Episode 133 - The Dark Knight Returns with Duke!

What is this? A podcast or an operating table? Duke is back to join Case and Jmike into the legendary book, The Dark Knight Returns… from the perspective of Superman fans.

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Meeting summary:

●      In the recent Podcast Recording meeting titled "The Dark Knight Returns," the hosts engaged in a comprehensive discussion about the iconic comic "The Dark Knight Returns." Starting with episode art options, they settled on a dynamic design featuring Superman above Batman. The conversation delved into various facets of the comic, analyzing its commentary on 1980s society, politics, and character portrayals, particularly of Batman, Superman, and new characters like Carrie Kelly. They highlighted themes such as Batman's psychological struggles post-retirement, the intense Batman vs. Superman conflict, and the significance of media influence within the story. The meeting concluded with reflections on the comic's legacy and recommendations for listeners to explore more content from the podcast network.

Notes:

●      🦸 Dark Knight Returns Discussion (00:00 - 11:48)

●      Discussed episode art options for the podcast

●      Decided on J Mike's suggestion of Superman floating above Batman

●      Introduced the topic of 'The Dark Knight Returns' comic

●      Highlighted Frank Miller's storytelling techniques and panel layouts

●      Discussed the comic's portrayal of Batman and its influence on the character

●      📚 Comic Analysis and Context (11:48 - 21:32)

●      Examined the comic's representation of 1980s society and politics

●      Discussed the portrayal of various characters, including Superman, Lana Lang, and Jimmy Olsen

●      Analyzed the comic's themes and its critique of Reagan-era politics

●      Highlighted the comic's dense storytelling and efficient use of panels

●      🦇 Batman's Return and Character Development (21:32 - 31:23)

●      Discussed Batman's return from retirement and his psychological state

●      Analyzed the introduction of Carrie Kelly as the new Robin

●      Examined the portrayal of villains, particularly Two-Face and Joker

●      Discussed the comic's commentary on media and society

●      🚀 Superman's Role and Portrayal (31:23 - 42:40)

●      Analyzed Superman's presence in the story and his relationship with the government

●      Discussed the comic's portrayal of Superman as a powerful but conflicted character

●      Examined the build-up to the confrontation between Batman and Superman

●      Highlighted the comic's use of media commentary and world events

●      💥 Batman vs. Superman Conflict (42:42 - 52:02)

●      Discussed the iconic fight between Batman and Superman

●      Analyzed the tactics and preparation Batman uses against Superman

●      Examined the weakened state of Superman due to various factors

●      Discussed the implications of the fight and its resolution

●      🎭 Character Analysis and Comic Impact (52:02 - 01:00:02)

●      Analyzed the portrayal of various characters, including Green Arrow and Carrie Kelly

●      Discussed the comic's influence on subsequent Batman and Superman stories

●      Examined the comic's legacy and its impact on the superhero genre

●      Highlighted the comic's nuanced portrayal of its characters

●      🎬 Wrap-up and Final Thoughts (01:00:03 - 01:08:56)

●      Discussed the comic's standalone nature and its sequels

●      Shared personal opinions on the comic and its various adaptations

●      Provided information on where to find the podcast hosts and guest online

●      Promoted other podcasts and content from the network

Transcription

00:00
Case Aiken
I have two possible images for the episode art for this show that we wanted you to weigh in on because was really looking for, like, a good Superman shot that I could use for the COVID like, the episode art cover. And I was like, I think I'm stuck going with the punch, like, when Batman first hits him. And then Jay Mike brought up this one where Superman is floating above Batman, and I'm like, ooh, that's also really good. And I feel like you should be the tiebreaker on this one. Cause I love them both, but I'm gonna have to vote for the one that J Mike didn't so that we're letting you decide.

00:35
Duke
So, in regards to the topic of the episode, is it going to be, like, Batman's triumph over the man or the idea that we're posthumously going like, Superman is a remote figure in the setting? Because if we do, like, Superman as a rude figure, I would go with J Mike. If we're doing, like, Batman's triumph, we go with the punch.

00:55
Case Aiken
I mean, I figured the episode would be a focus on Superman's presence in the series, like, the looming nature of him before he actually, she, like, shows up for real. And then how he is being used as this threat and, like, is being forced to operate in secrecy and invisibly.

01:11
Duke
I think J Mike wins, because that.

01:13
Case Aiken
All right.

01:13
Duke
Yay.

01:14
Jmike
J Mike wins. Throw it on the screen.

01:18
Case Aiken
All right. Yeah.

01:19
Duke
Yeah. Because that feels more in line with, like, you know, we can talk about.

01:40
Case Aiken
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, J Mike Falsen.

01:48
Jmike
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show.

01:51
Case Aiken
We are back, aren't we?

01:52
Jmike
I have mixed feelings about this one, Case.

01:55
Case Aiken
You have mixed feelings about returning?

01:58
Jmike
Kinda.

02:01
Case Aiken
Okay, well, that's. That's fair. Today we're talking about a complicated work that has been very instrumental in a lot of people's opinions about various superheroes, because today we are talking about the dark Knight returns. And to have that conversation, we've got Duke.

02:18
Duke
Hello, Duke. I'm Duke, professor of evil.

02:22
Case Aiken
Prophet of evil.

02:24
Jmike
Yeah, you have more graphics.

02:25
Case Aiken
Welcome back. Welcome back. There you go.

02:30
Jmike
That's it.

02:31
Duke
Which is. Which is funny, because, like, I commend Frank Miller for writing Batman with the very kind of a very quiet, ethereal voice like Tommy punk. You have a mother, don't you? Which I always preferred that Batman, where he's very calm and well articulated. Articulated for this phantasm.

02:51
Case Aiken
It's interesting, looking at this piece and reflecting on it from, not a work of, like, here is the modern opus about Batman, but here's the very eighties, like, epitome of Batman. Like, here's the mid eighties, like, exploration of the character, but having a bit more distance. Really, like, made me look at this as a product of its time. And, like, thinking about it in the framing of, like, here's all the Batman that led up to this point. And, like, here's, like, the pop culture awareness of the character, and it actually fits very well if you just see it as a, oh, yeah, well, you know, we, the sixties Batmandeh was legit, and then eventually, like, some people died.

03:30
Duke
Yeah. I mean, I've always loved the idea that, like, you know, throughout each issue, he's working his way through different Batman costumes, you know, invocative of the different eras of his life. Granted, he doesn't rock out with the really sick golden age Batman costume with the purple gloves and the right, and.

03:47
Case Aiken
The giant, like, ears.

03:49
Duke
Yeah. But, like, you feel like, obviously, the very on the nose visual progression of him slowly kind of losing himself to the beast, the wolf, as he thinks of it, as this snarling hunger of a predator waging in his heart, you know?

04:07
Case Aiken
Mm. Oh, real quick, I just want to mention this because you just made me think of it, saying the wolf made me think about 300 with the wolf scene. And I didn't want to forget that. There's a spot where they have a porn star named hotgates, which is the translation for Thermopylae. And you can see that Frank Miller was dealing with, like, in his head 300 stuff, even all the way back in 1986.

04:29
Duke
They're going to, like, ask on TikTok, like, hey, Frank, what's your favorite movie? And you can't say the 300 Spartans over and over again, right?

04:37
Case Aiken
Three favorite movies. No, you can't. You can't, you can't say that each time. Like, can't say that. Period.

04:42
Duke
Four different movies, Frank. What do you mean, meet the Spartans? What the hell?

04:49
Case Aiken
What if that was just like, his entire pantheon of movies are movies that are like the, in some way it's.

04:57
Duke
Like, oh, I fucking love airplane, actually. No, like, airplane's easy because that one's actually good. But, like, yeah, just, God, I love epic movie, Frank.

05:08
Case Aiken
Yes. Come on, Frank. Me, the Spartans. No, come on. Anyway, moving on. Because we could just riff about, like, Frank Miller for a little too long on that one. And I don't really want to get, go there too much because, like, his, his post 911 craziness is not on display at this point. He has strong opinions about politics at this point, but they are much more Gen X libertarian than anything else. There's a lot of, like, fuck the man, regardless of which man we're talking about.

05:38
Duke
Yeah. Like, one's either totalitarian fascist and the other one's bleeding heart that will basically just excuse any crime and that cannot be, you know, forgiven.

05:49
Jmike
How dare you? They invented therapy the entire time. And we feel bad for them.

05:54
Duke
Even, like, Kerry Kelly's parents. Like, they're very much framed in, like, you know, went on the hippie movements. We did our part. This whole place is sliding to fascism. And their daughter's completely bored with them because it's like, it's always the same kind of like, well, we, you know, we did the marches and we did the, you know, praise for this. We've, you know, reached out for this. And Kerry's like, I need a. I need something else in my life. I need to be a robin.

06:22
Case Aiken
Yeah.

06:23
Duke
I need an old man constantly threatening to fire me. And since J. Jonah James is here, not here, I guess he'll go work for Batman.

06:29
Case Aiken
Yeah. I mean, like, this is very much like a rage against the boomers had already started at this point in the eighties. Yeah. So obviously, we want to talk about this from the lens of Superman, but, you know, we can still kind of go issue because Superman is a specter that haunts the book for the first two issues. And then three, he starts being teased out a bit more and then he becomes the ultimate end boss of the story at the end. And there's a whole bunch of stuff I want to talk about in this, and we can go bit by bit. But I had forgotten how much the deck was stacked against Supermande by the time you get to the finale. It is remarkable.

07:16
Case Aiken
I remembered always that he gets hit by the nuke, but I forgot about the whole nuclear winter blackout that is going on that has created just soot up in the air and keeping everything eternally night. And just how rough Superman has it by the time he shows up for this fight, because he hasn't even had actual sunlight to nourish him. He's just been draining plants, which Batman's.

07:43
Duke
Man. Great timing. Fuck it. Put the suit on. Let's go to work.

07:49
Case Aiken
I mean, sure, strike while the iron is hot. Like, that is a thing Batman does pretty well throughout this whole book.

07:54
Duke
Robin, help me with this middle corset. Come on.

07:58
Case Aiken
So why don't we take it back to the beginning, and we can knock out each of the earlier issues with just our general comments and also have general thoughts about what Superman is being. Is being used at this point in the issue. And so the first issue is when he actually comes back. And this was the one, I would argue, has, like, the least Superman presence. Again, it builds over the course of this, all to the point where I don't think there is a direct reference to him in this.

08:22
Duke
Yeah, I don't think so. So the first issue is very strong in the sense of, like. And it always impresses me how very rapid fire, very efficient storytelling is on display here. Not just the crushing, but how conversationally, like, obviously, you have the talking heads. And, boy, does Frank Miller love talking heads in his Batman comics, but it is so tightly written. And I just love just seeing how, like, God, I know we're supposed to be talking about Superman, but, like, artistically speaking, of course, like, my favorite section is when we get to the Arkham home, right? And, you know, we're seeing the doctors, like, walk through. And then for 602, the panel splits in half. And throughout the entire scene, the panel is split in half until we see both sides of Harvey Dent.

09:22
Duke
And he's supposed here and again, very tighten, very efficient. This is why, like, you know, frank Miller, you know, say what? Say what you will about the guy, and you are fundamentally right in whatever you say. There is something so striking about how this man does fucking layouts and how he really writes. He tells a story with panels.

09:49
Case Aiken
This is a denser book that I think people realize. Yeah, were saying before we started recording that, like, it's, you know, people talk all the time about, like, the nine panel grid for, like, watchmen. But looking at this, like, man, it is. There's so much information being conveyed per page.

10:06
Duke
Yeah, it's. It's. I don't want to sound like that Star wars producer who says it's so dense, but there, you know, like, there is just a natural rhythm to it. And it's so efficient in just, you know, like, from. From using, like, silhouettes to just, you know, just the composition of every single panel that you really kind of just pulls you into it. This is kind of why, you know, like, when you. When you look at. Look at adaptations like, the animated movies, to me, it's like, you lose a lot when you're adapting to animated movie because you can't do the panel. You can't do the panel work. You can't really fill out a page. You're basically, you just have one widescreen panel, and that's all the information you convey.

10:55
Duke
So if you're going to do an adaptation, you either work within that medium to spiritually tell the same kind of story with the same kind of attention, or you just tell something very stripped down here. I've always recommend, like, read the comic first and just let it, like, absorb it and absorb the techniques that practice here because you can learn a lot and you can learn a lot about writing, especially when you're dealing with a. Is it 1980s? It's like a post apocalyptic 1980s kind of hellscape where, you know, we gave up.

11:27
Case Aiken
Yeah, I mean, post apocalyptic is not the right word for it, but because it is very much like the eighties as it was.

11:35
Duke
But.

11:36
Case Aiken
Cause, like, it's kind of the perspective of, like, all right, well, earth one Batman, like, sixties. Batmandhouse starting point in the sixties and then, like, having adventures for about 20 years and then being here. Yeah. Because, like, they say Jim Gordon was commissioner for 26 years. So, like, this is a scenario where, like, Batman is, like, about age appropriate for just the Batman that we've always kind of known, especially, like, with the references to, like, Hal and, you know, Oliver. Well, Hal's the only one that's, like, really an issue because, like, Oliver Queen is, of course, also a golden age character, and Diane is also a golden age character. So it could be that it.

12:12
Duke
And then eventually Barry Allen and the.

12:14
Case Aiken
Other eventually Barry Allen, but he's not referenced, I believe, in.

12:17
Jmike
I didn't see this. I didn't see him in here.

12:19
Case Aiken
Yeah, I didn't see his name in this one. I know he has a part in the sequel series.

12:23
Duke
Yeah, I am not doing that.

12:25
Case Aiken
No, no, we're not jumping. We're not chomping at the bit to talk about that one.

12:30
Jmike
I also like the fact that I was telling case a little while ago that, throughout the early parts of the book, they're doing a good, they're doing the whole, like, hulk and Bruce type thing where, like, one is trying to be more dominant than the other. And, like, every time Bruce is alone, that Batman's, like, egging him on the entire time. And I was like, yes, they're finally, like, letting him be psychotic for a change, letting people know that he's kind of crazy. He's not all there.

12:52
Case Aiken
Yeah. I was thinking about this in relation to the career that Frank Miller had. Like, he was poached from Marvel at this point, and it was like, a big deal that he was coming over to do a Batman story. And I can't help but think about, like, there's, like, a spot where it just is born again. And I was thinking about, like, all of his daredevil work, like, both born again and the man without fear, the origin story for him. Both have scenes where the hero is kind of possessed that way, and it feels like, oh, yeah. Just a reminder, a lot of people who want to write a Batman story end up doing that story on Daredevil. If you look at the Ben Affleck Daredevil movie that was supposed to be a Batman movie, clearly everyone just wanted to make Batman.

13:34
Duke
Clark did leave a voicemail in issue one.

13:36
Case Aiken
Okay, cool.

13:37
Duke
And so does Selena, which does set her up, even though, like, God, she gets a badge.

13:45
Case Aiken
Yeah. Yeah. This is definitely the Frank Miller interpretation of Selina Kyle. Like, she's a madam in the series. And, like, you know, just a year later, we would get year one where, you know, they establish her as being a prostitute, which is just, you know.

13:59
Duke
All right, Frank. Sure.

14:00
Case Aiken
Yeah, Frank.

14:01
Duke
Like, I mean, I get it. Like, that your bread and butter. That's your genre.

14:05
Jmike
But, like, not every person has to do that, be original, Daniel.

14:10
Case Aiken
Not every female hero has to be a hooker.

14:13
Duke
Right.

14:13
Case Aiken
And we're saying this having all red Sin city, like, it's just how it is. Like, Frank, we get it. It's fine. You don't. You don't have to make the characters who are already cool into. Into prostitutes. But that's. Besides the .1 thing I want to bring up that I think is really cool is that we have the Jason Todd death, which is two years before a death in the family. And so in this, it's just a, like, oh, yeah. Well, like, it makes sense that, like, you know, a casualty would be a reason why the guy would have stepped down, you know, the same way in kingdom come with. With Lois Lane being killed by the Joker.

14:51
Duke
Right.

14:52
Case Aiken
And it's so fascinating that, like, two years later, it actually happening. Kind of canonizes it as, like, Batman lore in a, like, probably the most lasting impact of this overall series.

15:03
Duke
Yeah. Which I've always assumed that, like, initially, when I read this for the first time back in 2008 when I was years old, I was 18 2018, I was under the impression that, like, okay, so death and family have been first. And Frank Miller clearly wrote this as a reaction to that.

15:25
Case Aiken
Right.

15:25
Duke
Because I do know later on, Frank Miller is like, oh, that poor Robin. That poor kid. And I'm thinking you wrote a seminal Batman book where he died and Batman quit. And I think even Alan Moore read the same sentiments like, oh, that whole Jason Todd fella, what a bloody way to end. It's like, what, Alan?

15:45
Case Aiken
Yep. Yeah, no, this and or not this. So much death in the family and killing Joe both have definitely had weird impacts on Batman lore as a whole. But for a while, it seemed to be the canon of the time, and this sort of felt like a canon end for the character from that perspective because it seemed to be appealing to just what the events of the day were, even though somehow it was actually two years prior. More inspiring that choice than anything else, which I just find fascinating, just because it, like you, it just seemed to be. Well, no, just Jason Todd dies like that. Everyone knows that. And then. And then they undid it. So that's kind of changed that perspective.

16:32
Case Aiken
But, I mean, the iconography of the rabbin, of the rabin suit, the iconography of the robin suit in the Batcave is so huge that it's been replicated in numerous times. For example. Yeah. Like, people just keep wanting to put.

16:46
Duke
That there, which, you know, that Batman movies nowhere, anywhere at all inspired by the Dark Knight returns at all.

16:56
Case Aiken
No, in no way whatsoever.

16:58
Duke
No way at all.

16:59
Case Aiken
No. Anyway, so issue one mostly deals with just shit's gotten really bad. Batman has been retired for a while. He's.

17:10
Duke
He's basically living in, like, a perpetual funk.

17:13
Case Aiken
Yeah. And around this time is when two face makes his reappearance. They supposedly being cured of both his psychoses and his physical ailments. And yet it's revealed that because he immediately goes back to a life of crime. As soon as he's released, like, there's no pause at all. He just goes right back to it. It's revealed ultimately when Batman defeats him. And we get some very cool, big splash pages for this whole sequence. Like Batman coming out of retirement and like, yeah. Struggling to do well. This is. This is where we get the, like, the shot where he's, like his chest has exploded. Right. Or like the. Or rather the sniper shots have.

17:53
Duke
Yeah, they hit him. And you see the. The chest plate behind the symbol, which I always loved. I always, like, you know, loved kind of like this, like, kind of the uncertain decline of, like, oh, my God, is this Batman do it? Is he gonna kill somebody? Because you see what the. Right, like, the sniper rifle, it's like, oh, he's going to take the shot and he just shoots, like, a little, like, little trip wire, like a little rope to the helicopter so he can like, tiptoe on it, you know, this big brick shit house tiptoeing on a rope to a helicopter, which is delightfully Batman even in that size.

18:25
Duke
And then more and more, you see him, like, come near guns, and it's either he dismantles the gun or in the case where, like, the SWAT team is, you know, basically going into the tunnel of love, and he set up a plastic explosive. You see this big man with his giant hands try to fumble with this little handgun to shoot a plastic, like, a c four thing. And he does shoot it off, but it looks completely like he doesn't know what to do with this thing because he's so, like, all right, cool, I'm gone. And he just runs away. Like, to me, the most interesting visual is Batman holding a little handgun. And he looks like, how do I do this?

19:08
Case Aiken
My boxer hands from hitting my hands.

19:11
Duke
He's like, you know, I have big, strong hands.

19:15
Case Aiken
Yeah. Batman is a brick shit house in the series. Like, this is the series that creates that look for the character.

19:22
Duke
And I love it.

19:24
Jmike
I feel like we skipped over the important part, though. It's the whole thing where Batmandhead, I would say, interrogating the two faced thug, and he pulls out the coin. But, like, on the next panel, you see, like, back in Arkham, everyone's watching the news, and it pans over to the joker, and Joker gets his, like, his. His. His moment of awareness back.

19:50
Duke
Yeah.

19:50
Jmike
His smile starts to come back because he sees, like, batman's back now. Oh, that's pretty freaking cool.

19:57
Case Aiken
Yeah, he's coming out of, like, of pause mode.

20:01
Jmike
While that was going on, the smile just bigger and bigger.

20:05
Case Aiken
Another thing I want to bring up in issue one is that Lana Lang is a recurring newscaster in this series.

20:11
Jmike
I wasn't sure if that was her or not.

20:13
Duke
That was her.

20:13
Case Aiken
Okay. Yeah. It's not just Lana, but, like, there's a point where they call her Miss.

20:17
Duke
Lang and Jimmy or James Olsen. He's, what, running GBS?

20:25
Case Aiken
Yeah, that's what they say.

20:26
Duke
Yeah. And writing, like, articles about, like, superheroes, and we don't see them. I don't think we see them. We definitely see him in the next one, the next book.

20:35
Case Aiken
We don't see Jimmy in this one.

20:37
Duke
Yeah. Which I like the idea that, like, Jimmy becomes editor in chief, because then you find out Lois Titan directs again. Right.

20:48
Case Aiken
Yeah. They don't tell us what happens to Lois on this one.

20:51
Duke
Yeah, because I don't take Lois whatever. I'm like, piloting the desk kind of person. She's always on the street, marching to her own orders. So. Yeah, Jimmy Olsen taking over. That's nice.

21:06
Case Aiken
Yeah. And it made sense that Lana would remain as a newscaster at that point. Like, you know, if this is the Bronze Age continuity, like, she would be, you know, a news, like a news person of some renown. And this is like, yeah, it makes sense that if she's been doing this for like 20 years at this point, then, like, yeah, she's put on some weight and gotten older. Like, that makes sense.

21:31
Duke
Yeah.

21:31
Case Aiken
And I, and I like that she's not just the same person because time has moved on for all these characters.

21:36
Duke
And, you know, it's Superman, like in secret. And I'm guessing Clark Kent's not really much of a anymore. It never felt like he was still reporting in this story.

21:47
Jmike
No, not here. No.

21:49
Case Aiken
I mean, like, they don't flat out confirm that he's not, but it seems that the only times we see him is in Clark mode is he's acting as an agent of the state.

21:58
Duke
Yeah. So he could just be a correspondent.

22:01
Case Aiken
Reporter or they just have given up on that entire precedent.

22:07
Duke
Oh, Superman, you need to be my agent. Sure thing, Mister Reagan, sir.

22:12
Case Aiken
Well, I mean, we'll get to that.

22:15
Duke
I mean, it's a lot more complicated. And even as I, the guy who rages his, you know, who wages a war against John Byrne and everything, I've always conceded that this book does it well because it's not as like he loves the guy. It's more like this was a compromise I had to make because otherwise we would tilt the, you know, the access and cause chaos. And I felt like this feels more motivated to the spirit of Superman as like, Bruce, it was either this or be criminals. And I'm not going to fight humanity. That's not what I am. I'd rather do everything I can to belong amongst them.

22:50
Case Aiken
Yeah. The take of this being a terrible compromise as opposed to him being like, a government lapdog, I think is a more interesting and nuanced argument that I actually would allow Frank Miller to have made a. Yeah. Like, I don't know if I would have allowed Frank Miller of 2008 to make it, but Frank Miller of 1986 is, like I said, he's a little bit of a disaffected Gen Xer ranting against the hellscape that the baby boomers have ushered in. But aside from that, he seems to, he at least sees the bullshit hypocrisy of the institutional powers of the time and I think that the book supports this. Reagan is not presented in a particularly, like, you know, gleaming light. I can see how you would read it as. As that if you were like, such a.

23:39
Case Aiken
Like a reaganite that you can't even see the. Like the. The sarcasm that's inherent in every shot with the character, especially with.

23:46
Duke
With his dialogue coming off as, like, he. He might have, like, some kind of onset of, like, dementia. The way kind of, like, rap. Like, you know, rambles in his sentences. Like, there. There's points where it's like, oh, yeah. Like a metal. I like metals. Do you like metal, son? No, sir. Of course. Of course.

24:05
Case Aiken
That actually made me wonder. So the nickname the great communicator, did that start as a sarcastic line from a Democrat? And then they co opted it the same way that fake news used to be. Us venting about the bullshit articles that our parents would share, and then it became the rallying cry of all traditional big media is, quote unquote, fake news or woke or, you know, in any term that, like, co opted to become a slur. Is this the reverse of that, where it was like, the great communicator was initially us making fun of Reagan, and then they were like, yeah, the great communicator. The great communicator.

24:40
Duke
Yeah, probably. Yeah.

24:42
Case Aiken
Which is wild to think about.

24:44
Duke
Yeah. And to me, like, it does. Again, I love how, like, Frank tells the story with his art because obviously, you know, you had that, like, introduction of, like, the waving american flag as the red and white stripes slowly curl into the red Superman's shield.

25:03
Case Aiken
And that's a really good shot.

25:05
Duke
Fantastic. Again, Frank Miller always knocks us out of the park.

25:08
Case Aiken
Incidentally, Frank Miller of this era always knocks it out.

25:12
Duke
Always knocks it out of the park because that guy knew how to do a, knew how to do sequential storytelling. Incidentally, I was reading some old daredevil comics, and when he comes on, it's like night and day where it's like, shit. Somebody was young and hungry and really wanted to prove that he can fucking tell a story with his panel work because he does not, like, he has no. No fat, no empty spaces. Everything is concise, it's tight, and it flows well together. Like, he was, like, operating on his own fucking level. And you see it here and you see it in, like. Like, the panel breakdowns. And, you know, kids, you know, before we all did widescreen panels because they did it in the Wildstorm comics, we used to do smaller panels, too.

26:03
Duke
And sometimes you can tell a lot of information and convey a lot with smaller panels, which is talking heads.

26:11
Case Aiken
Yeah, lots of exposition.

26:15
Duke
Yeah. It's weird because, like I said, like, there's good exposition. There's awful exposition. Good expositions, like Batman and Gordon having, like, coffee and talking about Jason, and Batman doesn't say. Bruce Wayne doesn't say anything. And Gordon's like, I'm sorry. I should not break it up. That's good exposition. Conversational, quick, and efficient. And then you get to the talking head debate between the problem with Batman and the problem with, like, no tolerance crime fighting. And it's like, this could have been trimmed a little bit.

26:42
Case Aiken
Yep.

26:43
Duke
But it's not as excessive as it could be, and it will be.

26:49
Case Aiken
Right. I would argue that the book is ultimately dense in a way that is interesting and revelatory if you're coming from a much simpler era of comic book making, and not overly indulgent, but it is a little indulgent to the point where it's fine, the story is good, and there's a lot of useful elements of the media that is presented in this. I particularly like the teasing out of characters. The. The teasing out of, like, oh, like, a person dressed as Dracula. You don't think, oh, my God. You know, like, hinting at, like, the awareness of Batman being back or later, where the one reporter is just, like, t. You know, like, fully, like, just making jokes about, like, oh, yeah. Like, faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than locomotive, which, you know, like.

27:40
Duke
Again, like, that's always been fun reading that because frick knows how to juxtapose, like, fashion, speed, bullet, something with Superman. And it's so good because he's slowly building up to the image of Superman holding up that tank.

27:57
Case Aiken
Yeah.

27:58
Duke
And it's like. And then painting the reality and this world. Superman has entered the Cold War, but it's clear that it's not something he wanted to do.

28:08
Case Aiken
Right. And I think the series does a really good job of conveying the awe of Superman when we start to get into that. And I believe that's the next issue. Right. That when we get him, like, rushing by.

28:19
Duke
Issue three had to be the one where he deals with. What's her name? Bruno. The lady with the swastika.

28:28
Jmike
Oh, yeah.

28:29
Duke
Chad and bat. But Frank. What's that? Frank, talk to me about Bruno. Pull us. No, no, don't. Don't quote Encanto. We do talk about Bruno. What is this?

28:44
Case Aiken
Is Bruno the painted up horror one?

28:46
Duke
No, it's not.

28:48
Case Aiken
Oh, that one. Oh, God. Hang on. Before we move on, because it issue three issue two, one thing I do want to mention as a reference to Superman he makes in this when he brings out the Batmobile and he says that the only thing that can cut through it isn't from this world.

29:04
Duke
Isn't from this world. That's right.

29:05
Case Aiken
And it's such a nice little, like, offhanded reference because, like, later Superman will tear into it.

29:10
Duke
Yeah.

29:11
Case Aiken
And we'll be reminded, oh, that's it. But in a context, divorced of Superman. Like, it could mean, like, oh, nothing on this. Like, nothing on this planet couldn't pierce the tank.

29:21
Duke
Right.

29:22
Case Aiken
You know, it seems like a boast, but it's actually like, no, it's a very astute, like, yeah, no. There is a thing that could easily pierce through this tank, and that is a government agent.

29:31
Duke
It is Lebroni man who lives in the mountains with eagles.

29:36
Case Aiken
The big man.

29:37
Duke
The big man. Yeah. I always wondered if Frank, quietly for all star Superman took the hair swoop from Frank Miller, because Superman does that, like, nice big old, not pompadourian, but that hair swoop, that goes upwards. And it kind of looks a lot like how it was in the other book.

29:59
Case Aiken
Yeah. Last thing I want to say about issue two before moving on to his actual appearances. Issue two, the fight with the mutant leader, is kind of a precursor to the Superman fight in the sense that the mutant leader is not defeated through raw power. He's faster, stronger, tougher than Batman. It's that Batman is ultimately Sparta and pulls out a bunch of tricks to defeat him in a physical match. And you can see how this one going to the Superman one is just a leveled up version of the same basic fight dynamic.

30:29
Duke
Yeah, it's Batman kind of like rethinking himself with the, with his own city to kick out anything that would dare take it away from him. So with me and Leo, it's like I'm covered in the mud. I've lived here. I've lived in the mud. I'm the surgeon. This is operating table. But Superman's like, I took him to cry Malley. And I'm powered by the city's electrical grid itself.

30:52
Case Aiken
Yeah. Which will save that more conversation when we get to that. But I did just want to point out that the dynamic is the same with the mutant thing and that it is set up that, like, oh, yeah, this is why Batman is important. It's not, it's not just he's like, oh, he's just so smart. Like, we need examples of it. And both fights show that baby doesn't.

31:12
Duke
Need to arrange a fight where Superman callously knocks him through a very specific building that just happened to have the kryptonite weapon ready for him. Thank God. Superman knocked me through this building. Not that building or that building or that bus, but, yeah.

31:28
Case Aiken
So getting into the next issue, we get this wonderful, teased out introduction of Superman, concluding with Kerry Kelly being in awe of him moving away. Something leaps. A tall building with a single bound. And it's just like, oh, yeah. In a world where superheroes aren't prevalent, the superhero is, like, kind of amazing. Like, when they are leaving, she's like, was that him?

31:58
Duke
Yeah, but, you know, like, I've always questioned, like, if this is supposed to be kind of like a continuation of the earth one, guys. It's like, how do you keep that Superman?

32:10
Case Aiken
I know.

32:11
Duke
Especially if, like, you consider, like, silver age Superman, who had a big deal about his public image to the point where I, a girl who is blind is like, I don't believe you exist. I'll show you a thing or two about that. Come on, little girl. I could fly. I just feel the wind brushing against my hair. Oh, so you again? I can lift car again, I guess, sir. And he's like, oh, wait, I cured your blindness. Oh, my God. Superman, you're real. You're my favorite superhero. Yes, I am. Bye. He flies off. That's a real issue. But, like that, like, silver Age Superman was all about his public image and all about, like, you know, the. The idea that he's living up to this expectation that he himself is a crumbling mess inside.

33:00
Duke
And it could be like, frank Miller saying, like, he's sacrificed so much that he had to put that aside in order to do this thing? But I'm like, wouldn't people be like, hey, what happened to the guy in the big blue long johns who, you know, gets really mad if we forget his name? Not so much bronze age. Bronze age. Kind of melt the fuck out.

33:22
Case Aiken
Yeah. And arguably, we're coming from that era. We can't pretend that this isn't a Superman influenced by the movies at this point. This is 1986. We're well in the throes of the Christopher Reeve incarnation being super iconic and very much shaping how people view Superman in media in general at this point. And again, if you're looking at it just from, like, here's kind of a classic, but not like, people, literally, the second episode of this show was us discussing the Silver Age Superman and, like, how people often equate the Silver Age Superman with the classic Superman. But I don't think that's actually true. I think the Silver Age Superman is much weirder than what people actually think of when they think of just, like, classic Superman.

34:08
Case Aiken
That's because the movies and, like, the Fleischer cartoons and all these things, like, take it back a couple notches. But the Silver Age is so fucking weird. Like, Laurie Lemaris is such a huge character in the pantheon of it, the legion of superheroes. The amount of stuff we know about Krypton, the fact that the amount of.

34:23
Duke
Red kryptonite stories in which it's like, oh, no. Goodness me. My boil turned into the head of Vance Vivian Jones, great opera singer. And now it's singing. I had to cover it up with lead tape. Superman, are you okay? Do I hear opera singing? No, Jimmy, no. Bye. Flies off like, that's over in Superman.

34:43
Case Aiken
Where it's like, these are frequent time travel stories, the Superboy stuff.

34:47
Duke
Like the imaginary.

34:51
Case Aiken
Imaginary stories. Yeah.

34:52
Duke
Like, yeah.

34:52
Case Aiken
So just random issues are just gonna be, like, non canon. Like, here you go. Like, Silver Age Superman is just so much weirder than all that. And I think that this is classic Superman, which is again, like, reigned back a little bit. Like, you might be aware that he was Superboy, but you don't know that much about Superboy being like a time traveler to the era of the Legion of superheroes and having these huge, grandiose adventures in space.

35:17
Duke
It's the platonic ideal of Superman you would see on a lunchbox where it's like, you get the gist of it, Krypton, Kansas, here. And then he does the right thing and he represents some kind of lofty american ideals.

35:31
Case Aiken
Yeah. That's what we're dealing with here. And so when we get him face to face with Batman and, you know, it opens with, when I say face to face is like, kind of ironically, he's looking away from him, but we get this, like, giant shot of Superman, like, as Clark Kent, but with, like, billowing shirts. Just incredibly, like, daddy in this, like, moment right there.

35:58
Duke
Yeah.

36:01
Case Aiken
And this, like, veiled threat that he has to give Batman in this moment. And just like, this is like, I can't work around this, man. Like, you're fucking my shit up. And, like, I need to be able to work this way because, like, and they show it, like, there's, you know, missiles coming. There's natural disasters that Superman is, like, attending to. There's big issues that Superman is fielding just moving so fast that no one can see him.

36:26
Duke
Yeah.

36:27
Case Aiken
And they do such a good job of conveying how wondrous this man of steel is in this moment.

36:36
Duke
He's basically this walking giant who stooped too low to humanity. And Bruce, feeling like you really kind of screwed it up, Clark, you could have called the shots. You could have changed things around. You could have done so much more. But, but instead, you know, you're basically working under the thumb of this idiot in charge. And for Clark, it's like, because once you get to the warhead thing, you get the idea that he's maintaining the cold war as it is, because if it weren't for him, it would just descend into chaos, as you see. And it's, and like, I like the fact that there is nuance to it, that there, that this superman does have an argument to make even though it's clear that we're going to be reading for Batman because he's our guy, you know, he's the one that there.

37:38
Duke
He's daring to fight anything. Like I've always, I jokingly used to call Darknet returns, like the gurn log in Batman story where he just kind of works his way up the ladder, any kind of corruptive influence.

37:52
Jmike
Interesting.

37:54
Duke
If Dark Knight returns continued at this theme, he'd be fighting Darkseid or some shit with a drill.

38:00
Jmike
I mean, a lot of people seem to think that he could do it. Cough, cough.

38:08
Case Aiken
But you could picture that panel, though, where just, like, Darkseid, you're the God of death. I'm here to pray. Unless I'm grabbing. Yeah, no, I mean, like, I think that the argument that is being made in this book prior to them actually coming to blows is similar to when Batman and the outsiders came out, where it was just the idea that the Justice League was too big and that Batman needed to be able to focus on Gotham, needed to be able to focus on the smaller issues, because in issue three, Superman is dealing with these big world issues which are, at this point, mostly, like, military conflict stuff, but is theoretically on doing the right thing in this, like, as far as his judgment goes, he's, like, preventing war from getting worse and, like, keeping the casualties to a minimum.

38:54
Case Aiken
And, like, you know, taking everything from the best possible standpoint, it's still slanted.

38:59
Duke
Towards, like, american imperialism. But, like, you kind of see that this is a sacrifice he had to make.

39:06
Case Aiken
Right. And you can see how a person who doesn't necessarily agree with that situation is, in his own way, perpetuating it.

39:12
Duke
Yeah. And for me, again, it makes sense because, like, if you. I, because I'm all about themes and, like, you know, kind of like how characters work and how their stories are built around. If you see stor, if you see Superman as a story of basically an outsider essentially trying to figure out his way into the system or to be the one to solve the system, then the furthest extreme of him trying to assimilate into the system is to be a kind of, like, unwilling ally to a president in this scenario, because it's all he has left.

39:50
Case Aiken
Yeah. A president who is made very clear is kind of a joke. Like, he always shows up in suits that are, like, covered with, like, stars.

40:00
Jmike
So many stars.

40:02
Duke
And. Yeah. Even in the context of the story, it's like he's, like, a lot older. He's in a scooter. He's balder. Right. Like, that was him. Right? Like, he's, like, a lot more decayed. Reagan.

40:13
Case Aiken
Well, he looks very decayed, but, like, I don't think he's supposed to be, like, I still think it's supposed to be 1986. It's just a 1986 that is looked at with the most cynical and dystopic view of things.

40:25
Duke
He's more of a caricature of himself.

40:27
Case Aiken
Yeah. I don't think that they're presenting him as being like, this is a. It's not like Nixon in Watchmen, wherever. It is actually, like, ten years after his actual presidency at that point. So, anyway, moving on to issue four. So issue four, anyone who is wondering, well, why are they talking about a Batman comic on their Superman podcast hasn't seen the COVID to issue four, which is Superman in silhouette, just standing there, ready to take on an armored Batman. And I like the tease of what the mech armor of Batman would be. Is that a cape? Are those wings? What are we looking at here? But it's clearly some kind of, like, robot Batman.

41:10
Duke
Batman builds himself into Robocop to fight Superman. And if you think that's weird, watch robocop three and get back to me.

41:18
Case Aiken
Yeah, no, Frank Miller is a big fan of mecha hero characters. I forgot to mention in issue three, the weird fucking kid bomb robot that the Joker has. Yeah.

41:30
Duke
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

41:31
Case Aiken
Made me think of Astro boy. And Frank Miller is, of course, also the co creator of big guy and Rusty.

41:36
Duke
Big guy and rusty. Yeah.

41:38
Case Aiken
So he is, like, a huge fan of, like, that archetypal, like, robot thing, which is, like. Like, the closest thing I can guess is what we're looking at here.

41:46
Duke
Yeah. Frank Miller contains a lot of multitudes.

41:49
Case Aiken
Right. It's so weird, but, yeah. So this is the issue where things come to a head Joker having, like, faked having died, but having faked his murder.

41:59
Duke
Yeah. Joker. Yeah.

42:01
Case Aiken
Or pins his death on Batman, we should say. Sets up even more scrutiny on Batman. So things have been escalated just in general. Frank Miller really likes having Batman kind of be okay with the authorities when he's doing things that work with them. We also see this in year one. It's only when he starts to cross certain lines that they get pissed off with him. And that's been the overall story of this series up until this point, which is that he's kind of condoned while it's useful. And now that it's starting to become like he's amassing an army, he's really kind of changing the way systems are working now. We actually have to strike him down. He's starting unions.

42:43
Duke
Right.

42:44
Case Aiken
We can't work with these people.

42:46
Duke
It would be like Taylor Swift mobilizing the swifties to take over.

42:52
Jmike
They're unstoppable.

42:53
Duke
God, there's billions of them. I knew there was something wrong when she said, order 60. Swift.

43:01
Case Aiken
And I would certainly have money on the swifties over the sons of the Batman. Even though I do think it's rather fun.

43:06
Duke
There are many. They are legion.

43:09
Case Aiken
I think it's a fun concept there. Like, all the mutants, they have just no idea what to do, and so they all kind of splinter off into weird directions, and it becomes very much the warriors.

43:17
Duke
Yeah, well, if that makes the wolf, then he's the alpha, so the pack must follow him.

43:25
Case Aiken
Also, I want a shout out. So when the rocket is being intercepted by Superman, there is a miracle man reference on that page. If you look at bottom right, there's just those, like, portly miracle man character in the issue. And I just want to call attention to all the fun nerddom that goes on in this book, because I don't think people remember that. It is actually quite fun.

43:45
Duke
Yeah.

43:46
Jmike
Which one?

43:47
Case Aiken
So when the. When Superman goes to intercept the rocket and it's got the. It's the first panel where he's on the same. Or first page where he's on the same panel with the rocket itself, it's like one widescreen at the top, then.

44:00
Jmike
Oh, I see it. Okay.

44:02
Case Aiken
Yeah.

44:02
Duke
Gordon's just walking by himself.

44:06
Case Aiken
Yep.

44:07
Jmike
I didn't recognize that the first time. That's pretty cool.

44:10
Duke
Oh, man. You know, I always felt like, you know, for all seasons, that it does. It does, like, scale really well. But, like, just the juxtaposition of this massive rocket against this tiny little red cape pressing against it. Oh, that's so good.

44:23
Case Aiken
Yeah, yeah. Once he's, like, just the tip right there just to see how it feels. It's so good.

44:30
Duke
Yeah. Which, you know, like, it works. It's like he's a giant fighting against other giants.

44:36
Case Aiken
Yeah. Just the scale of what he operates on is so colossal. And the devastation that follows the explosion is huge. And like I said before, I really forgot how much this book stacks everything against Superman for when the fight ultimately happens. I remember that he got hit by the nuke, and I'm like, yeah, he's super weak because he got hit by a nuke before he goes to fight Batman. But I forgot that this, not only there's the EMP, that happens immediately after it, but I forgot that it had also a dust cloud that caused everything to be night for weeks on end. So Superman does not get any sunlight, aside from, like, ripping the energy from plants. By the time we're getting to him, like, facing off against Batman, he is on reserves.

45:17
Duke
Yeah.

45:17
Case Aiken
And still. He's barely trying.

45:22
Duke
And he still has, like, call to fight, which is, to me, like, kind of like one of my favorite moments is where, you know, he just heat visions as a sidewalk where. And into the snow. And it just says where. And it's like. And it begins. And all Batman has to do is utter criminality underneath his breath. And, of course, the sky giant could hear him.

45:48
Case Aiken
Yeah, but we get that after we get, like, some really great shots of Batman recovering or not Batman. Pardon me, Superman recovering from the. The missile shot, particularly how he's so beaten up by the electromagnetic storms that follow it. And then him actively sucking all of the life force from planes, which is a power he's never shown before since. I'm sure that is the basis for some kind of horror version of Superman, where in order to be powered this way, he must drain the solar life of everything that lives around him.

46:24
Duke
Yeah, but it's. It's. It's horrific, but it's. It's sweet because he does say, your adopted son, who always loves you, will always protect you. And again, that's a little. That's a little flourish of Frankie Miller saying, like, you know, this is terrifying, but he's still that guy. He's still a wondrous person who's just going through a really bad time right now, and his best friend's not making it any easier.

46:51
Jmike
Yeah. Don't you hate it when your best friend gives you a hard time?

46:56
Duke
And I think, like, it was that little flourish that Frank Miller totally lost in the subsequent stories, because, boy, does it show. It's just Batman always complaining about Clark. Even the Batman spawn comic, it's like, fucking Clark, you stupid idiot. It's like, what the hell? Do you even know this man? At this point?

47:16
Case Aiken
Yeah. Although one thing I find fascinating is that Oliver Queen also seems to have a grudge against Superman. Like, he specifically wants to be in that fight. Yeah, like, yeah, it's implied that he lost his arm to Superman, which is wild to think about.

47:32
Duke
And now it's like, when I think about it, I think about, like, at that point, it's like, at the comics, and I'm like, the decade later, Duke, Oliver Queen had his arm strapped to a bomb. Well, that's not it because that's way later, right? So somehow Oliver Queendeze lost his arm to Superman. I assumed Superman went to a costume party dressed up like Batman. And Oliver's like, I'm gonna punch Bruce on the face. And he broke his hand and his arm. And then the guy took off his couch like, ollie, what the hell's wrong with you? It's Superman. Oh, man, I lost my arm.

48:10
Case Aiken
Right? He broke it so badly. He broke every single bone.

48:14
Duke
It was a really hard shot.

48:17
Case Aiken
He just mister glassed it.

48:18
Duke
He mister glassed it. And then he fell down some stairs.

48:23
Case Aiken
Landing each time on that same arm.

48:25
Duke
On that same arm, yeah. Which is a miracle. You think he would land on his back a couple of times, but just his arm.

48:32
Case Aiken
Yeah, he somehow, every time he bounced when falling down the stairs, he did a full 360 before he landed again and then landing on the arm again.

48:39
Duke
Rolled into Cotson City while 17 and 18 were raising the ground and it blew up his arm.

48:48
Case Aiken
Yeah. And then when he was, like, looking to try to find the arm to set, you know, to attach it again after it was severed from him, he just kept stepping on rakes. And eventually, by the time he finally stopped stepping on rakes being slapped in the face, the arm had become too necrotic to be saved. And so it was too far gone.

49:07
Duke
And a wild dog just grabbed it and ran off with it. And he's like, well, now I hate dogs too.

49:12
Case Aiken
Right? It was actually ace and that's actually, it was crypto. Oh, it's crypto. Yeah, no, you're right. Sorry. I was getting it mixed up. No, it was crypto.

49:23
Jmike
Yeah, well, it says that Ollie was in prison for something and they never really explained it at all.

49:33
Duke
Littering. He littered his dead arm on the street. And that was like a punishable offense.

49:37
Case Aiken
No, it was littering and littering and littering and littering and decent exposure. Littering and smoke in the reaver.

49:52
Duke
Well, that's when they call them the Green Arrow.

49:54
Case Aiken
Yes. Cannabinoid tipped arrows.

49:58
Duke
Yeah. Anywho, Mike Grill. Green Arrow would never.

50:03
Case Aiken
Moving on. Because I do enjoy the just, like, ever increasing, like, activism of Green Arrow going from basically a Batman clone into just, like, a full on, like, hippie terrorist. Like, I'm cool.

50:13
Duke
It's cute because, like, I'm looking at the panel right now where he's gripping the arrow in his teeth and he's got the bow ready. He's like, goddamn fascist sons of virtuous with, you know, as he's gripping the arrow with his teeth. And he's probably said it so many times, he could just say it even if there's something in his mouth.

50:32
Case Aiken
Yeah. Oh, this is actually an interesting spot. So we're getting to where the fight is starting. And here is actually a spot where I have read the alternate script that Frank Miller wrote when he wasn't sure if he would have the rights to use Green Arrow for the fight because they had kind of deliberately only allowed certain characters to be in here just because of not wanting to play with anyone's toys that were currently off the table. So in that script, the alternate version is what ultimately happens inside in Batman v Superman, where it just releases from the suit like the kryptonite gas. But what's cool about it is that we get the chance to read what a frank Miller script looks like. It's included in the Dark Knight returns trade paperback. And so it's not Marvel style or DC style.

51:20
Case Aiken
It's more detailed than Marvel style. It is like a proper. It's almost like a book version of this, like a prose story, which is very cool. You know, it's like his eyes glow blue as he, like, looks. You know, uses his x ray vision to, like, scan through, which is the panel that made me think of it. So. Yeah, so Batman starts his. We gotta be smart if we're gonna fight Superman. Even if the Superman has not seen the sun in, like, a month and was hit by a nuke right before that.

51:45
Duke
Right. And to the credit, like, even though he's not even acting at full capacity, he's still too much.

51:52
Case Aiken
Yeah. Like, they have to hit him with a shitload of missiles. They're like, oh, if he's at full power, he would just dodge these. But he's not.

51:59
Duke
So he gets hit by all, thank God.

52:02
Case Aiken
And then he gets hit by the Batmobile, and he just tears through it because he's not of this world.

52:06
Duke
And then, like, when Batman throws his armor at him, Superman just starts ripping it off.

52:10
Case Aiken
Right. But it's fun that it's like, it's sonics and then it's electrics, which, remember Superman electrics. He's nothing, not actually a vulnerability. But the animated series always loves to make it look like it's.

52:20
Jmike
It's depending on who's writing that week, it's whether he gets, like, hurt by it or not.

52:25
Case Aiken
I think it's just a visually interesting way to hurt Superman. And so it gets used a lot because it's like, oh, well, it actually looks like he was hurt even if he shrugs it off.

52:35
Jmike
Funny that, like, he's ripping through the Batmobile and he's like, oh, robin's here. And she, like, pulls out the little slingshot, and she's pointing it at him. That one panel. She's, like, freaking out, and she's like, yeah.

52:46
Case Aiken
And he's still just so polite. Isn't a school night. Yeah. So then Batman whips sonics, then electrics, and then is actually, like, hitting him and, like, yeah. Hits him hard enough to, like, knock him down. And then he just, like, gets up and just, like, casually, like, peels off the armor.

53:03
Duke
Yeah. And even then he. And then Sumer gets hit by kryptonite. What does he not do? He doesn't fight back.

53:09
Case Aiken
Well, yeah, like, and that's after acid.

53:11
Jmike
And all this other stuff.

53:14
Duke
Like, but by the time he's hit with kryptonite. And again, a little flourish from Frank Miller that makes me good on you. Superman's taking an all his kryptonite. The only thing he cares about is Bruce. Your heart.

53:27
Case Aiken
Yeah, well, and before that, he's like, bruce, I just broke three of your ribs. Like, he really does not want to be in this fight.

53:33
Duke
Yeah. Which to me, always kind of sold the picture. That dark knight three master race very much proved and made a lot of people angry is that if Superman really wanted to fight Batman, it would have been over in 7 seconds, not even.

53:47
Jmike
10 seconds, like, two. And Batman would have never known what happened.

53:51
Case Aiken
And even then, because in this scenario, like, with him not wanting to, he still is the last man standing. Like, yeah, sure, it's. Batman has a fake heart attack in.

54:01
Duke
This all, but I mean, staged this big theatrical thing to fake his own death. And I love. I always. I always loved a nice. A nice little superman wink where and it's. And it's so clever, and it's so nicely done. Where? At the funeral, Bruce's noticed Carrie in disguise. He hears a heartbeat. It registers what happened. And all I can do is wink at her and at us, and he's like, okay, I see your game. Good show.

54:31
Case Aiken
Yep. And it kind of Superman wink.

54:34
Duke
And it's like, oh, he lost. It's like, no, he won. His friend backed off a bit. Like, he. Like, he. Like, obviously, Bruce didn't really back off. He's going to be Batman or in some capacity, but, like, it was clearly a victor with two winners. Like, it's. It's a battle with two victors.

54:51
Case Aiken
Yeah.

54:52
Jmike
He got Superman to wake up out of his little stupid for a second and like, oh, yeah, we used to be doing stuff different than this.

54:57
Duke
Yeah. Silly shit like gaslight people.

55:01
Jmike
Yeah.

55:01
Duke
Oh, that was great.

55:03
Jmike
And then Batman gets to be, like, his little undercover vigilante thing behind the shadows now.

55:07
Duke
Yeah.

55:08
Jmike
Without actually having to be Batman, which.

55:09
Duke
Is why Dark Knight strikes again is so weird, because it's like, damn you, Bruce. Damn you. That's like. You're cool with it?

55:16
Case Aiken
Yeah. It's an implied truce.

55:18
Duke
Yeah, truce with the Bruce.

55:20
Jmike
Yeah.

55:21
Case Aiken
Yeah. And that's also why I take a more compassionate view on his take on Superman here. Like, I think that this book inspired a lot of. Well, Batman can beat anyone with prep time, and I don't think that it is by itself, like, the culprit here. I think it is the first step and one of the most popular books that created that sort of scenario. But, I mean, like, Morrison with JlA was way worse. You know, Batman hush was way worse. Yeah. Or Tower of Babel. Like, you know, there's so many stories that, like, led to this, like, perception of Batman, that this is just the first step. And it's supposed to be like he barely fucking pulls it off, and he doesn't even really.

56:01
Duke
Yeah. It's not winning if it's like, I played possum.

56:08
Jmike
I played possum. He knew about it and he backed off.

56:11
Duke
Yeah.

56:11
Jmike
That's not really winning.

56:13
Duke
That's basically just losing with dignity.

56:18
Jmike
All right, cool. We'll settle this another time.

56:20
Case Aiken
Yeah.

56:21
Jmike
See you at t Tuesday. Okay.

56:26
Duke
Yeah. Let me put on my old, haggard, alcoholic woman disguise, and we'll go out. Why do I have this? I don't. I'm a master disguise, which is like, it's the weirdest disguise in a story that had a very clever disguise where he. Who did he pose as?

56:44
Case Aiken
It wasn't like, oh, that detective.

56:47
Duke
The detective. That was a great scene. Like, Commissioner Yandel is talking to him and he just walks by and it's like, hello, I'm the detective. And she's like, oh, son of a bitch, get Batman. Great scene. I don't know why he has the ogre alcoholic woman disguise.

57:04
Case Aiken
Yeah. And it's a precursor to some of the worst aspects of Frank Miller's art in Sin City and then 300 and then future books after that.

57:15
Duke
Yeah, maybe Bruce is like, listen, I had this disguise for 20 freaking years. One of these days, I'm going to use disguise. They're robbing from a liquor store. Guess I'll bust. Come on, Robin, help me put on his bra or something.

57:32
Case Aiken
Yeah, I imagine that the boils on it and everything is actually because it wasn't supposed to be that disgusting back in the day, but it's been sitting in, like, a shed for like 20 years.

57:40
Duke
Yeah.

57:41
Case Aiken
Like, the rubber has started to, like, revert and, like, kind of like, and pus out.

57:45
Duke
Oh, yeah. He basically rated like a defunct, like, you know, costume store. So there was a Dracula costume, there was a mummy costume, and there was this. And it's like, what's this? And Batman's like, my old chum, this. I don't know, man. Even like, I'm Batman. I can't figure this shit out. I'll wear for one day totally torture torching it.

58:10
Case Aiken
But, like, yeah, I mean, yeah, it does make sense that he might have just, like, bought the surplus of, like, a movie shoots, like, special effects budget and it was just like, I'll use them at some point.

58:21
Duke
We're on budget. We could only take the Batmobile without the cd turner. Oh, geez.

58:30
Case Aiken
Like, if he just, like, bought every, like, puppet from, like, Muppet Christmas Carol and that was how he based all of his costumes. Like, that's kind of what we're looking at here because it looks very like ghost of Christmas present.

58:40
Duke
Yeah. Anywho, I forgot, like, it's accredited to Billfinger. Batman created by Bob. Do you think Frank Miller's like, I'll put the Batman created by Bob Kane, but I'm putting Bill finger. Bill Finger comes first. Not because it's just alphabetical, but Bill Finger comes first.

58:58
Case Aiken
I think that's absolutely intentional.

59:01
Duke
Yeah. And the Fleischers. Nice.

59:05
Case Aiken
Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, it's interesting looking back on this one, like I said, because it feels very much of its time in a way that it used to kind of just feel like the default Batman or, like, the default take of Batman because it was so influential for everything in the eighties and nineties. It's interesting to see how much this is referenced in Batman 89. You know, there's, like, some real moments there that, like, really not take nods to it. Also, I was saying to J Mike, before we recorded or we started recording for a different podcast, I am talking about Batman 66. I can say it because it'll be out by the time this episode drops, which is on reels of justice. I will be talking about Batman 66, talking about the commentary track for it.

59:44
Case Aiken
And so rewatching it, like, oh, yeah, there's a scene where he, like, pours himself a snifter of milk while he gives, like, catwoman disguised as Miss Kitka, a snifter of, like, brandy or something. And it felt very much like of a time where it's like this is being like, oh, yeah. Like, Bruce, remember back in the day where you'd have, like, ginger ale pretending it was champagne?

01:00:00
Duke
Yeah, yeah.

01:00:02
Case Aiken
Again, this feels like a, like, yeah. Here's a grimdark version of Sixties Batman, and that is a lens that I can really enjoy the series as. As opposed to, this is just what fucking Batman's always like, right?

01:00:14
Duke
It's kind of like how people, like, assume, like, oh, that's kingdom come. That's how it's going to be. Like. It's like, no, it's.

01:00:20
Jmike
Nope.

01:00:21
Duke
Alternate future or. Or a commentary of things going wrong. Like, sometimes they just take place in their own little thing, but unfortunately, with DC, they can't let a good thing pass. So we got to bring in Kerry Kelly into the new 52 for absolutely no reason but to say, look, Kerry Kelly's here. A Robin died. No.

01:00:47
Case Aiken
Yeah. We haven't talked about Carrie. And I do want to bring up, it was interesting looking at this, thinking about how she feels, like a prototype for Tim Drake in some ways.

01:00:56
Duke
Yes.

01:00:57
Case Aiken
Like, she seeks out Batman. She's a computer nerd and. And a gymnast. And, like, those are her, like, you know, bona fides for, like, becoming Robin. And it's like, yeah, that's exactly what Tim Drake did.

01:01:07
Duke
She has parents.

01:01:08
Case Aiken
Yeah. Also true.

01:01:10
Duke
Yeah. And she's. She's basically there to be the Robin to essentially help Batman out of this kind of, like, dark face he's going through, because when he was dealing with the meat leader the first time, he's talking to this imaginary Robin. Like, that's right, Robin. You know, rubber bullets, you know, say pump, trump, jump. And it's like, oh, he needs this. He needs somebody to talk to and relate to because otherwise he's just an idiot in a Batman costume trying to, like, you know, relate to an imaginary friend. Like, he needs that. And then Carrie shows up and he's like, you know, good work, soldier. And it's immediately like, oh, thank God. There's a balance to me now.

01:01:51
Case Aiken
Yeah, yeah. She definitely plays a really important role. And, like, the Batman, Superman and Robin dynamic is, like, a really important one. That's why Nightwing became Nightwing. You know, like, Tim, Dick Grayson chose the name Nightwing because he wanted to honor both Batman and Superman.

01:02:07
Duke
It's kind of like, why? It's like you read those, like, world's finest comics and despite, like, how, like, World War two, propaganda heavy they were back then, they were pretty much just a story of two men raising a baby. And it's kind of hard not to get. Like, this is kind of like two husbands and one child. Especially my favorite one where Batman breaks his leg and there's this adorable panel of silver age Batman nervously twiddling his thumbs with his, you know, his leg in the cast. And supermande, the big papa bear wraps his arm around the kid and his husband. It's like, it's okay, family. We'll deal with this together. And I'm like, man, they had a lot to work with for Apollo and midnighter, I'll tell you.

01:02:53
Case Aiken
Yes, I've heard that there was originally plans for them to have, like, an adopted male child. That was vetoed by DC editorial because it was like, no. What the fuck are you talking about? It's too on the nose.

01:03:08
Duke
Hold on. Has it always been gay? Oh, no.

01:03:12
Case Aiken
Always has been.

01:03:13
Duke
Always has been.

01:03:15
Case Aiken
Anyway, yeah. So, yeah, Carrie's a fun character. I like her in this. It's a shame that she is kind of limited to that. Appearances outside of this have all felt forced, but it's interesting to have a character who has not really been too utilized outside of this one universe of material. Like, I don't really like the sequels to the Dark Knight returns. And I I don't know if I am desperate to, like, look at them, you know, maybe we will someday because there is a lot of Superman stuff in there.

01:03:48
Duke
Yeah. Like, her becoming Catwoman was like, why?

01:03:51
Case Aiken
Yeah, yeah. Like, there's so much. And it's. It's really starting to push the envelope of, like, Frank Miller and, like, his later years kind of stuff. And, like, there's such a big gap in time between the first one and the second one. Anyway, that this works as its own standalone piece, and I don't need the sequel. But like I said, I'm sure someday we will find a reason to talk about it because we talk about a lot of stuff on the show.

01:04:17
Duke
I'll be hiking through the himalayas when you do it.

01:04:22
Case Aiken
But that said, this was a really fun one to talk about. And so, Duke, I'm really glad that were able to have you come back on to chat about it.

01:04:29
Duke
Thank you. I'm happy to be here. I'm always, you know, happy to talk with you guys.

01:04:33
Case Aiken
Yeah. As of this recording, you are currently the reigning guest in terms of number of appearances.

01:04:38
Jmike
Oh, my God.

01:04:39
Duke
Take that.

01:04:40
Case Aiken
So, I'm sure we're gonna have. JD will have to come on soon because we have to keep the balance of power between you two. But no. Thank you. It's such a great time always having you on. You're just an absolute pleasure to talk to. And this was a book that I was excited to bring you on for, because we have a track record of having you come on for, like, really big books, because it's just big books.

01:05:05
Duke
That aren't really Superman related. Sometimes they're just kind of like. This one's kind of like a Superman book. All right. Yeah.

01:05:12
Case Aiken
I mean, this and kingdom come are the two I'm thinking of. But, you know, also Wonder Woman. But that's. We were in the midst of it all.

01:05:18
Duke
Yeah. Which was like, I had fun because, like, I. You know what? I want to read Wonder Woman. So let's do it.

01:05:23
Case Aiken
Yeah. Anywho, so, again, thank you for. For coming on. Where can people find you? Follow you? What have you got going on?

01:05:31
Duke
I'm always on Twitter. I'm Prof. Of evil. Or if you just want my nondel or they see Twitter. I'm saying Twitter. Duke Doom's comics, because I think that's funny. And, yeah, I'll be there. I'm the guy that's a. Wearing glasses and looks angry. I apologize. This was looked disheveled and confused. That's my RBF at work here. But, yeah, that's where I am. Twitter.

01:06:01
Case Aiken
All right, man. J Mike, where can people find you and follow you?

01:06:06
Jmike
Oh, God. You can find me on Twitter. Amic 101. Hit me up. Tag me in. Things that people have been tagging me in recently, which has been pretty fun. It's been pretty cool. And I will respond as much as I can with little funny gifs. Inside remarks. Here. There.

01:06:26
Case Aiken
Yeah. Your gift game is always on point. And it's always appreciated seeing a j my comment because, you know, it's going to be like just like a fun, like, just funny out of nowhere kind of like response. But as for me, you can find me on most of those platforms at case Aiken, except for Instagram, where you can find me at Quetzalcoatl five because I was a pretentious nerd in high school and was into both aztec mythology and the legion of superheroes and, you know, went with that. And I'm holding on to that aim screen name for dear life at this point. And so that is my Instagram handle. So you can find me there at quetzalcoatl five. Otherwise you can find the men of Steel show at Men of Steelpod on Twitter.

01:07:06
Case Aiken
You can find us on the certain pov media YouTube channel where full episodes are coming out, as well as the Superman analog videos that we do. So yeah, check out all of the stuff that we're working on, check out our YouTube channel, and then check out certainpov.com where you can find more episodes of the show and tons of other great shows like fun and games with Matt and Jeff. Matt, our former editor, and Jeff, our current editor, host wonderful conversations about the video game culture and the nostalgia of video games by way of the main show and then their side series, side quests. So check that out. And then, and then circle back to our show specifically because we've got more great, awesome Superman content coming up. But until then, stay super Mandev. Video games are a unique medium.

01:08:19
Duke
They can tell stories, immerse us in strange, fantastic worlds, blur the very boundaries of our reality. But at the end of the day, video games are fun. Whatever fun is to you. I'm Jeff Moonan. And I am Matt, aka Stormguetti. And on fun and games, we talk about the history, trends, and community of video games. It's a celebration of all the games we play and all the fun we find within them. And there's so many more games out there, so we hope you'll share in that conversation with us. Fun and games podcasts with Matt and Jeff. Find us on certainpov.com or wherever you get your podcasts and happy gaming.