Another Pass at Space Jam: A New Legacy
We were given homework by Dave Ebert to watch the Space Jam sequel. Which we did. Better on a technical level, but blurrier to the point of being less enjoyable, can the trio determine if it's rabbit season or duck season on this disjointed sequel?
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The meeting titled "Another Pass At Space Jam A New Legacy" focused on reviewing and discussing the latest developments surrounding the project. While specific outcomes were not detailed, the session aimed to evaluate progress and consider further adjustments, indicating a collaborative effort to enhance the project's quality. No explicit action items were identified during this meeting, suggesting it may have been primarily exploratory in nature, allowing participants to share insights and perspectives without immediate decisions or tasks assigned.
Transcription
00:00
David
I want to apologize for making your podcast unlistenable. Like, people are like, wait, why is there a trigger warning on this space Jam podcast? Who ruined the episode? And my answer is Michael Bay. Welcome to certain point of views. Another pass podcast. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and review on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com dot.
00:25
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome to Another Pass podcast. I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I am joined by my co host, Sam Alicea.
00:32
Sam
Hi.
00:33
Case
And today I am honored to be chatting with a friend of mine from my theater days. I've got David Ebert here.
00:41
David
Hi, guys.
00:44
Sam
Welcome.
00:46
Case
We have come a long way since you were playing the pseudo Foley artist in an off Broadway show. Tell the listeners a little bit about yourself.
00:55
David
Well, I no longer do off Broadway.
00:59
Case
Probably for the best.
00:59
David
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely for the best. I'm Dave Ebert. I'm an actor, and I'm a comedian. And in recent years, I became a writer and director. And I do a lot of commercials, do a lot of tv, do all the stuff that you do. And I have kids. And I have two kids, which is why I'm qualified to talk about today's episode as both an adult and a person who viewed it with children.
01:24
Case
That is true, because today we are talking about a movie that is definitely supposed to be targeted at kids. But as were talking about before we started recording, I don't think any of us are really convinced that this was made for kids. I don't think anyone, any of us are really convinced who this movie was made for, because today we are talking about space Jam two, or as it's supposed to be called, space a new legacy.
01:46
David
It wasn't a sign.
01:47
Sam
It's a brand new legacy.
01:50
David
Yes.
01:50
Sam
That you assigned us. Thank you.
01:52
David
It was. I mean, in every respect, this was an assignment someone years ago. It was like, we should make another space jam. And every, like, nineties kid that was now, like, turning into an adult was like, yeah, we need a. We need a space jam. But, like, no one was like, let's go back and watch space Jam and evaluate if it deserves a sequel. They were just like, I'll remember it. Remember space Jam? Remember pogs? Let's make another space jam.
02:20
Sam
I never won. Like, when my sister told me, because my sister actually really liked space Jam one, I did not like it. Even as a child, I was not down with it. Not my favorite movie. And so she was like, they're making another space jam. And I was like, why was my immediate response? Why? Why would you do that? That movie made no sense. Like, do I love animation? Yes. Did I love Looney tunes? Absolutely love them. But yeah, space jam, not my favorite and didn't need to happen.
02:49
David
I just want to say something about space Jam proper. Like, the first space jam is that it could have been just blank screen for 2 hours, and it would have done well because it came at the emergence of the NBA as a cultural zeitgeist thing in America. It was the same eradic that the NBA was shipped worldwide as a property. And it was during the Bulls insane run that was the time that basketball turned on in people's minds. And we got Shazam and we got steel. And I'm mentioning all Shaq properties, we got Shaq Fu.
03:27
Case
Michael Jordan actually got his own video game at the same time. Windy city for Sega Genesis and Super Nintendo.
03:33
David
Oh, no way. I don't have. I have Shaq Fu for the Genesis. I didn't know Jordan also had a game.
03:39
Case
Somehow. Shaq Fu is the better game.
03:41
David
It's pretty good. It's honestly, for a fighting game, it's pretty good. Shaq is the worst character in it, which is ironic. You'd think Shaq would be like, beef up my stats. And it's also like Sci-Fi fantasy. Like, there's no other basketball player in it, right?
03:54
Case
Yeah. Either in space Jam or Shaq Fu.
03:59
David
But that's the thing. Like, at the time, they were just like, were coming off the eighties too. Like the eighties were all about, like, we don't care what we're putting in front of the kids sell toys. You know, they're like, it's a mutant turtle. It's a building that transforms. It's bugs that can turn into guns.
04:17
Case
You know, they're big and they're bad. They're beetleborgs.
04:20
Sam
Yeah.
04:21
David
Yes.
04:22
Sam
This is also the time where Warner Brothers actually had a Warner Brothers store.
04:26
David
Yeah.
04:27
Sam
Where you could go and buy like every single, like, Looney tunes thing and Batman properties and like, all sorts of like, knickknacks. Just like Disney has Disney stores. They had a Warner Brothers store. It's like a big deal.
04:39
Case
And VHS. We've brought this up a couple of times. It is shocking how specific an era where all of a sudden you had access to these old cartoons and everything. Yeah, obviously it's the eighties when the Betamax versus VHS wars and so forth. But we're still in that period here. VHS is still relatively new, or at least for the parents who are buying VHS for their kids. And so the cultural legacy of cartoons from the forties that have been, like, in serials and then, like, before, you know, before movie presentations and then on in syndication and so forth, it's finally like, oh, we can buy it and watch it at home. And, like, yeah, you know, we're all kind of in the same age bracket where, like, we probably watched the death, the, like, the Warner Brothers cartoons, because that was what was available.
05:26
Case
And it was, like, really cool to have and own in a way that was different than, like, the cartoons that were on at the time, which oftentimes were cashing in on that popularity. Like, tiny tunes, for example.
05:36
Sam
Yeah. There was also, like, a huge push, like, just VHS cartoons of older properties where, like, even burger King, like, gave out Popeye VHS tape with some, like, with, like, some meals. Like, I was like, my mom was like, oh, look, you got a Popeye cartoon. And I was like, what? And you'd go home and you'd watch that? I think I even got, like, the Mario Brothers tv show at VHS at Burger King.
06:03
Case
The super show.
06:05
Sam
Yes. I don't know what was up with the end of the nineties, like, the end of the eighties, beginning of the nineties, but this was something that they were actually doing. They were like, here, kid, take an old property.
06:17
David
That reminds me a little bit of. Do you remember that phase in the nineties where they urbanized Looney tunes?
06:25
Case
Yes.
06:25
David
There was, like, big long shirts with tweety bird with, like, a blood bandana around his forehead.
06:33
Sam
Okay, so this is definitely gonna date me, but I am going to admit this. I still own, and I do not know why I still own it. I still own a button down baseball shirt with bugs Bunny and Daffy duck dressed as crisscross.
06:51
David
I mean, that's like, I'd say in this current climate, it's a priceless artifact.
06:58
Sam
I still have that.
06:59
Case
I really pause for a second. I might actually have it in a quilt that's, like, just out of my reach. Hang on a second.
07:05
Sam
Really?
07:07
David
That's incredible, guys, I just gotta tell you. This is the equivalent of, like, my grandfather saved us world War two in it. God.
07:15
Case
Wait, wait.
07:16
David
The quilt.
07:17
Sam
Oh, my God. Oh.
07:19
David
Oh. For listeners, it's a cool taz. It's a cool taz. Who's wearing, what is that? A denim vest where the bottom is braided and has pony beads? Is that what I'm seeing?
07:28
Case
Yep.
07:29
Sam
Yeah.
07:29
Case
And flip flops.
07:30
Sam
It's really beautiful, though, because it's got, like, some. It's got flannel cuffs and he's wearing, like, a flannel like, tied bandana and he's crossing his arms. He is. He's gonna breakdance.
07:41
David
I'm having a little trouble even identifying the specific culture of that one. Cause that's a little bit. That's a little Harley Davidson and a little, like, urban. Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, I don't want to dance. I don't want to be around the bush here. When we say urban, we mean it's ripping off Tupac, it's ripping off NWA. It's. It is specifically South Los Angeles fashion and style 1000%.
08:05
Case
Yeah. And I mean, that's. That's the thing. The era that the original space jam came out in, were all primed so hard for this particular thing that we couldn't help but, like, appreciate it. It was the only Looney tunes, like, live action movie of that era. If you don't count who framed Roger Rabbit, which is only tangentially connected. It would be years before we got to Looney tunes back in action, the Brendan Fraser one. So, like, this was, like the Looney Tunes movie, and it was a movie that came out of a very successful line of commercials for Nike using Looney Tunes characters against Michael Jordan. Like, it's. This is a movie that's adapted from commercials. So already were all, like. Like, effectively, commercials for Nike products somehow turned into commercials for the movie.
08:53
Case
So for, like, two years before this movie came out, were getting geared up for it. And then they combined weird real life stuff, like Michael Jordan leaving the bulls, playing baseball, and then coming back and then fictionalizing it in the form of having him fight space invaders and getting his basketball groove back by helping bugs, buddy.
09:14
Sam
Yeah. I don't know if this is me and Rose colored glasses, but I also think that this is the golden age of commercials, because we are forced to watch them. And ads are really, like, ad producers working very hard to make them very polished.
09:28
David
I'm not disagreeing with you on that, because I'm saying this as a person who works in the commercial industry. 90% of what I do is commercial work, and literally 40% of the industry has disappeared over the last four years because of streaming services and the Internet. Like, it's gone. It's gone, and it's not coming back. So I think you're right. I think that was the era where they're like, we're gonna pay $3 million for a commercial, and everyone's going to have seen it and talk about it. People are going to be like, where's the beef? Got milk? Like, they're gonna talk about the catchphrases in real life.
10:04
Sam
Oh, my God. What the what's up era? That was horrible for me. What's up?
10:10
David
You say that was horrible for you? Like, my last name, like, I'm having, like, flashes.
10:15
Sam
Like, I'm going through. I'm going through the violent motions of remembering people just saying it in my face. Oh, no.
10:25
David
My parents were Budweiser toads, and that was really rough for me at that time.
10:32
Case
Yeah, well, I mean, you. You then have gone on to work directly for that company numerous times.
10:36
David
Numerous times.
10:37
Case
Yeah, yeah.
10:38
David
What a life. So, so it seems like, okay, so if I were to summarize this, like, we're kind of getting on this already, which is basically everything that shaped and formed our version of nostalgia was actually just people trying to sell us stuff, right? It was all, it was all economic, all consumer, all engineered that way. I remember, like, being in love with teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And I was like, what's the story behind the turtles? And it was like we had action figures we wanted to sell. I was like, okay. That's it. That's my thing I loved and cared so deeply about is just a way to sell me plastic, okay? And same thing with this. So it seems like maybe this was someone's coke fueled idea that then a writer was assigned to come up with a movie out of it, right?
11:24
David
And, like, maybe they were like, here's the celebrities we got for it now. Now make it fit of. And so the first movie was perhaps, I'm guessing, a joyless experience to assemble. And then 20 years later, they're like, we're gonna do that again.
11:41
Sam
Yeah, well, because also, like, nostalgia is in. So why not cash in on that while also highlighting all our properties, like, all of them, and also tap into the nostalgia of that? Because. Why Austin powers?
11:58
David
Why Austin powers?
11:59
Case
Well, that's the thing. Nostalgia is always in. It's just what you're nostalgic for. Keeps on shifting. And this is 25 years later, it's, let's go and appreciate all the shit that was going on at the time that this first one came out, basically, which includes a lot of cultural references. So if the first one had a lot of nostalgia for probably a little bit more spread out kind of experience, because just there was only so many things that were canonized into sort of the pantheon of this is Americana. You know, like the Looney Tunes cartoons beginning in, like, the thirties and forties weren't, you know, became a thing that our parents generation and then, like, the, like, the gen xers all sort of appreciated as being like, no, this is classic american animation. This is the bedrock of american animation.
12:45
Case
And that was still in play when space Jam came out. And I think that they actually do a disservice by not really having kind of a discussion about how it's not as much like Bugs Bunny is more of an icon than a character in stuff these days. Same for Mickey Mouse, you know, like, who remembers the last time Mickey Mouse was, like, a major character in a property?
13:04
David
Yeah, well, it's funny that you should bring that up, because I do. I agree to that subset. But the Disney corporation has, like, made a lot of moves over the years to keep Mickey Mouse relevant. He's in a bunch of stuff that they make for kids still, right? Whether or not you. You watched it, no reason you should have. The Mickey Mouse Club is a, like, pre k television show that they ran for, like, three or four years that has Mickey Mouse in it. And the same thing with, they made this new Mickey show that was like the Ren and stippy animators made it. So they're trying to age up with that crowd, right? They're trying to age a group up. See? Okay, turtles do the same thing, right? Teenage Ninja Turtles. Every three years, there's a new TMNt, right?
13:43
David
And Looney Tunes just hasn't figured it out because I don't know how. I don't know how much history, you know, of Looney Tunes cartoons, but they tried, what, 2011 through 2015, a new Looney Tunes show that was, like, basically, I think, by the way, very funny. But it was like a living room drama. Like, bugs and daffy live together. Yeah, but, like, it was very absurd, but it was just like a buddy comedy sort of thing. And only now, just like, I'm saying, like, this weekend, I, Kevin Smith, had a Looney Tunes shorts television program come out that's like, it kind of resets the clock pre Chuck Avery. So it's like, original Daffy, where Daffy was actually insane and not surly and grumpy and, like, Bugs was a sociopath and not like, well, he was always a sociopath.
14:35
Case
Yeah, he's always.
14:37
David
When he was a sociopath without reason, when they were more animalistic in their urges and desires and less like, grumpy.
14:48
Case
Human men, but not like lunatics and weird cartoon superheroes, right? Like the ones from the 2004 attempt at reviving the characters.
14:58
David
No, no. Not Luna. Not the suits. No, I'm talking about vintage. I'm talking about where Daffy still has, like, a curvy kind of beak, you know?
15:06
Case
Yeah.
15:10
David
That'S the Daffy.
15:11
Case
The actual Daffy part about Daffy Duck.
15:14
David
Yes. And I will say that these new cartoons, if you do get a chance to see them, are enjoyable because they don't have that much pressure. And you're able to just view them as the same sort of plausible, impossible, surreality comedy with violence thing that the original cartoons were.
15:31
Case
Okay, you see, that is very fair. You're a parent. You have your ear more to the ground in terms of what kind of kids media is coming out, as opposed to me, who is just a child trapped in an adult's body.
15:43
Sam
There's no argument from any of us on that point, right?
15:46
Case
No, no. Like, I like kids stuff, but I want them to be able to say fuck in it.
15:49
David
Like, right. Yeah, yeah. And me too. Me too. If my. If my kids stuff. If Mike, the stuff my kids are watching doesn't say fuck. I put a couple in.
15:59
Sam
Re edit it.
16:00
David
Yeah. I just. I just go, fucked.
16:04
Sam
Alina of Avalar just said fuck, dad.
16:07
David
That's right. But that kind of plays back to what were talking about in the first place, which is like, who is this movie for? And my answer from having watched it with kids is like, it is for people in their thirties who are fucking idiots.
16:23
Case
Fair. Yeah.
16:24
Sam
Yeah.
16:24
David
Like, you have to be in your thirties and also, like, have, like, be so forgiving of media where you're just like, I don't care that it is an unenjoyable slog of experience. I just enjoy seeing the references.
16:37
Case
My experience watching this movie was that once the actual basketball game started, I couldn't pay attention anymore.
16:43
David
They didn't.
16:44
Case
They did not build the actual game. Didn't matter to me at all. The. The Iron giant, King Kong, and all the swarm of Warner properties showing up there was like, that moment of like, okay, that's really fun. And, like, every now and then I was, like, kind of, like, tuning into who was in the background and what weird, someone online described it as feeling like an SNL sketch. And it's like, a bit of that. Like, the choice to have actors playing different actors, like Jim Carrey as the mask, there's an Arnold Schwarzenegger knockoff as Mister Freeze, etcetera, as opposed to doing, like, CGI characters, which would have been appropriate for the setting, made it, like, way more obvious that it's just like, okay, we're just trying to make you think about everything that we own.
17:25
David
Yeah.
17:25
Case
Like, yeah, this is an ad for HBO, Max.
17:29
David
It is a very. That's exactly how I viewed it. This is very. It was just reminding you. But. But also, that was the only thing I found enjoyable about the game was picking out people in the audience. Right. Like that. So many people had that same. They're like, oh, the Hercules. Or like the, you know, oh, there's Godzilla. That's. That was it. That was the. Because the game had no stakes, because you didn't like, okay, what does every movie with a game in it need? Right. It needs, like, people to overcome certain obstacles. LeBron had obstacles he had to overcome. He had to, I don't know, get on board with his kid and forgive him for, or love him for who he was and that he didn't want the same things that LeBron wanted and have that moment of connection.
18:17
David
And I guess it was so weird to me that they're also, like, leBron's thing is that he's no fun at all. That's just not what I think of Ron James.
18:25
Case
Right. Yeah.
18:26
David
Like, Michael Jordan. Sure. Michael Jordan truly is no fun at all.
18:30
Case
But, like, well, I'm sure it's very fun to be Michael Jordan.
18:34
David
I don't know, man. I saw last dance. It seems like it's hell on earth to be as trapped as that guy's head.
18:39
Case
That's fair. He did take that personally.
18:40
David
Yeah. He's gonna listen to this podcast to take it personally. He's gonna come to my house and, like, out podcast me.
18:48
Case
I don't know. I feel like I could enjoy having a conversation with Michael Jordan just because as a degenerate gambler, just like Michael.
18:54
Sam
Jordan, I think that I did not say any of these things. Michael Jordan. Please contact case on Twitter and leave another pass alone. This is in no way reflective of the opinions of the podcast, only of.
19:10
Case
Case a. Michael Jordan and I all of a sudden have beef. I've made it in a way that I never expected to in life.
19:18
David
All he's going to do is he's going to dm you to gamble. He's going to want to bethe want to bet who's the worst gambler? How much is your house? He says to you.
19:31
Case
He'Ll buy the bank that controls my mortgage. And then all of a sudden I'll be kicked out, which is fair, and I would deserve it. I antagonize the beast. That's fair.
19:40
David
So this movie, the game has no real stakes. I don't think I really cared about what anybody, any other players are doing, you know? But I will say this is also a movie that was like, this space jam was so bad that it made me realize the first space jam was bad. It made the first one worse. You know what I mean? Like, it made me re examine both of them, be like, oh, neither of these things are supposed to be enjoyed. And in that way, like, maybe. Like, maybe that. Maybe that we just weren't supposed to do this.
20:09
Sam
Maybe were the real winners all along? Is that what you're saying?
20:12
David
No, I'm saying. I'm saying it's more like a science thing where it's like everyone asked if we could do it. No one asked if we should do it, and so we made another monster.
20:24
Sam
I feel like, though, I don't think that the gameplay itself was important. I think that it was, like, supposed to be gags and just be comedy and just be funny. And I think that the general thing was like. And you see this a lot in, like, my grandfather watches a lot of Disney property. He's 93, but I. That's what he watches. So unfortunately, I know a lot, even though I don't have a child. So I feel like you see this, where the focus for this movie is not on the game itself, but the tension lies within the relationship between LeBron and his son. So his son has to kind of get over this idea that he's not enough, and LeBron has to kind of support him, and the rest is all comedy dressing around it.
21:14
Sam
Whether or not that's good or bad, I don't know. It doesn't really matter, because I don't think the point of the game is for you to be excited about the game. I think the point of the game is the lessons we learn along the way.
21:26
Case
Well, sure. And I think that moral between LeBron and his son is actually pretty good. Like, I think that what's going on there is strong. Like, I think that this is a better movie than the first space jam, at least in terms of what the main character, like, the arc that the main characters go through and where they come out of at the end. It's just that I also think that the. The fun in quotes, details about this movie have way less of a theme to them and are just way more of, like, an assault on my senses. And at the end of it all, I was like, oh, man, that was a lot. It was a big tableau of references, and it wasn't all.
22:08
Case
It didn't feel like all part of a coherent thing, and it didn't feel like a fun romp going from set piece to set piece. It was just like, everything here.
22:18
David
I keep using this phrase that an assignment. A lot of things felt like an assignment. Here are your Looney Tunes. Here's the properties that you must fit the Looney tunes into. We need to see them hit these sort. Here's a list. Pick the ones on this list that you want. But these are the ones we have to see and where we need to see them. And so it didn't come from like, oh, wouldn't it? Nobody was like, I'm dreaming of this scene where Bugs Bunny is in this certain place doing this certain thing or Daffy Duck is here. It was more like, all right, what do we think could work and where do we think it could work? And let's work it out from there.
22:52
David
Let's solve a problem as opposed to, like, let's pursue a passion or a joy or, like, a thing we want to write.
22:58
Case
Yeah.
22:58
Sam
Yeah.
22:59
Case
Actually, on that note, though, the fact that the first place they go after they go to, like, quote unquote Looney Tunes world, going to, like, a DC comics world, which is infused with Warner Bros. Characters felt also like a nineties throwback because there was, like, a, like, a big marketing push for, like, McDonald's tie in happy meals that had, like, the Flash or, like, taz is the Flash and Batman is, or Daffy as Batman and so forth. Like, there was this, like, those kind of convergences had happened in the nineties. And I thought that was the callback that they were going for to begin with right there.
23:31
Sam
Yeah, I did too. I was like, oh, I think this is because. Not only because, like, let's be honest, that's the other property they're pushing right now. I mean, because this is, again, in the spirit of the first space jam. This is one long commercial.
23:46
David
Yeah.
23:47
Sam
With a better storyline than the first space jam. But, like, literally, like, I thought I was like, oh, yeah. Because I definitely. I had some of those toys, happy meals.
23:59
David
Speaking on the commercial thing, knowing that it's a commercial is not bad at all. I like, whenever I have to, like, write a script, I have to. I try to think about, like, what are my comps? What are other things that were successful in that space? And there are movies out there that are just a commercial. They're just a commercial for a kid's toy. And they're fun. They're so much fun. First thing I think of, and I thought of it while I was watching this, which is the Lego movie. The Lego movie couldn't be more of a commercial. Yeah, but it's fun.
24:30
Case
I kept comparing it, actually, when I was watching this movie, because, like, that's. That is doing the same basic thing of having so much fucking stuff to look at, right? And making it work, right?
24:40
David
But it's guided by a certain thesis, right? The Lego movies, guided by a single thesis, which is everything should feel like play. It should feel like imagination. It should feel like kids playing with toys. So, yeah, of course Batman's there, and he's with a pirate that's made out of robot parts. And he's there with, like, a little kitten that can turn into anything. Like, that's the way a kid plays. There's no guiding philosophy behind space jam to make it fun. The Looney tunes are like an afterthought. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, they're there, but, like, what's their inherent nature that makes them fun? None of them were doing the stuff that they do that make them fun. I mean, they were doing bits and stuff, but, like, they weren't enjoying them. You know what I mean? Like, bugs loves fucking with Elmer.
25:24
David
You know? Like, he loves that stuff in the cartoons. He loves being a little sociopath. And here he was doing it to, like, win a game, you know? Nobody was enjoying themselves. The whole. The most enjoyment that any character had being a sociopath. Was that, like, time one well or. No, I mean, algae rhythm, right? Which, by the way, Don Cheadle, they're just. They're like, don, do whatever you want. And he was like, okay, I'm not sure if this is right. I'm gonna just go for it. Because they don't really understand this character. And they're like, go for it. And then they kept everything he did in the movie.
25:56
Sam
I actually feel like he's the only person that understood the assignment, though. I actually liked everything he did. Like, honestly, like, he's the only person who was in the movie that I actually wanted to watch. And I loved his maniac, self absorbed computer that had a self esteem issue, clearly, and needed reassurance from the world and didn't get it, and then went and all the way the other way. I thought that he completely understood. And he had some really great moments, including when he said really mean things to the kid and then basically was just fell over, not on the bench, which actually got a giggle out of me. And he was just like, okay, everybody just needs to move over, make some room so we can all sit on the bench. Like, it was just like a lovely kind of switch on that.
26:45
David
So I should be super clear. Don Cheadle's, a genius. And all that was really fun. The. In the edit, you. You should use some of it. Do you know what I mean? Like, not all of it. Not everything Don Cheadle did. Right. Like, he's gonna give you all that stuff, and then you have an obligation to pick the most entertaining portions of that and then deliver a movie that is not 2 hours long.
27:06
Case
Yeah, the. The movie is just way too long, and there's too much stuff going on for it to be assaulting on this.
27:12
David
That's what I mean by Lego comparison is that, like, it's like, just go do the thing. That's fun. Don't spend all this time. I mean, I'm a guy that overwrites things. And there was, like, so much plot. There was so much, like, there's.
27:22
Sam
So they were making up from space jam one they were trying to make up. There is no plot. I'm sorry. The aliens don't make sense. None of that makes sense. It's. It's bad. I rewatched it. It's bad.
27:37
David
Like, when they. When you could. It doesn't really matter. Like, when they get on the planet. Toon planet. Because there's planets, and we have to explain that there's planets in this universe. I don't know why I. I don't know why we need to explain that.
27:48
Case
They, weirdly, are holding onto a space thing even though it's actually now a cyberspace jam.
27:53
David
Yeah, absolutely. That's what it is. Wow. Okay. Not necessary. And when they get to the toon planet and all the toons are gone, they have to come up with this thing. And it's like, well, Ali g came here and convinced them to leave. Because I know that they're trying to build some sort of allegory between what happened with bugs and the toons and LeBron and his son, is that Ali G showed up and was away. Except they're not gonna invest any time in that. Like, to really, like, flesh out what that would. Like. There's no moment when Granny's like, I'm sorry that I believed in Ali G. Like, that's not gonna happen. You just wanna see them through those properties. Okay, just go ahead. And as soon as he rises on the planet. Where is everybody?
28:30
David
It's like, oh, we didn't have enough money to animate the whole world. Okay, whatever. I don't care what the answers. Just move on to the next thing faster. We don't need five shots when two shots would work.
28:43
Case
Yeah. I kept asking myself throughout this whole movie. Why the Looney Tunes are there?
28:49
David
Yes.
28:49
Case
Outside of it being a sequel to Space Jam one. Sure. He arrives there first to meet the bugs, and then he's like, we should go recruit all the important characters from different properties and form a union of this all Justice League, if you will, to play basketball against the algorithm. And that could have been fine by itself, but it's weirdly guided into being a Looney tunes thing kind of by habit, and that just sort of feels like more of it. Like, the movie is a metaphor for itself to the point where LeBron even says, this is a dumb idea, when the idea of being inserted into, like, all these properties is presented to him. Seriously? In a pitch meeting at the top of the movie.
29:38
Sam
Yeah. Oh, the movie totally mocks itself several times. Like, there are several times where the movie's like. Like, LeBron actually makes a joke about how, like, sports stars should not be acting, that it's a terrible idea. Like, there are definitely lots of fourth wall breaking, which actually, bugs bunny breaking the fourth wall makes a lot of sense. And he does that quite a few times. But, yeah, the movie is aware this is a bad idea, which might be even more insulting to the viewers.
30:07
David
Well, okay, so that gets into this thing that I see a lot of, and I'm an armchair quarterback here. I don't know what actually happened over there. Right. But I'm getting this. I get the sense that what you have is, like, people that are like, yeah, let's go meta. Let's go ahead and acknowledge these things. Except you have this stable of properties that could still be making them money. And the people that made those properties are sensitive about the properties that they made. And HBO Max, which this is just an advertisement for. It needs to be in business with those people there still. Like, so I do work with Netflix, and part of the things that I do with Netflix is that they want to take Netflix properties and they want to promote them through comedy.
30:50
David
But you have to be insanely careful about how you talk about the Netflix properties in relationship to comedy, because they don't want anything to come across as even remotely disparaging about their own properties. Not because they don't have a sense of humor, but because the people that made those properties are going to be like, hey, I saw the thing. You posted Netflix. What the hell? You made fun of my show. And so it's like, here's a person that wants to make funny jokes and be self referential, and then here's the executives and lawyers at Wbdenhe being like, no to most of it. You're allowed to have.
31:26
David
You're allowed to have the Matrix, but you can't show Neo and you can't show Morpheus, and you can't interact with any of those characters because we're not going to pay the actor and we don't have consent or whatever. It's just like trying to make an enjoyable experience that's referential to these properties with your hands tied behind your back. No actors. Right. You didn't see any. You didn't see Denarius Targaryen, you know? Right. You don't.
31:50
Sam
No, that was spaghorn leghorn.
31:52
David
Right. So you see all the things that are, like, unownable. Right. Like, you don't see.
31:58
Sam
Yeah. Cause how could you own a dragon? I mean, like, it's just a random dragon can dry it anyway. I mean, people get the reference anyway.
32:05
Case
Yeah. Because, like, in a world with, like, an infinite budget, this is the perfect time to try to break out all that, like, face masking kind of technology that we've been developing over the years, deepfake the shit out of it, and put all the recognizable people. But instead, it's obnoxiously not those people in every scene that we have for them, which is why the agent leans over at one point and it's like, oh, yeah, you're doing another matrix thing. And I can tell because you've done so many matrix things at this point, but you're just a guy in a suit with sunglasses right now.
32:35
David
So the whole montage of getting the gang together is toothless, you know what I mean? Because there's no, like, jokes with the actual actors or anything like that. I like, I don't understand why they didn't just have it that the Looney Tunes were all together already. I would have done them. Now we're getting into my pitch for how I would have fixed the show, but I would have done the MacGruber thing. Go ahead and get that team of really cool characters from the universe and then have them destroyed somehow and have to use the Looney Tunes.
33:02
Case
That's not a bad thought. I think we're all kind of close to getting into our pitch territories. Like, I'm having a really hard time not going into, like, things that should be improved on it.
33:12
Sam
This episode is going to be shorter than this movie.
33:18
Case
Yes, it should be. It should because this movie was too long. I don't know. Before we take a break and hear from some of the other great shows on this network, is there anything else that we that, like, stood out about the movie that isn't really, like a fix or a thing we want to really, like, promote. Like, you know, I thought the animation overall looked fine. I've seen some people kind of complain about it. I thought it looked pretty good for, like, the style of movie that they're going for. And then the CG models, I thought overall look pretty good. Like, yeah, I think we've learned our lesson from, like, the Sonic the Hedgehog fiasco in general there. Like, the characters looked appropriately both, like, furry, but at the same time, like their cartoon selves. Like, those overall worked really well.
34:02
Sam
I think there were a couple, like, smatterings of one liners that worked pretty okay. And I think that the characters were fairly true to themselves, like, in terms of the Looney tunes being like themselves, at least like themselves from previous space jams. I think they kind of made speedy Gonzalez a little more subtle, which I appreciated, a little less heavier on the accent and the racism. And so they kind of dulled that down, but still had him there, like, oh, he's just part of the universe. I actually do like that King Kong got insulted by Don Cheadle. I liked that little hurrumph because I just thought it was adorable. It didn't matter, but it made me chuckle. And, you know, it was. I do.
34:48
Sam
Also, I liked when Bugs Bunny decided to be the old timey, you know, kind of announcer and everything kind of went black and white. I thought that was like a cool little nod to the general, used to be black and white kind of stuff. And. Yeah, there's a, Yeah, we at least said a couple of positive things.
35:07
David
I I have plenty of positive things to say about. First of all, the King Kong reference, I would have. I would have loved if there's a thing I always get when it's like, when you reference something that's really, like, bad, not bad, but, like, he's referencing training day with King Kong, right?
35:20
Case
Yeah.
35:21
David
Like, if you also have to follow it up with an explanation. If you're like, I'm talking about. Yeah, the man who made Ethan Hawke smoke cracked in training day. Like, if you have to say it.
35:35
Case
It'S like I'm actually going close to where I am as part of my pitch.
35:41
David
I remember I had a friend who worked at Sesame street and they were doing a thing about a box, like something in a box with Cookie bobster. And at one point, I think it was Zach Braff actually said, like, what's in the box? And it's a reference to seven.
35:57
Sam
Yeah.
35:59
David
I would love if in necessity, suit, they're like, you know, like Gwyneth Paltrow's head. They had to acknowledge their sources.
36:12
Sam
Gotta be careful with those sources.
36:14
David
I just want to concur that the animation was great. I thought the integration with the old stuff was great. Like, the clips, I think the actual animation integration felt really good. I thought the animation looked expensive, too. I thought, like, the tunes of it made me. I was like, oh, this is fun. The Toon planet, you know, I thought all that was really good. I also thought that the villains in this, they gave a lot more thought to them and how they would. I'm talking about the bad players. You know, the bad. Yeah, the Goon squad.
36:40
Case
The goon squad.
36:41
Sam
Yeah, the Goon squad.
36:43
David
They built them off of the nicknames that the characters actually had, or, like, something like, about the actual basketball players they're based on, which is more than they did in the first space jam. And. And though I wasn't. So, like, if you're a fan of the NBA, you're kind of a fan of the Goon squad. They, like, made them pretty cool, and then they, like, made the way they played come from their powers, and I thought that was interesting and fun.
37:06
Sam
Yeah, I thought that was fun, too. I also thought that, like, you know, LeBron tried. I don't think that he was, like. I didn't think he was, like, so terrible also. I feel like I want to go back. No, I actually don't want to rewatch it, but if I did ever watch it, I would do a drinking game where I would take a shot every time he made a confused face, because I think that I would have a lot of fun at the end of it because he was confused a lot of the time. Yeah.
37:32
Case
To be fair, we all would be if were thrust into that circumstance.
37:36
David
That's true. That's true. You just need one scene where LeBron loses. It was just like, what the. What is happening? Just crying and screaming.
37:44
Sam
Yeah, I thought the kid was good.
37:47
David
Oh, the kid was a pretty good actor.
37:49
Sam
Yeah.
37:50
David
Have you seen trainwrecked with LeBron in it? That was the Amy Schumer movie.
37:56
Case
The Amy Schumer movie, yeah.
37:57
David
He's just very funny in that.
37:59
Case
Yeah.
38:00
David
I mean, it's. Because he's playing a version of LeBron James in it, and that's what's funny about it.
38:04
Sam
Yeah, but he's got, like, a certain amount of timing. It's, you know, it's fine. Like, he shows up, he knows his lines. He delivers them. Okay, enough.
38:16
David
You guys should also know that I am a fan of the NBA, and I'm a fan of basketball, and I am a. This is a controversial statement within the NBA. I'm a massive fan of LeBron James. I'm a. I think he's one of the best basketball players of all time, but also one of the best humans of all time, which is a big difference from Jordan, in my opinion. And so I have a big soft spot for him. So even if he just makes the minimum effort as an actor, I'm like, and now you do this, too, LeBron.
38:44
Sam
I actually do like him as a person. You know, just on a fair, you know, kind of thing. I hate basketball specifically cause I hate the sound that sneakers make on a court. So I can't watch basketball. I actually really hate that squeaking.
38:59
David
But what if you watch basketball without the sound?
39:04
Sam
It weirds me out. I don't know why. I feel like the sound should be there, and then I turn on the sound, and then I get upset at the sound, so I just don't want to.
39:12
Case
So you muted, and then it feels weird, and then you turn back on. It's a vicious cycle right there.
39:16
Sam
Right. So it's just better for me to just stay away from it, from basketball in general.
39:21
Case
But. But I do think that one thing we just haven't said out loud is that it makes so much sense to do this with LeBron.
39:28
David
Oh, yeah.
39:29
Case
Is the modern goat, like, and that. That is the debate that is going on currently of, like, is he truly the actual goat? Like, is he truly the greatest of all time? Like, surpassing Jordan? And their. Is. There is conversation about that this movie.
39:48
David
Wouldn'T exist if LeBron James didn't exist.
39:50
Case
Right.
39:50
David
He's a spiritual success. He's number 20. He's the same number. He's number 23. Same number as Jordan. He's. He's in every. Like he was. And so many beats of his story as a. As a. An athlete has followed Jordan. So he's been getting those comparisons the day he entered the league, you know? So I think that it's, like, a completely natural comparison to make. I think I. They also didn't play at the same time. Right. Like, when was LeBron drafted? I don't know. I think they just missed each other. So it's almost like, literally like basketball reincarnation, this. I don't think that there's another basketball player they would have tried to do this with if LeBron never existed.
40:26
Case
No, absolutely not. And last thing, just speaking of Jordan, I thought it was a kind of a cute joke with Michael B. Jordan. Like, I think that was appropriate. Like, you know, that Michael Jordan.
40:36
Sam
My name is Michael A.
40:40
Case
Wouldn't deign to be in this movie. And I'm calling you out, Michael. But Michael B. Jordan, my buddy. Yeah, Michael, my buddy Jordan absolutely would. And I think it worked really well.
40:52
Sam
Yeah. As Daffy said, they were waiting for Michael A. Jordan and they got Michael B. Jordan and said other people.
40:59
David
I've heard other people also say it was a cute joke.
41:01
Case
Yeah, yeah, it was fine. I mean, like, you knew either they were going to get a Jordan or that they were going to make a call out to it. And I was happy with the way they handled it. The fanfare, everything leading up to it.
41:13
David
Perfect.
41:14
Case
It was good.
41:14
Sam
I.
41:15
David
One thing that kind of bothered me about the whole thing is that they. I. No one's gonna agree with me on this. I think they did not reference the first movie enough.
41:26
Case
I agree.
41:27
David
One person's immediately gonna agree with me on this.
41:33
Sam
Yeah. Okay.
41:34
David
All right. I'm gonna go way out here, and I'm gonna take a shot for the fences. You should be nice to see.
41:40
Case
And I'm immediately gonna hop up and, like, say, no, sir.
41:44
David
No. But I. Because, like, I think that should have been what it was kind of predicated upon. And instead of, like, there just was a moment where he's like, oh, you want me to play in a basketball game? This sounds familiar. And bugs, like, looks at the camera and LeBron says, who are you talking to? Which, like, the joke kind of falls a little flat there. So he's talking to us, LeBron, get on board. Like, you should also break the fourth wall.
42:07
Case
But can you break the fourth wall when you are in, like, literally an entertainment space? It's nothing.
42:12
David
Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah.
42:15
Case
Like, he understands. He's in the world of the cartoons that he has watched.
42:19
David
You know, I don't envy writing this. I will say it's fair. Yeah.
42:23
Case
You don't envy it. And yet you force us to try to take another crack at the script.
42:28
David
That's right. That's right. Well, I will say the reason I even suggested in the first place is that there's not a lot of movies that while I watch it, I start to fix it in my head. Normally, I just go, I didn't like that. Or I just. Or I'm like, I really like that. And then I move on with my life. I don't go, oh, why didn't they just do this? And this is one that had a lot of. A lot of how they could have cleaned it up.
42:49
Case
Well, I can't wait to hear that.
42:51
David
Great.
42:52
Case
I think we should get to pitches then. But before we do, we should probably hear from one of the other great shows on our network.
43:01
David
Hey.
43:02
Case
Oh, hey, Jeff.
43:02
David
What's going on, guys?
43:03
Case
Oh, you know, talking about Superman.
43:06
David
Oh, cool. I could talk about Superman.
43:08
Case
I could talk some more about Superman.
43:11
David
We know.
43:11
Case
I'll bet a few people would want to get in on this.
43:14
David
I'm down. You know it. That sounds like fun. I'll do it.
43:17
Case
Cool. Let's do it. We can call the show men of.
43:19
David
Steel, and you can find it@certainpov.com or wherever you get your podcasts.
43:25
Case
Yay. And we're back.
43:29
David
All right. What an ad.
43:31
Case
Yeah. Great stuff that we're putting out there.
43:34
Sam
Can't wait to listen, honestly.
43:36
Case
Yeah.
43:36
Sam
Probably better than space jam and space jam two.
43:39
Case
The ads that we like for our network are definitely a better ad than the ad that this is for HBO Max. So let's.
43:50
David
Considerably less expensive. Considerably, considerably so ROI.
43:55
Case
This might have been recorded on someone's iPhone.
43:56
Sam
I kind of forgot that Austin Powers existed. So, I mean, they did a good job reminding me that it did.
44:03
David
And now that you're breaking it up, it did make me want to go back and rewatch the Matrix.
44:07
Sam
You see? Maybe it did work on some level. This is the diabolical thing, right? Make the thing that people nostalgically want to watch. Don't worry about whether it's good or not. It doesn't matter because it's one long commercial.
44:20
David
You're describing five transformer movies.
44:23
Case
True.
44:24
David
I mean, absolutely. Right. Like, who cares? Like, write a check for Michael Bay. Let him do whatever he wants to do. And then they look at the numbers coming back. They go, okay, great. Write him the check again. Let's do it again.
44:34
Sam
Blow it all up.
44:35
David
I don't want to bring the. All right, I'll bring it up. I'll bring it up real quick because I just. It's one of those things that gets. Is stuck in my craw, and I just can't. I can't wrap my head around it. In Transformers, I want to say it's revenge of the father. It's the first one with Mark Wahlberg in it. I watched that movie. I don't know why I watched it. It's, like, not a movie. I don't enjoy Michael Bay movies, and I'm certainly not going to start late in the franchise for the Transformers. But for some reason, I watched it. And while I was watching it, and this was, like, what, five years ago? Now there's this scene in it where Mark Wahlberg is like, to a guy, like, I'm gonna arrest you.
45:11
David
Cause you're dating my daughter and she's underage and you're over it. She's 17, you're 19. And then the guy explains the Romeo and Juliet laws in Texas where they live, which is, like, basically, like, we had a pre existing, pre juvenile relationship, which means, like, I was not 18 at the time that our relationship started. So we're protected under statutory rape laws in Texas. And then the guy. And this happens in the movie, right?
45:40
Case
Think, yep, I know what you're about.
45:41
David
Then the guy pulls out a laminated copy of the law. I'm dead serious. And holds it to the camera so that the text is legible to the camera and, like, lets us at home read it. I have no idea why they didn't just make the daughter 18, other than the fact that, like, Michael Bay was like, you know, I got into this fight about statutory rape, and I'm just gonna include this in my movie. And you gotta think, like, if it's, like, a $250 million budget for that movie and just price per minute, you're. You're looking at over a million dollars spent to put that in that movie. Do you know what I mean? Like, if you break down the per minute.
46:20
Case
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Arguably, it could have been a producer or someone who was like, I need to be in the clear. Can you. Can you make sure that everyone's like, cool?
46:28
David
That's a much more generous way to do it. Whereas he was like, fine, I'll put this in to really make it very clear. But, like, God damn it, just make her 18.
46:36
Sam
Yeah.
46:37
David
It's so strange. Nothing like that in space jam. A new legacy, I gotta say that.
46:42
Case
No, fortunately, nothing like that.
46:44
Sam
Oh, my God. Cuz, I mean, even if we're not sure if it's four children, definitely parents are letting their children watch it.
46:51
David
That's right.
46:52
Case
While it doesn't have anything quite so offensive as trying to justify statutory rape, it certainly has a lot of problems that we've spent an hour talking about up until this point. So, Dave, you brought this to the table. Would you like to take the first crack?
47:07
David
I want to apologize for making your podcast unlistenable. Like, people are like, wait, why is there a trigger warning on this space Jam podcast? Who ruined the episode? And my answer is, Michael Bay.
47:20
Sam
That should always be the answer.
47:22
David
Yeah. Yeah. If you want to know who came in and ruined this property, it was Michael Bay. Yeah. Okay. What can we do to make it better? I think we're all going to say the same thing, which is like, you got to tighten at least 40 minutes out of this runtime, right? 90 minutes should be the max runtime on something like this. It's unforgivable otherwise. And it should move and it should clip and every single joke throughout falls flat because they're using like four or five shots when they could use one. Right. I'll usually, I'll use a quick example. They got to get off the tomb planet. How are they going to do it?
47:56
David
The way they're going to do it is Bugs Bunny takes a flag and says, I claim this in the name of Earth, which he knows is going to make Marvin the Martian come down. So he plants that, then he looks up to the sky and then they hear the sound, and then they see a shadow, and then they see the ship, and then they see Marvin on the ship, and then it cuts back to bugs, who wiggles his eyes. And then the ship comes down and then the doors open up and there's a bit with the doors opening up. That's so many shots. That's so many. And I'm so far ahead of it already. This movie just does that over and over and over again. Like, you get way ahead of it constantly. Am I right? Like, did you guys feel that?
48:34
Sam
Absolutely.
48:35
David
Yeah. And so, like, almost all the callbacks.
48:37
Case
They have in this are like, are very on the nose. And, you know, it's coming like, especially on the Toon planet, there's lots of ones where it's like, here's a famous gag we're going to reference and then we're gonna wait 5 seconds and continue to reference it or make it another allusion to it.
48:51
David
That's it. You gotta get in, you gotta get out, you know, and that's what I was talking about with the plot being, like, really contrived and, like, just doing a lot of work to make, to just explain and re explain it. Like, all I need to know is that this is a crazy AI who's mad. You know, like, all that. Like, just. It could be way more condensed. We could just get to the fun. That's the thing. I get to the fun is the mantra, right? And that's where the Lego movie succeeds in a movie like this fails, right? The Lego movie. What makes it fun? What makes it fun? Is this sense of, like, a bunch of different properties and stuff just smashed together and having the same sort of fun in different ways in different manifestations?
49:37
David
This should have felt like that it should have been a bunch of properties mashed together in the same sort of fun. They're trying too much to homage the shooting style of certain movies instead of just, like, what would be the most fun thing for a Looney tune to do in this world? Am I wrong about. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I. Because, like, I'm also trying to diagnose, like, something that has, like, ten different types of problems.
49:57
Sam
Yeah.
49:59
Case
And try to, like, have the clearest cut. Here's how you fix it, kind of.
50:03
David
I'm also hearing all of the, like, okay, this is the only clip that we got cleared from Mad Max, and we cannot use the main guy from. We can't use Tom Hardy's face at all in Mad Max. And, you know, we're only allowed to use 7 seconds because that's all the budget we have for animation. So how can you establish wile E. Coyote in 7 seconds? That's the problem, is that I'm thinking about this stuff, watching it, which means they, like, totally biffed their job that I'm, like, sitting there thinking, like, wow, this looks like it was really hard for them to make. So, yeah, tighten the hell out of that. And then the other thing is, like, what were talking about, like, why are the tunes in it? Like, let tunes be tunes in a real way.
50:40
David
Like, I'm not seeing any fun had by the tunes, like, in the gameplay, even. They're like, they want to do well and they want to play well. No, they should, like, want to blow up, you know, Clay Thompson or what's wet fire is his name in this. Like. Like, right, let's have them. Let's have them do those bits and play those out, and instead of, like, just play. But this was actually a problem with the first space jam, too.
51:07
Sam
Yeah.
51:08
David
Is that the vignettes weren't actually fun. So if they're not gonna be fun, at least don't abuse our time. Which the first space jam, which all three of us agree is a worst movie, is a shorter movie, which, by virtue, kind of makes it a better.
51:19
Sam
Movie by the transient properties of. I didn't have to watch it as long.
51:25
David
The best thing that came out of space.
51:27
Case
That's fair, though.
51:28
David
What's the best thing that came out of Space Jam? One. And I don't know if you guys will agree with me on this, but.
51:33
Case
Lola Bunny, probably in terms of, like, pop culture appeal.
51:36
David
That's kind of actually, my point is, like, merchandise and aesthetic.
51:41
Sam
Yeah.
51:42
David
Space Jam is an aesthetic. Right. It's like, it's purple, black, neon green, mid nineties, plasticky, rubbery fun. And I. And so that's what this movie had a chance at. Oh, and also, I probably would have changed the video game stuff because, like, looney Tunes, we have, like, the shared cultural language of what happens in a Looney Tunes cartoon. Right. But we don't have, like, that kind of fun with, like, this manufactured basketball video game. Like, we kind of recognize power ups and stuff like that. But, like, is a power up nearly as much fun as, like, a black hole that you could drive a train through? Do you know what I mean?
52:21
Case
Yeah.
52:21
David
Like, the video game stuff wasn't fun.
52:24
Case
Right. It just felt kind of overwhelming and also not, like, necessarily what video games are like today.
52:29
David
No. Right.
52:30
Case
Like, you know, it felt like NBA jam to a certain degree with, like, the style points and so forth, although even that's more realistic to it. Like, there. There were a lot of just, like, oh, it, like, here's Tron style or reboot style, like big graphical explosions and so forth. Or maybe it's like, fortnite, I guess, would be, like, the most, like, modern game that it is kind of, like, in terms of aesthetics, but that game is not a basketball game.
52:52
Sam
Well, I didn't. I didn't mind the game so much, but I felt like it needed to be cleaned up a little bit because it kind of felt like, you know that meme where Steve Buscemi is standing there and he's like, you know, in high school closing, hello, teens. It kind of just felt like he made that game for the kids, for the children's. Like, this is what the children's are interested in. Right, right. But I don't know if I necessarily minded it. I just feel like it wasn't counterbalanced enough by the Looney Tunes sight gags. Like, like, it was really great to get, like, the train running someone over and going through a tunnel kind of thing. But that was so fast. That was so fast. That wasn't even like, that's a traditional gag.
53:38
Sam
And that was, like, one of many gags that they did. And it was like, the one of the only, like, super, like, old timey, old school gags that they did. They didn't even have anyone run into a wall, like, thinking that it was something else and it was, like, painted. That's old school Looney tunes.
53:57
David
Yeah.
53:57
Case
It should have been a contrast of the Looney Tunes versus the video game style so that you could have had, like, this weird, frenetic kind of world. And then the Looney tunes, it's like, well, but let's show the real level of frenetic detail.
54:07
Sam
Yeah. You could have even had, which would have been kind of cool, is like, have them pull one of the discs through a black hole and, like, take it from someone else, from out, from under someone else. Right? Like, bugs always would dig into the ground and kind of pop up in places and set traps for people. So why wouldn't he do that here? Like, you know what I mean? Like, there's so many things, like, looney tunes can break the rules of reality. Right? That's the whole point of them. That's why they're loony. And so you could have had them kind of do that more so in the game, like, show, like, how they are cool just with their normal things. And honestly, like, I know guns are bad, but Yosemite Sam should have had at least a water gun.
54:52
Sam
It would have been fun to have him shoot someone in the face with a water gun. You don't have to use bullets. Like, he doesn't have to. He can still be himself, you know?
55:02
David
Well, I'll be the one to say it. They should have made Yosemite Sam a QAnon person. They should have gone full queue with Yosemite Sam. We would have recognized it. We would have understood them. That's where they should have gone with it. Just a moment. Where Yosemite Sam was like, I've got an article. I want you. I got a YouTube video I need to show you. Just that. Just that much.
55:23
Sam
Do you know how much your government's lying to you?
55:26
David
I do a lot of my own research.
55:29
Sam
I know what the goons really are.
55:31
David
That's all. I'm not saying. Make them say anything political to say stuff like that.
55:36
Case
Oh, man. All right, I'm gonna. I'm gonna move us along on this.
55:41
David
01:00 a.m. I gonna anger the cue segment of your viewership.
55:47
Case
No, I just, like, I. I came here to have a loony time and not vent about the state of the world. Okay, wait, sorry. So, Sam, if you were taking a bat at this one, where would you start in terms of your pitch?
56:07
Sam
I would definitely tighten it up. I actually would. I really liked the way it started. It's a little weird, you know, they decided that Lebron was no fun because as a child, he was taught that he couldn't have fun, which is, you know, let's unpack that trauma. But, you know, I get it. And so, like, I actually liked the beginning. It was, you know, nice and kind of. I'd leave that alone, but I. Yeah.
56:36
Case
It'S a callback to the first one with, like, the I believe I can fly stuff, which.
56:39
Sam
Yeah, exactly. And they use actually, some of the older music. Like, they actually used some of the music that was, like, in the original movies. That was actually a nice callback, you know, like, kind of, like that kind of thing. Then I would basically kind of have bugs. Have, like, one moment with one of the people that he. Like, one of the people he brings back onto his team just to establish that he's sorry or whatever happened to have the tunes fall out. But then I would kind of Muppet movie, the original Muppet movie, kind of get them all on board. Just like a really fast vignette. Like pulling people out. No, no. Like, lines. You can still have them in the sections, but just.
57:22
David
What a great reference.
57:24
Sam
Yeah, just pull them out. Just like, you know, like, have one moment. Him and Daffy, especially because him and Daffy generally have that, you know, the most tension, especially in the older cartoons and just. Or in the newer, older cartoons. Oh, my God. And then you just have them have that kind of tension and you have bug kind of just be like, we've got to help save this kid. Come on. Daft. And Daft can put his pride aside and then they can get the gang together and I just cue moving on along. Or the Warner brothers version of that. Right. So just kind of have everyone come together and then have them get with LeBron and have them kind of have a difference of opinion on what the team could be.
58:05
Sam
You can still do that, but literally jump straight into the game after that. Like, cut all the rest of it. You can still have, like. You can still have the moments of, like, whatever. I'll even leave after the. The move it on along Muppets vignette song. You can still leave in the Lola Bunny thing because she was essential to space Jam one. She was introduced there. Like, that's kind of. She's very branded, and we know that this is a reference to the Wonder Woman movie they just released. Fine, I get it. It's a commercial. You can leave that in everything else. Cut it. Although, please do keep Paul. Is his name Peter? Peter or Paul? I don't know. Basically Don Cheadle's little friend. I like him. He doesn't have to be a lot, but he is very cute, and I think that he's adorable.
59:00
Sam
So I wouldn't touch too much of him. But I would definitely, like, narrowed some of that stuff down. And I'd make the meeting at Warner brothers shorter. You know, just cut out a couple of jokes. There's, like, a little too much screen time there. It's not really needed. And then just jump into the game. Jump into the game. Make the game shorter. So pick and choose which of the most, like, they used the time. Actually, I didn't mind the fact that they used the time loop dude twice. Only because Granny got to kind of show off later on. But make it count. Don't make that first one so long. You don't have to make it as long as you did. Like, that gag went on forever.
59:46
David
Like, do you think there's a law now that you have to have at least one slow mo time scene in every movie?
59:52
Sam
There is a possibility.
59:54
Case
It is. If you're gonna make a lot of matrix references.
59:57
David
I mean, I'm talking about the guy on the tennis court or. On the tennis court. What. What sport would they play in this? The guy. The basketball court with the time.
01:00:06
Case
No, no, I know who you're talking about. I'm just saying, like, they. They wanted to play up those kind of sequences right there. But, yeah, sure. Like, it's just.
01:00:12
Sam
They did it twice, right?
01:00:13
Case
The flash in Justice League and the.
01:00:16
David
Flash of Justice League and Quicksilver and X Men and Sonic the Hedgehog. It's like they all need one where super fast, so.
01:00:24
Sam
And to do it twice, like, I, you know, like, I don't know if it was really needed. Like, I mean, I guess once you could show his ability, but I would cut that first one down so that you could be like, oh, you. He's crazy. Like, he can, like, play with time. Like, he's. He can slow down the roadrunner. Oh, that's crazy. You know, and then have Granny outsmart him. That's fine, because that ties in. But it's. That first thing was too long. So I think, like, a huge overhaul of the last basketball, just the whole tournament, and just pick and choose and then get Zanier. Get Zanier.
01:01:01
David
Can I just tell you. And I'm just saying, I'm just. I'm not correcting you. I'm just letting you know this. It wasn't a tournament. This is how I felt, too. It was one game that lasted an hour of the movie.
01:01:11
Sam
It's true. You're right. And it's super long. There is no reason for this game to be that long, especially when there wasn't any zaniness.
01:01:22
David
I.
01:01:22
Sam
The part, the half time, you know them in the locker room. Fine. You always need something to cheer you up. The Michael Jordan joke can say, great, but the first half, just have them. Just like, have a couple of things happen with the basketball players or one or two, have them be losing already. Have a majority of them being the first. Like the third quarter, right. Just cut the first. Like, after the first, they're down by a thousand points. Like, just demoralize kind of thing. And then the third, and then have them come back in the fourth, which that's. That's the extra drama right. Right there.
01:02:03
David
Can I ask you a question?
01:02:04
Sam
Yeah.
01:02:05
David
Which I agree with everything you're saying. Do you think also, what did you think about LeBron's wife and other son being sucked into the game, too?
01:02:16
Sam
I think that it upped the stakes for LeBron because his whole family would have been trapped in the game. So I don't know if I hated it completely. Like, oh, crap. Like, my. Like, now my whole family is stuck in this universe. Like, I'm not just losing out on all these thousands of people that tuned into the live stream, but, like, my entire family is at Jeopardy. So I didn't mind that so much, but I don't know if it's absolutely 100% necessary. I don't know.
01:02:50
David
I was just.
01:02:50
Case
I didn't like it.
01:02:51
David
You didn't like it?
01:02:53
Case
I didn't like it. I thought him sucking all these people in general, I think, sort of just adds to this issue of, like, well, what the fuck is algae? Rhythms plan. Like, I get part of it is that he is just out there and crazy and like, he's like, mad with power and like, and also uncreative on top of all of that.
01:03:11
Sam
But you better be careful. Alg's gonna suck you in now. Crossing a line, buddy.
01:03:16
David
Algae's gonna suck you, buddy.
01:03:17
Sam
Yeah.
01:03:18
Case
Again, I wanna have beef with Algae as well. At the end of this episode, I don't have one of the greatest athletes of all time and also a fictional representation of the computers at Warner Bros. Hating my guts. Then I have failed this episode. But my point is, like, well, what is actually his end game? Because isn't he trying to create content that everyone is addicted to? If it sort of seems like he's going to destroy them or like. Or even just trap them in this space, then they're not going to work and paying money for their subscriptions to HBO. Max, they're not consumers anymore at that point. And if there was some sort of other thing he could do with them, like slave labor or something, this might be too dark in that regard.
01:04:03
Case
Like, sure, but I actually don't know what his plan is for these people by the time you get to the end of the movie.
01:04:09
Sam
Yeah, I think in general, what is unclear, and you kind of have to infer is that he's just incredibly lonely because the kid does say, like, don does say, he's not a bad guy. He's just misunderstood and not appreciated and lonely. So you could argue that he doesn't. He's lost reason, and at that point, he just wants to have company and always have the company of all of these people and have a game happen over and over again. Because one of the things he says to LeBron is, this is going to happen. We're just going to keep playing this game over and over again when I win. So you could argue that. I don't know if that's like. Again, that's a very thin premise, but I think that's what they were going for.
01:04:55
Sam
Whether or not it was conveyed well, is kind of questionable, like this. Like, it requires a certain amount of extra literacy and generosity on my part.
01:05:08
David
Yeah, you're doing a lot of work for them on that one.
01:05:11
Case
Right.
01:05:11
Sam
So. But I think that, like, in general, that would be the only thing that I could point to. Like, that particular line that the kid said when he was empathizing with the machine and felt that he understood the server and they understood each other more than his father understood him.
01:05:33
David
I would classify that as english teacher. Levels of adding layers onto it.
01:05:41
Sam
Yeah, I do that a lot.
01:05:44
David
Very generous of you, but isn't that.
01:05:45
Case
What this movie is, though? Like a reference? A movie where the jokes are all just references, is expecting you to fill in the gaps to find it funny because of the additional context that you have.
01:05:56
David
But if that's the case, that they.
01:05:58
Case
I'm not saying it's good, but I'm just saying that's what this movie is already.
01:06:01
David
No, but that's the thing, is that then the movie really took way too much time to try to explain other things. Do you know what I mean? Like, they're just like, why am I. Well, I'm algae rhythm. And this is the reason I think, that LeBron James is the only person that could be in here. And here's my plan for it. Like. Like, they spent so much time on that. It just. It needed a few more drafts. It needed a couple kind eyes to look at it and say, well, here's.
01:06:27
Case
My thought on that one.
01:06:28
David
Yeah.
01:06:28
Case
So you guys started to say it, and I almost got a little mad because it needs to be a tournament.
01:06:35
David
It does.
01:06:36
Case
Like, it feels like it is a tournament, but it should be a tournament.
01:06:39
David
Okay.
01:06:39
Case
Because you know what? If you're gonna have all of these goddamn characters in this, it should be a tournament of Warner Bros. Properties.
01:06:45
Sam
Oh, my God.
01:06:46
David
I. Yes.
01:06:47
Sam
And that would have been fun.
01:06:49
David
That would have been fun. That's what we want to see.
01:06:52
Case
That's one part of it. The next part of it is that I think that the stakes for the Looney Tunes should be set up early on as to why they're even involved in the first place. It's not just bugs joining up with LeBron, because it's actually the reverse in the original space jam, it's the Looney tunes who reach out to Michael Jordan to help them in that scenario. And that's why they're involved in this whole thing. Bugs being like, oh, this is a good excuse to get the band back together isn't good enough. What I'm getting at earlier, when were talking about, well, where are the Looney tunes in terms of their cultural cache, is that the argument here is that algae rhythm is a personification of Warner Brothers.
01:07:28
Case
And really, the soulless aspect of the sort of information driven kind of productions that they're doing, all the things that we criticize about modern media is personified in algae rhythm. That that aspect should be conveyed in that he is downplaying the Looney tunes. He's separating them and sequestering them from a new audience because he doesn't think that they are profitable and that they're. And that they will drive sales and so that he wants to push them aside and that their intention of participating in this is to reassert themselves as an important property for Warner Brothers. And I think that then the. So basically, what I'm saying is first act kind of plays out about the same. I agree it should be shortened, but I think it's fine to do a recap of, like, LeBron's career because not everyone knows that much about LeBron.
01:08:14
Case
And I think it sets up a good vibe of, like, oh, yeah, he's moved from teams, and that's usually a big thing people criticize him for. Okay, fair. You know, I think it sets up algorithm sufficiently just, you know, speed up all those scenes. I don't know why it's like. I don't know why it's. He plays like the Bugs bunny game for the Game Boy. Like, aside from just trying to set up an early connection there.
01:08:35
David
And it's the only thing that they had the rights to for Game Boy, probably.
01:08:41
Case
But sure. Okay, so we set up, like, some of the. Like that there are these video game connections and so forth. But, like, we speed it up, we get into it. Act one is, you know, basically is getting LeBron there and getting to the point where algae is like, we're gonna have a. We're gonna have a space jam, a cyberspace jam. You're gonna have to take on the breadth of my kingdom, which is all of Warner Brothers. And that sets up a. I mean, it sets up the tournament. And so the tournament should start from the halfway point. So the first half of act two is him connecting with the Looney Tunes characters and getting the band together as fast as possible so that they can get ready for this.
01:09:21
Case
And maybe LeBron joins up with them sort of by default, or maybe because he feels bad because he sees how desperate they are for this situation. And then the second half of act two is the most of the tournament and we get to see the goon squad and we could see. We can have DC heroes doing their shit. We can have the Hanna Barbera contingent doing their shit. We can set up all these things and so we can spend some more time with it. Don't have human actors, have CG actors. I think maybe that could be the argument for the Looney Tunes from the start, which is that they're being represented as tunes and not being properly updated for modern era.
01:10:01
Case
And so that could be the transition, you know, like, that can justify the tune style earlier on and then the update for, like, more CG style once they actually agree to participate or Alga agrees to have them be in that, you know, so we can set up in act two. We see all the teams competing against each other. We can have cool, zany scenes. But ultimately, I don't want to see that much of an individual game because it is such an assault on the senses to try to follow what the fuck's going on in this computer video game version of basketball.
01:10:31
David
Absolutely.
01:10:32
Case
And it's much easier if you're seeing little snippets and then giant scores rising, and then you move on to the next competition. And that way you can have some fun stuff with other properties. You can make references that you want in there. How fucking fun would it be to have the mask and a bunch of these kind of. What if they had a team of just Jim Carreys but they're CGI Jim Carreys. So, like, no one playing should be a human aside from LeBron. And, like, we would. We would fucking adore that or whatever. They have the rights to, you know, like, put some of these, like, weird groups together that our brains connect. But maybe, like, you know, maybe for some sort of meta reason, in my.
01:11:12
Sam
Head, I'm like the cable guy, Jim Carrey.
01:11:15
David
I'm into it. Cable guy mask, dumb and dumber.
01:11:24
Case
And I'd have to stop and check to see who they actually own the rights for. But, like, they're like, clearly they own the rights to a lot of characters. You can make a lot of it work really well. And so that's act two and act three is when we get to, inevitably, the tunes after maybe some stumbling blocks where they're not doing so well. And you can have sort of the like, oh, we have to, like, be a bit goofier and be a bit weirder. We can have, like, them sort of start to embrace their tune nature. Bugs Bunny should certainly burrow through the basketball court. They should certainly paint a black circle on the. On the backboard of one of the hoops and another one on the other side.
01:11:57
Case
And so when they shoot a ball, it goes through the hole and then comes out on the other side and scores a point for them. Like, they should have moments of, like, tune stuff going on for it. It's like, whose ball is it? You know, like, do a rabbit season, duck season, but for, like, whose ball it is?
01:12:12
David
Wait, clarification. Question. Are you saying that up until this point. Point, they've been behaving in ways that they think is what allegiance would want to make money to try to prove their worth, and then they lean into being traditional tunes?
01:12:24
Case
No, I was saying you could have a warm up period in the second half of act two, the first couple games that they're involved in, and maybe they're a little more restrained or something to that effect. I'm not necessarily sure how I would ramp up the big moment for it. That part might. Because I do like the moment of being like, we're trying to be like you. Yeah, that. That was a good moment in the halftime scene. Sure.
01:12:50
Sam
It was also a good realization for him, too.
01:12:53
David
Yeah, yeah.
01:12:55
Sam
Like, again, larger thesis of, yeah, again.
01:12:58
Case
This movie is actually better than space jam one in terms of, like, being a movie. So there are things that are definitely very strong in that regard. But act three should be the opening of the last game and maybe the end of act two. We saw what happened to the other teams, like the ones that didn't make it to the end. And maybe they get relegated into some sort of, like, archival footage format which feels like that they are trapped in this state of, like, living death, reliving the adventures that they had before. Like, if all, if you're no longer creating properties, like, if they stopped making Looney tunes, Bugs Bunny would be, would have hours and hours of footage that we could rewatch ad infinitum, but it will never be new footage. And maybe that's the argument there.
01:13:39
Case
Like, they're going to be condemned to just being backlog for them to sell as part of their package. Maybe that's part of the argument that they're, instead of being part of the creative force of it's just additional content that they happen to have for consumers. And I kind of think that, again, I don't really like all these people being sucked into it. It's cute to have a few of them. It's cute to have the announcers and so forth. Maybe have some more style it to look more like actual video or actual basketball coverage kind of shots in there, but, like, with the weird, crazy shit. But I think that there should be a lot of people watching it and have it look just kind of like a shitty video game. Like, people think it's like, wait, are they twitch streaming?
01:14:22
Case
You know, or whatever service that Warner Brothers is attached to? Because Twitch is Amazon.
01:14:26
David
That's really funny.
01:14:27
Case
And like, you know, like, be like, what the fuck's going on? Because it would be, how cool would it be if the wife is like, oh, my God, this is real. Like, suddenly realize that this, like, that this polygonal version of her husband is actually really her husband and trying to get a message out to her. You could have some actual drama of all these people watching on their phones and watching on their devices in a way that is a little less aggressive than so much shit in the audience. And then that way you can build up to the goon squad actually being legitimately strong because they fucking beat Superman in a basketball game. Like, imagine Superman is then relegated to being, just because, like, Superman's in danger of being the same kind of thing. Like, comics are coming out still.
01:15:14
Case
They keep trying to make movies. Every now and then we get a cartoon that's pretty good or a tv show that's pretty good, but like, Superman, like Mickey Mouse, like Bugs Bunny is in danger of being more of a property than an actual creative output. Like, Warner Brothers makes more selling Superman shirts than they make selling Superman comics. And, like, that's the kind of argument that, like, when it's at. When we're at risk of them becoming just merchandise to be sold and, like, not. Not its own creative changing kind of form. And that's the fear that all these characters have. And maybe even LeBron, to a certain degree, has, like, the fear of being this, like, static figure in the public eye. Like, that he's become trapped in his own public Persona.
01:16:00
Sam
Is that why he keeps changing teams?
01:16:05
David
Wow. I love it.
01:16:07
Case
Okay, so I think really, like, lean into algae rhythm, being, like I said, the sort of the most villainous interpretation of the sort of modern corporate media machine, and lean into that. And, like I said, have a tournament so you can have more things on display. Cause if you want to have all these properties on display, have them fucking actually do something in the movie and not just, like, sit in the audience.
01:16:31
David
Yeah, you hit on something really good. I mean, first of all, case, you should have gone first.
01:16:36
Sam
No, this is why I make him go last. This is why I make him go last. Because he's always good. Like, it's always good.
01:16:43
David
I mean, it would have consolidated what we talked about. Cause I wouldn't have been. I was just there, like, yeah, they should have been shorter and just make it shorter. And then you have, like, specific, very good. Very good points. I mean, definitely when I just think about the idea of, like, casting them with, like, we still. Now you hit this, like, really beautiful theme, which is, like, what you said. Lebron is a property just like the rest of them. He's got his time, and his time is coming to a close now. Right? He's only got a couple seasons. He's gonna be in the NBA anymore. Like, logically, he can't keep playing till he's 50. Right.
01:17:15
Case
Which they could bring up in the pitch meeting.
01:17:16
David
Right? Right. Oh, my God. And yet you have these other characters that have, like, lived and in some sense died already. Like, Looney Tunes has had its chance. It's had its comeback. Right. This is something that I feel like comes up in the Muppet movies, which is like, we had our time of relevance and then a post relevance time, you know, and then post relevance, like, the Muppets movie with Jason Siegel was like, oh, we used to be this really popular thing, and then the movie after that was like, well, we used to be, you know, and like that with the. I'm just picturing. I'm picturing the Looney tunes begging for their lives, basically being like, we can make money.
01:17:58
Case
Let's show them.
01:17:58
David
You know, and I'm picturing this, like, commodification and LeBron James, like, realizing that, like, it's. That it. That's something I relate to more, is about, like, the sun is setting on his time as the dominant force in a sport. You know, if so much of space Jam won, what does work for me, thematically was that it was about, like, Michael Jordan realizing that he's just got to be himself. And that's why he ultimately leaves baseball and goes back to basketball instead of acknowledging that he left the sport because his father was murdered, which. Terrible.
01:18:37
Case
Possibly because of his gambling debts.
01:18:39
David
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Well, wait, is that why he left the sport, was his gambling debt?
01:18:44
Case
So, I mean, obviously, there's no, like, there is a true story that the audience, that we, the public, will never, like, fully know for sure, but there's a lot of rumors that the reason why he was sidelined or he was, like, basically soft, ousted from the NBA because of his huge gambling issue and potentially throwing matches and so forth.
01:19:02
David
Yeah, I don't know about that.
01:19:06
Case
It's hard to say for sure. Again, he was also super rich, but.
01:19:09
Sam
You know, this is an alleged thing.
01:19:12
David
Yeah.
01:19:13
Sam
Also, not another passes opinion. Only case Aiken is spreading.
01:19:19
David
This only case is saying this gambling debts were so bad that they cut him off from his main source of.
01:19:27
Case
Revenue and murdered his father.
01:19:29
David
Oh, yeah, that was part of it. That was part of the allegation as well. Yeah. But anyway, well, through playing, through cartoons, he realized he had to overcome that and go back to the NBA. Like, those are themes that, like, I care about and identify with more so than, like, this kind of manufactured thing with his son. Like, now you're titting on stuff that I'm like, oh, I understand that for LeBron James. Cause so much of LeBron James identity has been defined by, like, I am the best at basketball. I'm seeking championships everywhere I go. Well done, case. You fixed it. The tournament idea is the idea, right? You wanna see, like, 30 seconds to a minute of a match with different properties. Right? You want to see what that plays out.
01:20:16
David
What would it be like if you saw the Matrix characters play basketball? Yes, they can score, but do they go so far into the matrix, they can't see the net anymore? Right? Like, that's fun. That's fun. Let's do that.
01:20:28
Case
What if they were playing against Agent Smiths or just agents in general, and, like, they kept on being possessed by different ones and, like, someone would get freed because that's. That agent has moved on to a different body.
01:20:40
David
Yeah. That's so good. Or like, when all the Smiths came out, like, they were making all those Smiths in, like, the second and third movies and stuff like that. They're just like, too many guys on the court. You're disqualified, and someone's like, who's. That was a terrible idea to have everyone turn into smiths. You know, like, comment on the property.
01:20:57
Case
What if King Kong came out there and then was every single time he tried to do anything declared out of bounds because he's so big that he.
01:21:04
Sam
Can'T not be out of bounds?
01:21:05
David
Yes.
01:21:06
Sam
What if it was King Kong and Godzilla on the same team, right?
01:21:10
Case
Yeah. Like a kaiju team.
01:21:11
David
A kaiju team.
01:21:13
Case
And it's gonna be like, look how great they're gonna be. And they can't even fit inside the box. And so as a result, it's, like, declared a forfeit. Right.
01:21:21
David
Walkers out there and just have them legit. Just be great at basketball. Like, don't even make a comment on it. They're just really. They're white walkers. They're blue. They're weird jerseys. They take it seriously. They work on fundamentals. That's funny.
01:21:33
Sam
Make them, like, the whole goes.
01:21:34
Case
Like, they're ice cold.
01:21:35
Sam
Like, they're just, like, spinning basketballs. Like, just right. Just like, you wouldn't expect it, but they love it.
01:21:43
David
I mean, now we're talking about a movie that I'm. I want to see, and it's still.
01:21:49
Sam
A great commercial for all of their properties.
01:21:53
David
Think about, like, think about. There's a sketch I return to every couple of, like, maybe once a year, I go back and I watch the Chappelle sketch with prince playing basketball, which.
01:22:04
Case
They reference in this.
01:22:05
David
Yes.
01:22:06
Sam
Yeah.
01:22:06
David
And it's. And it's. What's so funny and enjoyable about it is seeing somebody that doesn't play basketball. Play basketball. He's in his full prince attire, and he's good at it. Right. This is. This is what we want to see. This is what the people. This is what the people want to see. This is what they want to see. Cartoons play basketball, you know? Oh, man. What a good idea. You should have. You should have written this movie.
01:22:27
Case
Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Yeah. I think that this was a movie. Like, when you suggested it, I was like, oh, well, I haven't heard great things about it. I'm sure we'll have something to say.
01:22:40
David
Yeah. Yeah. I just. Now, it's a shame because, like, they're never gonna. They might make another one, but they're never gonna make a good one. You know what I mean? Unless, like, James Gunn comes in, is just like. Or a guy like, James Gunn is like, give me the. Give me this. Give me the ropes. Let me make this. But there's just too many. There's too much at stake. Unless they're willing to, like, make the world a lot smaller or something like that. Like, they're like, you get the looney tunes and you get, you know, when I say make the world smaller, that it doesn't reach across all the properties of Warner brothers or something like that.
01:23:11
Case
Yeah, yeah.
01:23:12
David
But this I. The tournament idea is such a good idea. And then just, like, the stakes involved for the Looney tunes being, like, they're going to be relic. Like, having the idea of this liminal space where, like, you're archived, it's like, what does archive mean? It's like you're dead property. They're not gonna make you again. There's no reboots. Right, right. There's no more. And they're like, what are you talking about? Everything gets rebooted and then just give a long list of all the things that have never seen the light of day again. Yeah, you know, like, sorry, but there's a whole bunch of things that we don't reboot, and there's a good reason why we don't.
01:23:45
Sam
Yeah. I do know that people online, some people were online wherever, defending this film by saying, well, it's a kids movie. And you can't judge it because it's a kids movie. But there are very good kids movies.
01:23:58
David
Yeah.
01:23:59
Sam
That are actually a lot of fun. And also, when I saw the runtime, I was like, this is not a kids movie. Because kids, notoriously, do not have a very long attention span.
01:24:15
David
No, my kids got bored and just started walking and out of the room. Like, they just. They just, like, found other things to do. Do you know how hard it is to bore a kid to the point where tv is no longer interesting to them? My kids sat down and started reading books, and they can't read. Neither of them can read. They're both too young for that. They just, like. It's almost like they were pretending. They're like, oh, holding upside. I'll be like, oh, look at the news reports here.
01:24:37
Sam
If I look at this, maybe he'll turn this off.
01:24:41
David
Oh, father, you still have it on. I understand.
01:24:45
Case
I was just reading stocks.
01:24:46
David
Yes, yes.
01:24:47
Case
Good, good. Yeah. Because, again, the best comparison you made, and I was thinking the same thing was Lego movie, where you're looking at this huge wealth of properties, but you have much more of a consolidating kind of viewpoint. I mean, it's the Lego version of all this, and it is a. How kids play with all of it.
01:25:03
David
Yeah.
01:25:04
Case
And if you're gonna do a basketball movie about all these, like, crazy Warner properties, have it be a more best.
01:25:09
David
Of all movie about crazy Warner properties. When you put it that way, it makes a lot of sense. Why are we just having the Warner properties stand on the sidelines to watch a too long version of the game? All right, so what happens once you fix a movie?
01:25:26
Sam
We congratulate ourselves.
01:25:27
David
Do we just say it's fixed?
01:25:29
Sam
Yeah, we fixed it. Yeah, we did it. Make that movie.
01:25:34
David
I also like when you were saying that you didn't like the other people being sucked into the game, I was thinking about how much this movie was like Hook. And I was like, imagine if in hook, if, like, he shows up to the final confrontation. It's like, I have your children, and I also got your wife. It's like, when did you get my wife?
01:25:53
Case
Right?
01:25:53
David
He's like, I got her and the kids are gonna become pirates. And I'll. I don't know. I'll kill her. I guess it's, like, not a heightening, really. It's just like, okay, all right. I guess she's there, too.
01:26:07
Case
Yeah.
01:26:07
David
Like, when we talk about, like, it raises the stakes a little bit. I was like, was it. Was the stakes lower if it was just the kid? Like, he loses the kid, and he's just like, well, at least I got another kid and a wife.
01:26:19
Sam
He's got two other kids. I mean, he's got two spares, so.
01:26:23
David
Oh, well, they're not stuck in the game. All right, moving on.
01:26:27
Case
Yeah. Cause that's personal cost versus thematic cost. Like, the son has a relationship in hook. It's the. Like, he's gonna corrupt the one son like that all. You know, there's stakes beyond just their well being as a. Like. As a living thing.
01:26:42
David
Yeah, yeah. Which is the same stakes in this one, too, where it's like, I'm gonna corrupt your son and make him join my side. And this was hook. We watched hook.
01:26:52
Sam
Yeah, with wreck it Ralph, worse, and a couple other films.
01:26:56
David
Except wreck it Ralph was allowed to acknowledge things on the Internet.
01:27:00
Case
Oh, that's. Sorry. That's the other thing I forgot to mention. I wanted him like, I wanted algae rhythm, who is not a very creative individual, because he's just a market driven algorithm to acknowledge space jam more openly. That's what I. When you were referencing it before, I wanted him actually to say, we're gonna do a space jam kind of thing. Like, almost like, lean into it, because it's like, oh, it's time for a revival. Like, you can just totally work with that kind of thing.
01:27:23
David
Yes. We crunched the numbers. We looked at the math. Now is the time that we have to make this movie, and you guys.
01:27:28
Case
Better succeed, because if you don't have, we're gonna have to cut loose the Looney tunes. They're just not profitable enough for us.
01:27:32
David
Right. Here's the demographic of people that watches this, that can watch this movie. If we make it two years from now, they're gonna be too old, and kids this age won't understand it anymore. Look, look. This is the Brennan Fraser cutoff. This is when kids don't recognize Brendan Fraser.
01:27:47
Case
Perfect. Yes, exactly.
01:27:51
David
Wow.
01:27:53
Sam
That cutoff definitely applies here.
01:27:55
David
Absolutely.
01:27:57
Case
Well, David, thank you for bringing this movie. Like I was saying, before we got started, I figured I would watch this movie. I just didn't have any, like, strong motivating force for it, so I'm glad I watched it.
01:28:10
David
You know, I'm sorry. I feel like you probably would have picked something good, something classic, and instead I forced you to watch consumerist schlock.
01:28:18
Sam
No, honestly, we don't. We don't very often watch really good stuff, so this is fine. I had no plans of watching this film, and now I have.
01:28:28
David
So you didn't like the first one, and now you also got a chance to not like the second one.
01:28:33
Sam
Yeah. You know what, though? I have to say that I found this one. I'm gonna get. I'm gonna be generous with it. I found this one more enjoyable than my experience with the first one because I feel like they tried. I felt like they tried. I don't feel like they succeeded, but I feel. I feel like there were a few more themes that I connected to in this film.
01:28:55
Case
I feel like they is too broad. People in this movie tried. LeBron tried in a way that Michael Jordan didn't.
01:29:03
David
But you guys are bringing up something that, like. And I know that. I know that we should end this, because now we are getting into the territory of being. As long as the movie. Which is unforgivable.
01:29:12
Sam
Yeah, absolutely.
01:29:14
David
But there's a thing that people say that bothers me a lot, which is, like, any movie is good because it's hard to make movies, right? Like. And everything is good in that. It's an accomplishment that it was made at all, and I hate. And that makes me so mad as a critique. And maybe, oh, I'm definitely not. I'm gonna be the only guy to say this, that I don't like that critique. I know you guys like that critique, and it's just gonna be me that says this, but it bothers me so much. Cause I wanna yell at them, be like, it's actually not that hard to make a movie. Studios need movies made and they will give money to somebody to make a movie. And so, like, they will continue to make them regardless of whether or not they're good.
01:29:54
David
And so it's a really frustrating thing when people are like, well, it's an a for effort. I'm like, yeah, but it's an f for enjoyable to watch. And an f is an f as far as I like, I don't watch. There I go. Wow, this looks like a lot of work. I've enjoyed it because of that.
01:30:08
Sam
No, but I did have moments of enjoyment within this film, personally, and which I did not have with space Jam one.
01:30:16
David
Well, I want to go ahead and say on the record that I didn't enjoy a single part of this movie. And it was. It was a chore to watch and I wish I just hadn't.
01:30:27
Sam
And then you were, like, emailed us and, like, I just saw this. Let's do this one.
01:30:31
David
Yeah, I figured that. I figured you get more out of a movie you don't like than something you do. And I'm also saying this as a massive fan of both LeBron James and the Looney Tunes. I love all their other work.
01:30:44
Case
Yes. A for effort. For all the work of bugs, buddy.
01:30:47
David
That's right.
01:30:47
Case
And for LeBron, a for effort.
01:30:50
David
Case, did you. Did you like this movie at all?
01:30:53
Case
I, like I said, I'm glad that I actually did see it because I know I would have this sort of, like, weird gap after the fact of being like, I wonder what that movie was actually like, because I heard a lot of stuff, you know, kind of vibe. So I'm glad I actually saw it and had, like, a reaction to it. Like I said, I was kind of pained by some of the everything. Like I keep saying assault on my senses because it was. It was a lot of ways, particularly the actual basketball game, was difficult to watch. Yeah, but, you know, like I said, I'm glad I saw it. And that closed the question mark that was in my head about what this movie was like. Did I really enjoy it? No. Would I really recommend it? No.
01:31:38
Sam
Oh, I'm not recommending it.
01:31:41
Case
No.
01:31:42
David
But I think we can maybe put that on the marquee? It closes a question mark.
01:31:46
Sam
Yeah.
01:31:47
Case
Yeah. But there are more enjoyable things that people can watch that you've been involved in. Dave, why don't you talk a little bit about what you do, what you've got going on?
01:31:56
David
I mean, I can plug them, but they're not better. No.
01:32:03
Case
Like, even your worst Limerita commercial was better than this.
01:32:07
David
Wow. Thank you so much. I have been in worse things. So what can I plug? Well, I make a thing for Netflix called Netflix by Bots, which is a bot generated versions of movies and tv shows. And the most recent one that we did is a Netflix by Bots stand up special, which currently is circulating on TikTok. Because people are saying that it was actually created by bots. And I don't want to dispel the rumor, but there's a lot of human involvement. And so the concept is that they are the written, animated, and performed by bots. So you could find that on Netflix as a joke on YouTube or on Netflix as a joke. Social media accounts. So that's the big thing, I guess. I wanna. Yep, that's it. That's all I'm gonna plug right now. All right, fair.
01:32:56
Case
If people wanted to find you or follow you on social media, do you have anything you wanna plug there?
01:33:01
David
Would love for them to follow me on social media to get all the Dave Ebert news, but mostly just bad jokes on Twitter. On Twitter, I'm horsedevorce, which is a play on hors d'oeuvres. And on Instagram, I'm David C. Ebert. If you want a lot of home renovation, basement renovation content. Now, guys, I'm seeing the eyebrows raised. And I just want you guys to know this is. I did. So I'm renovating my own basement.
01:33:30
Case
And I watch your Instagram Stories, man.
01:33:32
David
Right, okay, so this is the thing. This is the thing. Case, that maybe you fall into the same group people. It's the most exciting thing I've ever done. For people that like stuff I do, they're like comedy fun. Show us more of the basement. Like, I get so many messages. Like, this is the most intriguing content I have ever seen generated by you. And the. And the reason it's intriguing is that I am a full on idiot and I am renovating my full basement by myself. Like, I'm talking electric and drywall and building frames and doing plumbing and doing it really bad and calling a professional. Like, that's. That's what I'm doing down there. In fact, as soon as I get off this call, I'm going down there and painting. So follow me for David C. Ebert at Instagram.
01:34:14
Case
We'll let you get back to that. Sam, if people wanted to find you, where can they find you? What have you got going on?
01:34:19
Sam
They can find me here at another pass, and I am checking the discord more so, like, I guess, you know, there. And other than that, if you have any complaints, and especially if you are Michael Jordan, you can find case at Michael.
01:34:38
Case
You can come at me on Twitter at case aiken. If you want to come at me on Instagram, you can come at me at five because I am both a mythology nerd and a legion of superheroes nerd. If you want to find the podcast, it's on Twitter. Another pass. And as Sam said, we've got a discord for certain POV. So if you go to certainpov.com comma, you can find more episodes of this show and all these other shows. But we have a link to our discord server where you can come engage with us. It's a great time. We recently ish reorganized everything to be much more categorized by the types of shows we have. And so the content has become much more driven by the topic as opposed to specific shows.
01:35:16
Case
So our movie shows are now all engaging in movie conversations all the time. Our comic shows are all engaging in comic book shows all the time. Our book shows are mostly doing book discussions and what things people want to read and so forth. It's a great time there. So check that out also@certainpov.com. Dot. You can find tons of other great shows. I'm going to be selfish today, and I'm going to plug one of my shows, which is Men of Steel, which is my Superman and Superman adjacent show that I host with J. Mike Falsen. It's a really good time. When this drops, we will have long since done our recap of Invincible Compendium one, but that's the most recent thing I recorded as of when we're recording this. So that was a good episode, and lots of our stuff has been good.
01:35:56
Case
Go check that out. But if you're looking for more episodes of this show, Sam, what do we have up next?
01:36:02
Sam
Next time on another pass, we'll be talking about Highlander two, the quickening. But until then, if you enjoyed this, pass it on.
01:36:14
David
Thanks for listening to certain point of View's another pass podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com.
01:36:43
Case
So you made us watch space Jam.
01:36:45
David
Yeah. I love that. I made you guys space jam, and then I emailed you, and I was like, I didn't watch Space Jamden.
01:36:51
Sam
You're like, so technically, I browsed space jam.
01:36:56
David
I watched it. I watched. I watched it. As much as anyone can watch it's as knowable as space Jam two can be to any.
01:37:04
Case
That's kind of fair. That's why I wasn't that worried when you. When I saw that, I was like, oh, well, yeah, I guess that's fine.
01:37:11
David
And I can't stress enough. It's. It's not like I missed the homework assignment. It's that the homework assignment happened. And while my kids also didn't care about space Jam two, I think that's.
01:37:23
Case
Actually the most important market research that we can have for this discussion, because I don't know who this movie is for.
01:37:30
David
That's exactly it. Right, right. Because I had friends that were like, oh, well, at least kids like it.
01:37:35
Case
And I'm here to report no cpov certainpov.com dot.