Episode 138 - The Superman / Flash Races with Austin Funk

Few questions inspire as much debate as "Who is faster, the Flash or Superman?" Case and Jmike are joined by Austin Funk, from the Rolling with Difficulty podcast (https://rollingwithdifficultypod.transistor.fm/) , to take a closer look at the photo finish that is the various races between Superman and the Flash.

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Overview

 The Discussion/Analysis meeting centered around the iconic races between Superman and The Flash, covering their historical significance in comics from the first race in *Superman 199* to contemporary depictions in animated series and live-action adaptations. Key topics included the power dynamics and character developments through different comic eras, particularly focusing on Wally Wests evolution as The Flash, and the emotional depth apparent in races involving the Flash family. The meeting also highlighted artistic challenges in illustrating super-speed and discussed the scientific and philosophical themes these races evoke, such as the concept of the Speed Force. Additionally, memorable race narratives were examined for their impact and legacy within the DC universe, followed by an exploration of fan reception and the cultural relevance of these iconic rivalries. Overall, the meeting provided a comprehensive look at the Superman vs. Flash dynamic, its evolution over time, and its significance in the broader superhero genre.

Notes

Introduction to Superman vs Flash Races(00:00 - 12:48)

●      Discussed various races between Superman and The Flash in comics

●      Mentioned the first race in Superman 199, written by Jim Shooter

●      Highlighted the time-honored tradition of these races in DC Comics

●      Noted that these races serve as a snapshot of Superman and comics at different times

Early Races and Their Significance(12:48 - 22:45)

●      Explored the first race in Superman 199 and its details

●      Discussed the science explanations and power differences between Superman and Flash

●      Highlighted the gambling subplot in the first race

●      Mentioned the introduction of different types of Kryptonite

Post-Crisis Races and Character Development(22:46 - 31:56)

●      Discussed the post-Crisis races, focusing on Wally West as The Flash

●      Explored the power level changes and character development in this era

●      Mentioned the involvement of Mr. Mxyzptlk in one of the races

●      Discussed the introduction of Crimson Kryptonite

Flash Family and Legacy(31:56 - 42:03)

●      Explored races involving different members of the Flash family

●      Discussed the legacy aspect of The Flash character

●      Mentioned races involving Jay Garrick and Superman

●      Highlighted the emotional depth in some of these stories

Superman's Legacy and Comparisons(42:03 - 50:55)

●      Discussed Superman's legacy compared to The Flash's

●      Explored the similarities and differences between Superman and Flash as characters

●      Mentioned the concept of legacy in Superman's story

●      Discussed the impact of Barry Allen's return as The Flash

Races in Other Media(50:55 - 01:00:58)

●      Explored races between Superman and Flash in animated series and live-action shows

●      Discussed the challenges of depicting super-speed in various media

●      Mentioned specific episodes from Superman: The Animated Series and Smallville

●      Highlighted the importance of these races in establishing shared universes

Artistic Challenges and Interpretations(01:00:58 - 01:09:30)

●      Discussed the difficulties of illustrating races in comic books

●      Mentioned various artists' approaches to depicting super-speed

●      Explored the evolution of how races are depicted in comics over time

●      Highlighted standout artistic interpretations of Superman vs Flash races

Scientific and Philosophical Aspects(01:09:30 - 01:18:31)

●      Discussed the scientific explanations (or lack thereof) for super-speed in comics

●      Explored the concept of the Speed Force and its implications

●      Mentioned the philosophical questions raised by characters with limitless abilities

●      Discussed how these races reflect broader themes in superhero comics

Best Race Stories and Their Impact(01:18:31 - 01:27:36)

●      Highlighted some of the most memorable Superman vs Flash races

●      Discussed the story "Up in the Sky" as a standout race narrative

●      Explored the impact of these races on the larger DC universe

●      Mentioned how these races often serve as milestones in comic book storytelling

Evolution of the Superman vs Flash Dynamic(01:27:36 - 01:36:25)

●      Discussed how the relationship between Superman and Flash has evolved over time

●      Explored the changing power dynamics between the characters

●      Mentioned how these races reflect broader changes in comic book storytelling

●      Discussed the impact of various comic book eras on the Superman vs Flash dynamic

Cultural Impact and Fan Reception(01:36:25 - 01:46:44)

●      Explored the cultural significance of Superman vs Flash races

●      Discussed fan reactions and debates surrounding these races

●      Mentioned how these races have become a staple of DC Comics lore

●      Explored the impact of these races on the broader superhero genre

Character Analysis and Thematic Exploration(01:46:44 - 01:55:29)

●      Conducted deeper analysis of Superman and Flash as characters

●      Explored recurring themes in Superman vs Flash race stories

●      Discussed how these races highlight core aspects of each character

●      Mentioned the broader implications of these races for superhero storytelling

Transcription

00:00
Austin
And so it ends with like, oh, let's do another race. We never find out who wins. But. But in Justice League Unlimited, the episode where they visit the Flash Museum, there is a display referencing the race and it does declare Flash is the winner. So.

00:15
Jmike
I mean, technically he should never lose any of those races, but, you know, Superman's the best. That's all there is to it. The.

00:50
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, J. Mike Falson.

00:57
Jmike
Welcome back to the show, everybody.

00:59
Case
Yes, everyone, welcome back to. I'm getting so much worse than having, like, opening bits. I'm like, there's a race joke in here. But you say, welcome back, and I'm like, I don't know how to. How to make that one connect. Yes, everyone, welcome back. In fact, everyone needs to rush to their seats right now because today we are having a conversation that is probably not going to be a very quick one, even though it's a very fast topic, because today we are discussing. Discussing the various races between Superman and the Flash. And to have that conversation, we are joined from the Rolling With Difficulty podcast by Austin Funk.

01:33
Austin
Hello. Thank you for having me. Yeah, rush to your seats and then get comfortable because I have a feeling we're going to meander through this topic. We are going to take our sweet time. I love to just wallow in something that is niche and seemingly very inconsequential from the outside.

01:49
Case
I know. I'm so excited to have a conversation about this one because it's one of those things that is like, so there's a whole bunch of Superman vs Flash stories, and we're going to talk about a variety of them. We'll talk about many of the comics, we'll talk about some of the other appearances in other media just because it's worth having this conversation and because it's a time honored tradition of the character. But at a certain level, it comes down to they ran against each other fast. Something I. And generally speaking, the fastest man alive kept his title. So that's going to be an overarching thing. But I'm so excited to talk about this because it is a time honored tradition. I mean, going back to what was it? The first race was in Superman 199, and that was written by Jim Shooter.

02:36
Case
Back in the day, were talking about a thing that has just gone on for a very long time in comics. There have been tons of permutations of it, tons of interpretations and variations on it. And in fact, one of the stories we looked at was like, running concurrent with another variation of it where it's like, here's a Superman Flash race, and they're talking about a Superboy Kid Flash race simultaneous. So it's the kind of thing that is, you know, it. It's like every time we jump in on a Superman Flash race, it is a snapshot into this is where Superman is, and this is where comics are at the time. And, and it really is a barometer for how a lot of, like, the nature of comics. Because.

03:21
Case
Because, you know, for one thing, all of these stories are taking place, you know, in various forms, years apart. Because, you know, we've got the initial couple of crossovers that happened in the Silver Age, but then we get the post crisis ones, we get the modern age ones that pop up in there. We get all the different interpretations that show up in the different media, and each of those are. Are linked to this, to the moment in time when they came out. It's a photo finish. You know, like, we get to see very much like this is the snapshot of what Superman and the Flash were like at that exact moment. And I think that's like, the really interesting thing about this. It becomes a historic record.

03:58
Austin
Yeah, the why they're racing it. I read these largely in chronological order, and it was super fascinating, like you said, to see the progression of how comics looked, but also the progression of, like, what constitutes a story like that. You can see the different eras, what they were considering, and like, what was important to them and what was it, you know, the building blocks of those comic stories in each of these decades that happened. So I thought that was super interesting. But yeah, it's kind of.

04:27
Case
It's.

04:27
Austin
It's super interesting that it's this stock conflict that we keep going back to because there are a ton of those in comics, right? Like, there's a ton of like, between two superhero. Obviously there's superhero, super villain, but there's a ton of superhero conflicts that we keep coming back to. And obviously, I think that probably the biggest one is Batman and Superman, right? Which is an ideological conflict between, like, the world is inherently good and our purpose is to, like, deal with the exceptions and then the, you know, the world is inherently dangerous, only constant vigilance, right? It's this. It's a philosophical conflict that keeps those two characters coming back, butting heads. Captain America and Iron man is kind of another one. But this is definitely like the other kind of Superhero v Superhero fight, where it's the physical altercation.

05:13
Austin
And that's obviously super common too. Like, everyone's fought the whole, like, how many times the Thing and the Hulk gone up against each other? Let's see who's stronger. How many times have Thor and the Hulk gone up against each other? Let's see who's stronger. But this one is so specific because it's about who's fast. And that doesn't pop up. Like, there's no Marvel issues about Silver Surfer and Quicksilver racing to see who's faster. Right. Like, it only seems to be these two characters, and then their. Their legacy characters interact with each other. That. That comics is obsessed with racing them over and over. It's so interesting.

05:46
Case
Yeah, it's. I mean, in part because Superman's shtick. Like, the thing is, Superman, his shtick has become everything over time. But, like, originally, one. Heavy sticks was that he ran really fast. Like, that was like, you know, the faster than a speeding bullet thing is really important to the character. And then you have the Flash, who is the fastest man alive. And so all of a sudden, you have two characters who are operating in a shared space in a way that is different than, say, like, Superman and the Hulk, who are, like, different publishers. Like, you know, we have these two characters who are operating. Both are infamous for being extremely fast. And, you know, what comic book fans love to do is pit characters against each other.

06:24
Austin
They do.

06:25
Case
And this scenario, it's one that can be done very easily without. Because it's not a fight, you know, it's a race.

06:33
Austin
Yeah, there's. You can contrive all these different. We've seen them contrive it. Hell, they've contrived some reasons for these characters to run. Oh, yeah, it's so funny.

06:42
Case
And honestly, they probably put more effort in contriving these scenarios than are necessary, because, like, Superman in the Flash, doing a race for charity is, like, the easiest thing to explain in the world.

06:52
Austin
Yeah. It just makes sense. And that's. I feel like that's kind of. They go back to. It's the first time they do it is that charity race.

07:00
Case
Yeah.

07:00
Austin
And then, you know, it's what they do in the animated series. It's a charity race. And then in what I think is probably the definitive version of it, which is the. One of the issues from Superman up in the sky, which I got right here with me, is. Is a charity race. And that's. I think that's kind of like the definitive retroactive best one. And yeah, it's just solid. And then from there they come up with the most bizarre reasons to force them to do it.

07:27
Case
A lot of aliens and strange magical beings manipulating reality into forcing them to run against each other.

07:34
Jmike
It seems they spiders. I have one weakness.

07:40
Case
All kinds of contrived scenarios there. Jesus Christ.

07:44
Austin
Yeah. Speaking of weakness, the ways they find to get kryptonite and or red suns into these races so that they're like now Superman's cause Barry or Wally, but usually Barry the Flash, they're like, oh, we can come up with any number of reasons for him. He's got to breathe, he's got to eat, you know, he gets tired. We have any number of reasons that he could mess up Superman. He really only has the one problem, doesn't he?

08:07
Case
Yeah, well, and that's. I think. Let's talk about the first race because I think this sort of will establish a bunch of the things going forward and does really interesting stuff in a way that I was surprised how interesting I thought the race was the. So the first race in Superman199, which was written by I believe a 14 year old Jim Shooter.

08:29
Austin
That's what.

08:30
Case
Yeah, so Jim Shooter was like a wonderkin when he joined DC Comics. So he was like, I don't want to like get too literal or like don't quote me on the ages, but he was a, a very young high school age when he started working for DC Comics after getting really into both DC and Marvel Comics, after spending like a bunch of time in the hospital, if I remember correctly from his biography, was brought in and worked on, worked under Mort Weisinger and apparently was like his favorite kid. But Mort Wisinger was apparently a douchebag to all of his team and so like just like yelled at this kid all the time. But he had this like fantasy and his like junior high of like who would be the fastest between Superman and the Flash.

09:16
Case
And then very shortly after that he was writing Superman in the Flash, was able to pitch this whole thing. Like Jim Shooter, we gotta be clear when he was was editor in chief, when he was in charge of Marvel Comics, like he did a lot of good stuff, but he also was very adamant that there were no gay people in Marvel Comics and was very restrictive in terms of how people ran because he was inheriting who was very restrictive about how people ran. And Jim Shooter at one point, while he was in charge of Marvel Comics, the artists and writers had a party at John Byrne's house and they burned an effigy of Jim Shooter. So we are talking about a controversial figure who was still working in comics. Like he's still a writer.

10:03
Case
I have so many issues of Legion of Superheroes that he wrote.

10:08
Austin
That's madness. Plenty of guys like that still sticking, kicking around, unfortunately.

10:14
Case
Well, I mean like, for better and worse, like I, I think that there's a lot to. I think that he is a controversial figure, but I think still an interesting one. And there's like, you know, plenty of good stuff that he did. Like, he did a lot of great stuff, especially in this era working for dc. But I like, I just because his, the people who worked for him didn't like him doesn't mean that he necessarily was all like completely a bad guy. It's just a, it's just a funny story in my opinion at least.

10:43
Austin
But.

10:43
Case
But yeah, so looking at this first race, so again we establish this, the charity race, the conflict of it, besides the factors of like, how they are different in terms of their powers, which is a big chunk of this book in a way that is very Silver age that I love. Like the science explaining of everything in the panels. And by science I mean like Superman being like, well, I'm heavier than the Flash and I can't run on water so I have to swim at super speed.

11:09
Austin
I thought that was. That bit is so funny to me that he has to. So they're like, which one of these is faster? Now one of them is fast enough to run on water and the other one's not. But it is a question of which one's fast.

11:20
Case
But he's so strong that he can swim at speeds and he can through the waves, the Flash waves.

11:26
Austin
Oh my goodness. Yeah, it's very funny to me that they kept finding ways to flip. Flip who is in the lead. Because I, at first I thought like, oh, this is pretty good. Because a lot of times it's like, oh, well, it's the willpower. Right? Which of course all power scaling in comics is going to come down to the author's contrivance. And also like the, you know, the force of character of that superhero. That's how all of that's always going to come down. They're fictional characters. That's how these power scaling things go. But a lot of times it's just like, well, you know, believing in themselves kind of thing. But I thought it was very funny that they kept switching who was in first. They kept coming up with these good reasons.

11:59
Austin
But the reason Barry always gets in first is that he can vibrate through things. And so it's. It's. Barry vibrates through something, and then Superman does something really cool to get back in the lead, and then Barry vibrates through something.

12:12
Case
Yeah. I mean, so this sets up, like, the big difference here is that the Flash has all of this precise use of super speed that Superman doesn't, but Superman has all these other powers, and that's the juxtaposition between them and all these races. So that even if you limit Superman's flight, which, you know, it's interesting to be like, oh, flight is the big determining factor in his speed. Like, you know, the question is, well, this is the foot race of them, but is Superman faster flying? And. And then you get into, like, in. In outer space, like, can. Can you fly at a straight line faster versus, like, around a curve of a planet?

12:47
Austin
Who. Who.

12:48
Case
Who knows? Not the point. The. The point is that the Flash can do all these cool things. He can vibrate through solid objects. He can run on water. He can cut through stuff using his vibrations. He does, like, all these. Superman's just a goddamn brick that happens to move close to the speed of light at any given time. And so he can move through any surface because he's just a goddamn brick. And he's got this stamina that the Flash doesn't, because Superman is Superman. And so that's the difference between them here. And that, you know, it kind of changes throughout, like, what power set we need to worry about. But the other thing that's important is that they are always close together in speed. Like, there is no version of Superman in the Flash where their speed is dramatically different in a way that.

13:32
Case
Because the Flash is the power scaling of what super speed is in DC Comics, and Superman is always just up right behind him on this one. Whatever. The speed of the Flash is the speed that Superman goes, basically. And that in whatever version that we're looking at, that is the deal for this character.

13:51
Austin
Yep. When they're depowered later, post crisis like that, you know, they're both slower.

13:56
Case
Right.

13:57
Austin
And here they're both like. They were like, well, obviously, you both could go several times the speed of light. That's out of the question. You know, here we've put all these obstacles in your way so that you can't do that. I thought that was. That was interesting. Yeah, you're right. Superman is always just, like, right there. Although, you know, it makes sense because you want them to be able to interact during the race, to have them both close together, to both be in the same panel. Right. But there is, in. There is the one exception, which is in the up in the sky. But we'll get to that because I think it'll probably be the last one we talk about. But that one is interesting to me because it's the exception. They're really not close together, and it's called out in that issue.

14:31
Austin
They're like, well, close together. When you're racing around the world a dozen times at, you know, just spot, just shy. The speed of light is like 100 miles. Like, that's pretty close. But that's not close for panels.

14:43
Case
Right?

14:43
Austin
That's nothing. You know, they're in different time zones, so.

14:47
Case
Yeah. And that's actually an area where it becomes weirder where they're. They're so close together, they're always neck and neck for all their races, even though, like, the relative difference really should be like, oh, but they are like hundreds of miles apart because that race is so far and they're moving so fast in this whole situation. But this one sets up like. Okay, well, this is the dynamic here that Superman is. Has all these powers that he has to restrict to focus on speed. And he's not as good at speed as the Flash. Like, the Flash is always better at speed. Regardless of if he's faster, he can do more things this speed. And then we get the extra drama of like, well, what do people. What do unscrupulous people do when there's like, big events that have a definite winner? And that's gambling.

15:30
Case
And like, I actually rather love that. Like, the big plot is that the mob is trying to, like, fix the match.

15:37
Austin
Two mobs.

15:39
Case
Two mobs. Yeah. That's the best we've had.

15:40
Austin
One mob. Yes. But what about second mobs?

15:42
Case
It's two mobs and they cancel each other out. Which is the best part.

15:48
Austin
Yeah, exactly. The power scaling going on where they're both like, oh, yeah, again, like, obviously you guys could like, you know, fly, go faster than light. Nope. You know, no problem at all. It's very funny to have their, you know, the people who stop, ultimately stop them be just a bunch of goons just some mob guys who put a piece of glass in the road for flesh to run into at full speed.

16:10
Case
Right. It's like, oh, well, it's bulletproof glass. But he just, like, gets it at full speed. After having, like, run through a glacier earlier in the issue, he just runs into glass. A lot of these stories are multi parters, but this first one is Just one issue. And it is a dense one issue.

16:25
Austin
Oh, yeah.

16:26
Case
A lot.

16:26
Austin
I find myself looking back, like, trying to remember when certain things happened, because I was trying to remember as I was taking some notes for this recording. Like, sometimes Barry is a huge prick. Am I allowed to curse on podcast? Hell, yeah. Sometimes Barry is a huge dick. And he's like, oh, yeah, Sumris is trying to distract me. And when it's like kind of the Wall E version in, like, the. The Animated Series, you're like, well, that's kind of the characterization they're going for Wally. But when it's Barry, you're like, why is this man, like, so skeptical of Superman? Like, Superman's like, flash, I think there's a trap here. I think we're. I think something's going on. We need to stop and consider it. And Barry's like, that guy probably just wants my city to blow up. Like, have you met Superman?

17:10
Case
Yeah, it gets weirder later with all that. Although that's. That's not in this one. That's in the next.

17:14
Austin
You're right. That's not. I. It's. It starts to get mixed up. Mixed up in my head, though, like, where is Barry kind about it? Where is he, like, being weirdly vindictive, out of character? Like.

17:24
Case
Well, this also gets back to a core part about especially Barry, which is my thesis that speedsters are inherently just a variation on Superman because the power set makes them so important, impossible to defeat. You know, like, they. They effectively can do anything. And, like, super speed is such an important part of Superman's power set that, like, even if you downplay it, like, a speedster can do all the things that you need Superman to do in most circumstances. They can get to any situation, you know, fast enough to stop the problem. They can usually fix any problem because they have super speed to afford it. Most physical threats are not real threats to them because they're able to bypass it by way of their super speed.

18:05
Case
And so ultimately, that the, like, the Silver Age Flash is a variation on Superman and really leans into, here's the science lessons that we can do because of our superpowers, which is a type of story you can do with Superman, but not the sole type of story you do with Superman.

18:18
Austin
I think you're right. I think the. The fact that they rebooted Flash with the introduction of Barry Allen during that Silver Age science fiction kind of, you know, the same era that brought you the revamped Green Lantern origin, the same era that brought you know, the Fantastic Four and all these new, like, Marvel heroes where it's. Superman has these deeper roots. And so you could do that science fiction stuff. Obviously he's from another planet. Science fiction. But the very specific brand of science fiction, the pseudo science explanation for why this stuff is happening is very tied into like, the new origin for Barry and for Hal. And I think you're right. I think that's an interesting observation about like, how they keep using it to explain Barry's powers. And then for Superman they're like, you guys, you know what Superman can do?

18:58
Austin
You know his deal, like, he can just do everything. Don't worry about it. We don't need to explain how, you know, he's. He has an invisible aura that protects him from friction. Because that's pseudo science stuff that came out in the, you know, 19, late 50s, early 60s kind of era of comics. And Superman predates all that.

19:14
Case
You know, I was impressed that they referenced Flash's aura even in that first race. I was surprised at how many things about the Flash's powers were already in place at this point, you know, which just speaks to like, the limits of like, how much I've paid attention to Barry Allen era Flash. But at the same time I'm like, oh, no, that actually, like, is really very prescient for details that would be, you know, built upon with like the Speed Force and everything later on. But here it's just a part of the character. And like, oh, that's cool. Like, like the fact that it's going back to the 60s, like, oh, that's. That's pretty cool.

19:47
Austin
I was also surprised at, because I've read stuff this far back, but not as like a. Not in any kind of like order or any kind of bulk. Right. I've tended to read things connected to other stories I'm reading or like I pick up an issue from a thrift store kind of situation. So to go back and read this one and like, man, like, yeah, the aura is really him vibrating his molecules through matter is really old. They came with that stuff really quick.

20:14
Case
Yeah, yeah, it's. It's kind of like going into looking at like the Silver age Superman stuff and seeing how much of it came in just like this limited window of when like Jerry Siegel had come back on the book in like the late 50s, early 60s. And it's just like, oh, this like six year window gave us like the bottled city of candor and it gave us all the different colors of kryptonite. And it gave, you know, gave us bizarro. And, you know, I don't know if.

20:37
Jmike
That'S a good thing or a bad thing about the kryptonite thing.

20:41
Case
I think that kryptonite as a general concept is useful for a lot of storytelling. Whether or not either the oversaturation of the types of Kryptonite or the over saturnization of the amount of kryptonite, both of those are problems. But, like, the inherent issue of kryptonite existing and that there are multiple types is not a big deal. And we'll talk about some of that as we continue in this episode. Because kryptonite pops up a lot in this episode. Shocking for a thing that should just be like, oh, but they ran against each other. Like, we. I mean, we get kryptonite right off the bat. The mobsters get. Just get kryptonite dust.

21:19
Jmike
Ow.

21:21
Austin
I know. It kind of just seemed like you could buy it at the corner store.

21:24
Case
Kryptonite was ubiquitous. Like, that was just a thing.

21:28
Austin
They had Kryptonite like they had lead in their pipes back then. It's just everywhere.

21:32
Case
But why don't we move on to the next race? And I think we can kind of lump this one and the one after that into sort of a bigger conversation. Actually, the next couple, because they all sort of follow similar trajectories of like, apparently an alien forces them to run against each other, is sort of theme of the next couple races that we're looking at. It's not always because the. The second race between Superman and the Flash, actually it was a plot by the Reverse Flash and Abracadabra.

22:03
Austin
But that is, you know, love to see some abracadabra.

22:06
Case
A lot of abracadabra in this whole conversation.

22:08
Austin
Abracadabra shows up a lot. And he's in one of my favorite issues with Wally, who's my favorite Flash. And so whenever I see him in the Titans Run from, like, I forget when. But not pretty recently, but. So whenever I see him, I'm always like, hey, yeah, like, that dude always is challenged in the Flash. I feel like he does not get enough love for how important he's kind of been to a lot of these stories.

22:30
Jmike
My first time seeing him, so I was like, who the heck is this guy?

22:33
Case
Oh, just in general, you weren't familiar with Abracadabra, the 64th century criminal magician who uses technology in the place of science or in the. In the place of magic?

22:44
Jmike
No.

22:45
Case
No. Okay.

22:46
Austin
It's super funny too, because they're like 64th century and the Reverse Flash is already a future super villain who's not from nearly that far away. I don't think like he's like 32nd century or something.

22:57
Case
I believe.

22:58
Jmike
Where's Booster Gold from?

22:59
Case
Booster Gold I believe is 27th and I think reverse flash is 25th, but.

23:04
Austin
I will double check 25th.

23:05
Jmike
Yeah, that sounds right around the same time.

23:06
Austin
Yeah, yeah, it's like that's already stupid far in the future. The 64th century is crazy, right?

23:13
Case
Which they establish is like this like hellscape where everything is so advanced, but at the same time it's like this massive war is going on. Yeah, 25th century is Eobard Thoni.

23:24
Austin
Yeah, it's a real war, never changes kind of thing.

23:28
Case
Yeah.

23:30
Jmike
Whatever changes.

23:31
Case
Yeah. So the second race they run through space and this one made me think of. Are you guys familiar with the snuck in appearance of Barry Allen in Marvel comics that happened in the 80s, the buried alien situation when there was a big Marvel race of all the speedsters. And right after Barry Allen died in crisis, a blonde haired individual in red rags shows like rips through, appears in a bolt of lightning and like joins this race with all the Marvel speedsters and wins. And he's like, I'm so confused. My name is. It's like Buried alien or something like that. And they're like, oh, Buried alien, cool. And they like welcome him as the champion runner of the Marvel Universe. And like he's like showing up every now and then since for a while.

24:17
Austin
I did not know about that. That's funny. He is a cameo in an issue. Maybe it's wall. I can't remember now. There's a Flash cameo in an issue of Nova.

24:27
Case
Oh really?

24:28
Austin
Where like Novo number four or something? Yeah, there's a background where it's two. Two guys, blonde and a redhead who call each other Barry and Wally. And that's it. They're not superhero or anything. They're just. Just two guys. But that's. That's way more of a cameo than the one I'm talking about. That's. That's super funny. I didn't know about that.

24:45
Case
Yeah, especially because it was a big racing sequence where they have like obviously Quicksilver, Makkari the Wizard. They have Captain Marvel. They have Captain Marvel 2. Monica Rambeau's character who can move at the speed of light. So she's, you know, worthwhile there. I forget all the other characters. We all know that the actual like. So there's the actual fast like speed of Light characters like Monica Rambeau in Marvel Comics. And then Northstar is, like, the actual fastest character in Marvel, like, who's not moving at actual speed of light. He can move, like, almost the speed of light and becomes more invulnerable the faster he moves. Like, he's the fastest Marvel character. But then. Then, yeah, Buried Alien is apparently even faster than that.

25:27
Jmike
Buried Alien, Yep. Reuse that from now on.

25:33
Austin
A good moniker.

25:34
Case
So the first two races end in a tie, which is, like, kind of one of the things people know about these races that, like, for a long time, it was just like, oh, yeah, it's always a tie. And then race number three, which is this one's Denny O'Neil and this one is another alien situation, comes up in the Guardians of the Universe, enlisted the Flash and Superman to run.

25:54
Austin
To call this one a Flash win is kind of a. There's not really a fair.

26:02
Case
They just barely make it. And, like, technically it's a win. And it's like, yeah, okay, the Flash is the fastest man alive. He's the winner. But at the same time, they were both crippled and barely made it to the end.

26:13
Austin
It's also so funny. Yeah. So they. I actually think it's kind of a cool plot because the second one is, like the sec. The first one, the charity works, good setup. The second one, two characters pretend to be two other Two villains pretend to be two other different, separate, unrelated villains to trick them into running because they lost their bet because neither of them won the last one. And there's actually all these traps along the way. That's sweaty. That's working really hard. This one, I find to be in the middle, where it's like there are these. I like the notion that there's, like, these beings that are just tearing across the universe and they're folding time and space. They're moving so fast.

26:51
Austin
And so if they run counter to it, a very Flash thing, run reverse around the tornado, run, you know, run around the energy thing to contain the. The explosion, the beam, whatever it may be. Super common Flash thing, run opposite to whatever this horrible thing is, and you'll prevent it. I mean, you know, crisis on infinite Earths, death of Barry Allen runs around the. The anti Monitor cannon. You know, so classic stuff. I really actually like that. Then I hate the twist that it's these robots that were created by a bunch of these Kryptonians.

27:19
Case
All right, let's back up for a second. So just to be clear, we talked about Superman199, which is the first race we talked about Flash175, which is the second race and is, you know, fine. We're currently discussing World's Finest 198 and 199. Just so that. Because I realized we, like, jumped through these all pretty fast. Yeah, yeah.

27:42
Austin
It is a race, after all.

27:44
Case
And this is 1917 at this point. So it's been. We. We have had a good long run of these characters at this point. So I am interested in the fact that it is tied to the Phantom Zone. I think that it is kind of cool. It makes me think of the way that the Phantom Zone has been used in various media as a means of warp drive kind of thing for characters for, like, moving like. Like jumping around the distance of space, like, using it for faster than light travel in outer space. So I think that's, like, kind of cool that there. That's going on in there. And the fact that we've got the super criminals from the Phantom Zone is also, like, kind of fun. They're.

28:22
Case
They're all theoretically fast enough that this wouldn't be in, you know, that they could be moving in. In, you know, parallel or perpendicular or opposite direction. And it would be fairly worthwhile because not only do we have Zod, we also. We also have Jax. Er, and then we have what is not Kilgore. It's cruel. It's the last one there.

28:45
Austin
Clever. Put that one up there with.

28:49
Case
There's actual kill lore. Kill lore as one of the Marvel or as one of the Phantom Zone villains? Or not. Or not. Phantom Zone, because he precedes the Phantom Zone. He was frozen in suspended animation in a satellite around Krypton when it blew up, as opposed to in the Phantom Zone at the time. But yes, like, their. Their names are all over the place. Not all over the place. Their names are all generic and silly. But I. So I find that kind of fun. I do find it interesting that the whole Guardians of the Universe are like, oh, you're pouring all of our power into the Flash so that it can run this way. We are powerless in this time.

29:24
Austin
Sorry, go on.

29:26
Case
Well, the whole time I kept on being like, so what's going to happen?

29:30
Austin
Yeah, right. So the whole time I'm like, okay, and. And then. And then, you know, we're going to get the additional ticking clock of like, yeah, well, the Green Lanterns need to stop. Some sort of threat never comes up. They just keep reminding you it may be a problem at some point.

29:42
Case
It's an unloaded Chekhov's gun.

29:44
Austin
Yeah, exactly. Two things that I did Find super funny. We're talking about, like, how far back the histories of these things go. And there were two things in these two issues that I thought were super interesting that have come up way more recently, which is one Barry running on the Green Lantern energy beam, which we see in Justice League, the TV show. I can't remember. I think it's just the regular Justice League, not Justice League Unlimited, where he has to throw something into the sun and he has to, like, approach the speed of light to do it. That's. That's. You know, I was like, oh, that's interesting that idea started here. Like, the. The. He could run through space because he has the Green Lantern pathway.

30:22
Austin
And then the other thing was in the second issue, Superman and Flash call the Green Lantern amulet to them, which is the thing that just happened in World's Finest in the first arc.

30:32
Case
Yeah, we just talked about that.

30:34
Austin
I was listening to that episode. Yeah. They call the ring to themselves with their combined willpower. And I was like, that's right here. Yeah, that started here. Damn it, Wade, once again, you've just plumbed the depths of comic lore. I thought you were a genius, and you're actually just a different kind of genius.

30:51
Case
Yeah, no, Wade is the master of referencing things that are already existing and making you think that he invented it.

30:58
Austin
Yeah. Which. Good. Because certainly no one was. You know, this was going to be an idea that was lost if no one ripped it off and put it in a modern comic. You know, no one was going to remember the calling the Green Lantern amulet with their combined willpower plot beat. Good on him for using it.

31:14
Case
Yeah.

31:14
Austin
And in my estimation, that's just like. That's just like. Like archaeology. It's putting in a museum.

31:22
Jmike
It took me a while to figure out that was actually an amulet in the panel, because it looked like. When I first saw it looked like that was like his. It was a ring on his hand. And I was like, okay, where'd the amulet go? And I was like, oh, that's what that is. Cool, cool, cool. Space.

31:39
Case
Space. Well, and it makes sense that the races are either going to be like, you have to lap the planet multiple times, or you're going to be in space. So you can do a straight line, like, because that. They're going so damn fast.

31:52
Austin
Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's one of those, you know, but again, every. Apparently, everyone wants to see them race. Fair enough. But, yeah. Butts up against, you know, how are we gonna make that feasibly happen? The same way you're like when you have these like world breaker characters fight each other. You're like, well, we gotta put Thor and Beta Ray Bill on a dying exploding planet because otherwise they'll do a quick destroy an entire civilization. So. Yeah, yeah, it's one of those situations.

32:18
Case
Yeah. Like depending on how you depict super speed, it's either everything is just stopped and they happen to be able to move through that whole space and it's fine, or it is the most destructive power ever because they have a shockwave that chases after them, destroying everything in their wake. And you could argue that the Flash has superpowers that prevents that, but Superman doesn't. So the race could be potentially quite destructive.

32:43
Austin
Yeah, it's. They're very choosy with when that sort of thing happens. I think I always think back to the Justice League cartoon where Flash does the, you know, never have I. I've never gone that fast before thing. Yeah. He destroys the world and I'm like, jesus, is he doing that all the time? Like, clearly not. But yeah, it's a thing that they kind of choose to include when it will be most interesting for him to create a dramatic shockwave in his wake.

33:07
Jmike
I think it's for special emergencies.

33:08
Austin
Special.

33:09
Case
Yeah, yeah.

33:10
Jmike
That's like when Superman gives a whole speech about the world being made of cardboard.

33:13
Austin
Yes. In case of emergency run into glass plate instead of break glass plate.

33:19
Case
Why don't we move on to DC Comics present one and two, which is yet another fucking in space race between them. Because of aliens. In this case.

33:27
Austin
The.

33:28
Case
The. The most fascinating part aside from that we get another race between them is that we get a race that claims to be the seed parents of both Krypton and Earth. And I find that so goddamn cool because I have this headcanon about humans versus Kryptonians and Daxamites, specifically in DC Comics lore that in my headcanon all three have this share the same ancestry of colony worlds and that were then in humans case modified by White Martians so that they didn't manifest superpowers. And this kind of confirmed that for me because that had always been a deal. Because of the Morrison White Martian arc where they talk about how the White Martians prevented mankind from becoming superhuman. I was like, oh, well that's interesting.

34:16
Case
And the fact that like there's such a similarity and we know about the relationship between Dax Mites and Kryptonians and the fact that we know that humanity is destined to be the fifth world that manifests superpowers like the new Gods, it's always been like, well, yeah, that. That makes sense. And then this fucking story confirmed it for me that there's an alien race that used to be one species, and then they split into two separate species and both of them seeded their respective.

34:40
Austin
Planets at some real, like, eternals. Deep. Like, yeah, it's like Jack Kirby mythology, everything is connected. Deep nonsense that I'm totally here for. I love that kind of stuff. I love a good explanation for, like, you know, we have to have all these superpowered characters and, like, we're going to draw these other heroes to look like people. I love a good explanation for that.

35:05
Case
So, yeah, I mean, aside from that, like, it's, you know, they run so fast. They run into the future to get to the past. They. They do the late Mr. Fry episode of Futurama where. Where they just keep on lapping space time. But, you know, I don't. Yeah, it's another. Like, we've. We've got an alien situation, so you guys have to run against each other. Go, go. And time travel becomes a big part of this. And so there's yet another Reverse Flash appearance and in this case, also a Legion of Superheroes appearance, which continues the weird situation of Superman in the. In the 70s, or in this case, 78, where Superboy and Superman could theoretically meet up. In this case, it's because of time travel being weird and so they're able to time travel into the same space.

35:53
Case
But Superman refers to Superboy as just Superboy. Like, he's like a different IP than, like, just him as a. As a kid, which I find fascinating.

36:03
Austin
Yeah, yeah, we're talking about young Clark Kent as Superboy, you know, in, you know, the storylines where he was being doing super stuff as a kid. Right. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I figured as much. I. Some of the. My native. So I love the Flash, and that's definitely my favorite character, but in many ways, my native is. Comics are definitely Marvel. So some of the. Sometimes the deep lore confuses me.

36:27
Case
Oh, sorry. I'm just referring to the fact that he bumps into Superboy in this story.

36:31
Austin
Is what I was referencing. Yeah, no, I follow. I follow. My dad always had a funny thing about Superboy. She's like, I don't understand. Like, nothing bad could happen to him. We know Superman's fine. Like, why is anyone reading those comics?

36:43
Case
Well, but, I mean, you could say the same thing about Superman just in general, because that's the whole deal. And that's.

36:48
Austin
I didn't say he was right about it, but he brought it up A lot.

36:51
Case
Yeah. I, I. This is a tangent for a Superboy episode. But one thing I do like about young Clark as super boy is that it does allow him to make mistakes on his way to becoming Superman. And that. And you can always, like, be like, oh, and Superman would know not to do this, but this is him, how he learned how to make those, you know, or to not make those mistakes in the future. And so I think that's the interesting part about the character, because, like, it's. It's always the deal that with Superman, like, it's not about him losing a fight, because the only time that ever mattered was doomsday. Like, every other fight is, you know, not an issue for him because he's Superman. So. So how old was he when he.

37:29
Jmike
Dated that mermaid girl?

37:30
Case
He's college age when he dated.

37:32
Jmike
So that's a lesson that he learned.

37:34
Case
That is a lesson you learned right there.

37:37
Jmike
Note to self.

37:40
Case
Note to self. When she says, like, come and spew on your. On my clutch, it's not a thing you don't want to do.

37:49
Austin
I think that this detour has taken a very dark turn.

37:53
Case
Not dark, but weird. Certainly weird. All of a sudden, we're all banned from aquariums.

38:01
Austin
Quick, back on the racetrack.

38:02
Case
Back on the racetrack. All right, so moving on to Adventures of Superman463, which is the first race of the two characters post crisis and man, is this a post crisis issue? Because they are trying to figure out and very defiantly announcing all the changes in continuity. They keep on being like, it's not like we've ever raced before.

38:24
Austin
Yeah, well, okay, but this is a different Flash. This is Wally now.

38:28
Case
That's true. But they were referring to Barry in those moments there.

38:31
Austin
That's true.

38:32
Case
Yeah. But yes, it's Wally. And so that's actually a few very important details. So it is Wally, not Barry. And this is post crisis and immediate post crisis Wally, who is supposedly just over the speed of sound at this point. It is a dramatic downgrade in terms of power because riders don't know the difference between the speed of sound and the speed of light and what that means in terms of raw speed. Like, there are cars that have reached the speed of sound, not like pedestrian car or not. Not passenger cars, not like cars that you can buy, but, like, there are literal cars with rockets attached to it that have had wheels, but they've been attached to the ground, and they have broken the sound barrier. We don't. That nothing can break the light barrier. Like, that's.

39:17
Case
That's as far as we can tell, impossible. Like, maybe. Maybe science will change in time, but, like, current science says that doesn't happen. And, like, the difference between the speed of sound and the speed of light is so massive.

39:31
Austin
Yeah, it's. It's orders of magnitude. You're not even talking about the same thing. But, yeah, it's just. Just one of their big things in trying to, like, ground the stakes again post Crisis. And their whole retcon of, like, Wally is fast because he's a metahuman, but he used to be. Barry was not human. And so Barry was lending speed to Wally for all those years. So Wally could do the fast things. But then actually we learned later on that Wally can do those fast things because he is connected to the Speed Force, but he was psychologically holding himself back to avoid filling Barry's shoes. So we're right in the. In the valley of those two peaks of Wall E, where he's just, like, at his worst.

40:09
Case
Yeah, this is in the wake of Crisis on Infinite Earth. He's. He's just not. Like, this is the era where he's kind of a man whore.

40:17
Austin
Oh, yeah.

40:19
Case
He is not like. Like, this isn't necessarily bad writing on the character. Like, I actually rather enjoy the concept of just, like, a shitty dude who's, like a young superhero with superpowers. But that's sort of why this race even happens, because they are just really mean to each other. Like, Superman's kind of mean to Wall E in a way that is, like, that's. That's weird and out of char for him, but that is very much the post crisis Superman before. They had sort of found the rhythm for the character. Like, he would say some shittier things. And if it was something that, like, referenced old continuity, man, would he be defiant about it all? Like, it's the same thing as, like, when he was like, I was never Superboy, man. When.

41:01
Case
When we looked at the pocket universe Superboy character, like, he was adamant that he was never Superboy in a way that was like that. That.

41:09
Jmike
That.

41:09
Case
That doesn't require that much energy. And here it's like, we've never raced.

41:15
Austin
We talk about the contrivance to get them to race. And it's true that there's a lot of, like, weird alien and villain setups, but a huge contrivance is that these two seemingly friendly people. I mean, like, so Wally has a lot to prove here. So I think that kind of works. But it happens a lot with the early ones of Barry, too, where it's like there it's contrived that they're just really pissy and really want to beat each other. Like, they're just really interested in the comp. In like competitive.

41:40
Case
Yeah, I think it's the least in the first one, but it's like definitely the after one.

41:44
Austin
Definitely.

41:45
Case
Yeah. And the first one, they seem to. I mean, the first one, we didn't really spend that much time talking about it. But like, that's the one where like Superman stops his Clark Kent to help the Flash so that they can. So that they don't like each other's ego or anything like that. And that's.

41:59
Austin
Yeah, they stop.

42:00
Case
They both do it to each other because they're both fucking Superman. Like that again, like, Barry Allen is just Superman, but with only super speed.

42:08
Austin
I feel like there's actually a good conclusion statement that's about that. So when we get to the end in three to four hours, remind me about that. I think that you said something really wise there, actually.

42:19
Case
But in terms of pissiness, the Wall E Superman dynamic in Adventures of Superman 463 is. It's at its maximum. Like, the two characters are both just shitty to each other. And I was wondering if it was going to be revealed that Superman was doing it for a plan. And it's not that. That surprised me more than anything. But why are they racing? It's because of Mr. Mixer Spitlik. And that means that this is yet another outside reality warping alien power forces them to run against each other. Yeah.

42:50
Austin
If it ain't broke.

42:51
Case
But it also combines it because then everyone gets the bet on it because it's being held on Earth. So it's like the best of both worlds in that regard.

42:59
Austin
I like how they. They set up the path that they have to follow. And then the first time that becomes inconvenient for the Flash, they're like, don't worry about the path. Path's not important. We just need a reason for Superman not to fly.

43:14
Case
Yeah. Now this one is where they're really leaning into the limitations of the Flash power wise. So Wally at this point doesn't have a bunch of the Flash powers because his power, his speed has been reduced so much. But the biggest thing is that his metabolism is really at high speed. Yeah. Which is a newer concept in the 80s. So like the. The first major speedster that like really required food to. To function was the Blur from Marvel Comics from the new Universe. And that. That had been fully embraced by this era of the Flash where. Where he has to eat A certain amount of food to be able to function and to be able to keep running. So they're like people handing them off food as they go and that, like, it's a really funny detail. And meanwhile, they're really leaning. Leaning into.

43:56
Case
The Superman is powered by the sun thing in this era. And so he talks about how like, oh, my stamina. Like I'm eating, but it's because I'm just absorbing solar energy. And so that really sets up the difference in their power. Sets here like where the Flash doesn't have the stamina that Superman does. But Superman's also not a runner.

44:13
Austin
Yeah, they mentioned that multiple times. He's like, yeah, I fly places. I don't do this whole running thing. So this is actually kind of like.

44:19
Case
Especially like as long as.

44:20
Austin
Which is an interesting angle.

44:23
Case
Yeah, it's. It's a really interesting angle. Sorry I cut you off there.

44:25
Austin
No, you're good. Yeah, it's. I think it's an interesting angle because you have to come up with a reason for there to be conflict. And I think it leans into the like godlike aspect of Superman where it's like, okay, yeah, he. Yeah, he can do all these things, but at the end of the day he's always flying. And this is kind of a down to earth, very human way of getting around. And so he kind of struggles. Struggles. Maybe not the right word, but he struggles with it a little bit. Yeah, Flash is. Flash is like debilitated at this point in the comics by the metabolism. Like, I think he sleeps like 14 hours a day or something too. It's a whole plot point in his solo book where, like, he can't keep a job because he has to sleep all the time.

45:05
Jmike
Another version of Peter Parker.

45:06
Case
Parker. Parker leaning into it. And I've made comparisons between Wally and Peter before, actually. Like when Wally is more of an everyman character. Like there. There are kind of vibes, relations between that and you could have an Uncle Barry, Uncle Ben comparison there.

45:24
Jmike
He also has to say, with great power.

45:25
Case
He's got great power and he's got a great responsibility to use it. With great speed, Barry. With great speed, Wally comes. Great responsibility. Yeah. One last thing I do want to bring up about this one. Besides the fact that it's a Mr. Mix of spittle appearance and we are due for Mr. Mix espadolik episode just in general. This is the appearance of the Crimson Crips, the Crimson Kryptonite, which is not Red Kryptonite. It is specifically kryptonite that Mr. Mxyzptilk makes that is red, but when he uses it actually drains Superman of his powers when it is actually used. But it is, like, very clearly a magic thing that is. It's a. It's a whole arc where Superman loses his powers is. Is what happens. But it's introduced here, and it will later come up in a couple months in.

46:18
Case
In the Superman books at this time. So it's fun to see that little appearance there because it's like, oh, that's where the cryptic Kryptonite shows up for the first time.

46:25
Austin
That's. They did have Gold Kryptonite in one of these. Yes, the. The one where the fake aliens make them run. They introduce. I love when they do this. They do this thing in comics sometimes where they'll introduce a power because they're like, this is a great way to get out of it. But they don't want to deal with the consequences of that power being a thing. So then they'll immediately nullify it. My favorite example is she Hulk turning back into Jen Walters in this one to get escape this. This one issue to escape this cage because she can fit through as Jen, but there's so much radiation that when she's done and she turns back to she Hulk, she's stuck as she Hulk.

46:59
Austin
It was like, man, that was a cool thing that you could do that one time that you brought up today, and now it's done. But they do that with Martian Manhunter, where he turns into a copy of Superman. He's like, yes, I was able to resist fire because I had Superman's invulnerability, a thing that would have been very useful to have a second Superman many times, I'm sure. But now that I've been exposed to Gold Kryptonite, the first time I did it, the powers of Superman are permanently drained from me. And I can never thank you for.

47:23
Case
Bringing that one up. Yeah, that was a moment there where I'm like, what the fuck power are we even dealing with here? Martian Manhunter, this is a character who they just love inventing new powers for. But, like, are you saying that Martian Manhunter has been able to mimic anyone's powers? Could he mimic a different Kryptonian that has not been exposed to Gold Kryptonite? Could he?

47:43
Austin
Yeah. A great question that no one.

47:45
Case
What about the Flash? Could he be the fastest man alive? The fastest Manhunter alive?

47:49
Austin
It makes me think of Morph in the new X Men 97 show, where every time Morph Turned into a new character. I was like, you weren't opening with that. Like, they turned into Colossus. I was like, why aren't you always Colossus? And then they turned into the Juggernaut. I was like, wait, you can do Juggernaut? Why were you wasting your time on.

48:05
Case
Colossus Canon, to be fair, is that it does seem to be all physical powers that he takes on. And it might just be that he becomes big bulky forms that happen to look like those things. And it's still like I.

48:15
Austin
That's true. But they become quicksilver and so fast, you know? And it's like, well, is that. Is that. That's a physical power, but that's the mutation physical power. So it's like, I don't even. Yeah, it's. Every time though, they became a new character. I was like. I was like, that's crazy. You weren't opening with that the whole time.

48:34
Case
Well, yeah, like, why didn't you open.

48:36
Jmike
With the super speed Martian Manhunter?

48:39
Austin
Yeah, so the Martian Manhunter. It's like you weren't opening with becoming a second Superman every time you had a problem.

48:45
Case
The other side of that is his powers are already close enough. Like we didn't look at the Morrison JLA opening arc with the Hyper Clan, but there is a great race sequence in there where Flash takes on Zoom, spelled Z U M, but U with an umlaut. And that character who is a Martian who is pretending to be a speedster. Like their race is really good between them. And one of the points of the difference is that Zoom is a Martian. So he has all the Martian powers of Super Strength 9 vulnerability, Martian vision, shape shifting, etc, Even though he's pretending to be one non shape shifting character who's just super fast. He is very much a super strong character who is thinking tactically with his. With his super speed. There's good uses of it, is what I'm getting at. Moving on to D.C.

49:33
Case
First, Flash, Superman number one, which is a race actually between Jay Garrick and Superman. So getting back to this is like all snapshots of when these races happen. Superman has a black S. J. Mike, do you know why Superman has a black S in his costume at this time?

49:50
Jmike
I mean, it's 2002. It could be anything too.

49:53
Case
It could be one specific thing.

49:56
Jmike
I hate pop quizzes.

50:00
Austin
Is it like the black suit where he's supposed to be absorbing extra solar radiation?

50:04
Case
So this is actually a period right after our worlds at war, which was the. The end of. Of the Jeph Loeb era for. For Superman. And so in this siege of Earth by Imperix, who is like a dark side style villain, Jonathan Kent dies. And so Superman takes up the black S in as a sign of mourning for his father. So this is happening at that period. That's. That's why I bring it up. Just.

50:29
Jmike
Yeah, totally do that the entire time now.

50:33
Case
We'll look at the Diplobe era at some point. We. We haven't really in this. In this series so far, but. But that is what comes right off the Triangle era. Some people consider it the end of the Triangle era. I consider the Triangle era to end. And then the Loeb era continues, even though they still use the triangle design for keeping straight, which issues not. Not the point. Anyway, getting back to dc. First Flash for Superman. So Wall E gets infected by nanobytes, by Abracadabra again, Abracadabra. Hey, hi boy is back in town and he forces Wally to run, but he's aging super fast, and either Superman or Jay has to catch up to Wally to take on the quote unquote curse and then sacrifice themselves.

51:19
Case
So this is actually an interesting setup for a race where they both have incentive to do it because Superman thinks that he won't die because he's Superman, and Jay kind of wants to die because his wife has cancer and he's, like, having issues. Like he's kind of suicidal himself.

51:35
Austin
Yes. Yeah, I think it's a great setup because then there's the twist on why Abracadabra needs them both to run, which are all three of them to run, which is to break the time barrier so that he can go back to the future. The reason that he needs more tech, I think, is kind of weak. I think we could have come up with a better reason that he wants to go back.

51:55
Case
It's weak and it's super weak because it occurred to me that this means that this is not that long after Underworld Unleashed, which was the big crossover where all the DC villains sold their souls to Neuron in exchange for different types of powers. And Abracadabra, like you did explicitly, was the main. Like, he's the spokesman. He's the actual person who, like, opened the. The presentation by Neuron to all the DC villains and he reveals that he traded his soul for actual magic at that point, in addition to his tech that resembled magic. So, like, him needing to go back to the future just to get more weapons doesn't make any sense because this is an era where he actually has real magic built into it all yeah.

52:35
Austin
The reason is weak, but the notion of I need all these speedsters to run and I'm gonna use their psychology against them. I really liked that because it felt now like we actually had a mastermind playing these characters instead of the like, you know, kind of trying, like, oh, well, we're gonna destroy Metropolis or Central City if one of you loses. You know, if you tie, we'll destroy both of them kind of thing. I like this where it's like, well, Barry is dying and they both feel it's deeply their responsibility. Sorry, Wally. To prevent that from happening. They're both like, insistent on winning this race in order to take on that burden because of course, Superman would. And then again, Jay, for the reasons that you said, where they're like in this issue. The conversations in these issues are so much more interesting.

53:22
Austin
That's how it goes. The melodrama is much more interesting than who can punch who harder and in this case, who can. Who can run faster than anyone else. I really like the conversation about how young Jay is staying and how that's weird to him. And he's lost lots of things, but this notion of he. He was fine losing all these very important things to him because he had his wife and now that, you know, his wife is dying, he's really lost at sea and does not think that he's like, that was the run one rock. You know, that was these. The Flash characters all have their lightning rod. It's a super important part of the mythos that's his and he's flailing without it.

54:02
Austin
And so this self destructive race for all of them involved and all of it because, you know, this perfectly masterminded thing to make them all break the time barrier together. I thought that was actually very clever. Great justification.

54:14
Case
Yeah. And also it's a fun pairing in terms of getting Superman vs. Jay Garrick, who they hadn't actually raced against each other before. And Jay Garrick is infamously a. He's got better acceleration than Barry ever did, but his top speed has always been lower. And I find that kind of fun to be like, oh, what about this Flash? Like, how does that compare with each other? Is a nice moment there. It's also a nice refresher to be like, oh, yeah, so Bart is living with them at this point in. In the series. It's a reminder that this is far enough into the impulse run where Max Mercury has been lost to time and will eventually show up again. But at this point is he's now living with Jay instead. So that's Another little. Little tidbit in terms of, like, what's going on with.

54:58
Case
With the characters. Let's see what. What else is going on with them all? Yeah, I mean, it's. Again, another. Like, we've got a race against these characters, and it's being orchestrated by a Reality Warper. In this case, it's abracadabra instead of Mr. Mxospitlik. But what is Abracadabra if not the flash version of Mr. Mxyzptalik?

55:18
Austin
It's true. He does seem. I mean, like, Mixpitalk has a lot of functions, but you're right in terms of Reality Warper and then in terms of, like, just kind of wanting to mess with the Flash. Like, you know, obviously, Eobard Thawne wants torture the Flash.

55:38
Case
It was me, baby.

55:40
Austin
Oh, what's his name? Hunter Zalomon is obsessed with making Wall E faster. So there's kind of that, like, challenging him aspect to it. But, yeah, I think you're right. The terms of, like, maniacally cruel but, like, not super benevolent, but yeah, malevolent is. I think you're. Maybe you're right there. That Abracadabra is kind of that character.

56:01
Case
You know, reality warping Puckish character.

56:03
Austin
Yeah, puckish.

56:04
Case
And I enjoy the way they depict the Abracadabra, like, science tech in this issue. I think, like, Geoff Johns does a very good job of articulating how it could function, especially with Abracadabra being like, the code word. It's like the Alexa do this so fun stuff there. And it's a good pairing and good drama. Like, a lot of stuff to really enjoy with us all. So Pied Piper. So my big era with the Flash was Wall E stuff, especially the Mark Waid era of Flash stuff. Is Pied Piper just back to being fully a villain at this point?

56:40
Austin
I suppose so. It certainly seems that way. Like, yeah, my knowledge of wrath away was always that. Yeah, like, he kind of was bad. Then he turned good. And so I feel like in the. He hasn't come up a lot in the modern era. I don't think I'm trying to remember, like, the last time. I'm sure he has been around more often, but, you know, everything starts to blur together because it's the Flash. But I. I'm like, trying in New 52. He was around and he was like, kind of like a good guy, kind of anti hero kind of thing. I think that was like. That's like the last big thing I could think of with him. So, yeah, I guess he's bad here. I don't know.

57:16
Case
I was just kind of bummed about that because he was like, such a friend to the Flash in the. The Mark Waid era. And I was like, oh, yeah, he's a cool character. I did. I did enjoy the convention of him stealing, like, a little piece of a cane in order to make a. To make a rat whistle.

57:31
Austin
Clever.

57:32
Case
That's fun.

57:33
Austin
Again, making like this issue is actually mostly pretty clever and well written. That. That does feel like a thing that this character would be able to do, like, conceive of and. Yeah, take. Take this opening.

57:44
Case
Yeah, pretty good issue overall. Moving on to Flash 209 again. Getting into the snapshots of these characters now. This one's not a proper race. It is Superman trying to catch up to the Flash, who has wiped everyone's minds by way of Hal Jordan. The Spectre, Spider man style. And the Justice League approaches the Flash because it's like, hey, all of our records are wiped and all of our memories have been fucked with. And we know you did it. What's up, man? And he's like, I don't have to tell you anything. And Superman's like, I'm gonna stay with you until you tell me something. And it's just like, fine. Fuck it. And it's kind of a. It's kind of a nice moment, like Superman like, trying his damnedest to keep up. Like, that's. That. That's pretty good there.

58:28
Case
And we get some nice Howard Porter artwork on this. Howard Porter is a great Flash artist. When. When he was working on jla, he did a bunch of interviews talking about how, like, the Flash for him was doing the ray, but on the ground. And the ray was like the book he broke into comics with. And so, like, that, like, streak effect for characters is something he's really good with. And yeah, just the Flash looks fantastic. Speedsters in general look fantastic with Howard Porter art. And that's just a thing I wanted to mention because it looks really goddamn good.

58:57
Austin
I think this is probably my second favorite of all these flat of all these race issues. And again, because the reason for them, quote, racing. It's not really a race, but Superman's trying to keep up is just really. It's a good, solid Superman thing, which is like this wallet. Wally's being difficult because he's having the worst day of his life. He's going through it and I like that. It, you know, it's a very Superman thing to do, to be like, I'm not gon leave your Side, man, I'm gonna. I'm gonna run faster. You know, I'm gonna do the impossible. I'm gonna keep up, because you need someone there with you. And then when Wally finally stops, they're there to talk, not as Flash and Superman, but as Clark and Wally. And I find that con. I found that conversation to be really interesting.

59:40
Austin
There are a couple. There are a couple dialogues in these comics that are really interesting. One was the. The flashes that we just talked about. The second one, I think, is here talking about how for Clark, things got easier when he married Lois. Because everyone was like, well, he's married to. She's married to this Clark Kent guy. Like, we could just leave her alone from now on. But that's not how Wally. You know, so his burden was lifted. Wally's burden got heavier. And he was like, yeah, but, you know, it's kind of like a burden. A burden shared is a burdened half is kind of thesis of that issue as he goes around and reveals everything to everyone. And you get this great. Everyone coming back. Oh, my goodness. And it's.

01:00:18
Austin
Talk about another thing that I didn't realize was something from more modern comics as a reference. You get the. Superman's eyes widened, and he says wally as he remembers Wally. When Wally takes his mask off, Spider man deals Mephisto style. He takes the mask, everyone remembers. A reference to the Rebirth issue where no one remembers Wally. And then he goes to say goodbye to Barry. One of my favorite pages. They're very emotional. Like, you taught me everything moment was a gift. That's why I'm going to leave with happiness in my heart, not sadness. And then the. The same exact panel. Barry's eyes widening. Wall E recognition. I didn't even realize it was a callback to this. Just. Man, I love comics.

01:00:56
Case
Yeah, they're so weird. Like, again, also snapshot of time. So there's the whole, like, the Flash, like, rewrote everyone's memories the way he did. That was by way of Hal Jordan, who at the time was the Spectre. Yes, yes. Just in terms of, like, comics are weird, man. This is. After Hal Jordan died by way of being Parallax and restarting the sun, then he became the Specter and. Or the host of the Specter.

01:01:19
Jmike
Yeah.

01:01:19
Case
Spirit of Vengeance. Yes. And for. And for a time, what was that entity? And because he had been Parallax, people didn't trust Hal Jordan. And thus, when. When Wally went to Hal, the rest of the League wouldn't necessarily trust him. So, yeah, just an interesting bit right There for the character.

01:01:37
Austin
Yeah, definitely. Definitely super interesting. And I find it's part of the Wally trying to live up to the reputation that is what makes the Wally character so interesting. Trying to keep everyone safe. He's just. He's just always blundering and not in a like, man, this guy is a dumpster fire, Scott Lang kind of way. But like, this guy is really just trying to live up to a legacy, he's good deep down Peter Parker kind of way. I find that really interesting.

01:02:02
Case
Yeah. I mean, like, there's so much going on with him in this issue. Like, God, there's so much. There's so much text because there's so much inner monologue in this issue for the character. But yeah, like the. The loss of the twins and. And all this stuff. Like, I mean, this. The superhero soapbox or soap opera will. Will make this complicated to explain beyond, you know, for like what happens after it. But it's certainly a moment in the character where it's just the darkest hour for him.

01:02:32
Austin
Yeah. And how appropriate that Superman.

01:02:34
Case
Yeah.

01:02:34
Austin
Is here for him. You know, Superman is doing his best to keep up. You know, the comics that they're most interesting when the physical tasks that the superheroes are doing are manifestations of their inner turmoil. And it's Wall E unable to, you know, stop and recognize what's going on. He has. He's like still moving. He's not taking stock or anything like that. And it's Clark trying to be there for him. And it's just manifested through the super heroic feat. Beats.

01:03:04
Case
Yeah. Moving on to the next story, like the next kind of sort of race for the characters. I didn't bother rereading the Flash Rebirth number three, which is where we get the infamous scene of Barry saying to everyone, or to Clark being those races were for charity, and then just like blitzing away. It's an Ethan Van Sciver book. I don't really have much desire to reread anything that he drew unless we.

01:03:30
Austin
Talked about crappy guys in comics. Like, that's a bullet.

01:03:34
Case
Right. So I didn't have much need for it. It's also Flash Rebirth, which I don't really like that Flash was reborn. I think that it should have stayed Wall E in the fact that it became Barry, I think has really muddied the waters in a way that isn't really productive for the character. And. Yeah, that's how I feel.

01:03:52
Austin
Yeah. Even now it's. It's difficult for me because Flash Rebirth was my on ramp into reading Flash comics. So for Me, It's. It was super special for a really long time, and so it really sucks that I don't really super want to revisit it because of the creative team. Yeah. So I have complicated feelings because I've been reading. I don't know if I, like, really listed my comics credentials at the top of. My dad was a comics collector. Has been his whole life. He's got Avengers, like, one through 300. He's got Captain America one through several hundred. Like, he's big. He's got tons of stuff. And those were my bedtime stories growing up, you know, like, I heard everything from the Silver Age because he would tell me it all the time and like, well, actually, you know, this, that, and the other thing.

01:04:34
Austin
But I didn't. And so I read a lot of old stuff, but I didn't really start collecting my own issues until I was a teenager, which. I mean, what else. When you have money, right? That's when you start collecting your own stuff. And so one of the first things I bought. I think I bought it, like, I. It might have been a convention. I found those six issues, and I had loved Flash as a character on the cartoon, so I picked that up, and that was. That was my, like, on ramp into, like, Flash is my dude now. He's not just a character I love. He's. He's the character I love. And so it kind of sucks to have that complicated relationship with it. And I also agree that I'm like, I think Barry.

01:05:11
Austin
I like Barry as a character, but it's kind of only muddied the waters, especially even now, like, looking at the. You know, the Flash family is one of the more interesting things in DC Comics, I think. And so in some ways, it's nice to have him back because he's a part of that, but in other ways, it's like, there's too many guys in red. Yeah, there's just too many of them.

01:05:33
Case
Like, makes it so much harder to deal with. And like, I. This gets so complicated because really shitty people get involved on certain sides of the argument where you're like, oh, but I. Can we just have some nuance here for. For some of these characters. Like, it is complicated having a lot of characters having the same code name. Like, that's just the thing. And like, yes, it is fine for certain types of characters, like Green Lantern, where they just become known by their. By their actual name. Some of the. Some characters, it's just more difficult to make that happen. And even characters who are legacy characters, like the Flash like, it feels weird when you have a bunch of them, like, operating simultaneously.

01:06:13
Case
Like Jay Garrick as, like, a retired Flash who every now and then helps out is one thing that is very different from, like, oh, but we also have two current Flashes and also kind of sort of. Two current Kid Flashes, I was gonna say.

01:06:25
Austin
And there's Kid Flash, too, which is not a distinct name. I've always loved the name Kid Flash because it's. It's, like, so ridiculous and dumb. Side note, at the request of my fiance, who has been rereading the new Teen Titans, she thought it important that I brought up that they often call Kid Flasher as a nickname, which is delightful and stupid, really.

01:06:44
Case
But, yeah, is the marvel of Monera.

01:06:48
Austin
Yes, yes. Yep. They've all got nicknames. Kid Flash's is often Flasher. Not well thought out on that one.

01:06:56
Case
Marv, also the person who wrote the infamous panel where it's just like, you always make fun of me for being a Midwest conservative.

01:07:05
Austin
Yeah, my. Yep. My fiance sent me that screenshot as soon as she got to that, since she knows I'm a Flash fan, and I was like, yep. I mostly just retconned that out of Exit. I mostly just believe that he, you.

01:07:18
Case
Know, progressed because, like, yeah, Wally having a shitty conservative dad is actual canon. So it makes sense that him, like, developing as a person over the course of his life would happen, especially, like, you know, mid-70s. Like, 70s, 80s. So I guess Newton 10s was mostly mid-80s. Like, you know, there's a pretty strong Reagan wave that people hadn't realized was as insidious as it was. You know, if we want to go into a big, you know, diatribe here, which, hey, this is the Men of Steel podcast, and thank you for coming.

01:07:50
Austin
So who's more political than Steel?

01:07:53
Case
Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I find it as less of a weird situation for a character to be, like, openly conservative in the era of pre. Now. Pre now. But especially pre 9 11.

01:08:08
Austin
Yeah, there definitely is a different connotation. And, like, we have a hindsight. And of course, it's like, people should know better. Right? Not like, oh, well, that's. That was the Tank. You know, they say, like, oh, well, it was a product of their time. It's like, well, it was a bad product of their time then. Right. Because a lot of people were saying, this is bad at the time. But I do agree that especially as. Because he's a young character, it makes a lot of sense for him to be there. And the whole. When he takes up a Post crisis, when he takes up the mantle of Flash is about him unlearning all of that garbage, you know, all of his selfishness and all of his, like. Yeah. Self selfish. Right. That's the big part of a character.

01:08:44
Case
Yeah. So I. I'm cool with a character who. Who grows over time. And that's a thing I like about Wally. And that's what. Kind of a bummer about losing Wally as like, a main character. Even if they keep trying to make him sort of a. The. The lead in some of the books and not all the book, you know, it. Whatever they're doing to sort of.

01:09:01
Austin
Well, he's the Flash again. So. Yeah, he's the only one.

01:09:06
Case
For the moment.

01:09:08
Austin
For the moment. We'll see what happens there. They destroy. They. I hate the white eyes. I hate the white eyes. Can't believe they brought back the.

01:09:16
Case
Really? Okay.

01:09:18
Austin
I don't like the white eyes at all. And. Yeah. And then now he's got a new costume that I also don't think, like, look very good. I like his combo Flash. Kid Flash thing that was, like. It was all red, but his hair was still out, I think hair's hair. He's got red hair. It's iconic. His hair should be out. That's just me.

01:09:34
Case
This is a big deviation into, like, Flash costume stuff, which I feel like I want to have with you, but is. No, it's too much on this.

01:09:42
Austin
We're so off track. We're so off track. I knew it would be. I'm a. I'm a real.

01:09:48
Case
Yeah, no, no. But I. I love it because I. I do have strong feelings about the Flash costumes. Like, I don't know, like, when Flash is the Flash, I don't think he should have exposed hair because I think when Wally is the Flash, like, he's the Flash. Like, the Flash, I don't think should have the exposed hair. But when you have Barry running around and Wally running around, I'm like, yes, no, obviously have the exposed hair, because then that makes sense to distinguish him from the looks. Now. The white eyes, I feel is iconic to the Wally west is the Flash costume.

01:10:14
Austin
It's important because it distinguishes him. Right. In that way.

01:10:17
Case
It's important. The V belt, you know, like, it's.

01:10:19
Austin
Like the V belt. Yeah, yeah. But the V belt is better than the circular saw belt, you know?

01:10:23
Case
Right. Yes. It's a speary look part right there. Hey, why don't we jump on over to Superman 709, which is not really a race, per se. And I was so mad that I had to reread this issue.

01:10:36
Austin
This is a weird issue if I'm thinking of the same one.

01:10:39
Case
So there's no reason that I should be mad that the way that being mad about, like, Ethan Van Cyver. This is just part of the Superman grounded storyline, which is the story arc that J. Michael Straczynski wrote on Superman, where he decided just to walk across America for about 12 issues, and while he was doing it, kept stumbling into Kryptonian artifacts that were everywhere. And so in this scenario, he stumbled into a Kryptonian artifact that was a headband of memory for Kryptonian that the Flash put on by accident and was.

01:11:13
Austin
Now running by stupid is why he put it. He was like, I just had to try. Come on, Barry.

01:11:19
Case
Now. I like some of the quality.

01:11:21
Austin
No, it is Barry.

01:11:21
Case
It is Barry again. And. And it's. It's very definitively Barry. Like, the. The writing.

01:11:26
Austin
It's important. Yeah.

01:11:27
Case
The writing feels like Barry. The fact that he's, like. Feels weird about being Bart's grandfather is there. And, like, that's kind of cool. I like those moments there. And Barry makes sense as a character who would run around just spouting fiction or not fiction, spouting historical trivia, like, you know, that just sort of makes sense for the character.

01:11:42
Austin
Like, he's a big dork.

01:11:43
Case
Yeah, exactly. And I kind of enjoy the trivia. Like, I enjoy the bit of, like, the sign of a Kryptonian free man is, like, the headband going.

01:11:51
Austin
Yeah.

01:11:51
Case
Like, there is interesting stuff in there bit. And, like, the. The house of El and like, the sort of, like, Etruscan Roman, like, we. We freed ourselves from alien overlords kind of thing was cool. Like, I dug it all.

01:12:03
Austin
There is really cool stuff in there. The notion that Flash put on a headband and he is now doing, like, a history show, middle school pageantry, where everyone's in costumes.

01:12:14
Case
Yeah.

01:12:15
Austin
That I could have left.

01:12:18
Case
I mean, it was certainly a dramatic moment where all of a sudden, everyone was wearing costumes, but then they were like, these feel, like, slapped together.

01:12:26
Austin
Yeah.

01:12:27
Case
Like, very pageantry. Okay, cool. And so Superman catches up to the Flash, who's, like, running rampant, and he's like, I was trying to let you catch me. Which means that this race doesn't really matter. And what matters more in terms of the actual races that we're talking about is an issue that I didn't read for this, which is the. I believe it's the. The relaunched Superboy series number five, where Superboy races Kid Flash.

01:12:49
Austin
I did also skip that one.

01:12:51
Case
And when I say I skipped it.

01:12:53
Austin
I'm glad we all decided. That was exhilarating.

01:12:54
Case
There. There are so many adjacent races that we could discuss. Oh, yeah, there are Bizarro Reverse Flash races. There are Kid Flash Superboy races. There are Flash Superboy races. There are Superman Kid Flash races. Like, there's. There's stuff out there that we. We could look at. And again, then we. At that point, we start getting into the, like. Well, what about the time that the Flash raced against someone else who was, like, really powerful in a cool way? Again, I referenced the Zoom race from. From JLA issue three. So, like, we. We could go down this line because the Flash shockingly runs against a lot of characters who are super fast. Like, that seems to be his deal, especially on the TV show.

01:13:34
Case
So, like, you know, if we wanted to, like, look at every race the Flash has ever done, this would be a different podcast. But in. In looking at these, you know. Yeah, you know, sure, there's. There's ones that, like, kind of feel like we should probably talk about them, but, you know, what are we gonna do?

01:13:51
Austin
Yes, we will.

01:13:52
Case
No, I don't know. This one made it into the list of, like, races, but it's not really a race. Superman catches up to it. Like, we also didn't look at the issue of justice where Captain Marvel has to catch up to the Flash. And, like, it's the same situation where it's like, these are all just kind of times where the Flash has been moving very fast and someone had to catch him, but he had enough free will to restrict it. So it's not like it really is comprehensive. In fact, he goes out of his way to be like, I let you catch me.

01:14:20
Austin
I let you catch me. I was holding back. I mean, the same thing happens with Jay Garrick where Jay Garrick steals Superman's speed. A thing that comes up in the issue where Superman and Wally are racing, and he's like, I could steal Superman's speed right here with the Speed Force, but then he would be a, like, indestructible brick hurtling at 1500 miles an hour through the planet. It would destroy a lot of things. But, yeah, he, like. So it's like he cheated and steals his speed. You know, it's. We gotta leave the door open for anyone to be faster than anyone in the future. So, yeah, but Barry was holding back so that Clark could catch him. Much more interesting, I think, is the conversation in this issue where they talk about legacy and Superman's like. Yeah. Never really considered it. It's.

01:14:59
Austin
To me, it's like this. This weird contrivance just builds up a good conversation. Which again is like. That's the way more interesting part of the comic is these two characters sitting down and talking and interacting. Acting.

01:15:10
Case
Yeah. And so like the. The grounded arc ends with this revelation of Superman having the like the. The League of Superman like spawning off of him, which is like very much adjacent to the House of L concept that we have seen more recently in Superman books. Either way, like this idea that there would be like all these Superman. Like the ones that show up in All Star Superman J Mike, like that. That group is. Is. Is this group that they reference that Superman would spawn. And at the beginning of this issue, he's hanging out with what is it? Super Chief who's like a character who's inspired by Superman. So they. This. The grounded arc ends with this idea that Superman starts a legacy of Superman into the future. And the Flashes, especially since the. I mean going.

01:15:54
Case
Going from the Jay Garrick to Barry Allen transfer. But like especially with the Mark Waid like legacy era for the character. Like the Flash is a big fan of the legacy of the Flash name. Like we have a pretty good idea about every single Flash between now and the 30th century.

01:16:09
Austin
Yep. There's. I think to me the interesting. There's. There's several overlaps between Superman and Flash that make them really similar characters. Like you've kind of talked about. Flash is kind of this version of Superman. But one of the interesting places where they differ and not always differ because comic books, but is legacy. Right. The Flash is a legacy character from the get go. He's the one who introduced a Flash of two worlds. We introduced the multiverse and the notion that Barry is the first of these characters to been passed the baton and acknowledge it in the fiction. And then he has Kid Flash. A character who has his name originally was just the Flash who was a kid. He had the same costume. You know, like this. This is. This is the. This is the legacy character.

01:16:56
Austin
All of Batman's characters are like sidekicks to him. Right. And they go off to form their own identities sometimes. Nightwing is the most important obviously, but Superman obviously expands the Kryptonian. Like there's more Kryptonians, but he's like. It always comes back to the last and of Krypton. And the notion that like is he inherently doomed to be alone because of his great power or does that allow his great hit power, allow him to empathize More. And he is like, thus more open to everyone else. And so I think that when you put these two characters together and you talk about legacy and it's like Superman, not really considering that he has any, but actually he does because he's so inspirational.

01:17:34
Austin
And Flash being like, yeah, though it's a thing I've dealt with from day one, I think that you really strike on, like, it's the perfect thing for them to be talking about.

01:17:42
Case
It's the best thing that is part of what is. Is a really rough arc of the character where Superman, Forrest Gump style, is just crossing America and dealing with everyone. But the legacy component is an interesting one that is a big part of it and will be circled back to because a version of Superwoman shows up and reveals that there will be this whole legacy for the character and there will be a Superman 2, and there will be all these Superman leading to the events of DC1 million, where Superman of the 853rd century welcomes back his great, great, great a million times grandfather coming out of the sun to welcome everyone into the future. Like, Superman has the potential for that legacy, but he is always the main character in the story. Whereas the Flash has moved on.

01:18:32
Case
The way you've pointed out, we have Jigarek, we have Barry Allen, we have Wally west, as you said, Kid Flash being like. Like, just wearing the carbon copy costume and then like, having that sense of legacy built into the character. We. We've seen it, whereas we have been told it's going to happen with Superman. But, like, every time that they've tried to introduce a character that could be the next Superman, like, it always circles back to the original one because he's not just the original Superman, he's the original superhero.

01:19:00
Austin
Yep. And it's super interesting in this issue talking about, like. Like, he just has Superboy for the. You know, he has Kara, but she's. It's more like a sip. You know, she's his cousin. It's. He's less a mentor to her and more like a good friend who has more experience or, you know, really a sibling who has more experience. Connor or, you know, the. Superboy is the first like, of his legacy, and he's kind of dealing with it. He's talking to Barry, who's had Wally, who is this surrogate's son for so long, and now his own grandson is here. And so, you know, it's like, hey, I'm just getting started on this having a kid, a superhero kind of journey. How did you handle it? And Barry being like, well, let me tell you how I handled it back then.

01:19:41
Austin
I've got this whole new problem, which is that my grandson is here. But I'm doing my. You know, I figured out the first.

01:19:46
Case
Part so of this whole new problem. My grandson is here. And not only my grandfather, my grandson is Bart. Jesus Christ.

01:19:53
Austin
I know. Oh, my God. To meet your own grandson for the future. But then also, it's Bart. It's a one, two punch, and I love Bart.

01:20:01
Case
Like Impulse, the Mark Waid Umberto Ramos run on Impulse is one of my favorite runs of all comics. Like, to the point where it is. It's up there in like, the top three, at least.

01:20:14
Austin
Where is it that he's like. He's like, oh, yeah, I read all of the. I speed read all of the San Francisco Public Library or something like that.

01:20:21
Case
What was your favorite book? And he's like, none of them.

01:20:24
Austin
Like them.

01:20:26
Case
Yeah, that's Geoff John's Titans right after he got shot by Deathstroke.

01:20:30
Austin
Oh, good times.

01:20:31
Case
Yeah. That's when he switches from being Impulse to being Kid Flash.

01:20:36
Austin
Okay.

01:20:37
Case
Yeah. Which a change. I was the. The Jeff John I have. Sorry for beating this. Sorry for beating this drum. You can check off your bingo card. The Geoff Johns Teen Titans run is one that I have problems with because it felt very dismissive of everything that had been right up until that moment where it was just like, how do we remake comics to look like the 70s and 80s? Like, how do we bring back the new Teen Titans, basically? And so part of that was like, we're going to simplify Superboy by saying that he's a clone of Lex Luthor and Superman, which had not been the situation prior to that. And the way they dismissed it was to say, we never knew who your parents were, but actually we always did. Like, we had for a really long time.

01:21:19
Case
And it was just like, just say that our information was wrong or that we lied. Don't forget that you had, like, had an origin story for the character and then just pretend like you never did. And then likewise, Impulse became Kid Flash, and I didn't really care for that. Simultaneously, Cyborg went back to his, like, 80s look, which didn't make sense because his body had been mostly reduced to like, just a head inside a techno organic body. You know, like all these characters, like, went back, like, reverted into, like, the sort of look to look more like the, you know, the Marv Wolfman George Perez era for the characters or to, like, fit in better that way. And like, I like the Book overall, just fine.

01:21:55
Case
But it did feel like very like ham fisted in terms of how they like took Young justice and beat it into being the new Teen Titans book.

01:22:03
Austin
Yeah. How do we sell, how do we keep selling comics in a world where we've destroyed the comics selling ecosystem? Appeal to the people who used to read them, basically.

01:22:12
Case
Yeah. Any moving on to up in the sky issue 4?

01:22:20
Austin
We got it right here, folks.

01:22:22
Case
Nice, nice. So this is a. A damn good, huge book that is done entirely in splash pages, which is usually reserved for, like, big fights. Like the. The final fight between Superman and Doomsday was an issue entirely in splash pages. Here it's the full race.

01:22:38
Austin
Yeah, it's pretty impressive. I think that this is hands down the best issue of all of the races between them.

01:22:47
Case
You're goddamn right. Because Superman wins.

01:22:49
Austin
Superman does win.

01:22:51
Case
Now.

01:22:53
Austin
I feel bad saying, here's the thing, it's the best one. And it hurts because as the Flash fan, I mean, obviously we're all fans of everything, but as the guy wearing the Flash sweatshirt on the podcast, Flash is not a character in this. He's an obstacle. Right, Right. Like, this is a story about Superman and the triumph of Superman's will, which is the whole what the whole comic, what up in the sky is all about.

01:23:14
Case
It's also potential.

01:23:15
Austin
Barry is just kind of a pain.

01:23:16
Case
In the way, like, and I think that needs to be taken into account as well, because it is a story being told about the race by someone who is hoping for Superman to save her. So the. The details being muddied especially for, like, this appears to be the first race. Right. Like, it looks like it does.

01:23:34
Austin
Yeah.

01:23:35
Case
An updated version of that first race with the photo finish, like, finish line. And you could imagine that anyone could have been like, no, Superman won that race. No Flash won that race. Like, it doesn't really matter. Like, she's someone who's holding on to dear hope that Superman's going to save her. She remembers Superman winning that race, even though it looked like he wasn't going to because he had to. To, you know, screw over Lex Luthor.

01:23:59
Austin
Yeah. To get one over. You can't let Lex Luthor win. Come on. I mean, it's just so good. It's another case of, like, the supervillain plotting is clever. I respect that. I feel like it's really easy to do stupid supervillain stuff. And I respect whenever. Because here's the thing about writing a clever supervillain. You got to be clever. You actually have to be a writer who's Clever. You know, being able to come up with a good plot or write a good line of dialogue is not necessarily clever. Makes. So I'm always impressed when, you know, it's. It's not crazy. Right. It's not like some wheels within wheels. But the notion that he came up with this plan and he knew Superman would hear and it would devastate him is very Lex Luthor. I love that.

01:24:36
Austin
And I mean, you know, this issue opens with what why are we here on this podcast. The line that starts this issue, which is there was once a race. I guess there had to be. Like, we just have to. People, the people in universe and out of universe just have to know. For. For some reason it's. It's in our bones who's faster? Like, we. We can't. We can't escape it. It. We just need to know.

01:25:01
Jmike
It reminds me of that age old question, who would want to fight Superman or Goku? And then we have all those videos about it.

01:25:11
Austin
Yeah. We're all like, we're driven to know.

01:25:14
Case
Yeah. And here's the thing that like, kind of sucks if we really want to get into examples. Superman can definitely fly faster than the Flash can run. Like, Superman has repeatedly flown faster than speed of light. Even in the post crisis era. He was nerfed. He was able to like, travel like interstellar distances under its own power. The Flash is definitely a faster runner and like, and can run in ways that like, break physics and is the barometer for like, how we gauge super fast characters. So I think the Flash is faster, but Superman probably has a better travel spot speed, you know?

01:25:47
Austin
Yeah, I mean, it's tough. It's like, well, Barry, sorry. The Flash can move so fast that he transcends time dimensions and then reality up into the Speed Force. So it's like, I don't know, does that make him faster? He. Superman flies so fast, he covers light years. But Wally runs so fast, he runs into the outside of all reality physics engine that powers space time. Like, you know, it's.

01:26:12
Case
Yeah, well, exactly.

01:26:14
Austin
I don't know. Who knows? Come on.

01:26:16
Jmike
Yeah, I guess like you said, the Flash should never lose a ground. A ground race because he's the Flash. And the speed Force breaks everything. Well. And like, it literally breaks everything.

01:26:29
Case
And it behaves differently between the two of them when they go faster than the speed of light. Superman travels through time with a lot of precision when he goes faster than the speed of light, even in the versions where he isn't able to do so under his own power and he has to have, like, something boost him. He's been able to do so fairly well. The Speed Force behaves differently than a non Speed Force character. I guess. Like Superman has his own kind of thing when he moves faster than the speed of Light and versus like a Speed Force character. If they exceed this, exceed the speed of light goes into the Speed Force and can come out at different points. And there's all kinds of weirdness.

01:27:09
Austin
However, there's no consistency, however the writer.

01:27:12
Case
Wants it to be.

01:27:13
Austin
It's impossible to exist and everyone's needed it for different storytelling reasons. So, you know, whatever. It's a million different things. It's an afterlife, It's a reality. It's outside of all of the different parallel universes powering all of them. Like, yeah, whatever, who cares?

01:27:29
Case
Yeah, it's an aspect of the source. It's. It's not an aspect of the source. It's its own thing. There's. There's the strength force, the force of nature.

01:27:40
Austin
Yeah, it's the fifth fundamental force of reality.

01:27:43
Case
Right.

01:27:43
Austin
Often times, I think, along with strong, weak gravity and electromagnetic.

01:27:48
Jmike
It's.

01:27:48
Austin
It's.

01:27:48
Jmike
It's a thing. We could just say it's. It's a thing. It's a comic McGuffin that we use wherever we need to.

01:27:56
Case
But all that is extrapolating on the. On the key issues of Superman vs. The Flash, where Superman is all of these powers and he's pretty goddamn close to the best at all of them, versus the Flash is the best at this one thing. That one thing has been expanded upon to include the sort of like semi divine kind of element of it all. But it's still just super speed, like in its purest form. Just like, how much super speed. So much super speed that, like, it becomes. It becomes God.

01:28:26
Austin
Yeah, it's very deep power set, as opposed to a very wide power. Right, right.

01:28:31
Case
And depth comes from that. From that power. Or rather a breadth comes from the depth of that power. Like his durability is. Is up there as a result of his power, but it is super speed first that creates the durability for the character.

01:28:45
Austin
Yeah, it's. It's all these retroactive, you know, justifications for how we can get these powers in there. It's like, because he is. He is the fast, there is no one else that is the fast. There are other characters that are fast, but he is capital letter F fast.

01:29:00
Case
So I want to move on to other media, please. So I rewatched the second season episode Of Superman the animated series, where he has the race of the Flash. I think we all looked at. I also looked at, just for fun, the fourth season episode of Smallville Run.

01:29:20
Austin
I. I didn't watch the whole episode. I watched the end clip because I find Smallville a little insufferable. I don't like. I don't like the show, but I.

01:29:30
Case
Also watched the season one crossover episode. I believe it's called world's finest. It might be called speeding bullets of Supergirl. When the flashlight shows up in that episode, Even though that's not really a race episode at all. I was just like, looking for, like, crossover media. And here's a thesis I have about Superman Flash races, that it is an early thing in the multiverse or the shared universe. Not the multiverse. The shared universe of the characters. Like the. The race between Superman and the Flash is a really easy one to explain.

01:30:00
Case
And so it allows for the universe of superheroes to expand in a way that is additive because you can all of a sudden have these two characters who are friendly with each other, but clearly have their own respective supporting cast and so forth, come together and do a thing and then kind of part ways and not necessarily need to always be bumping into each other. It doesn't have to be like a Marvel New York situation where all the characters are constantly on top of each.

01:30:28
Austin
Other, but it's a good source of friendly conflict. Right. We don't need to set up huge stakes, but we got some conflict for this 30 minute episode.

01:30:36
Case
Yeah. And we have two different superpowered characters who can exist independently of each other coming together. Like, there is a reason why the first superhero to show up on the Superman animated series is the Flash. Like, that crossover is the first time we get another superhero showing up in that series. Not if as long. You know, don't count Lobo now.

01:31:00
Austin
Yeah, no, but Lobo's antagonist, right?

01:31:02
Case
Yeah, he's a villain of the episode.

01:31:03
Austin
Like a bit like counting Harley Quinn in Batman as like, well, it's because later on she's. No, she's antagonist.

01:31:10
Case
This is before the Batman episode. Like, this is. You know, this is. Yeah, the Flash shows up and it's sort of like, oh, yeah, the Flash is a superhero of a different city. And like, I think it's also.

01:31:18
Austin
Easy to get people to sign off on using. Right. You're like, we're gonna put Batman in the show. They're like, what would editorial.

01:31:25
Case
People don't like it.

01:31:26
Austin
And then they're like, what if the Flash, they're like, who?

01:31:29
Case
Yeah, put them in there. Look at the super.

01:31:33
Austin
Kill him. We don't care.

01:31:34
Case
But both Supergirl and Smallville, they're both scenarios where these are the first character that is a metahuman outside in Smallville, they're like, oh, it's the first time I've encountered someone who has superpowers who's not from Smallville.

01:31:45
Austin
Yes.

01:31:46
Case
And then in Supergirl, they're from different dimensions, and that's how they, like, connect those two characters in the first place. So I think there's something to it that these two characters, like. Like, think about this. Like, Jim shooter in the 60s was like, hey, I've always wanted to do a race between these two characters because it makes sense. That's the kind of comic book thinking that would become all comic books eventually. But at the time, that was a groundbreaking idea. Like, crossovers just didn't exist for characters this way. And, like, even things like the Justice League, which existed by this point, was like its own book where all these characters came together. They didn't just, like, show up in each other's world all the time. And then this race is, like, one of the.

01:32:30
Case
One of the ways that comics, like, brings the broader universe of DC Comics together somehow. Like, and it's just, like, a fascinating detail about this thing.

01:32:41
Austin
Yeah, it. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, it's.

01:32:43
Case
Sorry, I feel like I've buried the light here. This is. But this is actually my thesis about the Flash, Superman races. That it is the. That this is the opening up of a broader world of super hero stuff when it's introduced every time, including the first race in the actual comics, like, is an ex. Like an explosion of the. The shared universe of the character after that point and prior to that point, it doesn't exist in the same way.

01:33:08
Austin
There's a very interesting observation. It's, like, super curious that it is specifically this. Is it because, like, it's a friendly competition that allows for it. Is it. I don't know. Like, the Flash seems to just kind of fit in very well with a lot of other characters. Superman is ubiquitous. He's obviously going to be everywhere. Is it just this perfect storm? This, like, chemical reaction that can't be replicated much? Like the experiment that caused the Flash to get his powers? Is that, like.

01:33:33
Case
Well, but that can be.

01:33:34
Austin
Right. It happened.

01:33:37
Case
Yeah.

01:33:37
Austin
It's happened a couple times, actually.

01:33:39
Case
Thrice because of Eobard Tharn.

01:33:40
Austin
Eobard Tharn is also. Yep. Going off Barry's notes. You're like, if Barry's notes exist and you're able to replicate it. Like, we should have probably a lot of those guys running around actually. But. But regardless, yeah, it's. It's super fascinating to me that this is the case and that it's not, you know, like, you know, Shazam has the speed of mercury.

01:33:58
Case
Right.

01:33:59
Austin
You know, why not? But it's. It's these two guys over and over again. And yeah, there seems to be a just this through. Maybe it's just because it was done first and everyone has been following in shooter's footsteps there.

01:34:10
Case
Well, so the bigger part on that one is also we have to remember what the Silver Age Flash was to comics in general. Like, the Silver Age Flash is the reason why the Silver Age exists in general. And so he's in a lot of ways the representative of DC Comics Silver Age, you know, full stop. Like, he ushered in the. The new Silver Age. Like, sure, you could argue that Martian Manhunter did. You can make arguments that the first Silver Age issue was an issue of Batman, an issue of Superman. There's all, you know, like, where the Silver Age starts in DC Comics is its own thing. But generally speaking, Showcase what I want to say 5, but I. Or 56 something. What's the first appearance of Barry Allen?

01:34:53
Austin
It's a good question. I don't know. Yeah, it's somewhere around there. Like, 56 sounds right. They all start to. I say I've said blur together a lot, which is appropriate.

01:35:00
Case
But Showcase four, okay, so I was closest when I said Showcase five. Showcase four is the first appearance of Barry Allen. And like, that is the ushering in of the dc, like the DC Silver Age. And so the race between Superman, who is the. The pinnacle of D.C. Golden Age concept, like that. He is the. He is DC Comics as an institution. And then the Flash is the Update for the 60s of that institution.

01:35:31
Austin
Yeah, he's that. He's that science fiction. He, he and Green Lantern. Yeah. And Marshal Manhood. They're that science fiction bend that was kind of missing all the time. This, this new obsession with like, you know, how. The same way the Fantastic Four and Hulk and Spider man are all these characters who get their powers from. From these science fiction sources. Like, yeah, he is that new wave.

01:35:51
Case
Right?

01:35:51
Austin
Kind of. Kind of. And he's kind of quintessential to it. He's maybe the. Maybe the. He. He and Greenlant are both sort of the best versions of that. That.

01:35:59
Case
Sure. And the science fiction components of that. But like, I mean, but when we get down to it again, the Flash is really similar to Superman in a way that even Green Lantern isn't. Like, Green Lantern is power wise. Like, similar to Superman in the sense of the raw potency of their abilities, even though they have very different powers that they have in their disposal. But the Flash is really similar in concept. Like, he's got a similar love life situation. He, you know, again, has all the classic Superman situations in his civilian identity of having to be in two places at once and having to sneak around and do all these things. These are all things that Flash can deal with. Like they. And they have similar kind of situations because like, Flash is a reporter girlfriend also.

01:36:42
Case
And like, yeah, like the Flash is just so similar, especially the Barry Allen Flash. Like more so than Wally or Jay or Bart. Jesse in different ways. Jesse has some similarities to Superman in that she also has super strength and can fly, but Barry is. Jesse can run on air just like her dad. And she.

01:37:07
Austin
I was gonna say Johnny can do that too. Right? That's like a thing that they can. Yeah.

01:37:10
Case
When you say 3x2 9yz4a, all of a sudden you're just able to move at super speed and run on air.

01:37:15
Austin
That was impressive. That I didn't know that. Yeah, it was impressive to pull that out like that.

01:37:21
Case
It is embarrassing how much I have like practiced saying that out loud just in case.

01:37:27
Austin
Just in case. It's pretty impressive.

01:37:29
Jmike
It doesn't just. It only needs to work one time.

01:37:34
Case
But anyway, Barry I just think is a very similar character in concept to Superman, but he's the Silver Age update to that. And you know, you can see when you look at the two of them at the starting line, like they, you know, Superman is blue with a red cape and Flash is much sleeker with this like, red bodysuit. And they have these distinct silhouettes from each other. But. But you're like, okay, yeah, this is the iterative process of comic books right here.

01:37:57
Case
And Superman is this like this broad set of powers that we discuss as being like very classic to the Golden Age kind of thing versus when you get to the Silver Age characters, really enjoy having specific singular powers that you can build upon and have these like big power sets that are all speed based in this case or like fire based in the human torches case or you know, web based in Spider Man's case. Like you can. It's so it. It is an avenue to creativity by way of restricting things as opposed to Superman, where you have to be very creative to be like, well, if you can do literally Everything. Like how. How do you tell a creative and interesting story? Like, you have to find a way to restrict it in some way or to be clever in some way.

01:38:43
Case
And restriction is just making them run. And that's. Then you. Then all of a sudden, you're just dealing with the Flash.

01:38:48
Austin
Yeah, I think you're very. You said a lot of. A lot of interesting things. And the similarity between the Flash and Superman, which brings them into the same conflict over and over again, I think is the reason that I like them both. I was. So I said, I've been a Flash fan for a long time. I was definitely a naysayer on Superman for a while. And I would say. I mean, I've been into Superman, you know, reading Superman stuff, and a big fan of the character for more than, you know, 10 years, which is a long time to some people, but a short time in the time that I've been reading comic books. Right. It's taken me a long time to come around on Superman and be like, I think that there is so much depth here.

01:39:29
Austin
But one of the things that made me really fall in love with him, and there are many things I love about the character, but one of the things I really fall in love with him is the same reason I love the Flash. And it's. The question for both of them is, like, when you can do anything, what do you do? Because that's not a question for Batman. Batman is very limited, and he does all he can. So the question is, how far can he push himself? Right. That's the thing for Batman's character, and then for other characters have other kind of limitations. But for Superman and for Flash, there kind of seems to be no limit to what they can accomplish. They can be in all places at once. Superman can withstand any threat. Flash can respond to any threat.

01:40:11
Austin
Flash can travel through time to fix mistakes that have happened. And we've seen the consequences of that. You know, I think that they both have that question of, like, well, you can do anything, right? You. You don't have any limits. The rest of us have limits. It's a power fantasy in that way to be able to accomplish all the things you'd want. Be able to do.

01:40:31
Case
Yes, exactly.

01:40:32
Austin
Flash can save everyone from the building, and then he can go speed read how to build a building and then create one for everyone so they have a new home all in under, you know, 20 seconds. There's this power like, well, you. You can do anything. What do you do then? Where do you draw the line? And how do you use It. And I think they're both super interesting. For me, it was the. It started with the Flash, and I loved him for that reason. I loved his stories. And I've come to realize that Superman is much the same way. And I've come to really love Superman as, to me, he's the ultimate father character in all of media. And I just. I'm obsessed with that.

01:41:07
Case
And you could kind of see that is the evolution of comic heroes in general. And so we're just getting back to the roots where, like, two. One, the very literal prototype of superheroism and then a very early offshoot, which are both compelling in ways that are just going to remain as such. It's a story that we want to keep telling, and these are two iterations on that we want to root for and then root for against each other in a race. It's gonna keep happening. Yeah.

01:41:40
Austin
We want them both to win, and honestly, they often do.

01:41:43
Case
Yeah. Who's the. Who's the real winner? Us.

01:41:47
Austin
And, you know, I will say, though, so in the Animated Series, the race never ends because they're dealing with Weather Wizard. But. And so it ends with, like, oh, let's do another race. We never find out who wins. But. But in Justice League Unlimited, the episode where they visit the Flash Museum, there is a display referencing the race, and it does declare Flash is the winner. So.

01:42:11
Jmike
I mean, technically, you know, he should never lose any of those races, but, you know, Superman's the best. Well, that's all there is to it. The end.

01:42:21
Case
I mean, it kind of depends. Like, I honestly think that he should have lost, like, that first race of Wally post crisis. Like, I think that the fact that he won is impressive for Wally and speaks to his, like, secret, like, greater power. But, like, if Superman is going to keep up with Wally now, he should have easily won in the race at that point, just because that's, you know, again, the issue of the Flash always being the barometer for how fast characters are.

01:42:51
Austin
Yeah. Exit.

01:42:51
Case
Yeah. Yeah, man. It's so interesting how this primal, you know, the races are weird. Like, I was thinking about this every time I like, each. Each issue. Like, certain artists are better at it than others. But, like, races are hard to do in a comic and make compelling. You know, like, some of the ones that are really good are just because there's so much going on in the individual issues. Like that first race in issue 199. Like, that's a Kurt Swan issue, and Kurt Swan is, like, a great figure drawn or, like, Illustrator, but he's not necessarily the most dynamic. Action drawing or action drawing person, Action pencil or action art illustrator. I have the words for it. I don't need to be, like, drawing person.

01:43:34
Austin
The boy's stiff, but the boys be stiff in that issue a little.

01:43:39
Case
And it's not that he has bad figures. Like, look at the COVID and, like, you can see that, like, there's. There's good dynamism in, like, the poses for the characters, but just like, it's not Jack Kirby in terms of just like the, you know, the. The raw energy of. Of each panel. And the. The reason why that issue is interesting is because there's so much going on in every single page.

01:43:58
Austin
Like, yes, dense.

01:44:00
Case
It. It is extremely dense. And so, like, the shots of the race are almost incidental because there's so much story happening throughout the whole thing. And, like, you get artists like Howard Porter or with Jose Luis Garcia Lopez, who is, you know, an infamous illustrator. Infamous is the wrong word because he's. He's. He's famous. He's the one who basically did all their merch designs for the 80s and 90s because he's just, like, such a clean penciler. You know, we. We get good pencilers working on this that are doing dynamic jobs to tell the story. But. But running is difficult to convey when there is no actual motion.

01:44:35
Austin
Yeah, it's kind of a weird that, you know, the. The punch has. Has effect. Right. There's the puncher and the punchee. And so I think it's maybe a little easier to. To convey how dynamic that is. And yeah, with running, you really got to be like, if you just draw someone in a comic running the way humans run, it's going to look like a casual jog.

01:44:59
Case
Yeah.

01:45:00
Austin
You know, you really got to stretch and pull it, and it takes a lot of creativity to make it dynamic and interesting, I think.

01:45:09
Case
Yeah. And not to say that it is easy to make it look interesting in, say, movies or tv. Like, the history of the special effects in all these, like, flash TV shows and movies and the Smallville episode, the characters, it's difficult to make it look that compelling.

01:45:26
Austin
You didn't like John Wesley Shipp's flash from the 90s.

01:45:29
Case
You know, they were doing the best job they could at the time, but.

01:45:31
Austin
I thought it was all right. Honestly, I watched a lot of that.

01:45:34
Case
But. But the special effects, like, just making running with super speed look good is difficult. And, like, that's why so many movies have recently settled in on just, like, having slow mo around a character moving at normal speed. Because that's the only way to, like, kind of sell it and have it not look completely insane. Because having a character move really fast just, like. Look, we've seen the shots of Grant Gustin running sometimes where it's just like that. That just looks weird.

01:46:05
Austin
Yeah, it's tough. I do not envy them, those special effects people with their air cannons to make it look like he just ran out of the room.

01:46:13
Case
Yeah. Races are hard to illustrate in general, and they're hard to do in comics. They're. They're easier to do in some other formats. Like, I think that, like, the Animated Series did a really good job with it because it has the benefit of being animated series. You can just show them run on water and, like, sell that they're both fast enough to run. It looks great.

01:46:29
Austin
Like, the way they run on it. And then there's the big plume of water. Kind of delayed. Looks awesome.

01:46:35
Case
Yeah, yeah. Very, very good effects there.

01:46:37
Austin
Like, which Superman does fly in that episode, by the way, Part of that race. He does fly, so it's not even fully a foot race.

01:46:44
Case
Well, he flies when they. When they start breaking all the rules.

01:46:47
Austin
I guess you're right.

01:46:48
Case
Yeah. When they're officially doing the race, they're running. Because that's why we have Superman running on water in that sequence. But, yeah, I mean, speaking of which, we get the tried and true. We've got the charity race format in that one going for them. And we also have the tried and true. There's a sensor on the character that allows us to track them. And thus is drawing power for some nefarious plot. In this case, Weather Wizard. I'm surprised it wasn't Abracadabra. In retrospect, it feels like.

01:47:17
Austin
Yeah, it's such a weird, like. Yeah, Weather Wizard. That looks like this costume's terrible. It's like such a. I don't know. I know. Like, it's a Superman show. You're like. I mean, whether was. It's gonna be one and done. We're not bringing this guy back. But, yeah, it does feel like. It does feel like Abracadabra would have been equally appropriate, but whatever.

01:47:38
Jmike
Yeah, they always use Weather wizard, like, the. The most random episodes because you'll have this one. And I think later on in, like, Justice League. I think it's just League Unlimited. He's in the care after. It's like, part of, like, Power Trio that sends Superman to the future.

01:47:58
Austin
Oh, is that the interesting.

01:47:59
Case
Was he. Yeah, it's like.

01:48:01
Jmike
Was it.

01:48:05
Austin
All I remember from that is it's Toy man, though, who does the. Does the sending. That's interesting that he was part of that too.

01:48:14
Jmike
It's such a good episode.

01:48:15
Case
So long story short, the Animated Series did a really good job illustrating this. All these other ones, like, we have artists who are doing really good work, but it is hard to make a race look that compelling because otherwise they're just. You're just showing people in kind of like static poses because by the very nature of comic book panels, they're. They're freeze frame. Like, look at the. At the Michael Turner cover for the flash 209 mind. It's supposed to be a shot of the JLA chasing the flash. But, like, does it really look like anything necessarily? Like, Michael Turner is a great artist, but, like, the Flash running is just when it. When it is a still frame, it is. Is a person in an action pose. And in this scenario, it's the jla, like, all coming up behind him.

01:48:57
Case
You know, selling it is. Is its own challenge there and, like, making it interesting. Some of these have done a great job of it. Some of these have been less amazing at making the race interesting. But it is. It is a compelling thing that we want to. To see a really good version of because they are both so fast and, like, there's something just, like, primal about, like, who. Who is faster? Like, let's. Let's watch a race. Let's like, you know, the Olympics are popular for a reason.

01:49:22
Austin
Yeah, I guess you're right. Yeah, it is kind of. Yeah. It's sort of the ultimate superhero sporting event other than, I guess, strengthen, which is kind of a thing. But there's so many strong characters. This is just so much more unique and interesting. Yeah, Yeah, I. I think to your point that. Yeah, drawing the focus. To me, drawing the Flash is an unavoidable task. I wonder if there is any, like, Credence. I wonder if there is any, like. I feel like certain, you know, certain characters, certain books get kind of this weight to them and they're like, oh, it takes a special artist. Like, you know, we're only gonna put someone really special or hot or new or something on Spider Man. Right. Because that's a big book. I wonder if there's any people who are like, man, don't get on the Flash.

01:49:58
Austin
Like, you gotta draw people running all the time. It's a nightmare.

01:50:03
Case
I wonder. I mean, like I said, I've read a lot of, like, Howard Porter's writing specifically about working on the Flash, but he was just, like, praising it, coming off of working on the ray. So I think some artists who really gravitate towards working on the Flash figure out a niche in terms of selling the speed. Like, is whether it's like, drawing the lightning around them, the speed lines, like, whatever kind of thing to, like, really kind of sell it. And if you don't have that, then, like, what are you doing?

01:50:30
Austin
Yeah, I've always been partial. Now we're just talking about Flash artists we like, but I've always been partial to Manipul and Bucchilado. I always thought they added a great dynamism, and just the layouts of those comics really helped to sell how fast he was moving.

01:50:44
Case
It's a challenge, but. But when you get a really good artist who has that dynamism, it's. It really is a treat for me. Like, Umberto Ramos with Impulse was always a big one because I thought that he did a really good job of selling a character who just, like, basically teleported around as, like, this puckish trickster type character. So that was always a big one for me.

01:51:04
Austin
Yeah. A character who can't stand not to be there. Right. Like, has to be in all places at once. Like D and D players, when you split them up and they're like, wait, okay, I gotta be there too. I want to say something. I want to say something.

01:51:14
Case
Right, Exactly. On that note, Austin, why don't we wrap up this conversation and give you some space to plug what you've got going on? So you mentioned D and D. Where can people find you and follow you?

01:51:29
Austin
Yes, certainly. So the big project I'm a part of is I am the DMGM occasionally player on my very lucky days on Rolling with difficulty. So it's an actual play. Mostly D and D podcast. We do some other systems every now and again, but mostly D and D podcast. I'm the GM and I play with. If you've listened to this podcast, then you know Red from Overly Sarcastic Productions. I play with her and Sophia, who has also been on the show, also play with her. She's our producer and a player, so you can check that out if you like actual plays. It's very. I find it very comic book inspired. I set it in very science fantasy. It's set in the planescape. It's set in. In the Spelljammer kind of settings.

01:52:10
Austin
I tend to pull a lot from those, from my comic book sources, I think, for inspiration. So if you like D and you like comic books, which of course you do, you're listening to this podcast, maybe give it a Look. And so that's rolling with difficulty. And then if you care to follow me on social media where I don't do all that much but occasionally will say something pithy, I think I'm at. At the Funk. So that's Hefunk on Blue sky and the sinking ship that is X. I am still there watching the string quartet play as it goes down in a blaze of glory.

01:52:47
Case
Especially. Especially nowadays it's so hard to like go back to the hell site that is formerly known as Twitter because there was something special, even though it was a Hell site. And now it's. It's just. It's now it's. It's a hell site that's sold its soul.

01:53:03
Jmike
But.

01:53:03
Case
But we got Blue sky and you can find all of us on Blue Sky. So find Austin there and then. And then come find me at Case Aiken on Bluesky and J Mike. Where can they find you?

01:53:13
Jmike
J5 Bluesky Social I am loving. I found this person that posts nothing but space pics of like from the Hubble Telescope. And it was like the most amazing.

01:53:23
Austin
That's pretty cool.

01:53:23
Case
That's awesome.

01:53:24
Austin
Red. No, Red love space stuff. Red is always letting me know about what space thing is happening. It's like, that's very cool. I'm inside right now.

01:53:33
Jmike
So cool. These pictures are amazing.

01:53:35
Case
That's awesome. Like, that's a bit of positivity right there that the world needs right now. So yeah, you should check us all out on. On Blue sky if you have to. I am still on Twitter at Case Aiken. Or you can go to Instagram where you can find me at quetzalcoatl5 because I am still holding on to my Ames rename from high school. And I was pretentious then and pretentious now, so haha. But more. More realistically, you should come to our Discord server and come interact with us there. You can find a link on our website@ certainpov.com all over the Internet. I post the Discord link like constantly. It's. It's in most of my profiles. So. And then after you check out our Discord server, you can circle it back and check out our next episode. But until then, stay super man.

01:54:25
Jmike
Men of Steel is a Certain POV production. Our hosts are J. Mike Fsen and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sofia Ricciardi. Our logo is by Chris Bautista and episode art is by Case Akin. Our theme is by Jeff Moonan.

01:54:51
Austin
Are you tired of watching your beloved characters being tortured by careless authors? Are you sick of feeling like.

01:54:57
Case
They could have swapped out all of.

01:54:58
Austin
The painful action and the plot would remain untouched. Subscribe to Books that Burn, the Fortnightly book review podcast focusing on fictional depictions of trauma. We assume that the characters reactions are reasonable and focus on how badly or well they were served by their authors. Join us for our minor character spotlights, main character discussions, and favorite non traumatic.

01:55:18
Case
Things in the dark books we love.

01:55:19
Austin
Find us on Spotify, itunes, Google Play or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:55:25
Case
CPOV certainpov.com.