Another Pass at Conquest of the Planet of the Apes

In the far future of the 1990s, ape will serve man, but humanity is humane, sowing the seeds of uprising. Case and Sam continue their journey backwards (and forwards and then upwards… all the while twirling) through the Planet of the Apes franchise with Conquest of the Planet of the Apes! We’re joined by Kale Ryder to light the fires and illuminate this dark entry in the franchise.

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Meeting summary:

●      The meeting focused on a detailed analysis and discussion of the movie 'Conquest of the Planet of the Apes', examining themes of fascism, slavery, and character dynamics. The hosts, along with guest Kale Ryder, delved into the movie's timeline, setting, and differences between the extended cut and theatrical release. Suggestions for script adjustments were discussed, alongside recommendations for viewers to engage with the podcast and upcoming projects. The meeting concluded with post-meeting banter and reflections on the movie's impact on personal values. Key action items included analyzing the impact of nuclear war on ape intelligence, exploring additional social strata among humans and apes, and considering extending the timeline for the movie to 40 years in the future.

Notes:

●      🎬 Introduction and Overview (00:00 - 08:29)

●      Discussion about the brutal nature of the movie 'Conquest of the Planet of the Apes'.

●      Introduction of hosts and guest, Kale Ryder.

●      Kale's background and his love for the Planet of the Apes franchise.

●      🦧 Association with the Franchise (08:29 - 18:43)

●      Kale's history with the Planet of the Apes movies.

●      Discussion on the different versions and sequels of the franchise.

●      Comparison between the original movies and the newer ones directed by Matt Reeves.

●      📅 Timeline and Setting (18:43 - 30:01)

●      Discussion on the movie's setting in 1991 and its inconsistencies.

●      Debate on the rapid population growth of apes.

●      Ricardo Montauban's character and his role in the movie.

●      🔧 Movie Mechanics and Themes (30:03 - 43:28)

●      Analysis of the movie's themes of fascism and slavery.

●      Discussion on the conditioning scenes and their impact.

●      Comparison with the more recent Planet of the Apes movies.

●      🛠️ Character Dynamics and Performances (43:28 - 53:00)

●      Roddy McDowell's performance as Caesar.

●      The role of Governor Breck and his portrayal as a fascist leader.

●      The impact of the character MacDonald as the only sympathetic human.

●      🎥 Extended Cut and Theatrical Release (53:00 - 01:01:51)

●      Differences between the extended cut and the theatrical release.

●      Impact of the added violence and the alternate ending.

●      Discussion on the test audience reactions and the changes made.

●      📝 Script and Storyline Adjustments (01:01:51 - 01:10:50)

●      Suggestions for script adjustments to improve the movie.

●      Ideas for adding more class and social striations.

●      Discussion on extending the timeline to 40 years in the future.

●      🔍 Detailed Analysis and Final Thoughts (01:10:50 - 01:20:34)

●      In-depth analysis of the movie's impact and themes.

●      Final thoughts on the movie's strengths and weaknesses.

●      Encouragement for listeners to watch the movie.

●      📢 Closing Remarks and Plugs (01:20:34 - 01:31:19)

●      Closing remarks and thanks to Kale Ryder.

●      Plugs for Kale's social media and upcoming projects.

●      Teaser for the next episode on 'Escape from the Planet of the Apes'.

●      Encouragement for listeners to engage with the podcast on social media.

●      🎙️ Post-Meeting Banter (01:31:19 - 01:41:26)

●      Light-hearted banter and jokes about the franchise.

●      Discussion on the impact of the movie's themes on personal values.

●      Final thoughts on the importance of the movie in the franchise.

Transcription

00:00
Case
Like, it is a brutal fucking movie. There's so much more blood. The girls just murder a dude at the very end, and it's just like, oh, and there's fires and then like, credits.

00:08
Kale
Yeah, it just. He's like standing there and it's just like, it's over. We are the planet of the Apes. Welcome to certain POV's, another past podcast with case and Sam, where we take another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. Let's see how we could have fixed them.

00:29
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another past podcast. I'm Casey Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Sam Alasea.

00:35
Kale
Hi.

00:36
Case
And today we are closing the chronal loop of time in this weird backwards progression through the original Planet of the Apes movies. And to do that, we are joined for our conversation about Conquest of the Planet of the Apes by Kale Ryder.

00:52
Kale
Hey, it's me, kale.

00:54
Case
Kale, thank you for coming on. I'm so glad that Matt introduced us and that connected you in our goal to find people who could actually talk about this really weird franchise.

01:04
Kale
Yeah, I love Matt. I love them to death. And, yeah, that was awesome. When they're like, oh, yeah, you should definitely have them on. I was like, yes, I love Planet of the apes. I love. And I love conquest, especially cause it's. Oh, it's so different, yet so much fits the vibe of everything I love.

01:18
Case
Well, so that gets to my second question. But first question is for the people at home. Who are you? Like, where. Where can they find you? Where might they know you from?

01:25
Kale
I edit porn. Yeah, that's my day job.

01:29
Case
That's awesome.

01:30
Kale
Yeah, no, you can find me on Twitch TV, kale writer, or Twitter. Alrighter. Sometimes I do a show about movies, movie news. Like, I broke down all the stuff about HBO Max recently and had some insider information about it. So, like, yeah, I just. I usually cover entertainment stuff and play video games on Twitch or have mental breakdowns on camera.

01:53
Sam
So entertainment for all.

01:54
Kale
Yeah, exactly.

01:55
Case
In this world, like, who could blame you for any of that?

01:58
Sam
Exactly.

01:59
Case
I mean, it's not like we're in some sort of weird totalitarian apocalypse where the police are just beating, you know, primates down in horrible ways.

02:06
Kale
Yeah. Forcing them to have injections even though that's against their culture.

02:10
Case
Yeah. Yeah, man, this movie hits different. This movie hits different. But on that note, what is your association with the planet of the Apes franchise?

02:19
Kale
So just a weird ass history? I grew up watching the original one on tv, and then the first vhs I ever bought was beneath the Planet of the Apes, so I've been on it for a long time, and then I think it was in high school, they had the dvd collection of them all for, like, $5. And then. Yeah. And then I think, like, five years ago, I bought just the regular Blu ray because this was also $5. Yeah. Like, I've watched it mostly throughout my life, but I was, like, older when I watched escape and conquest. I still haven't watched battle yet, so.

02:53
Case
Battle's rough.

02:55
Sam
I enjoyed it. I think you should watch it.

02:57
Kale
Okay. Eventually, someday I'll watch it. I just. I kind of want to go back and watch the Tim Burton, and, like, I haven't even watched the last Matt Reeves one yet, so I'm gonna.

03:06
Case
Oh, you should check that first.

03:07
Sam
Yeah. I don't know. Maybe just watch battle, get it out of the way, because they didn't have a lot of money, so just. Just do it. Rip it off like a band aid, and then go watch something that, you know, money was put into.

03:19
Kale
Yeah.

03:19
Sam
That has actual effects.

03:22
Kale
Yeah. Like the Tim Burton one, where Eli Roth is the Eli Roth.

03:26
Case
Tim Roth. Yes.

03:29
Kale
Eli Roth is. No, Tim Roth is the main bad guy.

03:32
Case
Yeah. So in prep for this episode, I actually went back and listened to one of our earliest episodes of the show, which was on the Tim Burton one, and I was surprised at one. No matter what, I can always just hear how much I love this franchise, like, every time I'm talking about it and how mad I was having just rewatched it for the podcast at the Tim Burton movie, because there's so many things that are just like, oh, yeah. They just didn't have a thing that they were trying to say with that movie. Compared to these ones, at least, and compared to the more recent trilogy, it's the one that can easily just be kind of tossed aside. And then I would argue, like, I argue that it's, like, kind of tied for last between the Tim Burton, the beneath, and battle.

04:18
Case
But honestly, after the rewatch for. For this show, like, battle's kind of creeping up there a little bit, and I'm curious to see how beneath's gonna hold out. So, like, Tim Burton might be, like, sliding firmly into the final spot.

04:30
Kale
Yeah, no, I like going back and watching this. I was like, oh, he. Like, Tim Burton understood everything about, like, the old ones. Like, aesthetically, just, like, the story was, like, not good in that one.

04:44
Case
Like, beautiful costumes, wonderful setups, like, the actual sets that they use, like, the, like, treehouse city that they were in. Very cool looking.

04:52
Kale
Yeah.

04:53
Case
Fuck. Fucking. Nothing being said out loud.

04:55
Kale
Well, yeah. And then Michael Clark Duncan's character doesn't even show up until beneath the Planet of the Apes. So I thought that was interesting. When watching it again, I was like, oh, this character doesn't show up until the sequels. So they at least gave a little bit of attention to the sequels. And Caesar is the one monkey that gets lost.

05:11
Case
Yeah. And there's time travel, which isn't really in the first movie either. It's more of an invention of beneath to justify a sequel. So. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, clearly they were familiar with the franchise. It just feels like someone was vomiting up all the things that they remembered about the franchise without trying to actually, like, get it into the bird's mouth.

05:29
Kale
Yeah. Dig into what actually makes this thing, like, has lived on for like, 70 years or something now almost.

05:35
Case
Yeah.

05:36
Sam
Yeah.

05:36
Case
But I do think it's interesting to look at the franchise now that we do have the Matt Reeves movies or like, the Andy Serkis ones, since Reeves didn't direct the first arise in that it does create this sort of now open loop, like originally the franchise because there's debate about how things are going to go after a battle. At the end of the movie, you are left thinking, oh, either we're going to descend into the same sort of schism where humanity is a subservient class to the apes and are being pushed into bestiality. That's not the right word.

06:08
Sam
Yeah. I was like, what?

06:09
Kale
No, that's just in special.

06:13
Sam
You know, I'm not going to kink shame anyone, but. What? King.

06:17
Case
Yeah, sorry. Into an atavistic regression, we'll say, yeah, okay, he's a ten dollar word instead of a five. But if you look at it from the perspective of the larger franchise because there is also room for humanity to actually find peace with the apes at the end of battle. It could be a scenario where it creates, actually a loop where rise becomes the first movie in the franchise chronologically. And then you follow that story of the Ascension of the Planet of the Apes, and then you go to the first movie where it's the astronauts that they say they lose contact with and rise and they end up in the future, and then the apes come back in time and then we actually break the timeline as a possibility. And that's all, I think, kind of interesting.

07:04
Kale
Yeah. Like, like rises go straight into Chuck Heston's one, whereas, like, well, I mean, not really because they left in the seventies, but, like. And then conquest and all that is its own alternate timeline, maybe.

07:16
Case
Yeah. I mean, like, because, like, looking at conquest, like, conquest, I think, is doing a lot of things really right. But there are some interesting choices that they are making and a lot of it's budget and a lot of it is who they could get that make the timeline really weird because this is set in 1991. Like, I don't know about you, I don't remember us all having ape servants in 1991. I probably would have been very down with it and I would have wanted them to be my best friend.

07:41
Kale
Oh, yeah, for sure.

07:43
Case
But, you know, because other than that.

07:45
Sam
It looked just like 1991.

07:48
Kale
Oh, yeah, for sure. Like the.

07:49
Case
Oh, yeah. All the fashions, the way everybody dressed.

07:51
Sam
The fashions, the hair.

07:53
Kale
The cold war was still going on.

07:55
Sam
All of that stuff. Very much. I mean, all of our government officials were all black everywhere. No suits, no ties. Very clean military kind of uniforms. It was amazing. The nineties was very clean cut. Very clean cut decade.

08:11
Kale
They got the architecture perfect.

08:14
Case
Can you imagine if they actually got the fashion choices perfect? If it was fascist? Jinko jeans.

08:20
Kale
Yeah.

08:22
Sam
UFO pants.

08:24
Case
Like, everyone is wearing plaid overshirts, but they're all black with gray trim instead.

08:29
Kale
Oh, my God.

08:30
Case
Yeah. Yeah. So the timeline is a weird part here looking at this movie, like, regardless of anything else. And, like, there's so many things that are like, oh, it's technically a problem, but it's not a thing that ruins my enjoyment of this movie. And so, like, we just pick up from the teaser at the end of escape where it's like, oh, yeah, the baby survived and Ricardo Montauban has the baby. And so now it's an adult and it's only, you know, it's like 18 years after that movie, and all of a sudden we have slave ape society and they're getting smarter and they're being utilized that way. And there's a lot of apes also, which is a note I have just in terms of, like, the numbers, like, how, like, there aren't that many apes in the real world. They are very endangered.

09:11
Kale
Yeah. Those female apes really want to get fucked real hard. Like, the way she was looking.

09:17
Sam
Well, I think it's because she already had an interaction with him, like, at the bookstore. So she was like, but, yeah, no, but they're breeding them specifically because they're, you know, they're hot, of high value, clearly. I mean, so this is. This is a business. So, yes, business is booming and so the population is booming.

09:37
Case
Yeah, but, like, population boom, though. Like, but apes don't age that fast. Is, I guess, what I'm getting at.

09:42
Sam
Like, okay, that's fair.

09:44
Case
I mean, they would have really had to, like, because the actual timeline is like, okay, the plague that hits all the cats and dogs was eight years prior, so it's not even going back to the seventies. So from 1983 to now, like I'm saying objectively, it doesn't work from, like, the practical standpoints. Again, it doesn't ruin this movie for me because I get that probably they wanted it to stay as the direct child as opposed to, like, the descendant of Cornelius and Zira. Like, they didn't want a great grandchild. Yeah. So they probably wanted to keep it being direct. And they wanted Ricardo Montauban because, of course, if you have Ricardo Maltaban, like, you want to use him.

10:21
Kale
He kind of stuck around longer than he should have, but I did not complain while watching.

10:26
Case
Yeah, he makes terrible choices in this movie, but, like, I'm glad he's there.

10:30
Kale
No, I said inhuman.

10:32
Case
Like, okay. Like, his adamant, like, nature of being, like, no, I have a documented, it's the first ape born in a circus. And, like, there have been four born.

10:41
Kale
In LA, but that is a zoo.

10:46
Case
He's so passionate about that all. And it does. Like, I almost start to believe him at some point because mostly because he's, he is so charming and he's talking about the most banal thing in a way that you're like, okay, sure, I guess I believe you because you're charming enough that I don't want to actually investigate this further. And you sell that part of the character there. But the movie is very straightforward. It's very straight to the point. Everything about it is like, all right, well, we showed some pretty brutal stuff, and now we're going to have Ricardo Montauban give so much exposition.

11:22
Sam
Yeah, they definitely covered the exposition and they made it his job for the most part in the beginning of the film. It's like, no, you can't do this because this is what humans do now. No, no, you can't do this because you will be in trouble if anyone finds out you speak, like, just in case anyone didn't watch the movies prior to this and didn't know, don't worry. Armando is there to tell you everything you missed.

11:48
Kale
I love in movies when they do that, like, most recently in that without remorse, there's this actor, Colman Domingo. I love him, but he's in one scene and he's just there to give exposition. Like, just ask the question, ask the dudes history and stuff. So I love when they just have one character in a movie played by someone who's relatively famous and has a very good voice to just give expedition so it doesn't feel so forced because you're just like, I love your voice.

12:16
Case
Yeah. And it works well here with this dynamic of Armando being this father figure to Caesar. So that makes sense. And, like, there is an element of being like, how does Caesar not know? But he's also been like, they. They do drop lines that he's been shielded from all this.

12:32
Kale
Yeah.

12:33
Case
So I get all that. And then, like, the look of this movie is. Right. What they're going for is appropriately brutal for about what you could subject to a PG audience.

12:44
Kale
Yeah.

12:44
Case
I think is the thing that I keep coming back to. I'm like, holy shit.

12:47
Kale
Well, and it's like, the only one that's rated pg, too. Like, all the rest of the others.

12:51
Sam
Are all g in the like, I think especially even before you get to the end, which is fairly brutal. But, like, the conditioning area, where it's basically a torture area, it's very open. And, like, you're seeing all this thing, and they're just kind of walking Caesar through while he's watching different apes get to experience horrible things. I was like, oh, okay. This is where this movie is going. I forgot that this is where this movie was going. I must have blocked it out.

13:24
Case
Well, they conditioned you not to remember it.

13:26
Kale
Yeah, I was afraid I've forgotten all of it while watching it, even though I did watch the extended cut. I think I've watched the original cut before because. From dvd to Blu ray. But, yeah, I was like. I was like, oh, no, I remember all of this. I remember how brutal it was, and now I'm like, oh, it makes sense for who I am in the year 2022. Why I still love this movie so much. Because of its revolutionary attitude towards. In the face of fascistic whatever.

13:54
Sam
I mean, yeah, I mean, there is the director, like, just this entire film, it is. There is no, like, what is this film trying to say? I don't. You can't misinterpret what this film is trying to say about race, about fascism, about slavery, about complex issues that, like, this movie's like, no, this is terrible. Are we going to put a black man it? Yes. Are we going to make him the only black man surrounded by white men that have microaggressions pointed at him? Absolutely. Is he going to be the only person who somewhat sympathizes with the apes? Yes. Is someone going to make a microaggression terrible comment about it. Figures. Yes, they are. Like, it is. There is no way. There is a very clear line of what this movie is trying to say, and it is brutal at every turn and very direct.

14:48
Case
Yeah, yeah. It definitely doesn't pull any punches. I might be worried that this movie might punch too hard at some spots. Like, you know, there's, like, the issue sometimes of when we try to talk about fascism, we can't help but point to, like, the most extreme example that we're all familiar with, which is, like, nazi iconography. And sometimes you have to remind people that, like, no, it starts smaller than that and it works its way up. But this movie is also, like, fully in, like, no. Oh, we all just agreed we're fully into fascist future where we have a slave state. That's pretty rough, Sam. I'm glad you brought up the conditioning, though, because I do want to apologize to listeners of the last episode because I was venting about how I was thinking about it.

15:30
Sam
Go on.

15:31
Case
I thought that the no thing in battle for the Planet of the Apes, where it's such a trigger in conversations for them all, I thought that was a little too much and kind of not that well done. And I forgot just how directly they are being specifically conditioned to the word not just to commands from people in this movie. I still think that the scene itself is bad in battle where they deal with it all. But I do realize. Oh, God. Yeah. I just had forgotten that. It's like, oh, no. They strap them two chairs and electrocute them while shouting no at them in this movie and put them in a room with flashing lights blaring, no. While they're being beaten with batons, train them. This movie is so rough in terms of what it does to its protagonists.

16:17
Sam
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I was thinking about that when I was watching this, and I was like, ha. Yes. And I did agree with you. I did agree with you that I didn't particularly like the scene, and I felt that it should be handled in a slightly different way, but that I still felt that it was very fair and I feel very vindicated. I'm glad you apologized to the listeners. I'm gonna take it as an apology to me. Thank you very much.

16:41
Case
Sure. I guess. I don't know. Cause, like, were going around circles, being surprised at how much we liked so many of the things in battle, even though it's notoriously like a bad one that has a low budget and the makeup's just not as good. And there's all these things kind of going for it. I don't think that's really a big issue for this movie. I think that they do a really good job across the board in terms of, you know, they take advantage of Century city looking more futuristic, or at least it looks very, like, artificial and concrete. It looks fine as a setting for here's future world. They pull suits, or, like, all the jumpsuits that the apes wear are pulled from other movies. And I think that's a good call.

17:22
Case
And it was the thing that I was annoyed about in battle, where all of a sudden they just revert to wearing, like, the ape clothes of the future. And I felt like that was just like, clearly, you don't have money to do your own costumes, and you're just grabbing old costumes. Why couldn't you grab costumes from a different movie? So it's not just like, oh, yeah, well, our fashion will be the same for hundreds of years, and we immediately settle into it. This movie does not have that problem. This movie, they. While they keep the color coding, and I like the idea that the color coding that the apes exhibit in their fashion choices in the future is actually still them replicating choices that were put upon them by humanity because they have not transcended our oppression as much as they thought they had.

17:59
Case
I like that we've got these, like, these jumpsuits for all the characters. I think that's a cool look that is appropriate for this slave class. I don't. Yeah, yeah.

18:10
Kale
It fits into that fascist aesthetic of owning people and knowing, like, essentially giving them color coding for. Because they have to do certain jobs, like, certain classes do certain jobs, like. Yeah. Yeah, it's beautiful and disgusting.

18:23
Sam
Yeah, no. Beautiful and disgusting. I like that. No, but they do. They like to categorize people. Right? It's like they're, you know, that is very much part of the fascist system. Like, it makes it easier to know who is who and to separate people from each other. And so it makes so much sense, and it does. It is lovely that it, like, it's a nice touch. Not that the color coding is lovely. It is a nice touch that pulls into their future, you know, kind of what their styling would be. Like. This is what we associate with. This is the color my people have always worn.

19:00
Kale
Yeah. And then it also goes into, like, how they. How they're still, like, divided even till the end of the planet. Like, because ultimately, even though they come together to con. To do a conquest of the planet, what ultimately ends them is how divided they still are. Because there's, like, pure science, there's religion, science, and then there's just the military brutes.

19:26
Case
Yeah. You know, like, I was thinking about the gorillas as the brutes concept, and I think that the original movie just sort of, like, rolled with it because it made the most sense to have, like, the big scary ape be the military one in that scenario. Yeah. I do think that it would have been nice if in this movie, and I don't know if there's a way to, like, work this into a pitch, per se, or like, part of a pitch. If the violence that's being perpetrated on the gorillas, is this is human based in terms of, like, why then they become the sort of violent, perpetuators of that.

19:59
Case
Like, why they become the police state themselves, you know, because gorillas are famously, like, the most docile of the apes in terms of what they're going to do because, you know, who's going to fuck with them? Like, they're not, you know, they're not going to attack and do all the terrible things. Not to say that they won't ever, but relatively speaking, like, which one's going to do it. Chimpanzees probably more likely. And orangutans are known to be very scary to approach.

20:23
Sam
Yeah.

20:24
Kale
And then also, like, you know, because gorillas are bigger than most other primates, so, like, they would probably do, like, the heavy labor and like, I mean, they basically did that where they were all cleaning or. Yeah, stuff like that. So, yeah, that would be interesting if it was more like, if there was more of a, like, if they showed more like they got more abused and like the chimpanzee. Like the. The chimpanzees were more used for intelligent based things, like fetching things like that, even though whenever Caesar gets a piece of paper from a random ape, it's always a gorilla. But still.

20:57
Sam
Yeah, well, they're carrying things back home. That's. Yeah, for the most part. So maybe it is heavy lifting still.

21:04
Kale
Yeah, well, and then, like, all the chimpanzees are filing in the government building.

21:09
Case
Yeah, that didn't fucking make any sense for me. Like, in terms of, like, wait, what? Wait, you have them, like, putting things by number it, like, you're trying to have them sort like. Yeah, like, this is too far down the line in terms of how smart this supposed to be.

21:23
Kale
Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

21:25
Case
One thing that I thought was interesting in this movie is that we don't see a lot of orangutans actually. Like, we only see one that I can think of in actual captivity, and then we see the cage that he comes in with. So there's, like, some shots of them there, but they don't spend a lot of time showing them in any particular position, which I just thought was interesting. The one time we see one is in the bookshop that when Armando and Caesar come into and Lisa's, like, picking up a book for her owner, and, like, an orangutan's the one who's supposed to pull it, and he pulls off, pulls down a philosophy book. And I thought that was, like, kind of a cool element there of like, oh, this is what they kind of gravitate towards, but.

22:03
Case
And it might just be by virtue of the types of jobs they're assigned to, we just don't see them particularly often. But I thought it was, like, interesting, just that weren't getting them. You know, like, it's mostly gorillas and chimpanzees in this movie.

22:16
Kale
Well, even at, like, the end, you can barely see any in the big fight scene.

22:20
Sam
Yeah, that's true.

22:21
Kale
Yeah. Yeah.

22:25
Case
Because I did like, for example, when Caesar sneaks in, I like two parts of how he sneaks into captivity. I like that when he decides to strip down and jump into a thing of apes that he does have immediately this bond with the orangutans. And that sort of feels like setting up the dynamic of the orangutans being the trusted advisors who then take on this sort of, you know, administrative role in society. It felt kind of like the way it's like, yeah, let's have Maurice be an orangutan in the more recent movies so that we can set up Doctor Zaeus as this lineage of lawgivers who are all part of the hand of the king, if the king was Caesar kind of situation and moving along with sort of like, this regency.

23:11
Case
So I like that they were there and they had that, like, kind of interaction where it seemed that, like, Caesar was able to calm these apes down and this is his first real time bonding with other apes and whatnot. And then I like that, you know, they address, like, oh, yeah, Borneo doesn't have chimpanzees. I thought that was, like, a good detail from the, like, this movie is still, in theory, like a family friendly movie that, like, kids are supposed to watch. And, like, that's the kind of, like, pop science that I thought was appropriate for those kind of things, because, like, if you're a kid and you're into apes, you're like, orangutans. Are in Asia. Chimpanzees are in Africa.

23:44
Kale
They can't be together. How'd they get to New York?

23:47
Case
Well, and then it's like a cool detail for them, like how he gets found out. I thought, you know, it works. You, as an audience member, feel smart because you probably noticed it, too. And they're like, oh, yeah, we're with you. We're all just as smart.

23:59
Sam
And if you weren't just as smart, you learned something new. Congratulations.

24:03
Kale
Yeah.

24:05
Case
Watching these in reverse, culp, the CIA guy I like a lot more in this movie than in battle. In battle, he's, like, fully crazy and, like, doesn't seem to have, like, real rational plans for anything in this movie. He's actually pretty scary. I'm going torture you guys.

24:20
Sam
Incredibly menacing and clearly a driving force in this government. He is very much out for blood and very much ready to convince the governor of anything to get his chance to do away with the threat that might be. But also keep all these apes under control. And he's hungry for it, too. You can tell it's a great bad guy in this one.

24:47
Kale
Yeah, definitely. Really scary.

24:51
Case
Yeah. And he motivates two, or he motivates. One of the really big scenes that McDowell gets by virtue of killing Armando. He sneaks off just to cry into the night. I thought was such a cool performance there. Yeah, yeah. Like, McDowell is given so much work in this movie playing his own son. Like, he gets to be a smart ape pretending to be a dumber ape in all those sequences, and he's kind of going overboard. He's trying to gnaw on everyone's clothes and stuff.

25:21
Kale
Yeah, yeah, that was funny.

25:23
Case
He gets that big dramatic scene that we just mentioned of him crying about when he finds out that Armando is dead. We get the sequences of him learning to sort of control the apes, which I thought were pretty good when him breaking up the banana and, like, giving it to the other chimpanzees. Like, that's a pretty good moment there.

25:39
Sam
Yeah.

25:40
Case
And then we get the speech at the end, and that's like, just. It's a tour de force for an actor. Like, they're like, all right, the world is burning and you're gonna say, why? It's a good thing, man. Go.

25:51
Kale
Yeah, yeah.

25:52
Sam
It's an amazing speech.

25:53
Kale
Yeah. I mean, it riled me up, but at first, they're just like, you're gonna stand there for, like, a good five minutes just looking around while everybody's dying, and then someone's going to ask you something and then you got to speak for 20 minutes about why burning everything to the ground is actually a good idea.

26:11
Case
Yeah. Yeah. Now, cale, you mentioned that you watched the extended cut for this and we've alluded to it at this point. So this movie was initially screened with the hope of getting a PG rating but thinking it was probably a g was in their head. And then the test audiences reacted horribly to this movie. It was thought to be too violent and too scary and, like, you know, about a slave uprising against a fascist state that didn't. People in 1972 just didn't think this was, like, good for kids. And so again, it's marketed as the extended cut. I need to double check this because the only thing I know of that's, like, very overt because rewatching them back to back, like, yeah, there's more blood. There's, like, a few more. Like, a few longer shots.

26:54
Case
They added a speech for theatrical cut where after Caesar gives the whole, like, this is it. This is why we're doing it. As far as I can tell, that speech happens just the exact same between the two cuts. And then it cuts to a close up on his eyes and they don't. So you can't see his mouth. And then reaction shots from people and they have Roddy McDowell in what is very clearly adr. Like, very clearly dubbed and does not match the. Like, the audio levels just don't quite match what his previous speech was. He gives this whole speech about how, like, but God wants us to be humane to the people so that we're better masters to them as slaves as opposed to the way it was under them. And it's this very awkward bit.

27:39
Case
And, you know, and then it ends with him being like, and this is the birth of the planet of the apes. And it cuts, but it's supposed to imply that, like, all right, well, Caesar's not gonna be quite as bad. And, like, it's really interesting that's the movie that got released and that it's the thing that allows for the timeline possibly to not be a closed loop because censors and test audiences were too scared.

28:02
Sam
Yeah, well, it is terrifying. I mean, if the end goes the way it was originally planned, right? And Caesar just says, and that time is now, and then humans are just murdered and that's the end of the movie, that's terrifying because one of the things that this movie does and does well, which a lot of old science fiction is amazing at, it's not good at subtlety, right. But it's good at being, like, hey, you. You might be messed up. This might actually be a reflection of you. You might not actually be the apes. You are a person. And that hits a little tinge of, like, guilt, right? That hits, like, a little, like, oh, no. Am I. Am I the baddie? Yes. Yes, you are the frickin baddie. And especially since this is such a direct.

28:57
Sam
I mean, like, how many parallels can we really bring? Like, if we're talking about race and you clearly have the only character that is the objector is a black man. I am telling you, there is some white guilt saying this movie is too scary. Like, that is just, like, an actual reality, and that's not something that the people in the seventies were unaware of. Maybe they didn't have all the language we have, but James Baldwin was already writing, so, like, the people had already marched. You know? Like, people, like, the civil rights movement has already occurred. Like, is still going on, you know? So this is not something that they're not aware of. This movie is very clearly saying this. And that end is like, yeah, you deserve to burn. And it's like, that's fucking scary because that's part of it, right?

29:45
Sam
So put it there. Like, don't worry, we'll forgive you. God wants us to be merciful and humane, and everyone should just be nice to each other. We can all be friends, you know, just soften that shit right up.

30:00
Kale
Yeah, right. Like, what I call, like, a Star Trek ending where it's like, sure, they're bad, but I think they learned a lesson, so let's just never talk about it again.

30:12
Case
Yeah. It's interesting to compare this movie, looking at this movie now, where we've gotten rise and the circus trilogy, where we can kind of deal with it from a different perspective. So in escape from the planet of the apes, we get a layout of a timeline of humanity being, losing their pets, bringing apes in as pets, eventually realizing they can teach them to do tricks, eventually putting them into bondage as slaves, and getting this whole timeline of this rise of fascism and this rise of slavery built around convenience for people. And it starts with necessity. It starts with this human need to have animal companionship. And the only things that are really left alive are apes in the wake of this virus that runs rampant.

31:00
Case
And in rise, we get a version of that timeline where on the surface it's like, oh, but that's not quite, you know, it's not as bad. But from the apes perspective in this movie, where they're all in bondage, they're all being tortured, they're all being medically experimented on. They have all these things going for them effectively. It's the same thing. It's just we're not seeing it from their eyes because we're used to the idea of animal testing. We're used to those kind of, you know, we're used to the idea of circus apes. We're used to the, like, all these ideas in there and where we get, like, this much more subtle version of that. But that. But from their vantage point, is the same.

31:36
Case
It doesn't matter if we, as 20th century, 21st century Americans, can be like, oh, but the Nazis were the really bad fascists. All you have to point to is some terrible situation, the worst thing that the apes, as the victims of this oppression, have experienced. Yeah. Just because you can imagine a version that's less subtle or more boots treading on you kind of situation that's, like, even. Even more harsh or even more, like, you know, aesthetically, like, gross. Like, it doesn't change the fact that they're still in this horrible situation in what is effectively the real world of us, like, testing them or, like, testing on them, murdering their parents and stealing their babies and pulling them out of the wild, putting them in zoos, putting them in cages, putting them in whatever. Putting them.

32:24
Case
Putting them in rocket ships and throwing them into space and then, like, probably dying in most of those scenarios. Like, you know, it's. So this is what I was saying about the movie might almost be punching too hard at some moments because it is going all the way to, like, full on nazi and not, like, reeling back to be, you know, so it feels like, how could we ever go that far? And what the truth is, it's rather easy. It's just small steps along the way. You like jumping 20 years from the last movie to being like, oh, yeah, we're full on Nazis right now. And having only one person being like, what the fuck happened? Like, McDonald's the only one being like, I don't understand how we got here. Like, this wasn't what I signed up for.

33:02
Case
I think that's the one thing that the movie is, because they really wanted to show this scene. They really wanted to show the future that had been talked about in the previous movie that we raced there. And they're like, okay, we got Ricardo Montauban, and we got Roddy McDowell playing his own son. And these are all things that audiences are going to really like and who's going to really care ultimately? I don't really care. I like this movie a lot. I think that the fact that it doesn't make sense timeline wise is fine. I wish that maybe this movie wasn't defanged in the edit somewhat, but it is pretty brutal.

33:35
Sam
Can we talk about the silence that happens as the two armies, the human army and the Ape army, are facing each other? Because that was so wonderfully done in terms of, like, building suspense. Like, we. We talk a lot about in this podcast how, like, music and scores can lend to. But, like, sometimes just silence. Cause it was just like, I. For a second, there was like, wait, did my sound go out? And then I was like. And then there was just like, a small, very small, like, kind of pin drop. And I was like, oh, no, no. It's quiet on purpose. Like, this is like, this is to build the tension because we're. We're as carefully listening for the first shot or the first, you know, blow or whatever explosion that's gonna happen as everyone else in the scene.

34:24
Sam
So it's building this tension and putting you right exactly where the characters are in that moment. I think that's so wonderful and brilliant, and I loved it.

34:34
Case
Yeah. And that scene, like, the apes aren't very visible at first, either. Cause the humans, like, all march out. They've all got, like, their. Their riot shields and their guns and whatnot, and you just see them, like, lining up against shadow, and then you just start to see little bits of the red jumpsuits catching a little bit of light, starting to become silhouettes. And then eventually they emerge.

34:55
Sam
Yeah, it's actually really great because there's this. You get the close up of them all lined up, ready with their shields. They're heavily armored with guns, and they're standing there. And then you get this long shot really far away. So you just see. See their formation, like, in a perpendicular line, and then you see some movement behind them and in front of them, but it's really hard to see. And it's just all silence. And that would be terrifying as a human, no matter how armed you are, but it's just terrifying on both fronts.

35:26
Case
That scene read to me as, like a zombie movie scene when I was watching it last night. I was like, oh, yeah, we're with the apes on this one. But if you weren't, this would look like some sort of, you know, unhuman horde kind of emerging from the darkness, quietly ready to, like, shatter your head in with the butt of a rifle.

35:46
Kale
Yeah, yeah. That slow, creeping feeling is one of the. One of the top tier feelings. And, like, yeah, just besides the weird cuts, whenever an ape would get shot. It's some very good editing and shot extremely well. But, like, this is the other thing. Like, the light and shadow and, like, what they teach you in film school is, like, to, like, usually a scene like that would have a little bit more light. And then, like, yesterday, I saw bodies, bodies, which, like, does the exact opposite, where everything is just super dark and you can't really see anything. So, like, I always appreciate when it's, like, super dark and there's just the right amount of light to show something to where it's not, like a blank screen and boring, but, like, yeah, just to show the darkness.

36:31
Kale
And then the fire coming up, the subtly creeping fire to cleanse the earth. Good job to the director and the DP.

36:39
Case
Yeah, I mean, this is a weird one to talk about because it's very to the point and it's not very long, so there's not, like, a lot of crust to cut away or anything like that. We establish our. We got our ape, he's in slavery real quick, and he's tortured for a while, and he leads an uprising pretty fast. And then everything happens and burns. Everything burns by the end. Yeah.

37:02
Kale
This concrete city burns to the ground.

37:04
Case
Yeah. Like, this movie, it goes back and forth with escape. In terms of which one I'm more into. Like, I love them both for very obviously different reasons, but it's a strong movie. This is the reason why people talk about the broader franchise. Like, the fact that you can get to this point in. In this whole series after the initial subversion of human roles in the first one, and then, you know, beneath is whatever, and escape is just so strange. And then you get to this movie and they're like, oh, man, that's a gut punch right there. And it's like, kind of how the franchise really ends. Like, no matter what your thoughts on battle are, it still feels like an epilogue. This is the movie where it's like, all right, yeah, now we're seeing how it happens.

37:54
Case
Like, oh, yeah, the apes have risen up and you're kind of with them for it and, like, kind of there for human society being ripped apart by them because we have clearly made such a mess of it all.

38:04
Kale
Yeah, because that persistent storyline through it to where, like, at the end of the first one, you find out we nuked ourselves into oblivion. And, like, just. Just sort of seeing that weave in and out with especially escape and conquest to see, like, oh, no, we kind of do deserve it because our first reaction to us maybe being the lower class of. Of species is to just murder a baby.

38:28
Case
Right.

38:28
Kale
So, yeah, maybe we kind of do deserve this.

38:31
Sam
And not only, like, murder the parents and the baby, but then subjugate the rest of their species and species like them into slavery, into servitude and, like, making sure that, like, you keep tabs on their intelligence and their growth to make sure that somehow this future that you heard may or may not happen doesn't happen, but you're going about it through violence. Right. So, like, no matter what you're inflicting the pain upon these species, that is going to make them want to do exactly what they are possibly, depending on who you speak to, destined to do in this timeline.

39:14
Kale
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

39:15
Case
Well, and then all the audiences are aware of that's what they're getting into because I watched the trailer for this movie, I think pretty much all the planet of the Apes movie trailers, like, spell out the entire plot. Like, I always point out how ridiculous the escape one is because it even shows them on the run at the very end. And the trailer for Conquest ends at the Knight of Fires with Caesar giving the speech and a lot of the speeches in the trailer. And it's like, wait, hold on. Are trailers at this time just Cliff notes versions of the movie?

39:48
Sam
Yes. Yes, they are. Absolutely. If you watch any, like, trailers from this time period, they will be almost the same, like, the entire movie. It is ridiculous. And, yeah, I love watching old trailers because it does it all the time. It gives away everything. Yeah, but it is crazy that it has the whole speech in there.

40:10
Kale
Yeah, that would be ridiculous. I would, I mean, if I was a planet of the Apes fan in the seventies, I would be mad. But luckily I'm not sort of, I.

40:18
Case
Mean, there's also the appeal of kind of just seeing how a thing plays out and not have. I mean, first of all, it doesn't tell you that's the end of the movie. I guess I would be a little annoyed if it's like, oh, literally, they showed the last shot kind of like the way the amazing Spider man two trailers had him, like, swinging in to fight Rhino and it's just like, wait, that was where the, that's where you ran the trailer or the credits? That's a weird choice. But, but there is an element of just seeing how it plays out. And this movie is definitely doing that because, like, we already knew, like, what happened.

40:47
Case
Like, we know that eventually there was some kind, like, apes were put to work so that they could do this whole monkey see, monkey do thing where, like, all right, they start doing the tasks. And then when humans are gone, they just keep doing the tasks. And, you know, from the vantage point of someone, like, zoomed out, like, oh, yeah, the society is just continuing on and it's all fine, you know, because the argument of the franchise as a whole isn't necessarily that, like, apes specifically are going to be the thing that kind of replaces us.

41:15
Case
It's just that, like, we're all eventually getting turned into automatons of some kind, whether it's a trained animal or if it's a machine or if it's just a person who doesn't understand what they're doing in the first place, if it's humanity being stripped away from people and they're being put into these roles where they're just going through the motions and have no actual thought or passion or growth or humanity. I mean, the humans in this movie are stripped of their humanity before it even starts. Like, they're all wearing blacks in a way. You know, all the apes have color and they all have life, and there seems to be a culture to them. Like, even the fears are being stripped away from the humans.

41:54
Case
Like the comment about cigarettes no longer killing them, you know, which is just a weird note to throw in there. It's like, oh, yeah, it's the future, guys. We figured out the smoking thing, but we don't see art. Like, their architecture has become very austere, very brutal. What is the point of living in this world? Well, there isn't. Humanity's already given away their humanity, and ape kind might have a chance, but we know that they're kind of going to fall into the same tropes also.

42:22
Kale
Yeah, and that protest scene where it's like, you could put it into immigration at the time or automation in the future, all our jobs will be automated. And so people would protest that. Like, I thought that was a pretty cool. And then even, like, the protests could only last for like 2 hours or something. Like, the fascist government was like, okay, you can protest, but you're gonna be gone in five minutes.

42:48
Case
Yeah.

42:49
Kale
Like, even shit like that was fascinating. Like, just the way they came up with all the things of the future, the fascist future.

42:58
Case
Did you notice how all the, or not all the cops, but like, many of the cops that were, like, actually involved with, like, physical violence were black men?

43:07
Kale
No, I did notice that.

43:08
Case
Like, I caught that and I was like, oh, that's, you know, I think they're like, I think there is a reason for it. I don't think it was just a fluke of casting, especially not with these movies. I think it's the same conversation we have about, like, black police officers today who are, like, part of the same problem of, like, people getting assaulted and whatnot. And it's out there where they're being subjugated and into being forced into being cogs in this machine of violence that is, you know, hyper realized in this movie, but, like, a reflection of our real society.

43:41
Kale
Yeah, no, exactly. Yeah.

43:42
Case
Fuck, man. I just love this movie. Like, it's so weird and wild. Like, I. Like, I want to talk about all the things about it, but at the same time, I'm like, isn't it cool? Isn't it fucking rad? Isn't this thing.

43:52
Kale
Yeah, and, like, yeah, I just. Again, like, watching it over again, I was, like, surprised. I was like, oh, I can see why a bunch of my values sort of, like, why I like this movie. Because a bunch of my sort of values stem from anger of what. What is shown in this thing, and you can just, like, connect it all and then, like. Like, one of the things I wish they did more was touch on, like, class based stuff. Like. Yeah, because only the rich people could own apes like that and stuff. So, like, yeah, I just wish there was a little bit more, like, in a little bit more history of how we just sort of got there in, what was it, like, 20 years from the last movie, really?

44:35
Case
Eight years again from the virus in 1983 that breaks out, and it's only from there that we get to the 1991 timeline.

44:42
Kale
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, well, that's the other thing was, like. Like, that disease doesn't exist unless they come back.

44:50
Case
Well, they say it comes from space. My head canon is that it is the same virus that happens in rise, that, like, the apes all have it, and it's a future version of it, and it's airborne. So when Caesar, or rather, when Cornelius and Zira come back, they bring the virus, and that's why we're starting to see the uptick in ape intelligence already. Yeah, like, that. That quickly. And, like, Caesar is born already, you know, with the additional modifications that happen from time and all that. So he's a little bit more advanced than all the other apes, but, like, just by being there, he is the catalyst for this acceleration of the timeline.

45:24
Kale
No, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Like, yeah, that's one thing that I always laugh at every time I talk about. This is, like, the virus in this timeline. It may not have existed if they didn't go back in time, but, like, so, like, in doing, like, you know, having Caesar be the one who comes back and ends up being the leader and then also doing that, it seems, like, a little too much for time travel. Like, should have been a little something else to kill all the animals and make the monkeys intelligent, but.

45:55
Case
Well, I mean, this is all head cannon stuff because, like, for me, like, looking at the Andy Serkis ones, one of my gripes with it, and I only have a few, like, small ones. Like, this is super nitpicky is that they don't make reference to just cats and dogs being dead. Like, we don't really see them in the movies anyway. I think there's, like, every now and then, like, a guard dog and, like, war and maybe in dawn, but, like, it would have been really cool if that had been, like, a part of it, because we know that by the time we get to the ape future birds are dead. There's no flying animals. They don't think flight is possible. And that's.

46:27
Kale
There's one bird. Well, in. Beneath.

46:29
Case
Oh, it might be in the shot, but, like, there's a whole thing in the first movie where it's like, oh, flight is impossible. And thus, like, science, you know, like, they don't think you can even do it.

46:37
Kale
Yeah, well, no, and beneath, a monkey shoots a bush, and then a bird flies out. He's like, oh, that's what the noise was. So. No, but, yeah, because, like, he makes the paper airplane, they're like, you cannot fly.

46:48
Case
Right.

46:49
Kale
Yeah.

46:50
Case
And that would just seem like a thing that you couldn't have in a society with in a world where birds exist. And it's possible that, like, for one thing, we know that there massive striations between them all. And also it just might be they didn't think about it.

47:04
Sam
Yeah.

47:05
Kale
Like, besides that one scene. Yeah. I don't really, like, remember any, like, birds throughout the whole thing, so. Yeah, yeah. And, like, you. You would assume because everything's, like, all wild, like, dogs and cats would be rampant, throwing wild. But no, it would be cool if.

47:22
Case
They had just made that detail there. Yeah, but that's, again, just a headcanon thing to tie this all together, because I do think the movies, like, hold together interesting. Well, for how little they clearly care about each other's continuity.

47:33
Sam
Absolutely.

47:35
Case
Or in weird spots, though, because there isn't eight credited as Aldo, and Aldo is the. The name of the ape that Cornelius talks about in the previous one being the leader of the uprising. So, like, there is a part of me being like, oh, was Aldo supposed to be the one? But Caesar being from this other timeline is also part of, like, why the, you know, why time is forking in a weird way.

47:56
Sam
Right.

47:56
Case
I don't think it's that deep. Like, I like the movie. These movies have a lot to say and they care a lot about some things, but I think they really don't care about some other things.

48:06
Kale
Yeah. Like, like having Caesar's real name be Milo and escape.

48:10
Case
Like, yeah. I rewatching it, I was convinced that the moment where he picks his name, Caesar, is the point where he gets named Caesar in the movie. And then it's like, oh, no, but Armando's already calling him Caesar.

48:23
Sam
Yeah, it's interesting because I actually, like, had him almost like, oh, wait, is that how, like, the same thing happened to me? I was like, wait, is that when he got. No, no, it's not. He just picked his name that he already had, that Armando gave him, but maybe it was an alias, you know, because he couldn't be Milo.

48:42
Case
Right. I figure that he probably, like, the ape that was born in the circus was probably named Caesar, and thus he had to go by that name. But then it makes me wonder, like, if he's incognito, why would he pick the name of the fugitive ape?

48:54
Sam
Oh, that's because he was just like, bitch, I'm a king. Did you see the way he looked at that guy?

48:59
Kale
Yeah.

49:00
Sam
He was like, oh, Caesar. I feel like that was more like a spiteful. I'm playing with you. Like, like, I. Like, I'm going to pick my own name and then look at you and see if you're smart enough to connect the dots. Also, it allowed them to make that king comment, so, you know.

49:15
Kale
Yeah, exactly.

49:16
Sam
Because it pulls no punches and it has to have foreshadowing. Needs to be heavy.

49:22
Case
It does, yeah. This movie has a couple of shots that made me think of. And the time, like, this movie comes out first, so it's not like they're trying to do a send up. That made me think of the Conan the barbarian movie from the eighties, specifically the king stuff. Makes me think, like, king by his own hand. But also, when he goes into, is that actually Lisa, or is that a different chimpanzee that he's supposed to mate with? It looks like it's the same actress, but I'm not sure it looks like Lisa. I think it's her either way, when he is sent to go impregnate the chimpanzee and he has this sort of, like, goes up to the door and there's, like, almost like this, like, cutesy.

50:02
Case
Like, well, I got things I gotta do, which is, like, that's a little too chill about that whole situation.

50:09
Kale
That's very seventies of you, sir.

50:10
Case
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But that shot is very similar to when they, like, give a. Like, give Conan a woman, and he, like, brings her in and, like, all of that. I'm like, oh, yeah, right.

50:22
Kale
They brought to many women the fucking narrator in that show.

50:28
Case
Uncle Iroh.

50:30
Kale
Yeah.

50:32
Case
Yeah. This whole series is wild. Kale, you pointed out a thing, and this is going to be part of my pitch when we get to it, that there is less class infighting than you would expect in this movie. I would have liked some playing the apes against each other, like, playing the gorillas against the chimpanzees, against the orangutans. And I would have liked some more class in fighting between the humans. Like, we get little bits of it, but not especially, like, the protests and stuff.

50:55
Kale
And, like. Like, really, the only. Like, the only person who breaks the thing up is the governor's assistant. Like, there should have been, like, there should have been a lot more attention in that protest, I think.

51:05
Sam
Yeah. And honestly, there should have been. I mean, I know they. They kind of. They hint at a different labor protest later on. Like, I would just feel like, if you're a human, and especially if you're a human who is not part of the upper classes, then the apes are taking your jobs. Like, you've got Frank, which, by the way, I love those names. Frank, you've got frank serving, like, people water at restaurants, and you've got apes cleaning stuff up, and. And you've got, like, you know, them offering water and stuff like that. Like, those are now jobs that the restaurant owners no longer have to pay for. Right? Like, there's, like. So that means that there are people who just don't have work. And there was, like, a thing, like, well, the labor protest will end in five minutes. So, like, that.

51:53
Sam
Even the protests are very regimented. Like, but that was, like, over an intercom. Like, there's nothing to really state how, like, the humans who do not benefit from, for lack of a better term, the ape trade and the apes slavery that is going on. How are they dealing with it? I mean, that's kind of an untouched kind of thing that could have definitely been touched here, because, honestly, it would be a thing.

52:27
Kale
Yeah. And then you think about, like, in our world, like, Fred Hampton, stuff like that. Like, an allegory towards that would have fit perfectly in the story. Like, someone who was, like, getting, like, if Caesar somehow convinced, like, lower working class people to join in on the. The riot, that would have been awesome.

52:46
Sam
And hilarious, which, if anyone could, it could have been Caesar.

52:50
Kale
Yeah.

52:50
Sam
Honestly, did you hear that speech right?

52:54
Kale
Yeah. I was like, yeah. I want to die. Thanks, Caesar.

52:57
Case
Yeah, it is. It's. The thing with this movie is that it is. It is so short and it is so narrowly focused on this. This one specific uprising. It's not even, like, a larger, like, system of uprisings or anything that we. We just get this one moment. It is so brutal and a gut punch, and it is living up to the expectations that were given by previous movies. But I don't know who's watching this movie by itself. Like, it's not a. It's not a thing that you're just like. Despite the. Despite the amount of catching up that they do for a person who hasn't seen the other movies, I don't know who's going in and only watching this one movie in the Planet of the Apes franchise and being like, I get it.

53:35
Sam
Well, honestly, if you're only watching this one, are you ever going to come back? Maybe. Maybe. But I don't know. It's pretty brutal.

53:43
Kale
Yeah, it would. Yeah, definitely be. Definitely watch it last, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. It definitely doesn't make you want to go watch the first one and watch a three dude swim naked in a lagoon.

53:57
Case
Right.

53:58
Kale
The best scene in any movie I've ever seen. Just like, what are we looking at? Penises or feet? Print? I don't. I don't understand from the shot. Yeah, yeah. And, like, it does. Effectively, what it goes towards is just like. So I think to really, like, punch it home, there needed to be a little bit more just because it is short. So you could have added a little bit more about other places and other things because. Yeah, that's part of the speech at the end is it's just like, I mean, it worked here today, but what about tomorrow and stuff? Like, you could still get defeated tomorrow. And then seizures, like, well, then we'll get back up and do it again until. Until we get it right.

54:39
Sam
Yeah. So, yeah. Case, do you know, I know that the budgets for these movies kept getting smaller and smaller. What was the budget for this film?

54:49
Case
This was $1.7 million.

54:53
Sam
Wow. That is much more than the movie.

54:58
Case
It is not the smallest budget that we're going to see. Well, or rather, it was already smaller by the time you get to battle. And it had a pretty good return. It made 9.7 million. That's 1972. So it's cheap, but it's not quite. We recently talked about Halloween and how incredibly cheap that movie was, especially in comparison with the movies that made comparable amounts of money the same year as it. And obviously, like, that's $300,000. That's a ridiculously low amount of money. And it's only five years after this. But it. A lot of movies were coming out in the 1 million range at this time. Not all of them had complicated eight prosthetics to go with it all. You know that.

55:45
Sam
Yeah.

55:46
Case
This franchise is hard to do cheap, because the whole thing, even though every impulse is always like, can we get it cheaper? Can we get it cheaper? The whole thing that sells this franchise has always been interesting special effects to make you cool within the moral messages they're trying to present in each of these movies.

56:04
Kale
Well, they did a lot with this one because even escape. What is it? The circus gorilla looked terrible.

56:15
Case
Yeah.

56:16
Kale
Like, and, like, I thought it was interesting that they did the choice to make every ape look like a planet of the ape.

56:22
Case
Ape, yeah. I mean, I think the. I think there's this element in the movies where we understand that they're human actors in the suits, but, like, I think the humans in the scene are supposed to see them as, like, normal chimpanzees. Like, even though the first movie would lead you to believe that they are evolved to have more, you know, upright posture, to have, you know, more human proportions, like, all these things, I think, like, the apes in escape don't read to everyone as being not real apes. Like, they don't read as, like, super evolved apes until they start speaking. Even when they, like, even when they, like, start putting on their own clothes where it's like, where'd they get those? They just had them.

57:01
Kale
They have a carpet bag.

57:05
Case
So I think the idea is that, like, okay, well, if they weren't wearing clothes, we would just see them. They would just, like, look like regular apes to us.

57:12
Kale
I mean, that's how Caesar snuck in.

57:15
Case
Yeah, and that. And that's what I was going to say. So when he sneaks in and we see the other orangutans, like, then when he, you know, when. When they. When the orangutans walk in with him and they. They're put in their orange jumpsuits, all of a sudden they look like regular planet the apes movies. Like apes. Yeah. So I don't. I don't know. I. The decision to have them in jumpsuits and to have, you know, not to do much with, like, getting their, like, their proportions different I think is overall fine. I find it frustrating that the actors don't really commit to being eight postures enough. Like, there are way too many shots of all the humans in the suits just like, standing upright because it, you know, is hard to be in a hunched over posture like that.

57:52
Case
Yeah, but I kind of feel like they should have just, you know, made that work. Like, there's too many shots of it just like, them. Just like, walking around, like, chest up and it's like, that's not how you are supposed to be looking at this point.

58:04
Kale
Get that line director to do their job.

58:07
Sam
I mean, I appreciate what you're saying, but, oh, my back. So I sympathize.

58:14
Kale
With it.

58:14
Case
I'm not saying they have to hold that posture. I'm just saying get the shot of and then be like, all right, and cut. And then they like, ugh.

58:20
Kale
Yeah. Especially back in the day because they could only shoot for eleven minutes at a time. So, like, you know, just. Just give them a little bit better direction to be like, no, we're shooting right now. And then you can just lean against this wall for the next 3 hours because we got to go set up this shot over here. Movies. Making movies is hard.

58:40
Case
And this one, they didn't have a ton of money and they were making it work as best they could. And the point is not that they are super convincing apes, the point is that we're telling a slave uprising story where we're supposed to sympathize with the uprising and they're getting away with it because it's a family friendly Sci-Fi romp.

59:04
Sam
I mean, I think the movie actually does a really effective job of making you cheer for the apes and sympathize with the uprising and stuff like that. So I think that in that way, it's a very effective film. And kudos to that. And they did it for the family, so it's lovely.

59:21
Kale
They cut out all the violence for the family.

59:24
Case
Yeah. Well, I think we are kind of circling about, like, we all just like this movie and like, there's, like, there's nitpicks and tweaks that we'd like to make. And I'm curious what those all are. Like, what are the things that we each, like, most strongly need to fix? But I think we've said our piece about, like, just the general qualities of this movie. Like, it's good. Like, it's a good movie, especially for the budget. Yeah, it's incredible for the budget that, you know, sure, it's not the best movie you could make with these themes or with this, the subject matter. And that's. And we know that because rise of the planet apes is the same movie. Just, like, with a budget.

01:00:00
Kale
Yeah, like, this thing has already had another pass thrown at it.

01:00:04
Case
Yeah, exactly. But I am curious, like, what we would have changed in this movie at this time, like, the seventies, you know, the 1972 uprising movie about a bunch of apes. Like. And so why don't we take a break, shout out one of the wonderful shows on our network, and when we come back, we will give some pitches. Video games are a unique medium. They can tell stories, immerse us in strange, fantastic worlds, blur the very boundaries of our reality. But at the end of the day, video games are fun, whatever fun is to you.

01:00:35
Kale
I'm Jeff Moonan.

01:00:36
Case
And I am Matt, aka Stormageddon.

01:00:38
Kale
And on fun and games, we talk about the history, trends, and cooling community of video games.

01:00:44
Case
It's a celebration of all the games we play and all the fun we find within them.

01:00:48
Kale
And there's so many more games out there, so we hope you'll share in that conversation with us.

01:00:53
Case
Fun and Games podcast with Matt and Jeff. Find us on certainpov.com or wherever you get your podcasts, and happy gaming. And we're back. All right, so, Kale.

01:01:04
Kale
Yes.

01:01:05
Case
We're talking about the Planet of the Ace movies. We've talked about how we like this movie. We all expressed affection for this franchise. Obviously, I have a ton, since I was pushing us to do all five of them back to back on. Oh, yeah. So here's the deal. We're gonna. We're gonna speculate on what could have been done realistically in 1972 with a $1.7 million budget. Or if you want to justify a larger budget, explain how they would get the money. You know, like, how. What they would do to, like, bring in anything. I am not allowed to go before Sam is the rule. So you can go first, or you can push Sam to go first because you are the guest. I'm just not allowed to be the first person to go.

01:01:46
Kale
Okay. I mean, I'll go first because I don't have too many notes about it. Again, I really enjoy this movie, but I do have, like, three or four notes about it. So my first note is, I would change the virus to not be a paradox. Another, since, like I said before, there are two time travel things specifically. So, like, I would just have it be, like, a natural phenomenon that happened because it doesn't happen for, like, ten years or something. It happens eight years before the film takes place. But, like, that was a long gestation period for them to bring the virus back and for it to go into them killing the animals.

01:02:25
Case
So I'm not actually sure if that is from them. In the canon of this, like, my head canon is that it's the virus that came with them, but it says it came from space. But I don't think they're explicit that it came from Cornelis and Zira.

01:02:38
Kale
Oh, well, I just assumed that it was because they said the astronauts brought it back.

01:02:43
Case
That's true. I mean, like, I don't think it can contradicts, but I'm also just not positive. No, it's, like, flat outstated.

01:02:49
Kale
Well, I mean, I wouldn't even, like, mention it coming from space or from astronauts at all. Like, it would just be, like, a thing that happened and, like, was predicted by them.

01:02:58
Case
I mean, that makes sense.

01:02:59
Kale
Yeah, yeah, that's like the. Because. Because, again, it's just like Caesar is a time paradox. Like. Like we should stick it to one. Like, if they were to. If they were to teach this in a writing class, that would be a rule, I would hope.

01:03:12
Sam
Stick to one paradox.

01:03:14
Kale
Yeah, one paradox. If you're not gonna. If it's not. Like, if time travel isn't the main plot point of your movies, which none of these are.

01:03:23
Sam
Right.

01:03:24
Kale
Yeah. It's just a thing that happens. Well, even in the originals, it's fairly well explained that because they're traveling at the speed of light, time around them is moving faster, whereas this one is because a nuke went off, they went back in time somehow.

01:03:39
Case
Well, in beneath it becomes this whole thing where it's just like, oh, yeah, we found a portal in space. And that's why I was able to come find you and then I can bring you home. They at least set up that as a possibility. Again, the first movie is not a time travel story. It is the time passing. They just happen to not age very much for it. But then the second movie immediately is like, no, no, nevermind. There was a portal in time. That's how that works.

01:04:05
Kale
Yes. So that one, that's like a simple one. The next one I have here, I would say, have Armando die during that protest. Have it get more violent and more heated. Have Armando die and have it be an accident by one of the chimps or one of the apes. Do it so that Caesar can forgive him and then can go on to sort of like, what was that second one where there was the bad ape.

01:04:35
Case
That he still kept Kobo.

01:04:37
Kale
Yeah, Kobo.

01:04:37
Case
And gone.

01:04:38
Kale
Yeah, something like that. To where it's like that. Even though he's mad at this ape for killing his father figure, he still forgives him because he realizes that the real enemy is humankind. So, yeah, that would be one. And also, that would also help with the budget because you wouldn't have to pay Ricardo Montablan, just pay for two days instead of the three weeks I'm sure he was there for.

01:05:04
Case
Right.

01:05:06
Kale
And then again, my other thing is, even though it is more geared towards family, I would have loved to see it be more violent, just add some more violence. And that's because I'm a sicko and I'm also, like, 30, so I don't really give a shit about it. I don't have children, so I don't really care about it being family friendly. So, yeah, because I think if they made it a little bit more violent, you would feel more. And, like, that ending would hit a little bit better. Not theatrical one, but the extended cut ending would hit a little bit more if you saw how violent. The more violent the humans were towards apes.

01:05:43
Case
Yeah, I mean, just like, the extended cut, which, like we said, is probably pretty close to what the, like, the original test screenings cut looked like. Like just that alone. Like, it. It hits harder with. Or there's no cushioning on that one. It's just like, straight up, like, yeah, there's lots of blood. Like, everyone's got, like, some kind of gash on their face. Everyone's got, like, blood splatter. It's weird looking blood splatter, but they got some kind of blood splatter. And, yeah, it just ends with being like, yeah, shit's gonna burn. Credits.

01:06:13
Kale
Just roddy standing there and then fade to black. Are you sure, Paul, that's how you want to end it? Yeah, yeah, that was the other thing. Before I go on to my final point. Rod Sterling wrote the first one, and then the same guy wrote all the rest of them. And you could tell very much like, Charlton Heston's character was very cynical. You're like, oh, this is definitely a rod sterling thing. And then, yeah, it goes on to be less subtle and less cynical, but still good. And then we kind of touched on this earlier, but I would say the last thing I wrote is because they set up in escape, that basically what changed the apes becoming dominant was one ape said no. And so they do that in rise of the planet of the apes, when Caesar finally speaks.

01:07:03
Kale
And it's not that big of a surprise here. Because he could speak from birth. But my final note is have an ape besides Caesar say no. Like, actually talk and say no and stand up to it and to bring it more accurate, too.

01:07:19
Sam
Yeah, because they're like. They have an ape say no in theatrical, but it's no to hurting humans.

01:07:27
Case
Right. Yeah.

01:07:30
Sam
Which is, like, not. Doesn't hit the same way as someone standing up for themselves.

01:07:36
Kale
Yeah. See, I thought that was in the movie, too. And then I. But I guess they took that out of the extended cut.

01:07:43
Case
Right, because it's the. It's. She says no after he finishes the first half. And then he picks up the second half where it's just like, oh, but also humanity.

01:07:52
Kale
But also, we can maybe be friends.

01:07:55
Case
Right?

01:07:55
Sam
Why can't we be. No.

01:07:57
Kale
Sorry, yes or no? Put a check mark next to yes or no friends.

01:08:02
Case
Yeah. It's like the kind of thing you can imagine, like a Phil Hartman type character. Like, giving a speech and, like, you know, or like a zapper. And again, who was supposed to be Phil Hartman, like, where it's like giving a speech about, like, kill all the humans and then someone whispers in there is like. That'll include you. Yeah, some of the humans.

01:08:17
Sam
Exactly.

01:08:18
Kale
Yeah. So, I mean. Yeah. And I still, even after watching this, like ten or 15 years later, still enjoy this one very much. And still my secret favorite, besides the lagoon scene, I'm never going to let that go. Like, I can't believe I did not see that earlier when I've watched. Because I watched it many times, the first one. And I can't believe that this is a g rated movie. The first planet of the apes.

01:08:49
Case
Yeah. You got the lagoon scene and then you got the court scene where he's just standing there naked.

01:08:53
Kale
Oh, yeah, that one I do remember because that's also, like, one of my favorite scenes where they do the monkeys all do the thing.

01:08:59
Case
Yeah. The monkey. See or like, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.

01:09:02
Kale
I was like, that's awesome.

01:09:03
Case
Yeah. Again, these movies are not subtle. No, none of them are. The most subtle is probably rise somehow.

01:09:13
Kale
But I mean, especially, like, the first one was, like, really good at, like, not being too, like, over the. Beating you over the head with it, but, like, it was just me. This is me, like, professing my love to how much I love Rod Sterling. But. Yeah, like, that first movie, I thought, again, watching it now is like super genius. And, like, you can see how everything connects to real world stuff. And it's not, like, too obvious, but still, it's like, if you missed it. You had to be pretty dumb.

01:09:45
Case
No, I think those are solid points. I mean, like, him saying no when instead of just saying filthy. Or was it filthy human bastards or.

01:09:53
Kale
Yeah, filthy human bastards.

01:09:55
Case
Yeah. Like, if he just said no to start with, and, like, that caused everyone to look back or something to that effect, that at least would have been, like you said, lore, accurate, and it would make a lot of sense, and it would be also kind of scary, because, again, they've been all conditioned to respond to no that way. And he's instead the one saying it.

01:10:14
Kale
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. More powerful, but, yeah, that's. That's it for me. Yeah, I bet if I had. If I. If I wasn't so, you know, lazy and waited till the last possible moment, I could have had more, but, yeah.

01:10:28
Case
Well, again, I think this movie is. Is also good, and it's part of a franchise, so, like, you know, we are like, I don't think anyone's realistically gonna be like, well, don't bring back Roddy McDowell. He had become the face of this franchise, even if it was under the mask. Yeah, of course. And Ricardo Montauban is great. So you're going to bring him back because.

01:10:51
Kale
Of course, of course, if you have the ability to bring him back to anything, Star Trek did it, so why not the apes? That was after.

01:11:01
Case
Yeah. Well, and then you're stuck in the situation where it's like, okay, that covers your two stars, and then everything else is like, all right, we only have so much money to shoot so much stuff. So, like, it is a tight movie. Like, you know, there's only so much wiggle room. We're not talking about, like, a, you know, back, like, to the foundation kind of rebuild on this movie.

01:11:20
Kale
No, and it doesn't really need it, because it does have it. Well, I mean, most of the foundation is from. Built from previous movies, but, like, you know, the story is a very good story. The message is very potent, and, like, what they wanted to do with it was good. It's just there's some nitpicky issues that could have, I think, could have led to, especially if Armando died early on. And it wasn't really, like, there wasn't, because the interrogation of them being, like, you knew you were in the same area as zero and Cornelius was, so you must know something. Just, you know, that. That sort of drags on and could have been built towards something else. I mean, it does help with showing how even fascist they are towards just regular humans, but, yeah.

01:12:14
Case
Sam, do you want to take the next swing.

01:12:16
Sam
Yeah. No notes. I love this movie. No, stop doing that. Joking. I'm joking. I'm joking. But seriously, notes. No, no. I will say it really is a good movie. Like, honestly, you watch through, it's compelling, and it moves really well. It moves very quickly. Would I have wished that there was a little more time? Yes, I wish that there was a little more time for breathing, for Caesar to form relationships, especially with Lisa. Liza. Liza. I can't remember her name now.

01:12:54
Case
Lisa. Yeah.

01:12:55
Sam
Lisa. Yeah. And I was like, I'm in the ballpark. Just to, like, kind of, like, cement this idea that, like, she's a partner and. And especially if you're going to go with theatrical and have him listen to her whispering of. No, then I would have liked a little more build out. I mean, yes. You see? Which is brilliant. I mean, honestly, it's. It's amazing when you get those little, you know, him, like, nodding behind an ape as they go to do something like that, slightly rebellious of their job and messing up the world, you know, just like, oh, I was shining your shoes, but now I'm lacquering your socks, you know, like. And. And just like, I don't understand what's happening. The apes are malfunctioning kind of thing. But it speaks to a larger, like, kind of tribute to the idea that.

01:13:49
Sam
That workers have power.

01:13:52
Case
Right?

01:13:52
Sam
Because if you're not doing your job the way that the people that are telling you to do your job, then. Then it trying to retrain you, it gums them up. They can't retrain all of us if we just all stop working. And so that's definitely in there. I think that's brilliant. But I do feel like I want more orangutans. I want. I want a lit. Like, I don't want to feel like I know that I want Caesar to feel like the king, but I want him to feel like he's building an actual kingdom. I don't necessarily get that in the film. And, I mean, the best places down in the underground where, like, you could have a simple thing where an orangutan points something out to Caesar, like, oh, this is a good idea. Like, kind of not even.

01:14:38
Sam
Like, it doesn't have to be even verbal. It can just be like, you know, kind of like him touching and then a couple of, like, chimp noises, you know, monkey noises overall together.

01:14:47
Kale
Strong.

01:14:48
Sam
Right. And just kind of be like, oh, yes. You know, and you can have, like, you know, the actor who's playing the era tank make some noises. Right. And then you can have Caesar go, excellent idea. And then jot it down. It's that simple. It's less than a moment. Like, it's. It's. It's so easy. So I would just have liked to see him form more of a counsel. He can still be the mastermind. He's definitely the mastermind. He is the person that is giving them the strength to move forward and move beyond. He is a beacon of hope. And you get that in the movie. But I just kind of, if I made one change to this and only one change, thinking of, like, the budget and everything else, that would kind of be where I would enrich it.

01:15:36
Sam
Even though I would love to add, like, labor stuff and things like that, I think the most important thing, actually, is just kind of enrich the future kingdom. And I actually really loved what Kale said about having one of the other apes say no. And I think it would be really interesting if, like, one of them, like, maybe even, like, let's say, the garbage ape, the gorilla who threw all the garbage on the ground. What if someone came up to him and was like, what are you doing? Pick it up. And then he was like, no. And then they were like, what? And that sends, like, the fascists into even more of a frenzy and kind of lights a fire under this underground rebellion that's really happening, right? Because now he's.

01:16:26
Sam
That that gorilla's been punished, and, like, now Cesar has to step up, because that gorilla has been punished and put down because he spoke, right? Like, he's. He's been murdered. And so it's, like, even clearer that we cannot be intelligent, we cannot be free, until we have power, which is such a good line. And. And so I think, like, those are basically the changes that I would make, and it would be within the ape hierarchy to kind of, like, be like, oh, this is, you know, other than, like, being like, maybe we go a little more subtle, which, like, you could do, but fuck it. This movie's amazing. Let it hit hard, and, yeah, let it be heavy handed. Let's. Let's. We're being heavy handed for the kids. We're gonna. This is a family movie. We're making sure the kids don't miss the point.

01:17:15
Sam
You know, you're powerful. Slavery bad. Yeah. Power to the workers. So, message received.

01:17:25
Kale
Universal income. Universal basic income.

01:17:29
Sam
Kate, your turn.

01:17:31
Case
Yeah, same. I like your concepts of having more of a hierarchy within the apes and starting to see how he sort of uses his intellect to shape them into a force that could actually rebel. I do like the scenes of them bringing all the tools and stuff in, those are pretty cool, like, building their arsenal and so forth. But it'd be fun if you start to see him kind of assign lieutenants to it all and build, you know.

01:17:53
Sam
Building some structure, like he's really Caesar, you know, like, he's really building his. You know, who. Who is going to. You know, who has the strength, who's going to be. My wisdom is, like, classic fantasy tropes. I want to see King Arthur's trope, like, court created right now, slightly just glimmers of it. Just glimmers it just, like, we got the colorful jumpsuits. That's what I like.

01:18:17
Case
Well, so, I mean, we're all kind of on similar pages. So one that I thought, or I was thinking about this thing, the ascendancy of ape intellect, I think, should be sort of focused more on, like, I like the moments where it's like, oh, look like the average intelligence score has gone up three points in the last year or something like that. I think those are, like, good kind of moments there. And if we don't want it to be the virus or. Or have it be tied in that way, I think that there is a really obvious element that this movie is missing that is hanging over its head and is supposed to be a part of every other version of this movie of this franchise, or at least up until this point, which is nuclear war. This movie is missing that directly.

01:19:01
Case
And I think that what we are miss what we should have had is at some point in the interim, there should have been some small nuclear exchange. And I think that should be the thing that, like, you could say that caused some sort of viral outbreak or, you know, irradiated virus or something that killed all the dogs and cats, and maybe that's part of it. And maybe you could set up that, like, oh, the exposure to radiation is causing apes to become smarter, maybe. Like, I don't mind the idea of a gorilla being the first one to say no. It could be aldo. It could be, you know, one. It can set up a villain for the. For battle, where they just reuse the name, and it could be a setup. So it stays with the lore, and he says no.

01:19:40
Case
And, like, they, you know, all the cops come and they kill this ape, but it's, you know, other apes have seen it, and it's starting to rise up. And, like, Caesar is moving kind of behind the scenes in that regard and takes the position of. Of it.

01:19:52
Sam
He could be Aldo's brother, and Aldo could revenge. Revenge him. Oh, gosh. I can't talk. Go ahead. Kay. Sorry.

01:20:00
Case
Well, I was kind of thinking it's sort of like that episode of Deep Space Nine where they go back time to, like, the riots in 2022.

01:20:05
Sam
Oh, yeah.

01:20:07
Case
And Cisco has to take the place of being the leader. But I think that having, like, some sort of, like, nuclear war being the justification for why they would need to shift towards having some sort of slave caste and like, to have some sort of, like, push towards, like, a fascistic society, I think that helps, like, kind of justify it in a way that's missing from this movie.

01:20:29
Kale
Yeah.

01:20:29
Case
I also don't think it needs to be just 20 years in the future. I feel like it could be 40. Like, I feel like they could. Like. Like, Ricardo Montemaan has, like, a grayish beard, but, like, he could have a stark white beard. Caesar could be a little bit older. Roddy McDowell is, like, 40 in this movie. So it's like him playing an 18 year old chimpanzee. He's just not that agile, and, like, that's no. That's no strike against him. He's just an adult. And, like, you know, you could just play him as being, like, a little bit older. Like, have Caesar be a little bit older, and it's like, yeah, that's why he's able to, like, insert himself as, like, an alpha member of the society or whatever kind of terms we want to use for it, but work with it that way.

01:21:07
Case
And then what were kind of talking about that I would like more striations in society. I think that the apes should be pushed against each other. Maybe gorillas are being used as sort of subservient security forces by the police. Maybe that's sort of why they get pushed into this cycle of violence that they would inherit in perpetuity. Maybe it'd be nice to see more of the orangutans being used for those kind of, like, those kind of administrative tasks. And maybe chimpanzees are being. I don't like that they're filing because they're not supposed to be able to read. Like, I think that's dumb, but I think if they're being used to, like, assemble stuff with their hands or thing, you know, like, work in factories to do all the kinds of jobs that, like, you need a certain.

01:21:45
Case
A modicum of intellect and nimbleness in your. Or, you know, dexterity. Like, you, like, go, like, put them to work in that kind of capacity.

01:21:52
Kale
Like, assembling guns.

01:21:54
Case
Yeah, maybe. Yeah, like, or whatever. And but if it's a wartime kind of state, that also makes sense why they'd be ramping up, like, production of weapons. So you have that going on there. And so that because the essential collapse of human society isn't because the apes rise up, the collapse of human society is because human goes to war with human, and apes just happen to be there to pick up the pieces when humanity has been wiped off the. Off the playing field. So, like, we do need to remind people that is the point of the first movie. And that's why I think that we should have those kind of nuclear exchanges there.

01:22:29
Case
I think that in this police state, we could still have a version of an aristocracy, that we could kind of see some manipulations going on between people, like, different factions, maybe, like, working with, trying to oppress the middle class, who are then middle class and lower classes, who are then being presented against the apes, who are being put in as they're slave replacements that are being pushed here so that these humans can then go off and be put to war or something like that, or being pushed toward the war effort. And now we have slave labor. It could be used to justify why we're gathering up all these apes from Africa and Asia. Oh, yeah, there is a small nuclear exchange, and we've taken over these territories and we're shipping them back to help with the war effort over here kind of thing.

01:23:14
Case
And I think it'd be kind of interesting if, like, yeah, we've got the governor, we've got his assistant, and we've got culp. And, like, culp is already kind of set up that way. Like, he's already this, like, spy master type character, who looks like he's trying to vie against MacDonald. So, like, I think that have more of that. Like, we have that one. I think it's misses Riley, Lisa's owner. Like, you know, we have some interesting cuts to her at, like, locations she's at. It would be nice to, like, show up a little bit more of that. Like, have. Have the idea that, like, there is this upper crust and maybe they don't even really pay attention to the apes. Like, they don't care. They don't think the apes are the threat.

01:23:48
Case
They're worried about this, like, nuclear war thing that's going on and the whole nuclear war thing. But they've got. It's this idea that classes in society don't see the ones that are too below or two above. You see the ones that are directly above and below you because they're the ones that impact you directly. And so maybe we have a lot of people who don't even realize until it's too late. They just casually, we're buying and selling apes or moving things around, creating circumstances for the apes to be in trouble, and they didn't even process that it could be a problem. You know, that's kind of reflected in rise with, like, the guy who runs the, like, pharmaceutical company. Like, he doesn't think that the apes are gonna have an uprising in it.

01:24:28
Case
And when they do, like, all of a sudden, it's a comeuppance. But, like, they were beneath his notice prior to. Aside from the fact that they were guinea pigs for a drug.

01:24:34
Sam
Yeah. The text in this movie actually already supports this, too, because at one point at the restaurant, one of the women say, I don't even think they're fun anymore now that I'm not afraid of them.

01:24:46
Case
I thought she was talking about cigarettes, but either way, like, yeah, like, this.

01:24:51
Sam
Idea that she was talking about the apes, like, because I took it as Frank is there and he's lighting things, and it's just like, ugh, they're like, whatever. They're just here. They always do what we tell them to do. They're not dangerous anymore. This future that people think is going to happen is not going to happen.

01:25:08
Case
Yeah, but I think them kind of just dismissing these slaves as being happy to be there. Like, they think, like, oh, we gave them. We gave them a cookie, and now they're good. And, like, they're, you know, they're. Isn't it so much better than if they were, like, still in their native Africa? Like, that. That's some real explicit text right there. So, yeah, I just think, like, have a little bit more infighting. Have, you know, have some infighting with the apes. Like, I thought it, like, while I like that Caesar bonds with orangutans at the beginning because it feels, like, set up for his relationship or at least the lawgiver relationship in the future stuff like the hierarchy of orangutans.

01:25:42
Case
Like, it would be interesting if Caesar was abused somewhat by apes that were already in this sort of, like, prison setup, because that is how, like, we put those kind of power structures in place. Like, we do make some of the job of at least enforcing social norms on other prisoners that we are abusing. And, like, that it's a chain that's going downwards from the highest up points. So, like, we've got these cops who are, you know, lower class citizens than this aristocracy, and their whole job is just to abuse these apes. And maybe the apes should be pitted against each other. It's the way, like, for example, the British were able to maintain rule over lots of places when they were doing their whole be in Britain thing.

01:26:28
Case
You know, like, one of the reasons why there's so much bad blood when we're looking at, like, India versus Pakistan is because they were using, they were pitting people that they had conquered against each other as a way of preventing the violence from going upwards. Instead, it was going laterally. And I think that we should see that reflected here. And I don't know if this movie was smart enough to have those kind of, you know, cultural history and whatnot is cumulative. Like, we have. We have more discussions. We are more aware of these discussions. The Internet has made it easier to have these discussions and to be, like, somewhat versed in terms of how oppression works.

01:27:08
Case
And I'm not sure how much work it would have been for Paul Den at the time to have gotten up there, but I feel like that's what we're trying to talk about here. I feel like it's not that novel to talk about how oppressive forces are going to pit their subjects against each other as a way of dividing and conquering and maintaining that power. And I think it would have been good to have that reflected in this movie because that's the one thing I think is really missing from this movie where it's like, what, aside from cops, are humans using to enforce the apes? And I think that there should be some manipulations going on, and I think that would help a lot.

01:27:44
Kale
Yeah. And, I mean, it would just lead into, like, that ending would be so much more powerful if by the end, all of the gorillas came together to do the thing. To do the fight.

01:27:55
Case
Yeah. And then to do the. Do the fight in reverse slow mo, because we didn't actually talk about that. One of the things they did to, like, have. Have the girl is not murder the guy. They just took the footage and reversed it.

01:28:06
Sam
Yes.

01:28:07
Case
The girls like, razor the rifles to kill him. And then they just, like, lower it and they. And then they cut away.

01:28:13
Sam
Yeah. It was amazing.

01:28:16
Kale
They love doing that because, like, in escape, the final scene is just the monkey going, like, just. They keep looping the same clip, like. Like doing a boomerang with it. Mama, mama. Like, yeah. Like, yeah. You could just see, like, some of the stuff they were doing backwards. Like, at one point, it looked like the apes were backing up instead of going forward because they used too much footage already of that.

01:28:40
Case
Yeah. I mean, low budget movie. They were. They were pulling out a lot of tricks just to get it to the 88 minutes. So, I don't know, take out one shot. Yeah. Like, I. All the speculation, I'm trying to keep it. Stuff that could have just been dialogue. I think there's only so much power that they had in terms of remaking this movie.

01:28:59
Kale
Yeah, I mean, I definitely, like, a lot of this stuff had to. Our issues had to be fixed in, like, pre production script level.

01:29:06
Sam
And honestly, did it need it? No, it was great. It was a great movie. Didn't need another pass at all.

01:29:12
Kale
Yeah. It hit the right amount of notes. It's just things that I like to write about, like class. I would like to see more representation, especially in, like, a seventies movie where, you know, it was there but not, like, totally on the forefront of people's minds like it is today. Yeah.

01:29:32
Case
I mean, again, like, this is a franchise I love. Like, even the worst of them I still will watch and enjoy. But this is not the worst of them. This is, like, pretty. That, you know, I don't feel like it's fair to compare the circus ones with these in terms of where they are in my hierarchy because it's kind of its own franchise. But of these five, conquest is very close to number two. It's either number two or it's number three. And it's a close number three because, again, the first one's just historic and monumental, and there's so many amazing things going on in the original planet of the Apes. And then escape is so fun and also is, like, this fun, you know, inverse of the first movie.

01:30:13
Case
And then you've got this one, which is so brutal and so, you know, like, so stark and, like, has such, like, the message is just there. The movie is this one message, and we're just gonna hit you home with it. And then you got beneath and battle, and neither of them are, you know, quite live up to the. The other three in the franchise, but, like, this one's just such a good one. And it's. It's wild and it's scary and it's, you know, or scary in the sense of, like, you know, it's scary incidents that are going on. Like, the visuals of it all of a chimpanzee standing before a city on fire as it, like, cackles about. The birth of the planet of the apes is a wild thing to end.

01:30:49
Case
Even theatrical cut on, regardless of if he said, like, oh, it'll be kind of nice to some of you.

01:30:55
Sam
Well, especially because, like, it is. It is such a strange tone shift, like when you watch it, because it's just like he gives this amazing speech, and that day is today. And then you just hear Liza go, no. And he goes, we'll be okay. God wants us to be kind. And it's like, wait, what? Like. And it's exactly like you said. Someone whispered, sir, you will also fail and die. Oh. Oh, well, then, right? Those of you who wish to become our slaves, we will be kind to you as our slaves. Because he doesn't say he's going to live in harmony or peace with the humans. He just says that they're going to be more humane to their slaves.

01:31:45
Case
Right.

01:31:46
Kale
Yeah. I'd love to see the test. Like, whatever that original test score audience was. I'd like to see the score of that. See if it's better or worse than Batgirl.

01:32:01
Case
I'm sure some of them were uncomfortable with the only heroic human figure being MacDonald.

01:32:05
Kale
Yeah. Especially in the seventies, early seventies.

01:32:08
Case
So sad that he doesn't continue. Like, they recast him in the next movie, but they don't recast him per se. It's his quote unquote brother. But he clearly is supposed. Clearly they wrote the part and just couldn't get Harry Rhodes to come back, which. Which sucks, because he does a great job in this movie. I think he's fantastic. We also didn't really, like, shout out some of the other performers. Like, we talked about how culp is, like, way more effective in this movie than in battle. But Don Murray as governor Breck apparently is fluent in German and wrote out all of his lines in German so that he could practice that delivery and then took the delivery and brought it back to the English.

01:32:47
Sam
Oh, wow.

01:32:48
Case
So that he could have it be more of a nazi cadence. And I'm like, that's really cool. Like, there's so much good stuff going on in this movie if you haven't seen it and you like the Planet of the Apes concept. Like, check this one out.

01:33:01
Sam
Yeah, it's.

01:33:02
Case
It's. It's a gut punch, but it's also only 90 minutes, so it's not like it's gonna be a huge investment on your time. It's just. It's just fucking wild and scary and crazy and is, you know.

01:33:16
Sam
And I loved it.

01:33:17
Case
Yeah. And you can't help but enjoy it because it's really good. Yeah, it's a good movie that was definitely made in 1972, but still a good movie.

01:33:27
Kale
Yeah. And it's just. It's one of those things. Like, it's further back in the catalog, like, you know, by the time you get through beneath or escape, you might not, like, want to go onto this, but you definitely should. Or, you know, just skip. Just skip beneath and then watch escape. And.

01:33:43
Sam
Yeah, yeah. You don't necessarily, you don't need to watch beneath to understand this one. And honestly, I mean, again, we've said that this is not like a solo type of movie, but if you really want to and you read the cliff notes or watch the trailer to escape, you can just watch this one because Armando will tell you exactly what happened and where you're standing in the first, like, ten minutes of the movie. So if you want to, you can. I think you should watch escape, but if you don't want to and you just want to watch this one, watch the last trailer and then just jump on in.

01:34:21
Kale
Yeah, just jump on it. Definitely watch this more people should watch this. It's definitely a really good watch, especially if it's like, 02:00 a.m. And you're like, oh, I got to do a podcast tomorrow.

01:34:32
Case
Yeah. I am curious for any listeners who have not watched any of the Planet of the Apes movies, if you've just never seen any of them and you're just, but you're a loyal listener and just have it on because, you know, like me, you don't like having a podcast downloaded that you haven't listened to yet on your player, and you just, like, want to check off the list. I'm curious if go. Go watch this one by itself. I'm very curious what your response is going to because, I don't know, I can't imagine just that scenario. And you, listener, can be part of this glorious experiment to do one of the craziest things I've ever described, which is, see conquest of the Planet of the Apes by itself.

01:35:10
Kale
That would be an interesting world. Like, imagine a world where you grew up, but your parents only had conquest as their only planet. The apes, VHS. What a wild world.

01:35:22
Case
Yeah, what a wild household to grow up in. That's like a real fight the power kind of house. Yeah, yeah. But this is why we're doing this retrospective on the planet of the Ace movies. We're going backwards from battle. We're now on Conquest. Next time we'll be talking about escape spoilers. But it's such a fun thing to look at this whole franchise. So, Kale, thank you for joining us for this conversation.

01:35:49
Kale
It's fun.

01:35:50
Case
So for people who want to find you and follow you, give all your plugs again. What you got going on?

01:35:55
Kale
So twitch tv kale writer this week I should be getting back to a normal schedule since I just, I think this will be like my fourth week at my new job. So just started and I was like, getting all that stuff together and had to do a bunch of stuff. But yeah, follow me there. Follow me alrider on Twitter and then on Instagram and TikTok. I sometimes do crazy things like, you can watch the best clip in Planet of the apes on my TikTok right now. Yeah, just follow me there. I do a lot of, especially on TikTok and Twitch, I do a lot of talk like this, analyzing movies or talking about what's going on in the business. Again, the HBO Max stuff. I got on such a high soapbox about that. We're still hearing all the bullshit that's coming through with that.

01:36:47
Kale
So that's fun. But, yeah, just find me there.

01:36:51
Case
Yeah, everyone should check that out, and everyone should find your isolated clip of, quote unquote, the best scene in Planet of the apes for some private time.

01:37:00
Sam
I'm going to think of Kale when we watch that movie in a couple of weekends. So, yeah, I hope the listeners will be thinking about Kale as well.

01:37:10
Case
Yeah, yeah, when we review it, if the listeners aren't thinking about Kale, they might be thinking about you, Sam. Where can they find you and follow you?

01:37:18
Sam
They can find me here at another pass and they can find me on our discord server. If you want to come and tell us, if you watch this movie all on its lonesome, please, I hope you.

01:37:30
Case
Exist and I hope this happens. I can, I can't express that enough.

01:37:33
Sam
Please watch it. Please let us know. I will actually start checking just so I don't miss it, because I want to know. Other than that, you know, I'm just, you know, doing monotonous work for my overlords, and I am unavailable. And so if you have anything to complain about any of anything I said or anything else, that you can turn to my supreme overlord case and find.

01:37:58
Case
Him at, well, you can find me on Twitter at case aiken. You can find the show on Twitter at another pass. You can find more episodes of this show and so many other great shows@certainpov.com. Such as, I'm going to give a shout out because this weekend they're doing a panel that we're recording this, which is fun and games with Matt and Jeff. Matt, Jeff, and this weekend, Rachel, Corki, Shank are all doing a panel at FlameCon. So that's a cool shout out. And also tells you when we recorded this versus how many months from now when this episode actually drops, I was going to say, but fun and games is a great show where they have conversations about gaming, about the industry, about all these facets of it without just being a review or a hype machine kind of focus.

01:38:39
Case
It's more about an introspective look at the video game industry. So check that out. And then in addition to their bi weekly episodes, they do sidequests where people get to gush about video game that really meant something to them. That's also, you know, some really awesome things to look at. We now have animated versions of a lot of them. I think I just finished working on the 90th episode to be animated at this point. The show's at like, 160 now. And that is that you can find on our YouTube channel, where you can also find, like, tons of cool clips that we're putting out for this show. For Men of Steel, we're putting out Superman analog videos. So check out our YouTube channel and then head back over to certainpov.com where you can find the next episode of this show.

01:39:18
Case
Now, I already spoiled it, but Sam, what are we talking about next time?

01:39:21
Sam
Next time we'll be talking about escape from the planet of the apes. But until then, you know, if you enjoyed this, pass it on.

01:39:34
Kale
Thanks for listening to certain point of views. Another past podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com.

01:39:47
Sam
Another pass as a certain pov production. Our hosts are Sam Alicia and Case Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm. Our logo and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our intro theme is by Vin Macri, and our outro theme is by Matt Brogan.

01:40:03
Case
All right, yeah, let's do that. Clap so we don't forget like we did last time.

01:40:07
Sam
To be fair, we've only forgotten once, so.

01:40:09
Case
Right. But it was the previous planet of the ace one where, yeah, we got to the break, we're like, oh, we said we would clap, but we never did.

01:40:18
Sam
I was just like, hey, Case, we didn't clap so bad on case. I remembered too late.

01:40:25
Case
Yeah, Matt, I'm the bad one in all circumstances. Blame me, not Sam. Case is the bad one.

01:40:31
Sam
I'm sure that Matt agrees with that. I don't even need to hear his response. I can hear it in my head. So, yeah. Doctor Zaeus. Doctor Zaeus. Sorry, can't do that.

01:40:44
Kale
Doctor Zaeus's fungal foot cream. Get it now.

01:40:48
Case
Can I play the piano anymore? Well, of course you can. Well, I couldn't before.

01:40:55
Kale
And thus became the foot fungus craze of the animal kingdom, brought down to you because of escape. That fucking CGI doctor, Zeus. Oh, my God, I love that dude.

01:41:08
Case
Yeah, we didn't talk about it because it's, like, not part of this movie. It's just, like a weird thing for the Blu ray, but, like, yeah, I love him.

01:41:15
Kale
I want him to sing me a lullaby to sleep every night so I can have gorgeous nightmares of his face.

01:41:22
Case
Cpov certainpov.com.