Episode 125 - Superhero as Product with Birk O'Halloran from Iconic Wines
Going back to the earliest days of the medium, superheroes have been used to sell you stuff. For a conversation about the commerce of superheroes, Case and Jmike are joined by Birk O'Halloran from pop art themed wine brand Iconic Wines.
Find out more about Iconic Wines!
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Overview:
● The meeting focused on Birk O'Halloran's journey into the wine industry with Iconic Wines, discussing branding strategies using comic book art, superhero themes in marketing, the importance of social media for promoting wines, and potential collaboration opportunities. Action items included reaching out to Jim Lee for label collaboration and promoting wines on Instagram.
Notes:
● ##### 🍷 Introduction to Iconic Wines (00:00 - 10:00). Birk O'Halloran discussed his journey into the wine industry.. Started Iconic Wines in 2010 after working in wine imports and distribution.. First wine project involved making 90 cases of Chardonnay.
● ##### 🎨 Branding and Artwork (10:00 - 30:00). Struggles with finding a unique and trademarkable name for the wines.. Use of comic book art for wine labels.. Collaboration with various comic book artists for label designs.
● ##### 🦸 Superhero Themes in Marketing (30:00 - 1:00:00). Discussion on the use of superhero themes in marketing and advertising.. Examples of superhero-themed ads from the past, including OnStar and AT&T.. Comparison of superhero archetypes to celebrity endorsements.
● ##### 📈 Marketing Strategies (1:00:00 - 1:25:00). Importance of social media presence for promoting wines.. Challenges of balancing fine wine branding with superhero themes.. Potential for creative advertising campaigns.
● ##### 🔗 Conclusion and Next Steps (1:25:00 - 1:30:00). Burke O'Halloran shared contact information for purchasing and following Iconic Wines.. Encouraged listeners to reach out via social media or website.. Mentioned the availability of wines in 35 states.
Action items:
● ##### Birk O'Halloran. Reach out to Jim Lee for potential collaboration on a wine label (1:01:00). Promote the wines on social media, focusing on Instagram (1:25:00)
TRANSCRIPTION
00:00
Birk
I figured if I screwed it up that bad or I couldn't sell it, I could probably drink 90 cases eventually.
00:07
Case
If you're patient enough. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Jay McPherson.
00:31
Jmike
Welcome back, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Glad to have you.
00:35
Case
Yeah, we're glad to have everyone here. And, you know, a big part of why people are here is because the Superman concept is, like, such in the zeitgeist that it seems to be sort of ubiquitous, right?
00:47
Jmike
Well, mostly, yeah, yeah.
00:50
Case
I mean, like, you can get away with just having a guy in a cape, like in silhouette, like our logo is, and people are like, oh, yeah, that's obviously Superman. Right. The concept sort of, like, speaks for itself very easily. And as a result, it can be used to highlight a lot of things out there. Superman has been used for advertising by himself or other superheroes have, or you just use the concept of a superhero. And so we wanted to have a conversation about that. And to have that conversation, we are joined from iconic wines by Burke O'Halloran. Hello, Burke. I am so glad that we got reconnected. Your company and mine used to work together in our day job life, which is kind of what we're discussing here today.
01:29
Case
A while back, there was a conversation about, like, doing something because I'm a superhero nerd. But we bumped into each other more recently when I was at an IDN conference. And we got to talking, particularly because Chrishmid connected us.
01:42
Birk
Yeah.
01:43
Case
And we got to talking about doing superhero material on my superhero podcast. So can you talk a little bit about iconic wines?
01:50
Birk
Yeah. So I kind of got started basically in 2010 because I got drunk with the right people. I had been working in my wine side. I did hospitality in college. Basically decided wine was kind of the most interesting part of hospitality. I wasn't super excited about working in hotels or doing that kind of stuff. By the time I finished my degree, I ended up building out some wine shops for folks, then working in wine imports and distribution like yourself, but in New York City, and then kind of fell into becoming their domestic wine manager for a portfolio that we wholesaled to bars and restaurants. And so I got to know a lot of winemakers out here in California. And in 2010, a guy named Steve Matthiason, who is now quite famous in the wine space, offered me some fruit.
02:34
Birk
We had become friends, and I was kind of like, that's an amazing opportunity, but I sell wine. I don't know how to make it. That seems like a good way to just light a bunch of money on fire. And another winemaker named Dan Petrowski, who has also gone on to become a pretty important person in our space. I had helped get his brand up and running in New York City, and I think we've become friends, and he felt like he owed me a favor and said, no, no. I know you're interested.
02:57
Case
Come out.
02:57
Birk
Come give it a try. Like, you know, I was in my late twenties. I had no money, really. So I just maxed out all my credit cards and made, like, four barrels of Chardonnay, which is, like, 90 cases of wine. I figured if I screwed it up that bad or I couldn't sell it, I could probably drink 90 cases eventually.
03:14
Case
If you're patient enough.
03:16
Birk
It wasn't a business plan. It was people I really respected opening a door and me running through it with not a lot of thought. And then you kind of agree, and then you're left with this thing where you have to create a wine brand, which is fun if you. If not a little nerve wracking. I was reading a couple different art history books and things. I'd always loved comics as a kid, but I love. I'm kind of an add person that way. I like a lot of different interests.
03:42
Case
You're in good company. Listeners can't see this, but right now, we're on. We're on video for this call. And, like, you can see, like, the set pieces from musicals I worked on, like, random projects all behind me. Like, a comic book spinning rack.
03:56
Birk
No, totally. And so. Well, anyways, we had this. Maybe I should jump a little bit. So you're trying to find a name, right? And so if you think also, like, now in the trademark space, like, even though there's technically supposed to be separate categories, but they all get crossed over. But beer and spirits and all the wine brands, finding a name you can use, let alone trademark, or just, like, use and not get sued for a small project to even see if you can get to market is very difficult. I joke that pretty soon we're going to be like, pharmaceutical companies, where we just have to make up words so that we can have new wine brand.
04:25
Case
Just portmanteaus of everything.
04:27
Birk
Yeah, it's just random consonants in one vowel, and that's the next wine brand. But I stumbled on that. No one was using the word heroin. I don't know why, but, like, an.
04:40
Case
E on the end, when it's written out, it's fine.
04:43
Birk
Yeah, exactly. At the time, it's funny now it's become. You have to be careful gendering things these days. But this was 1415 years ago, and we talked a lot about wines being masculine or feminine in style, like, masculine wines being more alcohol, kind of richer, heavier, feminine wines, maybe a little bit more aromatic, more acid driven. And the wine style I was hoping to make was this kind of. I always liked and was attracted to the more aromatic, kind of more delicate, prettier wines. But here in California, we make big, rich wine. We're just a big, warm climate. We have rich volcanic soils. And so I thought heroin was this cool kind of name. Like, pretty empowerful. That, like, summed up the wine I was trying to make. So I already had this nerdy name.
05:27
Birk
And this book I was reading at the time, I found this thing talking about how comic book art, particularly superhero art, was a total kind of american invention. That it was like jazz or rock and roll, you know, and it really came out while there was some history of comic books in France and stuff like that what we think of as a comic book is really an american thing. And to me, like, all the light bulbs went off. I was just like, all right, perfect. I had this kind of. This was one of the names I was thinking about growing up, all my heroes wore capes. Now, a lot of my heroes are winemakers. And also, I'm going up against multi billion dollar companies with 90 cases of my, whatever, Chardonnay.
06:02
Birk
Now it's changed a little bit, but now, back then, it felt like labels were just all white with black cursive writing. And so I just thought, well, I might as well do something different to stand out, because it's not like I have marketing dollars or any kind of way to put this out there. So I went to Comic Con in New York City and just started wandering around kind of hat in hand, asking artists if I could trade wine for art to do a label because I didn't have any money.
06:24
Case
Oh, that's so cool. Wait, wait. So about what year is this?
06:28
Birk
This would have been 20. It would have been the fall of 2010, like, right after.
06:33
Case
So I was at that comic Con, like, which is just like, oh, funny.
06:37
Birk
Yeah.
06:38
Case
I used to be part of a cosplay group, so I forget what costume were doing that year. That might have been, like, our first year. So we may have been in the Green Lantern Corps.
06:46
Birk
Nice. Yeah, no, it's an awesome event. And, you know, it's obviously one of the biggest cons.
06:50
Jmike
You guys might have bumped into each other.
06:53
Birk
I know well, yeah, I mean, it's like 40,000 people there at one time. It's absolutely ridiculous. But there's a chance. I definitely saw a Green Lantern. I mean, who knew if it was you? So that was kind of hence why, I guess in years, it came out of this kind of interesting combination of mashing gloves together and trying to stand out and kind of having that name. So, yeah, so we. That first experience ended up being meeting some of the artists that we ended up working with even years later. Because, you know, like, I just. Wine is expensive to make. And so, like, even to this day, I now have almost like, a backlog of dream artists. Like, I just, like, I wish I could afford and to make more wines so that we can work with even more artists and do labels.
07:34
Birk
So we've worked all with different artists on all the different labels throughout the thing.
07:38
Case
So I guess this is probably a good time to, like, mention for listeners who have no idea what. What the hell this has to do with anything. Superman. So the ultimate aesthetic of your wines is each one has comic book style artwork for all of its labels, and then there's, like, superhero names going along for each varietal that you're selling. Right? So, like, just to, like, connect that dot for anyone who hadn't actually been paying attention.
07:58
Birk
Yeah, yeah, so we. Yeah, we have heroin. And then the one that people probably best know me for, just because we make a lot more of this wine. So in wine nerdy, high end wine space, like, I'm probably best known for heroin, but I basically, when I got to jump and quit my day job, like, four years later, you know, I had this kind of small project. Things were going well. We were selling, but, like, in very cult circles and fancy restaurants or direct to mailing list. And I really wanted to do something that could expand it. So the wines I was selling were like 35, $40 a bottle. To me, that's not really a wine that can be poured by the glass. At most restaurants. Most people aren't spending that kind of money on wine on a regular basis.
08:34
Birk
And so I really wanted to make kind of a sub $20 entry price point wine without turning into an hour long story. But the stars kind of aligned in 2014 for me to pull that lever and expand the company. And went from 400 cases to 4000 cases. But that line was called Sidekick because we had a superhero wine, and sidekick was available, and that was an inexpensive wine, so it was perfect. Chris Chang, who actually did all the art for Wonder Woman for like, seven years drew that label for us, which was amazing. So, yes, we have sidekick, and then our rose is called secret identity. I do a weird orange one called shapeshifter. And then I will say, like, it started very superhero y.
09:08
Birk
And I think, like, all of us, like, between the superhero movies and everything, it's gotten a little, you know, there's only so much you can play on the Caped Crusader concepts before it starts to feel like you're really beating a dead horse. So now we've started to work with more image comic artists, and I've started to give them, like, the illustrators, a lot more creative controls. So, like, basically it's just things are getting weirder and weirder. We did wine called one shot, and we used a piece of art that Jesse Loningram did that was amazing. That's just a panda with a jetpack because it's awesome.
09:38
Case
What are some of the big artists that you've worked with? Actually, you've dropped a couple of names at this point, but if it started off as you just sort of, like, trading wine for art and it's grown since then, who's a big one that you're proud of?
09:49
Birk
Yeah, I mean, they're all cool. We met Tom Pfeister was probably one of the first guys that really listened to us, and he's based in Atlanta. He was doing all the covers for Gi Joe for a long time. I actually know that he does a bunch of work for Rick and Morty now.
10:02
Jmike
Okay.
10:02
Birk
Which is kind of cool. He's done a lot of. A lot of character development. So he actually kind of helped us develop our heroine character. And I was hoping to get a chance to work with him, but he kind of got more busy and, you know, with, people are very sweet and generous with their time, but at the end of the day, like, people, I get it. People need to make money. So when you're working with trade, it's sometimes hard to get people to focus and bandwidth. But eventually, like, I really wanted the heroin final label to be drawn by a woman. It just felt weird to have, like, a bunch of white dudes draw a label called heroin and not have any women involved. Yeah.
10:37
Birk
Like, so I actually got connected through a friend who used to work with me at a wine shop to Ming Doyle, who's an amazing artist at Boston. And so she ended up doing the final heroin label. But I met Cliff, who did those. Who else? We worked with tons. I mean, another Brooklyn artist, Ronald Wimbley, who did Prince of cats.
10:55
Case
Okay.
10:55
Birk
Which I don't I think the project might have stalled all out. I haven't heard much about it, but, like, pre pandemic his. That comic was supposed to be Spike Lee's, like, next movie, which is crazy.
11:05
Case
Oh, very cool. I've heard of the title, but I didn't know that it was optioned for movie.
11:09
Birk
The comic's definitely worth a read. It's amazing. I mean, if anyone knows Jim Lee, he's kind of my, like, deathbed artist. I'd love to do a label with. I'll put that out to the podcast universe for you. To an introduction.
11:21
Case
I think that's. You would be that for a lot of people.
11:25
Birk
Yeah. Anyone that. Any. Anyone of a certain age that grew up on nineties X Men.
11:29
Case
Right?
11:32
Jmike
Back in the rage now.
11:33
Case
Yeah. No. No. Cyborg. Have you been watching X Men 97?
11:36
Birk
I have. I'm not caught up, but I think I've got. I made it through, like, the first three or four episodes.
11:40
Case
I am shocked at how good it has been. Like, I feel like this is a tangent, but it's a tangent that is just fun because we're all nerds here and we're all here for superhero stuff. I can't get over how good it's been. Like, I expected to, like, you know, kind of enjoy, but without fully remaking it in a new way. It has some of the same corniness that was inherent of the original cartoon. They have done such a cool rendition of all this classic Claremont stuff. It's really fun.
12:08
Birk
No, I agree. I did a shockingly good job of making it feel like the same tv show, but just better you compare that to. Did you watch the skeletor reboot that Kevin?
12:19
Case
No, I've been meaning to, but it's great.
12:23
Birk
Just, if anything, to listen to Mark Hamill be skeletor. But, like, that's really the main reason to listen, actually. But it's such a big reboot, and it's fine. It's really enjoyable. But it's obviously, like, they took the characters and then just rebuilt the whole show where, like, X Men 97 does. Like you said, it's a remarkably. It feels like he's just the same people in the same cast and everything. Like, even the voice acting so close to the original show.
12:50
Case
Yeah, like, there are characters who don't sound like that to me anymore, but they did for that show, and, like, they sound consistent in this show, even if it's not necessarily the same voice actors for everyone. Like, Xavier doesn't sound like Xavier from the tv show to me anymore. He sounds more like a mix of Patrick Stewart and, like, a sassy bitch. But, like, the version that we get when he shows up again in X Men 97. Spoiler, he's not dead with the cheer. Like, just for the record. Spoilers.
13:20
Jmike
Oh, my God.
13:21
Case
I think they say that at the beginning. Like, it's just, like, so eventually, the character shows up again, and he's got that, like, dad voice going for him. But you know what? That's what the character on the show had.
13:32
Birk
Yeah, totally.
13:33
Case
And, like, Magneto. Like, magneto's so goddamn good in this. I don't want to spoil anything for the last couple episodes, but, man, the last couple episodes have gotten really intense in really good ways, and it's ways that you could see the old school X Men show doing. I don't know, I just wanted to, like, it's weird that I have a superhero podcast, and yet I've not had a chance to, like, just, like, gush about X Men 97 yet. I'm just, like, so enthralled by how good it's been.
13:56
Birk
I'm glad I gave you the episode.
13:58
Case
Thank you for that one. So let's talk about, like, the idea behind iconic wines. You said that you had the word heroine first as, like, sort of your jumping off point. At what point was it like, all right, well. And now it makes sense to get a bunch of, like, cool, like, comic book kind of stuff to it. What was that thought process just, like, from, like, finding the word itself and, like, figuring out what the label was going to look like?
14:19
Birk
I've gotten pretty good at doing, like, online trademark searches in the liquor and spirit space. So I would say, like, whenever we come up with a new name, for example, like, to me, a really obvious word that would fit with our brand is protagonist.
14:34
Case
Right?
14:34
Birk
Right. Like, sounds nerdy. It's a cool thing. It's like, the hero that one's taken. Like, there's been a wine called protagonist.
14:41
Jmike
Really?
14:41
Birk
Oh, yeah. It's like. It's really ridiculous. Like, we just had to change the name of a project. So we had a wine called Myriad, and when I was looking it up, there was like, the first thing I do is just go to Google and type in whatever word I'm looking for to find out if there's a wine brand out there. So if it doesn't show up on a Google search, then the next step is to delve into there are government record now. Like, you can go to the government website and start doing actual trademark searches and see if there's anything active or pending. And so there was a brand called Myriad, but it hadn't made wine for several years. And then I went and checked and I didn't see any trademarks in my initial searches for the government search.
15:19
Birk
And this is the other weird thing about to turn this into a pod, like IP Law podcast.
15:23
Case
No, I'd love to hear it.
15:24
Birk
There's this other thing about first mover stuff. So even if you don't trademark anything, but you've created a brand, you used the name, and you have proof that you've sold it across state lines, that gives you a lot of protections to start. So if someone comes along and tries to trademark your name but you already have something in use, first use has a lot of play. It's best to eventually trademark and do everything. But if you're a small company and you're trying to do something, or even if you're a small comic creator, anything, just get the work out there and that becomes much more defendable. But in this case, it looked like a brand that just wasn't in use anymore. And I thought, well, it's a small project, we'll use it.
16:01
Birk
And then in that time, because wine takes a while, so you kind of come up with a name you do work on. The artist released it flash forward like two years later. And I got a kind of grumpy email to our website from the myriad winery that had started producing again and meanwhile went off and trademarked it and like, wanted us to change the name. And so that wine is now called multifarious. I really wanted to call it the wine formerly known as myriad. We're all small businesses. We don't need to be picking fights that we don't want to spend money on lawyers with. But, yeah, so that's kind of the process is like, I would say finding a name you can use. It's usually inspired by a characteristic of the wine. In the case of myriad, it's a group called Syntho.
16:42
Birk
And in my research of syntho, like, wine grapes have a lot of different names because you'll have like the french name and the italian name and the american name. And myriad happens to be a really old grape, so there's a bunch of like eastern Europe names for it and stuff. So if you go on Wikipedia, the grape actually has like 50 different aka's. A lot of them translate to really funny things like goat Udder and crab butt and like really ridiculous. Jesse Lonengram, who is one of the artists we've been working with that I mentioned before they did the one shot label with us. He does these really amazing, kind of fantastical creature art illustrations. In the initial brands, I was much more involved with the artists and trying to direct them.
17:18
Birk
And now, like, to me, it's more fun to let the artist take interpretations to it.
17:22
Case
Kind of going the DC method to the marvel method of writing. Like, trust me.
17:26
Birk
Yeah, exactly. So I just sent him all of the funniest translations, and he came back with this ridiculous label of, like, a royal prince crab with a goat with a sword riding a crab, and, like, it looks totally ridiculous and it's awesome. And it's, like, one of my favorite labels. So that's kind of the, at least my process. I don't know if anyone else, I mean, there's not a lot of people doing what I'm doing, but I want.
17:48
Case
To go back to, like, heroin specifically. So, like, when you, when you had that name and, like, what was the aha. Moment of being like. And superheroes?
17:56
Birk
I think it was more the idea of comic book art in general. I was born in California, even though I grew up all over. But wine is very dominated by european history. It has a much older history. Right? It's european immigrants that brought wine to this country. And so a lot of wineries out here in California call themselves, you know, french names. Chateau something or italian trap tori or da da. And they're always comparing themselves. They're like, oh, these are like the wines of Tuscany. We make tuscan wines, or we make french wines of this style. It always kind of bothered me when I was on the wine buying side. I was like, well, you got, would you want to be a cover band or do you want to create an original work?
18:29
Birk
You know, are you going to work for Marvel and draw X Men comics, which is cool, and you can do good things that way, but, like, are you going to try to create your own comic or create your own iP? And I fall more into that camp. That, to me, is more exciting. And so when I found out that idea of american, like, comic book art being american history, that was more like, everything clicked for me in terms of, like, okay, this is what my wines, I want my wines to be original. I want them to be California wine. I don't want them to be french wines. And then that was the idea of, like, okay, american pop art on american wine, it differentiates us. You know, we're not a million dollar glorious estate.
19:03
Birk
Like, I make all of my wines in a decommissioned mushroom grow house that's quite trashy looking. And we keep it clean, it makes good wine. But it's not the beautiful rolling. You know, I forgot you're supposed to be a hedge fund millionaire before you start making wine in California.
19:18
Case
Well, it's just interesting. And this is sort of branching into the larger conversation that we wanted to have, which is that, like, using superheroes to sell a product is ubiquitous. It goes back all the way to the creation of superheroes in the first place. Superman himself was used for propaganda pieces during world War Two. But there were superheroes created just to sell things once that became an art form unto itself. Because we talk a lot about the history of superheroes, how there were precursor concepts which also were related to selling products at various points. The shadows started off as the host of a radio hour. And would be the one doing ad reads for, like, the stuff on the show. Basically, anything popular is going to be used to sell stuff at some point.
20:01
Case
But, like, superheroes themselves have really become a part of that. Like, researching this, it was like, oh, right, Captain Tootsie, for example, which was the Tootsie roll superhero from the forties, like, who would have adventures. And because of Tootsie rolls, he was in pretty good shape to fight the bad guys in this, like, doc Savage slash Superman, kind of. But, like, the leaping Superman, not the flying level Superman kind of concept for the character. But were doing just a general dive. And there's so many actual superheroes from comics that are used for things. And then there's so many things that just use the idea of superheroes as its own marketing thing. And that's sort of where your wines kind of fall into it. It's using superhero iconography to catch a person's eye and then care about the product.
20:47
Case
It's so interesting how that is a thing that is just popular in the world that it has been going for, shit, 90 years now. Like, since the creation of Superman. Like, we're almost at, like, I feel.
20:59
Jmike
Like it's been more.
21:01
Case
I mean, it was 38 and this is 24, so, like, that's just a terrifying amount of time. And I find it fascinating to see, like, all the different versions of it because, like, we have Brooke, you. You sent us the link to the onstar commercials from circa the Tim Batman movies. And holy crap, I forgot about those, and I forgot about how good they are. Like, the production value.
21:24
Birk
Really good.
21:25
Case
It's amazing. Like, you sent this video, and it's like, ten minutes of, like, on star commercials. And I was like, what the fuck? Like. Like, am I gonna watch ten minutes of on star commercials? Like, they like everyone. I know we're technically Superman, but this is a Batman thing. Go look up. Look up Batman on star on YouTube. It is like, there's. There's, like, a compilation that's real ten minutes long.
21:47
Birk
Well, Superman doesn't have a car, so you can't. You can't do an onstar commercial.
21:52
Case
Right, exactly.
21:53
Jmike
He should have pet insurance.
21:55
Birk
It's funny in watching some of the examples and stuff you guys sent over before, it made me think of it. When you're talking about the archetype of the character. Right. Yeah. Even our label, heroin. Right. Like, we had to go through a process with Tom. We had to draw an original superhero who was obviously inspired. I think when you look at our label, you're immediately like, oh, that's like Superwoman or Miss Marvel. There is that defining Superman character of the cape. Flying strong superpowers. And you can draw that without using blue and red or put a lightning bolt on her chest, and you can still look at it and be like, I have a pretty good idea as a nerd what that character's superpowers are. It's just that archetype.
22:35
Birk
And then in all the examples were looking at, there's so many more things for Batman. But I was like, it's just because it's so much more commercial. He needs stuff.
22:46
Case
Of course.
22:47
Birk
It's the onstar Batmobile. How do you improve the Batmobile? Put onstar in it. Just. That is a brilliant concept. Like, the one I actually really loved was when the at and t ad for that one. And it's not even Superman.
23:04
Case
Yeah, it just jumps into, like, lois and Clark are, like, dealing with the daily Planet thing, and they have to, like, call into France or something like that. And it was just like, oh, yeah. We're all just down for the dynamic of Superman being Clark Kent with Lois Lane. Like, it required almost no setup for us to, like, get what was going on in the scene.
23:22
Birk
Well, and also, what does Superman need? Sure, he could fly to France, but that's kind of inconvenient. And then he's gonna have a lot of explaining to do, and he gets there to rip right in. But if he has the at and t international calling card, like, here's a superpower that Superman doesn't actually have. Like, he needs the at and t card.
23:37
Case
Like, it's perfect. That was extremely effective in a way that, like, I was not surprised to find so many, like, food ads for characters. I mean, I feel like that kind of goes back to, like, the Popeye roots of superhero fiction of, like, eat a thing to, like, feel better and, like, maybe have superpowers as a result. Like, there was this, like, hulk one that we watched, for, like, what was it? Honey cakes or something like that?
23:59
Jmike
Honeycombs, I think.
24:01
Case
Yeah. Like, it just sheer ridiculous stuff.
24:05
Jmike
Peanut butter. Don't forget the Superman peanut butter.
24:07
Birk
Oh, my God, the peanut butter. The peanut butter one was my favorite. That one is like Rex Luther torturing Superman to find out why his peanut butter is so delicious.
24:14
Case
Yeah.
24:14
Birk
Like, it's just like, only I also love super friends era Lex Luthor because he's just an idiot. He's supposed to be the ultimate super smart, evil genius. And then in the super friends era, he's just mustache twirling narratively of a character, and it's always like, he's just the worst iteration of it.
24:38
Case
Yeah, I mean, just amazing. The deep lore of superheroes in stuff. There was a Captain America one from the sixties where it's a don't waste energy kind of ad. Pardon me. It was from 1980. Sorry, I don't mean to throw off the decade.
24:53
Birk
The production quality made it.
24:55
Case
Yes, it felt like Hanna Barbera, which it might have been, which kind of threw me just because it was like, oh, is Captain America popular enough at that point to really have a compelling commercial? But I guess the underoos commercial was great. Like, just selling superhero clothing. I was shocked that it was like, oh, hell, they're selling shazam stuff. I totally would have wanted that if I was a kid at that age. But it was a little before my time. There's so much Batman, and it kind of makes sense. The Adam West Batman show made everything kind of ubiquitous. Like, even those on star commercials featured full scenarios that would have been right at home with sixties Batman.
25:33
Case
It had the aesthetic of the Tim Burton Batman, so it makes sense that Batman's just so out there that everyone knows all the status quo things for it. I was shocked to see the new Teen Titans featured in a say no to drugs commercial because I was like, is this how, like, the little, like, scraps people got of actual, like, animated versions of their favorite superheroes? Otherwise, it's comics only. But then, like, oh, yeah, we'll do animated cartoon for just the say nota drugs commercial.
26:04
Birk
The other one I liked was in terms of illustrating, actually, speaking of XM 97 in a way, but there was the, it started with a z, but it was the toy stories and cameras. Yeah. Like, I actually was googling to see if the same people that did the tick did those commercials. They look like. It's like if the guy that drew the tick did Batman, like, the way his expression is. Yeah. But even the way the Batman's face, like, contorts and it's, like, really cheesy, but in a great way. I was like, I want to watch an entire Batman cartoon, like, done by these illustrators. Just the way they drew him is so over the top. It's awesome.
26:40
Case
Yeah, I mean, like, it's no surprise that, like, I was primed to be into, like, superhero stuff when I finally found superhero stuff because, like, you look at all the ads that I was, like, inundated with as a kid.
26:53
Jmike
Yeah.
26:53
Case
And they're all these, like, superhero things that were just, like, all over the place. Like, outside of actually using superheroes for ads. Like, do you remember, like, apple cinnamon Cheerios had, like, their own, like, apple and cine. Like, apple and cinnaman. Like, duo.
27:08
Jmike
Here I go.
27:08
Birk
I am cinnamon, right?
27:12
Case
Or then just even, like, more broadly, there's, like, the whole element of, like, you look at just about any sort of, like, kids media, and at some point, a character will have a fantasy where they, like, turn into that exact, like, superhero, like, archetype. You know, like, stupendous man from Calvin and Hobbes or Quail man from, like, Doug or, like, super Grover from, like, sesame street. Like, the superhero archetype. It's such easy shorthand, and, like, we're all just, like, kind of here for it. And, like, it's no surprise that me just, like, being exposed every corner of the Internet that I was dealing with, like, set me up to be a superhero fan. Not the Internet, the world.
27:49
Jmike
Well, I mean.
27:50
Case
I mean, ultimately the Internet now, but in the eighties, it wasn't the Internet. The eighties, it was just tv and whatnot. Media. That's what I mean.
27:57
Jmike
No one questioned super Grover. We kind of just went along with it. They were like, oh, that's kind of cool.
28:01
Case
Yeah. I mean, were, when were, like, researching it, and I was like, I'm sure you know, tv trips has a thing for it. They have this page product as superhero as a basic concept. And of course, it's, like, intensely riddled with examples, both real and fictional. Like, there's so many in universe kind of ads that we grew up with in, like, the eighties and nineties referencing then, like, all these, like, stuffed cake ads and whatever other, like, kind of things from, like, the, you know, sixties, seventies, eighties that preceded it. But, like, even things like Mister Clean has a certain degree, yeah. Is he a superhero? I think there's something going on there.
28:39
Birk
What about, like, bouncing? It's also just that, like, yeah, they're like, what would women want? A really strong Jack guy. That's good.
28:49
Case
I think there is an overlap there. I think that those are similar archetypes in terms of pop culture because I think this goes back to, like, the strongman mythos that, like, you can even make like a comparison with, like, Hercules or like Paul Bunyan or Samson. There's all these characters in lore that are supposed to be these masculine archetypes that we look to as, like, things to put our faith into and then to have that then be, like, reformatted for selling products makes sense. We trust this big, strong bald man for, like, just how goddamn clean we can get everything.
29:26
Birk
I was going to ask because you guys are probably more knowledgeable than this just in how much you talked about Superman. But are there things that Superman considered like, is it Hercules that Superman's kind of considered directly modeled off of? Or is he kind of a standalone?
29:38
Case
Superman is an amalgamation of ideas. But Hercules is certainly one of these sort of like, precursor kind of concepts that lead into, like, what we get into. I mean, Superman has this Sci-Fi kind of element to him. He has a little bit of the jewish golem kind of concept going into him. He's got a bunch of pulp fiction stuff that directly precedes it. Philip Wily's the gladiator is a big one. Tarzan has some elements in there. Doc Savage has some elements in there. A big one is John Carter of Mars has elements in terms of how his powers work.
30:08
Case
So like I said, it's like this hodgepodge of things, but it's all going back to this bigger archetype that we see in so many cultures of a strong man that we put our faith in who will save the day and isn't necessarily part of the establishment. It's not necessarily like the strong king. It's like, it's not Gilgamesh. It's inky doo, if that makes any sense.
30:29
Birk
Yeah, it's funny that it has, like you said, if you're going to have any product, no matter what it was, and then suddenly they're like, well, we're going to have a superhero mascot or something, right? Like, I think no one is thinking of the shadow. Like, the superhero is not going to be wearing a trench coat. Like, he's going to be in tight, like, skin fitting outfit and probably have a cape. It's going to be the first couple drawings that your art team's going to come up with. You know, you might be green if you're selling lima beans, but, like, okay, it's green. Superman sell lima beans.
31:00
Case
Right? It's wild how the skin tight outfit and the cape have become such iconic elements. I'm reminded of the commentary track for the world's finest cartoon that they did for the Superman Batman tv show in the nineties, where they were discussing how, like, at their. The animators had sent back this, like, footage of Superman and Batman flying next to each other, and they had to, like, go back to, you know, it was like an asian studio that was doing the animations, and they were like, why is Batman flying? And they were like, oh, because he has a cape. And that's, like, such a wild, kind of just, like, cultural thing that, like, we have exported this idea that, like, superheroes have capes and can all fly. Even the character that is distinctly, like, the one who doesn't has that kind of going for him.
31:46
Jmike
Even Aquaman.
31:48
Case
Well, Aquaman doesn't have a cape, so he thus cannot fly.
31:51
Birk
Yeah, you know, you want that water drag. By the, by the way, those Aquaman underoos pretty strong. They need to make those an adult sizes. I would rock a toe.
32:03
Case
I mean, all of those, frankly. But for me, it's definitely the Shazam one, but, yeah, the Aquaman one is definitely really good. So, yeah, it's just, it's interesting. There's sort of, like, two versions of advertising these characters. There's representing a quality of the product, and then there's just sort of selling the product. And I think that those two versions are kind of interesting. Think about Listerine ads where it's just like, oh, we have the CG version of Listerine able to box or be a knight against the deadly gum disease gingivitis. And it's representing, here's a superheroic aspect of the product that you're consuming. I think that, like, with, like, your Winesberg, you are making a case that, like, each of these wines represents this, like, characteristic of the product and that we're, like, calling it. Here's the sidekick, here's the heroin, etcetera.
32:54
Case
And then there's the version where it's just like, we are superheroes telling you to, like, enjoy these great values or this great product, and you should trust us without, like, that extra layer of it being, like, representative. Like I said, like the serial superheroes kind of thing, where the product itself is not being a hero in that situation. It's not like representing a hero. It's just here's the crass commercialism of it. And I find that those two different types of the same basic lexicon fascinating.
33:21
Birk
It was interesting to see the kind of cycles, too, of like, you know, of course, it's onstar and Batman in the eighties. Like, what about, like, a perfect time, right? Because on Star ultimately isn't really useful anymore because we all have smartphones now. Like, but it was that right time. Then those Batman movies as much as, like, you know, Batman begins and now we all, like, love those movies. Like, those movies are still really big, as cheesy as they seem now. And there's these cycles of, like, I remember, I have a distinct memory of when Disney got ahold of Star wars finally, and they come up with a new movie and seeing Star wars carrots in the grocery store. And they were just carrots, but they had, like, bb eight on the bat. And I remember thinking, like, does that work?
34:06
Birk
Is that worth it? Who was like, we're gonna sell more carrots? Star wars carrots. So I feel like also when things, like, things go through cycles of pop culture, we're kind of in a downturn right now of, I think, superhero burnout. There's gonna be an era, it might take 2030 years, but there's gonna be a big resurgence of the Superman movie or the X Men movie.
34:27
Case
I would say less than that. The cycles that we have seen of superhero stuff has usually been the biggest dip has been, like five years. The Schumacher Batman movies leading into then the rise of Blade and the X Men movies. That actual whole window, that whole arc was a five year arc.
34:45
Birk
I guess that's true.
34:45
Case
It might shift in terms of which versions, but I think that there's a niche for it. Even the people who feel burnout still ultimately love the material, even if it's not the thing that they need to see right now. They need something else.
34:58
Jmike
Yeah. It's just not what they want and everything.
35:00
Birk
Yeah, but that doesn't sell carrots.
35:02
Case
That's true.
35:04
Birk
You gotta have something where everyone is excited about it. But, yes, it's almost, to me, it's almost like celebrity endorsement at that point. Right? Like, that's the difference of, like, are we gonna use this trope because it's cheaper and we don't have to pay licensing fees and we're conveying this archetype? Or there's just the flat out, like, brand recognition on top of something?
35:20
Case
I think that's a really good comparison right there because, like, you know, a lot of these, like, generic superhero products are, like, kids products, and in many cases are like, cereals. Well, compare that with, like, wheaties doing, like, Michael Jordan ads.
35:32
Birk
You know, that's exactly what I was thinking. It's like, the celebrity endorsement. I'm always surprised by, like, how much money celebrities get paid to be in perfume ads because they don't even, like, speak half the time. It's just them in black and white, and it's like. And it's, like, fragrance. That's the end of the ad. I'm always like. I mean, it was. I assume it works because people watch commercials.
35:55
Case
Yeah. Just, like, look handsome, and then every now and then, raise your. Your wrist up. But, yeah, I think that there is a strong comparison between, like, celebrity endorsements and the products that are being supported by, like, archetypal superheroes. Like, ones that are created for the product or even the ones that are the actual, like, superheroes endorsing the products. I think. I think you see the exact blur between those two concepts right there when it's like, oh, yeah, Superman is advertising this thing versus Captain Tootsie is advertising this thing versus Michael Jordan is advertising this thing.
36:26
Birk
You know, I actually. It's funny, I didn't even think about this till now because it was a really brief conversation years ago, but I met a guy whose job was to maintain the brand character integrity across companies that license it. So, like, if Pez was going to contract with Marvel to do a line of X Men Pez, his job was to make sure that the Wolverine Pez actually looked like a Wolverine Pez was, like, the right branded colors had the right shape to the eyes, then tie that across everything. So, like, talk about a nerdy cannon. Nerds. Ultimate job is to just, like, go back to Hasbro and be like, his clothes aren't long enough.
37:09
Case
Your job is to wear glasses, push them up occasionally, and then tell. Tell them, technically, the color scheme should be actually black yellow red, as opposed to yellow red black.
37:20
Birk
Yeah, exactly. No, like, the total, like, nitpicker brand integrity. You. You say that, but, like, as the coolest gig.
37:28
Case
Like, well, okay. Yeah, it is a cool gig, but, like, you can see how it used to be necessary. Like, you look at old Superman ads from, like, the forties and fifties, and, like, you'll see versions of him in, like, a red bodysuit, like, a blue cape instead. And it's just because, like, people were sloppy and lazy about their shit.
37:44
Birk
No, totally. But I think it also speaks to. Well, there's kind of cross between a celebrity and a brand. Yeah, right. Like, they're this character, but this, you know, those characters endorsing, like, I'm sure that there is a room of people at DC that think, like, you know, no matter how much money preparation h is going to pay us, Superman's never going to do a preparation h, like, hemorrhoid commercial to the, like, brand integrity of the character and that kind of commercializing.
38:13
Case
But. But, yeah, I mean, like, so that creates the scenario of you've got, again, the celebrity who has, like, all of its agents and managers and all that, who are going to be presenting. Here's what we want you to think about. This athlete or this, like, this actor or whatever. And then we've got the middle ground area where it is like, this big branded character who is, like an artificial celebrity that is being presented that way, which is your supers man, your batsman, etcetera. And then you've got the generic superhero, which is, like, where they're either creating a fully whole, like, out of cold cloth, the character to represent their brand. This is the captain Tootsie's in that scenario.
38:52
Case
Or having just the sort of vibe of it in the things that are, like, you know, those, like, marketing ads, it's usually for, like, business copy where they'll, like, show superheroes, like, be a hero at your job, kind of one where it's not like, here's a whole superhero, but it's like. It's almost like the office worker as a superhero kind of concept or things like that. Have you ever seen those? That kind of, like, ad copy?
39:16
Birk
Yeah. It's funny, I've never had the budget to do this, but I have always wanted to do, like, a photo ad series for sidekick wines of, like, various social scenarios and, like, a person walking in with a bunch of bottles of sidekick and being the hero, like, saving, like, so, like, you know, like a tv ad where, like, they run out of wine at dinner and then, like, sally bursts through the door and she's got two bottles she saved. Yeah, I don't know, but she, like, saves the day. And it's funny, too, because I honestly like. But for our wines, because I came out of a fine wine background and the initial wines are all fine wine, I've always kind of walked this funny razor's edge where, like, yes, we used.
40:00
Birk
I always kind of referred to our stuff as american pop art, not superhero art, because I was always worried that I wanted our wines to also stand. We didn't even get into this. But my wines have a lot of accolades. They're sold in some of the best restaurants in the country. I'm very proud of what we put in the bottle. It wasn't just a marketing gimmick for me. It just happened to be like, oh, this is cool thing that I like the crossover.
40:21
Case
And I don't mean at all to, like, present that and like, yeah, no, no.
40:25
Birk
I think it's fine. I like. But it's because of that, right? Like, there is so much of it as the gimmick. So people, I was always really reticent. People that, like, were like, you know, I knew the artist people would be like, oh. Instead of a really formal looking, nice tech document that tells and explains everything, you know, written at a college level, how the wine is made. Like, you should make a comic book that talks about the wine. And I was always really like, people already. And again, like I said, the labels have changed. When I started 14 years ago, I was just trying to do something to stand out. But we had restaurants that were like, I can't buy your wine. We're a high end restaurant. I can't put a superhero on this.
41:05
Birk
Wine is going to cost $100 on our list, and I can't put that on the table. Which now I think things have shifted. Hear that argument. Labels have gotten a lot more creative in the wine space. But, yeah, I have a very distinct memory of going to sell my wines in Michigan and getting an email the night before from the owner of a distribution company were working with. And they're like the sales reps. A huge nerd. She's stoked. She bring these wines out. She wants to know if she should dress as wonder woman for the day.
41:30
Jmike
That'd be awesome.
41:32
Birk
And in the end, I was like, no. And in hindsight, I was like, yeah. I should have just said, yeah.
41:38
Case
But I know a few sales reps who would totally get behind that kind of thing.
41:43
Birk
You can take something like Mister clean or even the Marlboro man, right? We're talking about using that strongman type and creating a character that ties into the brand. You can tell when it's done well and when it's more like, we slapped a guy with a cape on it to sell cereal. But I think there is some cool for, you know, for guys that are looking for to play with that inspiration. I do think the line can be walked, but you definitely. It is a little scary because it's so easy to tip into, like, cheese instead.
42:10
Case
You want wine and not cheese. Yeah.
42:15
Birk
Well, I think there's a wine brand called the Vinonator, which is brought that way by comparison. So that's, like super cheese, but on the wine side. Right. So it's a Zinfandel, obviously, and it's just this big red thing, and the guy's got, like, a big z zapper laser cannon thing. And, like, actually, Tom, a lot of the iterations when were creating the character, the initial stuff, he had, like, her holding grapes or her having, like, grapes on her chest. And I was like, get rid of all of the wine key.
42:42
Case
Yeah. You didn't want it to be a wine superhero.
42:43
Birk
You.
42:44
Case
It's like, yeah, it's not a wine superhero kind of. Kind of thing.
42:50
Birk
Yeah. So that was what I like. And, yeah, I mean, there are. There's plenty of that kind of stuff out there. It's funny, there's. There's one just a wine out of Argentina. It's very different color, different styling of the design of the label, and it's from a different country, but she has, like, this mambo Malbec, but it has a superhero girl on it. And probably at least every other month, I have a friend text me being like, oh, is this yours? And I'm like, it's from Argentina. I don't live there.
43:21
Case
Well, on that note, why don't you plug your wines again and talk about where people can find you, follow you, and find. Find your products.
43:28
Birk
Yeah. So we're sold in, I think, 35 states or something like that now. So, like, our brands are around. You can ask your local wine shops to stock sidekick if they have a little trouble finding it. You can always reach out to me directly, and I'll let you know our distributor in that area. You can also buy our wine directly, unless you live in, like, Utah. Sorry, guys. In Utah, you have weird laws. Iconicwine.com is the easiest one, or iconic wine on Instagram. And I joke all the time. We're a massive company of, like, two people. So if you send a message to the website or you reach out through Instagram and you send a direct message, I'm pretty sure there's even a text button that is my cell phone number on through Instagram or whatnot. So, yeah, reach out to me.
44:08
Birk
I'd love to hear from you guys if you are looking for the wines or want to find a shop locally, or you can just, like I said, support us directly and buy it right off the website.
44:15
Case
Nice. Nice. And do you have any social media handles you want to throw out there?
44:18
Birk
Just iconic wine, or. I'm probably most active on Instagram, and that's still pretty pathetic. I'm pretty bad at that stuff. But we have a presence there. I keep an eye on it.
44:28
Case
It's all good. I think everyone needs, from a business standpoint, to better at social media and at the same time, for their mental health, should be less good at social media. So I think it's a fine line. Fine line to walk.
44:42
Birk
My wife deleted all of it about three years ago, and I was very jealous. But yeah, like having a brand, you have to be available.
44:49
Case
Speaking of having a brand, J Mike, where can people find you and follow you?
44:53
Jmike
Oh, my gosh. I'm still on Twitter. Jmike 101. I'm still around for a little bit longer, still working some stuff out. Hopefully I might be there. I might move over to blue sky. Eventually. It's gonna happen, Case.
45:08
Case
No, I mean, for the record, you have a username because back when it required an invite, you got an invite on of me. Now you don't need. And you could just hang out with us at Blue sky one day. Meanwhile, you can hang out with me on bluesky or all the other at base platforms at Case Aiken, except for Instagram, where I'm holding on to my aim screen name for dear life. So you can find me there at Quetzalcoatl five because I was pretentious in high school and I was really into aztec mythology, and because I was also a nerd for the legion of superheroes, and that is why my name is Quetzalcoatl five. But you can find me there. You can find the stuff that we're working on@certainpov.com. As well as you can find this show.
45:55
Case
Another passage is the other show I host on our YouTube channel, certainpov Media. Check that out. It's been blowing up like crazy. So I want to give a shout out there. If you haven't checked, check us out there, and if that works better for you. Or if not, just, you know, stay on the podcast feeds. But there's other things in certain POV media besides just transcriptions of the show. We also have the Superman analog series that I host, so that's always cool to check out. And of course, our clips from the various episodes. And then, you know, you should check out our discord server. You can find a link to our discord server at our website where you can come hang out with us, interact with us directly. Really good time. There's really cool conversations going on all the time.
46:35
Case
Everything's gotten a lot more active but it's still like in that manageable, like, not like, you know, you can post a message and see the response and not like have to go digging for 45 minutes to find anything from like an hour before. It's a good paced discord server, so I think that's a good thing to check out. Then you should check out some of the other good shows at certain POV. I am going to give a shout out to fun and games with Matt and Jeff Matt, our former editor, and Jeff, our current editor, hosts a lovely conversation about video game culture. They also do the sidequest series where people come on and talk about games that they enjoy for five to 15 minutes and just like gush about like one game that they really like and want to champion.
47:13
Case
So check that out and then come back here for our next episode. But until then, stay super man.
47:29
Jmike
Men of steel is a certain POV production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and case Aiken. The show is scored and edited by Jeff Moonen and our logo and episode art is by Case Aiken.
47:52
Case
Video games are a unique medium.
47:54
Birk
They can tell stories, immerse us in strange, fantastic worlds, blur the very boundaries of our reality.
48:01
Case
But at the end of the day, video games are fun.
48:04
Birk
Whatever fun is to you. I'm Jeff Moonan. And I am Matt, aka Stormageddon. And on fun and games, we talk about the history, trends, and community of video games. It's a celebration of all the games.
48:16
Case
We play and all the fun we find within them.
48:18
Birk
And there's so many more games out there, so we hope you'll share in that conversation with us.
48:23
Case
Fun and Games podcasts with Matt and.
48:25
Birk
Jeff find us on certainpov.com or wherever you get your podcasts and happy gaming. CPO.