Isn't there some loss of energy somewhere? But I thought it was clever. It's like, okay, anything strong enough to shock Superman is going to fuck you up. So, like, wear a force field up.

22:17
Keith Lehtinen
Cool.

22:17
Case
All right, let's have weird super science.

22:19
Keith Lehtinen
Cool.

22:20
Case
Let's have Kat Grant reporting on it live because she's the tv reporter at this time. The late Bronze age changes to Superman haven't happened in this setting. So Kat Grant is doing tv, but, like, lois is know, I love all the thoughts about people trying to be like, man. We're also upset about, like, just reminding us that was the status quo for a really long time. And even if the man of Steel era of Superman was trying to make him more like a traditional superhero Marvel type character, with John Byrne's revisions and so forth, he still has this rich world. He has so many people who are tied into it all, and it's kind of just nice to deal with it.

23:05
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. And like I said, in addition to, like I said, setting up everything that's going to happen, I mentioned I didn't know who half these characters were, but by the end of this issue, I didn't have to look anyone up because they'd already told me. Everybody who's going to be involved, I know every character. Okay, cool. Now, the rest time I'm reading, I'm not having to go to Wikipedia because you've already told me who's important to this story, which I thought was really well done.

23:27
Case
Yeah. So next up, we are moving on to action comics 685, which is the, it's the big supergirl issue, and it kind of picks up exactly where were looking at before in terms of like, well, there's a standoff about Superman's body. They did not succeed in resuscitating him. We open with a page, though, that I do have a question, which is they have a picture of Superman lying dead and newspapers flying over him that say, doomsday massacre.

23:52
Keith Lehtinen
Don't get me started.

23:54
Case
And I'm not clear. It was like 12 hours between doomsday showing up and everyone being dead. I don't know how they get those newspapers out there so fast.

24:03
Keith Lehtinen
The only way it could have been worse if it was the actual newspaper he was on. Like, if there was a picture of the paper on the paper.

24:13
Case
I would love that even more, though, because then you could keep zooming in on him.

24:17
Keith Lehtinen
But, yeah, I thought that was funny, too.

24:20
Case
Yeah. So they set up the news of him being dead. We see the standoff between everyone. Maggie Sawyer is wearing a different outfit now, but whatever.

24:28
Keith Lehtinen
There were lots of little continuity errors that bother me. I think the first one happens in this issue where in the first issue, Jimmy says, I'll walk you home. And Lois is like, I would like that. And in this issue, he's like, need a lift, Lois? She goes, thanks, Jimmy, but I can find my own way. And I'm like. And it's important because what she does afterwards, she does do by herself. And I'm just kind of like, I know DC had a notorious thing where they didn't quite have a continuity editor to make sure things are quite just right with things like this. And it's minor things, but stuff I notice. And so I know they do that now. They're a lot better know catching these things now. So I just thought that one jumped out at me kind of weird.

25:11
Keith Lehtinen
I was like, wait, didn't he walk her home? And I'm like, is this the same day? What?

25:17
Case
Like, we literally know the person who's in charge of making sure of those things. Paul Kaminsky was on another path.

25:22
Keith Lehtinen
Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. I like the big focus on continuity editing and making sure things match up. It's really cool because if you read everything like I do, it makes it a lot.

25:35
Case
Yeah. I really enjoy the way Lex Luthor plays this all him sending in Supergirl and him playing nice with Supergirl as a way of getting public opinion for him, because he understands that, for one thing, he's not Lex Luthor senior officially, and he needs to sell that. He is like, friend to everyone. He's the best guy. He's cool. There's a bit of a Richard Branson going on with him, which is, yeah, we get it, but he's trying to play himself up as the ultimate altruist. Like, yeah, no, I'm a billionaire. I'm a good billionaire. Right? And I like that Perry White has no time for his bullshit. Like, Perry White catches the news report and it's just like, he sees right through that. He's, like, setting himself up. He doesn't see through that. He is literally Lex Luthor senior, but in a clone body.

26:24
Case
But he is able to observe, like, no, I know the moves you're doing. Right? Like, it's nice that there are people who are not fooled by him. Even though Superman kind of was prior to know. We get more Lois being super upset about everything because she can't even talk to people. And I like that detail. Like when she finally talks to Monpa Kent later on, she's like, I haven't been able to say what I am grieving about. I've just had to sort of nod when people are like, are you upset because Clark is missing? So I really like that kind of thing that she's going through.

26:56
Keith Lehtinen
She has to bury it and she has to pretend she's not as upset as she is. And that's a really interesting line to walk because she's still going to be upset because she knew Superman. People are going to expect her to be upset, but they're not going to expect her to be that upset. And I think that's cool. She does do a really good job of walking that line and it takes a lot of mental toughness. That's really cool.

27:16
Case
Right? And then we get Lana calling into the Kents, which is just a nice detail there. I really love the tradition of post crisis lana Lang knowing that Clark Kent is Superman.

27:28
Keith Lehtinen
Very much so.

27:29
Case
I think that was a really good decision that was carried into the animated series and has been done sometimes in other things since then. But it was just really good here being like, yeah, no, were not meant to be. But still the most special person at that point in my life and still an amazing person that I can't believe I got to know from.

27:51
Keith Lehtinen
Do think that's. I like that she called them right away. Obviously, we'll find out why Lois didn't call them right away. We deal with that. But I do like that someone called them right away. And I think she's a great choice to be the one to do it because she's the only other person who knows. Really.

28:05
Case
Yeah. We see the world reacting to Superman's death. There's one spot that caught me a little bit weird. When Supergirl is like, or like, Luther's. Like, Supergirl will save the day. And we cut to, I don't know where, but it says, translated from the Arabic, where it's like just how this unveiled young woman can be expected to carry on Superman's stead remains unexplained. And I'm like, ooh, I don't know how that was written.

28:31
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. I mean, that's probably, like, yeah, I have nothing. I got nothing to defend that I.

28:38
Case
Don'T even know if it's technically wrong. It just feels wrong.

28:42
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, I think that's the. Because that seems to be the commentator at least, like, not Lex talking. I don't think it's right.

28:52
Case
No, it's the news reporting on the.

28:55
Keith Lehtinen
When I first read it, I thought there was them mistranslating Lex. And I was like, oh, that's brutal. But then I was like, oh, okay, wait, it's him. And then, I mean, he could be, for all we know, an extremist reporter. You know what I mean? Like, the kind of ones we have. I don't want to get political, but you know what?

29:14
Case
Yeah.

29:15
Keith Lehtinen
So maybe that's it. I don't. So.

29:18
Case
Yeah, it just feels, like, weird.

29:19
Keith Lehtinen
It does feel weird, though.

29:20
Case
Cut in there. It just stood out. That's all I'm going to say is it stood out. We get Lex visiting the corpse of Doomsday and breaking a chair over him. And in his head, he's like, he was mine to kill. He was mine. Everyone's like, no, Lex Jr. You can't be so upset. Don't let your anger consume you because this thing killed Superman. It's like, but he was mine to kill.

29:47
Keith Lehtinen
I love it.

29:48
Case
It's a really interesting line that they're walking in terms of Lex Jr. Of like, how keeping this character going, who was so desperately putting on this facade of being a good guy. And we know as an audience that he is.

30:00
Keith Lehtinen
And it is interesting. And it's the kind of thing that we do see Lex do quite a bit. And we see people like, you know, constantly somehow redeeming himself and the public liking. You know, they both have killed many people. And then they get elected president or something. You know what I mean? I think that's funny. But obviously this one's a creative way to do it because. Oh, I'm not that Lex. I'm the son. And I'm making up for all the mistakes. My father.

30:27
Case
Yeah. We get Lois returning to Clark's apartment because at this point, they were engaged. And I do like, one of the details of this is that they were right at that period. They were planning the wedding. You feel like they had this wonderful story that got cut off by doomsday. Like, doomsday deliberately or not deliberately, but interceded in their lives and shattered it in ways that don't follow the conventions of what they had been planning for. So I love that element that she's trying to figure out even what feels comfortable. Like she's half moved into Clark's place and vice versa. Because that makes sense. My now wife, for the first two years that were dating we basically had full setups at each other's place because, like, she lived in New Jersey and I lived in the city.

31:17
Case
So some days it made more sense to stay at my place. And sometimes we just liked having her much more spacious apartment because it was in New Jersey. But I like that it calls out specifically stuff from the man of steel trade or from the man of steel miniseries. When she talks about the first time she came over she's explicitly referencing that issue where she shows up and where we first meet Lex Luthor where she is eyeing all of his photos and talking about his weights. It's calling back to being, if it was like, a movie, you would do like a flashback shot or something like that. Or maybe if it was a bad movie, you would do a flashback shot of it. But that's kind of what they're doing here.

31:55
Case
And I like that particularly because we just looked back at man of Steel recently or the man of Steel, the miniseries, the comic.

32:06
Keith Lehtinen
God, no.

32:10
Case
I guess the comic was the man of Steel.

32:11
Keith Lehtinen
Right?

32:13
Case
So that was cool. I like that Clark's apartment's always clean.

32:16
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, of course it would be.

32:18
Case
It doesn't take him any time.

32:20
Keith Lehtinen
I like the immediate next page where we actually see the criminal element reacting. I like it because toy man is like, yeah, he messed with me, but I'm not going to celebrate losing him. That's really sad. And then immediately, parasites like, fuck Superman. I was like, yes, that is my favorite.

32:42
Case
Yeah. The only thing sad is I'm not going to be able to drink his sweet soup juice.

32:46
Keith Lehtinen
That was really great.

32:48
Case
And then different criminals are, like, upset because it's like, hey, Superman. Sweet, my grandma.

32:55
Keith Lehtinen
This actually reminded me of something that I think is really interesting because it's toy man. And I was looking at him, I'm like, wait, what year was this? And I had to look it up. It's 92. And I'm like, man, four years, two years. How much the DC brand changes after this. And it's because of this event. If you really look at it because of the way it's sold, because of the impact it had. DC started taking these really risky, dark chances on a lot of characters and toy man becomes unrecognizable in a couple of years, basically.

33:27
Case
Yeah. Well, and we saw one of the characters who's involved in that story is still alive at this point, which is cat grandson.

33:34
Keith Lehtinen
Exactly.

33:35
Case
Yeah.

33:35
Keith Lehtinen
So that was kind of like. I was like, what was this?

33:38
Case
Like, 86?

33:38
Keith Lehtinen
And then I went, I'm like, 92. This is the nirvana. Impacted the entire culture, changed everything. Just saying. But no, I really liked that. I do like parasite. Just being, like, not giving a crap. That's very funny to me.

33:54
Case
Who cares?

33:55
Keith Lehtinen
He's dead.

33:58
Case
Yeah. Then we get a sequence of supergirls stopping some robbers, which is perfectly fine to be like, yeah, no. No robber can really deal with someone who's as powerful as she is. We get reminded that she is telekinetic and is able to stop bullets from even hitting her and then redirect them. Goddamn. Her powers are just fucking the invisible woman. Plus, like, a little bit of shapeshift. It's Martian Manhunter is what it really is.

34:19
Keith Lehtinen
All over the place. Yeah.

34:22
Jmike
Well, I thought Martian Manhunter was with Bloodwind. Bloodwind, yes.

34:26
Case
He's bloodwind currently. Oh, yeah. J mix.

34:30
Keith Lehtinen
So sorry.

34:30
Case
Sorry. I told you he was bloodwind. He's also Supergirl at this.

34:35
Jmike
He can't keep getting away with this.

34:39
Case
And then when Supergirl flies away, having solved the crime or stopped the criminals, we get Bibbo looking up and, like, that red streak. Nah, he's gone.

34:48
Keith Lehtinen
I actually like that panel of him. The never again he's gone panel. That's a good face. I like that drawing a lot. Yeah.

34:55
Case
Bibbo is really dealing with it. He's in his feelings.

34:59
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. So much so that the issue actually wraps up with him, which I thought was a really cool touch. And that's kind of, like, right about now, is when I started being like, do I care about this character? All of a sudden, I was like, what's happening? And I really liked that issue. And Bibbo specifically closing down his bar just to pray. Yeah. Very cool. Which.

35:23
Case
Very tangible. It makes a lot of sense. Like, you have a person that you looked up to who was taken from you, and then you just don't understand it. You have to grapple with it.

35:32
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

35:33
Case
So, next up in the trade, I think this is the first of the short stories that are in the Superman. What is it? Remembering legacy of Superman or the legacy of Superman. Yeah. And this is a vanishing point story by Dan Juergens, featuring the. Of Wave Rider, going back in time to the exact moment that Superman died and deciding that even though he really wants to save his friend, he can't. And I think it's interesting just to catch up on the. Oh, yeah, there's a lot of weird shit out there in the universe at this. Like, like the linear men, which is like this group of time cops that booster Gold's not a part of, but it's Dan Juergen. So they're all dealing with the same sort of ideas is going on there. Wave rider is from the millennium event.

36:17
Case
He's the one who comes back in time and reveals that eventually Monarch is going to take over everything and that it's supposed to be Captain Adam. But then editorial found out that everyone had figured it out and changed it to Hawk at the last minute.

36:32
Keith Lehtinen
I loved that series, Armageddon 2001. I actually was real big fan.

36:35
Case
That was it.

36:36
Keith Lehtinen
Sorry. And I was like, oh, this is going to be really. Oh.

36:38
Case
Millennium was the Manhunters event. Yeah, sorry.

36:41
Keith Lehtinen
And it was called Armageddon 2001 and came out in 1991, in case anybody wants to be nice and confused. But I really loved that series, small Tangent. And I was a big hawk and Dove fan, specifically the male female duo. I liked that. Hawk and Dove. And, man, that reveal was so lame. I got so upset and annoyed by. Yeah. But, yeah, I loved this because since I was a big fan of that, I was like, wave rider. I love wave rider. So, yeah, that was really cool surprise, actually.

37:09
Case
Yeah, and it's fun. Superman had become a pretty tied in character with the linear man, mostly because Dan Juergens, again, that's one of his little corners of the DCU that he has taken ownership of. Time is what he has taken ownership of. So it's kind of like it's night. Like Wave Rider, I forgot the name of the other character and I'm skimming through too fast to catch it. But it's just like him from a different timeline because of that. Matthew Ryder.

37:41
Keith Lehtinen
Yes, that sounds it.

37:45
Case
Like it's fun being like, all right, so what do time cobs do when big tragedy happens to people they know? And it's like, all right, well, we could save them now, but then we'd have to save them again and then again. And what are we even really doing here? And it's an argument for the status quo, which I get. It's the thing that superhero comics have to grapple with just in general. And when you get into time travel, you have to grapple with it even more so because it's like the same problem that the legion of superheroes always had where it's like, yeah, we know the moment that you die because we're 1000 years in the future.

38:14
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. And it makes it difficult in some ways. Yeah, definitely.

38:20
Case
But then we move on to Superman, the Man of Steel, issue 20, where we open up with some luscious locks. Lex Luthor.

38:29
Keith Lehtinen
It's glorious. This is where I want to jump in, because I was like, why do I love this book way more than the other two all of a sudden? And it's because I didn't realize it, but I should have known, because it's written by Louise Simonson, and Louise Simonson's pretty much one of my favorite writers of all time. And the art is done by John Bukdonova, who does not get the credit that the Simonsonsons do, but partnered with them quite a bit, especially on power pack. And later in the next arc, you guys are going to read, I'm assuming, with the creation of, like, I was like, wow, I really like this book. Why? I'm like, oh, it's because this is what I was reading when I was a kid. I was raised on the Simonsons. So, yeah, I love this.

39:16
Keith Lehtinen
But his hair is insane. I love it.

39:18
Case
It's so big. It's just so crazy big.

39:21
Keith Lehtinen
And he's got this pouty look in one of the shots. I think it's the second page. Yeah.

39:27
Case
Bugdanov loves, like, lips.

39:29
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. He's looking at Supergirl, and he's, like, pouting at her, and it's fantastic. I love it.

39:36
Case
Yeah. So they're trying to arrange the funeral. Meanwhile, we cut to the Kents, who are not even able to go to the funeral, just so.

39:44
Keith Lehtinen
Will. I'll just say it. For the rest of the show, the Simonson issues are the ones that stand out to me the most, because I'm like, wow, this is amazing. And again, it's because it's what I was raised on. But specifically, the character development in this one is really good.

39:58
Case
Yeah, we talked when we looked at the death that Louise's or Wheezy's run is most notable for a lot of the people on the ground, and some of it is particularly dealing with social issues. We're most likely to deal with characters who are poor and not in good fiscal status. All the stuff with the underground people, that's all her actually being cared about. What are the homeless like in Metropolis? What are the people who are down on their luck like in Metropolis? Not just the people living in fancy high rises or who are working at this hugely prestigious, like, even this issue where we're mostly looking at people like the funeral itself, it's all these bystanders and onlookers and dealing with their problems. We're not focused really on the Justice Leaguers walking in formation.

40:55
Case
We're focused on, like, the kid who was saved by Superman and dealing with know people who, everyone has a story in this. Like, why Superman matters to them or why he should have mattered and why they're a shitbag for not responding that way. Like, the one kid who's upset that his dad is no longer around, but his dad was, like, beating their mom.

41:17
Keith Lehtinen
And even in that big group shot of the, like, if you look at it, the crowd in the foreground is really the focus. They're not in the center, but they're significantly larger, a lot more detailed than the actual heroes. And I think that is reflective of what you're saying.

41:36
Case
I am curious if there are a bunch of DC writers or editorial in there. I don't know. I'm not saying there is, but I'm wondering, there's a lot of white guys with beards that are drawn in this panel that feel like this might be a lot of people working at DC.

41:50
Keith Lehtinen
I would assume so, yeah. I do like the simple fact that unless I missed him, and I'm just double checking as we're talking. Yeah, I love that Batman's not in the processional because he's doing something else, which we'll address later on. But that's so Batman. Yeah, I really like that. But I think disco wings.

42:10
Case
What a snapshot, by the way, for 1992 DC right there. Some of those characters you're like, yeah, no, of course. Like Green Lantern and Wonder woman. Those all make sense. But then it's like you got the old school Nightwing costume. You've got. Some characters are just like, fun additions, like the forever people. But then there's like, what is it? Wildebeest from the teen titans in the back there?

42:35
Keith Lehtinen
Geoforce with the big GF. I always forget they had that. I'm like, girlfriend? Like, yeah, but, yeah, but I like what you're saying. It deals with all the citizenry. And there's also a page with Lobo. And I'm just going to say that was definitely wheezy's idea. Let me just throw that in. Like, that sounds like something fun she would come up with. I'm not a big lobo fan, but, yeah, it was fun addition, I guess.

43:09
Case
Yeah. So we get more people who are just upset about Superman being dead. Like a reference. There's the one kid who's upset that or doesn't care that Superman's dead because Superman's the reason why their dad's not around. But the dad was the wife beater. But the little brother's really upset because the little brother is happy for the mom that she's not getting beat. Jesus Christ. And so he's being picked on by his older brother, and then another kid comes over, and it's like, Superman would want me to. Again, it's like, Superman is this positive impact on people, not just by saving their lives, but by inspiring them to better people. And this is like, a reminder, like, yeah.

43:44
Case
And this message is being conveyed to these little kids, and it's such a sweet moment where it's just like, hey, I know you're going through a rough time, and your brother's a douchebag. Do you want to hold my cat? It makes me feel better.

43:55
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, exactly. I like that Superman is bigger than a person.

43:59
Case
And then we have a terrorist who's about to bomb everyone, and Batman shows.

44:04
Keith Lehtinen
Up because Batman is like, someone's got to watch out for you while you mourn weak people. So I dig that. I thought that was pretty fun and really random. Yeah, I really feel like they're like, Batman wouldn't be in the processional. Well, what's he doing? Well, he's probably protecting them. Well, what if there's no threats? Well, we got to come up with a threat, and they're like, guy with a bomb.

44:32
Case
Right.

44:32
Keith Lehtinen
Very random. I love it.

44:34
Case
We get the Star Labs people looking down on it from above, and then we also get, likewise, the people in the underworld, like, looking up through the.

44:41
Keith Lehtinen
So, as I said, I didn't remember the Morlocks existed. Quote. So as soon as that panel happened, I'm like, what is happening? I was not prepared for this. It was the weirdest way to remember these characters existed. I was like, what?

44:58
Case
Just because that one panel, big line in this arc that involves them.

45:03
Keith Lehtinen
Right. Yeah. I was like, really interesting.

45:08
Case
Then we got the huckster, like, selling the Superman swag or merch, which I'm so curious about. I wonder if it's, like, weezy being mad at DC because when the death of Superman issue came out, there was a bagged version that had the armband that you could buy that was clearly, like a cash grab kind of thing that they were putting out there. It was, like, a little more expensive. And I was like, this will be the collector's thing. Like, buy it and don't open it, so don't read it. So you have to buy a second copy so you can actually read the issue. I feel like this is just a commentary on that.

45:38
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, they did that. Yeah, I remember that. And then it ties into that justice league issue I mentioned, because they all put the armbands on, and it's like, you want to be a hero? You're going to wear one of these armbands. $30, please. I do like this little dig. And part of me, again, the guy selling them, that design, that has to be based on a real person. I don't want to speculate on who.

46:02
Case
Right? Yeah.

46:05
Keith Lehtinen
But, yeah, another shot with my boy Bibo. Yeah.

46:10
Case
And Bibo is, like, ready to pop him one for trying to monetize Superman's death. But he has a sob story, too. His house was destroyed by doomsday. And he's trying to make some money right now because they have to figure out what they're going to do. And it's nice that Ben was like, I should deck you, but Superman wouldn't do that. Sorry, Superman wouldn't do that. So why don't you come work at my bar?

46:36
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. I really like that we get the.

46:38
Case
Big statue, which I'm curious, when the statue first shows up, because it's shown up in a lot of Superman material, like it's in whatever happened to the tomorrow. I knew that looked. And I'm pretty sure it was in the death of Superman, the imaginary story. So I'm not sure when it first shows up, but it's like, weirdly, it's like part of Superman lore that eventually there'll just be a statue of him downtown.

47:00
Keith Lehtinen
Well, see, here's the thing, though, because at the beginning of this issue, they mentioned the memorial statue that he commissioned, and Supergirl said she would carry it to the park for. So, like, I assume that's when that was. But did it appear before this? Because then that's.

47:17
Case
Oh, no, sorry. I meant that this version of this statue shows up here for the first time. Like, it didn't exist in post crisis. But I'm curious, when in the larger Superman comics did it first show up?

47:26
Keith Lehtinen
Gotcha. Okay.

47:27
Case
Ever. Because it's apparently just a tradition of whichever Superman lore you're paying attention to, eventually there will be a statue of Superman.

47:34
Keith Lehtinen
Gotcha. Okay, I see.

47:36
Case
Which is just like. It's just mean. It's nice that they're calling back to what was already a thing in pre crisis continuity, but I just don't know when in pre crisis continuity, it first showed up.

47:47
Keith Lehtinen
That makes sense. Okay. Yeah, too many crisis.

47:50
Case
But you know what's a weird thing that does show up? Rex Leech.

47:53
Keith Lehtinen
Who?

47:54
Case
Anyone who's familiar with the 90s. Superboy is his agent. He's got armed goons.

48:01
Keith Lehtinen
I just remembered that.

48:05
Case
He shows up trying to book Jimmy Olsen or sign Jimmy Olsen. Pardon me? It's been a while since I've watched entourage. He's trying to sign Jimmy Olsen. And I was like, oh, you won't go with me? I've got armed goons. And I'm like, whoa, escalation. I mostly know him from hanging out and being kind of a huckster, but in a hawaiian shirt, living in Hawaii with Superboy the kid.

48:29
Keith Lehtinen
Imagine having the worst timing, because you're like, I'm going to shake this guy down. You know what the best place to do it? In front of every superhero on the planet. The one place I know every superhero will be. That was so funny. I'm like, what are you doing, man? Have a little planning.

48:45
Case
And then Robin saves him. And it's like, kind of nice to have a Robin Jimmy Olsen moment. But this is the Tim Drake Robin, so it's, like, weird in that regard because the history of them being friends was like Dick Grayson.

48:55
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, right.

48:55
Case
But then a fight breaks out and we get some nice shots of green Lantern rounding up everyone in some kind of saucer. And a very busty shot of Wonder Woman.

49:11
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, it is. At least she's got muscles, I'll give her that. Because sometimes she's drawn without muscles, and that always bothers me, so. Yeah, right.

49:22
Case
A twig with two beach balls stapled to it.

49:25
Keith Lehtinen
I have to point out the next page again. Mom paw Kent. But that first shot of Lex on the tv, that is hilarious. To me, that is one of the funniest things I've ever seen drawn. I don't know why. It reminds me of, like, do you remember Tom Thumb from the squadron supreme?

49:44
Case
Yes.

49:45
Keith Lehtinen
I immediately thought of Tom Thumb. I was like, what in the world? I was like, oh, it's Lex. And his hair is taking over. It's bigger than the tv.

49:53
Case
Yeah. His face is so small, but his hair takes up the whole screen.

49:57
Keith Lehtinen
And it was great because it's a really emotional moment. I'm just staring at Lex on the screen. It was really kind of a weird situation, but, yeah. Again, this through line of mom paw. Can't love it. It's just perfectly done.

50:10
Case
And then the next page. The year that this came out is very obvious.

50:14
Keith Lehtinen
I completely forgot until you said the next page. And I hit over and I was like, oh, my God.

50:24
Case
Ladies and gentlemen, at home, it's a full page of just panels of the Clintons just talking about how important Superman was. It is quite the snapshot of 1992.

50:37
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, it definitely is. And Hillary's hairstyle dates almost to the month, if you. Yeah, so pretty. That was pretty random. I was like, wait, what? I completely forgot about that again.

50:53
Case
Yeah, it's wild.

50:58
Keith Lehtinen
I mean, Obama was in the issue.

51:03
Case
It's not the first time, by far. Infamously again, the month after John F. Kennedy died, there was an issue of Superman that came out where Superman revealed himself to John F. Kennedy because of the timeline of how comics happen. So it's not the first time, but it's like, it's Bill and Hillary Clinton. It's just such a moment, and there's so much baggage.

51:33
Keith Lehtinen
It's so funny to me because traditionally, Marvel takes pains to be in the real world. Everything's set in New York City or San Francisco or something, and DC has these made up cities, but when DC, it's time to have a president, they're like the real, like, what does Bill Clinton think of the crime in Gotham? That's what I want to know.

51:56
Case
Yeah, well, he'd probably go from, like a three strike to a grand slam policy only.

52:03
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

52:03
Case
God, if Gotham City was real. Anyway, not going too far down that road. So Lois finally calls the Kents, or I guess she tried to call them before, but they were out. Or rather, there was a ring before, but here she's actually calling. And the Kents are now actually doing their own funeral ceremony. And this is a really touching scene of them standing over the crater where Clark's rocket came in and then putting all of his personal effects into that space while then it's being cut back. Between that and the actual lowering of the coffin into the sarcophagus inside this mausoleum that they have set up in the center of their park.

52:44
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, I really liked that. That was probably the most touching scene. Like, that funeral was really sad.

52:51
Case
All the mon Pam stuff in this book, man, it's a gut punch.

52:58
Keith Lehtinen
It's a glaring example of how effective they can be when you use them correctly.

53:02
Case
Yeah. And that's why I'm always a little hesitant to just flat out agree that the parents or PA specifically should be dead because I think that there is merit at a point and he should have to deal with it. But he could already be Superman and still then deal with the fact that he can't save his dad.

53:20
Keith Lehtinen
See, I like them alive. Personally, I'm a big fan of Son of Kalow. The series going on with John and him having the Kents to go to is really great. That's been really refreshing. And also, you find out that the Kents had a weekly conversation with Alfred over the phone to talk about their superhero boys and the problems with them, which I was like, amazing. So, yeah, I'm 100% pro, both Kents being alive.

53:47
Case
Yeah. So then we finally get Lois talking to the Kents, and it's super sweet. The Kents are. They draw their strength by doing good to other people, which is good, because that shows how they're so important to Superman, because they are reinvigorated by being like, lois needs us. We have to code her.

54:06
Keith Lehtinen
Right after they said, like Pa says, it's almost like there's no reason to go on living. And I'm like, what? Really? A lot? But then they're like, oh, here's a reason. Good. Here's a temporary solution to this very alarming problem I've brought up.

54:21
Case
So then we head over to Superman. No. Subtitle 76 and this is mostly the Justice League. And then intercut with some other stuff going on. So the Justice League gathers to be like, well, this sucks, right? Superman's dead. This is upsetting. And they all kind of give their thoughts on mortality, specifically Batman being like, death's a part of life, and some of us draw justice from it.

54:44
Keith Lehtinen
Justice. He's so depressing. Like, why? I don't get it. It's not fun. See, again, and this is the issue where the other issue with my boy, guy Gardner, who's just, is. This is bullshit, basically. And he's like, fine, I'll do the right thing. Everything guy Gardner does is begrudgingly. And, you know, he knows he's doing the right thing, and, you know, he wants to do it. He just wants to complain about it while he does it. And I love him.

55:13
Case
But we also pick up with Mitch, the kid whose house got destroyed in the previous. Well, not the previous issues. Two issues back in Superman, when Superman was fighting alongside the Justice League, these characters, or fighting doomsday. And it's nice to pick up with this character because he is now feeling grief, because him calling for Superman as odly positioned in the continuity as it was, because the transition between issues had some weird positioning things where it's just like, he's calling for Superman to help, and Superman is like, I have to ignore him. And then the next, he's like, no, I'll stop doomsday for a moment, then go back and help, and yada, yada. But either way, it's dealing with him and his version of grief, feeling that he is responsible for Superman's death.

55:57
Case
And that he had taken Superman such for granted that he thought he was lame. And then when it was time to get saved by a superhero, Guy Gardner didn't do it. Like, Guy Gardner was taken out of action by this point. It's like Superman's the only one who came back for him.

56:12
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

56:13
Case
And I really like him. Kind of, like, just he came to Metropolis and he's mourning, and he's just walking through the rain, and he doesn't know what he wants to do. He doesn't have a fucking clue because he's, like, 17. Who the fuck knows? He's just upset and he just needs to be there. And he's like, oh, someone who might be connected to Superman's making announcement, and it's this, like, sham woman pretending to be, like, Mrs. Superman.

56:35
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, and that's weird, actually. I kind of enjoyed this sham woman trying to be Mrs. Superman because it reminds me of the people that, like, that one woman who claimed to be a survivor of 911 but was not involved, but just found this community and stuff. And I thought that was really interesting, that just attaching yourself to a tragedy, not necessarily for fame, but just because you want to be a part of something. That's kind of how I interpreted that, but I liked that a lot. Yeah.

57:08
Case
I like Jimmy connecting to Mitch, though. I thought that was a nice detail there. Mitch kind of is playing the role of a younger Jimmy in that. Like, now we get to see Jimmy sort of taking on the step of being the emotional support for the young kid and takes him to a bar.

57:27
Keith Lehtinen
Way to go, Jimmy.

57:30
Case
The Kents arrive, as does Lana. And Lana just is like, suddenly in the, like, lois gets home, the Kents are there, and then, just like, lana's there, and it's, oh. Didn't expect to see you here. But it's good to bring them all together because we need the family for Superman to gather. Meanwhile, the justice leaguers all go to read all the fan mail that's sent to Superman every year for Christmas and try to respond to all the things.

57:58
Keith Lehtinen
It's a filler episode within a filler episode. It's so funny to, like. It's like, oh, we got to do a Christmas episode. All right, well, we got to answer Santa's letters, but it's Superman, basically.

58:14
Case
I got to say, I swear to God, I did not plan this, but this is going to be the episode that drops around Christmas time.

58:20
Keith Lehtinen
Amazing.

58:22
Case
Which is just kind of great.

58:23
Keith Lehtinen
Let's talk about that nightwing panel. That hair is amazing. The lips are luscious. It's such a great shot. I love the way people draw nightwing. He's incredible.

58:39
Case
Like, if you didn't know that was a letter, if that was like, a photo, you'd be like, he's going. Like.

58:45
Keith Lehtinen
He'S cooing. I love.

58:49
Case
Yeah. And I like, they talk about how there's a mix of letters that are like, bullshit letters or things that Superman really just can't do anything about. And then other ones where it's like, oh, no. They get to the one. And part of it is the right idea, which is they get to. Mitch's mom sends the letter, and it's like, okay, well, that's nice that she. Amazing that she wrote the letter that fast. The day that Superman died, she sent it, and they're like, well, we have to help fix the house. We should go do that. That part's good. We'll get to why. I have questions later. Cut to the bar. Bibbo is hanging out with Mitch and Jimmy, and they realize we're like, oh, this kid looks familiar. And they're like, oh, fuck. Superman saved you right before he died.

59:32
Case
And they all just keep telling him that they know Superman. But it is interesting. There's never a point where they share credentials on this one and be like, no, I am Superman's pal. Like, signal, watch. See?

59:41
Keith Lehtinen
Well, he did. He almost believed that fake lady. So, I mean, he's obviously gullible for these things.

59:46
Case
That's true. And then these two just, like, buy him a meal and then give him airfare to go back. It. It's good, though, because it's nice to see these different perspectives of the three of them, even though they're all like, there are different points in the same timeline of people who. I don't want to say it's not exactly a parasocial relationship, but it's like this friendly relationship with Superman, but it's from the distance by virtue of the fact that Superman himself is a secret identity. Like, Jimmy is his pal Bibbo. They're friends. You can't say no that they're not friends. And Mitch would be almost, like, in that direction if Superman had survived. You imagine that they could have actually had some kind of a relationship because, again, Mitch is almost like the next generation Jimmy.

01:00:34
Case
And Bibo is like, Jimmy if he had a drinking problem.

01:00:37
Keith Lehtinen
Mitch is very much a 90s Jimmy.

01:00:40
Case
Yes.

01:00:41
Keith Lehtinen
He's just like, I got long hair, but I also wear a ball cap backwards. I'm like, you look like Axel Rose. I'm like, did they choose Axel Rose as the model? Because you look like Axel Rose. And, yeah, he could have definitely been a 90s Jimmy. That's just Jimmy, but a little edgy man.

01:00:56
Case
Yeah, he skateboards.

01:00:57
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, exactly. Poochie.

01:01:01
Case
Exactly.

01:01:02
Keith Lehtinen
It's the poochie version, basically.

01:01:04
Case
Then we cut back to Lana, who is depicted as blonde in my copy. I'm not sure if it was recolored for the digital. And then her talking to the Kents and Lois and then trying to figure out what they want to do with the secret identity. And they're like, no, he wanted his privacy. We'll respect that. Which is good, because he comes back to life. I don't know if that's the choice I would have made if I didn't know he was coming back to life, though.

01:01:28
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, I do like that they address how complex of a situation this is. I like that because there are situations where characters of the secret identity die and they never really address the fact the real identity disappears as well. I know the one that's always really good about that is daredevil. There's always something there to explain it. Like, when he's in jail, it's like, oh, my twin brother is going to take my place or something. So I like that they addressed it.

01:01:54
Case
How many versions of Mike Murdoch have there been? Yeah, I like that they addressed it. I think that Lana raises good points. And that's why I'm like, honestly, if Superman wasn't coming back, I don't know if I would side against her in this conversation because there are good points made. Eventually they're going to figure it out. Like, is it better to control the narrative or to allow it to explode whenever it does?

01:02:17
Keith Lehtinen
Do you get out ahead of. Yeah, so.

01:02:21
Case
But then we skip to the spot that I'm like, not as sold on. So they go to Mitch's dad and they're like, didn't you know that your wife and two children were almost killed by a monster? And he's like, no, I wasn't paying attention because I'm a terrible dad, who I do keep soda stocked in my fridge, but I'm a terrible dad. And then they reunite the family. And it's like, look at how nice it is that we reunited this family. But I'm like, is it like they got divorced or they were separated for a reason?

01:02:53
Keith Lehtinen
I realize it sounds like all, yeah.

01:02:56
Case
We got them back together, but he walked out on his family. We don't know the circumstances, but also don't take for granted that it's automatically a good thing.

01:03:08
Keith Lehtinen
Also, if they wanted us to paint that this relationship would get back together, Diana should not have been the one to go to him, because she's standing there in a bikini, basically, and he goes. And then he's like, I want to get back with my wife. I'm like, I don't believe this at all.

01:03:22
Case
At all.

01:03:23
Keith Lehtinen
It should have been.

01:03:24
Case
Yeah, he thinks she's a stripper.

01:03:25
Keith Lehtinen
It should have been Guy Gardner, because Guy Gardner would have smacked him around a little bit, which would have been great.

01:03:32
Case
Meanwhile, the rest of the Justice League rebuild their house. That's good. I think that's a good choice. And then they're like, oh, we also brought back your deadbeat husband.

01:03:40
Keith Lehtinen
It would be really great if it was like, we brought your deadbeat husband back. And it's like, honey, I want to come back. And she's like, after everything you've did, and the justices are, what? And then he's like, listen, she meant nothing. She's like, she meant everything to you. And they had, like, domestic in front of the Justice League. I would love that, actually.

01:03:57
Case
That would be a very venture brothers type scene. But I would be so here for it, where it's just like, Flash, Hal Jordan, and Diana are just like, we should go, right? Yeah, we should go.

01:04:06
Jmike
Yeah, let's just leave them here for this.

01:04:08
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. And then, guys, told you. That'd be great. I'd love it.

01:04:12
Case
Yeah. And I get the. The amount of nuance and conversation about divorce has expanded exponentially since divorce has become more normalized over time. And this is still relatively fresh in that era, given that this is 92 ish. So were talking about it only being a little bit after it being legal, like, a decade after it being legalized. No fault divorce. I mean. And so this is still at the time where they're like, everyone's getting divorced these days, which is like a pop culture statistic that only made sense because all those marriages were terrible.

01:04:43
Keith Lehtinen
Right, exactly. Yeah.

01:04:46
Case
And this is like, oh, well, now all of a sudden, I don't know, I feel like we're more aware that, no, that might have been a really bad situation, and dragging him back was not necessarily making it better without showing us why it's better now. And they could have done that, but they didn't here. And thus, I am conflicted about this whole thing.

01:05:06
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. It's like, I give it six months, kind of.

01:05:09
Case
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Meanwhile, Mitch is at the statue of Superman and feeling a little bit better, and Jimmy's like, come on, pal. And then they head out just in time for the Kents and Lois and Lana to show up. And there's a spot where Jimmy's like, swear, I heard drilling while he's standing at the statue.

01:05:28
Keith Lehtinen
Do you guys hear that? Anybody? Or suggest me?

01:05:34
Case
It's a really awkward bit. But then we get the cliffhanger for this episode or issue is that Paul Westfield has overseen Superman's body being taken out of the tomb by way of drilling a new tunnel into. Know that's. That's going to be a big plot.

01:05:51
Keith Lehtinen
For the remainder of this arc and this. So then we have a point in which I stopped caring. No, it's not so much stopped caring, but definitely the first four issues were the highlight of this run for me after this. We mentioned it's kind of the filler. This is when we get the filler episode.

01:06:11
Case
Yeah, it's certainly an arc that just like, everything gets reset to zero at the end of it. Also only so much value. Although there is some because it does help explain because they don't have a preexisting reason why they're able to make Superboy. Yeah, so there is some of that there. But we pick up with the adventures of Superman 499. Keith. Just as a reminder, the reason why it's adventures of Superman, but with a really high issue number is that this.

01:06:39
Keith Lehtinen
Is the original Superman book.

01:06:41
Case
Yeah. And they just added that title for reasons that I don't get. But we open with Lex Luthor getting an alarm. And they very clearly are like, he is banging because he comes out naked in a robe and she follows behind in a 90.

01:07:02
Keith Lehtinen
I hate that. For the record, that's probably one of my least favorite things. I was like, why did it have to be sexual? You know what I mean? It made it so much weirder to me. I don't know.

01:07:15
Case
Yeah. Especially because he's still supposed to be, like, an adult. I take him as like a 25 year old body, like, somewhere in that range ish. And Supergirl, she's always presented here as being a little bit more of an adult than. She gets aged down slightly when she merges with Linda Danvers in her own book. And obviously she is a construct that has the memories of an adult Lana lang. So I don't know where we're at in that whole thing, but she's usually presented as like, the big sister to Superboy later. She's at least supposed to be like college age in terms of her character. And she's got this sexual relationship with Lex Luthor who I almost feel like it'd better if he was also supposed to be a 19 year old inheritor of the Luther fortune or something.

01:08:02
Case
Could have made it at least, like, not because it's still somehow predatory. Not just the fact that it's Lex Luther senior. It's like, Lex Luther Jr. Still feels predatory here.

01:08:11
Keith Lehtinen
It's because he looks like a ginger version of the beast from beauty.

01:08:14
Case
And.

01:08:16
Keith Lehtinen
Like, that's why, especially in this one, his hair is way toned down. In this, he looks. He literally visually resembles a. With the way the hair is and the eyebrows and stuff. This is a Wolverine Sabertooth look.

01:08:35
Case
And with the Aussie accent.

01:08:37
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, exactly. And then she's just like, this bright young girl popping out of his bedroom. Didn't like that much.

01:08:43
Case
Well, and then they're like, oh, go to the Superman place. But also use the secret tunnel that we installed. Which makes me ask, like, why did anyone bother to drill the tunnel? Just, like, use the secret tunnel.

01:08:52
Keith Lehtinen
Right, exactly.

01:08:53
Case
Do you think they got in there and they were like, oh, there was a door this whole time? Shit. And then I love this little bit here where one of the plot points only happens because Supergirl explicitly forgot to do it, which is that she approaches in her covert, sneaking into his tomb. She approaches without going invisible, and she thinks to herself, I guess I could have been invisible. But she opens up the grate, goes inside, and someone sees, just like, this red cape, go inside Superman's tomb, who at first, I thought was Mitch, because he looks a lot like Mitch, but it is an undercover cop who is just supposed to be pretending to be a homeless person sitting, or an unhoused person sitting on the bench.

01:09:38
Case
But he's actually, like I said, an undercover cop, like, guarding the park, and he sees this whole thing. It's like, guys, we should get some people out here, because something's weird happening here. At the very least, a giant crate just moved.

01:09:50
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

01:09:51
Case
And she goes in this very tech looking kind of tunnel and vault into Superman's tomb and finds him gone.

01:10:00
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

01:10:00
Jmike
I thought that the slab was, like, the concrete thing they put him in. And I was like, oh, wait, no.

01:10:06
Case
Was there actually a coffin there? Yeah, we saw that there was, like, a slab that the coffin was put inside of before. So I also was confused. I think that this is the issue of different artists drawing the same thing without necessarily being able to see each other's work. It should have been like, the top slab is, like, pushed aside and there was a gap there where the coffin was inside of.

01:10:30
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

01:10:31
Case
But I think from this point on, every time we see it's just a coffin sitting on the slab instead of being entombed, as it were.

01:10:38
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. I think obviously, the funeral one, I bet they submitted it in bigger, more elaborate, and then obviously they wanted to contrast the kent funeral as being very small but intimate and something that matters to them. So, yeah, he's in a coffin, but we'll put the coffin in a coffin. I think that's kind of what it is. They just kind of push that issue to be as good as possible because the only issue comes close to the death of a character is the funeral character. Yeah.

01:11:08
Case
Meanwhile, this is just the filler episode in between. So smashcut. Two gangbusters standing outside the statue. Everyone's coming to this fucking statue. Why didn't Supergirl think to go invisible? Because clearly people just keep fucking coming to it. It turns out Kat Grant has dumped him already, which we didn't get to see that breakup on screen, and he's really pissed off about it. Anderson comes up behind him, and he just decks him. And then the cops are like, hey, we should arrest you. You just decked a cop. We're like, no, it's okay. He's a vigilante.

01:11:42
Keith Lehtinen
What?

01:11:47
Jmike
The comics are weird, but I had a question about vigilante. I'm still trying to figure out where he came from.

01:11:52
Case
What is his whole deal about Gangbuster?

01:11:55
Jmike
Yeah, sorry, gangbuster?

01:11:57
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

01:12:00
Case
I don't know. When he first shows up in comics, the biggest arc that I know of connected to him, aside from him just being around in Metropolis for a lot of stuff, was one where, after killing Zod, Superman feels this intense torment and is psychologically upset and goes through these episodes where he'll dress up as gangbuster and go and be this hyperviolent vigilante at night. And there's this whole issue of the real gangbuster being upset that this other guy was honing in on his turf and pretending to be him. But I don't really remember because he's kind of just like, we need to have a Batman type character, but we're not going to deal with Batman these days.

01:12:38
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, I remember specifically because, like I said, I didn't remember him at first, but then I did remember him because of Gangbuster two, which is actually his niece. She first appeared in DC Rebirth. So then I was, like, retroactively learning about him at that point because I did read that.

01:13:00
Case
He'S supposed to be a less well funded, street level vigilante, which is why he's wearing stuff that looks more like stuff you could buy at, like an army navy surplus that's been all recolored. To have one kind of unified design. It's a little bit more thrown together instead of like, here's my cool superhero outfit. So cut to the Kent's having trouble sleeping and they're all upset and they're all staying at Clark's apartment. And then as soon as Supergirl's gone, Lex Luthor has a whore come in, or at least a mistress. I'm not necessarily sure the relationship there, but he's like, on the phone with her and at the same time this girl is like, pouring him glasses of wine.

01:13:37
Keith Lehtinen
Right. Very strange.

01:13:42
Case
You'd figure he would be prepared for her to suddenly come back. It just seems like a weird plan.

01:13:52
Keith Lehtinen
They make the point and it's a common thing, is the fact that he pretty much surrounds himself with women. Anyways, now, here's the thing, right? Her name is Lori. And immediately, the only Lori I could think of was, yeah, you know where I'm going with this is his niece, but she doesn't look like.

01:14:12
Case
Oh, no, I was thinking Lori Limerick.

01:14:14
Keith Lehtinen
Oh, I was thinking Lori Luther. And I was like, that's not Lori Luther. So I was kind of like, it's got to be someone else. And I couldn't think.

01:14:21
Case
That's true. And it is a redhead.

01:14:22
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. But I just thought that was funny. I was so.

01:14:26
Case
Yeah, it's weird. I will say for as weird as a relationship, this all is. Tom Grummett draws a beautiful supergirl. When we cut to the next page, it's like, oh, yeah. And there's like something interesting about the full hair that she has there that is different than what I think of as like a Kara haircut. Wow. The syllables just got mixed up there. It's much longer and flowing and I don't know, it's interesting, that matrix, despite the fact that objectively, all the details are the same as Kara, looks different to me.

01:15:00
Keith Lehtinen
I like the layers of the hair. If we're going to get hairdresser about it, I do like how I like the bang, the big swoop of the bang, but then everything behind it's layered. I think that's really cool looking, actually.

01:15:10
Case
So cops show up, and this actually is the thing I was alluding to before. Dan Turpin's going to go in there and Dan Turpin teaming up with Supergirl is like kind of a fun team up. And by the end of this book, he has a fatherly relationship to her. He's really worried about what that Lex Luthor Jr. Is doing with her. And he's not concerned at the, like, over the course of it, he comes to really care for her.

01:15:36
Keith Lehtinen
Right.

01:15:37
Case
Which I think is cool. And then Dan Turpin just goes in solo into the underworld.

01:15:43
Keith Lehtinen
I got it. Looking like dumb Dugan shit.

01:15:49
Case
We get a team up of Bibbo and gangbuster and dealing with some hoodlums.

01:15:55
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. Once again showing how the. Every person is trying to step up and take the place of, basically.

01:16:03
Case
So we cut to these giant caverns that Supergirl discovers, and there's like, oh, there's a fork in the road. Let's go this way. And Dan Turpin follows because hears violence going on. So it's very clear to everyone that it's like, no, they have both gone the wrong way. That other way was the way they were supposed to go. God damn it.

01:16:23
Keith Lehtinen
That's one of my favorite parts about this. As we get into this story, because they go down the wrong fork, obviously, we have this big confrontation later. Everybody's gathering, and then they're just like, we don't know where they could have gone. And then it's just like, well, there was another fork. And I was like, it took way too long to bring this up. It was really weird to. Yeah, yeah.

01:16:42
Case
Then we get Supergirl confronted by Claustro the doomsday looking.

01:16:45
Keith Lehtinen
I was going to say, how dare they? He looks exactly like doomsday, but a different color. Just wait a month. It's ridiculous.

01:16:58
Case
The crazy thing is that he was already established in the previous. He's the character that doomsday is kind of ripping off.

01:17:06
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. I was like, claustro, what a stupid. Sounds like a pokemon.

01:17:12
Case
Meanwhile, Turpin, when he gets into the fight with everyone, his clothes get shredded. And he's just like, there. And he's fucking ripped. Despite being, like, a squat, like, kind of heavyset dude.

01:17:21
Keith Lehtinen
He's like, bodybuilder ripped. It's great.

01:17:23
Case
Yeah, it's like the kingpin, but, like a little bit smaller.

01:17:27
Keith Lehtinen
Exactly.

01:17:28
Case
And he's like, fighting fucking aliens.

01:17:31
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, I love it.

01:17:32
Case
And mutants and grenades are being tossed around, and then he's, like, pulled out in just his boxers.

01:17:38
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. That was a weird choice because in the end, it didn't actually serve a purpose, him losing his pants. And I was like, why did they do that? I was kind of curious.

01:17:47
Case
Yeah. And it's brought up again in the following issue.

01:17:50
Keith Lehtinen
They're like, yeah, I got pants. I'm like, cool. Why did we do this?

01:17:55
Case
But we get confirmation that Cadmus has taken Superman's body. Also, we get one of many explosions in the underworld. So this is not the only one that will occur, and it's not the one that really matters. It's just one of them. One of the many picking up back over in action comics. Yeah. Where we're going to focus on the Guardian now.

01:18:20
Jmike
Captain America.

01:18:20
Keith Lehtinen
What?

01:18:21
Case
Yeah, exactly.

01:18:22
Keith Lehtinen
It's so weird because the subtitle for this issue is who's buried in Superman's tomb? And it has nothing to do with the plot. It's so mean.

01:18:33
Case
I will bet you all these titles were figured out before they actually wrote the issues because they were all like, we talked last time. Well, not last time were talking about the animated, but the time when were talking about the comics, how they had thumbnailed out all the story beats and so forth. And I'm sure that there was more thought about like, oh, by this point, Superman's tomb stuff will still matter and it doesn't by the time we get here. I like that one of the criminals is like, it can't be the Guardian. My grandfather was arrested by the Guardian one time and it's like, dude, superheroes change. Who's like, the costumes pass on all the time. And yes, this one is a weird scenario where an old school superhero had his body cloned and his brain transferred into a younger body.

01:19:17
Keith Lehtinen
But it's not like you can check his id and determine the same guardian.

01:19:21
Case
It's really, it's not that. Just, and it's not even like a dude with his face shown, like, he's wearing a helmet. Yeah, but the Guardian is distinctly Captain America esque in this whole sequence.

01:19:35
Keith Lehtinen
There's a bit here where they're like, the prisoners are accused of assaulting them, basically. And he's just like, don't worry, my handy dandy bike has like a bunch of cameras that recorded the whole thing. And I was like, that cop is like, wonder if we could get something like that, like some sort of body cam. I was just staring at this page for a while.

01:20:01
Case
It prints it to a laser disc for him.

01:20:04
Keith Lehtinen
Laser disc. Thank God we all have laser disc players, right? Wink at the camera.

01:20:12
Case
Yeah. So then Guardian gets summoned by Double X and we get an extended sequence of Lex kind of going over the whole, like, just in case you forgot, I'm a clone.

01:20:22
Keith Lehtinen
Lex is also recovering. His hair, is recovering, its volume building back up for the next Simonson issue.

01:20:32
Case
I do like the whole idea of suicide slum being this old neighborhood. That was part of the golden age tradition of characters. Guardian is like this Kirby era character who is like, I'm going to protect the newsboy legion. And it's just like. It feels very like great depression e kind of style. And then it's like, okay. And nowadays we have, like, a secret base that goes underneath the garage that we used to work at back in the day. So guardian returns. We get Turpin by the, like, Turpin looks like such a nerd when they cut to him. Yeah, he's wearing a bow tie. He looks like just a totally different proportion. He looks like the energy vampire from what we do in the shadow.

01:21:11
Keith Lehtinen
Yes.

01:21:13
Case
With a red hat on.

01:21:15
Keith Lehtinen
Amazing.

01:21:16
Case
But then we're going to kind of focus over at Cadmus, where Guardian is pissed off to find out that Superman is here and Supergirl's investigating the tunnel, and then there's an explosion that had a fucking Cadmus logo on it.

01:21:29
Keith Lehtinen
Branding, man. Got to get your name out there.

01:21:37
Case
And this is where it gets interesting, because this explosion happens right after the previous set of explosions, and now all of a sudden there's flooding going on. And so this is the explosion that actually matters for the successive events, because now there's flooding going on in the city, and the city was already fucked up and everything. And I'm like, did they just write the same scene twice or not decide who was going to do the same scene? But then they've got the pants part down. They're like, oh, no, you don't need to get me new clothes. I've got new clothes.

01:22:01
Keith Lehtinen
It's amazing. That's the one bit of continuity that was perfect in the pants.

01:22:06
Case
That could have just been, like, a line of dialogue that was added later. So maybe it was like, oh, no, we covered the explosion, but there's a second explosion, this time a Cadmus themed.

01:22:17
Keith Lehtinen
Think this one. I don't know why they did the first one, is what I'll say. Obviously, this one matters. This one points to Cadmus. It's the one. I don't know why they did a first one. Like, it didn't need to be explosion. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe they're going to do something where Supergirl and them thought that they caused the flood, but that isn't really addressed, if I remember correctly. I don't know.

01:22:39
Case
There is a moment where Lois asks one of the guys from the underworld, like, did you guys cause the flooding? And they're like, you overworlded us, flood our tunnels, and then you blame us for flooding them, which, sure, I guess that is like a legit issue, but.

01:22:53
Jmike
They hand her the bot after that, though, or hand her one of the.

01:22:55
Case
Right. Yeah, we do set up the super cult. Yeah. Which I think is good and is going to be very important when we get to the reign of the Superman part. Yeah. This is an era in comics where a lot of the ideas of worshipping the superheroes is starting to come around. It's around here where we're getting, like, the 2099 stuff from Marvel. And so we'll be dealing with the spider rights and the Thor rights at that point over on the Marvel side. Now, admittedly, it's the future, but it's interesting that in the early 90s, in the zeitgeist, was a conversation about, like, well, wouldn't we start worshipping the superheroes? And you can draw a line back to all the stuff with miracle man, for example, with Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman doing the same thing at the end of the 80s.

01:23:43
Case
This is all part of this filler arc of, like, all right, well, what happened to Superman's tomb? And all the cops are being like, I don't know. It's probably Cadmus, but is it? And, like, they all know it's Cadmus.

01:23:54
Jmike
Like, everyone in their mother knows it's Cadmus at this point.

01:23:57
Case
They all know Ma kent knows it's Cadmus.

01:24:01
Keith Lehtinen
They tried to take the body from the scene of the crime, and we're told no. And he literally was like, I'll get it one way or the other. And then the body goes missing. And they're like, who could have taken the, like, yeah, it's very funny to.

01:24:16
Case
It's just. It's because they couldn't advance it too quickly. And so they all have to just be like, could it be Cadmus? We need more evidence. Who could it be? Possibly Cadmus now? Well, maybe. Hold on. Let's investigate. It might be Cadmus.

01:24:32
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, exactly.

01:24:34
Case
Then we get the kins leaving town, which I think is good. For one thing, it makes sense that they would go home. For another, it's, like, nice to be like, yes. No, they've had their time with Lois, and Lana is also going to go. We get a good moment of Lana turning back to go talk to Lois before she gets on her plane. And this is all pre 911, so Lois is allowed to be in the terminal because the world used to be a different place.

01:24:59
Keith Lehtinen
That bottom row of panels is incredibly intimate. The way it was drawn was very romance comics to me, and I was kind of like the first shot I thought, are they kissing? For like a split second, I'm like, did they kiss? I'm like, no, they're not. And then they're both crying and then the really close up of wiping her tear away. And I was kind of like, wow, this feels like a romance comic. It's very strange, especially the hard eye contact Lana's trying to make. In that second thought, I was engaged to who? At this point, Lana was with Pete Ross.

01:25:31
Jmike
At this point, I didn't remember.

01:25:34
Case
Yeah. But next up, we get the other short story that's included in this collection, which is, again, so this one is written by Carl Kiesel with art by Walt Simonson. And it's entirely a side story, but I like it. And I think it's important to talk about just for the larger continuity that they're kind of building where they crack the code on Superman's DNA. And then the newsboy Legion and their younger clone versions of themselves, the kid Newsboy lesion, because I fucking love this.

01:26:09
Keith Lehtinen
Part about the series.

01:26:13
Case
The other directors of Cadmus used to be the kids in the 40s comic with the Guardian, and now they're adults who are super scientists and run a cloning facility. It's fucking great. But they have young clones also, and none of them are really that cool with what they're doing to Superman. And Paul Westfield's like, no, but we could do some cool stuff with it. Let me show you what we can do in terms of cool stuff. And they bring them upstairs or bring them to this other section of Cadmus where there's a dude just flying around named Aron who is revealed to be a super advanced clone of Guardian. And I think that's really cool. I really like his design overall. I love the fact that his jetpack is the Guardian shield.

01:26:57
Keith Lehtinen
Yes.

01:26:58
Case
And he's really cybernetically linked to his computer, so he's like, a bit more under control. But we get this whole thing about him as this programmed clone. And I think that it is useful one in terms of our conversation that will ultimately happen about Superboy being like a programmed entity that is functioning. However, it establishes what Cadmus can kind of do if they're just taking a person and doing weird stuff with it, which I think is good. And also, Aron shows up later. I don't know if we'll ever actually talk about when he reappears. As far as I know, he just shows up to die by the hands of massacre, who is like a space version of Doomsday.

01:27:34
Keith Lehtinen
Less than two years later, he literally has no duration. It's crazy. It feels like they made a character and they're like, cool. We made this character, and then they realized, oh, we have to keep doing things with this character. And they're like, well, better kill him. So that really felt like his entire arc, basically.

01:27:52
Case
I mean, he kind of felt in part because his face is covered with, like, a golden sheath. He always gave me, like, a silver surfer vibe. And I realized that doesn't match up to any of the silver surfer backstory. He just goes off and wanders around space. And in a less robust DC universe, that would probably be a really interesting, unique character type. But in a world that has had Adam Rand's or Adam Strange and the Green Lantern corps and the Dark Stars and Legion. Exactly. He's not really carving out a unique territory for himself here. And so they probably were like, well, does anyone want to explain who Aron is in the next issue? No. Is that text blurb going to be too big? All right, let's just kill him.

01:28:36
Keith Lehtinen
I also thought maybe early on he might have been one of the people they had in mind to be one of the supermen. And maybe it got changed. That was my thought, because it felt like it's kind of setting that up. Like he's like guardian but better. And I was like, okay. And then suddenly we have these four new Superman. I'm like, maybe he was planned to be one of those. Maybe, like, instead of eradicator, maybe. Yeah.

01:28:59
Case
Or.

01:29:02
Keith Lehtinen
I thought, I mean, they're all.

01:29:03
Case
Set up already at this point, but.

01:29:05
Keith Lehtinen
Yes, also, if you told me, or if you did not tell me this is Walt Simonson, I would have told you, this is Walt Simonson. He has such distinctive art.

01:29:15
Case
Yeah, it stood out to me immediately when I turned the page and I was like, oh, that's Walt Simonson. Wait, I don't think he was writing any of these or, like, working on any of these books at the. Huh. And that's. That's when I realized that there were stories that were included in the trade that were not part of the issues we had said were on the list.

01:29:29
Keith Lehtinen
Exactly. Yeah.

01:29:31
Case
But all he does is he chases them down and takes the disc that has Superman's DNA encoding on it. And then remember who you are. You're Jim Harper, your guardian. And he's like, oh, right. And he crushes the disk after scanning it into his computer. And then later, there's a point where someone just like, when he shows up for his death, it's like he's got the code of Superman in his rocket pack. And then they just rip out the computer and destroy it. Because they're like, it's an old computer.

01:29:58
Keith Lehtinen
No one cares.

01:30:00
Case
It's pretty sophisticated binary code. Like, what is that, a piece of junk? All right, here, we'll replace the computer and they rip it off. Which I thought it was worth bringing up just because.

01:30:09
Keith Lehtinen
Okay.

01:30:10
Case
It's cool to see. All right. What is Cadmus doing? Westfield is the shitbag. Let's remind us of that. And also, Cadmus can do some interesting stuff. It's not just a cloning place. Their whole thing is they've created DN aliens, like, creating all these super powered things from human stock. And it's kind of cool in that regard. Cutting back over to man of Steel or Superman, the Man of steel. Which makes sense because all of a sudden we're dealing with the sympathetic characters that are in the underworld, not just the monsters.

01:30:38
Keith Lehtinen
Louis Simonson. Everything is flooding. Exactly.

01:30:41
Case
Louis Simonson comes back. She actually cares about these people.

01:30:44
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

01:30:45
Case
And Metropolis is flooding.

01:30:47
Keith Lehtinen
I wanted to just quickly, before we jump into it, the COVID I both love the COVID and also think it's kind of like, I don't know, the proportion of Ma Kent is too small. And that's really funny to me. I don't know. There's something weird about it, but it's also really emotional and really cool idea. And it really sets you up for what we're going to be talking about. But I don't know. There's something about the COVID that bothered me. And I was just kind of, like, wanting to drop that in there to see if you guys.

01:31:16
Case
No. Yeah. Looking at it's so wild that the last three issues are all dealing with Jonathan Kent, who is out of commission and really focusing on that. This issue, however, that's the end of this. Or further into this issue. At this point, we're just being reminded of all the sadness that Jonathan Kent is going through. Like, the whole thing with old Bessie, their old cow, and remembers her being a calf with a young Clark. And that's all super sweet. There's all these great moments there.

01:31:48
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. The way he feels about Clark and how he feels responsible for the life he led. And I thought that was really well done. That's a great emotional hook.

01:32:00
Case
Yeah. And it's intercut with all the underworlders being like, why is everything flooded? And we're reminded just how many weird fucking things are there. It's like a telepathic seal. And there's a frog that acts as a submarine for them.

01:32:12
Keith Lehtinen
I loved that. Again, it's great because in the previous one, it was like, there's a bunch of ugly things. Also, there's the claw dude, and then they're really generic in the other one, but in this one, we're starting to see these insane designs that I absolutely love. I love the frog dude. I love the telepathic seal. I love the stretchy one hanging from the bar there. He looks great. I love it.

01:32:38
Case
I love that the telepathic seal is named Teletype because he projects his thoughts to everyone.

01:32:42
Keith Lehtinen
Amazing. Also, I have to point this out. I don't know if it's this way because I'm reading digital you all to tell me, but in that first two page spread with the stretchy one, the title is ghosts. There's a gigantic gap between the h and the o on mine. Okay. That was really bothering me. I was trying to figure out if there was a purpose for that or not. It was a weird lettering choice, is what I'll say.

01:33:07
Case
Yeah, that is where the binding.

01:33:09
Keith Lehtinen
Okay. I was going to say, I bet it's the binding because I read it digitally, and that's what I'll show it.

01:33:14
Case
To you guys on here.

01:33:15
Keith Lehtinen
Oh, yeah, that makes sense. Okay. It was just so weird. I was like, what?

01:33:22
Case
Yeah, I think they had to do that to make it so it would not get eaten by the.

01:33:27
Keith Lehtinen
Makes sense. It's just because we get the full picture and just there's a gap there. And I thought that was strange, but, yeah, that makes sense.

01:33:34
Case
Yeah. So Lois is continuing to investigate this whole, like, everything's flooded. This is weird thing. We get a flashback of Batman being given the kryptonite ring by Superman, which is nice just to kind know their relationship is not as good post crisis as it was pre crisis. But it's still nice to get reminders that there are those intense moments between them, or intimate moments, I should say, lois, just, like, hanging out next to the river and the underworlders pop up and be like, hey, it's Miss Lane.

01:34:06
Keith Lehtinen
Hey, what's going on?

01:34:07
Jmike
I haven't seen you in a while.

01:34:09
Case
We're like, here's the proof that it was Cadmus. It was the Cadmus themed bomb.

01:34:13
Keith Lehtinen
There's the shot where she runs into Maggie when she finds the empty tomb. There's a shot of Maggie standing kind of in the background. And I swear to God, I thought that was Guy Gardner. I was like, why is Guy there? And I was like, oh, that's Maggie. Wow. Okay.

01:34:31
Case
Maggie's hair has also changed every depending on the artist. So in this, she's got the same bowl cut as Guy Gardner, but in other shots, she has more long, flowing hair. And it's just all over the place in terms of what she's supposed to look like. I hate to say the following phrase, but it feels like they were like she's a lesbian. Draw the hair that you imagine the lesbian would have and that they kind of went with that.

01:34:52
Keith Lehtinen
It's like her character description is female redhead, lesbian. Yeah, exactly.

01:34:59
Case
I really like the memories. Then when we get moving on, though, with Paw Kent recalling Clark coming home after his introduction as Superman and being so broken, I really love that because these are so close to the panels that we got in the man of Steel comic, and they're being interjected with this memory kind of component to it. They're doing a really good job tying in a book that probably Superman fans read and calling back to that so that we can feel the sadness of this superman. Not just like Superman as a general concept, but like the post crisis Superman.

01:35:36
Keith Lehtinen
I like how hulking he is in that scene. I didn't like that. I was going to say, because earlier in the issue, when it's with him in Batman, he's in the full suit and he's gigantic. And I'm not a big fan of that look, but with him being sad, I thought it was really cool to emphasize that he's a big, strong, very powerful person that is kind of just a little boy when his dad's there. You know what I mean? I kind of liked that shot specifically, but not the general idea of Superman being gigantic. I'm not a fan of that usually. Yeah. I have to talk about the previous issue, though, where the frog dude drops them off that lower panel of the frog dude.

01:36:15
Keith Lehtinen
Looking as done with this situation as I've ever seen anybody is honorable mention for my favorite panel in this entire series. He's just, oh, this is going to wait for you guys, I guess. I love that.

01:36:28
Case
Then you got to go back in my throat and I have to be awkward with that.

01:36:31
Keith Lehtinen
It's so weird.

01:36:35
Case
Yeah. Then we get Lois in a wetsuit going on a stealth mission.

01:36:40
Jmike
This is my favorite version of Lois.

01:36:44
Keith Lehtinen
What stage of grief is this?

01:36:47
Case
This is the kick ass lois that we're all. This is the anger stage.

01:36:50
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

01:36:51
Jmike
Kick ass Lois they were all used to seeing earlier on.

01:36:55
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

01:36:55
Jmike
It's like, oh, man, so good. It's so refreshing to see her do this stuff.

01:36:58
Case
Yeah, yeah. And then pack horse, like, phases them through. Because, again, this is the fucking Morlocks.

01:37:04
Keith Lehtinen
They all have mutant powers, so great.

01:37:07
Case
So they sneak in. They team up with the newsboy Legion or the young newsboy Legion. The clones of the Newsboy Legion. They go and they find Superman's body. One of the scientists there, though, looks just like the asgardian executioner, including his haircut. And it throws me so often because I'm like, did people have that haircut in the. I'm scared to find out what the answer is.

01:37:27
Keith Lehtinen
I don't think so. Remember? I honestly do not think so.

01:37:34
Case
But he's a scientist working on Superman's body, and they're like, let's give him these two terrifying stripes on the side of his head.

01:37:41
Keith Lehtinen
In the picture where he gets elbowed by Lois, it looks like the stripes in his head attached to his eyebrows because of the way they wrinkle it. It looks like it's like a crooked line that goes straight to his eyebrows. And that's insane. I think about what that would actually look like, and it's hilarious.

01:37:58
Case
But then they realize Double X is coming and they're like, well, I guess we should just leave his body. And so they flee. And thus this arc has done nothing so far. They've confirmed that Cadmus has him. And then they sneak away and Lois writes a story about it because it's upsetting. And Jonathan sees the story, and that's the thing that pushes him over the edge. And he has a heart attack.

01:38:21
Keith Lehtinen
Way to go, Lois. Jesus. No. Yeah, curiously enough, no Lex Luthor in this issue. And I was really anticipating his big body hair.

01:38:34
Case
Well, good news for you, because the next issue is a shirtless black's first page.

01:38:38
Keith Lehtinen
Yes.

01:38:42
Case
The Dan Juergens appears to be sort of the medium length hair between everyone. It's not quite as long as the John Bogdanov hair, and it's not quite as short as the Tom Grummett hair, but. So he's working out with his female trainers. And while thinking about how like, oh, wasn't it great when I used to be a big, fat, older rich man? And then I moved my brain into my clone body after I got cancer because of this game I was playing with. Pretty great. And he's like, distracted. So he gets kicked by one of his instructors and he's like, really pissed off. And Lois is like, well, it's a good thing you're not like your dad because your dad wouldn't have tolerated that shit. Right, Lex?

01:39:21
Keith Lehtinen
I love it. Just calling him out, it's like, right? Am I right? Your dad wouldn't have put up with that. So great.

01:39:28
Case
And Lois shows up at, like, big suit in my headcanon. Is that one of Clark's blazers?

01:39:35
Keith Lehtinen
The shoulders. The shoulder.

01:39:39
Case
And a tie.

01:39:41
Keith Lehtinen
It's amazing to see the two of them next to each other. Supergirl with the big hair and the weird skirt that looks like it's a leotard, but it's actually a skirt. And then her in the power suit with that. Like, it's just a great contrast. I love it.

01:39:56
Case
Yep. And so they all tease Lex about getting beaten by a girl, and then they go off and Lois, like, shares, like, here's the actual story, not the one that's going to see, like, because they're not going to let me bash the US government all this much. So here's the actual story. And he's like, I'll take care of this, darling. Crikey. Meanwhile, we got Jonathan being rushed to the hospital and they're trying to deal with it. We get some more flashbacks, but these flashbacks aren't like, they're nice, but they're not as well done as the previous issues where it's like, okay, we're switching out the spark plugs. Those are all good scenes, but it just doesn't hit you the way wheezy and John did the previous one.

01:40:35
Keith Lehtinen
It is kind of baby's first dad memory. You know what mean, like, if you're like, well, let's write a memory about a son and a dad working on the. It doesn't feel as unique to their relationship, I guess. Yeah.

01:40:49
Case
Then we got Jimmy selling all of his photos of Superman to Newstime. Being, like, doing a magazine shoot on the legacy of Superman kind of thing.

01:41:00
Keith Lehtinen
It's so weird. Jimmy having that picture of Superman Dead is very strange. I know it's his job and he wants to make sure he's honored and stuff, but he definitely could have done it in a less really depressing and gruesome, like, I don't know. It feels very strange to me.

01:41:22
Case
I don't know how he gets the one of Superman. Like, the drone shot of, he. He was on the ground. He wasn't on the helicopter at that point in the fight. He was on the ground. We know that he got a good shot of Superman doomsday, like, punching each other. So did he get, like, a ladder? Did he get that picture?

01:41:40
Keith Lehtinen
He got someone to carry him.

01:41:43
Case
Bloodwind. Before you rush ice off to the hospital, can you help me with this photo?

01:41:48
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. Right.

01:41:50
Case
And then we have that. There's one shot, and I'm sure there's like, a specific thing that it's alluding to, where we've got Clark and Superman right there, but Clark's in a robe, and I'm like, that's a weird photo just to randomly have your budy, who's like, just getting out of the shower. And also, here was that.

01:42:06
Keith Lehtinen
I want to say, was it Supergirl transformed? Maybe there's something in the back of my head ringing with that idea, but I might be wrong.

01:42:17
Case
Yeah, that might be when he came back from space, when they were trying to explain everything, Supergirl had been imitating Clark at that point. And that might be something to sort of set up that he was back. But it is just a weird shot, though, of him in just a robe right there.

01:42:35
Jmike
Right?

01:42:36
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

01:42:36
Case
And they decide they want to use the photo of. Not the flag, the cape flying on the random branch or pole or whatever.

01:42:46
Keith Lehtinen
I mean, it's more tasteful than the corpse from above shot, I guess.

01:42:51
Case
Oh, yeah, definitely for the COVID I agree. It's a good shot to use. I used it on the episode art for the death of Superman already. Then we cut to Sasha, the karate instructor who decked Lex Luthor. And aside from the gratuitous changing shot that they have on there, everyone leaves and she very clearly gets murdered by Lex Luthor.

01:43:14
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, right.

01:43:15
Case
I don't think anyone was asking that question at this. Like, it gets confirmed at the end of the issue. But we all know, right?

01:43:21
Keith Lehtinen
She literally says, there are no men in this building. Literally. She's like, except for Lex Luthor. And then says, hey, what are you doing in here? Can't you read that? This is the women's locker? I'm like, so it's a man. So it's the only man in the. It was. I was like, that's painfully obvious, but, yeah.

01:43:42
Case
Then we get Lois, like, daydreaming about Superman while Supergirl is flying. And this is the point where I'm reminded, oh, yeah. Supergirl doesn't know anything. Well, but she did. She's may Kent. So, wait, she has to know this situation, right?

01:43:56
Keith Lehtinen
Why?

01:43:56
Case
Is she confused? No, she. No, she does know. I was thinking, like, oh, I guess she doesn't know Superman's secret identity. But no, wait, she has to, because she was raised by the Kents for a couple years.

01:44:05
Keith Lehtinen
Does Lois know that she. Does Supergirl know that Lois knows?

01:44:12
Case
Well, I can't imagine that she. This is where it gets really weird, because. Wait, now I'm like, wait, hold on. I just pulled on the wrong thread, and now my brain's breaking because it's tough for you since your fiance passed away, but you better stop daydreaming. Her fiance, Superman. They're going on a Superman safety mission. It's not like she's thinking about something else going on. They're going to go rescue his body.

01:44:34
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

01:44:35
Case
And I guess it makes sense, kind of in the language is technically fine because the way I read that when I was rereading this yesterday was like, oh, she's talking about Clark. And he is forgetting that Clark is Superman. But that doesn't make sense because she has to know that Clark is Superman because she was raised by the Kents too, so what the fuck?

01:44:56
Keith Lehtinen
Also, random motorcycle gang to the rescue was amazing.

01:45:03
Case
Okay, well, again, they just love the Kirby stuff. So it's all part of the Superman's pal Jimmy all sitting front.

01:45:11
Keith Lehtinen
It's just like, okay, cool, let's go, I guess.

01:45:16
Case
Let's go break into Cadmus. It's like we're on a rescue mission for Superman. Oh, you ride with us.

01:45:22
Keith Lehtinen
It's like, I don't know why, but that kind of reminds me of, like, Spider man. Like, you mess with one of us, you mess with all of. Okay. Like, yeah, give me a Superman book where he joins a biker gang. I'll read the crap out of that, actually.

01:45:37
Case
So it did make me think. I think it was amazing fantasy 1000 that just came out. The one where it's like all the different writers doing stories of. There's like one where it's like the sinister 60, I think where it's like Spiderman is like a 60 year old man. And all of New York has just come to agree that, no, we don't pull up his mask. We don't charge Spiderman at the hospital for any recovery. Like he's Spidey. Like, no, we care about him. He's a fixture of New York. And it felt like.

01:46:04
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, yeah, I could see. Yeah.

01:46:06
Case
And by this, I mean, like this whole book in general, not like specifically this moment. Although this moment is part of that. Supergirl recovers the body of Superman and they bring him back to what is a new coffin that they have ordered for him. Intercut with them trying to resuscitate Jonathan.

01:46:20
Keith Lehtinen
I have to talk about one thing from the Jonathan page, though. The doctor saying, I don't believe this. He's not fighting at all is the weirdest thing I've ever seen in a scene. Like. Like, what kind of doctor is like, he's just not fighting. I don't know why that was. Maybe it's like the Norm McDonald joke stuck in my head. He lost his battle with cancer. He's like, oh, the last thing you ever do is lose. I don't know. Maybe that's just sticking up. And it's just like, I don't believe he's not fighting at all. How do you know he's not like, I don't know. That line really bothered me. I had to talk about, it's.

01:46:55
Case
It's like a revenge of the Sith. Like, in her sorrow, she died.

01:47:00
Keith Lehtinen
She died of staff. Yeah.

01:47:04
Case
Lois leaves the engagement ring inside the casket, which, in a scenario where this just adds to the weirdest of Linda Matrix. Pardon me. Definitely knowing that Lois's fiance was engaged to Superman. And they're like, let's leave Lex Luthor to have these final moments instead, while she secretly puts the ring in. Then we get Lex Luthor. Kind of like being like, ha. I got you. I win, bitch.

01:47:34
Keith Lehtinen
That gotcha face is great.

01:47:39
Case
This is a good moment for Luther Jr. It's bonkers as far as plots go, but I do like it as an idea of, like, yep. No, it is a villain that everyone thinks is a good guy and thinks is a different good guy, just, like, secretly there. And it's not that it hasn't been done before, and it's not that it hasn't been done since. It's, like, in the same vein of a superior spider man kind of thing. But I like it here. I think it's good. Lex Luthor is, like, the businessman Lex had started to become too well known as a bad guy. And it's nice to really force people to be. No, no, this one's a good.

01:48:13
Keith Lehtinen
Was. It was good to kind of set up the future because we know what know. So I think it was really good to set that up. It was a really good.

01:48:22
Case
And, like, I really like the composition of the last page of Jonathan flatlining and Martha saying, please don't leave me alone. I think that's great.

01:48:29
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. Because especially with the weird, almost like, we might as well die thing. And then it's very strange.

01:48:38
Case
Yeah. And then we get the adventures of Superman 500, which is a journey through. I mean, it's a divine comedy story. Basically, it's Jonathan doing what dreams may come, trying to find his boy.

01:48:51
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. If I remember correctly, because again, I'm reading digitally. Was this a big holographic panel on this cover?

01:49:00
Case
Yeah, for the COVID Yeah.

01:49:02
Keith Lehtinen
I was going to say, I remember this cover. I remember being really turned off by it because it was like a really big holographic thing. And it was very strange to me.

01:49:10
Case
Yeah. Looking at the back of the trade, because this is an issue I actually have, if I remember correctly, the COVID that came out. It's like a black border around it. And then this image is like a smaller hologram than the way it's represented on the trade, but I can't remember the specific proportions of it. But, yeah, it wasn't like foil. It was like an actual hologram, one that's thicker, kind of like plasticky one.

01:49:33
Keith Lehtinen
I was thinking when the X Men did the trading card, foil ones, basically glued onto the covers, like, for x force and stuff, that's kind of what I remembered it being like, but really big.

01:49:45
Case
Yeah. So Jonathan Kent is dying, and he appears to be in some sort of heaven. And I like the way they color it all. It's got this soft yellow kind of color scheme to it, which I think is really cool with lots of whites. Superman is mostly white, but with blue accents as opposed to a blue costume, for example, to sort of make it feel very ethereal.

01:50:12
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, definitely. It is colored very well. It's drawn very well. It's very much a completely different style than everything else we've seen so far in this entire.

01:50:21
Case
So, yeah, so Lois has flown out because very quickly, I should note to Jonathan Kent. And I guess that makes sense because Jonathan's been dying for three issues at this point. But it does feel, like, very fast.

01:50:33
Keith Lehtinen
Sometimes Smallville's across the country, sometimes it's right down the road. That's one thing that's always really weird with Superman to me. Sometimes they get. Obviously, Superman can fly stupid fast, but, like, normal people get back and forth. It was more of a problem in the show. Smallville, I remember that was one of my big pet peeves. But, yeah, sometimes it's, like, right there, and sometimes it's across the place. It's really.

01:50:52
Case
I mean, some of it comes down to the fact that originally Smallville was, what, Cleveland, right, where it was where the seagull and Schuster were living, or not Smallville, pardon metropolis was supposed to be. And so the middle America farmland is right there. It's actually. Why, weirdly, when they've tried to position metropolis on the DC map and they put it in Delaware, it actually works. Okay. Because Delaware is actually a fairly big farming, like, even though it's a tiny state. Fun fact, one of the major centers of our chicken industry is there. Like, Purdue chicken is based out of Delaware because it's just fucking crazy. And Smallville wasn't always explicitly Kansas. Smallville was actually, like the farm country close to the big city, so it could be wherever, because New York has farm country, obviously. Ohio has farm country. Delaware has farm country.

01:51:46
Case
And it was really like the movie. And then followed by the man of steel mini that locked it down as being like, oh, no, it's Smallville, Kansas. And not just like, oh, the town of like, because it's supposed to be in every know. It's supposed to be like, oh, it's just like little town, you know, main street instead of Wall street kind of thing. I'm so mad that my mind just flashed to Sarah Palin just there when I said that. Fucking this world. Yeah. Anyway, so it looks like kryptonians are luring away Kal El, and they're. He's. His human identity is no more. It is more important for him to go and die as the last son of Krypton than as anything else. Lois, meanwhile, shows up.

01:52:35
Case
We get a cut to a gangbuster thing where he is breaking up some kind of drug deal, and then it turns out that it was an undercover cop sting. And he's like, I didn't know. They're like, there's a warrant out for your arrest, probably from decking Inspector Henderson.

01:52:51
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, that's funny.

01:52:52
Case
Like, the cops are like, look, pal, those pushers you beat up deserve what you gave him, blah, blah. And he's like, starts running, and then they're like, well, we better shoot the bastard.

01:53:03
Keith Lehtinen
It's an oversized issue, obviously, 50 something pages, and it does kind of wrap up a lot of what we've set up, but not everything, which I thought was interesting. There's some characters we didn't quite check in with.

01:53:15
Case
Yeah, we did check in with one character who we have not seen so far at this point in the story, a little bit later on.

01:53:20
Keith Lehtinen
But I do love the, as you put it, the what dreams may come segment. I think that really stands out as really cool and interesting and very creative.

01:53:29
Case
Yeah, I love them. Here's Jonathan's life and all the different tragedies he's faced in his life, like being a war veteran, seeing his brother die on the farm. The brother dying on the farm was referenced way back again, going back to the man of Steel mini, where they talk about when Clark is almost, like, run over by the bull. And it's just like he says it flashed back to his brother dying. And like, oh, it's nice to have characters who have this history. And Jonathan being a person who is adamant about standing up for all these little guys and stopping all the hurt around him, I think, is nice as he travels. And then we get into the sexual harassment scene with Vincent Edge, who is Morgan Edge's dad, who at this point has taken over GBS and ousted his son.

01:54:15
Case
And, yeah, we just cut to him having just, like, I guess, pinched Kat Grant's ass.

01:54:21
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, that happened.

01:54:28
Case
That's so shitty. And then he seems to try to convince her to go on a date with him. I mean, he's like, no, bring the boyfriend of yours and, no, bring your like. But he's like, very clearly, he's such a Harvey Weinstein.

01:54:43
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

01:54:43
Case
Like, it's. It's. It's so fucking there on the page. It's not even, like, read between the lines. It's just there.

01:54:50
Keith Lehtinen
There's no subtext whatsoever.

01:54:55
Case
But it is nice to check back in with Cat Grant because she was created for the modern era of Superman books. Like, she's a Jerry Ordway creation to be. No, like, people would be into Clark because he's a nice guy who's really handsome and good at his job, and it makes sense that he would have romantic interests that aren't just Superman related ones. So it's nice to have this character continue to sort of evolve and be a part of the world even though he's now engaged to Lois and dead.

01:55:24
Keith Lehtinen
But.

01:55:27
Case
It was good to have her as an entity in that universe. That robust, rich cast is really important to Superman.

01:55:35
Keith Lehtinen
Right, exactly.

01:55:36
Case
Then we get a little bit with the prankster who, if this was the only use of the prankster in all of post crisis DC, I'd be like, fine with it. I was like, yeah, no, he does a little prank on his jail cellmate, and that's it. And I know it's not. I know he's around, but this was kind of the perfect use for one of these goofier villains that have a hard time being updated for a modern era.

01:55:57
Keith Lehtinen
Right.

01:55:57
Case
Which was just kind of fun. Then we got Jimmy being sad, and we got them thinking about Jonathan as he's fighting for his life. And then we cut to, like, falling through a hole and looking out for his dad. And then we get Satanus blaze. Sorry, Satanus's sister, which actually. So wait, this is Jerry Ordaway, right, writing this issue, I think, was.

01:56:22
Keith Lehtinen
I think there's. There's. They all contributed.

01:56:26
Case
Well, no, yeah, this is true. There's a bunch. No, it's Jerry Wordway on.

01:56:33
Keith Lehtinen
Got on the online credits. They got Carl Kessel, Dan Juergens, Jerry Ordway, Roger Stern and Louise Simonson all, oh, on this.

01:56:42
Case
Yeah, but either way. And Carl Keesel takes over after this point and on the adventures of Superman book because he's the one who, along with grummet, like, take on the superboy stuff. So in a sense, like, this is also kind of saying goodbye to, like, tenure on the book because he's been on the book since the crisis on infinite earths at this point. So cat Grant being a part of the story makes sense. That was one of his. And also when he going off of this, he goes off and does the power of Shazam, where Blaze and Satanus are then big parts of that story. So, like, characters that he likes to play around with are showing up here. And it's fun that blaze tries to tempt Jonathan Kent the same way she tempts Teth Adam and Shazam the wizard.

01:57:31
Case
And then we get kismet, eternity equivalent for DC Comics.

01:57:37
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, it gets real cosmic. I was going to say that's a very familiar form that looks very similar to something else.

01:57:50
Case
Mean, like beautiful art. And then as Jonathan travels, he ends up on what looks like Krypton, but it's like a weirdly religious Krypton. And that's a nice detail. Know, we get a reference to the cleric who is the one who was the guardian of the eradicator. So it helps us sort of primes us for all the weird little lore things that we're going to be dealing with when we get to the reign of Superman.

01:58:12
Keith Lehtinen
Right.

01:58:15
Case
Only for dollar be revealed to be demons trying to steal his soul. Jonathan's got to deal with it.

01:58:22
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah.

01:58:22
Case
And then cut to a dude just walking on the dock. And I swear to God, I thought this was Bibo. And then it was like, oh, no, we should go to Bibbo's place. Okay, cool.

01:58:33
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. Again, talking about the, just like, I like the design of the demons. Again, this whole portion of it I just really thoroughly enjoyed. I like the way it looks and everything like that. I like the superman on the litter shot. It was really great.

01:58:57
Case
Yeah. And then him pleading to his son and his son, Superman's like, no, I'll save you, dad, but I'm dead. I can't stay. And he keeps getting pulled back and pulled back, including what, a fucking line of jorl, my true father at one point.

01:59:16
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, it's like, oof.

01:59:19
Case
It's kind of harsh. But then you're like, does Jonathan Kent think that it's all his fantasy?

01:59:26
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. Is this real? This is definitely one of those is this real moments.

01:59:31
Case
But then together they go into the abyss. Yes. To protect his son, he summons the shovel by which to hit Jor El with. And that works.

01:59:46
Keith Lehtinen
It's super effective. It's pretty green Lantern X. Pure willpower.

01:59:53
Case
I mean, really, that is what it is at this point. But they go together into this black void. And Jonathan wakes up, and it then cuts to a shot of the statue of Superman and then cuts back to Jonathan, and he's like, I did it. I brought Clark back. They're like, you're crazy, Jonathan. And Lois flies home, know, gotta get back to work.

02:00:20
Keith Lehtinen
That was a really quick transition. He wakes up, she's on a plane. And I was.

02:00:28
Case
Mean, it's. It's such a long issue. And then they're like, no, we don't have time for this part.

02:00:32
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, it was very strange to me. Yeah. But I mean, they needed to set up the next shot. It makes sense because the very next page sets up more of what Paul Kent was talking about. So it makes sense. But it was very abrupt, I thought. Yeah.

02:00:51
Case
The shot here on this page is very similar to in Superman one when we've got like, mommy, look, there's a guy running by the train scene, and it's like, lois Lane. It feels like an allusion to that, but it's on a plane. So I almost wish it was like, on a train that she was traveling back to Metropolis. That'd been cool, because that shot is very similar. And they're like, oh, there's tons of superheroes. But it made me think of Clark. And then the next couple of pages are all these allusions to different people being saved by Superman types. And, like, one is clearly Bibo, but some of the other ones aren't. And in fact, we get confirmation because we do see the superboy save of the girl with the headphones.

02:01:33
Case
And I can't remember if all these other shots are ones that show up in the actual first appearances of the reign of Superman stuff. But we're getting allusions to all the different types, including the really violent one, because most of these are just like, oh, yeah, no, it's Superman. He was gorgeous. Like the one woman says, and it's like, oh, well, that's interesting. The next two are kind of fine. It's like, oh, yeah, our building was on fire and Superman saved us.

02:02:01
Keith Lehtinen
Cool.

02:02:02
Case
Oh, the nuclear power plant is going to go off. Okay, cool. And then, yeah, Superman stopped this guy. I'm okay with the fact that he's dead now.

02:02:10
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, I think it's pretty clear which one of these was steel, considering what Louis Simonson ended up writing the steel book. So we're going to look at these four side by side. I think we can. Yeah, yeah.

02:02:22
Case
We don't have to guess on any of these, really. It's obviously the eradicator on the bottom. The nuclear power plant is obviously cyborg Superman. The fire is obviously steel, and Superboy is obviously the one that saves the jaw.

02:02:34
Keith Lehtinen
He goes to the hot chick and.

02:02:37
Case
Then Bibbo saves the little girl.

02:02:38
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. Of.

02:02:42
Case
But, and then with all these sightings of Superman, Lois is like, huh, that's weird. And she goes to the statue and Inspector Henderson's also there. And they go inside and it's Superman's. The coffin is empty. He's back.

02:02:55
Keith Lehtinen
They literally.

02:02:56
Case
Sure.

02:02:57
Keith Lehtinen
They roll aside a stone door. The Jesus comparisons have never been stronger.

02:03:06
Case
It's crazy to me, but I ask you this. Did aliens from outer space who were living in our sewer system steal Jesus for a period of time on the day between the death and the rise?

02:03:17
Keith Lehtinen
There's literally a shroud in that coffin. Come on, man. I think it's funny that the first time his body disappeared, they're like, someone stole his body. And then this time they're like, no, he's definitely back.

02:03:30
Case
Right.

02:03:31
Keith Lehtinen
It's not Cadmus just trying again.

02:03:33
Case
Or is it like, did they screen for additional secret passageways or anything? Because who knows how many secret doors there could be at this point.

02:03:42
Jmike
If at first you don't succeed, six, seven eighthand times, maybe one of them will work out.

02:03:49
Case
Yeah. And also technically, it is someone who just stole the body again. True, because that's the other part of it, which is like, spoiler for the reign of the Superman and the return of Superman thing. The eradicator takes the body of Superman. It's not that Superman gets up out of his.

02:04:06
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, yeah. But I just love the certainty at this time. It's just always, no, there's no way it happened twice.

02:04:14
Case
Right.

02:04:15
Keith Lehtinen
This arc is not continuing. He just got up.

02:04:20
Case
There's no chance that the extremely interesting biological specimen that is able to do things that we thought was previously impossible, that a lot of people who have interest in just studying his DNA might have been kidnapped again.

02:04:33
Keith Lehtinen
Exactly. Yeah. So funny.

02:04:36
Case
Yeah. So that is world without a Superman. And I think it's an interesting breather in between the big fight and then the much more eye catching kind of stuff that happens with the return. It's nice just to check in with all the supporting cast because when we move on to the next story arc, a lot of that supporting cast kind of shifts away because we're going to focus on the supporting cast for the respective Superman imposters. So here's the chance to be like, yeah, no, there's a big world that we've been building up and has always been a part of Superman. It's always been about him having a circle of people he works with and knows and works, is friends with and all that.

02:05:19
Keith Lehtinen
It is kind of a pivot point for DC Comics as a whole. I kind of talked about a little bit earlier, but DC changes pretty drastically, very quickly after this, introducing, becoming more 90s, adjusting to that, and again, taking risks. People draw direct lines back to this from stuff like bane breaking Batman's back and stuff like that, taking chances like that, because this worked out so well. And so a lot of these side characters, people might not know because it's not like they're focused on in modern. That's. That's kind of like the key to that I thought was interesting was, I don't know, a lot of these, but I'm really kind of a later Superman fan is why. So I thought it was kind of like, this is a pretty important pivot point in comics in general, but especially DC.

02:06:06
Case
Yeah, we'll talk about this when we get to the reign of Superman stuff, but I feel that each of those characters are supposed to be a commentary on the state of the comics industry by the time we get to them. And we talked about this when were discussing the death, where Doomsday's design, everything about him feels in some ways like them, making commentaries about shifts that had started to occur. The fact that Louise Simonson, who was ousted by Rob Liefeld from working on new mutants, is then working on this book. And we know a big monster with giant shoulder, you know, feels very much like an image.

02:06:47
Keith Lehtinen
Don't want. I don't want to talk about rub life. We'll be here a while if we do that.

02:06:53
Case
But it certainly feels like the people who are working on Superman at this point are aware of the shift that has been occurring in comics and see what's coming, and they're trying to do the same thing that whatever happened, what's so funny about true justice in the american way? The whole, like, we're going to do the Superman versus the elite kind of concept here and be like, this is why it's bad to have a Superman that kills eradicator. This is why the morals of Superman are the thing that matters. Because of steel and being hip and cool isn't enough. You have to have something backing it. There's certainly stuff going on there. And the characters who persist are the ones who are actual heroes and not the ones who are the deconstruction of it.

02:07:38
Case
But a lot of books right now, at the time that this is being published are, like, cyborg characters or characters with energy blasts. Eradicator has a lot of Mr. Majestic kind of qualities to him, and I don't think that's an accident.

02:07:50
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. And I realize why all the writers are credited on the digital version is because there's a three page preview for each of the Superman at the. Okay, so that makes sense. So each one gets a little like, I'm Superman moment, which is kind of cool.

02:08:06
Case
Yeah, I think that's at the end of the death book. I feel like we saw that before. Maybe that's what I was thinking of. Yeah. But either way, this is such a weird little subchapter in between it all, and it's fun to see it. It's fun to be like, all right, well, what do you do in Superman when Superman is like, what kind of issue do you write?

02:08:30
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, and I do think it's very interesting. I would compare it to after Captain America died for civil War and they did that amazing five part series which was just the five stages of grief and almost nothing happened in it. And it was all about people reacting, except this is the humans, whereas that one was, how do the heroes react? And I do like the ground level of this one and specifically the characters I've mentioned this entire time, but especially the kent's seeing them react to that. It's very interesting because they're very compelling characters and they're very important part of that.

02:09:09
Case
Like, I would argue that the only character you could do this with and have it have as much impact is, like, Batman supporting characters outside of Gordon and Alfred and then the Bat family. Yeah, there's a lot of characters, but how many are going to resonate the same way and how many feel like people on the ground? Spiderman at least has the same part of it might be the newsroom aspect, whereas here's a bunch of our coworkers. But Iron man supporting cast is shifted out several times. Green lantern supporting cast is shifted out several times.

02:09:42
Keith Lehtinen
The X Men are all mutants. Yeah, no, definitely. It probably is the one with the biggest and most established human non hero cast. So. Yeah, makes sense. Even flash. Yeah, definitely.

02:09:58
Case
Yeah.

02:09:58
Keith Lehtinen
Because even Linda park has powers.

02:10:03
Case
Mean, even, like, that's still a newer character. That was filling in a void that was previously Iris. And that's the thing. What character has coworkers who we've been seeing stories with for as long as Superman? No one. Jimmy Olsen as his pal. They both work at the same newspaper and have been working together at this point for 50 years.

02:10:22
Keith Lehtinen
Right, exactly. Yeah. Spiderman is definitely a good shout as the one that makes sense to me too. Yeah, maybe. No, he's not even close. But the only one I would even think I would even pop to my head would be daredevil just because foggy and some. But it's not even to this.

02:10:39
Case
Yeah. Like, I would say those are his iconic supporting cast and have come back over time, but they've been phased out, too. There's never been a run of Superman where Lois has been phased out completely.

02:10:49
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. That makes.

02:10:51
Case
It's. It's really interesting getting this moment of, like, all got. We have this rich world and let's see how they deal with it all and let's see the impact of Superman in his absence. Like, how are people responding to it and what are the positive things about Superman? Again, I think you could skip this. I don't think there's anything that happens in this that wildly is going to change your understanding of the story. But at the same time, I think it is just a really nice, cathartic experience of going through the moments of grief with all these characters, especially, like, the Kent stuff, because that's so fucking strong. And Lois is also good.

02:11:31
Case
But the Mon Pa Kent of it all is the big reason to read this book because you're seeing these crazy moments of these two super sweet people dealing with the grief of losing their son, which, even if you're a kid and not connected to the concept of mortality. In the same way, it's still going to resonate with you in some regard because it's just so well written.

02:11:53
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, it's really great. Unfortunately, the idea of a world without a Superman is something I think DC has gone to the well, too much with. But being that this really is the first one, it's a really interesting study. When you compare it to things like 52, when it's world without Batman, Wonder Woman and Superman, and the more recent run when he's stuck on War World and John Kent has to step in this place. I do think they come to that a little too often. Maybe it's because Superman is very powerful. He's an easy answer to a lot of questions. So he's a very tricky character to write. But, yeah, just this one is that first attempt to do it. And I think they really nailed it. Especially, again, the supporting love.

02:12:35
Keith Lehtinen
I've always been a big Jimmy Olsen fan, so I love Jimmy as a character. And then obviously, Lois seeing Lana again, the Kents, it was just really cool to see that. And I think they did it as well as they could, especially the Simonson issues.

02:12:47
Case
So, yeah, we're not trying to come off as bias, but I would say of the writing team, she's the one that has the best point of view, is specifically for this. When were talking about the death issues, I didn't think that hers were as exciting as some of the others. But that's because she wants to deal with the people around. And like I said, she really likes the people on the ground. She really likes the people under the ground. She really cares about the people who are marginalized in society. And that's a theme that goes for a lot of the things she's worked on. So it's really nice to see it here in this flagship book of DC Comics.

02:13:23
Keith Lehtinen
I am trying to be biased. No, just kidding. Honestly, if I met Louise Simonson, I'd start crying. I mean, just straight up, I would just be like, I love you so much. But, yeah, I always bring it back to Powerpak because her books in this remind me of power pack. Because power pack is very ground level. Powerpak very much cares about civilians, and Powerpak very much handles real life problems. And I really liked that. And, yeah, that's what her issues of this came off of, but I didn't dislike any of it. It is much of a story of two parts, too. It's very much of the grieving. Oh, his body's gone. You know what I mean? It was kind of two parts, and I did greatly enjoy the first four issues by far. The.

02:14:08
Case
So, yeah. J Mike, any final thoughts?

02:14:13
Jmike
MVP of this whole story? Yeah, I guess with the new reboots and things coming to the DCEU, they don't have them included in there. I'm going to be very.

02:14:28
Keith Lehtinen
A great.

02:14:29
Jmike
It's a great grounded story. Like we said earlier, it focuses more on the people in the environment that people also always forget about. With all the Superman mythos stuff, everyone always forgets about all the stuff that goes around, like inner gang, the people that he goes. Turban. I forgot the other detective's name. I forget his name all the time.

02:14:46
Case
Maggie Sawyer.

02:14:47
Jmike
Yeah, like, all that stuff's always included in there, but people forget about that entire angle. So it's a good chance to see all that stuff integrate into the story that makes it hit a little bit differently.

02:15:02
Case
Bibbo is fun. He is a fun part of the reign of the Superman stuff. So he will continue to be MVP for a bit more of our reading. Yeah. Keith, I am so glad I was able to twist your arm to come on for this one.

02:15:21
Keith Lehtinen
Hey, you never have to twist my arm. I'll always give you an opinion. You just might not like the opinion. No. Thankfully, you were kind enough to invite me on to an episode that didn't actually feature Superman. So thank you for that. No, I'm kidding. I like Superman. I just like Supergirl more. That's all it is. Yeah.

02:15:42
Case
Even the Supergirl.

02:15:46
Keith Lehtinen
Man. Give me two years. Give me 1994. Give me Peter David. We've talked about that. Then we'll start talking Supergirl.

02:15:54
Case
Yeah. This is such a weird era for that character.

02:15:57
Keith Lehtinen
They also. I don't know if you know this, they did the newstime special about the death of Superman. They printed it. You can find it on DC Unlimited. And it's literally a magazine. It's great. And it uses the photos and everything, so it's really cool.

02:16:13
Case
Yeah. This was such a big publicity thing at the time. It was in the news. I was so aware of everything, even though I wasn't reading Superman monthlies at this point yet.

02:16:23
Keith Lehtinen
And it's cool because it references other things. Like, there's a letter to the editor about how Guy Gardner is a terrible person, basically. Yeah, it's really great.

02:16:32
Case
Oh, Guy Gardner. Back in the day when wizard did a poll, when the Morrison JLA was announced and they were going to expand the rosters, they were like, what leaguer would you not want to have included on the team? And he was the write in and won it by a milestone.

02:16:51
Keith Lehtinen
That's the one where. With Superman blue. Right.

02:16:54
Case
Well, eventually the opening arc was the hyperclan and he still hadn't gone blue yet.

02:16:59
Keith Lehtinen
Because I remembered a scene where they're around the table and they're like, who should we join? They're like, what about Guy Gardner? And then every other person's like, no, I just remember, love that shot.

02:17:10
Case
Yeah, fuck it. Fucking guy Gardner. Anywho, so we will be back next time to talk about the death of. Pardon me. Not the death anymore. We're done with the death. We will be back next time to talk about the return of Superman, specifically the reign of the Superman portion of the next chapter because that's pretty big. So we're going to have to split it. Yeah, we'll be back for that. Keith, if people enjoyed your insight on why Superman, a Superman comic without Superman is better than a Superman comic with a Superman, where can they find you? What have you got going on?

02:17:48
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, you can find me on a pair of podcasts. But first of all, you can find me on Twitter at podcast Keith, that is reference to my first podcast. We have issues. That is our weekly comic book podcast. We release it every Saturday morning where we review every comic that comes out, or at least it feels like it, every Wednesday. So make sure to check that out at Whipodcast on Twitter. And again, myself, whipodcast. Keith, you can also find our other show, Jukebox Vertigo. At Jukebox Vertigo, which is a certain pov joint. And make sure to check it out once again at Jukebox Vertigo. That is our musical playlist building podcast. It comes out bi weekly on Mondays.

02:18:27
Keith Lehtinen
Every episode we have a randomized category, and we have ourselves, our co host, Manda, and usually a guest or two to come in, build a playlist based around that category. It's a lot of fun. We always look forward to doing it. And we're going to start having a lot more certain pov guests, and I'm very excited about that. So make sure to check that out for both of them because I believe this is coming out before the end of December, you said, right?

02:18:50
Case
Yes. Somewhere in there, either right before the first week of January, if it is.

02:18:55
Keith Lehtinen
Still December, I want to go ahead and tell everybody, please vote in our end of the year awards. Both those Twitter accounts have the pinned tweet is the ballot, and you can vote for the best comics of the year and the best music of the year, respectively. Our awards are called the Remy's, which is recognition of excellence in media's multiple industries, which is an acronym that I came up with because I thought it was funny. So make sure to check out the vote there. We nominate everything, but you vote for the winners. So me and Jose, my co host, we vote once each and we step away and let you guys take over. And we have a lot of votes. And there is a superman adjacent book that is winning one of the categories. And I'll just give that spoiler.

02:19:36
Keith Lehtinen
And it's doing very well, and I have my fingers crossed.

02:19:40
Case
Excellent. Yes. So confirming that this will be out before the end of the month, it's going to be dropping on the 29th.

02:19:46
Keith Lehtinen
Okay, good. It closes at the 31st on midnight. I stay up and do it every year. Yes.

02:19:52
Case
So, listeners, go vote right now. Literally right now. Go vote from when this drops and force them to deal with even more votes because they have so many votes relative to previous years.

02:20:07
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah, I'm trying to see if I can download the results because I get IP addresses for each one and maybe get rid of some bots because I'm worried. We had a couple of bots, but no one category is so out of control that I thought, that's definitely a bot. So we'll see.

02:20:26
Case
Yeah. So go all check that out and then swing on by certainpov.com where you can find other great, you know, jukebox. Vertigo is a great show, but there are so many great ones. So check all those out. In the meantime, if you would like to hear our insights on anything comic related or not related. J Mike, where can they find you and follow you online for however long left?

02:20:52
Jmike
I'm on Twitter. It's jmike 101. You can find me there. I post funny things sometimes. Occasionally I try to respond to cases as much as possible.

02:21:02
Case
Yeah, this is such a weird window of time for this recording because we're all like, where's the party going to be at?

02:21:07
Keith Lehtinen
I don't know.

02:21:08
Case
I don't know. We'd all gotten used to being like, yeah, Twitter is like a safe place to plug. We don't need to worry about that thing now, the upheaval. But, yeah, for the moment, Twitter, best place me banpod to find us. Yes. Also hive and Macedon. I've got stuff set up. I don't know how to explain Macedon because I don't understand Macedon. Someone used to explain Macedon to me, but I did make a username there. But Hive and Twitter, you can find me at Keith Zagan, you can find the podcast on Twitter. At Men of Steelpod, you can find us. Well, you can find the rest of our stuff@certainpov.com. So go there, find a link to our discord. Find our shit up on the YouTube channel at Certainpov media. On YouTube. We've got both clips from this show.

02:21:58
Case
We also have our Superman analog series. So those are fun. You should check those out. I recently, as of us recording this, did a bunch of supergirls, including Matrix. And if you're like, what are we talking about? Why are they saying Supergirl's a pile of goo? Go look at that. Because I try to explain it. It's weird. But yeah, we'll be back next time, talking about the reign of the Superman with our buddy Zach Herring, who hasn't been on in a little while. But we're excited to have him back, but otherwise, just stay super man.

02:22:32
Jmike
Men of Steel is a certain POv production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and case Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm. Our logo is by Chris Batista. Episode art is by case Aiken. And our theme is by moon.

02:22:50
Keith Lehtinen
Woo woo.

02:22:52
Case
Lost the energy right there.

02:22:58
Keith Lehtinen
All right, Jose, let's go through our new comic day stack. We have a lot to review. I know. Maybe we've gone too far. Let's see. Marvel, of course. DC.

02:23:07
Jmike
I got image.

02:23:08
Case
Dark horse.

02:23:10
Keith Lehtinen
Black mask. Boom. Idw. Aftershock vault, of course. Mad cave oni. Valiant scout.

02:23:18
Case
Magma behemoth.

02:23:20
Keith Lehtinen
Wow, that's a lot. All we need now is a name for our show. We need a name for our show about reviewing comic books every week. Something clever, but not too clever like a pun.

02:23:32
Case
It's kind of cheesy.

02:23:34
Keith Lehtinen
Yeah. Something that seems funny at first, but we might regret later on as an impulsive decision. A few dozen episodes in. Yeah, we'll think of something. Join Keith and Oats way for we have issue, the weekly show reviewing almost every new comic released each week. Wherever you listen to your podcast.

02:23:50
Case
Cpov certainpov.com.

Overview:

●      The meeting began by discussing early aspects of Superman's development in comic books, focusing on Superboy's vulnerabilities and powers, including telekinetic abilities and needing an IV when unconscious. Key details of Superman's storyline were analyzed, highlighting the interconnectedness of multiple storylines post "Death of Superman" by DC Comics.

●      Podcast hosts Case Aiken and Jmike Folson delved into the death of Superman, its impact on characters like Lois Lane and Supergirl, events such as Doomsday's rampage, and character dynamics post-Superman's death, exploring themes of grief and heroism within the superhero community.

●      Louise Simonson provided a critical analysis, emphasizing character developments that go beyond traditional superhero tropes. The focus shifted toward ordinary citizens' perspectives on Superman’s influence and references to Batman intervening at Superman’s funeral procession.

●      The discussion encompassed various comic book storylines and characters, analyzing aspects like character development, plot twists, and emotional moments. Thematic elements were explored, including hero worship, ethical dilemmas, and humorous observations about character designs or lettering choices in the comics.

Notes:

●      📚 Discussion on comic issues

●      Reviewing each issue's aftermath and setup for the next story

●      Not everything wrapped up in the oversized issue

●      🎭 Character development and resonance

●      Questioning the impact and relatability of numerous characters

●      🖋️ Design and narrative control

●      Debating between controlling the narrative or letting it unfold naturally

Action items:

●      Louise Simonson

●      Ensure continuity in the story (00:00)

●      Incorporate social issues and character development effectively (41:36)

●      Louis Simonson

●      Investigate the flooding in Metropolis (1:30:39)

●      Ensure safety of the underworlders during flooding (1:31:48)

●      Ma Kent

●      Deal with emotional impact of Jonathan Kent's condition and memories (1:25:50, 1:30:33)

●      Dan Turpin

●      Follow up on violence reports in Superman's tomb (1:19:54)

●      Investigate strange occurrences related to Cadmus activities (1:21:18)

●      Guardian/Aron

●      Retrieve Superman's DNA encoding disc from Cadmus for destruction (1.29.44)

●      Protect and fight against those trying to misuse Superman's genetic code (01.30.14)

Outline:

●      Chapter 1: Initial Discussion on Comic Book Storyline (00:11 - 01:45)

●      Introduces the concept of analyzing comic book issues in detail and the need for a better introduction.

●      Mention of the podcast "We Have Issues" and the presence of Keith.

●      Chapter 2: Analysis of Storylines and Characters (03:00 - 10:38)

●      Discussion on the impact of a main character's death on the storyline.

●      Mention of different issues and side stories within the comics.

●      Insight into the character development and connections between characters like Dan Turpin.

●      Chapter 3: Focus on Continuity and Story Elements (13:14 - 25:25)

●      Emphasis on continuity editing and ensuring story elements align.

●      Notable moments and character reactions analyzed.

●      Appreciation for the effective use of story elements.

●      Chapter 4: Funeral and Aftermath Analysis (29:16 - 48:57)

●      Delving into the funeral details and aftermath of significant events.

●      Observations on character reactions and plot development.

●      Discussion on the emotional impact and storytelling composition.

●      Chapter 5: Reflection on Comic Book Writing and Impact (50:05 - 2:08:14)

●      Evaluation of writing styles and storytelling techniques.

●      Reflection on character resonation and plot significance.

●      Final thoughts on the overall impact and storytelling quality.

●      Chapter 6: Conclusion and Future Discussions (2:08:14 - end)

●      Mention of upcoming topics for discussion.

●      Information on where to find more content related to comic book reviews.

●      Credits for the podcast team and details on accessing further episodes.