Another Pass at Escape from the Planet of the Apes

The original Planet of the Apes was a landmark film that has remained entrenched in the zeitgeist to this day. The immediate follow up was... not. So how do you course correct the franchise? Flip the script and ask audiences to question how we would handle it if the roles were reversed! Case and Sam are joined by Maynard Bangs from the Reels of Justice podcast to discuss the closest the Planet of the Apes franchise ever got to being a comedy: Escape from the Planet of the Apes!

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Meeting summary:

●      The meeting focused on a detailed analysis of the film "Escape from the Planet of the Apes", discussing its themes, characters, plot structure, commercial success, and its place within the larger franchise. Guest Maynard Bangs from the Reels of Justice podcast provided insights, leading to discussions on potential improvements, continuity, and the cyclical nature of the franchise. The meeting concluded with remarks on future episodes and Maynard's new YouTube projects. Action items included analyzing the impact of a character's death on the film and researching 1970s film trailers.

Notes:

●      🎬 Introduction and Overview (00:01 - 01:06)

●      Introduction to the podcast episode and hosts.

●      Discussion on the Planet of the Apes series, focusing on 'Escape from the Planet of the Apes.'

●      Introduction of guest Maynard Bangs from the Reels of Justice podcast.

●      📚 Reels of Justice Podcast (01:29 - 02:26)

●      Maynard explains the concept of the Reels of Justice podcast.

●      Discussion on the format and purpose of the podcast.

●      🐒 Planet of the Apes Franchise (02:27 - 04:45)

●      Discussion on the Planet of the Apes franchise's mixed quality.

●      Maynard's personal connection to the franchise.

●      Analysis of 'Escape from the Planet of the Apes' as a pivotal film in the series.

●      🎥 Film Analysis (04:46 - 08:05)

●      Detailed analysis of 'Escape from the Planet of the Apes.'

●      Discussion on the film's budget and production constraints.

●      Examination of the film's themes and narrative structure.

●      🦧 Character Discussions (08:06 - 12:00)

●      Analysis of characters Cornelius, Zira, and Doctor Milo.

●      Discussion on the performances of Roddy McDowell and Kim Hunter.

●      Examination of the character arcs and their impact on the story.

●      🕵️ Thematic Elements (12:01 - 16:00)

●      Exploration of the film's commentary on 1970s society.

●      Discussion on the film's reflection of human behavior and societal norms.

●      Analysis of the film's darker themes and their execution.

●      🔍 Plot and Structure (16:01 - 20:30)

●      Discussion on the film's plot structure and pacing.

●      Analysis of the film's opening scene and its effectiveness.

●      Examination of the film's third act and its impact on the overall narrative.

●      🎭 Character Dynamics (20:31 - 24:00)

●      Discussion on the dynamics between Cornelius, Zira, and Doctor Milo.

●      Analysis of the film's portrayal of human-ape interactions.

●      Examination of the film's depiction of societal acceptance and rejection.

●      🛠️ Potential Improvements (24:01 - 29:04)

●      Suggestions for improving Doctor Milo's character arc.

●      Discussion on the feasibility of adding more action sequences.

●      Analysis of the film's marketing and trailer strategies.

●      🎞️ Film's Tone and Genre (29:05 - 39:48)

●      Discussion on the film's tone as a comedy-drama.

●      Analysis of the film's balance between light-hearted and dark themes.

●      Examination of the film's impact on the overall franchise.

●      📈 Commercial Success (39:49 - 50:52)

●      Discussion on the film's commercial success and audience reception.

●      Analysis of the film's budget and box office performance.

●      Examination of the film's legacy within the franchise.

●      🧩 Continuity and Timeline (50:53 - 01:01:41)

●      Discussion on the film's continuity within the franchise.

●      Analysis of the timeline presented in the film and its implications.

●      Examination of potential continuity issues and their resolutions.

●      🔄 Cyclical Nature of the Franchise (01:01:42 - 01:13:44)

●      Discussion on the cyclical nature of the Planet of the Apes franchise.

●      Analysis of how 'Escape from the Planet of the Apes' sets up future films.

●      Examination of the film's role in the larger narrative arc.

●      🎙️ Podcast and YouTube Projects (01:13:45 - 01:23:01)

●      Maynard discusses his new YouTube projects, 'Fix It in Five' and 'Trailer Trashed.'

●      Explanation of the concepts and goals of these projects.

●      Encouragement for listeners to check out these new ventures.

●      🎧 Closing Remarks (01:23:02 - 01:32:48)

●      Final thoughts on 'Escape from the Planet of the Apes.'

●      Discussion on the next episode focusing on 'Beneath the Planet of the Apes.'

●      Closing remarks and thanks to the guest.

Transcription

00:00
Case Aiken
But when we come back from a break, we'll then give the pitches on, like, how we would have improved the movie at the time. But I'm really curious what we'll say about this one, because it's good.

00:11
Maynard
Don't worry. I've said bad things about plenty of good movies.

00:15
Case Aiken
Well, the goal isn't to be negative. We even did a regular episode on Titanic where it's just like, excuse me.

00:20
Maynard
That'S not your goal, Case.

00:25
Sam
We know where we stand now.

00:30
Maynard
Welcome to certain povs, another pass podcast.

00:33
Case Aiken
With Case and Sam, where we take.

00:34
Maynard
Another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed.

00:38
Case Aiken
Let's see how we could have fixed them. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another past podcast. I'm Case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my coast, Sam Alizea.

00:47
Sam
Hi.

00:47
Case Aiken
And listeners, you know what you're in for at this point, because we are two movies down. We're moving on to number three in the Planet of the Apes series, and that means we are talking about escape from the Planet of the Apes. And to have a conversation about this movie, we are joined by Maynard bangs from the Reels of Justice podcast.

01:06
Maynard
Hello. I tried to do it like Sam did.

01:09
Sam
It was a good. No, it was a wonderful attempt.

01:11
Maynard
It wasn't as good.

01:12
Sam
I'm gonna give it like an eight out of a ten. Not bad, but it's pretty good. It was pretty good.

01:16
Maynard
That means it's really a six. When someone says it's eight, it's six.

01:18
Sam
Oh, not at all. When I say it's Nate, it's innate.

01:21
Case Aiken
I mean, very much a monkey see, monkey do situation here, escape from the.

01:25
Maynard
Planet of the eights.

01:29
Case Aiken
So for listeners who are not familiar with your show and didn't listen to the time that I guessed it on it, talking about Elien, three, what is reels of justice?

01:37
Maynard
We are an official fake movie court. So every week we do a different movie, and we have a guest on who either defends or prosecutes the film for being a bad movie. And one of our co hosts acts as we alternate and go around, and somebody is often a either defense or prosecutor. They fill in the other side, and then the other three of us pretend to be judge and jury, and we sort of role play the whole thing. It's a very silly sort of debate court, but basically it's based on every movie is two sides. There's always something bad you can say about any good movie, and there's always something good you can say about any bad movie. But the point is to prove that the movie is bad. So mediocre movies get off.

02:22
Case Aiken
Yeah. Innocent until proven bad.

02:25
Maynard
Innocent. Yep. Until proven awful, which I don't think.

02:28
Case Aiken
Is going to be the case with today's movie. No, the Planet of the Apes movies are a mixed bag, but certainly in the better range of that all. Look, I love this franchise completely. This fucking movie I love. Escape is such a wild ass movie. I can't believe they made it. It's the reason why this franchise works for me, frankly. Because you've got the first one, which is great, and then you've got the second one, which we're going to talk about next time, and it's terrible, and then you've got this one. And this is why there's a franchise.

02:59
Maynard
Yeah. Yeah, I definitely think so. Especially because it got more affordable with this one.

03:04
Case Aiken
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

03:05
Maynard
They're like micro budget. Yes, exactly. And they're like, we can make these on micro budgets and people will still see them.

03:10
Case Aiken
So, Maynard, what is your association with the Planet of the Apes franchise?

03:14
Maynard
Well, I currently live on Earth, which, as we know, is the planet of the Apes.

03:18
Case Aiken
Yes.

03:19
Maynard
But I always grew up seeing the original one. I think I saw the Marky mark one in theaters, too, but I mainly only ever really saw the original one. And then one day I went through the whole series. I've only seen the rest of the series besides escape once. Escape. This was actually my second time seeing escape. So, yeah, I don't have, like, a huge relationship with them. I do like them a lot. I think this one is. Is one of the more clever ones as far as what they were gonna do with it. It's. It's definitely the next best movie after the first.

03:53
Case Aiken
Yeah, certainly of the original five. It's like, it's weird to insert the new ones because they have such a different level of quality and financial backing and just, you know, a crazy pedigree in general.

04:03
Maynard
And there is essentially a remake of. Of the. The last three in the series.

04:08
Case Aiken
Yeah, in a lot of ways. Yeah.

04:10
Maynard
So they especially. They essentially kind of go over that ground again.

04:13
Case Aiken
Yeah. It's every single time I'm gonna be like, oh, it's a wonderful time loop between all these movies. I do want to bring up talking about this movie. This is third movie syndrome, which. Maynard, this is my hypothesis that third movies in sequences often are trying to reflect the first movie after the second one, regardless of if it was successful or not, deviated in some ways. And talking about escape from the planet of the Apes, if you're not familiar with this movie audience. This is the one where it flips the script from the original movie where instead of it being a human in a society full of apes, they take apes from the future and bring them back in time and put it in our society and have them play out, effectively a mirrored version of the story from the first one.

04:57
Maynard
Yeah. Yep. That's exactly the brilliance of it is partially. It is mirrored, right. Because when the apes get to earth in the modern day, when Cornelius and Zura, I think of Zira and Doctor Milo get here, all the humans are really nice to them. That's the unusual thing, is they are overly kind to these talking creatures that they probably should have locked up from the get and tried to lobotomize and dissect and figure out. But instead they treat them, I mean, way different than the way Taylor is treated in the first movie.

05:36
Case Aiken
Right.

05:36
Maynard
I mean, Taylor's not put up in a hotel. You know, he's not. He's not interviewed by all the social magazines and brought to big parties and brought to boxing matches and all that. So in that case, it's. It. That one's an absolute mirror in that it kind of flips to the negative.

05:54
Sam
Yeah. I mean, I think, like, it does make sense, though, that they do that because, you know, when Peter arrives, they kind of have, like, an idea, right, of like, what they believe humans are like. And, you know, they are shocked that he has speech. But, like, for the people in the seventies that these apes are going back to, this is a novelty. And what would they do? Of course, they would parade them around. I'm surprised there wasn't like a. Like a night show kind of thing, you know, kind of thing. So it's just one of those things.

06:26
Maynard
Yeah. I mean, I don't know, they might. They might treat them like a freak attraction.

06:30
Case Aiken
I think ultimately that would have been their fate if the movie doesn't take the darker turn at the very end.

06:35
Maynard
Yeah. The point is, if there's probably a million parallel universes where this exact same thing happened, this is the only one that they live as long as they do. And this timeline gets to kick off because then all of the other ones, they're being lobotomized, they're being dissected, they're being burned at the stake, they're being persecuted as devils or aliens or something. You know, the revelation they make in the middle when they realize that they dissect humans in their time, all the scientists kind of politicians are very nonchalant. Well, that's no different than we treat animals now. That's not the way humans behave. Humans, if, like when humans do not think humans deserve to be treated like animals, like we are special, we're made by God, we have souls. That's, that's the popular consensus. So it's like, oh, these soulless apes dissected humans.

07:22
Maynard
Even in a weird future, they'd be furious. The public would absolutely throw them under the bus at that point.

07:29
Case Aiken
Yeah, if that had fully come out. And I mean, there is Doctor Hasslein, who is not very open to the idea of like, being the grand masters of the world and experimenting on humans.

07:41
Maynard
He's the human Zaius. Absolutely. But also he's completely right. The thing about hassling is he's completely right. These apes are here, they're intelligent, they're pregnant. They're talking about coming from a future where apes have taken over. And he's absolutely right. Kill the unborn ape baby. Sterilize these two because they're going to potentially lead to our downfall. He doesn't know that it's a nuclear war and all that stuff. It's not the information he got. He thinks the apes overthrow man, right. Rather than man destroying man. And the apes step in. But with the information he has, he's totally right. His behavior is justified, which is kind.

08:20
Case Aiken
Of crazy because that is like Doctor Zaeus in a certain regard. Like, he is aware that humanity did so much damage to themselves and is trying to paternalistically control his society, but protect them in that regard. Even if Zeus was right, a monster, the way he goes about it.

08:37
Maynard
Agree to disagree.

08:38
Case Aiken
Well, I mean, like, it's a complicated thing there because he does really bad stuff to Taylor specifically. They have this futuristic, very theocratic, very conservative society. And I think that deliberately this movie is trying to look at that depiction that we got in the original and trying to then reflect it on our society specifically and kind of like trying to cast shade on like seventies liberalism. Like there's this element of, it's like, okay, well, we are accepting of them as long as they're safe. But once we know that they're pregnant and that this is part of this whole sequence that's going to lead to our downfall, aside from the batshit scene of the president being like, I don't know about due process and all this, where I'm like, real presidents wouldn't do that.

09:24
Case Aiken
They would just be like, yeah, no, go for it, kill him. They put up a little.

09:28
Maynard
Well, I think as a political move, I buy it right where he's like, elections. Elections in November, you stupid country. He's like, you know, if they're. If they're not going to overthrow the planet in my term, then I don't care.

09:43
Sam
Right, right. And our villain does make a point. Like, well, we don't care, you know, about. He brings up a bunch of stuff we don't care about. Nuclear things. We don't care about, you know, climate. We don't care about anything. We keep leaving things off. And he's like, this is the one thing on this list that he can get done now.

10:01
Case Aiken
Right?

10:01
Sam
Kill the baby ape.

10:03
Maynard
Yeah, exactly.

10:04
Case Aiken
Yeah. Like, I think that the apes would have ended up as, like some kind of freak show had they been sterilized but left to live. At the end of the song. I think that was supposed to be like, yeah. Like, we like to think of ourselves as kinder than the society of the apes in the planet of the Apes. We'd like to think of ourselves as less destructive. And I think that this movie is trying to be like, look at how inviting we seem until we are threatened, and then we are just as brutal and scary as the apes that were condemning in the first one. It's the way that the first movie is trying to reflect human society. This movie is then, like, making a second reflection point.

10:40
Maynard
Yeah, yeah. It's an uncanny universe that we're dropped into, for sure. Because, like you said, yeah, we have a level headed, nice president, we have society people who are actually willing to spend time with evolved apes. We have. I know I had a third example, but I can't remember right now. But even when the ape kills someone, right, they're never gonna go after him. Oh, that was it. We have Ricardo Montabon at the end. Apparently the kindest circus owner in the whole world. Like, the only person who runs a circus and cares about animals. And it's like, do you know what circuses are, sir? It's just. It's an uncanny world.

11:27
Sam
What I really love about him is just how willing and ready he is for his ape overlords. Like, he is. Like, I hope that if you are to take over the earth, that, like, I am ruled by a creature like you. And I was like, wow, that is accepting, sir. That is. Yeah, that is. Wow, that is something.

11:49
Maynard
Hi, for one, welcome our new ape overlords.

11:51
Sam
Yeah, exactly. I was like, hey, I mean, I feel like it really stems from a feeling of, like, hating people more. And I. That's a mood, and I get it. And he's just like, listen, you can't fuck stuff up more than we already have. So, yeah, maybe there is a time for leadership change.

12:09
Maynard
But he owns a circus. He doesn't own, like, animal sanctuary. He traps animals in cages and displays them to people for top dollar.

12:18
Sam
Yeah, but the born in captivity, so he's doing something right. I mean, in a circus, not a zoo. So he must be doing something right. It's the most humane zoo in the world.

12:29
Maynard
Yeah. Yeah.

12:30
Case Aiken
He totally would be like, tiger King if this was made today.

12:33
Maynard
Like, yeah, that would be sweet. That would be cool.

12:36
Case Aiken
Yeah. Some kind of, like, ape sanctuary. But it's also, like, you can pay to come see him. Everyone, here's all my chimpanzees.

12:42
Maynard
Yeah, exactly.

12:44
Case Aiken
Watching this after watching conquest, like, in our reverse order, watching it made me appreciate all the things that, like, Montalban is doing to be this sort of, like, huckster, kind of, like, emphasizing specific points to make people pay less attention to him where, like, when he goes on his whole tear about being, like, the first chimpanzee born in a circus, like, he does the same stuff in. In the following movie, and it's the. It's for the same effect. It's him, like, really boasting about this, like, one detail that no one cares about at all so that people stop asking him questions because he's just going to drone on about a thing that they don't care about, even though he actually does know the answers to the questions that they are trying to ask. But he's deflecting. And I love the performance from Maltaban.

13:27
Case Aiken
He's such, like, a wonderful addition to this franchise.

13:30
Sam
Agreed.

13:31
Maynard
Yeah, no, he's. It's definitely a great performance and a centric performance, but, you know, it's interesting that it's a. That it's a circus owner and not like, a Diane Fosse type character, like, someone who thinks so much of apes. I just don't think we associate circuses with kindness and gentleness to animals.

13:53
Case Aiken
I think their pr was a lot better at this point.

13:55
Sam
Yeah, that's true.

13:57
Maynard
PR may have been better, but I bet the treatment was even worse.

14:02
Case Aiken
Probably. Probably. But this movie exists in a world where, like, screenwriters are writing about how they perceive things. Again, there's also this vibe of, like. But the principles of the United States of America, we can't kill them without due process kind of stuff.

14:14
Sam
I laughed out loud during that.

14:17
Maynard
Yeah, no, it is. It is funny. Yeah. I'm not sure what kind of president that was supposed to be and doesn't even strike me that as much of a president, like, would this hein, Doctor Heinle, really get to get in to see the president? You know, is he that high up? And if he is that high up, you know, is he a member of the chief of staff? In which case, if he recommends to waste the apes, they're going to waste him.

14:40
Case Aiken
Yeah.

14:40
Sam
Yeah. I mean, he. Didn't they say that he was like in conjunction with the CIA, that he was doing the interrogation?

14:46
Maynard
Yeah. Like he somehow got the job. He was put on that council in the beginning. Yeah.

14:51
Case Aiken
He's some kind of science advisor. And he's actually a callback to the first movie where they reference Hasline's theory of time travel and how it plays with relativity. So they specifically were trying to allude to a scientist that Taylor was already aware of. So clearly he was fairly high ranking.

15:07
Maynard
I dug the explanation of regressive perspective with the painting and the painter who paints the painting and he steps back. He's got to paint himself over and over. I thought that was. That was a pretty cool explanation for it and basically explains why Hasslein can see this cyclical sort of potential future that he. That we could be racing towards.

15:32
Case Aiken
Yeah. And this movie, unlike every other movie in the franchise, is actually has sequel bait at the end. So it's. It is actually a movie that is anticipating having some kind of story to follow up from it.

15:44
Maynard
But it could. It could live in its vacuum. Right.

15:47
Case Aiken
Yeah.

15:47
Maynard
Because after little Milo is born, we know what's gonna happen. You know, we. We know what's logic and happen. They told us in the. In the interview about the whole animal. So, like, you don't need another movie. You know what's gonna happen at the end of this one. So the other ones are a little unnecessary, but if they want to elaborate some stuff.

16:07
Case Aiken
Yeah. I mean, I end up liking conquest a lot, even if it, like, speeds up the timetable in a way that doesn't really make sense. Even in the most. Even with all the time travel shenanigans, it's, like, impossible to understand how you get to conquest in 1993. But still, whatever, it's true. This movie could also just be the end point. And just, like, leaving it hanging, you're like, all right, yeah. In like 200, 300 years or whatever, it's going to eventually sort of map out that way. And I really like the explanation for the planet of the apes that we get in this movie. Like, the idea that we would have hundreds of years of apes as pets because we need pets and they like, talk about humanity's own, like, flaws in that regard. Like, I really like being, like, people.

16:52
Case Aiken
Just, like, they'll kill each other, but they need to have a pet dog or, you know, they won't harm the dog. Yeah, I really like that. Being cast at our society and then this explanation of, like, yeah, and eventually, once we realize that we can exploit them, we will start exploiting them. And, like, that whole buildup over hundreds of years, I think is really cool. Like, I think that the fact that none of the planet, none of the other planet ace movies have really, like, had, like, here's a logical explanation without requiring, like, some sort of virus that cures Alzheimer's but also kills people. Or here's, you know, time traveling ape from the future who's bringing his super smart genes, and it's just like, going out there in the world.

17:33
Case Aiken
Like, this is the only one where it's like, here is a rational enough progression, especially considering the idea that apes just fill in for where were initially. Like, they're not innovating, at least for a while. Like, that the chimpanzees might actually start having real science, but at first it was just like, yeah, the human I was serving had me go into the factory and working, so now I'm going into the factory and working. And then the foreman just, like, saw a human shouting at workers. So he's shouting at his workers the same way, kind of stuff.

18:01
Maynard
Yeah. Enough of human culture had to exist for the apes of the planet of the Apes to have mirrored it, to observed it, and to have aped it. I think that's a phrase. And, you know, that's what they're doing. They're aping human behavior because it's what they've seen. So enough must have been passed down orally. I think the apes do have writing, so. And written that they understand how they should behave as a society in the wrong ways, maybe, but the apes that.

18:33
Case Aiken
We actually are with are very much the best examples of that society. We're going backwards. So we've spent some time with Caesar, but this is actually our first time looking at Roddy MacDowell as Cornelius and our first time getting Kim Hunter as Zira in our series here. But it's obviously the tail end for their appearances in the franchise, and they make this movie.

18:54
Maynard
Yes. This is sort of the way I thought about it, is Planet of the Apes is kind of Sodom and Gomorrah if you're going to destroy the world, like, who from that planet should live to go on? Who should be spared. And it's like, yeah, Cornelius and Zero are definitely your examples of the two that should go on, the two that are worthy. You can drop a stone on the rest of them.

19:17
Case Aiken
Yeah. I mean, Cornelius especially is very sympathetic as an archaeologist. He was intellectually inquisitive without it being the ickier side of the sciences of the future timeline, whereas Zira being someone who's okay with dissecting creatures and so forth, is a little more questionable. And I think this movie does a lot to sort of. She feels so alone and in need of companionship in this time. Even though she has Cornelius, she doesn't like lying and she doesn't want. It's her having come to realize that humanity has value and being kind of ashamed of it. She might be a little casual when she references that. She dissected plenty, but I think she has learned her lesson and is going through this arc in this movie of wanting to find a place here and then being rejected by humanity.

20:06
Case Aiken
Like I said, once she becomes dangerous, once she becomes the mother of the eight messiah.

20:11
Sam
Yeah. In that way, she also ends up, by the end, like, being embittered by it. You know, there's a moment where she goes, it smells like humans, and Courtney's is like, you really don't like them. And she's like, we've been here for not that long, and we've met so many people, and I only trust three. And I think it's very interesting. Like, there's an entire arc for her. Right. She comes here, she's just very matter of fact, feel bad about this, and by the end of it, she's like, I don't know. I don't know if I feel totally bad about it.

20:45
Maynard
Yeah. When someone imprisons you and then tries to hunt you down and kill your.

20:48
Sam
Baby and sterilize you. Yeah.

20:51
Maynard
It might sway your opinion a bit. Yeah. But I still think there's the ambiguity whether what zero did was wrong. I mean, these were considered to be lesser creatures that were being sacrificed to save the lives of apes, you know, to them who had souls and had purpose. And, you know, we've. We've. We've killed countless animals in. In the name of science to save human lives. You know, we've shot plenty of animals into space. You know, all of that is based on this idea that the human life is more valuable than anyone else. And I'd say in the ape society, it's the same thing. The ape life is more valuable than anyone else.

21:32
Maynard
I think even from the beginning, she doesn't like the humans beaten stuff, but she has no problem with them dying for a good cause, for the gain of knowledge and science.

21:43
Case Aiken
Yeah, yeah. I think she comes off as very sympathetic in that regard. While the planet of the Apes franchise, generally speaking, doesn't have heroes, they'll have protagonists, but everyone has some kind of moral ambiguities, some kind of flaws. Cornelius kills a guy in this movie. Sure, it's an accident, but he kills a guy and it's not a huge trigger for him. Obviously, he's stressed. Obviously he is very, like, there's a lot of things going on, but it's a fairly innocuous comment. And he shoves this guy into the wall and crushes his skull. Again, not on purpose, but every character, even the most sympathetic ones, have moments of darkness to them, areas where they have failed. You know, Taylor is not a good guy in the first movie. He's just trapped and alone. And we sympathize with him. But I love these characters.

22:36
Case Aiken
Like, we haven't really talked about Kim Hunter yet. This is our first time seeing her in one of these movies in this since we're going in the reverse order. But she is fantastic. Like, her performance as Zira is so great. Like, her, like, doing all the different tests and, like, finally deciding to speak and having that be, like, such a big moment. There's great stuff. I like, I just. I think she's incredible. Like, I think that her performance really sells it. And then her relationship with Cornelius, played by Roddy McDowell, now actually playing his original part as opposed to his. His own son. Like, they're so charming. You understand why people love them. Like, in the court scene, like, it's in the trailer. It's in it all over. But, like, every thing that talks about this movie is, like, can he speak also?

23:17
Case Aiken
Only when she lets me. Great fucking line.

23:19
Maynard
Yeah, that's a very funny line. But you look at this putty in.

23:23
Case Aiken
Their hands at that point.

23:24
Maynard
Yeah, but you look at it compared to the first one and, you know, when Taylor speaks, it blows all the apes minds. I don't know if it blows the humans minds quite as much as, like, as I think it would. And immediately the end. When going back to the apes, they were immediately incredulous that Taylor's actually speaking. It's a trick. He's. It's. It's. It's either ventriloquism or you've simply taught him to ape sounds, but he absolutely can't think. But the humans don't have any kind of doubt like, that. They're like, oh, they're talking. They can even testify for themselves in that court. Whereas Taylor was not allowed to testify for himself in court in the original movie.

24:06
Case Aiken
Well, I mean, kind of because they are primed, like the congressional board that's witnessing it. It's like, oh, no, they have acquired the power of speech. So it's not out of the blue. It's not like Taylor's situation where he's, like, running in the, you know, running around and, like, says it in front of, like, just the public. Unprompted.

24:23
Sam
Yeah, it's like the scientist has already uncovered it. And so the, although he admits it right there in front of the general council, because I think they have a human vouching. You know, it's like that kind of thing. Like a human's like, no, it's really them.

24:38
Case Aiken
Well, and then they also try to be like, oh, it's just a parroting kind of situation. And actually, chimpanzees have been taught to have to make sounds that are like a parrot. It's just they can't make a huge range. And as far as we can tell, they don't understand what they're actually saying when we've done it.

24:55
Maynard
But the skepticism of the apes is much higher than the skepticism of the humans.

25:00
Case Aiken
But also then the ones who they first speak to when Zira says, I loathe bananas, those are this movie's equivalent of Cornelius and Zira. And they, in the first movie, while Taylor wasn't able to speak physically because he had injured his throat, they were receptive to Taylor writing notes pretty quickly. So I think we end up with these sort of parallel scenarios. And like I said, I think this movie is trying to be like, at first, humanity seems way more accepting of them only to turn around and basically do the same thing. It's just they have this veneer. It's like the pride month discussion with businesses where it's just like, all of a sudden there's rainbow flags and so forth.

25:39
Case Aiken
But it's at the same time, but it's like, also capitalism is crushing you kind of moments where it's like the hypocrisy of trying to appear so congenial and forward thinking and progressive, but at the same time being like, oh, but we want to crush the unions and have our business interests. I think this movie is trying to condemn humanity, being like, oh, if you didn't realize that you're being on display in the first movie, we're going to pull that back and it's just going to be fully on. Here's human society as good as you think it is. And they're still shitty.

26:12
Sam
Yeah, I can see that. Also, I just want to say just because, you know, we talked about humans just loving how the apes were embracing and becoming sideshows. I loved the getting close scene. I loved the classic trying things on. And I just. I love that. That's so fucking weird. And I appreciate that's in this movie.

26:37
Maynard
Yeah, the montage. That's what, like, that's the tone of this movie. That's why they can't dissect them. And it's not darker. It's. It's a comedy.

26:46
Case Aiken
Right.

26:46
Maynard
This, this is distinctly a comedy until it has sort of a bleak ending. But it's. It's absolutely supposed to be a funny movie.

26:54
Case Aiken
Yeah. And they're. They are so fucking charming. Like Cornelius, like I said, constantly. Yeah, he's great at that. Like when, like Doctor Cornelius, what do you think of our women? Very human, like, great lines. Like. And it shows his.

27:08
Maynard
What's your favorite fruit? Grape.

27:10
Case Aiken
Right?

27:10
Sam
Yeah.

27:14
Case Aiken
I like that. Also noting that, like, we never really saw them having, like, drinks in the future. Like, it was this kind of, like I said, theocratic state. So it kind of feels puritanical in a lot of regards. So it would make sense that Zayas or whatever sort of orangutan authority that kind of was trying to keep apes from finding out too much about vice and so forth, like, are. Would have restricted that access to those kind of things. So it makes sense that zero wouldn't have had alcohol up until that point.

27:40
Maynard
But I mean, I. I mean, I guess it's the seventies, but they should know enough not to give alcohol to a pregnant ape.

27:47
Case Aiken
Oh, yeah. Oh, God. That's. That whole scene that right there is fucked up because he knows she's pregnant. It's not even. Like he's not aware of it. Yeah, he knows more about, like, it. It's understandable that she would not know that wine is bad for you when you are pregnant. It is. But Hasslein knows and he's definitely doing that just to put her in a situation where she can rat stuff out. And because he's kind of okay if the baby has complications as a result of being fed alcohol.

28:12
Sam
Yeah.

28:13
Maynard
He says it's good for the baby. I think after he gives it to her.

28:16
Sam
Yeah, he does. Like, he's totally encouraging it. Yes. Babies love this. It's good for the baby. What a jerk. It's perfect. He's perfect.

28:24
Maynard
Yeah. Baby's like red wine over white. I can tell you that much.

28:27
Case Aiken
Yeah. Grape juice, baby.

28:29
Maynard
They don't like the sparkling, the bubbles. Yeah. Give them gas.

28:33
Case Aiken
Yeah. They like bubble baths, not bubble drinks.

28:36
Maynard
Yes.

28:37
Case Aiken
Yeah.

28:37
Sam
That should be on a plaque somewhere for new mothers.

28:42
Case Aiken
But, but yeah, I mean, like, talking about the first half of the movie, it's so light and charming in general. There's also. Their friend is just murdered in front of them early in the movie, so there is that. But like, the whole sequence of them, just as celebrities out in our culture, it's a great time to explore how an outsider would look at modern America with, you know, with all the resources to see the best of it. You know, like, they're being treated as celebrities, so they are being. They're staying at luxury hotels and, like, being taken to shop at these things and clearly have a pretty big budget, like, there. No one ever gives a number, but it seems that they're like, they could just pick up suits and it's fine.

29:19
Case Aiken
They could pick up these outfits that like, goddamn, it looked like pictures of my grandmother from that era. Like, I think that's also a thing when I'm looking at this movie where it's like, yeah, this is like, it's set in 1973. It's from 1970. The outfits and whatnot. Or 71, pardon me. The outfits just are such of that era and I love it.

29:41
Maynard
Speaking of the friend of Doctor Milo, is this a point where I can talk about things that I would change if I could?

29:46
Case Aiken
Yeah, we're convetching at this point and we'll take a break in a second and actually talk about what we would do.

29:51
Maynard
Okay, sure, I'm gonna sit on that. But, but yeah, Doctor Milo, I mean, just to discuss him. I mean, he's the one that gets there and. Yeah, he gets strangled by a gorilla. And I guess that's the point of establishing. I mean, we already know, but I guess it's to establish to the apes that apes in that time are still savage, you know, because otherwise they would not have seen them. They maybe they wouldn't have known. That's the only reason I can really think of having. For having a gorilla strangle him to death.

30:17
Case Aiken
Yeah, this movie carries over the racism that the first movie has of the different ape groups disliking each other immediately. They're like, oh, they'll have a friend, there's a gorilla. And they all get mad initially. And every time they bring up gorillas, they're always really mad. Which is, yeah, don't call them a monkey either.

30:37
Maynard
Yeah, that's definitely the racial parallel right there.

30:41
Case Aiken
Yeah. Which is impossible to divorce from the planet of the Apes. Movies are trying to have commentaries about it all.

30:48
Maynard
What's the point? Without the commentary, they're certainly not as good.

30:51
Case Aiken
So the actor who was playing Doctor Milo apparently was having panic attacks when. While wearing the makeup, and so they had to move his death scene earlier. So I wonder if that's why it's a gorilla as opposed to something else, because, like, it's so fucking fast. Like, he. They get there. We got, like, r1 scene with him, and he's the only one who can provide exposition that is outside of the realm of what we would expect Cornelius and zero to know because we've been with him a fair amount at this point. So he's the only one who could be like, let me explain how we got off the planet because there's no way Cornelius and Zero would have been able to do it by themselves.

31:27
Maynard
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's still no way doctor Milo could.

31:31
Case Aiken
It's great.

31:32
Maynard
Yeah. It's as if. Could we drop a spaceship in the middle of Rome and their top scientists could reverse engineer it, get it flying. No, no. They don't know anything about current. You know, they don't know anything about flight and aerodynamics. They got 0% chance of ever getting this thing off of the ground without at least thousands of years of research. You know, at least they have something they can kind of copy to learn from. They'll get a head start, but he's not going to figure that out in a little bit of time.

32:04
Case Aiken
Right. But, I mean, at least he's a different person than the ones that we had just seen in the previous movie, which is set only, like, days before they arrive on Earth. So it's, you know, in terms of the timeline, it's like, all right, at least there's this other exposition box right here. But then they kill him really early. So that's it. He's not much of a character. He doesn't get his name in the opening. Like, when it's like, going from ape to ape showing, they're like, the actor who's playing them. Like, they just, like, skip him completely.

32:37
Maynard
Well, yeah, it was having panic attacks. I mean, yeah, I surprised they didn't recast it.

32:42
Case Aiken
That's. That's actually a big thing that I'm wondering about. And it's probably because they had shot some of it and, like, there's only so much time and the makeup is difficult to make in the first place because you have to get the mold of their face.

32:54
Maynard
Who's under the makeup is the point. If you use him for the first couple of scenes, he can't finish the rest. You recast him. You can't tell under that makeup.

33:02
Case Aiken
There's barely any scenes with him. So it's not like there's that much that they would have.

33:05
Maynard
It's him taking off the helmet, maybe in the ocean. And then you've got the scene where he's in the zoo getting strangled, pretty much. So you know, you've got to still credit him in the credits. You know, he's Doctor Milo in the beginning, panicking Doctor Milo. But, yeah, I said, yeah, definitely could recast him. But, yeah, it's. I, you know, we can get into it more, but I think there are other ways to get them to the past than trying to get an ape to fix up the ship.

33:34
Case Aiken
Yeah. Especially a ship that we saw get submerged in water. And, like, it was just like, one of those, like, details. Like, once we pointed out, well, is it.

33:40
Maynard
Is it Taylor's ship or is it Brent's ship?

33:42
Case Aiken
It's supposed to be Taylor's ship because I think Brent's ship is, like, totally destroyed. But either way, the thing that we see them pull out of the ocean at the start of this movie is just, like, the nose cone, which was, like, the only thing they actually had a set for because the rest was supposed to be submerged in water when in the first movie. So it's just funny of the reuse of this set piece there. What do you all think of the actual opening? Because the original script called for them to actually be shown leaving the planet and see the time travel stuff and then arrive. And instead they decided to open the movie with it in the water and humanity pulling them out. And we get that big reveal of, oh, they're actually apes under those helmets.

34:20
Maynard
I really like the beginning of this because you've got the rocky shore. You know, you're going to planet the apes. You see the ocean. So your brain immediately is that you're on the planet of the apes in that time. And then you hear the drone of the helicopter, and it immediately orients you and places you in time, and you realize where you are. You're in the modern time.

34:39
Sam
Yeah. And I really like the fact that they're met at the shorts. Like, gentlemen, welcome to the US. And then they pull off their helmets and everyone's like, what? Why? Why are there. Why are there chimps inside of those astronaut suits? Like, it's great. And the face on all of the soldiers that are staring at them is perfect. And I even think, because the first half of this movie is comedy, it plays so well into the following scenes, which is just all of these, like, these three military guys staring through cages, you know, through bars, at these three chimpanzees who are now putting on clothing that they brought in a suitcase. And it's hilarious. So it leads to, like, this really hilarious kind of, and setting the tone of, like, what at least the first half of this film is going to be.

35:31
Sam
So I really like the beginning, and I think I do like it better than the idea of them kind of showing the planet or even the journey or even any of the things that Zira described. I think it's better. And I think also, like, I don't think they might have had the budget to show us what really happened. So I think it's actually more clever to do it this way and kind of like, oh. Oh, shoot. That's where we're going with this film. And so then that sets the, you know, the mode for you because you're like, okay, what's gonna happen now? And then it's comedy for a long time. It's amazing.

36:04
Maynard
If you were gonna do it, you'd have to do it in a flashback because you don't wanna take away the reveal of taking the helmets off. You don't wanna take away what they do in the beginning. So if you. If you want to go back and later do a flashback of it, you could probably do that. But at that point, your only purpose of that is showing off your special effects. If you don't have the budget to do it, there's no reason to do it.

36:25
Case Aiken
I agree. I think it's a really effective start there. And then we get the Jerry Goldsmith score, which is way lighter and bouncier than any of the other scores in the franchise. It's got this California surfer vibe to parts of it, and it's selling that this movie is going to be more lighthearted. It's a softer touch kind of movie. It is not as brutal as the successor, and it is not the first two movies. It's so different in that regard. Even if the story structure is the same, just the circumstances flipped, it's still just very different from the aesthetic of the first two. Planet of the AIDS movies.

37:00
Maynard
Well, it becomes a comedy because it's sort of mirroring the first one. It's almost a parody. It's bordering on that parodies tend to be comedies. So it definitely works. It's like if they treated Taylor awful and locked him off a cage, what's the nicest they can treat the apes if they're here?

37:19
Case Aiken
Yeah. And there is a conversation about how this reflects the original novel better than the first movie, because in the original novel, the apes have an industrialized society, so they are more accepting of the Taylor character in the book. He's able to communicate with them, and they're able to have conversations about how apes society works and how it's different from his world, quote, unquote, because, you know, x, y, and z reasons. But there is still that kind of pressure that is put on him. And this movie is. Is showing that, like, even this, a more enlightened quote unquote, society will still behave in this, like, you know, primitive way, this territorial, primal way when they're threatened. And I think that's a good vibe. Like, it makes so much sense. They did not have a lot of money.

38:05
Case Aiken
Set the movie in modern day and have it know. Have, you know, only two actors wearing eight makeup throughout the whole thing.

38:10
Maynard
Yeah, exactly.

38:12
Case Aiken
I do want to call attention to Natalie Trundi in this movie. She doesn't have a huge part. She's a.

38:18
Maynard
She knocks it out of the park.

38:19
Case Aiken
She's Stephanie Branton, or, like, Doctor Stephanie Branton, the female scientist in this. The zero equivalent for it all. So this is actually, at this point, it is her second movie in the franchise. She would go on to be tied for the most number of appearances in a Planet of the Apes movie, and that's because she was married to the producer. But in the next two movies, she would play Lisa, the wife of Caesar, and she's in beneath as one of the mutants. So by the end of Battle for the Planet of the Apes, she is tied with Roddy McDowell as the most number of appearances in a Planet of the Apes movie, though at this point, Kim Hunter, having been in the first two and thus three movies, has the most at this point because Rodney McDowell was not in beneath.

39:05
Case Aiken
He was recast because he was not available for their filming dates. So this is actually only his second time in a Planet movie or Planet of the Ace movie. And obviously, Charlton Heston did not want to come back for this franchise and was like, fucking kill me. Blow up the planet. So all the things from the first movie could only go so far into the second.

39:27
Maynard
Does Cornelius play a serious role in beneath?

39:30
Sam
He.

39:30
Case Aiken
He's in it. He's recast. He's. He is smaller. But they. They show up again, like. But both Cornelius and Zira have smaller roles in beneath, where when Brent comes and finds the community, they take him in and sort of, like, set him up on, like, and explain how they should do stuff. And then he goes off and confronts the mutants and the movies.

39:52
Maynard
You look just like someone we know. You look just like Taylor. Like, if he came from wish.com comma, that would be you. Yes.

40:00
Case Aiken
So last thing I want to talk about before we take a break is that the third act is dark as fuck. Thematically, obviously, it's very well lit, but it's not super exciting because it's, like, a low budget kind of thing. And I think that for people who are looking at this movie and wanted to have, this is the first movie where the apes are the protagonist. I think that if you are going to get the younger audiences really into it, that it kind of needed to be a little bit more action packed at the end, because the first half is this, like, much more adult, kind of, like, you know, dramedy.

40:37
Sam
Yeah.

40:38
Case Aiken
And then, like, it's still a serious sequence at the end, but it's not anything that's, like, really, like, pulse, you know? Like, every time I rewatch it, I'm surprised that, like, really, they're not on the run, per se, from the police. Like, the police are, like, after them and, like, the military's after them, but there's no, like, real confrontation. It's just doctor Hossline who, like, confronts them and shoots them like everyone else is, like, staged off.

41:02
Maynard
It doesn't have action, but it has tension.

41:05
Case Aiken
Yeah, it is tension.

41:06
Maynard
If you care about Cornelia, you should care about zero, so you want to see them be fine. So you are really invested in them getting away, and so every time they're close to getting caught or confronted, it affects you.

41:20
Sam
I think there's also the added tension of the fact that, you know, that there have been direct orders to the doctor to take the apes back alive. And he is so really obsessed with the fear of what is coming, whether it is right or wrong, because, honestly, you possibly could have righted it if you had just been nice to them, but right or wrong. And so there's this fear that he will do exactly what he did and basically go rogue. And so he is the reason why, like, Cornelius and Zera do not make it out of this situation, because he has direct orders. He's told to take them in calmly, and he still goes in alone, and he goes in specifically to make sure that the baby ape is taken. But I think that there's something more malicious behind that.

42:18
Sam
And I'm glad he died. Spoiler alert.

42:21
Maynard
I mean, but he's still not. If his goal is to avoid this future, I mean, how are you gonna take these apes alive? One half heartedly smacked a guard and crushed his skull. Well, I think he wasn't even trying. He wasn't even mad.

42:36
Sam
But I feel like when you. I think that in trying to avoid this future, he created a self create. You know, he actually created what the future is going to be. Right. Because if you react to it in fear, sometimes what it does is actually pushes people to be exactly what you thought they would be. And so pushing Cornelius and Zira to kind of give up their. To kill their baby and actually to be sterilized and give up their ability to have children, that pushes them on the run, that pushes you into the future. If they had been able to look at it and come to some sort of a higher ground thought and love, maybe you can change this future. I know that the creators have a very nihilistic cycle going here of destruction, whether it's human destruction or ape destruction.

43:34
Sam
However, I think no matter what, the point is that every time, and this is, like, the interesting thing about this series, every time someone gets close to, like, reaching a level where people can be cool and be friends and apes can be cool and people can be cool, someone messes it up, and it's usually because of fear. Fear motivates it. So this doctor pushing and pushing for, we've got to stop this future. We've got to stop this future. He caused this future. He caused baby Milo to be an orphan. He caused him to rise as Caesar. He caused the apes to take over faster than they would have if they had taken over the way that the timeline originally made. The doctor is fully the villain because his pushing for fear pushed the apes to a space where they had no escape.

44:29
Sam
And this is like merit in humankind. When we treat people with fear, hatred, brutality, people end up becoming the worst of themselves. When you treat people with respect, love, and kindness, people are better. And the same thing would have happened. And if. If they had just been allowed to live, like, in a hotel for the rest of their lives, gotten jobs, integrated into society, there is no other ape yet that can speak the way that Caesar speaks. There is no other thing. And despite the headcanon, that case has about a virus and all of that, causing things to go faster for the next movie, which is so much fun. I totally agree. I just feel like these movies constantly show you that the destructive pattern is on us.

45:21
Sam
And if we continue to embrace fear and continue to embrace hate and all of those things, then we will never get out of our destructive patterns. The doctor causes it. He is the reason for the planet of the apes in the 1990s.

45:35
Maynard
I say, really? It's his superiors that cause it. Because they shouldn't have sent him in anyway. They should have said, no, you're too personally attached to this. You're staying home. Like, you can't go. Everyone keep this guy away. So once again, bureaucracy has failed. The doctor's just doing his job.

45:53
Sam
Well, I don't know that he would have not gone, though, because I think at this point, sure, but then you arrest him.

45:59
Maynard
But then you arrest him, right? Like, this guy's not allowed near this prison. Like, you see him arrest him.

46:04
Sam
Well, but I think.

46:05
Maynard
And take him back.

46:06
Sam
I think that he makes a good enough point, though. I think that, like, he's persuasive enough, and I think we see this a lot, you know, just merit in humankind. I think that, like, a lot of fascists have this kind of ability to kind of talk to people. And the whole, throughout the whole movie, he's very good at just sneaking in the things that, like, would, like, make someone afraid, you know? And so, like, yes, he wants the eradication of both the apes. Right? That's what he wants. But ultimately, he'll take the little crumb of victory that is getting rid of the child and sterilizing the apes, which is, which we would never. What we have. Oh, my gosh. Yes, we have.

46:51
Sam
It is a demoralizing thing to do to humans, and it's a demoralizing to do to these creatures, these apes that are very much like humans, these chimps. Right? Like, sterilization is a tool that many governments, fascists and otherwise, have used to hurt people, hurt entire groups, indigenous groups all over this planet. This is like a horrible, horrid thing that this doctor is okay with and that the government is like, yeah, okay, we're gonna be lenient. We're gonna, we're gonna say they can live, but they can never procreate. And that's on us. We're gonna take away their ability to do that, and we're going to kill the only child they were ever gonna have. That is cruelty. And that's on the doctor and the government. Yes, and the.

47:41
Case Aiken
Yeah, but he's pushing that.

47:42
Sam
And he's pushing it because he.

47:46
Maynard
Governments don't necessarily listen to doctors when they suggest things. We all know that's true.

47:50
Sam
But he's very persuasive. Right.

47:52
Maynard
What he should be pushing for is finding out the cause of the upcoming plague that wipes out cats and dogs and trying to prevent that. Pushing for an agenda that people should get goldfish as pets and birds. Other things that won't rise up and then pass a law where it's illegal to get pet apes.

48:10
Sam
Yeah, I was actually thinking that it was just really funny that they brought this up in this. And so he was so gung ho on killing them. And then by the very next movie they have pet apes. And I was like. And they've sped it up almost. Like, wouldn't have someone written it down or announced it or something. So, yeah, they have the tape recording.

48:31
Maynard
Of her saying it.

48:32
Case Aiken
Yeah. It's almost like a fear response where it's just like, well, if we apparently, if we enslave them, they'll rise up. So we have to enslave them even sooner.

48:39
Sam
Yeah. Everyone makes the wrong choice.

48:42
Case Aiken
Yeah. Including the marketing department for this, because. Did you all watch the trailer for this movie before this recording? So the trailer is like one of the most frustrating trailers I have ever seen. Because the last shot of the trailer is zero. Getting shot. Like, there's no mystery at all in it. Like the whole. The entire story is spelled out from them arriving, Milo being killed. Like, the scene of them in front of the congressional boards. Like, can he speak too? Only when she lets me. That whole thing, them being celebrities, them, like, him killing the orderly and then going on the run and then killing Zira at the very end. It's the entire fucking story. So, like, if you've saw the trailer, you don't need to see this movie unless you just really want to see this movie. It. I have never. What?

49:30
Case Aiken
I shouldn't say never because also the trailer for Conquest then has the ends on. On Caesar in front of the fires, like, shouting about the Planet of the Apes. So, like, I don't know what's up with the planet the Apes trailers, but they just want to tell you everything before you even get there.

49:44
Sam
During this era of movies, though, like, so much. Like, it's ridiculous. They would tell the whole movie for some reason. And lately I feel like we've been going back to that. When I go to see a trailer.

49:56
Maynard
I don't know not to see the movie unless they knew the ending would be satisfactory. So many. There's so many movies with bad endings. I want to go in knowing it's going to be a bad ending. Just tell me the ending if it's good. I'll still see it.

50:09
Case Aiken
It's just mind blowing to me that they would make this movie and have all of that, like, have everything out there.

50:15
Maynard
Seventies was a simpler time.

50:16
Case Aiken
Yeah. I mean, there's a full on narrator being like, and now they're on the run, unless they must escape from the planet of the eight.

50:24
Maynard
Yeah, subtlety wasn't a thing in the seventies either.

50:26
Case Aiken
Now.

50:26
Sam
Yeah, you got to know what's the in between. That's why you go, the details. You didn't have the details.

50:32
Maynard
Education levels were just lower. Literature, literary left. Literacy levels were much lower.

50:38
Case Aiken
God. And Cornelius could have fixed that. If he had become just. If he had just been allowed to stay and become a celebrity, he could have. He could have become a tv doctor talking about, like, education and literacy.

50:47
Maynard
Like, he probably would have run. He would have run for governor or something.

50:51
Case Aiken
Yeah. One of the things I thought was actually a really cool scene was when they go to the museum and they're, like, actually, like, walking around, like, all the fossils and so forth, because, like, oh, this is their history, too, but they've actually always been denied the ability to research, like, further back into the timeline. So, like, that has to be really interesting for them where it's just like, oh, I've traveled to the past, now I can learn more about my actual past. Like, I think that would all be very cool.

51:17
Maynard
Yes. You would think she would attend, like, more history classes or, like, enroll at a college, take some history courses.

51:25
Case Aiken
Yeah. Instead, this movie just kind of wants to be like, look how weird celebrity culture is.

51:29
Maynard
Like, or she attends the feminist meeting and it's like, yeah, but Cornelius is, like, treats you very well, so it's like, this is not really something you're familiar with.

51:41
Case Aiken
Yeah, I think she could have chimed in being like, in my time, the most apes are, like, this kind of thing would have been a good way to do it. Or in my time, we are all egalitarian in that regard. And, like, it's kind of. Kind of crazy that you all aren't.

51:54
Maynard
Well, in my time, in the future and the planet we've evolved making our bed, it's very useless. Don't make your bed. Don't make your bed a waste of time. You're just going to sleep in it again later.

52:05
Case Aiken
Just. Just have a nest of, you just have all your blankets and whatnot in, like, a little spiral, and then it's just like the nest that the apes make in the. In the jungles, but now with sheets.

52:14
Maynard
So you're really getting back to nature in a beautiful way, going back to basics.

52:21
Case Aiken
Yeah. I I do like that scene, though, with. With Zira. Like, pretending to be. Not pretending to be a feminist, but, you know, like, echoing what everyone is telling her, because that actually does become kind. Become kind of a character trait for her where she's socially uncomfortable in so many scenes that she either plays along or, like, pretends to agree to things or sometimes reveals stuff because she's just uncomfortable. And, like, it's nice to sort of set up that, like, Cornelius fits in really well at this time, and Zira doesn't quite. Like, she's still cool and she's still doing her best, but it's not as natural for her, whereas, like, Cornelius just seems to, like, it fits like a glove when he's here.

52:58
Maynard
Well, he's got one great shocking moment that they kind of didn't go into enough when he's at the prize fight.

53:04
Case Aiken
Oh, yeah.

53:06
Maynard
Everyone's screaming violently, and he's just shocked, and it's like, yeah, this should be sinking into you. You're in a society that is way more guerrilla than chimpanzee, dude. Like, like, humans are not very smart, but we are very violent, and I think. And. And they never really. They don't do anything with it. Just gonna leave it.

53:25
Sam
Yeah, well, they use it. They use it as a moment for, like, a one liner note, like, for one of his one liners, which everyone laughs at.

53:32
Maynard
Everyone laughs at it. Like it's a one liner, but it's not a one liner. Like, he says. He just says brutes and, like, it's not funny and he's completely serious about it, and everyone laughs, but it's like, no, he's dead serious. You are brutes.

53:46
Sam
Yeah.

53:47
Case Aiken
Yeah. That kind of should have been, like, the point where he's starting to see the society kind of crack in front of him.

53:53
Maynard
Like, start seeing the parallels to what he escaped from.

53:56
Case Aiken
Yeah. On that note, I feel like we're kind of, like, just circling, talking about things that we kind of liked about this movie. Why don't we take a break, and when we come back, we can talk about the things that we would have changed.

54:10
Maynard
Hey.

54:10
Case Aiken
Oh, hey, Jeff.

54:11
Maynard
What's going on, guys?

54:12
Case Aiken
Oh, you know, talking about Superman.

54:14
Maynard
Oh, cool. I could talk about Superman.

54:17
Case Aiken
I could talk some more about Superman. We know. I'll bet a few people would want to get in on this. I'm down. You know it. That sounds like fun.

54:25
Maynard
I'll do it.

54:25
Case Aiken
Cool.

54:26
Maynard
Let's do it.

54:26
Case Aiken
We can call the show men of steel and you can find it@certainpov.com.

54:31
Maynard
Or wherever you get your podcasts.

54:34
Case Aiken
Yay. And we're back. All right, so, Maynard, we've got one rule for the back half here, which is that I am not allowed to go before Sam. So you're our guest. In terms of throwing out pitches of how things could have been fixed or just whatnot, you can either go first or you can elect Sam to go first.

54:56
Maynard
I'll go first. So one of the big things that bugged me is Doctor Milo. We kind of got into it earlier. I don't buy that he could fix up a ship and actually get it to fly or even, let's say it didn't even, like they do say they fly away from the planet before it explodes, though. So, I mean, they clearly, he clearly gets it airborne. I think there's got to be another Sci-Fi way of getting them to the past, even using a nuclear blast, if that could somehow jostle them into the past in some way that's not any more really explainable. It's very science fictiony. But they've established that society is so primitive, there's just no way he's fixing up that ship to be operational.

55:42
Maynard
And I would, since you brought up the makeup, I would recast that actor knowing that he was having trouble in the makeup, like, sorry, but we're not changing the story for you. And because I think Doctor Milo, he died so abruptly that he could fulfill a role as the science, the true scientist member of the group. And his death later, instead of being at the hands of a girl, it could be at the hands of a human, you know, who actually kills him. You know, they accused the humans of killing Doctor Milo, and then they're like, oh, no, it was one of your own kind. But, you know, if that was, like, Hasslan's first step into violent madness was to kill Doctor Milo at some point, you know, that would be, like, a greater progression.

56:27
Maynard
It just feels like his death is really wasted so much that he's basically a deuce ex machina device at the beginning, right? It was like, how'd they get here? Oh, this ape who fixed the plane, and, well, he's dead now, so don't worry. And only Cornelius and zero are here now, so definitely Doctor Milo would be one that I would fix up. I know it's also micro budget, but I would probably have put more budget into the masks. I know that the masks look better in the first movie than they do here, and there's only two of them. So for them to look kind of as halloweeny masky as they do, I think just putting a little bit more money towards getting that to be clean would probably better.

57:12
Maynard
I know that Rodney McDowell and Kim Hunter were very unhappy in the masks for this film, especially because they were the only ones who had to suffer through it. So I don't know if they put less makeup on to make them more comfortable or something, but I would not. I would not have gone ahead and done that. I also would have tried to cover up Ricardo Montauban's Switcheroo a little bit more subtly. Basically, once the cops are walking out, he's, like, laughing and chuckling, and I think that basically spells it out for anyone who's paying attention that he got away with the switcheroo. Because we see the ape, then we know everything, and it seems pretty obvious there. So I think the.

57:51
Maynard
The switcher is already a good twist, but the twist would be, I think, even more effective without listening to him laugh and chuckle that entire time.

58:00
Case Aiken
Yeah, I mean, that it's funny you mentioned that one because I wasn't even thinking about it because for me, it's just like, oh, yeah. Well, the twist is that Milo is actually with the chimpanzee there. So it's interesting that jumped out at you, because for me, it's just like, oh, yeah, that's the next story beat.

58:15
Maynard
Yeah, yeah. He was laying it on a little bit thick, I think.

58:19
Case Aiken
I mean, it is Ricardo Malta.

58:20
Maynard
That is true.

58:21
Sam
Yeah.

58:23
Maynard
Yeah. I brought up a lot of the other ones kind of previously, but they're really not problems to fix. It's like, ape shouldn't. Probably shouldn't be drinking wine. It might have been nice to see the wine broaden to more like, what the effects of the drinking really are on two creatures that have never done it before. It just sort of makes her candidly honest, but, like, it could actually make you, like, savagely violent, and. And if you wanted to explore that more, that would be one direction you could take with it, or the further directions of Cornelius in the boxing match, you know, exploring more of the. The violent side of man. And I think that kind of comes down to you. You know, what we talked about, this is a comedy. They're keeping it very light.

59:11
Maynard
They're keeping it whimsical for a lot of it because otherwise, all the other stories are about them, like, just dissecting them and locking them up and persecuting them, which I think is more realistic about what would happen, but, yeah, I mean, throw it to salmon and I might think of some more.

59:30
Sam
Yeah, I like where you're going that I actually also agreed that I felt like Doctor Milo. Like, it was just so sudden. I was like, what? Okay, I guess he's gone now. And I agree with you. I don't think that it needs to be the gorilla that does it. And in fact, I'm going to piggyback on your ride. I'm going to say he lives, and I'm going to say that he's the one who has an issue with drink. Maybe some people get a little, like, you know, giving him more and different kinds of alcohol and he kind of, like, breaks something and there's a bar fight and he hurts someone and the government puts him down. And I think, like, that would be kind of interesting because now you've got these two other apes.

01:00:06
Sam
They're like, no, but it was like, you know, not his fault. Chimps. Sorry. And I'm just like, they're insulted by me. And, like, just kind of have them, you know, have that kind of be the catalyst for when things kind of flip the switch. Switch. Flip this. The script. Sorry. I was like, switch. No script. Flip the script. So that's when the darkness starts coming in because it's like, you know, or you maybe don't put him down right away. Have him, like, on trial, that kind of thing. We actually have a pretty short run time, so we could add a couple, you know, scenes to this movie. Wouldn't be a problem. But. But I wouldn't add too much. Like, I'm not, like, I'm not looking for, like, a kit to kill the mockingbird.

01:00:51
Maynard
Let's keep our movies around 90 minutes. All movies can learn from that lesson. No, nobody's got all day to watch a movie. Let's keep it 90 minutes. That's. That's a strength of this movie, is keeping it 90. They keep it tight.

01:01:02
Sam
Oh, yeah. It's beautiful. It moves really quick. Other than that, I'm actually really fine with this movie. I like, that's honestly the only thing that I would kind of change is keeping Doctor Milo around a little bit longer just because that death seems so unnecessarily short. I mean, would I love to see more armando? Yes. Would I love more of his amazing, very kind, all freaks welcome animals. Totally loved circus. Absolutely. Because that is a fairy tale that I love. So totally down for that. Totally down to see more of that. But it's not necessary. You know, it's not, I think.

01:01:41
Maynard
Extending Doctor Milo like you said, letting him maybe have the one that trouble with the drink. Having that extra ape allows you to show one of the apes that doesn't fit in because I mean, Kim's a little uncomfortable, zero is a little uncomfortable. But like otherwise both the apes blend into human society pretty smooth without much of a hiccup.

01:02:04
Sam
And I. Yeah, and there are totally.

01:02:06
Maynard
That I would buy that happening. So if there was one ape who did have trouble adjusting, who's just. The technology blew his mind and he just, he couldn't handle it and he was like, you know, you guys can talk like a telephone would blow his mind, right? Even though apparently he can fix a spaceship.

01:02:24
Case Aiken
But, but just like a character who's so like. Cause he's like sold as like this genius. Like they say that he's like once in a generation, like intellect amongst their people. Like if he saw this like this world with all these like wonderful technologies and then also humanity is also just shit. I, that could really break him. And I like, because I have the same note which is that like Milo's death in the first act is way too soon. Especially if the second act is going to spending, are going to be spending it as a comedy. It's going to be light hearted and you know, charming and so forth.

01:02:57
Case Aiken
And like they just had a third of their race die, you know, like it's a messed up situation and like sure they could bounce back from it, but they seem to be like pretty okay, like he just died and, but we're back to being okay pretty fast.

01:03:10
Maynard
You know what, they never crusade against and Doctor Milo could be a part of it, but they never stand up to nuclear proliferation, which they know the effect it's going to have on the planet. Not only in the first stage, but in the second one too. The ultimate complete destruction of the planet. It, besides infighting, it's also nuclear weapons and it's never brought up or dealt with. Doctor Milo could easily play a role in that where he's like, no, listen to me, these things are dangerous and yeah.

01:03:42
Case Aiken
Yeah, yeah, like he could be out of protest and like a cop could like bust his head in or something. Yeah, because I do think it should be humand it can be an accident or it could be him being in the wrong place or he's put down because he's still technically animal, have that element going there too. I think Milo would have afforded them more opportunity to have this exploration of how human society reacts to them than just the two. I think we're all on the same page. His death too soon is a rough spot in terms of, like, the tone of this movie because, like, then you then jump into the light hearted stuff after that, and it's. Instead of the turning point into things getting.

01:04:21
Maynard
Yeah, they're not particularly distraught for all that long.

01:04:24
Case Aiken
Right. It's so weird that part's just strange. And, like, I get it. He was having problems, but you could have either recast or you should have screened the person for it. Like, when you're trying to, like, bring in the third person to be your ape in this movie, like, why didn't they do makeup tests? You know, don't go. You know, I realize that some of it's expensive, like. But, like, check and see that they can function for, like, a day or two with, like, some kind of prosthetic on their face. Like, maybe not with. Not as fully made up, but, like, you know, the prototype what or whatever that they were working on. Like, make sure that he's going to be okay filming all these scenes because he's a new cast. It's not like a new.

01:04:59
Case Aiken
It's not like an established person that we have to, like, bring back and, like, deal with. Like, they could have had literally anyone and they definitely had actors that knew how to wear the makeup because they just did two of these. Yeah.

01:05:08
Maynard
And again, they're under makeup. So it's the easiest recast in the world. You know, Ed Wood would die for such an opportunity as this.

01:05:14
Case Aiken
Yeah, bring back the actor from beneath who played Cornelius. And then it could just be really weird. It could be like, oh, well, we're actually a polycule. And, like, yeah, cool, whatever. That's like, chimps have big sex parties. That's fine. Like, really? Bonobos do more. But you know a lot about this.

01:05:31
Maynard
For supposedly innocent man.

01:05:35
Case Aiken
No, but bonobos famously, like, have orgies for basically anything. Like, find new food orgy, got away from predator orgy. Like, it's a matriarchal society where the. The women keep the aggression down by just, like, having sex all the time. Yeah, bonobos. Great, great stuff. So that. So I share that big note. The other things I have some nitpicks, like the fact that Cornelius outlines, you know, in very authoritative detail. The history of the planet of the Apes is often seen as a continuity snarl in this movie. For one thing, it is then different in the next movie. Like, they call back to it, but it's, like, sped up. But it also doesn't match how in the first movie it seemed that they didn't know shit about their history and that Doctor Zaeus had really suppressed it.

01:06:22
Case Aiken
So either Milo could help sort of establish, like, why they have more of an authoritative stance on it all or Cornelius could sell it as being like, all right, well, since the Taylor incident, we have been able to put more information together. I've had access to additional files that had been, like, you know, kept under wraps by the orangutans. Side note, Milo could be an orangutan and that might have been kind of interesting also in there. But even regardless, like, have. If it's. If it's Cornelius doing the selling point, he needs to be saying it. Like, I have inferred now that. Now that I know this thing, it. It means that this holiday is probably a celebration of x instead of, you know, saying, like, and every year we celebrate the day.

01:07:00
Case Aiken
He said, no, like, it's a good delivery there, but it doesn't actually make sense for what we know of the character at that point. And I get that in 1971, sequels generally were like, you only kind of need to remember the previous movie. We'll refresh your memory on the stuff you need to know kind of stuff. They're not expecting people to have, like, the fine tooth comb of continuity that we are seeing with, like, the MCU or something. But it still is a weird part where he's just, like, knows that, okay, 300 years from now, start having apes as pets. 200 years after that, the first ape says, no, like, you know, and going.

01:07:34
Maynard
To the timeline is weird. I think him knowing that they say, no, that could have been a religious, you know, fable. I don't know how much detail. I can't remember us getting that much detail from the religion. But certainly there is a depth of information within the religion.

01:07:50
Case Aiken
I mean, it could have been like, tormentor demons. And then we realized, like, oh, they are actually humans. Like, we put the pieces. Now that we know that our history, like, your history is our history, we have put these pieces together. And so we had this fable, and now we understand that if you decode it and you pull it away from the mythology, it fits like x, Y and Z. I just wish it was a little less, like, rock solid in terms of how he presents it so that there was wiggle room in it. It also gives wiggle room for the sequel because then him presenting like, oh, it must have taken hundreds of years, but eventually they were your slaves then it gives them the wiggle room for the next movie to be, like, I was really more like 17 years.

01:08:28
Case Aiken
It would just protect them a little bit, especially because they knew they were planning to do a sequel. Even if this could have been the last movie, the goal was to do a sequel after this one, because somehow, even beneath, maybe.

01:08:39
Maynard
Yeah, I think you can probably. If you know the gestation period of a. I guess we don't really know the gestation period of a chimpanzee human sort of evolved form, but even at that, like, what's the exponential growth? Like, how many can they possibly make in 17 years?

01:08:57
Case Aiken
Oh, it doesn't work at all. Yeah, yeah, no, we talked about this on the last episode because it was just like, oh, it's not even, like, enough time. Like, they haven't even been, like, slaves that long. Obviously, any length of it is bad, but it was just like, oh, that's. That's a lot of. A lot of growth on that one. And it only works if Caesar is the carrier of a virus that causes apes to get smarter around him by way of being from a future timeline, where in a different timeline, a Caesar had a virus and then caused the planet of the apes to rise up, and then bringing it back in time caused an accelerated rate of that progression, which. I'm totally cool with that.

01:09:30
Case Aiken
That circle of all the planet of these movies, especially because Ryze does such a good job of living out the story that is told in this movie. Like, you know, ignore the whole dogs and cats all dead part of it. Like, ignore the. Like, ignore. It's like, okay, we. They were brought into your. Your household, and then eventually they became slaves. Like, they are slaves in our current society. Like, that's the point of the new movies where, like, apes don't matter. We're testing them just like, what were saying. Like, we're putting them in rockets that are too dangerous. We're dissecting them, we're putting drugs in their systems, you know, and then if they're not helpful to us, if they're.

01:10:04
Case Aiken
If they're no longer a good circus performer, we put them in a cage somewhere, and then they're just sad, and they're being tortured just for. By cruel people, and we treat it like it's our mercy upon them. These movies are not trying to have big, like, animal rights conversations, but, like, it is interesting that you can incorporate that theme and have it actually, like, fit really well. Like. Like, it's one of the testaments of the strength of the more modern trilogy.

01:10:28
Maynard
I think this movie definitely touches on the animal rights, though. You know, when they say, you know, dissecting humans, it's no worse than we do to animals now, which again, I just don't think any elected official would say that publicly or even privately, because again, I think that's not the way they take humans. But I think this one definitely does have the testing. And again, there's something else doctor Milo could do. He could witness some of that testing on animals and create parallels to it.

01:10:52
Case Aiken
Yeah, so I agree. I think Milo needs to be a more outspoken character. I think that the timeline that they present, while great that they do, needs to be a little less set in stone. And then apparently they got footage of them fleeing the planet. But it's not just that it was in the script. They actually had footage of the. Of the rocket ship leaving. It was never finished. It doesn't have any of the special effects. It surprises me that we don't get any kind of flashback when they're like later talking to them like on the ship or anything like that. And it's also surprising that we don't use footage from the previous two movies at any point. Like this franchise loves to do diegetic inclusions of scenes from previous movies.

01:11:28
Case Aiken
They love to be like, let's turn on the screen and see the footage of Caesar talking or Cornelius talking or whatever scene that you want to talk about. And it's surprising that they didn't try to incorporate any of that in them lying, but also maybe do some shots of the stuff in beneath or of the first movie.

01:11:46
Maynard
I know they at least show a shot of Taylor kissing zero.

01:11:50
Case Aiken
Yeah. Yeah. So there's some. I guess what I'm saying is, like, it'd be interesting to set up the fact that they're lying and remind the audience that. That there are points where they are lying about their knowledge of the future, like, or at least withholding information and use footage of that. And I think that could also be used then to get some of that footage of them fleeing the planet as well in there. And it would be quick, so you wouldn't have to have, like, the full special effect on it. But it, like, even a shot of them just like in the castle, like looking up, like through a portion, like you don't even see the outside would have been interesting to show. And I get budgets.

01:12:25
Case Aiken
I fully understand that might not have been in the cards, but knowing that there was some of it shot, I'm just curious, could it have been worked in without messing up the really awesome opening where they pull their helmets off and it's like, oh, you thought you were in for one movie. It's a totally different movie.

01:12:41
Sam
Yeah.

01:12:42
Maynard
And in the flashback, Lucius is running up because he's late because he slept in, and he tries to grab onto the rim and Doctor Milo steps on his hand and kicks him off.

01:12:55
Case Aiken
My last note is that, and I was saying this before, I think the third act, while I like it, I don't think it was going to win bigger audiences. I think this movie is just good. So the conversation is, how could this movie have been more successful? And it was 2 million and it made twelve. So, like, we're talking about still a successful movie in most scenes, but I think that it's cool that we're finally following the apes as the protagonist. I think that a lot of younger people are going to come and check it out because, like, look, it's apes and apes are cool. But then a good chunk of that movie is like, them living as, like, again, like kind of this more mature, dramedy kind of component. Like, it's really funny stuff, but it's like that.

01:13:38
Case Aiken
Or it's light hearted, but it's like an adult world. Like that they're in, they're like, you know, they're going shopping. They're being like, going to weird ass parties where people are on exercise bikes for some reason. There, you know, there's political conversations. You know, there it is not the gripping, like, oh, my God, we're in a society full of apes and they're riding on horses with nets and chasing us down, like, kind of stuff from the first movie. And so I think the third act needed a little bit more tension on the run. Like, I think that we get good scenes of it. Like, I think the final confrontation is pretty much perfect. Like, when, you know, hazline shoots zero and then, like, cornea shoots him and then, like, they all get gunned down by the military and whatnot. That's all perfect.

01:14:17
Case Aiken
But I think we just needed a couple shots of them trying to find a safe place to, like, hole up and being, like, cut off by the military or being, you know, having like, a little bit of a chase. And, like, some of it is just that, you know, we're talking about two actors in their forties, in, like, heavy prosthetics. Like, they're not going to be able to do, like, crazy kind of. Like, you could put stunt action beats.

01:14:37
Maynard
Put stunt people under any of that make also true.

01:14:40
Case Aiken
Yes. Yeah, exactly. And like, as we keep saying, any make you know, they could have any makeup on them. They don't even need the, like, hero mask. They could have, like, much cruder prosthetics that just, like, look kind of right from a long shot.

01:14:51
Maynard
Yeah, yeah.

01:14:52
Case Aiken
And, like, it's not the era of, like, parkour or something, but, like, how fucking cool would that be to have, like, them, like, running with their baby and, like, you know, like, they're running up through an alley and, like, you know, military jeeps, like, pull up, and so they have to, like, start climbing up a fence and, you know, like, you know, playing to the fact that they're apes. Like, you know, have. Have climbing be a part of them, trying to elude everything. And that shipyard is big and a very cool set piece and would not require, like, a lot of, like, construction or anything to make it all work. Like, you could just have them, like, have scenes of them running on a boat and then, like, sliding down, like, a ladder and then move on to the next boat. Like, it's.

01:15:28
Case Aiken
It would still be really interesting. You have some helicopters chasing them, you know? You know, just make it more dramatic, because I think that after the first half of the movie being, like, lower energy in that regard, like, it's light and fluffy and it's. It's not that it's gonna appeal to the. To an adult audience more than it would to a kid audience, but I think this movie being a g rated movie is despite the fact that they are all about murdering children in this movie, like, as a g rated movie, the intent was that for to be parents bring their kids to see it. Maybe not the littlest kids, but at least, like, you know, high school kids.

01:16:01
Maynard
I don't know if they're gonna murder children. I think children is the term for human. Like, a human offspring as a child. This is an ape offspring. So it's not, you know, it's whatever. Whatever you call up a baby chimp.

01:16:15
Case Aiken
Sure.

01:16:15
Maynard
But they have some name.

01:16:16
Case Aiken
They've got a name, but, and they also kill the art heroes. Like, they get gunned down. Like, it's a brutal.

01:16:22
Maynard
Still not humans, but, yeah, still not humans.

01:16:25
Case Aiken
And. And apes don't matter.

01:16:27
Maynard
That's it, exactly. Yeah, that is. That would be the ultimate way they take it.

01:16:33
Case Aiken
But, yeah, so that's my big thoughts on it. But I. Again, like, I was very tempted just to write notes because it was commercially successful enough for the project that we had. And I fucking love this movie. I think, you know, we keep saying it's the second best after the original. Like, it's charming as hell. Like, it nails everything I needed to know.

01:16:53
Maynard
It's tied with the Simpsons musical version of Planet the Apes, which is amazing. Stop the plan of the apes. I want to get off.

01:17:01
Sam
Yeah, yeah. I've made case sing at least one of the songs every time while you.

01:17:07
Case Aiken
Were, while you were up during the break.

01:17:12
Maynard
I hate every ape I see, from chimpanzee to chimpanzee. No, but yeah, no, this is an excellent movie. I think it mirroring the first movie is genius. I think it being a lighthearted comedy is the right way to go for this franchise that already is so dark and laborious. Like, if you're gonna go through all of these films, this is a great breath of fresh air as the third movie. Like, you're re energized and ready for the next two and you've got the two most likable characters from the first movie back. So you've got some fan favorites returning there. And they set up the cyclical nature of the next three films. This is kind of where like the, like I consider next three films, they were kind of a standalone trilogy in themselves.

01:18:05
Maynard
And so like the third film decided to kind of go start its own trilogy. It opens that possibility too. So, yeah, everything we're saying is nitpicky. It'd be nice to see more of Doctor Milo. It'd be nice to explore some other stuff. But this movie's doing everything it needs to do.

01:18:19
Sam
Yeah. And it's a fun movie. I mean, even if you hadn't seen any of the other films, you could watch this and still have fun. You might be like slightly lost, but yeah, they usually give you some backstory. You'll be fine.

01:18:31
Maynard
I'd at least see the first.

01:18:32
Sam
You can watch this.

01:18:32
Maynard
But, but you could, yeah, you could.

01:18:34
Sam
You could just have fun with this.

01:18:35
Case Aiken
Yeah. I was thinking about that when I was watching this movie where it's like, if you were coming in totally blind, would you be able to follow everything? And I think they do a pretty good job of selling you on it. And it, and it just helps that, like, Roddy McDowell and Kim Hunter are just like fucking great in this.

01:18:50
Sam
Yeah, yeah.

01:18:50
Maynard
And, and it gets them out of the corner that the last movie painted the franchise into. Right. Because Charlton was just like, screw this. Blow up the planet and no more flying the ape movies. And they were like, well, you know, I think here's how we can get back.

01:19:11
Case Aiken
Yeah. Not many franchises can have the world end in their second movie and then go on to have seven more.

01:19:19
Sam
I, too, also wanted to say notes, but I didn't want to be accused of, yet again, setting a coup, as I have been the one time I did it.

01:19:32
Maynard
What did you coup?

01:19:33
Sam
I refused to another pass. Disney's Hercules.

01:19:36
Case Aiken
Yeah. And then got one of our guests to join her in her coup.

01:19:41
Sam
I was like, is it flawed? Yes. Do I love it? And it's perfect? Yes. No notes.

01:19:48
Maynard
Yeah. I mean, the things we're saying are also matters of budget and recasting, you know, so this. I don't know what the script looked like as is, but, yeah, if we can. If we can recast that guy so he could be in the movie longer, great. If we can kind of make the prosthetics and makeup look better, great. If we can get stuntmen into those prosthetics to do some more action packed escape things with 1970s parkour. I don't know. I'm sure they had it, but it didn't have a name yet.

01:20:17
Case Aiken
Yeah, but I mean, the thing is, like, hobo crawling. Yeah. I just don't like. I don't know how much is realistically, like, how much wiggle room we would have with this movie. It is such a small budget. It was, you know, so creative to write it the way that they did, and they, you know, they were locked in on a bunch of it. So, yeah, it's the. There's only small stuff that you could change. And I honestly think that the movie is not a bigger hit just because more people didn't see it. You know, if it wasn't coming after beneath, which is not a good movie, but a lot of people saw, then I think that this would have been a stronger entry in the franchise. But it also definitely needed to be number three because I don't know if.

01:20:58
Case Aiken
If beneath was a better movie, I don't know if you would have made this movie.

01:21:01
Maynard
Yeah, well, and if Beneath didn't end the right, you know, and destroy the planet. Yeah. Part, which is part and parcel of making it better. Yeah, but, yeah, I think this would have had to been told anyway because I think the way this franchise works is that cyclical timeline. So I do think it would have happened. It just might not have been three. Could have been the fourth, could have been the fifth.

01:21:23
Case Aiken
Yeah, but fucking wild, man. Like, for a movie that started off about being like, yes. You know, astronauts going faster than light, you know, arrive back on Earth accidentally, it's now all apes up now time traveled, and we're gonna have a seventies rom.com sequence like, all right, wild fucking movie. Wild fucking franchise. I'm so glad that we're talking about them right now.

01:21:45
Maynard
Yeah. And it's interesting as a g movie, too, because, I mean, you could see this movie, if it were made now. Like, they would have done a lot more of the darker stuff. Right. I mean, they would have done, you know, apes getting drunk, giving into the indulgences that they didn't have at their time. You know, they. You know, these two live very conservatively. You know, they're not going out and. And getting drunk. And wild drugs. You know, it's the seventies, but no one even. No one does cocaine or anything.

01:22:10
Case Aiken
Milo should be doing cocaine. Yeah, there you go. Milo.

01:22:15
Maynard
He's cooked out, and he's talking about how nuclear proliferation is going to take down the world. He joins. He joins a resist. He joins the Black Panthers, and he gets beat down in a protest.

01:22:30
Sam
I love it.

01:22:31
Case Aiken
God, that would have been great. Yeah, yeah. We spotted the big flaw in this movie, which is just that Milo is taken out too soon, and it could have been dramatically, really interesting.

01:22:42
Maynard
Yeah, yeah. You know, because you don't really want to see Cornelius or Zira do it. They're sort of meek and humble, and they're like.

01:22:54
Sam
Yeah. And they're also, like the perfect couple. Right. We want them to feel like the sitcom couple. We want them to feel like, you.

01:23:01
Maynard
Know, well, they have to be the parents, right, because they're gonna have the baby, and you have to hope in your heart of hearts they can have this baby and raise the baby well. Whereas Doctor Milo could be the coked up rock star all he wants, and no one will mind.

01:23:16
Case Aiken
Well, so here's a question for you, Maynard. If this was on trial, would this be ruled as a bad movie or a good movie?

01:23:24
Maynard
Oh, it would totally be not guilty. Completely be not guilty. I think most of them would get off, except beneath. And, gosh, if I had to fight for beneath, I might be able to argue about the things that went well enough. But. But, yeah, no, I would definitely get off. We did do the marky mark.

01:23:42
Case Aiken
Yeah, I listened to the episode.

01:23:44
Maynard
Remind me if we did guilty or not guilty. I think we. I think it. I think it went not guilty based on how good the practical effects were. I'd have to. I'd have to go to my database of.

01:23:57
Case Aiken
Yeah, that's one of the first ones.

01:23:58
Maynard
I listened to, is not a Google Doc spreadsheet. There are people who think it is a Google Docs spreadsheet, but it is not. It's a high tech supercomputer where we keep all our verdicts stored in a mountain protected by a dragon. Oh, we did caught. We did find it guilty. Well, we did find it guilty, but, yeah, I know that the technical stuff is what was really heralded. And the monkey human sex was unappreciated, but that's what I'm saying. That is where stuff would go nowadays. If the movie was made now, there would be a lot more talk about Doctor Milo coked out rockstar having orgies. You know, that's what he would do.

01:24:45
Case Aiken
So for listeners who kind of zoned out at the beginning of the episode, give a reminder about what the podcast we're just talking about actually is like. And where can people find it? And where can people find you?

01:24:56
Maynard
So, reels of justice is available everywhere. Spotify and Stitcher, Apple podcasts. You can find us at buzzsprout, reelsofjustice.com. You can just Google reels of justice, too, because I'm pretty sure we're the only one. And basically, it's a fake movie court. We pick a movie every week. We have a guest on who either prosecutes or defends it, and then one of us takes a turn as the alternate whether we need to prosecute or defend it. And we try to determine if the movie is guilty of being a bad movie. And that's a lot to prove. Bad movie. Mediocre movies get off. You know, man, movies get off. It's got to be an actively bad movie.

01:25:44
Maynard
And then the others of us, we take turns as the judge and as the jury, and then we deliberate at the end about what the arguments kind of swayed us and didn't sway us, and we come up with a verdict. So, yeah, you can find it anywhere. You find podcasts, basically. I'm also. I've started a new YouTube project with a buddy of mine, which is probably of a similar interest to your guys, and we call it fix it in five. So it is kind of like your show, but it's five minutes, and so we have to. We have to fix it in five minutes. And we have a chess clock. We each only have two and a half minutes. We have to make a point as fast as we can and then slap and slap the clock to go back to each other.

01:26:23
Maynard
He wanted to do a fix it show. I'm like, there's fix it shows. Let's try to fix it in as small a time as we possibly can. So it's called fix it in five. At this point of recording, only a few episodes have dropped, but if you're listening to this, maybe there's been half a year of stuff out by now. And there and that same friend, we also have another YouTube project called Trailer Trashed. And we watch trailers and we get trashed. So it's kind of a review show, but it's kind of mystery science theater as well because we kind of riff the trailer and mock the trailer. And we're usually putting out at least one or two of those a week as well for any major trailer releases that come out.

01:27:04
Maynard
So be interesting to see if that project is still going on now while you people listen to it. But if you Google trail of trash, you should be able to find it out there as well.

01:27:13
Case Aiken
Yeah, people should absolutely check out all of that. I did not know about fixit in five, and I'm going to check it out as soon as we get off this call. And on social media, if people wanted to find you specifically, where could they find you?

01:27:25
Maynard
I'm a Neynard bangs on Twitter, but I don't really use it much, so it's easier if you just follow reels of justice on Twitter. I'm usually more responsive there. And we're on Instagram at Reels of justice and facebook.com reelsofjustice. You can join our Facebook page, and then you can join our group, which is called the film jurors. So we try to talk about, we can post up ideas of movies and we can discuss if they're good or they're bad. And always follow our social media for our recommendations of justice that we share all the time from each one of our episodes. You know, we're always taking recommendations from guests, so we're always sharing those out on our social medias, too.

01:28:07
Case Aiken
Yeah, I think that's a really nice part about your show. Like, not just being like, all right, we talked a lot about this movie, but, like, what else is good that's out there that someone would actually want to talk about?

01:28:15
Maynard
Yeah, that was. It was our co host, Big Ben had the idea was like, can we ever say good things about movies? Like, can we do a. Can we close the show with a palate cleanser? Like a recommendation, like. But we frequently recommend movies that are not good. That's the thing. You're supposed to recommend a movie that you think people should see. That doesn't mean it's good, right? I want you to see bad movies, and I want you to suffer the way I've suffered. So I frequently. We've almost recommended every Charlie Bronson like Bronson Thompson collaboration movie. That happens.

01:28:52
Case Aiken
It's still a nice breath of fresh air at the end of every episode. And so people should definitely check out rules of justice. They should check out fixed, fix it in five, trailer trash, all that great stuff. Maynard, thank you again for coming on the show.

01:29:03
Sam
Yeah, thank you.

01:29:04
Maynard
Hey, thanks for having me. And we'll have you guys on soon to defend and prosecute something.

01:29:09
Case Aiken
I swear I won't use the Beowulf defense.

01:29:11
Sam
That is a lie. He probably will.

01:29:13
Maynard
It works for every movie.

01:29:15
Sam
What can you do if it's there? He will go Beowulf. He will.

01:29:21
Case Aiken
If I can find a next time, it'll be the Gilgamesh defense. Oh my God, Sam, where can people find you and follow you?

01:29:29
Sam
They can find me here on another pass or on our discord when I remember it exists. And then after that, nowhere else because I am going to find a circus that treats animals really fairly because I love that fairy tale. So I'm going to go find that with people flipping. And it's going to take me a long time. So you are not going to be able to have any access to me because it probably doesn't exist. But if you have any comments of anything I said today and any complaints or you just want to talk to case about Beowulf or the Planet of the Apes, you can find Ace at.

01:30:04
Case Aiken
You can find me on Twitter.

01:30:05
Sam
I called you Ace tonight instead of case. I don't know what's wrong.

01:30:08
Case Aiken
It's okay.

01:30:09
Sam
That's my friend's dog.

01:30:10
Maynard
AC Casey.

01:30:11
Sam
My dog's, my friend's dog's name.

01:30:14
Maynard
Ace.

01:30:14
Sam
Case. Sorry. It's a very adorable dog.

01:30:17
Maynard
Case the ace.

01:30:21
Case Aiken
Well, you can find me on Twitter, Ace Aiken. You can find the podcast at another pass. You can find more episodes of this show@certainpov.com where you can also find a link to the discord server that Sam mentioned before. Check that out. We have a great community that we're building. You get sneak peeks of upcoming episodes, fun discussions. You should also check out the clips that we're putting out for another pass. So they're called quick passes. They're on our YouTube channel for certain pov media. So little bites from the episode, but animated. So check it out. I been really happy to put those out there and just have another format for the show to be out in the world. Check all that out and then head back over to certainpov.com where you can find the next episode of this show.

01:31:04
Case Aiken
Sam, what are we talking about next time.

01:31:06
Maynard
Well, this is the forward pass.

01:31:09
Sam
The forward pass, everyone. Next time, brace yourself. We'll be talking about beneath the planet of the apes.

01:31:16
Case Aiken
Boom.

01:31:18
Sam
But until then, if you enjoyed this, pass it on.

01:31:27
Maynard
Thanks for listening to certain point of views. Another past podcast. Don't miss an episode, just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com dot.

01:31:40
Sam
Another pass is a certain pov production. Our hosts are Sam Alicea and case Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm. Our logo and episode art is by case Aiken. Our intro theme is by Vin Macri. And our outro theme is by Matt Brogan. I don't know why I dream of Jeannie just popped into my head. Maybe we're talking about the seventies.

01:32:00
Case Aiken
Wasn't he an astronaut in that? So doesn't that kind of.

01:32:03
Sam
Yeah, yeah, he was. I believe he was also a colonel. There's a lot about space and just people who worked around space in the seventies.

01:32:17
Case Aiken
Yeah, seemed to be. I mean, it was huge in our zeitgeist, so it makes sense that we would talk about it ad nauseum. In everything.

01:32:25
Sam
Indeed. Doctor Zaeus. Doctor Zaeas. Every time.

01:32:30
Case Aiken
Oh, Doctor Zeus. Can I play the piano anymore? Of course you can't. Well, I couldn't before.

01:32:43
Sam
I wonder if Matt is tired hearing this, since I've made you sing it every time.