Episode 142 - The Incredibles with Doug Lief

Case and Jmike are joined by Doug Lief (from the Nostalgium Arcanum podcast) to talk about a family that's pretty super, The Incredibles!

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Overview

In Podcast episode 142 of Men of Steel, hosts Case Aiken and Jmike Folson, alongside guest Doug Lief, delve into a comprehensive analysis of Disney's The Incredibles through the lens of Superman fandom. They explore the film's connections to other superhero media, notably its references to 60s Batman and Fleischer Superman, while debating the film's overall tone, which Case describes as having an 'angry' directorial voice. The discussion emphasizes Mr. Incredible as a Superman analog, revealing how his secret identity as Bob Parr reflects an average man grappling with superhero responsibilities amid family dynamics. The team draws parallels between the family members' powers and their roles, likening the villain Syndrome to a failed fan archetype obsessed with eliminating exceptionalism. Additionally, they analyze the film's aging animation, contextualize its place in the superhero genre before the rise of the MCU, and celebrate its blend of action and relatable family themes. The episode culminates in discussing the film's unresolved questions about the necessity of superheroes in society, concluding that it adeptly balances the extraordinary with the everyday.

Notes

‍️ Introduction and Context (01:12 - 15:47)

• Case Aiken and Jmike Folson host the Men of Steel podcast with guest Doug Lief

• The discussion focuses on Disney's The Incredibles (2004) from a Superman fan perspective

• Doug mentions the movie's connections to Watchmen and other superhero media

• The hosts establish that the film is a love letter to superheroes with influences from 60s Batman, James Bond, and Fleischer Superman

• Case acknowledges he likes but doesn't love the movie, finding it has an 'angry' directorial voice

‍️ Mr. Incredible as Superman Analog (15:47 - 24:52)

• The group analyzes Mr. Incredible (Bob Parr) as a Superman analog

• Bob Parr's name means 'average' - perfect for a secret identity

• His job at an insurance company creates dramatic irony (helping after harm vs. preventing it)

• The hosts discuss Mr. Incredible's durability, strength, and physical capabilities

• The film explores the tension between superhero responsibility and family obligations

• The 'Bob Parr' identity has real value to him beyond just being a disguise

‍‍‍ Family Dynamics and Powers (24:52 - 39:20)

• The Incredibles compared to Fantastic Four but with a nuclear family structure

• Each family member's powers serve as metaphors for their roles:

• Elastigirl must 'bend over backwards' for her family

• Violet wants to be invisible/blend in as a teenager

• Dash wants to show off and stand out with his speed

• Holly Hunter praised for her performance as Elastigirl

• The married couple dynamic shows mature flirtation and partnership

• Sarah Vowell's performance as Violet highlighted despite not being a professional actress

Syndrome as Villain (39:20 - 54:00)

• Syndrome analyzed as Jimmy Olsen gone evil or fan-turned-Lex Luthor

• His character represents fandom and mediocrity wanting to eliminate specialness

• Syndrome observes and counters heroes' weaknesses but fails to examine his own

• His fatal flaw is wearing a cape, which Edna Mode had warned against

• The group discusses connections to Alan Moore's works (Watchmen and Captain Britain)

• Syndrome's robot compared to the squid from Watchmen's ending

• Brad Bird reportedly denies Watchmen influence despite many parallels

Jack-Jack and Supporting Characters (54:00 - 01:03:00)

• Jack-Jack has godlike powers (17 documented in the sequel)

• Compared to Franklin Richards from Fantastic Four

• Jack-Jack helps defeat Syndrome at the end of the film

• Edna Mode (voiced by Brad Bird) praised as an excellent character

• Her role as the Q-like gadget designer who incorporates fashion

• The group discusses superhero costume design elements

• Frozone and his 'Where's my super suit?' scene mentioned

Animation and Film Context (01:03:00 - 01:16:40)

• The film's animation shows its age (from 2004) but holds up well due to stylization

• Technical limitations discussed (water effects, foliage, crowds)

• The hosts note the film predates the MCU (2008) and Nolan's Batman (2005)

• The Incredibles came at a transition point for superhero cinema

• The movie successfully balances superhero action with relatable family dynamics

• Character designs discussed (Mr. Incredible's face based on a Roman helmet)

Final Battle and Themes (01:16:40 - 01:26:47)

• The Omnidroid battle showcases the family working together effectively

• Team power moves highlight each character's abilities and their coordination

• The question of 'do we need superheroes?' explored through the final battle

• Dash's athletic participation at the end (coming in second) compared to Superman hiding his abilities

• The film doesn't fully resolve questions about exceptional people's place in society

• The ending shows balance between superhero and ordinary life is beneficial

Conclusions and Wrap-Up (01:26:47 - 01:38:04)

• The Underminer appearance sets up the sequel and references Mole Man from Fantastic Four

• The hosts appreciate the film's commentary on superhero tropes ('you caught me monologuing')

• The movie works well as both a superhero film and a family story

• Discussion about how the film has aged and its historical context in superhero cinema

• Podcast information and social media contacts shared

• Recommendation for Books that Burn podcast from the Certain POV network

Transcription

00:00
Case
Which they set up very well. Because the whole cover story for the robot was that, oh, it was. It got to be smart enough to think on its own. And, like, that's the COVID story for why Mr. Incredible goes in to fight the robot in the first place. That becomes the actual plot at the end of the movie.

00:12
Doug
Well, that also, what you're seeing is, like, Syndrome's thing is, right? He. He's very observant of superhero strengths and weaknesses, and he calibrates what he's doing to try and counter those things. But what he doesn't do is ever examine his own strengths and weaknesses.

00:26
Case
Right.

00:27
Doug
That's what leads to it. Right. He's not thinking twice in the movie. He is foiled by the fact that he has a cape, which Edna Mode points out is like, she obviously figured that out. I never designed superhero capes anymore because of what happened. Right. She stopped doing it. Right. That seems like something. Every superhero knows not to wear a cape anymore. That's just stupid.

01:12
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Jmike Folson.

01:19
Jmike
Hey, guys. Welcome back to the show.

01:22
Case
Welcome back. Welcome back indeed. Because today we are talking about a movie that is all about the welcoming back of some pretty incredible people, I think. That's right. We are talking about Disney's the Incredibles from 2004. And to have that conversation, we are joined by Doug Lief.

01:40
Doug
Hello, Doug.

01:42
Case
It is so good to get you on Men of Steel. I've been over on your show, Nostalgia Arcanum, and it's. And you've been on another pass, but this is finally getting you on Men of Steel. It's great.

01:51
Doug
Actually, this is the second time on Men of Steel, if you remember.

01:55
Case
Second time.

01:56
Doug
That's right. Because you had me on to talk about Watchmen, which.

01:58
Case
Oh, that's right. We had Watchmen. Yes.

02:00
Doug
Interesting point of comparison, because this movie owes such a huge debt to Watchmen, and I think we'll need to talk about that as much as we talk about its connection to Superman.

02:09
Case
That's true.

02:10
Doug
Yeah.

02:10
Case
But we should discuss all of those things on this one. That's right. I am sorry. I forgot about the Watchmen episode. How could I forget the Watchmen episode? It's just we've been interacting a lot in just general, and it's been great getting to know you in the sort of, like, podcast family that has been forming on the Internet. Yeah.

02:26
Doug
We hide in our cars and listen to our podcast, Scanners.

02:30
Case
Waiting for the call, I was gonna say. But speaking of family, this is. This is the movie about a family of superheroes. I mean, like, we should just throw this out there. There's going to be spoilers in this conversation. There's no point. Yeah, we're gonna assume you've seen the movie is, I guess, the bigger point. It's not to say this is a spoiler situation, but we're going to assume for the purpose of this conversation because, you know, this is not a complete dissection of the movie that what the. This is a hope is to look at this movie from the lens of a Superman fan. So we could start by discussing Mr. Incredible himself or where did. Do you have anything that you want like, that you're, like, dying to get off your chest about the movie? Like, off the gate, you know, I.

03:15
Doug
Think this movie is just a love letter to superheroes in general. And we'll obviously talk about its connection to Superman. As I mentioned, I think there's a huge connection to Watchmen in particular. But this owes such. This is such a. Like, a fan film for everything. Superheroes. The aesthetics of it owe so much to, like, 60s Batman. The music in particular, is based on John Barry's James Bond music. And James Bond, you could argue, is also a superhero. There's nods to, I think, in the visuals to some of the Superman Fleischer stuff. Like, there's. Everything about this is like. Is referential but also deferential to other superheroes. Right. The family is basically the Fantastic Four in terms of their power set. All of this stuff kind of comes together, and it should feel like it's just a regurgitation of stuff that came before.

04:07
Doug
But it's not. It's not just, hey, look at that thing. It still feels like its own unique spin on the genre. So I think there's a. If you're a fan of any Superman or any superhero franchise, there's something in here for you to love.

04:21
Case
Yeah, there is a lot to love in this movie. I should probably also come out. I should probably open this conversation that while I like this movie a lot, I don't love it as much as most people do.

04:34
Jmike
Oh, man, we're gonna lose so many subscribers.

04:36
Case
I know I've criticized Brad Bird on the Internet before, and it's sort of an insane thing, but this movie I like a lot. And I think you're completely right that it has, like, all these elements in it that are really cool and really meant to draw people in and be a thing for people to really appreciate about this movie. I think that, like I said, there's so much that's fantastic. There is an element of this movie. I guess I'll just open up with this part. I've always found this movie kind of angry, like from a directorial voice, that there's this element of the movie, the whole being super versus mediocrity element in this movie that is really emphasized in this whole thing, particularly in the way that Mr. Incredible feels throughout his existence.

05:21
Case
And Dash and everything where they are Superman being forced into the role of Clark Kent and really grinding under that sort of trap that's occurring, which is interesting to think about if you think, you know, make a comparison with whatever happened to the man of Tomorrow where he is in that role, like, spoiler for that comic. But he is perpetually in the civilian identity at the end of that story and is fine with it. And it's seen as sort of like his happy ending. But here it's not a happy ending for this character and for his family as. As a whole, especially his son Dash. So we've got that element going on there. And then you got this sort of element with. With Syndrome, who could be read as sort of like, well, what if Jimmy Olsen went evil? Who wants to remove the.

06:13
Case
The super from the world? Like, he wants to make everything mundane. He has the line where, like, when everyone's super, no one will be. Like, there's that element to the character which, while he is the villain of the piece, there is, I think, a lot of this text. I mean, I would say that he specifically is supposed to be the villain of the piece that he like in that what he is saying is the bad idea. Like, the movie is all about, like, grinding under pressure to be mediocre when you could be incredible if you were allowed to be, if you really, like, took it by the reins. And I find that, like, interesting. But it also like, just comes off as like such a. Like such a message movie from Brad Bird that it.

06:57
Case
It does get in the way of my enjoyment to a degree. Just because, like, it feels angry and it doesn't feel quite as optimistic about it all as it should be.

07:06
Doug
There's. Yeah, there's a sort of like an Rand undercurrent in there that's been talked about. I think what. What the way I look at it is. I think there are themes to that. They're just a little muddled or under baked. So I think this notion of like, don't hide your light under a bushel is a good idea. Right? This Comes from a, you know, like, look, if you're a nerd who gets beat up by jocks every day, you don't want to raise your hand in class. And even though you know the right answer, like, that is a very human concept of, like, you don't want to stand out because the people that stand out get persecuted. And so I think the movie deals that. Right. They deal with that through Dash, where he wants to go out for sports.

07:45
Doug
And it's the same thing of, like, man, Spider man could win all the gold medals at the Olympics if he wanted to, you know. And so they can't let Dash go out for sports through most of the movie because the fear is he will reveal their identity, which they're not supposed to reveal. So at the end of the movie when he is allowed to go out for track, they're basically letting go do good, just don't do superhumanly good. Right? They're still struggling with it.

08:10
Case
Yeah. I'm not trying to say that this is. And this is honestly why I think that there's more of a perspective from the director leaking through kind of thing in this movie. I don't think it's necessarily like a treatise. It's not an Ayn Rand level of being like, here is my ethos about everything to the world. But it does feel like Brad Bird, who, as a director has faced a lot of friction with the corporate powers that be, especially with the Iron Giant. You can feel that this is sort of dealing with the world, pushing him to be one way when he is, like, I could be fantastic this other way that if I'm just allowed to be. If I'm just allowed to be an auteur is just my. My sort of stance on this one. And, like, it's fine. It's there.

09:00
Case
The movie is still good. Like, it's just. It's a. It's a thing that I can kind of like, feel in the background that, like, just bugs me. And I. I just needed to say it up front just so that it's not, like, a thing. I don't want to bury the lead on that one. It's just in there.

09:13
Doug
Yeah. No, that notion if everyone's super no one will be right Syndrome's syndrome, to the extent that it is. It's this inferiority complex that, like, if I can essentially give everyone superpowers by turning them into Iron man or really probably more himself, you know, just by inventing their way into superpowers with technology, that sort of levels the playing field between them and these Naturally, superhero people. I don't think the movie has answer to the question. Maybe there isn't an easy answer, but it does like to dabble in that question. Fortunately, I think the movie is not bogged down by that. I think there's too much fun and derring do to be had in it.

09:54
Case
Yeah.

09:55
Doug
Oh yeah. It's not the primary, it's the driver for some of this stuff. But in a way it almost gets backgrounded. That's why I said it's a little muddled or confused. I think if Brad Bird took a stronger stance on how do we solve this problem or what do I really feel about it could have given the movie a slightly stronger spine. But maybe at the expense of some of the fun and more lighter parts of the movie.

10:19
Case
Yeah, I think that the superhero nature of this movie sort of gets in the way of making it too strong of a point. Like, superpowers are great to use as metaphor. I mean, we've got the whole X Men stuff using superpowers as a way to discuss social issues without it necessarily being, you know, a social issue kind of thing. You know, it's a little bit more palatable for a younger audience. Audience especially. Like, it also prevents it sometimes from having like real world situations here. Like the superpowered beings do appear to be the, like in the service of the government to a certain degree. Like they have actual superpowers. So Dash, even when he's allowed to compete, has to keep it under reins. Like he can't.

10:59
Case
It's not just that like he wasn't allowed to compete and he, you know, when he finally is, he's. He proves himself to be great. Like he always was going to better than anyone at that. So I think it does keep it from being like too heavy handed just by virtue of the fact that we've got the superpower thing going on here. And that keeps it also lighthearted and fun and we get, you know, really cool stuff going on with these characters. Yeah, because like, I think this movie, and I think it's funny that this is similar in a way to Darkwing Duck. I think that this movie has a lot of that. You mentioned James Bond. I think that James Bond DNA is sort of what comes first in this. And then the superpowered stuff gets added to it all.

11:39
Case
Because, like, you could see how this movie would just be like Spy Kids. Like if you just take the superpowered stuff away, it could still work as a movie versus if you take the government agent secret identity. Like if you Take that kind of a vibe for the character away and like, you made a more just like straight up Superman, the plot wouldn't work as well. So I think that James Bond ness is in there and like, you know, in a world where it's just like, oh, but we're just better spies or like, we're, you know, like the cream of the crop. People, like, it would feel a bit more heavy handed, but because of superpowers, it makes it more of a fantasy.

12:14
Doug
Yeah, I mean, you've got the government, as you said, they have to be involved so the plot can work. Part of that is just literally like, well, how do these superheroes ever afford anything they're doing? And it's because the movie doesn't come right out and say it. But yes, they are government sanctioned superheroes that like, when they have to go into hiding, it's the government who pays for their witness protection and coordinates that, you know, there's this guy that they deal with who's kind of their liaison to the government. You know, they work with him. So it adds in this interesting layer of like, well, they're not totally like vigilante freelancers.

12:49
Doug
They kind of adds this nice little like a sub question there again, cribbing from Watchmen about like, well, who's actually in charge of these superheroes and who decides who gets to be one and what they get to do? And you know, the questions that also are still kind of lingering in the second Incredibles movie too, which I know we're not focusing on today, but they do continue that line of inquiry.

13:11
Case
Yeah, I think when we talk about the second one, like, it'll be interesting to really compare the arc of them. But this movie stood on its own for 14 years, so I think we, it's worth it to look at it as a singular piece today. So why don't we just talk for a bit about Mr. Incredible as a Superman analog? Because I think it's worth it. I haven't actually done a video on him, but it's actually always been one I've wanted to do. For a while it was because I was waiting for Incredibles 2 to come out and then I just got busy with life. And I haven't written those threads as much, but I've been making the videos, someday that'll happen. But yeah, so Mr.

13:46
Case
Incredible, I, I was watching particularly with that, with like that eye for the character, and I, I think it works really well. Obviously, he's way less powerful than a Superman. Type like, he. He bleeds at one point. He. He does appear to be durable, but it's hard to really tell because it's a cartoon, you know. So, like, what. What would a person survive of, like, that electroshock thing versus, like, what can Mr. Incredible survive? But he does seem to be more durable than a person. He gets thrown around a lot. Like, he. He takes a lot of hits that should kill a person. And yeah, again, it's a Pixar cartoon, but, like, no one else takes those hits. Or, you know, Elastigirl does, but she's also, like, clearly super durable, and they have suits that make them even more durable.

14:27
Case
So, like, once he's got the. The upgraded suit, he's definitely tough enough to be in this sort of category. He does. Obviously, he's got the James Bond kind of stuff. He's got that, like, that cool car that, like, is also kind of Batman y. There's a lot of, like, just generic superhero mishmash going on here. But generic superhero mishmash is Superman. Right. Like, most of the tropes of super. Of superheroes start with Superman. And then, like, other ones are. Could be added in there, but, like, it's still all Superman and, like, that big super strong guy who can, like, you know, save kittens and also, you know, fight all the bad guys. And is. Is very mobile and gets around town and can't be defeated by. By any sort of physical threat. Like, that's Superman here. Like.

15:11
Case
And what did you guys think about that?

15:13
Doug
Yeah, I mean, the assignment was to kind of look at this through a Superman lens. And I was watching it and, like, one of the very first things he does in the movie is stop a runaway train, which Christopher Reeve does in the first Superman movie. You know, they're obviously wanting you to draw the comparison. And the way he stops it is also a little bit Tobey maguire. Spider Man 2.

15:31
Jmike
True.

15:32
Doug
There's a little of that. Yeah. Like, as you said, Case, he's super strong. He's super durable. His Clark Kent identity, I love that he is one. His name is Bob Parr. Like, par. Literally the word for average.

15:46
Case
Right?

15:46
Doug
Right. You know, perfect secret identity, name for the family. Also that, like, he works at an insurance company. His job is ostensibly to help people after they've been injured, not before. Right. By saving them. And so I think making him an insurance claims guy is, again, a very canny addition to the story. And you look at him like, when in that first act of the movie, that scene where he's in the Boss's office, and he's getting a talking to, and he looks out the window, and he sees a guy getting mugged. Right?

16:19
Jmike
Yeah.

16:20
Doug
Like, there's so much of that, like, tension of, like, I need to go. I need to go change into my costume. I need to go save that guy. And when he can't do it, he throws his poor Wallace Shawn, like, through a bunch of walls in anger. Like, they're definitely using all of this Superman stuff to great benefit. He's at the island lair. All of the things he's doing draw on kind of this Superman archetype and cast it against him as not a loner. Right. Superman. He doesn't. I mean, I know they do this stuff in the comics, but basically, Clark Kent, Superman is a loner. He can't really be with Lois Lane fully because he's got to maintain his secret identity. He doesn't have kids.

17:04
Doug
Again, I know that over 80 years of comics, they do get into some of this stuff, but, like, core, like, stripped down, like, basic Superman is an alien, and he's on his own. And here you're like, well, now he's got a family to take care of other supers, and he's got a job to maintain to help, not just for his own, like, secret identity, because he. He actually needs that income. He needs to have a job to help his family. Like, it's not just a disguise. Like, the Bob Parr identity has value to him. And so I love how they kind of play with that, even as he's still like, man, I just got to get. You know, get back out there and start busting some heads.

17:42
Doug
Like, it's a really great version of, like, what if we push the Clark Kent identity further to the point where, again, it's now anchor weighing Superman down as opposed to just, like, something he does during the day to avoid people noticing him.

18:00
Jmike
Imagine, like, Superman and Lois. But Clark was the one at home, and he was badly out of shape. Lois is the one running the errands and stuff, and Clark is just like, I hate my life. I have to do something, but I can't.

18:13
Doug
Yeah, well, and that is, again, that is, in a way, the premise of the second one, where, again, Elastigirl is the one who goes out saving the world, and he's stuck at home. Think care of the kids.

18:23
Jmike
I have to go save people, but I can't, because it's not. I have to be at home with the kids. I hate it here.

18:30
Case
Well, I will say I think that the. The opening act of the movie where he's stuck in this situation, you know, where he's. He's stuck working this terrible job and. And. And so forth, before he makes the decision to go and engage with this, like, this robot mission that. That is offered to him. Like, I think that is a great short film about just, like, the, like, how crushing, like, corporate bureaucracy can be on a human soul. Like that.

18:55
Jmike
And, like, them having, like, these fantastical lives and them having to, like, tone everything down and just be your average Joe, where they know they're supposed to be doing so much more.

19:05
Case
Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, like, the level of them being a superhero in disguise and just, like, hating their job is a fantastic thing to throw out there. Like, that's, like a really cool. Like, it's the kind of thing that you would see in, like, an Astro City type thing where it's like a real, you know, exploration of, like, well, what does it mean to be a superhero in the real world kind of thing? Also getting back to, like, the Watchmen kind of comparison, where it's like, okay, well, how do they make money as a superhero in this, you know, in the real world? Like, oh, well, then, you know, I. Either they're lucky or they. They figured out something, but, like, it's. It's a system. And in this case, it's. It's his job, and his job sucks.

19:43
Doug
Well, they also deal with, like. So, for example, Superman's primary weakness is that he can't be everywhere at once, right? That's how they deal with them being so overpower, which is like, well, you can save this person or you can save that person, but you can't do both, right? They'll put him in that quandary for dramatic effect. And here that's what's literally happening, you know, which is like, he has that moment at work where he wants to save that person being mugged and he can't. And he goes home and he has an argument with his wife, who is also a superhero, but she's also like, hey, you have to take care of our family, too. Maybe you shouldn't have intervened here, because keeping our family protected is also something you need to do.

20:26
Doug
So saving us versus saving this one person being mugged, There's a lot of that of like. Or even the guy who tries to commit suicide and instigates the lawsuits. He's like, he didn't want to be saved. You know, there's a lot of that kind of idea of like, well, we have institutions that are we have police, like, we have organizations that their bespoke job is to help people in need. You don't need to necessarily jump in to every situation. Maybe that's a negative sometimes and not a positive. And so, like, Mr. Incredible is in that quandary, too, throughout the movie.

20:57
Case
Yeah. And that is a question that this movie deals with. Again, getting back to this whole sort of. I don't know if it has a final answer for it, because he does need to intervene on certain types of things. Like, the big robot ultimately is a threat that everyone needs to intervene on, because it's a huge threat. And so it is good that they all come together. And it's still asking the question of, like, well, what is the. The dynamic between your responsibilities to the world versus to your family up until the moment of the end of the fight? Like, or. Or rather at the end, when the fight truly begins at. At the very end of the movie. Because they. They land in the, like, the. The super rv. The. The incredible rv. They. They land in that and the perfect family vehicle.

21:41
Case
Right, Exactly. And he's like, I'm going to go alone. And then Elastigirl is like, I'm coming with you. We're going to leave the kids. But they're both trying to leave the kids, and they're both trying to keep the family out of it. They're both trying to protect the family as they see it. And for Elastigirl, that's protecting both Mr. Incredible and the kids at the same time. And by way of having the kids stay back and the two of them going forth. But both are trying to do this whole dynamic. And then the robot destroys the RV and the fight has to happen with all four of them involved, which, prior to that point, they were trying to withhold so their back ends up against the wall.

22:17
Case
And so the movie doesn't come down on an actual answer of what is specifically more important, protecting your family versus, like, contributing to the world in a meaningful way. And that's fine. Like, the movie doesn't have to have answer, but that is the. One of the questions that this movie is raising.

22:32
Doug
Well, also with. Yeah, also with regards to protect. Protecting the kids. You might be able to protect them in this one instance by keeping them out of the fray, but they're also saying, but they're superheroes.

22:41
Case
They.

22:42
Doug
They need to be trained. Someday they're going to be the adults. Right. So sometimes protecting your kids means putting them in situations where they're going to have to push themselves a little Bit they're going to have to. To confront something that they are maybe almost ready for, but not quite, in order to learn how to overcome that. So the movie is also saying, like, well, no, Dash and Violet, you know, they have superpowers. They can help here. And maybe the right answer is to let them, you know, get in there and you trust that they're competent enough at this point to handle it.

23:12
Doug
You know, so that's something that Elastigirl's dealing with the whole time, too, is like, how much do I let the kids, you know, show off or learn and develop by confronting these things versus how much do I want to keep them sidelined?

23:23
Case
Yeah, it's that whole, like, do you keep them safe, but do you prevent them from ever thickening their skin? You know, like, do you keep a bird from learning to fly, even if it might have broken its leg a couple of times in the process? Yeah, it's a tough question that they put forth to Mr. Incredible and to Alaska Girl as well.

23:41
Jmike
Yeah.

23:42
Case
But it. You know, these are all interesting burdens to put on a Superman type. Like, these are not things that Superman would just get around. Like, he would be slightly better than Mr. Incredible just because he's slightly faster. And, like, Mr. Incredible is more of a. Well, yeah, I was about to say Mr. More incredible is more of a flawed individual. Like, I think he, like, he ultimately is the Superman archetype, but he is like a very, you know, arrogant, bombastic version of that, cartoonishly so, for the purpose of having this sort of, like, family dynamic. But he is very competent as a superhero. He never, like, he never actually screws up terribly as a superhero. Like, he's very good at doing all the things that he needs to do, including, like, the James Bond style stealth stuff.

24:23
Case
Getting back to that being sort of like, in the. In the blood of the series. But, like, he, like, he wins his fights. Like, even the fight against the upgraded robot, like, he's able to get away successfully. Like, and, like, there is a reason that Syndrome is, you know, his biggest fan and is, like, still gushing about him even when he gets captured and is. Is, like, even when it gets captured both times. Like, Syndrome is, like, very excited about how cool of a superhero Mr. Incredible is. And, like, some of that is being told to us rather than shown. But, like, I think it actually is being shown. It's just he's playing the archetype of the. The. The goofy dad also. And some of that is through his, like, character flaws.

25:02
Case
And so he, like, you know, he just comes off more of like a little bit meatheaded than Superman would.

25:08
Doug
He's a sitcom dad for sure. Yeah, right. He's got a little like John Goodman and Roseanne energy.

25:14
Case
I mean, God damn it. It's Craig T. Nelson. It's goddamn coach.

25:17
Doug
Right? Perfect voice cast for this. But I know they probably wanted to go with someone more famous than Craig T. Nelson or whatever. There's probably a lot of good candidates. But like, he's so good. He's so like that kind of bigger, like baritone part of his voice. Like he can access some like real good. Like when he's. When he thinks his family is dead. At one point in this movie, like, he goes to some cool emotional places. Like when he gets really angry as opposed to like grumpy dad angry. Like he. Craig T. Nelson does a phenomenal job in the role.

25:50
Case
Yeah. He also does a phenomenal job as like the excited dad, especially for Dash, which I. Oh, you must have been booking.

25:58
Doug
How fast were you going?

25:59
Case
Right? Yeah, exactly. Or it's like, if you were worried about them, why'd you bring them? It's like they stowed away. And that is the wrong tone, mister.

26:07
Jmike
You're trying to make it have an argument. I'm just happy you're alive.

26:11
Case
Like, his goofy dad in a good way is great. And that is a nice part of having him still be a competent superhero. I think that there is some media training that sort of implies makes him come off more of a bumbling goofy dad to us because that's just how these things are written. But he actually is pretty effective. He just disassociates because he's so miserable in the first act of the movie.

26:36
Jmike
You're saying he's. He's more Clark Kent than Superman in this part.

26:39
Doug
I mean, the Clark Kent is not totally a put on. Right. Like he is a Nor at some point he was a normal Earth person. He's not an alien pretending to be a mild mannered reporter. Right. So he understands.

26:51
Case
But. But yeah. I mean, there's no implication that he's got.

26:55
Doug
They're the X Men. Yeah. In this world, they're the X Men. They don't explicitly come out and say this, but it seems like everybody who's a superhero, they develop powers at some point in their life. Cause that's what they're showing through Jack. Jack as well. That they just awaken with powers at some point.

27:11
Jmike
So what you're saying is we've had the X Men all along and we didn't even know since 2000. Oh, my gosh.

27:18
Doug
They're among us. Disney had them before they had them.

27:21
Jmike
Disney had him before they got him.

27:24
Case
Let's move on to the rest of the family now. So there's obviously the Fantastic Four comparison. And I think that is obvious and extremely apt. It's also not that unique. Like, the family of superheroes is sure, like, the most iconic one is the Fantastic Four, but there's plenty of entries into that pantheon in comics and in other media. I mean, like, Christ, Super Sentai alone has, like, seven teams that are, like, all siblings. Because that's just how, like, how media churns out some of these ideas.

27:55
Doug
Like, there's lots under twin powers activate. Exactly.

27:58
Case
There's lots of, like, family team superhero concepts. And it seems so obvious when you. When you think about it, to do, like, dad, you know, the parents and then the little kids and, like, have this, like, keeping up with the Joneses kind of vibe, but now they're actually super kind of thing. Like, those kind of juxtapositions are all in play here. And so that makes a lot of sense. And I think it works like that comparison works fine. The Fantastic Four and classic Superman are actually much more of. Of Akin, especially the Silver Age Superman and this Silver Age Fantastic Four where it's like, here's big, explosive science that we're going to go explore and. And do weird stuff. You know, it's just very fantastical. And I've always thought that Superman would fit in very well with the Fantastic Four.

28:42
Case
So that comparison is fine. But obviously their powers are then, like, all kinds of jumbled on this one. Let's talk about Elastigirl, who I think, yes, Obviously there's the Mr. Fantastic comparison because of those powers. But stretchy powers are a time honored, like, arguably the second most famous type of superpower after just like, your basic Superman. Like, I've got some kind of physical augmentation set of powers, and I would lump super speed into that category of, like, augmented human level powers. Stretchiness kind of comes next in terms of, like, a thing you can just imagine. And then we get into, like, energy powers and stuff like that. But, like, it goes back to plaque and, like, has deep roots in the Superman pantheon by way of Jimmy Olsen with his Elongated Lad stuff. Or not Elongated Lad, pardon me, Elastic Lad stuff and that.

29:32
Case
I think you could. You could play in a world where Mr. Incredible had his version of, like, Lana Lang and she got the superpowers at some point and that and became. But it was a permanent thing and she just became a superhero. Like, we don't know the backstories for these characters. So it is entirely possible to, like, create a. Create a headcanon where this fits much more into a classic Superman archetype. You know, like, imagine again, I'm going to reference whatever happened to the man of Tomorrow when Lana and Jimmy, like, get their superpowers to, like, go and, like, defend Superman. Like, you could totally see a world where it's like, okay, well, she got the stretchy powers instead of the superpowers or, you know, the Superman type powers and, you know, swapped it and she's in that position now.

30:12
Case
Anyway, I just wanted to bring that up. And I think it's interesting that if. If you are looking at this as a Superman fan and not just being like, oh, it's the Fantastic Four, but jumbled. You could actually make this sort of fit a Superman headcanon.

30:23
Doug
Yeah, I mean, Elastigirl, you're right that the. The Fantastic Four powers have been jumbled a little bit. I think that's mostly just there. It's a nod that they all have the same power set, just with different people. But the thing with the Fantastic Four as a family is none of them are the offspring of the other ones. Right here we're dealing with, like, a nuclear family.

30:42
Case
Right.

30:43
Doug
And that. I'm not aware of any other superhero where they've really done something quite like this, where it's literally parents and 2.3 kids. And what I love about it here is by making Elasa girl who she is, she's the mom. And in this family dynamic, she's the one who literally has to bend over backwards, be flexible for her other family members. She's the one who's constantly trying to keep it together between her other three family members that all want to go, well, at least Dash and. And Bob, they want to go off and show how super they are. Violet is the one who's willing to. She wants to be normal, but there's this tension between all of them that mom here is forced to bend and stretch to try and accommodate everybody. And in classic superhero fashion, the fantastical is. The metaphorical becomes literal.

31:35
Doug
And I love that she's still, though, as a Superman analog, she can throw a punch. She is no slouch. And again, in the second one, it's her who has to be more the. The one going out there doing more of the superhero stuff because she's very capable on her own. They show that in the prologue here, right? She's, you know, she's more than capable of handling things on her own.

31:57
Case
I mean, she seems to be like, they established pretty clearly at every point that she's an incredibly competent superhero. Like, the whole thing with her having like a pilot buddy from back in the day.

32:06
Jmike
Yeah.

32:06
Case
Like, and they show a, A, a framed picture of her in like, pirate gear or pirate pilot gear. Pardon me, Yar, here be elastic girl. But anyway, so, you know, we established that she has like, all these, like, skills. She mentions that she can fly jets. She just can't fly a rocket. And, and you know, they just like, establish her as being like this woman of action and also very flexible and apparently quite durable. Like, there's quite a few things, like hits to her that are pretty heavy ones. And you buy it because she's flexible. She. She can take the punch. Like, she rolls with it, she stretches to accommodate it. It all makes a lot of sense. Doug, you are dead on in terms of, like, the powers being a meta. Like, each one having the metaphorical role in the family.

32:53
Case
Like, Violet is trying to blend in, so she has invisibility powers. Dash, like the kid with the hyperactive kid running around. Like, like these powers are all very one to one in terms of their dynamic. The metaphor becoming literal. And it is a good point that, you know, Elastigirl is the one who has to bending over backwards. I, I think that's an excellent spot to. Or an excellent point to bring up.

33:15
Doug
Yeah, I mean, she is shown to be, as you said, very competent in a way. There's a, there's an implication that she's even more clever and better at this than her husband, who's a little more of the blunt instrument. You know, they play with that a little bit that maybe she's just a little bit craftier than the Mr. Incredible is. What I love is, you know, when they do all come together, especially in that fight in the jungle, like that hero shot of like, the four of them, you know, standing there, you know, ready at action. Like, when they do come together as a family, it's like, you see they are stronger together than they are apart. And they're very good apart, you know, so it's a great. She is really the one who kind of ties things together. Also just.

33:58
Doug
Holly Hunter is a great actress. And my favorite impression that my daughter does is when she saw this movie when she was 4 and she started doing it. I'm like, that's actually pretty good. Wow. She's got the. Shh. That esch sound pretty good.

34:16
Case
I do also want to bring up as a couple, I do very much appreciate. This is the classic Pixar, we've got jokes for the parents kind of movie. And there's. There's quite a bit of innuendo between the two. That.

34:26
Doug
Not innuendo. Heat, like actual heat.

34:29
Case
Yeah, yeah.

34:30
Doug
She pitches his ass from across the room. That's pretty good.

34:32
Case
Yeah, it's fantastic. And it didn't mean as much to me when I was like, you know, a teenager when this movie came out. But as like an adult who is married, like, it's like, oh, yeah, you do have like that kind of a dynamic. And that is different than like flirtiness. You know, it's like, it's. There's a different kind of flirty. You're allowed to be a different kind of flirty when you're like married. And so they've got that kind of a dynamic. It's very true. Which I really appreciate.

34:59
Doug
Oh, yeah. When he starts working out and getting back in shape, she's like, oh, she takes notice. You know, she's definitely, you know, she cares deeply for him and like when, for that moment where she thinks maybe he's had a dalliance with Mirage, like, she gets good and angry about that. But yeah, that character, I don't know really what her role. I feel like that character is also a little underdeveloped because I keep thinking, is she gonna have superpowers? She never exhibits any, but I don't know.

35:28
Case
Oh, Mirage. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. She's got the card that has like the weird mirage effect going on it. But it is hard to say if she has any actual super ness to her. She's a very classic kind of, again, femme fatale. Getting back to the James Bond kind of dynamic for the piece, which wouldn't require her to. But, you know, it would make sense for.

35:50
Doug
Yeah, it makes sense for her to not. I imagine Syndrome would not want any actual people with superpowers around. He's doing his best to eliminate them. Right.

35:58
Case
So it's a good question though. And she certainly has like the vibe of one. Or maybe it's a tech based thing because of Syndrome specifically, like whatever she's got going for her because she's, you know, she's his lieutenant, so it does, it would make sense for her to have like some kind of gadgets. But yeah, she's never really established as having it. She's mostly just the assistant to Be the liaison for Syndrome so that we don't see him until later in the movie.

36:24
Doug
Getting coming back to the family. I guess going to the next one would be Violet. Like, I, I really like this character and I also am very impressed because Sarah Vowell, who plays her is, you know, not an actress, she's an author. Kind of just this quirky nerdy lady with this odd NPR voice and she turns in a great performance and they push her even farther in the second one of like, man, she must. I don't know if she took an acting class, but like, she's awesome in both movies. Like really getting this like angry teenage, you know, frustrated girl, like character just dead on. Perfect.

36:57
Case
Yeah. Did either of you see the show pin 15?

37:01
Doug
No.

37:02
Case
So it has a very similar kind of energy where it's just this like early teenager, awkward girl like vibe for the characters. Like, so pin 15 is a. Is a TV show about two comedians are playing themselves as 15 year old high school students in the 90s or I think it's like 2000 exactly. Pre 9 11. And so it's just like this very like red, like, for me, like retro nostalgia vibe because, like, oh my God, like it's all this NSYNC stuff. Like my sister was super into that. All the girls I knew were like. And my wife loves it because it like feels like super true to her. Anyway, that's just the vibe I was bringing over here, wherein it's also about the awkward teenage girl experience, which is being done incredibly well. You. You are.

37:47
Case
You hit the nail on the head that Sarah Val does a fantastic job conveying a character who is. Just doesn't want to be there, wants to blend in, you know, again, her superpower is that she can go invisible. She wants to be a wallflower. And then this, you know, and then by way of sort of accepting her powers, she learns to shield herself from it all and be able to like stand out in public and be visible. And I think it's a nice arc for the character. She's obviously less flashy than Dash, but you know, it's a good big sister role and a good arc for the character.

38:22
Doug
She's got those force fields right. Again, I don't want people getting inside. Right. That's what that is. Stay away. Metaphorically, that's there. You know, she wants to just try and, you know, deal with her crush on Toady Ridinger. Like that's her world. And you know, unfortunately superheroics come calling. But I love that she really, like, she also accepts her older sister role. Like, she rises to the occasion when they're on that island and she has to start going, okay, guess what, Dash? Here's what we're gonna do. You know, we're gonna take matters into our own hands a little bit, and by the second one, she's very much like, no, you can't leave me out. Right? We're all in this. We're superheroes. Don't make us. Don't put us back in the closet, basically.

39:07
Doug
I loved her arc throughout both films, but especially here, which, as you said, this is like, wallflower learning not to be a wallflower.

39:16
Case
Yeah, she's very good at taking on a role. Like, when she puts on the mask for the first time and has that sort of heroic standing, like, shot when her mom leaves for the first time, you can see that's giving her strength. Like, taking on the role allows her to focus her strength and, like, really feel who she is for the first time. And, like, that becomes her thing. Like, the confidence she builds along the way. Like, it is interesting. I know that they're not having a conversation in this movie, especially not in 2004, about, like, masking, but there is kind of that vibe for this character, which I find. I find fascinating as someone who is, like, neurodivergent. Like, I don't. I relate to the character in that regard, I guess, is what I was getting at.

39:58
Doug
I mean, she wants to blend in. Yeah, go ahead.

40:00
Jmike
See, her mom gives her. Like, when you're talking about that scene where they're staying outside the cave talking, her mom gave her the confidence, like, actually be who she. Her mom sees her as being. Because before that, we don't really see her practicing, like, with her powers or anything at all. She's always like, oh, I'm just going to pretend I don't exist. I'll be over in the corner. But after that, she's actually, like, practicing her shielding on the fire. She's practicing her shielding on the smoke, and she's actually trying to be active with it from that point forward. And that gives her the confidence to do more and more stuff later. Like when she jumps out the bushes and shields Dash from the bullets, she's being active from that point forward.

40:36
Case
Yeah. And it's interesting to note that prior to her getting her suit, her powers weren't that useful. Like, she wasn't that good with her force fields. And her invisibility she couldn't actually take advantage of because her clothes stayed visible. So it Is interesting that again, taking on the superheroic identity allows her to really exude all of who she can be. And it's again getting back to this whole theme about the characters who are innately exceptional being allowed to be exceptional.

41:04
Doug
Yeah, she definitely turns all that on. Once she has the super suit that allows her to be purely invisible without being naked, she uses it, as you said. She starts practicing her force fields and how to use them. The only time we really see her use the force fields much earlier in the movie is when she and her brother are having that argument at dinner and she like, just uses one to just have him like run face first into it. Like that feels very like real sibling behavior of like, I'm just going to use these powers to like, give you a hard time, little brother. You know, she bristles at the fact that like, Jack is seemingly normal. Right. That she resents that, you know, a little bit. Like, you know, he's normal, he's not even toilet trained.

41:47
Doug
You know, obviously we'll find out by the end of this movie he is a God. But like, I love that dynamic, right? That's like these powers are not really good for very much other than minor mischief at best and mostly within the house being turned loose into the real world to do, in theory what they were meant to do, which is protect each other and others.

42:10
Case
Yeah, yeah. And like, as you say, the minor mischief. Like we should talk about Dash now because talk about a character who, his powers are just being used for minor mischief. Now I have made the comparison between characters who have purely super speed as their thing and as being really good examples of the Superman analog that often get overlooked as that because Flash is like a very clear fork of the Superman analog. The speedster archetype specifically. But I think that is there like Dash. So I, I, we'll get into his actual character stuff. But I do want to like, throw out this like, pet theory I have. Dash and Mr. Incredible theoretically could have the exact same superpowers. Dash is very small and very light at this point and has not filled out. And Mr. Incredible is very big and very heavy.

42:57
Case
And it is entirely possible that those same sort of like super strong muscles are being used for speed because he happens to be like 7 versus like or 10 or whatever age he's supposed to be versus then like the, this oversized heavy frame may only be able to move at speeds that are slightly faster than a normal human, but is able to do these like, huge feats of strength. Like it's possible that these are actually the same superpowers?

43:22
Doug
Yeah, I'd buy that. I mean, he's a fourth grader, they tell us. So he's. He's small. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He. You mentioned, like, he's sort of like a hyperactive kid, like, that he's all over the place. I see that. I just sort of, like, look at him as a comparison to my own son, who is 5. And when he pretends he has superpowers, he often. He lets us know he has super fast speed. And he is a little blond kid who is, in fact, pretty speedy for his age. He's pretty good at running around. And so when I look at him, it's like, wow. My older daughter and my younger son, they have very much like a Violet and Dash kind of dynamic in some ways.

44:02
Doug
And there's just something about being a kid that I think it's the idea of, like, I want to be able to fly. I want to be able to run so fast I can fly. I want to be able to go anywhere when I want to. Because so much of being a kid is being corralled. You know, we're all getting in the car now. We're all going here. We have to be at this place by 10:00. Come on, let's go. Let's go.

44:23
Case
Brush your teeth at school. Like, be at your desk.

44:27
Doug
Yeah. And I mean, so much of being, like, when I see, like, my kids freak out, you know, it's often like, I have to remember, like, oh, right. They don't get a lot of control over things right now. So when they're losing this one thing that, like, I don't see why that's so important to them. It doesn't seem like a big deal. It's because it's something they have control over that I am now further encroaching on as their parent. And so, like, Dash here, he's like, he's acting out at school at this point, right? He's putting a tack on the teacher's chair because he knows he can get away with it. And it's obviously not the first time he's done something like that. This.

45:00
Doug
He's missing out on his chance to shine, which is what he deliberately, explicitly says that I want to go out for sports, I want to be special. Why can't we be special? And he's the first one that actually articulates that notion of, like, because his mom says we can't. Everyone's special to Ash. And he says that's another way of saying nobody is. He's the one who hits on that idea first in the movie. And it kind of goes into another Superman analog. Maybe we'll get to an episode on this someday, but Roald Dahl's Matilda, like, deals with that too. And like the musical even more so. The state of like, all kids are special, but actually one of them here is a super powered genius. Right? That's where Dash fits in.

45:42
Doug
Here he is this superpowered kid that like, out of all of even more so than his dad. I think his dad is like, I want to use superpowers because I know it's my responsibility to help others, and I have to watch this guy get mugged and I can't do anything about it. Dash is like, he doesn't care about helping others at this point. He's just, I just want to run fast because I'm a kid and I want to run fast. That's what I do.

46:02
Case
You know, like my toddler has very similar energy of just like wanting to run everywhere and climb up everything. And like, if she could run across water, she would. I do want to bring up that the trickster archetype is a part of the Superboy character. Like the classic Silver Age Superboy had a little bit of a tricksterness to him when he was first introduced. And so you could see that also at play here with like the son of Mr. Incredible is, you know, putting tax down on his teachers seats and everything. Again, like, some of this is a little bit of a reach to try to make it purely Superman look. But these characters, I mean, like, look, there's a poster of Mr. Incredible in his. In Mr. Incredible's office. That is him snapping the chains. And it's very much like that Superman one.

46:46
Case
Like back cover. Or is it Action Comics one? Either way, the Superman snapping the chains, like him flexing his chest so much that they all burst. That's. Here they are leaning into the character being Superman esque and the whole family being Superman esque. So saying that Dash is Superboy esque isn't that big of a stretch.

47:04
Doug
Agreed.

47:04
Case
Certainly, before we move on to other sort of things in this universe, I do want to circle back to Mr. Incredible with one point. I like his first costume more.

47:15
Doug
The blue one?

47:17
Case
Yeah, the blue one. I mean, I'm partial to like blue and black costumes. It looks a lot like the invincible, like black suit that he wears. Not, not the one that he wears his main costume, but his like alternate look that he wears for. For some of the run and what will be his costume in the next season of the show. It's very similar in that. Right down to the fact that it has a stylized eye in the, like, built into the body of the suit. So it's a. It's a good look. I like it a lot. I don't mind the red. The red suit. It just looks way more like Fantastic Four. Ish. Even though it's got the, you know, the underwear over it, which, like, keeps the Superman kind of effect going for it all.

47:51
Case
I just, like I said, I just, like, kind of prefer the first one is all.

47:55
Doug
Yeah, it's almost a little more of a classic Batman look than it is Superman. Right, with the gloves.

48:01
Case
Yeah, yeah. There's like, some nightwing going on with it.

48:03
Doug
Right?

48:03
Jmike
Yeah, I didn't realize that one.

48:06
Doug
Well, the car is also Batman, too.

48:09
Case
Yeah, yeah, the car is very Batman. Very Batman. James Bond, which, like I said, I think is a lot of what's going on here. And like I said, similar to. With Darkwing Duck, was supposed to be originally supposed to be Double O Duck. It was supposed to be a James Bond parody show that then they added the superhero element to differentiate it so that they weren't getting sued by mgm. They changed it to Darkwing Duck to get away from that whole situation.

48:32
Doug
That and also the fact that Tim Burton had just come along and rocked everyone's world with Batman, and they're like, well, we're not going to let that go unnoticed.

48:40
Case
Sure, yeah. Like, again, all these are taking what's in the zeitgeist and pulling it in, and the Incredibles is doing a ton of that. So let's talk about syndrome for a moment. I made a comparison with him to Jimmy Olsen earlier, and I think that is an apt comparison. Like, he is supposed to be this, like, fanboy biggest fan character with a shock of red hair.

49:01
Jmike
Like, it applies more to fandom these days than it did back then.

49:06
Doug
Well, there's definitely a, you know, a little knock there at fandom very much. He's like, I'm your number one fan. And then the next thing he does is boot him out of the car. You know, he's. There's a little bit of, like, making fun of fandom a bit, but what they're doing is they're saying, well, we take Jimmy Olsen, Superman's biggest fan, and turn him into Lex Luthor.

49:27
Case
Right?

49:27
Doug
Which is where he is at the end of the. You know, by the time we re encounter him as an adult, that's who he is. You know, he's running this semi secret corporation. He's got all the gadgets, he's dead set on killing all the supers. You know, he's very much that character. And what I love is that he's also got that kind of Gene Hackman esque, like a little bit of like the overconfidence to make up for a lot of inadequacy. Yeah, he's not competent, but.

49:59
Case
Well, he is a fanboy though. And that actually does give him some degree of confidence. Like the robot that he keeps iterating on, like does account for the weaknesses of all the people that it fights. Like there, when he's just buddy at the beginning of the movie, he's like, I know all your moves. Like is a detail there. He's such a nerd. He does have at least the ability to predict like, okay, well this is what these supers can do now. He doesn't predict it sufficiently. He underestimates everyone because he's overconfident by way of him being, you know, this prick.

50:34
Doug
No, that's all right. He's just a huge prick. That is, that's a good word for him.

50:38
Jmike
Yeah.

50:38
Case
You know, especially with like Mr. Incredible, we see that. Yes, he was overconfident with his original robot. He thought that was easily going to handle Mr. Incredible, and it doesn't. And so he's fascinated by it, but he iterates on it. So when he's allowed to play by his rules, where he's able to take and iterate and make better versions of the, of this like destructive robot again and again and not actually have his skin in the game. He is able to be very successful. It's when he tries to actually put himself out there that he's terrible at this job. Like he's clearly not, you know, in a controlled environment, he is good.

51:12
Case
But in the wild situation of even his own robot like at play, which they set up very well because the whole cover story for the robot was that, oh, it was, it got to be smart enough to think on its own and blah, blah. Like that's the COVID story for why Mr. Incredible goes in to fight the robot in the first place. That becomes the actual plot at the end of the movie.

51:30
Doug
Well, that also what you're seeing is like Syndrome's thing is, right, he's very observant of superhero strengths and weaknesses and he calibrates what he's doing to try and counter those things. But what he doesn't do is ever examine his own strengths and weaknesses.

51:44
Case
Right.

51:44
Doug
That's what leads to it. Right. He's not thinking twice in the movie. He is foiled by the fact that he has a cape, which Edna Mode points out is like, you know, she obviously figured that out. I never designed superhero capes anymore because of what happened. Right. She stopped doing it. Right. That seems like something. Every superhero knows not to wear a cape anymore. That's just stupid. Right? Yeah. Every. Every mistake he makes is because he's not thinking about himself. I designed this robot. It's perfect. It can't fail. And the first thing it does is it, quite by accident, essentially just disables the controller that he was using to pretend to fight it.

52:18
Case
Well, by accident in the sense that the robot intended to go for it, doesn't it?

52:22
Doug
Yeah. It gets knocked out. It sees it and knocks it out of his hand. Right.

52:25
Case
Yeah.

52:25
Doug
Syndrome did not account for that because he's not thinking about, oh, this would be a weakness. If the controller is something that is, you know, literally an object that could be knocked out of my hand, I could have built it into my suit. I could have had a backup for that controller, something. He didn't think of any of that.

52:40
Case
Yeah. He didn't have a second gauntlet that had the same controls. He immediately was negated in that situation. I do want to bring up two Alan Moore comparisons to what you were just discussing, so. Oh, yeah, the Watchmen comparison. So with Dollar Bill, the no capes thing happens there where his cape gets stuck inside the rotating doors of the bank that he's supposed to be protecting and it gets shot in the face. Now, that doesn't happen on screen or like in panel. It happens. They. They say that's what happened to Dollar Bill. They don't show us that because that's pretty horrific. But that's one part there. And then the robot at the end feels very much like the Alan Moore Captain Britain run with the. I forget the name of the. Of the robots or that Madge and Jaspers, like, sets loose the Fury.

53:24
Case
Pardon me? The Fury. It where it eventually realizes that, like, oh, well, my master is also a super. I should go after it as well. And that's what happens with this robot going after Syndrome.

53:33
Doug
I think the robot is also analog to the squid at the end of Watchmen. Right.

53:37
Case
It's.

53:37
Doug
It's this huge threat that's dropped onto a city by the Mastermind only to essentially aggrandize himself as a show. Right. So it's very much, you know, drawing on that part of Watchmen. And of course, just the general mystery of, like, hey, all the. All the superheroes had to go into hiding because of the law, and now they're being hunted down and killed. Like, straight out of Watchmen. Watchmen, yeah.

53:59
Case
Now, I will say Brad Bird supposedly didn't base this on Watchmen.

54:05
Doug
That's baffling. There's no. Like, he literally has a scene where, like, Par's boss, Wallace Shawn, the great Wallace Shawn, is literally starts going into a clock metaphor. This company is like, an enormous clock. He goes through the whole thing.

54:20
Case
I know, I know. I'm just saying, supposedly, like, at least, like, that's what's on Wikipedia. But, you know, like, either way, it's in the zeitgeist. Like, is the bigger point, like, the fact that they're trying to say the same things, whether or not they're influenced by each other. Not the point. It is saying very similar things. It has a very similar structure of, like, the pageantry of a superhero. You know, with the squid and, you know, and Adrian Veidt versus here with Syndrome and the robot. Like, and how that goes out of control. Like, how you can't fake it. You have to be an authentic hero. You have to, like, doing it the fake or the wrong way is ultimately going to blow up in someone's faces.

54:58
Case
You know, be it that this robot goes out of control and defeats Syndrome, or be it that the giant squid plot killed a lot of people, and ultimately, probably everyone's gonna find out about it.

55:07
Doug
Well, you also have to. The robot sort of defeats Syndrome. It knocks him out of contention, but his actual defeat comes later. And I. Which is a great, like, you think everything's over, you know, kind of horror movie jump scare where they come home, shh, the baby's sleeping. Like, I love that shot of him because he's like, you really get to see how evil he is. It's like, I'm gonna threaten the baby because fuck it, that's all I got left. You killed my robot. So I'm just gonna kill your. Your youngest kid?

55:32
Case
Well, not kill. I'm gonna try raise him as my own.

55:35
Jmike
And I meet my Robin.

55:36
Doug
Yeah, right. I'll make him into the fanboy kid. But, yeah, it's a great moment.

55:42
Case
Yeah. This, of course, brings up Jack. Jack, who we have not discussed as part of the family because he's not part of the active family throughout the majority of the movie. But Jack. Jack is this baby who, of course, on Disney plus the Avatar for my. My daughter's profile is the Jack picture. She even has, like, wears a head. Like a head like a hair bow or hair pigtail. Like a center. A center ponytail. Just like Jack. Like, we. We do that all the time.

56:06
Doug
She.

56:07
Case
Despite the fact that she has way more hair now, she still looks very much the same. But anyway, yeah, so Jack has, as you alluded, godlike powers. He can do anything. It seems he can shapeshift into multiple powered forms, including a flaming one. So we get the Human Torch analog in this group.

56:23
Doug
Yeah. He Hulks out. Yeah.

56:25
Case
Yeah. So I guess he's the thing also of the team. Even though Mr. Incredible, being the big strong guy, has, like, similar roles, the fact that he's not a hideous monster, you know, whereas Jack. Jack can be a hideous monster in.

56:37
Doug
The second one, I believe they say he has 17 documented powers, by the way.

56:42
Jmike
I feel like they expound upon it in the second movie. Wasn't there, like, a whole thing with the raccoon in the second movie I forgot about?

56:48
Doug
Yeah, he ends up in a fight with a raccoon in the backyard, which is very funny. There's also a short. I forget what it's called, but it's like, if you remember, in this movie, they leave Jack with the babysitter, and that's when Syndrome comes over. Right. There's a short. You can find it on Disney, which is like, what's happening back home with the babysitter and Jack. And like, because you can hear in the movie, like, she calls the babysitter, and the babysitter is frantically, like. You know, you can't. You can barely make out what she's saying, but she's terrified of what Jack is doing. And here you get to see the other end of the conversation as he's, like. He's, like, phasing through walls and, like, he can duplicate himself and, like, he can shrink and grow.

57:28
Doug
Like, he can do just literally any superpower. They just go, yeah, fuck it, Jack. Jack can do that, too. It's very funny. It's a joke. Like, it's. He's less of a metaphor. I think that it's just a fun joke that, like, he's got a million powers when whatever the situation, he's.

57:44
Case
He has the potential of being a baby.

57:46
Jmike
He's straight up, is Franklin Richards.

57:48
Case
Well, also that.

57:51
Doug
Yeah. And he. He helps defeat Syndrome at the end, of course, because Syndrome freaks out. Although what finally does Syndrome is at the end is the cape, which is a great chekhov's. Gun there from Edna mode with the cape thing.

58:05
Case
Yeah. Why don't we talk about Edna for a minute? So great performance by Brad Bird. I am capable of complimenting Brad Bird. I just need to. I just need to say that part out loud. Great performance by Brad Bird in the role. As someone who is a big fan of shows like Project Runway, I do love me a caddy fashion designer like this. It's fantastic. It's a devil's wear, Prada. But, like, a good character and, like, clever with all the superhero stuff. I love her.

58:32
Doug
Oh, yeah. She's an unqualified win. What a great character. Again, she's Q, right? She's the person who designs all the gadgets. But they said, well, what if that job was held by a fashion designer? She makes all the suits and the gadgets and she shows off, like, here's the suit for you. Like, it's flame retardant. They have, like, shoot jets of fire on it. All the different things it can do. She's just as funny in the second movie. Like, it's a. It's a really great chance to make what would ordinarily be boring exposition really fun.

59:02
Case
Her dialogue with every character where, like, when. When she's with Mr. Incredible and it's like.

59:07
Doug
Like, my God, you've gotten fat.

59:09
Case
I'm retired. Well, yes, that. But where it's like, darling. So am I darling. Here we are. And she has this, like, wicked smile. It's fantastic. I love the character. It's. It's such a. It's such a fun take. Like this. This fashion designer type character is such a fun concept for a superhero piece where she's, like, talking about the fashion of superheroes. So actually, fun fact. Speaking of Project Runway, so Tim Gunn used to do a show with the editor for our video clips, Alan Kistler on superhero fashion on YouTube. So that, like, that's just a fun little detail out there. So shout out to that. But, yeah, so it was a fun series where they looked at superhero fashion. And it's fun to look at superhero fashion like this. To have a conversation about the capes. Part of it is really good.

59:58
Case
It would have been nice if they had a little bit about why the trunks were there, because the circus strongman kind of aspect would be nice to mention. Just because, hey, if you're doing a superhero thing about fashion, you might as well talk about the elephant in the room for any. Any conversation about superhero costumes. You know, I just feel like that's the. The omitted one because they make Sense like, they to have. So you might as well just explain what the reason is, and people will stop being like, why are they wearing their underwear on the outside?

01:00:22
Jmike
I mean, you wouldn't.

01:00:25
Doug
Look, you got to protect your junk if you're a superhero. That's important.

01:00:29
Jmike
Exactly.

01:00:30
Case
Yeah. Like, it's that stuff.

01:00:33
Doug
Even.

01:00:33
Case
Even with the super fabric that Edna has come up with, like, Mr. Incredible has the chance of ripping it. Like, let's be real. Like, he bends over, he squats the wrong way. Like, he needs to wear those trunks.

01:00:43
Doug
Well, an Elastigirl needs maximum flag. She's gonna stretch herself in all kinds of shapes, so she needs some clothes that can really bend and take whatever punishment she's gonna dish out.

01:00:53
Case
Yeah.

01:00:55
Jmike
Especially when she's holding up a rocket.

01:00:56
Doug
Or being a human parachute, you know.

01:00:59
Jmike
Exactly. Or being a boat or, you know.

01:01:02
Case
Yeah. I mean, it makes sense for her to be durable, but it's great that her outfit is durable as such. I do love that the Dash costume is explicitly designed for his friction, which is a very speedster kind of costume detail for characters. The whole Flash ring costume pop out of the ring and has this fabric that is super resistant to friction has always been a part of the character, and it's nice to have that reflected on A big screen. Superhero suit, you mean you don't want.

01:01:28
Jmike
It to be made out of. Was it. What was it, rocket ship parts or whatever that crap was? The Snyderverse thing.

01:01:33
Case
Oh, yeah. Like, yeah, his, like, weird stitch together. I thought you were about to say, like, unstable molecules, which is like. The Fantastic Four costumes are made out of a fabric that is able to infinitely stretch and reconfigure based on superpowers. So, you know, in theory, we're kind of seeing that. But. But with Edna, obviously no One here is Mr. Fantastic, and, like, that. That role has been offloaded to the Edna character. But, yeah, I just wanted to shout her out because she's great, and people would find it insane if we didn't bring her up. J. Mike, was there anything in particular that you wanted to bring up about the Incredibles?

01:02:04
Jmike
I felt really old watching this movie because this came out when I was 13.

01:02:10
Case
God, you're so young.

01:02:12
Jmike
13, 14, I want to say.

01:02:14
Case
I mean, you feel old, but, like, I was in college when this movie came out.

01:02:17
Doug
I was in grad school, so.

01:02:19
Jmike
Oh, man. And I was like, oh, like, all the memories hit me. I was watching this. I remember watching this for the first time. My family, we all, like, sat around the tv. We were watching It. We were all laughing, and I immediately fell right back into that role, and I was like, oh, man, this is great. All the member berries. I was like, oh, man. But this movie has. It's starting to show its age a little bit with the animation and stuff.

01:02:42
Doug
Yeah.

01:02:42
Case
Yeah. Okay. That is one. I wanted to bring up the animation, especially when you compare it with. With Incredibles 2.

01:02:47
Jmike
Yeah. I was like, wow, this is. This is a hoof. I was watching. I came across some animators on YouTube the other day, and they did, like, a little short. And I was like, wow, this is kind of like what they were doing back in 2004, but, like, way better. And I was like, that's what people are doing now in, like, their free time. You're like, oh, wow, this is. We've come a long way in 20 years.

01:03:10
Case
Yeah. This was incredible when it came out. No. Pardon the pun, but. Yeah, But. But it is definitely showing. It's 2004. Like, it's certainly. They are doing a lot of tricks to make it look as good as possible, but there are. There are some clear spots and clear things to look for. Liquid surfaces are a big one. Like, I. I noticed that there was often, like, a ripple that didn't quite correspond to any sort of natural flow. Like in Edna's office, for example, she. They have, like, a walkway with, like, two, like, two ponds on the left and right side, and they. They're flowing as if it's like an outdoor.

01:03:42
Doug
Open.

01:03:42
Case
Like an outdoor, like, lake or something like that. Like, is the ripples that are going on, which doesn't make sense for the room that they're in. So, like, physics for a lot of those kind of things are kind of funky.

01:03:51
Jmike
Yeah. Sky, Ocean scenes.

01:03:53
Case
Skies look interesting. Like, they just look like an earlier kind of animation style. Like, there's just, like, something off, and I don't know what the. What the texturing or shading or gradients that are being used on it. It just doesn't. They don't quite look up to date anymore. So you're right. Like, there's certainly spots that. That it shows.

01:04:12
Jmike
I mean, it still looks great.

01:04:13
Case
Yeah, definitely looks great. Yeah. So I was looking at. So the. The fabric for the Incredibles costumes, I notice, has this sort of, like, unreal kind of red textureness to it that I was staring at. And I couldn't tell if that was an intentional thing or if it was a limitation of the technology for the characters, because you Compare it with Mr. Incredible's suit when he is. Or, like, the black Suit which has, like, this very Kevlar Y kind of texture to it that you. You can just see. You can see the sort of, like, fabric design to it versus the red suit. And maybe that's just because you have, like, way more action scenes with them in the red suits, especially the other characters. It allows them to, like, the sort of, like, texture being not quite real. Makes it, like, less.

01:04:55
Case
I don't know, easier to animate, maybe, was just the thought.

01:04:58
Doug
This is just a thing with animation in general, like 2D versus 3D, which is that the 2D animation will always look gorgeous from the first time it was made. Like, Sleeping Beauty is still one of the most gloriously gorgeous things ever put on screen. And it was done in, what, 1960 or something. It just absolutely looks incredible here. Because of advances in computer technology, you can definitely gauge how old something is by how it looks. For me, the issue with Incredibles visuals, one, they are stylized, which helps it not. That helps. You can kind of go, well, it's kind of an artistic choice to the point where I think Incredibles 2, while it looks better, does not look out of place with this one. The way, let's say, like, Toy Story 4 looks very different than Toy Story 1 or 2. But the.

01:05:46
Doug
The thing that I noticed, because this studio, like Pixar, is still, you know, they. They were still at the vanguard of this stuff, like Finding Nemo, which was released the year before, this is still one of the most beautiful things ever put on screen. Like, it still works, the original. What is here is they developed a technology for this movie that would help them kind of simplify and streamline creating human faces, where it's basically a character creator from, like, a Dark Souls game where you just, like, you just slide the eyes around. Okay, we want to put the eyes this far apart and do this with the nose. And they were able to do that to make it so they can make crowds more easily as opposed to having to quickly generate lots of people.

01:06:24
Doug
There are places where that falls down where, like, Mr. Incredible encounters these two cops right at the beginning of the movie. And their faces look freaking weird, and they look too similar to each other. And so there's. There's a little bit of that of, like, you needed to differentiate these people because you look at, like. Say again? Like, Wallace. Sean's character, he's very distinctive, and he looks great. Like, he is this tiny little human cartoon or Edna mode, like, where they spent the time to really make the characters distinctive. They look awesome. Like, Mr. Incredible's face is Designed after a Roman helmet. That's what they explicitly went for. And you can tell from the shape, like, so when they. When they spent the time to really craft stuff, it looks great.

01:07:00
Doug
But where they did use a shortcut here and there, that is, I think you can kind of tell now 20 years on.

01:07:06
Case
Yeah, I mean, and like I said it, or rather like you said, the stylized element, like, makes it look particularly good in retrospect. Like, it doesn't look, like, offensively bad, which some CG looks offensively.

01:07:18
Doug
It's not Jimmy Neutron. Right, right.

01:07:21
Jmike
You know, like, we're not comparing, like, N64 graphics to, like, stuff nowadays. It doesn't look that bad. It just. It just looks. You just can see.

01:07:30
Case
You can see it. Yeah. Like when. When you see, like, the, like all the foliage. Like, what. When they're on the island or they're outside of ED is.

01:07:37
Doug
Yeah, yeah. The isle. The island is definitely Donkey Kong country. Like, that's where it takes place.

01:07:41
Case
Yeah, there's. There's a shot when the. The two kids start running away from the robot bird right before the. The hovercrafts start chasing them, which looks very much like a video game because the bird is following them. And it, like, it looks just like Crash Bandicoot.

01:07:56
Jmike
Yeah, it does. Which is fine.

01:08:01
Case
Like, this looks good. It looks like it's a good looking. It's a great looking 2004 CGI movie. Like, it's fantastic in that. It's just like, now you can see the seams. And especially like you said, like, with Incredibles 2, like, they don't look distinctly different, but you can tell. Incredibles 2 just looks, like, way better in terms of, like, what they're capable of doing. In terms of it's a little more.

01:08:20
Doug
Polished and there's certain sequences that are a little stylized. There's a scene where Mrs. Incredible goes out, like, tracking the bad guy at night through the city that, you know, has a little more, like, pop to it in the way it looks. There's a lot of parts of that movie that are set at sea that, like, you know, just noticing the way. Just the water physics and stuff, like, it's just, you know, it's advanced. It's a.

01:08:39
Doug
That movie was made 10 years later and with better technology, and you can see that they made those advancements, but in terms of the stylized look of the characters in the world, they kept that consistent because I think, is this the same way that this is based on the Batman animated series and the Fleischer cartoons on which that draws flattening that stuff a little bit for the sake of, hey, it's a comic book. Helps preserve this movie so that even those little flaws don't really detract from the fact that it still looks great.

01:09:10
Case
Yeah, yeah. Like we keep saying, it looks fantastic. And they did a great job with it all. Like, Brad Bird is a hell of animation director. He's a good director of live action, but a hell of animation director and made excellent judicious choices with how things look that really prevented from being distracting to see the March of Time. It is there.

01:09:36
Doug
Yeah.

01:09:36
Case
But it is way less so than, like, you said, like, a Toy Story.

01:09:39
Doug
Well, I think that's a big mark of a director who knows what they're doing in terms of advanced technology. Like, there's a lot of, like, kind of stuff around the Internet about, like, why did CGI look so good 20 years ago and it looks crappy now? And it's because, like, you look at, like, Terminator 2 and Jurassic park and, like, they still hold up. They look incredible. Like, those dinosaurs are goddamn real dinosaurs and you can't control. Convince me otherwise. And it's because James Cameron and Steven Spielberg, they knew the limits of their technology and they said, we're going to have to work with that so that we want it to look great. Here's how we have to do it within those limitations.

01:10:16
Doug
And once CGI got good enough to the point where there were no limitations, people started being less judicious, and they just were using it everywhere until everything is now this pixel soup that is just not nearly as compelling as when, say, I don't know, like Davy Jones in the second Pirates movie. And you're like, holy shit, Bill Nighy has an octopus for a face. And it's real. You know, like, they. And there's that in the Incredibles as well. Like, there's that sense of like, yeah, Brad Bird is, as you said, he's. He's a phenomenal director of animation. He's even his, like, episodes of, like, the Simpsons are great. Like, he knows how to frame a shot, how to set up a sequence of shots for, like, say, an action sequence or whatever it might be.

01:10:54
Doug
He's really good at, like, the storyboarding part of it, the planning, so that the final thing looks great and still holds up.

01:11:02
Case
Yeah, absolutely. So, Doug, is there anything that you wanted to bring up that we have not discussed at this point?

01:11:08
Doug
I kind of want to talk about how the movie ends. We've talked about a little bit with this battle with the Omnidroid, we haven't really talked about Frozone, but who's great. We could spend a little time on him. But before we get to Frozone, this. This battle with the Omnidroid, like, the Omnidroid itself, I don't think is that interesting. It's just a big old robot. But what it represents, it's simple.

01:11:30
Case
It's a big circle with tentacles that come out of it.

01:11:32
Doug
Yeah. Setting aside the design of it or the fact that it's not a personality, what I love is the movie has been toying with this question, and the franchise toys with this question, like, do we need superheroes? Where do they fit into society? But this is sort of like this great moment of, like, well, when the shit hits the fan, what are we gonna do? And, like, watching them come together, it's a great moment of them. Like, they're. They're truly, like, at their best as a family fighting this thing. And even in the middle of that fight, I think Mr. Incredible still, like, because he's reeling from the fact that he thought his whole family had died, like, is still trying to control you guys. Get out. I'll handle this. Right. And then they come in and go, like, nope, you need us.

01:12:12
Doug
We gotta do this together. It's a great moment for them. And then the final ending, like the battle with Syndrome, and then the very end, the denouement where we see them kind of, like, synthesize their two identities now to a degree where, like, okay, we're, you know, Violet's gonna ask Tony Reidinger on the date. Dash is gonna compete with sport. The parents are gonna cheer him on, but when the Underminer shows up, it's time to suit up. And, like, it's a great kind of coming together of all of those things at the end of showing, like, it's not either or. It is both. You are Bob Parr and Mr. Incredible, and there is a way for you to thread that needle and keep us all safe. I just like how they bring it all to a close.

01:12:55
Case
Yeah. I mean, we didn't really talk that much about the final battle and the later portion. So, yeah, let's spend some time. I think that the actual final fight is a fantastic use of team power moves. Like, they. They work together so well. And we get. We get a callback in the. When Bob is actually able to hang out with Dash because he has been laid off from his job but has a ton of money. He actually gets to bond with his son. And we See them like, playing catch and combining their super strength and super speed to do like, really dramatic versions of catch. And that is in play in the fight, which I think is great. And you know, we get to see them all do, like, they're really cool moves. We get to see Dash run on water and like the.

01:13:34
Case
And then his dad gets to be so goddamn proud of him. Like, in that moment, like after the fight, you know, we. We see especially like with the rocket and like, okay, so Frozen, slowing them down using the ice. And like, Elastigirl is so smart to like, hold off for like the final shot. And like, you know, and. And then we've got Mr. Incredible, like, holding the rocket ready to like, go. Like, great team moves, you know, like wonder. Wonderful uses of them all. And they're all competent here. Like, you know, Mr. Incredible figures out to use the rocket hand because of his previous encounters with the fight or with that robot. And like, is. Is accurate. Like, he is a competent superhero and Elastic Girl is a competent superhero and Frozen is a competent superhero.

01:14:13
Case
And the kids are proving themselves to be very competent. Like, they're doing great in this role. Like, it's. It's a wonderful team battle sequence.

01:14:20
Doug
Yeah, that's the fun of any superhero team up, which is like, hey, wait a minute. This power combined with that power. Right now we get a fastball special, you know. Yeah, that. That's what we're literally we're doing here. As you said, like, he's. He. At one point, Bob throws the remote for the robot for Dash to catch. And it's that the catch sequence from earlier in the movie, right? Or the way Violet uses her force fields at certain points to block the robot so that her family can do other things while they're working. So, yeah, working in tandem is a lot of fun here. I think it's fun to watch them fight it on their own. But those little moments where they combine their powers to do something different, that's them really working together as a family unit.

01:15:01
Jmike
It.

01:15:02
Case
Yeah. And it also lets the kids see their parents as cool as they are. Like, it. It's nice both the group fight earlier, like on the island. And here, like, the kids get to see just how competent their parents are in a way that they've never got to see the, like, why their parents are cool. And this is like a real moment for them to be like, oh, yeah, dad might be like the goofy dad, but he's also like the world's greatest superhero. And mom is like the other world's greatest superhero. Superhero. Like, they are extremely capable at all points and do protect them. Like. Like when Violet gets knocked out by the robot. Like, I know, it's like the omnidroid thing. I have such a hard time, like, saying that.

01:15:43
Jmike
Robot?

01:15:44
Case
Yeah, the robot. It's the robot. The mad robot that fights Superman. The mechanical monster. You know, like, Bob catches it. Like he's super strong and like he's. He's their dad. Like, he's gonna protect them. And that's a nice moment there.

01:15:57
Doug
Yeah. Like I said, this is a very satisfying. Just from a directorial perspective, it's a satisfying action sequence. It's well put together by Brad Bird. All the little beats of it work together really well. And it's a big stand up and cheer moment when they finally defeat the Thing. And again, the wisdom to have it like, well, let's have one more encounter with Syndrome that's more personal as opposed to just this. It's wrecking the city now. It's like, I'm just gonna kidnap your kid and fly away, and none of you can fly. So, you know, which is the thing he pointed out at the beginning of the movie. Like, he's like, you can't fly, but I can't. You know, he. He makes that point. And for them to still kind of triumph over that, which is, you know, throw me.

01:16:35
Doug
It's literally the fastball special. It's a fastball special. Yeah, yeah, right. And it's not Bob who goes to say it's the mom, right. Who has to fly up into the air and. And save Jack. Jack. It's a great moment of, like, combining action and horror. Again, giving you the one last scare and allowing them to save their family, even at the expense of their house. Like, their home is literally destroyed when the plane lands. That is the Incredibles 2 picks up shortly after this, where it's like they're living in motels because this happened. So it's interesting. Again, they've sacrificed their normal life. Their house has been destroyed for the sake of being superheroes.

01:17:14
Case
But. And then, as you pointed out, we get the three months later and we get to see how they are so enriched by having that duality be embraced as opposed to trying to subjugate part of it in order to fit in. Like, the whole family has really gravitated towards it all. I want to talk about the dash coming in. Second thing. I think that is. So. There's been this challenge with Superman in the 80s. They tried to make it so that he was like, a football star in high school and have, like, they have since, like, gone back and forth of like, did he actually play football? Did he pretend to play football? Was he, like, not allowed? Was he like the water boy or something like that? Or, like, they're, you know, the.

01:17:52
Case
The team manager or whatever, you know, what was his role? And I, I find it interesting here to be an example of, like, okay, we're gonna play with him being the athlete, but we're gonna have him come in second. It's like in the comic Being super, which is a Supergirl story, like a Supergirl origin story. They. They talk about how she's on the track team and she always comes in, like, second and always runs the exact same race, like, literally, like, to the footfall. Like, her time is, like, perfect. Like, she's just so good at not being too impressive, but being a good runner on the team, that she's coming in the exact same time every single time. And you kind of feel like Dash is doing that same thing where he's like, you know, he is still.

01:18:27
Case
He's showing that he is capable, but is keeping it under. Under wraps in a way that is just. I don't know, it's. It's just an interesting detail there. Like how, like, if you have superpowers, like, how do you keep it, like, you know, under. Under wraps, but at the same time still enjoying some of the benefits of it in your. In your normal life? Like, and I think it's a really, like, specific example of it for the characters because no one else, like Violet's not using her powers for social life purposes. And, and while probably, I guess we're gonna deal with a situation where their superpowers become how they have their income, like the parents, you know, like, their. Their lives aren't not meaningfully better aside from, like, household chores and stuff like that, because of their superpowers.

01:19:09
Case
Dash, however, like, has a social standing because of his superpowers. Like, he wants to be an athlete because there's a social component to being an athlete and being a track star has. Has a thing that he'll benefit from. And yeah, sure, some of that's energy, but some of that is, like, how he relates to people. He wants to be able to show off a little bit to everyone and. And be this extroverted kid. So I don't know, what are your thoughts there? Like, the Superman pretending to be second place type Superman. Like, what, like, how. How does that scene come off to you guys?

01:19:43
Jmike
I think it's better than a lot of other recent instances of things like that where, you know, he's told to not participate at all, like you said, because, you know, somebody might catch on or somebody might get hurt, because a lot of times he doesn't have a great father figure, but not. Not wink. Yeah, but it's good to, like. Like you said, have him actually be a part of something because that's how, like you said, he relates to people, and that's how he's gonna be able to reach out and have friends that he doesn't really have. And that's what's causing him to act out in class because he can't really relate to anybody and cause him not to be such a little prick to everybody else that he sees mainly his teachers.

01:20:28
Case
Yeah.

01:20:28
Jmike
Yeah.

01:20:29
Case
I have to imagine his behavior has improved substantially. Although he has the potential of now becoming, like, the douchebag jock archetype.

01:20:36
Jmike
I don't think that's gonna happen.

01:20:38
Case
Yeah, I think he's got a better heart than that, but he is a little prankster.

01:20:41
Jmike
Yeah.

01:20:42
Doug
I mean, the movie doesn't have answer for this, in a way, because we as a society don't have answer for this. Right. I mean, this is part of the debate going on right now with. With trans athletes, which is, if I was to take the opposing viewpoint and take the horrendous bigotry out of it, the concern is, well, a person who is born male would have a genetic advantage by being bigger and stronger than the other female athletes who were born female, and therefore, it's unfair. On the other hand, you also go like, well, Michael Phelps is built like a human torpedo, and he got that because of genetics. And he gets to kick everyone's ass in the Olympics because of that. And we're struggling with this idea of, like, well, do we care if athletes have a genetic advantage versus they went.

01:21:27
Doug
They just went in the gym and worked harder than everybody else, you know, so to expect this movie from 2004 to have a better answer for this unresolved question than our society does now, you know, I. You know, I think it's fair for the movie to end on this kind of unclear note of, like, well, they can't reveal their secret identities. They still have that problem. The government ban on superheroes is still in effect at the end of this movie. It'll be dealt with more in the second one. So for Dash to go like, well, I still get to compete in sports even if I have to kind of fake my Way to second place. It's better than not than sitting on the sidelines entirely. Yeah, he could just win the race in world record time every time.

01:22:11
Doug
Shouldn't he be allowed to do that?

01:22:12
Case
Maybe.

01:22:13
Doug
Maybe that's just fair. And maybe he competes against other people. And if you have a superpower, then you're the best athlete. Is that any different than being Michael Jordan and just being awesome at basketball because of a combination of genetics and hard work? I don't know. I don't think the movie has answer. I don't have answer, but I think it's fair to look at this and kind of go, well, the movie started by asking these questions about if you're exceptional at something, do you have to hide that to fit in? The movie doesn't fully answer that by the end. It just says you still should be yourself. And that's probably more important than what society has to say about you. But it's not the end of the conversation.

01:22:55
Case
Yeah. And like, superpowers with sports is a thing that will get brought up in piece of media after piece of media. It's. It's a difficult one to do, but it's a fantasy that isn't necessarily real. So it. While there are real world analogs, they are way more complicated to have a conversation about than like, well, maybe. Maybe reverse complicated. Because the superpower one is like, well, I don't know. Like, Dash can't. Dash just wins the race. Like, that's just the automatic situation if he's not, like, held in check in some way. So. But I don't know. It's. It's strange. Like, you know, I think about, like, Ultimate Spider man dealt with, like, Spider man trying to be like, a basketball star. And likewise, Spider Girl had Mayday Parker being a basketball star with superpowers.

01:23:38
Case
There is actually a Superman elseworlds where he became a, I believe, also a basketball star with his superpowers. Like, he didn't realize how powerful he was, and so he just thought he was like a really gifted athlete, kind of unbreakable style, and becomes just this amazing, like, basketball player. I forget how that one goes. So we should probably look at that at some point. J Mike. But yeah, like, the. The athlete thing is just one I wanted to, like, kind of bring up because it's. It is one that, like, no one quite knows where to. Where to go with your superheroes. Like, if it feels good having them just, like, run the same race every time, or if it feels good to have them be, you know, exceptional, you Know, like, could. Could Dash just have won the race?

01:24:17
Case
But, like, only a little bit? Also a thing he could have done. Or could he have sat on the sidelines? And should he have sat on the sidelines? Hard to really say. Movie can't. Movie comes down that it's good that he participates. It's good for him that he participates, but necessarily, like, what's the. You know, how is that, right? I don't know if it's, you know, answered with definitiveness. It's just for Dash specifically, he needed to be that boy. Like, he needed to run. Run, even if it's not at full speed.

01:24:46
Doug
Right. Yeah. Participating in this stuff, even in a limited fashion, is better than sidelining entirely.

01:24:53
Case
Yeah. I have to admit, I do kind of wish that this movie had made it so that Dash didn't look as much like he was running in all the, like, the group run sequences. I wish it looked more like he was walking, but keeping up with everyone, because he's, like. He appears to be running with everyone in all the shots. And then it would have been just kind of fun if they just, like, played with. Just with just how fast he was, you know, like, walking at a slow pace but, like, still keeping up with everyone.

01:25:17
Jmike
I would have given. Given away Case.

01:25:20
Case
I mean, in like. Like, the group shots of them being heroes running around.

01:25:24
Jmike
What, you mean like, the. The track field?

01:25:27
Case
No, no, no. Not, not.

01:25:28
Doug
You mean, like, the other three family members are, like, running at full speed, but he appears to be doing a walk cycle?

01:25:33
Case
Yeah, exactly. That. That just would have been fun, but not necessary. And, like, I don't need to get into specifics of how his super speed works. Like, is he running? And then he can just run faster, which is probably what's happening, and it's all fine. But. But, yeah, then we have the Underminer show up, which is, again, goes back to the whole Fantastic Four comparison. And that's, you know, the Mole man right there, which is great because we get Superman versus the Mole man or the Mole Men, if. If we want to go back to the George Reeves original movie that. That launched the series, there's. There's a little bit of a nod there for us Superman fans sense. But. But it ends with just like, oh, yeah.

01:26:08
Case
Like, they are so enriched by being superheroes, like, by having that duality explored and now living with both parts of their lives. Because we open with the whole saying that, like, well, no one could be super all the time. That's. That's obviously crazy. So now it's like, yeah, it's a reminder that, like, you get to be super some of the time, and you. You get to be ordinary some of the time. And that's a balance that they all, like, benefit from. And so it's very. That part is very hopeful. Like, them. Like, them being allowed to. To be exceptional at the end of the movie is the hopeful aspect of this movie. Even though I think that it opens with sort of a more, like I said, angry kind of, like, perspective, I think it does get there at the end.

01:26:46
Doug
Yeah. And again, to segue into Incredibles 2, which opens with the fight against the Underminer, it kind of shows that it's not that simple. They don't just get to do this. There's still, like I said, all these problems that they have in the world of the franchise that have not gone away. And so it's kind of neat to see them continue on. I think I like Incredible two more than most, but I think there's a lot there to chew on if we get to that one. And that continuing fight against the Underminer, as you said, the backdrop is this is the triumphant end of this movie, and then what goes wrong during the Underminer fight is the springboard for what happens in the second one. But I just love the Underminer again, bringing in these 60s Batman villains.

01:27:30
Doug
He's very much an Adam west, also played by John Ratzenberger because he's Pixar's lucky charm at this point. But what a great little performance from him as this goofball villain character. I almost wish they had more villains in this world. We really don't get to see very many. They talk about some, but we never see them. And it's a little bit like Watchmen as well.

01:27:53
Case
Getting back to this. Yeah, it gets back to this feeling a bit like the James Bond is the first thing, and then the superhero thing is an add on after that because, like, the villains are very James Bondi kind of villains as opposed to, like, just generic super villains. Except for the Underminer specifically.

01:28:07
Doug
Yeah, he's got his big, like, villain speech and everything.

01:28:12
Jmike
Is.

01:28:12
Doug
That's it? Yeah, I was looking for it.

01:28:15
Case
I do want to say that this movie is. Is astute in many of the observations it makes about superhero stuff. Like the you caught me monologuing is a great bit right there. And it's a thing that, like, now seems, like, quaint just because this movie is 20 years old, but at the same time, like, it. It was very interesting for a mainstream media piece to be like, yeah, here's the dissection of the superhero genre. Like, here's the capes conversation for. From Edna, you know, like, here's all the. Here's the problems of a secret identity. Here's why you wouldn't want to be super all the time, yada yada. So like, the movie is introspective about the superhero genre, even though I think it's doing a lot of stuff and not just superhero stuff. And so I do appreciate that. I think that.

01:28:57
Case
I think that this is a strong movie with a really cool family team that are very effective together. And it's nice that we got a. A competent set of parents within a competent set of kids. Like, it could very easily have been the kids where like the. The real heroes or that the parents are saving the kids or something. But they hit the dynamic really well while at the same time everyone having their goofy kind of quirks. And so it's like a really good family dynamic balance. I rather enjoy this movie, even if it's not. Even if I don't like it as much as I think the general consensus.

01:29:29
Doug
Of people is I think it's a great conversation. The movie itself is a conversation on superheroes in general. And it comes at a point in time where you have to sort of think about when this movie came out in 2000, 2004, we're in the run up to the MCU, but it hadn't started yet. The MCU starts in 2008 and Christopher Nolan's Batman is 2005, one year after this. So you're in this world of like the late 90s is basically a desert as far as superhero movies. It's like we had Batman Returns and then a bunch of dog shit after that, leading up to like Sam Raimi's Spider man and the X Men doing okay. And then a bunch of these weird like, Marvel one offs that like, didn't quite work.

01:30:05
Doug
Like Hulk, Ghost Rider, things like that were just sort of like, okay, I guess we got this weird daredevil movie with Ben Affleck, right. So the superhero genre was like. You could see the sparks starting to happen for that. But the flame of superhero stuff didn't really Turn on until 2008 when we get Dark Knight and Iron Man. It's the perfect time to be sort of waxing nostalgic about the again 60s Batman stuff. The Christopher Reeve Superman stuff, and to a lesser extent Batman. All of this golden and Silver age comic stuff that feeds into this. It's a great chance to get kind of meta and talk about these things and kind of how fun they are within the family still. What is, I think, a very effective family story before everything gets kind of weed in ified.

01:30:55
Case
Yeah, that's one way of looking at it. Or just MCU ified in general. The. The Robert Downey Jr kind of quippiness starts that whole. That. That whole progression, as it would go. I don't know. Is there anything that we. We didn't hit on that you guys would like to.

01:31:09
Jmike
To address the true mvp, Ari, the babysitter.

01:31:16
Case
Oh, yeah. I. I did enjoy her where she, like, was rattling off, like, all these, like, factoids about being a babysitter. I remember doing, like, babysitter CPR training, and, like, they, like, try to impress on you, like, all the things you should be doing for the kids, and it was like, oh, that was cute. She was, like, parroting at it very well. And then it was like, I wish my parents played me Mozart, because sometimes I don't understand anything.

01:31:35
Jmike
She was surely left alone on her own island without any training about what was going on with that kid.

01:31:41
Case
Yeah.

01:31:41
Doug
Yeah. I think what I love about this is that for all of the superhero stuff in it and kind of all of the adventure stuff in it never stops commenting on kind of the awkward family stuff that affects everybody, you know, from, like, you know, Mrs. Incredible, like, looking at her ass in the mirror and going, like, I've let myself go, you know, or, you know, Violet's crush or, you know, any of these things that are, like, very human within the superhero context. Like, I think that's what really makes this work because you could still see your own family or yourself in these characters, despite their very extraordinary circumstances. Circumstances.

01:32:19
Case
Yeah. I have never seen myself more in Mr. Incredible than I do now as an actual father. Not seen this movie. And since that particular change happened in my life, and that was a big change for me, and it's like, oh, yeah, okay. I'm really feeling it. I'm really relating to Mr. Incredible, and I'm really relating to the moments of being excited for, like, when my daughter climbs up a thing that she shouldn't be climbing up. I always am a little excited, and my wife is always a little mad at me that I'm so excited. Excited about it. So, like, it was like, I definitely could relate to those moments there. Yeah. I don't know. It's a fun film.

01:32:54
Doug
In short, incredible.

01:32:57
Case
Yeah. Doug, thank you for bringing this.

01:32:59
Doug
Oh, I'm glad to. I'm glad. Glad we had a chance to get back together and get on mic again. And I think this is a really fun superhero topic. And yeah, maybe we'll put two on the docket at some point or something else.

01:33:08
Case
Yeah, yeah. I mean, not 14 years, like the actual weight between the movies, but we'll probably give it a minute and then we'll come back to it. In the meantime, you're always welcome back here, but also where can people find you and follow you?

01:33:20
Doug
Sure. So my show is Nostalgium Arcanum. It's as hard to spell as you think, which makes it real easy to find and follow. But if you type in nostalgia, not nostalgia, but nostalgia and a social network of your choice or podcast app of your choice, you'll find it because again, nothing else is spelled that way because the kids love Latin. So just go, yeah, any social network or podcast app and look for it. The show is a nostalgia based show, so each week we have a guest on to talk about whatever subject it is that still kind of got a hold on their hearts and brains 20, 30 years later and why that is.

01:33:50
Doug
And if you want a good place to start, Case has been on a few episodes of ours, including, gosh, we did one on Friends, we did one on Calvin and Hobbes and Dazed and Confused. So you're welcome back anytime.

01:33:59
Case
Yeah, thank you. Thank you, jmac. You should think of something that you want wax poetically about and yeah, whatever.

01:34:06
Doug
That thing is, it's just like I said, still got a you won't shut up about 30 years later.

01:34:10
Case
How about a goofy movie?

01:34:11
Doug
How about it?

01:34:15
Jmike
How about a goofy or extremely goofy movie?

01:34:19
Doug
I'm sorry, that's too goofy. We can't have you on for that.

01:34:21
Jmike
Oh, man.

01:34:24
Case
Don't you steal my brand, J Mike. Don't you steal my brand.

01:34:26
Jmike
What are you talking about, Case? I don't know what you're talking about.

01:34:30
Case
J Mike, on that note, where can people find you and follow you?

01:34:33
Jmike
I'm gonna go ahead and transition totally to over at Blue Sky J5 BlueSky Social. That's gonna be my home from now on. I'm only on Twitter for sports stuff, but Blue sky is now my official official place.

01:34:47
Case
Yeah, Blue sky is where I'm trying to. To direct people to these days. I mean, you can also find me on Instagram where I am holding on to my aim screen name from high school for Dear Life, which is at Castle Coatl 5. But on Blue sky you can find me at Case Aiken, the bluesky Social, whatever it is. But if you search for case hiken, you'll. You'll find me on it. So find me on bluesky. It's been a lot of fun trying to transition all of my comics, Twitter friends and content over to BlueSky, but I'm starting to make that progression. But if you also want to engage with us more directly, you can also find us at the Certain POV Discord server, which you can find a link on our website or in the show notes for the show.

01:35:24
Case
Go to the Certain POV Discord and come interact with us directly. Like I'm hanging out there all the time. If you tag J Mike, he will.

01:35:31
Doug
Respond, I'm there as well.

01:35:34
Case
Yeah. And Doug is an active participant in our Discord. It's great having him and it's great having a lot of the podcast family that we've accrued, this incredible podcast family that's out there. So come interact with us directly there. It's a really good time. We talk about the episodes, we talk about other nerd content, and, you know, it's a good old time. But you should also check out the Certain POV podcast network. We have a ton of great shows. I am going to shout out Books that Burn Right now, which is a wonderful show that takes the perspective of the characters in the piece are rational actors and the author is the one inflicting trauma upon them and how that is perceived. And it's a really interesting approach to looking at books and especially books that have traumatic things occur to the characters.

01:36:23
Case
So that's a really wonderful series to check out. I've been a patron for them for years and years now. So yeah, check out Robin Nicole doing that. It's such a great show and they've been trudging on and it's real hard to keep podcasts going. We all have friends who have started shows and life gets in the way. This show has had issues with production because of life getting in the way. So I just want to give a shout out to a show that continues to just do exceptional work. So check that out and then circle back for our next episode. But until then, stay super man.

01:37:00
Jmike
Men of Steel is a Certain POV production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Sophia Ricciardi. Our logo is by Chris Bautista and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our theme is by Jeff Moonan.

01:37:26
Doug
Are you tired of watching your beloved characters being tortured by careless authors? Are you sick of feeling like they.

01:37:32
Case
Could have swapped out all of the.

01:37:34
Doug
Painful action and the plot would remain untouched. Subscribe to Books that Burn, the Fortnightly Book Review podcast focusing on fictional depictions of trauma. We assume that the characters reactions are reasonable and focus on how badly or well they were served by their authors. Join us for our minor character spotlights, main character discussions, and favorite non traumatic things in the dark books we love. Find us on Spotify, itunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts.

01:38:00
Case
CPOV certainpov.com.