Another Pass at Another Pass at The Dark Knight Rises

Let’s look back at the time Ben Milton and Addy Thomas joined Case to talk about The Dark Knight Rises!

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Transcription

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00:06
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another pass at another pass podcast. I'm case aiken, and as always, I am journeying down memory lane with my co host, Sam Alicea.

00:16
Sam
Hi.

00:17
Case
And today we are looking back at episode eight of the show when we are talking about the Dark Knight rises. So, Sam, this is a episode with Ben and Addie where we're looking back at the end of yet another trilogy. In this case, it is the Dark Knight trilogy. When did you see this movie?

00:36
Sam
I saw it in theaters for sure. Like, I was. I mean, listen, you come off that second film and that second film, I mean, there were full plot holes and things, but it is so good. Such good performances. And you forget, right? You forget. You kind of, like, your brain kind of goes to sleep and especially with, like, how great those performances were. So I saw this in theater. I was very excited to see this in theater. And I definitely left theater going, no. What? Why? For so much of it. But yes. Yeah, yeah. That's pretty much how I felt.

01:20
Case
Yeah, I remember the critics at the time who got to see it in advance were generally, like, kind of meh. And people were, like, really upset that they were kind of meh about it. And then I saw it and I was like, oh, I get it.

01:34
Sam
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this movie is seriously flawed. And I think once people get into this episode, I think there's a lot of really good observations that everybody in this episode makes. And I think one of my favorite observations is just, there are just so many villains in this. And I agree. I agree with the statement that maybe we don't need that Hollywood. Maybe we don't need the second, 3rd or fourth movie to be chock full of everyone in the villain verse. Yeah, it just. Yeah, it gets all muddled.

02:21
Case
We should let the episode speak for itself on that front and then we'll come back to it and talk about that to give people a heads up on terms of quality and everything. So this is a Ben and Addie episode done at the CPOV studios back in the day. So we are all in the room together, so the audio quality isn't that bad. But we do have an issue with the number of mics in play. There is some static every now and then, I guess like someone put their foot on a line or something, you know, but there's like some XLR kind of static that pops in every now and then. Yeah, it sounds pretty good. Overall, we're finding our footing. This one's actually recorded a bit earlier in the cycle.

02:59
Case
I think this may have been the second recorded episode, certainly on the early side, but the reference to end of trilogies and stuff is because the return of the Jedi episode is what we had just done right before it. Like I said, this may have been even the same night that we did return of the Jedi. And so I'm finding my footing as a host still more so even than in the, like, the last two or three episodes, because it's so new to me at that point. But I, you know, we've got most of the big beats at this point. It's a bit more of a free for all in terms of a conversation. But I think it's a pretty fun episode. So unless you have anything else to say, we should let the listeners, you know, take a listen.

03:43
Sam
Take a listen. Yeah, yeah. Do it.

03:47
Ben Milton
Yeah.

03:50
Case
Welcome to certain point of views, another pass podcast. Be sure to subscribe, rate, and review on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com dot.

04:00
Case
Thank you for tuning in to another pass podcast from certain point of view. I'm Casey Aiken, your host. And tonight with me is Ben Milton and Addie Thomas.

04:08
Addy Thomas
Hey.

04:09
Ben Milton
Hey, guys.

04:10
Case
And today we're gonna be talking about the Dark Knight rises. It's one of those movies that is not quite as good as the one we talked about last week. I would argue that it's a crappy.

04:21
Ben Milton
Movie, is what this one is.

04:23
Case
It's hard to say that. You know what? It's disappointing. Is the real term disappointing, Dev?

04:27
Addy Thomas
Because there are aspects of it that are so promising in this movie.

04:31
Case
Yeah. Now, I wasn't trying to lead off our show, just talking about the ending of trilogies and how they don't live up to the middle chapter every time. It happens a lot, but it's gonna happen. And we got other ones on the docket, but right now.

04:43
Ben Milton
Yeah.

04:43
Case
Like Dark Knight rises, man, that's disappointing. Batman begins with so good, and the Dark Knight is so good, and it was so unique at its time, and then this movie is not, and it's painful for that.

04:56
Addy Thomas
And the Dark Knight is the gold standard, has practically become the gold standard by which all other superhero movies tend to be judged.

05:03
Case
I don't know if it's really the standard and has been for a long.

05:06
Ben Milton
Time, but it's starting to change, I think.

05:08
Case
I think that. Well. Cause the thing is, the Dark Knight came out the same summer as Iron man. And Iron Man, I think, is really the movie that set the tone for how modern superhero movies are done. I think the Dark Knight shows the most you can do for the old model of superhero movies, like, Batman begins felt like a similar movie to other movies so far. Like, Batman begins felt cut from the same cloth, but a different director doing it as the first Batman movie or, like, the 89 Batman movie.

05:33
Ben Milton
Yeah, but don't you think that, like, with Nolan's, like, dark and gritty, like, we hadn't really seen the Tim Burton.

05:40
Case
Batman movie is doing the dark and gritty Batman? Like, that was. That was the story.

05:44
Ben Milton
It's still very cartoony. It's still very cartoony.

05:47
Addy Thomas
I mean, you got, I mean, it's Tim Burton, his cloak, and, like, people just falling over, you know?

05:52
Case
Well, the fact that it's Tim Burton and the fight choreography is awful and all that jazz, like, sure, that's all there, but, like, we also had, like, nineties spawn. Like, there were a bunch of nineties dark movies. Like. Like, they were doing dark comic book movies and other, actually, there were some amazing dark comic book movies from, like, indie books at the time, which I don't. I don't know when they're gonna do another indie book, but they, you know, like, they did wanted, which was not.

06:15
Case
Good, but at least it was based.

06:16
Case
On a dark book.

06:17
Addy Thomas
And v for vendetta.

06:18
Case
Yeah, v for vendetta Watchmen was post dark night.

06:22
Addy Thomas
Yeah, it was around the same time. It was close.

06:25
Case
Oh, you know what? You're right. You're right. It was about the same year, actually. I think now 300 was around 300. Yeah, 300 came out before that. You know, like, road to perdition came out before that, which is one of my, like, gold standards of how good a comic book adaptation can be. But that's because no one knows it's a comic book movie.

06:41
Ben Milton
That's how you can tell it's a good adaptation when nobody knows it's a comic book. Comic book.

06:44
Case
Well, that's because it's based on a fairly obscure comic book that's based on a well known manga, but, like, yeah, it's a really good story. Good story, yeah.

06:52
Addy Thomas
And that's what falls apart in Dark Knight rises.

06:54
Case
Yeah, story.

06:56
Case
Well, like, here's the thing. Like, the Dark Knight was everything Christopher Nolan ever wanted to say about the nature of heroism. And in the modern world, like, Batman begins was about how a person can rise up, but Dark Knight was him being like, we're going to take a crazy person and test a man about, like, Christopher Nolan. Movies are always about, like, men who are, you know, objective and, like, willing to keep on moving forward and do things because they're competent and great. And that's how humanity is going to prevail. And, like, using Batman as sort of, like, the apex of that, like, the Dark Knight was showing, like, how far can you push a man and how great an adversary can he face and still be a hero and, like, still come out of it on the side of right.

07:36
Case
Maybe not on the side of law, but on the side of right. Right. And Dark Knight rises doesn't do any of that. Like, here's the thing. When I saw Dark Knight rises, I came out of it, and my first reaction was like, huh, that wasn't that great. But my second reaction was, but at least they didn't just do the Dark Knight returns. And then when I woke up the next morning, I was like, fuck. They did just do the Dark Knight Returns, God damn it. It actually is pretty close when you think about it. All they did was they sort of took other comic book references and overlaid it.

08:07
Addy Thomas
The fake Death of Dark Knight Returns is a whole lot better. Let me just put it that way.

08:11
Case
Yeah. Like, so, like, I go back and forth in the dark night returns because it was so good at the time when it came out. And, like, you and I go see.

08:19
Ben Milton
That opening weekend together. We saw Dark Night at the uptown.

08:23
Case
We saw Dark Knight together.

08:24
Ben Milton
Saw Dark Knight together.

08:25
Case
Yeah.

08:25
Addy Thomas
Yeah. You saw dark night rises?

08:26
Ben Milton
Me, right.

08:28
Case
Yeah. No, I said I thought. No, that's right. I saw Dark Knight rises as part of an AMC movie night where they did all three Batman up until the midnight screening. And they had just done this with Avengers a few months earlier. And that was amazing. And I was, like, so pumped for this one because I'm like, but you know what? I love the Avengers movies, but you know what's also awesome? Batman. Right? And after this is when I started talking about how Batman's a klansman. No, because here's the thing. Like, I think the story that they try to do with Batman is one where, one, they do it twice. Like, they do how Batman gets his groove back at the beginning and then.

09:05
Addy Thomas
He does it again, which is always a big problem.

09:07
Case
They never really do a good job with Bane. Like, they use bane, and no one likes to use bane, but they use bane because he's, like, a fan favorite from the nineties. And people wanted to use a name character.

09:17
Addy Thomas
I thought they put a good twist on him, tying him to the League of shadows.

09:21
Case
Oh, I absolutely would have done that. That's not the problem. The fact that they don't do any bane things with him. It's just the name, I think is.

09:29
Case
The bigger breaking the back you don't.

09:30
Addy Thomas
Consider a bane thing?

09:31
Case
What I mean is more of, like.

09:33
Ben Milton
You don't deal with the venom and all that other stuff.

09:35
Case
Yeah. Like, people were like, oh, he's not big enough. I'm like, well, what if he gets a little bit bigger when he does it? You know what would have worked fine is if that mask had, like, a stimulant that, like, shot into him, and all of a sudden, he was, like, a little bit more aggressive.

09:44
Ben Milton
Right.

09:44
Case
Like, he doesn't need to grow.

09:45
Ben Milton
He.

09:45
Case
If it's the realistic world, but, like, still have. Have a nod so that the character is still there, because right now, he's just the mutant leader from. From Dark Knight rises or, pardon me, Dark Knight returns.

09:56
Addy Thomas
Yeah, and he didn't have a. And if he at least had a line like the. This is my operating table, then I would have totally nerded out for that. Oh, God. Every time I think about this movie, I just get so depressed.

10:08
Case
Well. Cause there's so many good pieces. Like, yeah, but there's all these big logic gaps, and they don't work the same way that, like, Dark Knight had.

10:15
Case
Big logic gaps that were okay.

10:17
Case
With because the movie just moved. And it, like, you know, that opening heist with the Joker is so cool, but it doesn't make any sense. Like, it's like, wait, the bus, like, pulls in. That guy just didn't shoot him. Why?

10:25
Ben Milton
What?

10:26
Case
Why is any of this happening that way? Like, none of that makes any sense, but it sets up. Oh, the Joker's a billion strategist. Yeah. Like, the thing is, the. The League of Shadows stuff kind of is the plot that I would have done the second Batman movie for, like, I had when Batman begins, I was like, I hope the next movie is Bane and maybe Deathstroke and there are two super assassins coming from the League of Shadows. Then we can move past the League of Shadows and move on to other Batman stuff like this movie. It's sort of like, oh, here's this thing from your. I guess you could say it's like, here's the thing from your childhood that I did.

10:56
Ben Milton
Like, I kind of liked that callback to the League of Shadows and bringing that kind of full circle to close that at the end of the trilogy. I thought that was kind of a.

11:04
Case
Good idea, that they finally come back to him or something.

11:06
Sam
Yeah.

11:06
Addy Thomas
Because for me, the thing is, this trilogy had always been pointing to, and we just watched that super trailer, and the whole idea, like, was like. And they even talk about it in that last movie is this idea of Batman being a symbol. This Batman is a terrible detective. This Batman is not even a good action hero, to be perfectly honest.

11:24
Case
The fight choreography is not that much better than it was in the Tim Burton movie.

11:28
Addy Thomas
But this Batman is a crusader. Like, you know, it's grounded in that ideal of him becoming a symbol to inspire Gotham. He was never setting out to be this for the rest of his life. You know, right at the end of the first, at the end of Batman begins, there's this idea that he could stop being Batman, but that everything was sort of working against him, that he always had to be this guy.

11:50
Case
I completely agree.

11:51
Sam
And.

11:51
Addy Thomas
And this movie. And so that's why I like the idea of the League of Shadows coming back to sort of, like, test his resolve in being Batman, to have to come out of retirement. I actually like the idea of him having to come out of retirement. They shouldn't have done it twice. Absolutely. Like, the whole idea of him, like, coming out once and then having the magic knee brace and then having a few pretty lame action scenes, to be honest.

12:13
Ben Milton
Yeah.

12:14
Addy Thomas
And then the one action scene I do like is the breaking of his back. I really liked it.

12:19
Case
Really well done.

12:20
Addy Thomas
And not having any music with it, I think it was a great decision. It worked for me. I love Bane's voice in that movie, and I love the whole, you know, you were adopted by the darkness. I was born in it like that.

12:32
Case
Oh, yeah, I was fine with that. Like, we'd make jokes about him, but.

12:35
Ben Milton
Like, I really like Bane's the one thing I would keep in this movie.

12:38
Addy Thomas
And I even like the whole 99%, you know, occupy Wall street thing that's kind of going on in the discussion. Like, the Dark Knight had the discussion going on with, like, a little bit in the background of the story. They had the whole thing about the surveillance state. And then you had this.

12:53
Case
Yeah. And there was, like, the hints about Joker being a soldier.

12:55
Addy Thomas
Right.

12:56
Case
Yeah. Like, it was very much. I mean, their movies, a comment on their time and. Right.

13:01
Addy Thomas
And this hard to get away from that movie had a lot of the whole, especially with Catwoman, you had the whole occupy Wall street discussion, and they.

13:07
Case
Shot it down at Wall Street. I had friends who were extras in that, and they weren't allowed to shave because they're playing cops.

13:12
Addy Thomas
Right.

13:12
Case
Which then when you actually see the movie, none of them look like they have beards.

13:17
Addy Thomas
But it's disappointing because all that Occupy Wall street versus the 1% story never goes anywhere.

13:23
Ben Milton
It starts, like, the real movement.

13:27
Case
Man, if it was meta commentary about how they figure everything's gonna fizzle out, just like Batman. No, like, all right, so let's actually do, like, a pitch for the things to fix. Like, I think, like, for me, the.

13:41
Addy Thomas
Big thing that's gotta change is Batman's gotta die at the end of this movie. That's what disappointed me. For me, I think I could forgive a lot of these things because they even tease it throughout the entire movie. Is this idea of, like, you know, he has that conversation with Catwoman. It's like, you don't know these people anything. And it's not. He says, I haven't given them everything. And his quote isn't, I haven't given them my fake death.

14:02
Case
It's right. No, I completely agree with you.

14:05
Ben Milton
This would be.

14:05
Case
That's one of the two things I would have, like, overwhelmingly changed. The other one's the opening for me, which is that I don't think Batman should have been retired, because I think that betrays the Dark knight. It betrays the Batman we've been given so far, but it betrays the ending of the Dark Knight. I felt like the dark knight ends where he's gonna go off, and he's going to be a symbol. He is going to take on the burden of being this crazy vigilante. Even though the people in the note know he's actually really good, but he's still going to go off and beat Batman. I never felt like he was retiring at the end of the Dark Knight. I thought he was going off to continue being the Dark knight. Like, in the shadows, striking and making things good.

14:42
Ben Milton
Yeah, yeah.

14:42
Case
And at the opening of this movie, it's like, oh, no. That was literally when he retired. Like, it's not, like year. Like, it's. Yes, it's years later, but it's not like. It's like, oh, he went on for another five years and then retired. Now he's old. Like, it's like, ten years later. Something I think is the exact limit. Something like that. It's, like, not a big time gum. Yeah. Which leads to some weird scenes where people are like, oh, I've never, like, batman. I can't believe he's, like, still alive. And, like. Like, hold onto your seats, kid. Like, I was on the force back in the day when he. These are the moments where it feels like they did. The Dark knight returns.

15:16
Case
But that should have been more like a 20 year time jump instead of, like, Christian Bale still looks like a young man, except that he has to.

15:23
Ben Milton
Wear a knee brace now. Yeah.

15:24
Case
Like, Batman should have just been going, like Adi mentioned, we watched that, like, supercut of the trail of, like, of the trailers for the Dark Knight movies. Batman begins, Dark knight, and Dark Knight rises. And it's so good. Like, there's really nice symbolism and everything, but it never once did they talk about him retiring between Dark knight and Dark knight rises.

15:43
Case
Like, it just feels like.

15:44
Case
No, he keeps going. Like, it's the problem of the dark. Like he faces in Dark Knight is that he thinks he's got the status quo, and then the Joker shows up, and it escalates. In this case, it really should be like, he thinks he's got the status quo, and Bane shows up and totally destroys him. Like, joker is a mental threat. Bane is a mental and physical threat. And then he should have been broken and gone for years. Like, the time jump, the only big time jump that should have happened was between his back being broken and then somehow him, like, pushing, having his back rebroken into working again, whatever happens there. Chiropractor.

16:18
Ben Milton
I have an idea for that.

16:19
Case
Chiropractor.

16:20
Ben Milton
I have an idea for that. Yeah, I like the idea of his back being broken. And I like the idea of. I would strip this movie down to just Bane. I'd get rid of Talia, and I'd get rid of Selena. You don't need them in this movie. Like we have. Like this. There's this weird idea in Hollywood that pisses so much. Like, we had a movie with one really successful movie with one villain, so now we need two villains. Okay, well, we just had a movie with two villains. Now there's got to be four villains. Otherwise, this isn't gonna work. We've got to escalate the stakes. No, you have to tell a goddamn compelling story.

16:57
Ben Milton
And if you can do that with one villain and one character do that, you don't need to keep cramming all this extra shit in there just to cram it in there.

17:06
Case
I was.

17:07
Addy Thomas
Sorry.

17:07
Ben Milton
All right, so anyway, so Bane does what he does, captures Gotham, breaks Batman's back, but instead of sending him to this weird pit thing, he sends him to Arkham and imprisons him for crimes against Gotham in Arkham. Because essentially, because now he's running Gotham and Batman's a criminal, and so he locks him in Gotham. Lucius. And then he wages war on. On Gotham and Wayne Enterprises. Lucius, Alfred, and Gordon enlist Tim Drake to help break Batman out of Arkham. And now Lucius has since actually followed through in his promise in the last movie and quit Wayne Enterprises over the whole super spy equipment stuff. And, like, I'm not gonna do this because, you know, you gotta bring him out of retirement. No, he's gone to work with Lex Corp. Ooh. And so he now has access to the. The Superman suit.

18:01
Case
That Lex.

18:02
Ben Milton
It's a protocol.

18:03
Case
But you just said you didn't want to have multiple villains and shit.

18:06
Ben Milton
I don't. I don't. But he has access to the prototype of the super suit for Lexus. Superman fighting.

18:11
Case
How about instead of being break, he gets shrapnel in his heart and then he has to figure out.

18:17
Ben Milton
Close that.

18:18
Case
But that's what.

18:19
Addy Thomas
He's blind, guys.

18:22
Ben Milton
And then he gets it with gamma rays. No, but he uses that. She uses that prototype suit. So now you've expanded your universe into Lex Corp and Superman and that whole thing.

18:33
Case
Okay?

18:34
Ben Milton
And. And you've given him the tool in order to fight Bane fairly, but in the process, like, he's never able to recover from his broken back. And so he either dies or is completely incapacitated and by Bane in this fight, allowing then the Batman symbol to live on through Tim Drake, who picks up the mantle of Batman at the.

18:55
Case
End of the movie. Yeah. On that note, Joseph Gordon Levitt should have just. No, Tim Drake or Dick Grayson. Right. Should have been like. Why were they like. What did they. What was his name again? Oh, God.

19:06
Addy Thomas
Shit.

19:07
Ben Milton
Twits. Yeah. It doesn't even matter.

19:08
Case
It's like, my real name is Robin. Wasn't it?

19:11
Addy Thomas
Like, John Blake or something? Like.

19:12
Case
Something like that. Yeah.

19:15
Addy Thomas
Like, he could have been, like, anybody. Yeah.

19:19
Ben Milton
Yeah. That was disappointing.

19:20
Case
That.

19:20
Addy Thomas
And then his real name was. What was?

19:22
Case
Robin.

19:22
Addy Thomas
Yeah, it was Robin.

19:23
Case
Real name was Robin.

19:25
Ben Milton
Stupid. You should go by that.

19:27
Case
It's. It's cute.

19:28
Addy Thomas
Cute. Yeah, that's why he doesn't go by it.

19:30
Ben Milton
Yeah. So I think, like, that solves that problem, though, of the broken back and him coming back and him dying at the end.

19:39
Addy Thomas
Every time we talk about elements of this movie, I think of more complaints I have of this.

19:42
Case
Like, yeah, that's kind of the thing.

19:44
Addy Thomas
Like, look in your eye. I knew you were Batman. It was such bullshit.

19:49
Case
Oh, wait, but he knows it.

19:50
Ben Milton
He's a better detective than Batman.

19:52
Case
Yes, but Commissioner Gordon is like Bruce Wayne. Like, I thought that was just. I thought he just knew. And he just never said it, which was, like, the whole thing. I mean, that was kind of a Frank Miller idea, but, like, I dug that idea. And it felt like that was the thing they ran with. With the first two movies. And then all of a sudden it's like Bruce Wayne. What? Yeah, exactly like the take. I mean, this.

20:17
Addy Thomas
It was so hokey.

20:18
Case
This kind of feels like the Sherry mocker version of the first two movies where it's like, let's just go as campy as we can call back.

20:27
Addy Thomas
The other thing is like, you see, Ps.

20:29
Case
Schumacher. Batman movies were ahead of their time. They're not. They're not good. But I know what he was going for. Nope.

20:36
Ben Milton
Never forgive that man.

20:38
Addy Thomas
Batman has zero ingenuity in this movie.

20:41
Case
Agreed.

20:42
Addy Thomas
You know, there's. There's clever things. He's kind of. He does it, like, in the first. In Batman begins. Like, I mean, yes, it's Batman.

20:49
Case
Batman begins. He's a ninja, which isn't necessarily that he's a detective, but he at least is, like, effective at what he does is cool ideas.

20:55
Addy Thomas
Yeah, well, yeah, that's a great moment. I love.

20:58
Case
Yeah. From Batman, year one. Yeah.

21:00
Addy Thomas
You know, and then like. And then I like the idea of, you know, the cell phone technology and surveillance state stuff in the Dark knight, you know, just with the nature of what was going on with the threat. But there's nothing. Like, there was like, all right, well, we got the batwing guys in this movie and it was like, yeah, where.

21:19
Ben Milton
The hell did that come from? Yeah, you've been in retirement and the.

21:23
Case
And we have it hidden under a tarp, guys.

21:26
Addy Thomas
Remember, every five minutes we have to be reminded that the autopilot doesn't work. Cause why the fuck would you need.

21:30
Case
Autopilot in that thing?

21:32
Case
I can think of a lot of.

21:33
Addy Thomas
Reason for autopilot for that. Where do you have a parking space for that thing? You need autopilot.

21:39
Case
Where do you refill that thing?

21:40
Ben Milton
What are you talking about? Why do you have it? You've been in retirement.

21:45
Addy Thomas
Lucius was working on it.

21:47
Case
He doesn't have it.

21:47
Addy Thomas
Lucius worked on it and. Oh, the autopilot doesn't work.

21:50
Ben Milton
Okay.

21:51
Addy Thomas
Apparently Bruce fixes the autopilot because, you know.

21:55
Ben Milton
Yeah, he's an engineer.

21:56
Case
That would've been cool. You know what? You know, cool if Lucius Fox went off and was working on something else and that was his, like, Batman, and goes and finds him and they refit something else Lucius worked on at a different company or for the US government. Like, it doesn't. Lex Corp would be cool.

22:10
Ben Milton
But, yeah, here.

22:11
Case
Like the. Okay, so, like, one of the rules of these, like, repitches is like, we can't be talking about, like, the movies as they are now. We have to be talking about movies as they were happening then.

22:21
Addy Thomas
Right. Clearly not going to ever involve.

22:24
Case
Well, but that's the thing. There are weird elements of it.

22:26
Case
Like, this is a post of.

22:27
Case
It's. It is a post Avengers movie, literally, but it's. It's a post, like Marvel phase one movie. Like, very much so. Right.

22:34
Ben Milton
And easily spun this off well.

22:36
Case
And there are those elements, like, there, like, fact that they use Bane and that they.

22:39
Case
That they have.

22:41
Case
Her name is Robin. They have these moments in there. It's Nolan finally kind of, like, playing nice with fans, whereas he really didn't want to for the first two movies or especially the Dark Knight, like, the first. Yeah, well, that's because Goyer had more of a writing credit on the first one than. Yeah, like, Goyer was always gonna do that. Yeah, Goyer writing and then being tempered by somebody else. Yeah, by someone else is usually the way to go. Like, Goyer by himself, but Goyer with, like, Christopher Nolan, like, trying to make a good movie like that actually works out pretty well. This could devolve into Goyer anecdotes. Moving on. So the thing is, Batman, I felt we betrayed the Batman that we had up until that point.

23:26
Case
I felt that the villain that they present isn't really a worthy villain for what we want him to face. I think that they try to present him as being what Bane is, which is he's both smart and physically tough. And, like, how can Batman beat someone who's both as smart as him and stronger than him physically? We force too similar of an arc in the middle of the movie that happened at the beginning. And then all these stretches for how Batman gets back. And all the, you know, like, Lucius Fox could have been the answer for how Batman gets back and that Batwing could have been the answer for how he gets back.

23:59
Ben Milton
Or they put him in the freaking pit. The pit was unnecessary.

24:04
Case
You know, the thing is, like we said, were just talking about the. The supercut trailer. Like, him climbing up the. Or his dad, like, descending from the well and pulling him up and then cutting to him climbing up the well. You really see that symbolism of, like, go, like, ascending to the light, which is like a very Christopher Nolan kind of shot. And it's. It's very much a part of who Batman is. Like, his father coming from the light descending on is sort of the. Is. Is Batman, like the fact that there's a bat that flies by in that first or in that movie, like, in the. In the shots of that and Batman begins, that's who Batman is. Batman isn't the bat. Batman is the person coming. There's a swarm of bats and it's scary.

24:38
Case
And then there's this man who's like going to save you descending on a rope to like bring you back up into the light. Like, that's Batman to Batman.

24:45
Ben Milton
That's what he thinks he is, but he's really just nuts.

24:49
Case
That's, that's what I just said. He's, that's what Batman is to Batman.

24:52
Ben Milton
To himself.

24:53
Case
Yeah, exactly.

24:53
Ben Milton
His dad.

24:54
Case
Or like, or he's trying to live up to his dad, like saving the day from the scary bats.

24:59
Addy Thomas
Well, cuz that's a big moment in Batman begins is when, you know, grown up Bruce Wayne is down in the caves and, you know, and then the swarm of bats like surrounds him and he stands up, you know, in the middle of them, like that's a pretty triumphant moment. And this was supposed to.

25:13
Ben Milton
Yeah.

25:13
Case
Having him climb up, that would. That's a cool scene. It doesn't make any sense.

25:17
Ben Milton
No, not at all.

25:18
Case
You know what would have been better? If he was being forced to live inside of Bruce of Wayne Manor. Like if he was being trapped in his own cave, if bane broke in, beat him down and then they were like keeping him alive down there, like imprisoned in his own house.

25:30
Addy Thomas
That would have been cool. I think that would have been really good.

25:33
Ben Milton
Rather than burning down Wayne Manor, which was stupid. Like, why does rock crumble? Because it's fire.

25:42
Case
Wait, hold on. We're not bitching about the first movie, we're bitching about the third one right now. Thank you.

25:48
Ben Milton
It's all blurring together. All blurring together.

25:52
Addy Thomas
Yeah. But Wayne Manor, well, apparently, like clearly fake, like manipulation of stocks couldn't be.

25:59
Case
Undone by the, like no one would ever notice. It's like, oh, all of a sudden Batman just sold, or, pardon me, Bruce Wayne sold all of his money.

26:07
Sam
Woo.

26:07
Case
Right after like the stock market gets attacked. Like, nothing. Like none of that would have been allowed. Like the stock markets wouldn't have been open the next day.

26:14
Ben Milton
Yeah. And he would have got all of his money back.

26:16
Case
Yeah. Immediately. All of the money stuff is like ridiculous and. Yeah, and other people have done it.

26:20
Case
Like, well, like crack just did a.

26:22
Case
Video, I think a week ago talking about how dumb it was.

26:25
Case
Like, it was and it was.

26:26
Addy Thomas
Totally unnecessary because even like, you don't have to take away his assets for Bane to outsmart him. In fact, letting him continue to have it. Just smarter credit to Bane. But it they almost like, and I think that's a problem with this. Movie is they nerf Bane a lot for the sake of Talia al Ghul's reveal. And it felt like. And the Tali al Ghul reveal is a big problem for me because. For many reasons. But that. That's one moment where I feel like Nolan became a little too enamored with some of his gimmicks. Like, it really felt like, oh, I did this. I was able to pull off something in the prestige. I think I could pull off this as well. You know? And Talia, like, it just doesn't make sense for Talia to, like, not take her vengeance at any point earlier.

27:10
Addy Thomas
And not just that, like, you have. You have the broken back and you put him in the pit. So did she already know that Batman was gonna come back from that? Because she waits to reveal herself until he comes back to Gotham.

27:23
Case
Yeah, that probably should have been the reveal.

27:25
Ben Milton
And why didn't she just kill him?

27:26
Case
Why?

27:26
Ben Milton
Well, she's having sex with him in Wayne Manor.

27:29
Case
There's all this dumb stuff.

27:30
Addy Thomas
Yeah, I'm fine with her letting him stay alive and watching Gotham crumble.

27:34
Ben Milton
No, her whole idea was torture and kill him. She want him dead. Not, she wanted revenge for her father's murder. She wanted him dead.

27:44
Case
I don't think anything she does makes sense.

27:46
Addy Thomas
Yeah, I.

27:47
Case
We all knew Talia was coming. Like, that was. No, that was no surprise. You can't do a ra's al Ghul. Ras al Ghul, God damn it.

27:53
Addy Thomas
Yeah, I know.

27:54
Case
Yeah, they messed me up now. I just said it wrong. It's Ras al Ghul. You can't do a Ras al Ghul movie without having Talia. Like, that's ridiculous. Why would you, like. It's like doing. I'm trying to think of, like, the best example. It's like doing a Robin movie without Batman is frankly.

28:14
Addy Thomas
The biggest disappointment.

28:15
Case
No, but, you know, like, if you want to strip Batman of everything, like, all his assets and make him, like, prove himself, like, have him be revealed as Bruce Wayne and have him be a criminal.

28:25
Ben Milton
Done that. They could have done that using the previous movie, spy technology if Bane had been able to get his hands on that technology and use it to find out who Bruce Wayne is.

28:36
Case
Yeah, him.

28:37
Case
His sins. All of his sins coming back to haunt him. Yes.

28:39
Addy Thomas
And they did some cool stuff like that where he uses the sins of, like, them trying to cover up, you know, Harvey Dent's death and stuff like that.

28:49
Ben Milton
Goddamn, that was a disaster.

28:51
Addy Thomas
I like the idea.

28:52
Ben Milton
And there wasn't that much.

28:52
Case
He was really covering up. He was just sort of taking the fall for the other two kills. And then Harvey then fell to his death. Isn't that nuts?

28:59
Addy Thomas
Yeah.

28:59
Ben Milton
Yeah, that was a fucking disaster. Yeah, yeah.

29:02
Case
The use of it all was very weird. And they were trying to make some like overly broad statements about like the Patriot act, but where it's like Harvey dent Day or whatever. Inside, like, inside one city, martial law is going on and yet the rest of the world has no problems whatever. Like, Gotham City is a kingdom unto itself. And like, here's all the things. And Batman's its dark knight and Gordon is its king. Like, what? None of that makes sense.

29:23
Ben Milton
None of this makes any sense. Where is the National Guard?

29:27
Addy Thomas
Outside, remember?

29:28
Case
Where is an initial guard from?

29:30
Case
The sovereign state of the United States against the sovereign state of Gotham City.

29:33
Ben Milton
Yeah.

29:35
Addy Thomas
Fatal, holdable once you blow up Hines field. I think they took it seriously.

29:40
Ben Milton
You blow up a bridge. Apparently the National Guard is useless. Yeah, they did. They blew up the bridges.

29:46
Addy Thomas
No, they didn't.

29:46
Ben Milton
Oh, they only blew up the Hines field at that point. Yeah. When did they blow up the bridges? I don't think they actually do.

29:55
Addy Thomas
They do. They blow up the bridge.

29:56
Case
We just watched the supercut trailer where they show the scenes.

29:58
Addy Thomas
I thought they just had the.

30:00
Sam
The.

30:00
Addy Thomas
They had like a blockade on the bridge. Cause if you remember, they even run.

30:04
Case
No, no, it blows up the.

30:05
Addy Thomas
They tried getting John Blake on the bus to get the orphans out of the city.

30:09
Case
I do remember that.

30:10
Ben Milton
Yeah.

30:11
Addy Thomas
So there's another thing.

30:12
Ben Milton
Oh, no.

30:12
Case
It must've been later then. So. Cause the bridge wasn't traveling.

30:14
Ben Milton
No, because that's at the end. John Blake and the kids are at.

30:17
Addy Thomas
The very end of the bridge.

30:18
Case
Maybe it was one of the bridges and he allowed one to stay.

30:20
Addy Thomas
Yeah, they just left one bridge. It doesn't make any sense.

30:22
Case
I don't remember the one throw it.

30:24
Addy Thomas
Out of Gotham was.

30:25
Case
We can't keep track of how this movie goes because it doesn't make any goddamn sense.

30:29
Addy Thomas
Did the bridges.

30:31
Case
No, because.

30:33
Addy Thomas
Yeah, he forced them to use the fairies, remember?

30:36
Case
No, he threatened that there were bombs on the bridges, so they were using the ferry.

30:39
Addy Thomas
I thought he blew up the bridges and they had to use the ferry. Well, I don't.

30:44
Case
Holy hell.

30:45
Case
How did this happen?

30:46
Addy Thomas
Yeah, wait, how do I not remember this?

30:49
Case
I just rewatched Dark Knight.

30:51
Ben Milton
I'm positive. A positive bane blew up bridges. Yeah, he maybe didn't blow up all up, which doesn't make any sense.

31:00
Case
Why wouldn't you?

31:01
Ben Milton
Yeah, if you're gonna blow up bridges and isolate.

31:03
Addy Thomas
There was at least one bridge, though, that was still operational.

31:07
Case
Yeah.

31:07
Ben Milton
Cause that's the one that Batman stands on top of when he crawls out of the pit and miraculously gets back to Gotham City in 48 hours.

31:14
Case
Yeah. Again, it should have. That should have been a big time jump. Like, the opening of the movie should have been not as far forward in the future then. And Batman should have been, like, going on about his business being Batman, and then Bane shows up and fucks everything up and then, like, screws up Gotham real bad. And it could be like, cataclysm, you know, to tie in other Batman stories where, like, gotham gets cut off from the rest of America. In this case, it's because of super bad terrorist acts instead of, like, an earthquake and then follow, like, a couple, you know, I guess a couple years later, and it's like this weird wreckage where they can't even pin down where Bane is.

31:51
Case
He's like Osama bin Laden moving around inside the city so they can't, like, do a strike force to take him out. And it's like, so weird. Like, what is the national politics of a terrorist holding a city hostage?

31:59
Ben Milton
That's another question. Like, where are, like, we know what happens with Scarecrow, right?

32:05
Case
Where's Joker?

32:07
Case
Well, I mean, that was a conscious decision. Like, like they didn't want.

32:10
Ben Milton
But he should be there. Like, there's talk.

32:13
Case
I mean, yeah, I get it.

32:14
Addy Thomas
He pledges death.

32:15
Case
I get it.

32:16
Ben Milton
But he should be there. You should see signs of the Joker. You should see. You don't have to see him.

32:20
Addy Thomas
Yeah, but he should.

32:22
Ben Milton
Yeah, just if he's got to be in play, he's got.

32:25
Case
There's a scarf eat of the joker in places.

32:28
Ben Milton
He's got to be in play, right?

32:30
Case
Yeah, but he can't be so in play because then you're wondering, why aren't we seeing him more? Or why isn't he the real threat?

32:35
Addy Thomas
But that's. But that's.

32:36
Ben Milton
Again, that's the problem with this plot idea of taking over Gotham City and then releasing everybody out of Arkham.

32:42
Case
If you're going to release everybody out.

32:43
Ben Milton
Of Arkham, everybody's in fucking play. I'm sorry. Like, that's what deal.

32:48
Case
I mean, what if he breaks?

32:49
Addy Thomas
I didn't. They say it for this movie that he had been. I don't. So crappy reason. But he was, like, transferred to, like, iron Heights or something like that.

32:57
Case
I don't think they even outright say it.

33:00
Addy Thomas
Well, not in the movie itself. But I thought those, like, pre, like publicity.

33:03
Case
Yeah, I mean, there I mean, there was a lot of talk about it, and apparently Nolan had wanted to do stuff with. With Heath. Oh, absolutely. Again. And have him be a central figure. Like, I think you wanted to make. I mean, I don't know how much this is in taste, but if you wanted to make Bane a really badass and he destroyed, like, blows up our freeze joker, like, have him just drop the body, and you never even see his face, but drop, like, clearly, like, the green hair, like, into the water or something, and it, like, floats away or something like that.

33:29
Ben Milton
Like, oh, that would be so bad. Establishes dominance.

33:35
Case
Yeah.

33:35
Ben Milton
City. Oh, shit. That would be awesome, because I totally.

33:39
Addy Thomas
Would have bought dark savior in a way, and the whole idea.

33:41
Ben Milton
Yeah.

33:41
Case
Like, I've broken your knight, and now I've killed your jester and throws him into the wall.

33:45
Addy Thomas
Oh, so good. I like that a lot.

33:46
Case
That would be great. Like, those could be some cool moments. And then, like I said, like, osama the shit out of him. Like, have him be moving around, like, inside the city. They never know where he's based. And so, like, teams are trying to.

33:57
Ben Milton
Move around constellation, but he's got innocent people.

33:59
Case
Yeah, exactly. Like, you could make Bane a legitimate threat. You could even fucking keep Talia as, like, someone who he works with, like.

34:06
Case
Who is, like, on the outside.

34:07
Ben Milton
Like, contact back to the League of shadows.

34:10
Case
Exactly.

34:10
Case
But also, like, is the public face.

34:12
Case
On the other side, but not in the city, like, well.

34:14
Addy Thomas
Cause they kind of did it a little bit where, like, they don't really, you know, build on it or really, you know, execute it properly. But, like, he's almost like, the face of, you know, the 99%. And she's kind of working on the side of the billionaires and the 1%.

34:29
Ben Milton
Right? Yeah.

34:29
Case
She's supposed to be the nice face. Like, she's the only voice of reason and compassion in Wayne Enterprise.

34:34
Ben Milton
Yeah, that was garbage.

34:36
Addy Thomas
Well, I think. I think there's an interesting idea there. It's just not done.

34:40
Ben Milton
Well executed.

34:41
Case
Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's so many good ideas and well shot scenes and, like, all these things in this movie. This is not a good movie.

34:48
Ben Milton
What did you guys feel about the idea of Gotham rising up?

34:52
Case
That ton was self.

34:54
Addy Thomas
That was the most important part of it for me. Like.

34:56
Case
Like, the policeman rise.

34:57
Ben Milton
Mean, I won the.

34:59
Addy Thomas
I wanted to see. I like the idea. I like the idea of the police and the people rising. The execution of that, again in a big, like, Pickett's charge type moment doesn't make any damn sense. But you could. You could move, like, in a city. Why are you having a charge?

35:13
Case
You could have guerrilla warfare.

35:15
Addy Thomas
Yeah, you can have them still rise. You can. Like, you can. Like, I kind of imagined, like, when I remember seeing those trailers, like, and you saw the big fight in the street. Like, I thought, you know? And you even saw the confrontation with. With Bane versus Batman in the street. Like, I would think that's where they have their final fight. But Bane wins. Bane breaks him and kills him there. Reveals him as Bruce Wayne to the people. But the peoples take back off them that it's finally. That's finally the. This is finally the moment that they rise. I was okay with side of their apathy, you see.

35:49
Case
I was okay with Batman dying by way of, like, him getting, like, having to, like, winning almost. And then, like, the bomb at the very end, he tries to get away, and it blows up. Like, I'd be okay with that. Like, venture brothers did a really good parody of that in Aldous and Gargantua two, where, like, at the very end, a character sacrifices himself, and everyone's like, he's gonna get away in the last moment. And then it just, like, goes off. And Brock's like, nope.

36:13
Addy Thomas
The bomb never works for me. And this is not Nolan's fault, but this.

36:17
Case
Oh, it's dumb. And it was, like, 66. Sometimes you can never get rid of a bomb.

36:22
Addy Thomas
I just wish there were, like, ducks that went by at some point or something and, like, a bunch of nuns and, like, different places where he had to avoid.

36:30
Case
But I think we agree that Batman needed to be pushed to his limit and had to, like, willingly sacrifice himself. Now, if that's in a fight or to, like, carry a bomb far enough away, it doesn't really matter. Like, it's the willing sacrifice that needs to be the thing for him, because he needs to be pushed to himself. That is who Batman is. It's not.

36:46
Case
Oh, I, like, took a fall for.

36:47
Case
Someone, and now I'm like, I can't really go out in public anymore. Like, it should have been. He's broken, and then he thinks he's broken, and then he finally, like, forces himself back together, and then that's the moment where, like. Cause Batman is just drive and determination at this point. Like, well, that's what this Batman is. That's what this Batman, like. He's not a well rounded person. He is just Batman wearing a Bruce Wayne mask sometimes.

37:08
Addy Thomas
Yeah.

37:09
Case
And that's the thing. That's why I think the opening of the movie betrays the first two movies and sets the tone of a movie that just doesn't really have a message the way that the first two kind of did. Like, it's off brand at that point.

37:24
Ben Milton
I don't know what else you could do to fix this movie besides kill Batman. Like, I don't think there's any other way to end this movie and end this trilogy without making it.

37:38
Addy Thomas
That's the most powerful way to end it.

37:39
Case
Here's my question.

37:40
Ben Milton
Only the most powerful. It's the only correct way. Right.

37:43
Case
Let's say the movie is exactly as it is, except Batman does die.

37:49
Addy Thomas
That.

37:50
Ben Milton
How does that feel?

37:51
Addy Thomas
A lot for me.

37:52
Ben Milton
Raises its, raises its credibility.

37:54
Case
Yeah, because, a lot.

37:55
Addy Thomas
Then, like, you do have the moment. Because I do like the idea. Like, I liked, you know, the moments between Alfred and Bruce. Like, you know, Alfred didn't want to see the Wayne family end this way. And, you know, like, even, like, the, Alfred's ugly cry at the graveyard was sort of like, touching it in its own way, but then, like, they betray that immediately.

38:17
Ben Milton
Even Selena, like, Selena's comments about, like, you've given enough, right?

38:22
Addy Thomas
All of those had built to that idea. So if they had actually killed him. Yes, it's a very flawed story, but I think I'm able, I'm willing to ignore a lot of the flaws of that story because the message, as much as it had, like, went a couple different places. It didn't need to. It still stayed on, focused on the idea of him having to be the symbol to Gotham because then you have the statue and everything.

38:49
Case
Yes.

38:50
Addy Thomas
That's.

38:50
Ben Milton
It's the easiest way to fix this movie. Yeah, it is.

38:53
Case
Just right there. That feet. That movie feels better just with that one change. And the rest of the movie is still deeply flawed and doesn't make any sense. Like, and that's all.

39:01
Ben Milton
But it's satisfying, right?

39:03
Case
Exactly.

39:03
Case
We get, we at least get the.

39:04
Case
Payoff at the end, right? I think that one adjustment there. And if the opening Batman was.

39:09
Ben Milton
Still active, but that would help, but.

39:11
Case
Was being hunted by the police instead of, like, just he just fully retired. Like, he couldn't be out in public for too long because people would, like, cops would chase him and this would happen all the time. Bane shows up and breaks him and that, like, if that's it and that's not even really dramatically redoing that many scenes shot, like, we're actually talking about reshoots at that point. Not even full fledged, like, from start to finish remake, that movie is still better. Even with the giant plot holes and, like, awkwardness of the bomb and Talia and Bane not being really Bane and, you know, and Catwoman being shoehorned in there and, like, all these things going on in this movie that just doesn't just failed.

39:50
Addy Thomas
Well, Batman dying, you don't have to reshoot anything. All you have to do is show that empty table in Paris.

39:55
Case
Yeah.

39:56
Addy Thomas
Like, that's all you need. That's a so much more hollow, like, moment. But there's still, you know, but there's still also with.

40:05
Ben Milton
Then cutting back to John Blade and whatever his name is in the Bat cave.

40:12
Addy Thomas
Yeah.

40:12
Ben Milton
You know.

40:13
Case
Yeah.

40:13
Ben Milton
Those are, like, recognizing that he could take up that man, that symbol. Well, no, you weren't crazy about that because Batman didn't die. But if Batman died and someone takes somebody else taking up the symbolism of Batman, that's true. Now we see the costumes. Yeah.

40:29
Case
You know, so I had a bunch of friends who worked on it in a bunch of different cities, and a few of them knew a bit more about the story beforehand and told me about it beforehand. So the Robin thing, I was completely aware of 100% before I even, like, walked into theater or saw too many commercials. Like, it was like, oh, you know, Joseph Gordon Levitt's gonna be Robin. Okay.

40:46
Addy Thomas
That's what kind of expected him.

40:47
Case
A lot of people expected it. Like, in fact, some people were like, he's John Blake. What? But, like, I knew how it was gonna play out at the very end.

40:53
Addy Thomas
With that whole scene amalgamation of, like, several different robins.

40:57
Ben Milton
Yeah. Minus tights.

41:00
Addy Thomas
Yeah.

41:01
Case
Well, yeah.

41:02
Addy Thomas
None of them were acrobats.

41:03
Case
Right. I guess he was closest to Jason Todd. Like, if Jason Todd was just, like, in an orphanage and actually grew up to be a good kid eventually.

41:10
Ben Milton
Yeah.

41:11
Case
Like, it's what it was. Weird choice. It was weird just to not do it. Yeah, all these are weird.

41:17
Addy Thomas
It was a total dick.

41:18
Ben Milton
Dick tease.

41:19
Case
It was a dick move. A dick Grayson move.

41:24
Addy Thomas
Well, it's. I think it's funny because I don't understand why he needed the feeling to, like, why he felt he needed to hold back on that reveal. Like, it doesn't add any real surprise. Like, I'm like, I never felt like, oh, damn, that's Robin. When all of a sudden, he says, you know, his name, his real name.

41:41
Ben Milton
My name is Robin.

41:42
Case
Yeah, yeah. Not to mention that no character has ever been named Robin. Right.

41:47
Addy Thomas
Yeah. But it was a weird choice, but.

41:48
Case
He was Robin in role long before. Like, if the fact that. So your real name is Rob is so dumb. Yeah, I'm sorry.

41:58
Ben Milton
It's a little too on the nose. It's a little too on the nose. Which is surprising for Nolan. Like, he's not really known for.

42:06
Addy Thomas
He has the appearance of being complex, but he's not very. He's not nearly as subtle as I think.

42:13
Ben Milton
No, but he's not usually that on the nose.

42:15
Addy Thomas
Interstellar.

42:17
Ben Milton
Isn't that on the nose?

42:18
Case
This could be the beginning of the. Of the end. Yeah.

42:22
Addy Thomas
Like, I made, like, after Dark Knight rises, and I came to terms with how bad that movie was because I tried to convince myself was a really good movie.

42:30
Ben Milton
You love that movie when we first saw it. Yeah.

42:32
Addy Thomas
Because I was like, yeah. Like, as I thought about it was, like, really bad. And I went to see it again, I was like, oh, I like this movie. And then as time went on, I was like, no, that was a really, really bad movie.

42:43
Case
Yeah, like, when I came out of it, because, again, watched. Watched it all three in a row after working a full day. And I think I was pretty drunk at this point. Point, like, we had, like, brought in, like, booze into theater, and it walked. Went through all three of them getting drunker and drunker. Like it was coming out of the movie. I was, like, delirious and just like, in this weird place. And, like, I think I like this. I understand why people don't like this. I don't know what's going on. Where's my brain? And the next day I'm like, I'm hungover. This. Did I like it? I don't know.

43:12
Addy Thomas
I always felt they. I wish they had killed him. I always. I did always feel that.

43:16
Ben Milton
Well, you went into the movie, like.

43:17
Case
Swearing that they were gonna kill Batman, of course.

43:20
Ben Milton
And I told you flat, I swear to God, we would have this argument every day. Case he was like, they're gonna kill Batman in this movie. It's the only way that this whole story can end, because he's a symbol, and the only way that you can make the symbol live on is to kill the hero so that somebody can. Else can pick up the symbol and they're gonna do this. And I said to him, I swear, it's Batman. Yeah. DC is never going to let you kill Batman. Bruce Wayne. Yeah, it's never going to happen.

43:45
Case
They really should allow that for this story because it's the complete conclusion of the story.

43:49
Ben Milton
It's a complete conclusion of this story. You're absolutely right. But the nature of the way comics, books works is we're perpetually in the second act. We're never allowed to get to the third act where there's a real resolution and completion of the story. And so they're not going to let you do that because that's the only way that you can continue to have Batman stories.

44:12
Addy Thomas
Yep.

44:13
Case
Yeah. But the problem is that the Dark Knight is actually the break into three in terms of, like, the larger story arc because, like, the second act of Batman is him being Batman in the status quo of Batman fighting all the different bad guys and cleaning up Gotham. And then the break into three is like, oh, now the stakes were raised and things are actually going to come down crashing on you. So the Dark Knight is that break into three and then Dark Knight rises from. Should have been the conclusion.

44:35
Ben Milton
Yes, from a movie standpoint and from a trilogy standpoint. Standpoint, absolutely. But DC as a comic book company.

44:42
Case
Oh, yeah, I completely understand. Yeah.

44:44
Ben Milton
Didn't understand that at that point in time.

44:46
Case
I completely understand what you're saying, and I 100% agree. It's just dumb that they wouldn't allow that to happen.

44:53
Addy Thomas
Right.

44:53
Ben Milton
Because if they had, the movie would have been so much better.

44:57
Case
Just that one change would have made us all feel way more satisfied about it. And that's. I think that's the thing we've pinpointed. It's an awkward beginning that feels betraying of everything and an ending that is unsatisfying for the three movies that we.

45:14
Case
Just subjected ourselves to.

45:15
Case
And the first two have this one strong through line and theme that then the final one just completely misses that boat, but seems to espouse it up until the very end. It feels like it pulls back right at the end, and that sucks.

45:28
Addy Thomas
Yeah. And again, that pulling back right at the end because, like, they have you for a moment, they make you think it, and then I don't think it's even five minutes before they reveal that he's still alive.

45:37
Case
Like, no, maybe a minute and a half of actual movie time.

45:42
Addy Thomas
Right.

45:42
Case
But I feel like we're just beating.

45:44
Case
A dead horse right now. So thanks, everyone, for tuning in to another pass. Next week, we'll be talking about Highlander two, the quickening. Thanks, guys. And stay scruffy, my inner furders.

45:57
Case
Thanks for listening to certain point of View's another past podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com dot. Video games are a unique medium. They can tell stories, immerse us in strange, fantastic worlds, blur the very boundaries of our reality. But at the end of the day, video games are fun, whatever fun is to you. I'm Jeff Moonan. And I am Matt, aka Stormageddon.

46:47
Addy Thomas
And on fun and games, we talk.

46:48
Case
About the history, trends, and community of video games. It's a celebration of all the games we play and all the fun we find within them. And there's so many more games out there, so we hope you'll share in that conversation. Fun and games podcast with Matt and Jeff. Find us on certainpov.com or wherever you get your podcasts and happy gaming. And we're back.

47:11
Sam
Oh, boy.

47:13
Case
Yeah, so it's funny listening to this episode because I hadn't, like, revisited, like, the Schumacher Batman movies at this point, and I. And I wouldn't be coming from my current standpoint of, like, oh, no, there can't be fun. Like, I just casually just say, oh, they're bad, and make some jokes about them because that's sort of like the, you know, the in thing to do at the time, which I regret.

47:39
Sam
You know what? That's fair. I think we grow. I think we learn. And I appreciate that you apologize for them here, your viewpoint.

47:47
Case
I don't want to yuck anyone's yum about the Dark Knight rises. Like, I understand why you might think that it's a great movie, and I don't disagree that there are some really good things going on in it. You know, it's still way before we have gotten into whatever the state of, like, comic book movies are in now, where it's like CGI, like nightmares for everything, you know, and part of the pandemic and making it difficult to film all in one location and stuff.

48:14
Sam
Right, right.

48:15
Case
You know, yada, yada. There's lots of reasons for it, and I don't dislike all of these movies, but the era of this degree of practical effects that were all this excited about, for a superhero movie, is. It has been. It has been a minute. But, that said, I still think this is the weakest of the Dark Knight trilogy by a considerable margin.

48:37
Sam
Oh, for sure. I mean, I think. I think the biggest issues with this film is the structure and the writing. I mean, like, honestly, like, the performances overall bad. Like, there's no one who's, like, bad in this film. I mean, like, people make fun of, like, the bane voice and all of that stuff, but it's. It's not, it's not bad. And actually, I will say that listening.

49:02
Case
To this Oldman, actually, I would argue, even though I love Gary Oldman and he's a great commissioner Gordon, I think he is, like, just not doing a lot in this movie and, like, has several very clunky deliveries, particularly the Bruce Wayne bit that happens.

49:16
Sam
Okay. Yeah, that's fair. That's fair. I wasn't thinking of that. Well, that's just so odd. But do you think that's just him or do you think that's, like, the writing?

49:24
Case
You know, it's.

49:25
Case
It's hard to say exactly, but I will say that this movie had the least for him to do. And, yeah, you know, I don't think he did a lot with it as the other side of it all. I mean, like, I love to carry on. I am super not trying to, like, put anyone down in this because I generally agree. Good, good actors and, like, this franchise is great. I just think he didn't have a lot to do and the lines that he had were not delivered the best. But, you know, if you don't have any momentum, you can't be, you know, breaking records, so.

49:54
Sam
Yeah, yeah, fair enough. No, I think, like, just structurally, like, it's just so, you know, difficult on the timeline. Right. It's so hard to ignore the, like, really vast issues in this script. I think it's, like, not entertaining enough for you to, like, forget. Like, like, he breaks his back, he's in a pit. He heals very quickly, climbs out of the pit. Well, gets all the way back to Gotham. We're not even sure how far the pit is. Right? Like, there's no, like, it's really hard to know what the world map looks like because of the timing of when it gets back. Like. Like, it really seems.

50:40
Case
Feels like a fantasy setting, right?

50:41
Sam
And it feels like that regard. It's the issue that, like, season eight of Game of Thrones had, like, the people spent, like, seasons, like two or three seasons crossing from one end of the continent to the other. But by the 8th season, people are just, like, bumping around places. Like, you know, Danny and John are like, oh, no, to the wall. And then they're there right away from King's Landing or it's just that kind of thing. It's like, so, like, it's just we're moving fast, right? And, like, you can say, oh, well, she has dragons, but not everyone's riding those frickin dragons, okay? The rest of the army has to walk.

51:20
Sam
And so it's kind of like the same thing here where, like, they're not, like, it feels like Bane took him somewhere far away in a desert area and dropped him in a pit. But somehow I think it was postured that 48 hours may have passed, right? Like, it doesn't seem like a lot of time between, like, you're dropped in a pit and, like, I now own Gotham and, oh, my God, he's back. Oh, no. So, like, those things are, like, really bugged me when I left the film. Like, when I left theater. Like, that was, like, glaring to me. Like, it was just like, how did that happen? I didn't compare it to Game of Thrones back then. I was just like, how did that happen? And how did this happen?

52:11
Sam
And they said that mains blew up all the bridges and there were no ways in or out of Gotham, and yet that woman finds him on a bridge and I'm so confused. Did they rebuild the bridge? Is it a border? Like, what is going on? I don't like, it would make sense strategically for Bane to leave one bridge alive for his own goons, but then there should have been, like, people guarding it. I don't know. It's just like, one of those things where they're like, there's these small, just small little details that, like, that are not small at all, that are just not considered in any way, shape, or form.

52:52
Case
Yeah, I don't usually try to be like, man, I had some good points, but in this episode, I had some good points. Like, there's. There were several spots in this movie where it really would have benefited from a bigger time jump in the middle and allowed for, you know, I pitched that Bane should have showed up and, like, you know, taken Batman out. And then Batman's out of commission for a while, and that's why he comes back, like, and not have him out of commission at the start of the movie because that part is just redundant in. In the movie that we got and have a big time jump in there where we are dealing with Batman in whatever sort of prison. And I had, you know, said, like, hey, Wayne Manor would be really interesting. Instead, he could be inside his own cave.

53:35
Case
Like, that would be really cool. And I stand by that. Oftentimes, I'm like, oh, yeah, I kind of remember this viewpoint. I had this one. I really think that this movie fails by having that whole question of how does he even get out and come back? It's the same problem that last Jedi had where it's like, well, if people can just leave and come back, what's the threat of this weird predation scene that we've got going on there in the ship chase in that case and here with Bane, like, running rampant in Gotham? I just find it wild that they can't try to bottle it so that it effectively creates a die hard situation?

54:19
Case
Isn't it more interesting where it's like, well, Batman not only is on the ropes because he is broken and his resources are diminished and all these things that are working against Batman. Specifically. Specifically. And then also there's no backup coming. There's no cavalry that's coming. There's no way to get out, even. It's either you just accept death or you continue on and make sure and get a win. And I think that the movie we got, by virtue of making Gotham a place that was accessible and at least to Batman, loses out on what could have been really cool. Compare it to the Arkham games.

55:03
Case
You know, like, those are doing the same basic thing, especially both Arkham Asylum and Arkham City, where Batman's sort of the only person because he was already on the inside and can't get off and has to sort of explore this central area. I guess what I'm saying is that this movie should have been a Metroidvania. Yeah.

55:25
Sam
Yeah, I know. You honestly, like, all the points made in the episode we just listened to were all incredibly valid and actually, really, like, I think, solid pitches. Right. Like, in terms of, like, you know, don't have him be retired. Like, you know, because you're. It's redundant. Right. Like, that actually really rang true with me as I was listening to it. I was like, yeah, that is true. It's so weird to have him, like, just kind of already be retired and then kind of go back into retirement. I don't know how I feel about Batman dying, which is something that was suggested in the.

56:09
Case
We got real hardcore about that one. We were like, yeah, you should have it come to an end.

56:14
Sam
And I think, yeah, I think. I don't remember who said it was like, no, DC's never gonna let that happen. And, like, absolutely.

56:22
Case
It was Ben who said that.

56:23
Sam
Yeah, and absolutely, Ben. You are 100% correct. I just think that, like, yeah, I'm not sure I'm on board with that. I think, like, maybe retiring, you know, for real. But I think, point is, you don't let him retire for the first movie, right? Like, if you let him hang up the cowl or even, like, train someone else, that's fine. You know, I just think that it's such a. Such a strangely flooded and redundant just movie. It's just so. And, like, there are times where it feels like it's really, like, struggling to get going, you know, like, in. It doesn't.

57:14
Case
Well, I gotta say, like, the. The whole reason that, like, the retirement, like, why it felt like he needed to die at the end is because he starts the movie retired. And, like, that feels like the natural progression where a person who has given up is forced to give it his all until he ultimately dies. It's Logan in that scenario versus here, he's already retired, and him retiring at the end just feels like, oh, I took a break from my retirement to go back to being Batman, but I'm done now. What is this curse that Michael Caine is sort of expressing? Like, Bruce Wayne was already retired. For a portion of it, he was miserable because he's a miserable, terrible person. But, like, he was retired and for that stretch.

57:58
Case
And that's why I think that, honestly, the fact that they open with him retired kills all of the momentum of this movie because you don't get to deal with him well. You have the redundant arc of him being taken out of commission and having to work his way back twice. But also, it then defangs him surviving at the end, because then, like I said, just feels like a detour in this retired man's, like, you know, midlife crisis, as opposed to, like, the. The natural conclusion of a person who was going to fight until he died and finally choosing life at the end.

58:30
Sam
Right. And I think that would have overall been more compelling. I mean, like, you could even have him kind of, like, be struggling in the beginning, right? Like, you can say, okay, he's been at this for a long time. He's really freaking banged up. Right? Because you think about it, if you're fighting that long as a vigilante, even with your wonderful toys, your body is going to feel broken. I mean, like, I know I sometimes sleep wrong and I feel that my back hurts. So that's just part of aging. Imagine if I was going out and street fighting every night to catch insane lunatics. It'd be even worse. So I think it'd be okay to have them, like, be achy and maybe even considering retirement.

59:20
Sam
You know, like, a conversation about that, but then feeling that, like, he's just stuck, called into this kind of thing, which kind of gives you that nice, grizzled, older Batman that I think people really gravitate to, you know? And I think that would have been a nicer, you know, progression. Because if he retires, then he doesn't have to feel as many aches and pains anymore. And he can, like you said, choose to live his life to just be Bruce Wayne, to put down all of that burden that he's kind of been carrying for all of this time.

01:00:05
Sam
And that would have been at least a nicer conclusion to, you know, it would have felt more cathartic, I think by having him retired and then coming out of it and then retiring again, it just makes you feel like, well, what's going to stop you from having to put the mask back on in a couple of years? You know, like, that's. That's what I think, you know, just when you think you're out, they pull you back in kind of thing, you know, so it doesn't really give the same kind of. But if you already put the conflict of, I am already being like, I'm already getting broken down. I'm older. This is not necessarily fun, but it's something that I have to do. It's a responsibility.

01:00:56
Sam
It's really hard living these double lives and you give him all that conflict right at the beginning of the film and then by the end of the film, he's able to just put all of that away and just Bruce Wayne. That would have been nice and cathartic and a nice way to say goodbye to this series of films, which are all flawed in their own ways. And the most basic is just that Batman is not a good detective in any of these films, but especially in this one. He's like, honestly just not good at figuring things out and never has been through this whole trilogy.

01:01:37
Case
It's the himbo is Batman, frankly.

01:01:39
Sam
Yeah, that's true.

01:01:42
Case
He does a lot of pushups and they show off how many pushups he.

01:01:44
Sam
Does, but, you know, yeah, he's not the great detective at all, unfortunately.

01:01:52
Case
So thinking about the whole quest to be Batman and to potentially push yourself to death or choose life in this scenario, I do want to shout out Red from overly sarcastic production did a recent detailed diatribe about Batman. Is it a curse or a choice? And it's a really good discussion of, I think, themes that we're kind of discussing here. And we love Red and overly sarcastic productions. Red has been on this show talking about valyrian and the city of a thousand planets and may or may not possibly be in an upcoming episode of the show that is in the can but has not come out yet. And also Red and Blue have both been on men of steel talking about my adventures with Superman.

01:02:39
Case
Just wanted to shout them out because they're awesome and they've given us a huge shot in the arm on our YouTube channel. So I just sufficiently appreciative of them because they're awesome. But, yeah, so, man.

01:02:58
Addy Thomas
We talk a.

01:02:59
Case
Lot in this episode about the. Did you ever see the three part trailer that warners released in the. In the preparation of the Dark Knight rises coming out?

01:03:10
Sam
Yes.

01:03:12
Case
It's so goddamn cool. Like, it looks so compelling and such an interesting journey across all three movies. And then you look at the actual movie that we got here, and there's good shots, but, man, it just isn't doing it enough in terms of the character across the three movies. And that's such a bummer to me. Do you have thoughts about how you would have ended this? That isn't stuff that we already covered or, like, where are you coming from looking at the trilogy and how you would approach it here?

01:03:45
Sam
Yeah, it's hard, too, because if we're thinking the whole trilogy, I actually honestly am almost right on board with everyone except for him dying in terms of, like, he shouldn't have been retired. I also think that, like, yeah, I'm. I'm almost certain that, like, it should have just been bane. Like, I'm kind of okay with involving Catwoman or choosing between the ladies, choosing between them. But I do like Catwoman a little bit better, only because the idea of giving him, like, a semi ally, especially since the only thing is, then we lose that wonderful tie. Okay, hold on. Let me rethink, because I wasn't expecting over the arc of the trilogy. Right. So now I have to, like, really think about this, because if we're losing. You know what? I kind of want him to come home, so maybe Talia has to be there.

01:04:51
Sam
Okay. Catwoman and kind of have this be, like, kind of a last ditch effort to kind of call Bruce home to his assassin roots. Keep Bane. Yeah.

01:05:10
Case
Let me throw out this as a possibility. So I think that the decision to have Bane be a former member of the League of Shadows as opposed to a current member of the League of Shadows, was an attempt to make him stand out more as his own character.

01:05:25
Sam
Yeah.

01:05:25
Case
And I would argue that if he was a current member, like, he is their top enforcer coming, then the League of Shadows is really the villain in the situation, and then Talia being revealed to be controlling them and or a counter agent to them or something to that effect all works really well. But then it's still just really kind of one villain. And so Catwoman as the separate agent of chaos wouldn't be, you know, one of three villains. It would be. She's sort of this one character that's off on the side.

01:05:55
Sam
Yeah, no, I agree with that because that's what I'm thinking. Because, you know, if we're doing this to tie the trilogy, right, he starts by training, right, with the League of Shadows. So, like, it would be nice to really end it with that, but. But to make them the main kind of villain of, like, a pay up kind of moment. Right? Like, because they didn't get everything from their investment in Bruce. And I think that would be more interesting. I think one of the things that you've definitely brought up is bringing into the picture sooner and kind of, I think that he should be brought in sooner, and then Talia should be a later on reveal control kind of thing. So it's kind of like, oh, shit, this is actually the League of Shadows.

01:06:54
Sam
Like, you can know that Bane's working for someone else, but I think, like, that should be, like, the twist somewhere in the middle of the movie that, like, it's like, oh, it's actually for the league. Oh, shit. You know, that's why they're here. And I think that would be way more interesting. And then that way, it's kind of like Bruce has to battle his past in order to get his, like, future and be free of all the responsibilities of, you know, who he has become, what he has become, the symbol that he is and all that stuff, because that just makes it more interesting. And you can have a lot of the same beats. You can have a lot of the same or some of the same set pieces, but just rearranged.

01:07:49
Case
Yeah, I just had a crazy idea. All right, so what if, in having it be the league of shadows, who is sending Bane into the situation and having Talia be the person running it all, what if the revelation is that, like, Ras al Ghul or Ra's al Ghul as he was in Batman begins, that Rasa Ghul allowed himself to die in Batman begins? The whole, I don't even have to kill you, or I don't have to kill you. I just don't have to save you scene.

01:08:23
Case
If that actually was an intentional situation, in order for Batman to think that he was free of the league for the time and then to have Batman run wild in Gotham and we get this whole escalation, we get this whole situation where, like, new threats pop up and everything to sort of have a thing where Batman creates chaos by virtue of his existence. And that was the weapon that's so good that the league of Shadows was actually employing on the city. Having Batman realize that he himself was always a sleeper agent for the league, even though he thinks he's trying to do the right thing.

01:09:00
Sam
I love this.

01:09:01
Case
And that Bane coming in here and breaking Batman was sort of like, all right, Batman, you've caused all these threats to rise up and be, you know, so dangerous in the city, and you're keeping in check what happens when I break you? And now they are just allowed to go free, you know, and it doesn't have to be, like, super villains. Like, it doesn't have to be like, oops, all Batman villains. It could just be like, you know, all the crazies and whatnot. But, like, you could imply a lot of things about this. All the same way that they say, like, well, we tried economics or we tried plague rats. They think outside the box and how they try to take down a city.

01:09:34
Case
And maybe in this scenario, it's put the hero in there so that the villains rise and then pull the hero away so that the villains destroy the city.

01:09:44
Sam
Right. Yeah.

01:09:46
Case
And have that be revealed to be the big plan. And that ras al Ghul being okay with dying was because he thinks in a bigger, you know, framework than just his own life. And that Batman having to rise up to defeat him, in part, has to be able to say, like, well, but that's fucked up. And I'm not going to take the lesson of my mentor and die in the process. I'm going to live, and I'm going to live in spite of him. So that you kind of create a through line for why his survival at the end makes narrative sense for the character.

01:10:25
Sam
I love all of this. Yes.

01:10:26
Case
This is.

01:10:27
Sam
This is how we fix the movie. Yeah, no, that's good, because it's. It's so, Sleep pretty optimistic for Batman. That's a really optimistic ending. I love it. I know. I actually really, really like that because it kind of. I think it's actually a really nice bookend, first of all, for the trilogy. Right. Like, as a, like a three set. Right. And also, it's kind of like, it gives Batman to do what Batman does best, which is feel guilt in the middle of all of this, because he's very good at being like, oh, no, it's me. Especially the moodier Batman. Especially the Nolan Batman. He's very good at being moody. He's a very moody himbo. And, yeah, I think that would have absolutely worked with, like, this entire series and the way that this Batman interacts with this world.

01:11:32
Sam
And I think just, like, in general, it would have been more cohesive and to this story because, as is what we got was a structural mess and kind of, like, bits and pieces of, like, ideas. Like, good ideas, but, like, not really anything that was fully, like, drawn out. Right. Like the. You know, like, some of the financial stuff. Like, that's of that time, for sure. But it's kind of. Because it's just kind of a subplot in the background. Right. Of everything else that's happening. It kind of. There's not really a real focal point in the film. Yeah. It keeps getting moved around, and I think that would actually, like, give you the real focal point. And it's just like, you were the tool all along, and now.

01:12:41
Sam
Now that you, like, the city has come to depend on you so much, when we take you away, what happens to the city? Right. And then, you know. Yeah. Then he has to struggle to come back and set things right and then be like, okay, I can no longer do this because, one, I want to live, you know, a normal life, but two, me just being here the way that I am is, you know, causing the chaos that, you know, so I need to just stay at my mansion and, you know, just live a normal. Go to Nair's life, do some charity work, maybe. Only he'd set up schools and.

01:13:36
Case
Yeah.

01:13:37
Case
Ahead of time, as opposed to.

01:13:38
Sam
Right. Right.

01:13:40
Case
In his death. On that note, what did you think of Joseph Gordon Levitt as Robin, effectively, but as John Blake, Officer Charles?

01:13:48
Sam
I mean, listen, I didn't hate it. I just was just like, okay. It was not. It wasn't like, something. Like, I was like, yo, that's amazing, or, oh, that's so much fun. And it was, like, really? Like, I don't. I don't know what kind of chuckle they thought they were gonna get out of us by, like, having his name be Robin. Like, as if. Like, I feel like it's one of those things where, like, he should have looked at the camera and winked, like, robin. Right, exactly. Like, I don't understand. Like, it just. I was like, I. So, again, I think by that time, I was so, like, underwhelmed by the film that it was kind of like, oh, of course. I think, you know, like, I just feel like I didn't hate it, I didn't love it.

01:14:49
Sam
I just kind of felt indifferent to it, because by that point, I was just kind of like, this movie's a mess. So cool. But, yes, the whole, like, naming him Robin thing was, like, pretty lame. I think I was just like, you know, giving him a name that doesn't exist. There's so many freaking robins, too. Like, there's so many robins.

01:15:10
Case
Yep.

01:15:11
Sam
Like, picked any of the names.

01:15:14
Case
Yeah, I mean, like, Tim Drake is the really obvious one in terms of being, like, very similar, but, like, you could also had it be Terry McGinnis. Like, if you just want to say, oh, he becomes Batman next. You know? Absolutely beyond this movie, he's. He's Batman.

01:15:29
Sam
Absolutely. There's just. I feel like it's weird to just kind of, like, have all these different, like, have him be like, john, and then, like, basically say, oh, no, but my real name's Robin. Like, you're not gonna go out on the street as Robin, right?

01:15:46
Case
Like, what if, like, it was weird.

01:15:48
Sam
Robin's an alias. Like, I became a hero superhero, so I used my first real name. What? Like, it's. It was just kind of one of those things where I was just like, yeah, but whatever. I think they wanted us to be like, yo. And I kind of wonder if it was like a. Like, something they added on. Like. Like, the character's name was done all along, and they were like, what if. Hear me out. What if he's Robin?

01:16:22
Case
That feels like a late in the drafting stage kind of inclusion. Yeah.

01:16:26
Sam
Like, how do we make him, like, how do we give people a correlation? Oh, why don't we have him say his real name is Robin? Wow, you're a genius. No, no, it's just.

01:16:38
Case
Well, it feels like they didn't want to, like, play their hand too soon. They didn't want us all to realize it. But, like, we all. We all knew, right? Like, yeah, I mean, like, I knew because I knew people who worked on the movie, and they told me, but, like, we. We knew, like, we knew just from the casting. Like, who is he going to play? Obviously Robin. He is the most obvious, like, casting choice of, what was this 2012 to be Robin? Like, yeah, you know, it's just, I.

01:17:04
Sam
Yeah, I think that's probably. You're right. It's probably what happened was, like, well, if we name him one of the names, and people are going to know right away that he's going to. But then why wasn't the. I feel like the alias should have at least been one of the other Robin's names, right? Like, I feel like by naming him, by him saying, my real name is Robin, it just felt so weird. It just felt too on the nose, too winky Wink, and, like, that's not what these movies are, you know? Like, if you're going to be in a movie with Arnold Schwarzenegger making puns, the baby being like, my real name is Robin. Wink, wink. Maybe that's not so bad. But here, it's. It just. It doesn't fit the vibe.

01:17:52
Case
I mean, if he was, for example, Richard, and, you know, we didn't actually, like, catch what his, like, officer name was. Or like, they weren't. Like, they didn't spend a lot of time on it. And then to be like, oh, like, actually, my parents used to call me Dick. Oh, Dick Grayson. That has a nice ring to it or something like that.

01:18:08
Sam
Right? Like, honestly, if everyone called him rich.

01:18:12
Case
Yeah.

01:18:13
Sam
You know, like. And. Because then you honestly wouldn't, like, think of it, right? Like, oh, yeah, rich, can you help over here? And, like, you know, yeah.

01:18:20
Case
I mean, nerds would. Like, nerd. Like, nerds would. That doesn't. But that's specific to us. Like, not. Not to the general public. Like, a lot of people wouldn't catch that, honestly, you could say Dick Grayson, and a lot of people wouldn't catch it because, let's be honest, there are more people who are like, yeah, I'm down for checking out Batman stuff than, like, know about Batman stuff.

01:18:40
Sam
Yeah, for sure. And, like, here's the thing. I'm falling rich for, like, most of the movie. And then maybe somewhere in, like, middle ish, you let his, like, officer badge be seen, and it's like, r. Grayson. And then I was like, wait a minute. It's confirmed. He isn't. And then, like, for the people who don't necessarily know, he can actually say, yeah, they call, you know, yeah, my parents used to call me Dick, and then they were like, oh, my God, he's Dickerson. Like, there's, like, levels of who gets in on the joke, right? Because there'll be some people that get it, like, right from the get go. And then there are some people who will be like, oh, Grayson. And then there'll be some people who won't get it till the very end, till it's spelled out for them.

01:19:22
Sam
That would have been preferable to what we got with him.

01:19:27
Case
Yeah.

01:19:27
Case
Before he was an orphan, he was a circus performer.

01:19:30
Sam
Yeah, yeah.

01:19:34
Case
It's just like, again, I think he's fine in this movie. You know, aside from just being such a great detective with, God, he's such Tim Drake. He's such Tim Drake energy.

01:19:48
Sam
True.

01:19:49
Case
But, you know, casting Joseph Gordon Levitt at the time was like, yeah, obviously this is the person you would cast for a robin. And, like, it's about the Robin that you were gonna get in a Christopher Nolan Batman movie. I can't imagine them doing, like, a real Robin character.

01:20:06
Sam
Yeah.

01:20:07
Case
I don't know why you couldn't ever. But, like, at that, you know, this was not the franchise that was going to do that.

01:20:14
Sam
No.

01:20:16
Case
And so his role is fine. The idea of him, you know, having the torch passed to him is fine. I would have liked to see, like some sort of cool new, like, action figure, you know, toyetic armor for him to wear that. You know, it could have been a very nightwingish armor and that would have been cool.

01:20:30
Sam
That would have been very cool. I would have liked that too.

01:20:34
Case
But, you know, whatever. But he, he's fine in the movie overall.

01:20:43
Sam
Yeah, I think. I think so. It's, it's fine. Like, I think that, like, look, if you're listening to us go on and on about the flaws of this film, know that if you like it, more power to you because you've just got tons more imagination than we do because you make the plot holes work for you and bless you for that. But I just think that, like, this movie becomes, I think, like, arguably, this is a bad film with good performances and for writing. And it's a shame because the rest of the trilogy is so good. It's a good looking film, you know? Yeah. And I think that, like, compared to the other two movies, especially that second movie, it's just such a disappointment, you know?

01:21:45
Case
Yeah. Also, I should note that I recognize that neither of them, but especially the dark knight, does not hold up as well as it should.

01:21:57
Sam
Yeah.

01:21:57
Case
But they hold up better than this one does. This one didn't hold up very well from the moment it came out. And, like, it. It hit its plateau pretty quick, because there are plenty of good things about it. But, like, rewatching it is a perfectly fine experience minus the fact that it's disappointing, but it was very disappointing. And it, you know, even with the, the, you know, a peg taken out of both Batman begins and especially Dark Knight, there's still a higher echelon than this one. And it's just a bummer that the trilogy ended on a less amazing note. But it is very difficult to land trilogies, even though people think that Hollywood loves trilogies. Hollywood isn't necessarily actually very good at trilogies. And even the best of them oftentimes the third.

01:22:50
Sam
And a lot of the time, like, a lot of the time, the third is not the strongest generally. The second one is the strongest, generally.

01:23:01
Case
Yeah, oftentimes. And honestly, the movie franchise that we'll be talking about on the next bonus episode is actually very much doing that whole situation, because next time we're going to be talking about Captain Civil War and the Winter Soldier. I keep as, like, one of my top three MCU movies of all time. And the Captain America trilogy. I love the whole trilogy, but, like, yeah, Civil War is, like, my least favorite of the three. Not that I really considered it a real trilogy, but it kind of is. And, yeah, but we've got a couple of cool bonus episodes coming up, actually, after that, we've got legacy, which is a really fun one, and then the one that I've been really excited for and also not the best of the trilogy, although I would say the first is the best.

01:23:54
Sam
Okay. I really love that film. So I will be rewatching it in order to discuss it after we listen to it.

01:24:00
Case
It's a really fun episode. It's just me and Addie, and I start spitballing all kinds of ideas. But, you know, I can spoil this for everyone right now because this is an episode that came out in 2017. My big pitch is like, well, why in the time travel movie, don't be encountered the foot in the past? And we go into a lot more detail beyond that. But, like, that's like, one of those spots where you're like, isn't that odd? Like, why? And the second I say that, I'm sure you had, like, a glass breaking sound in your brain and you're like, oh, yeah, it is really messed up that they don't counter the foot in the past. Like, that should be the one through line of the entire.

01:24:36
Sam
And yet people who wrote it were like, nah, we don't need them now.

01:24:42
Case
We're going to use the Shredders music for a different character but not actually reference the foot, even though they'd be like, zero effort to insert all you need. You could even have foot soldiers.

01:24:55
Sam
It's foot. Well, yeah, we will get to that anyway.

01:25:01
Case
Yeah.

01:25:01
Case
So again, civil War is coming up next, then Tron Legacy and then Turtles three. It was a good first year for another pass. Like, I'm very happy with just the massive episodes that we've looked at so far.

01:25:16
Sam
Excited.

01:25:21
Case
And it's also fun that this is the episode that's dropping right after we did the episode of, like, the full episode of another pass on the oath, the Batman short film that such a good film a producer on.

01:25:30
Sam
It's a great Batman film.

01:25:32
Case
I was playing D and D over the weekend. Like, I was guesting in someone else's game. And the. The people who I was hanging out with, like, they were showing me clips of, like, stuff that they've worked on because they're part of the Baltimore rock Opera Society. And I was like, oh, cool. Well, can I show you the oath? Like, it's, you know, it's like, you know, 15 minutes, but it's a really cool Batman movie that I worked on. And then it turned out that Wes Johnson, the voice of Batman in that was. Was friends with one of the people who I was, like, playing the game with, which is just, like, awesome. And Wes Johnson, for the record, is a extremely prolific voice actor, and he's the voice of the capitals.

01:26:08
Case
He's also both the voice of a character, the voice of Batman in the oath, and as well as playing a Klingon in the Star Trek fan film I'm working on currently. Super cool Guy and Super Cool connections to be had. Yeah. So that, I think, covers all of that. We've got another regular episode of another pass after this, which I'm excited to have drop, but you guys can find out about that when it actually drops. Otherwise. Yeah. We're now available on YouTube, which is a new thing and has gone very well. Adding the full episodes of the podcast to the YouTube channel has actually allowed us to hit those magic numbers where YouTube actually cares about us. And so we're kind of exploring what that is. But that's really cool and awesome.

01:27:04
Case
You could check out it on YouTube in addition to all the other places where you can get podcasts.

01:27:09
Sam
I think that comes amazing stuff.

01:27:11
Addy Thomas
I wanted to go.

01:27:12
Sam
We did that, and, you know, well, probably slightly more time than it took Batman to get out of that cave and back to Gotham. He got back real quick.

01:27:21
Case
Slightly more because it was like, no real time. Break my back again, daddy. Come on, bean daddy. Anyway, so, yeah, we'll be back in two weeks with a regular episode of the show. But until next time, pass it on. If you enjoyed the show, pass it on.

01:27:45
Ben Milton
All right, Jose, let's go through our new comic day stack.

01:27:47
Case
We have a lot to review.

01:27:49
Ben Milton
I know.

01:27:50
Addy Thomas
Maybe we've gone too far.

01:27:51
Ben Milton
Let's see. Marvel, of course.

01:27:53
Case
Pc.

01:27:54
Ben Milton
I got image. Dark horse. Black mask. Boom. Idw. Aftershock vault, of course. Mad cave.

01:28:03
Addy Thomas
Oni.

01:28:03
Ben Milton
Valiant scout. Magma behemoth. Wow, that's a lot. Well, all we need now is a name for our show. We need a name for a show about reviewing comic books every week. Something clever, but not too clever, like a pun. It's kind of cheesy. Yeah.

01:28:21
Case
Something that seems funny at first, but.

01:28:23
Ben Milton
We might regret later on as an impulsive decision, a few dozen episodes in. Yeah, we'll think of something. Join Keith and Hosway for we have issues, a weekly show reviewing almost every new comic released each week, available on geek elite media and wherever you listen to your podcasts.

01:28:39
Case
My brain's in such a weird spot right now because. So I've listened to the episode a couple of times in the last few days, and then right before, I saw a YouTube comment on a man of Steel video asking for me to explain a thing, and I couldn't remember what the hell they were talking about, so I just had to listen to the end of a Man of Steel episode to figure out what thing they were referencing. Because, like, they didn't say when. They said it was towards the end, but they didn't say when towards the end, right? And so now my brain's, like, all. It was the man of Steel episode. So, like, my brain's, like, all cut, tied up in man of steel right now and not the Dark Knight rises.

01:29:17
Sam
I mean, equally complicated film from the perspective of people who like a character and may not feel a kiss represented correctly inside me.

01:29:32
Case
There are two wolves, man of Steel and the Dark Knight rises.

01:29:37
Sam
I think if I were, this was a court of law, and I would say that one was worse than the other. I would say that Dark Knight rises is the worst of the two. But just because of the egregious time jumps, like, I'm, like, going from, like, just getting back into Gotham after possibly every inroad is destroyed except for the one bridge, supposedly that you sneak back in on, which I, like, it's just.

01:30:14
Case
We should save this for the actual.

01:30:15
Sam
Yeah, I'm sorry. You're right.

01:30:19
Case
The comparison is one thing, but, like, the. We don't need to. We don't need to adjudicate the entire movie first and then come back to it.

01:30:28
Sam
Fair enough. Fair enough. Let's begin.

01:30:31
Case
Yeah.

01:30:34
Case
Cpov certainpov.com.

AI meeting summary:

●      The meeting, led by **Casey Aiken** and co-hosts, analyzed "The Dark Knight Rises." **Sam Alicea** shared theater experiences, noting disappointment with highlights. Critiques focused on villains, storytelling, and character development, suggesting improvements like refining Bane and integrating the Joker better. Feedback emphasized logic inconsistencies, character decisions, and Gotham's response to crises.

●      Suggestions included enhancing key moments like Batman's sacrifice without reshoots, aiming to address structural flaws and emotional resonance in the film. Discussions delved into Batman's retirement, Robin's portrayal, and missed opportunities for stronger conclusions in the trilogy. They contemplated alternate storylines and character arcs for a more satisfying outcome.

●      The dialogue critiqued "The Dark Knight Rises," acknowledging positives while pointing out flaws. Creative suggestions were proposed for enhancement, emphasizing thematic coherence and impactful character arcs. The speakers discussed broader topics like comic book movies, trilogies, upcoming podcast episodes on films such as "Captain America: Civil War," and new comic book releases.

Notes:

●      🔍 **Discussion on Episode Quality**

●      **Let the episode speak for itself**

●      **Quality and content evaluation**

●      **Finding footing**

●      **Free-flowing conversation**

●      🎭 **Content Feedback**

●      **Logic gaps identified**

●      **Issues with the script**

●      **Missing thematic continuity**

●      📌 **Ideas for Improvement**

●      **Escalate stakes**

●      **Enhance central character role**

●      **Address financial aspects**

●      🎙️ **Podcast Promotion**

●      **Encouragement to subscribe, rate, and review**

●      **Announcement of upcoming episodes**

●      **Mention of related podcast topics**

●      📚 **Comic Book Review**

●      **Discussion on new comic releases**

●      **Planning for detailed reviews**

●      **Comic book stack overview**

Action items:

●      **Jeff Moonan and Matt (Stormageddon)**

●      Identify potential next steps for future discussions based on the feedback provided in the meeting transcript (47:01)

●      **Case Aiken**

●      Explore further opportunities for collaboration with Wes Johnson, the voice actor of Batman in the oath, and leverage his connections in the industry for potential projects or partnerships (01:25:51)

●      **Keith and Hosway**

●      Come up with a name for the show about reviewing comic books every week that is clever but not too clever, like a pun. The name should be something that seems funny at first but may be regretted later on as an impulsive decision after several episodes. This task is for branding purposes and should be finalized before the next episode (01:28:09)

●      Discuss the comparison between 'Man of Steel' and 'The Dark Knight Rises' in more detail during the next episode. Explore the aspects that make one movie worse than the other, focusing on elements like time jumps and character representation. This discussion will add depth to the content and engage the audience (01:29:52)

Outline:

●      Chapter 1: Analysis of "The Dark Knight Rises" Episode (00:16 - 03:36)

●      Discussion on the episode's content and quality assessment.

●      Reference to the timing of recording and previous episode on "Return of the Jedi."

●      Chapter 2: Critique of Trilogies' Endings (04:31 - 06:16)

●      Examination of the pattern of concluding trilogies in films.

●      Comparison of the final chapters to the middle ones.

●      Chapter 3: Review of Story Structure and Writing Issues (48:40 - 55:48)

●      Evaluation of structural problems and writing flaws in "The Dark Knight Rises."

●      Analysis of the script's timeline and world-building challenges.

●      Chapter 4: Cohesiveness and Narrative Improvement Ideas (1:02:12 - 1:10:37)

●      Proposal to enhance narrative coherence by linking Batman's training with the League of Shadows.

●      Suggestions for creating a stronger through-line for the character's arc.

●      Chapter 5: Focus on Script Clarity and Storyline Consistency (1:10:52 - 1:15:57)

●      Emphasizing the importance of a cohesive storyline and clear focal points.

●      Discussion on refining ideas to fully develop the plot and character arcs.

●      Chapter 6: Future Considerations and Recommendations (1:26:24 - 1:30:34)

●      Mention of rewatching the film for further analysis and discussion.

●      Teasing upcoming episodes and encouraging audience engagement with the content.