Another Pass at Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull

Moving from ancient ruins to Cold War era espionage made for a less well received Indiana Jones film. Can Case and Sam, along with guest Doug Lief, whip it into shape?

Find Doug at Nostalgium Arcanum: https://nostalgiumarcanum.fireside.fm/

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Transcription

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00:00
Case
Before we actually, like, start, I just want to say movie is more bland than bad. It's like a c.

00:08
Sam
I found this movie triggering, but as a kid, I was really into the Incas, so I have a lot. I actually like 30 minutes. For 30 minutes after I watched this movie, I walked around, like, just paced my apartment because I was so. It's like, literally such a nerd thing. Like, I'm like, oh, my God. Alright, so we'll. We'll talk about it in the episode, but.

00:36
Case
Welcome to certain POV's another pass podcast with case and Sam, where we take another look at movies that we find fascinating but flawed. Let's see how we could have fixed them. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the another pass podcast. I'm case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, Sam Alisea.

00:54
Sam
Hi.

00:56
Case
And today we are talking about a movie that was kind of taken or leave it for a lot of people. And once we saw it was kind of like, heh, could have. Could have left it, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think anyone has necessarily a lot of nostalgia for Indiana Jones and the kingdom of the Crystal skull.

01:20
Sam
Mm.

01:21
Case
However, we are all fans of the franchise, and to look down this nostalgic franchise, we are joined by the host of the Nostalgia Arcanum podcast, Doug Leaf.

01:32
Doug Lief
Hello.

01:33
Case
Hey, Doug. Thank you for coming on, Doug.

01:35
Sam
Welcome, Doug.

01:36
Doug Lief
Oh, my pleasure. Well, I'll say my pleasure to be on your show. Not my pleasure to revisit this movie.

01:42
Sam
Although I revisit it, Doug.

01:44
Doug Lief
Yeah, I did. I threw myself on this one. I mean, I am a big Indiana Jones fan, and your audience can't see it, but I am wearing my shirt, which is the. The rubbing of the night shield from last Crusade. Yeah, definitely a place where they should have left the franchise. Let Indy ride into the sunset, literally, and been done with it. But we'll get into all that, I'm sure.

02:07
Case
Yeah, for sure. I will say that this is the movie, regardless of my overall feelings, because I kind of nothing the movie in the long run, there's good and bad and kind of like, I saw it. And I'm not mad that I relaunched it, but I saw it and, like, and that's it for me. But the franchise up until that point had been, like, a thing I really loved, like, last Crusade, amazing movie. I love that deeply. Raiders of the Lost Ark. There are whole essays about, like, how action movies are made because of that movie. And Sebilla Doom as a actually effective prequel is also, like, kind of in this, like, pantheon of, like, interesting movies that have come out, and this movie kind of killed any fervor I had for that franchise.

02:45
Case
Like, I have not seen the new one, and I have no energy to see the new one. Even after watching this, I'm like, well, I should go rewatch the early ones. It's not that I'm, like, mad about it or that I have no desire to. It's just that I have no energy to. There's nothing driving me to it. I'm curious, for everyone here, what is your nostalgia for the franchise? Like, Doug, you're bringing a t shirt with it. So let's start with you. What is your history with the franchise, and what did this movie do to it? Where has it been since I was.

03:14
Doug Lief
Too young to see the first two in theaters, but going to see last Crusade in 89, I remember going, like, I could vividly remember, like, theater we saw it in. I went with my dad, and it was so exciting because it had been a while, and it was like, oh, my gosh, there's a new Indiana Jones movie. This was just an incredibly exciting thing to have happened. And, of course, I think it's the best movie in the franchise, and it was just this delightful memory. I have another strong childhood memory of, I think I must have been in second grade and just humming the Raiders march and singing it from somewhere on campus at my elementary school, on my walk all the way to my house, just singing it because I was just in love with this character, the world of Indiana Jones.

04:04
Doug Lief
I'm jewish, so growing up with a hero that punches Nazis in the face ain't so bad. So, yeah, I love all this. As far as what Crystal Skull did to the franchise, it's a little bit of that, like, oh, look what they did to my boy. But I had, as we talked off air, I have been through this with Star wars, right? I had to watch my beloved Star wars get destroyed by the prequels, and it doesn't destroy a franchise, right? Those original movies still exist. I'm not one of those people who feels like, well, now it's tainted, and I can't touch it again. And I did go see Dial of Destiny, and it's okay. It's not as good as the original trilogy, but it's damn sight better than this, and at least it feels like a competently made movie.

04:44
Doug Lief
This is an incoherent mess. Those are my opening thoughts on Indy and his franchise.

04:51
Case
Sam, how about you?

04:52
Sam
Oh, my gosh. I mean, well, first of all, the whole franchise. The three movies were one of the movies that got played on tv all of the time, right? So even if you didn't get to see it in theaters, you definitely caught it on the weekends, especially if you didn't have cable. This is like one of these movies was playing on something. And Indiana Jones actually sparked a really big love of history and archaeology. For me, as problematic as Indiana Jones is, because he is not a good archaeologist and he is a grave robber.

05:27
Case
He's also a mass murderer. Yes, this movie is the fewest body count, but every other movie is over five, which for most people is way too much.

05:37
Sam
Yeah, but, but as a child, you don't quite realize that, right? You just think he's really cool and he's running from rocks and he's. He's doing all these things and he's solving things, and it's like so much fun in the way that, like, old radio serials are, right when you listen to them, where you're like, oh, no, this is a little racist, but it's still fun, right? So I really loved Indiana Jones, and it was iconic. The music is amazing. I mean, well, what do you want, right? John Williams. But I think that, like, this film made me realize that, like, there were a lot of things as a child I was able to overlook. But also, like, this movie's just not as fun. This movie's not as fun as some of the previous movies.

06:22
Sam
The fight scenes are messy and the set pieces just don't work. And so that makes this movie kind of like, okay, like, if it's on in the background, that's fine. Was it triggering for me as a person whose ancestors were trampled by conquistadors? Yes. Yes. Because historically, there's just really sloppy stuff in here. And especially for someone who loves history. Thanks, Indiana Jones. This movie is awful to me. I actually didn't see it until you guys brought it up for this podcast because the minute I heard there were ancient aliens involved, I was like, nope, dog whistle. To me, that is fucking racist. I do not care not watching that. And yeah, did not disappoint in that. Definitely still a horrible decision to go with. And again, Steven Spielberg loves his aliens.

07:15
Doug Lief
But this was, well, fun fact about that. Actually, George Lucas was the one pushing for the aliens. Steven Spielberg did not want that in the movie. And in fact, I believe he's the one who's responsible for John Hurt mentioning at the end, offhandedly, like, technically they're interdimensional beings. They're not space aliens. I mean, Spielberg, right, obviously has a lot of cred when it comes to aliens, and so does George Lucas, as far as filmmaking goes. You're right. Like, it doesn't fit with the world of Indiana Jones. That was my big issue is not so much the, like, cultural issues of it, because for me, and I guess I'm not from this culture, I can't speak to it. But it felt so far removed from reality that it kind of felt like that didn't seem to be the issue more than it was.

07:57
Doug Lief
Just like Indiana Jones. His thing is he fits in the world of, like, religious mysticism.

08:02
Sam
Yeah.

08:03
Doug Lief
Sci-Fi just doesn't quite mesh. Even though it does track with, like, this series roots in 1930s and forties serials. It just doesn't fit. It feels weird to have Indiana Jones chasing saucer men, which was, you know, that was another original pitch, was Indiana Jones and the saucer men from Lucas. So this was, like, in the movie from the beginning.

08:25
Case
That's the big thing for me, which is that the problem is that this movie is too much like aliens.

08:30
Doug Lief
Yeah, meme aliens.

08:32
Sam
Exactly. It's like the History Channel guy with the crazy hair wrote this movie to a certain degree.

08:38
Case
And I think that's the problem with this movie, because I can deal with the idea of. All right, original Indiana Jones is a love letter to Doc Savage style, lost city in the jungle, kind of pulp fiction from the thirties, and shifting it by necessity because you want to do it with, you know, Harrison Ford, and he is 20 years older, so. All right, well, 20 years in the future, we're talking about the fifties doing, like, a. Here's a b movie Sci-Fi thing. I could deal with that part, but that is not what they're actually doing. Like, they're doing the ancient aliens thing, which, as you said, is kind of an uncomfortable dog whistle element and feels like the compromise, if they want to do a Roswell thing, versus the compromise of doing an Indiana Jones. Here's like, a, you know, ancient society thing.

09:26
Case
It actually comes off as more racist than if they had just leaned into it, like if they had just been fully b movie Sci-Fi okay, so I.

09:35
Sam
Am by no means, like, an expert. I'm not an expert on the Incas or the Mayans, but I, again, really love history and archaeology and ancient Mesoamerica. I really do have a very big problem with the fact that they incorporated the mayan language. Why? Because the Mayans and Incas never interacted. And then we go straight to Peru. Okay. We are inca territory. There is no reason for the mayan language to appear in this film other than to be tied into this idea that ancient aliens. And they're tying these, like, there's no reason. Also, just so that people know. I know that there's a lot of, like, stuff out there. Like, are the Nazca lines made by aliens? No. No.

10:21
Sam
The Incas were amazing agriculture farmers, and they actually created the lines by changing soil and creating actual patterns that were meant to be seen by their gods. And those images are actually images of their gods. The condors, snakes, the spiders. That's all part of their religious iconography. Okay, so it's not aliens. It is an amazing ancient civilization. And the aliens at the end, by the way, who are in the Amazon, should not absolutely be speaking in mayan. If they were there, right? These dimensional beings, and they were, like, connected to the ancient people that lived in that city, they wouldn't be speaking mayan language. They would be speaking one of the 84 languages available that are spoken in Peru now to this day. Not dead languages at all. There are 84 languages. Kuru has three national quechua a and Spanish.

11:26
Sam
Okay, like, honestly, y'all, like, I was so mad about this one thing about language, just to tie this into the ancient aliens idea. The worst part is they mentioned Quechua. See, guys, I'm getting very hated.

11:41
Case
Yeah, we're in the weeds.

11:42
Sam
They mentioned.

11:42
Case
We are 15 minutes into this episode.

11:44
Doug Lief
Recall this archaeology.

11:45
Sam
He speaks Quechua like Indiana. Jonas goes in and speaks Quechua to someone in Cusco when he's there, and I'm like, why? You missed this opportunity? And then at the end, you have speaking. They did not have to incorporate that. And these two civilizations never interacted. There's actually archaeological proof that they never interacted. There was never even trade between them. So there is no reason. Absolutely none, except for the continuing dog whistle of ancient aliens to include Mayans. And I frickin hated it so much.

12:22
Doug Lief
I mean, yeah, I totally agree with what you're saying as being a flaw in the movie, but I think there's so much in the conceptualization of the movie, even before we get to, like, the accuracy of anything that's in it from an archaeological perspective, that, like, we're already way into trouble. Like, and one of them. And obviously, as we all agree, clearly, it's just the use of aliens. And I realized this recently. We did a podcast on the uncharted series of video games, which obviously owes a debt to this, but those two franchises diverge in one key way, which is the bit in Uncharted, is the thing that they're chasing. It doesn't quite turn out to be the thing you expect it to be when they find the MacGuffin.

13:02
Doug Lief
Whereas indiana Jones, the thing at the end of an Indiana Jones movie is always, oh, shit, it's real, right? Oh, wow. We found the Ark of the Covenant, and it really is this box of God power that melts people's faces. The holy grail really does give you eternal life. And so it's almost like a ditch that they had to run into here, where it's like, it would have been so cool if it was like, okay, we'll start with some of this Roswell, ancient alien shit. And then we take a left turn into something more interesting as opposed to, like, nope, it's the skull of an alien. It's exactly what you thought it was. Here we go. Right?

13:36
Case
Almost like, it would better if the whole movie, they were dead doubting the Roswell thing. And then they get to it being like, oh, fuck, it's actually a real alien. So that it was, like, a little bit more in keeping with, like, the previous ones, but with the updated genre, like, as it is. We're very explicit very early on. Yep, no, that's an alien. And then, like, everything playing out from there is just like, well, where does it go? Oh, yeah. To the kingdom with that crystal skull. Okay, cool. Like, that's it. There's no turn. It's a very straight line in the whole movie.

14:09
Sam
I think that a very basic issue with this film. And I will put aside my very one little geeky thing because it was just me nitpicking, y'all. Is that, like, the truth is, it's so muddled, right? So the Russians, the KGB, are looking for a weapon, supposedly, and it's supposed to give them an upper hand. And, like, we kind of set the scene right. We're a cold war kind of thing. Like, we never understand how this thing is going to be the weapon that's actually going to help them. We never really have, like, a clear understanding of what the crystal skull will do. There are very distinct rules in the other Indiana Jones films, right? Like what the artifacts can do for the person looking for the artifact.

15:03
Sam
And I feel like in this one, I never really get a sense what the reason is. Right? Like, what. What this actually, what this can do. You know, what the architect of covenant can do. You know what the chalice can do. This is so muffled through the whole movie. And at the end, it's like it was knowledge all along, but it's knowledge that no one could actually retain. So didn't do anything for anyone. Like, I didn't. And I think overall, that's one of the big problems, that there's no real defining meaning for the crystal skull itself, other than, like, it might be an alien. That's it.

15:44
Doug Lief
Yeah, I agree with that 1000% that they don't set the clear rules as to, like, okay, what is the crystal skull? What can it do? And why do we care? Right? It's shown to have different powers at different times. No one really sets that out. But I think that is a symptom of a larger problem in the movie, which is just that a lot of its themes are really underbaked. So you mentioned that idea of knowledge. So you have this concept of knowledge as the thing knowing too much. This Prometheus angle, right? We flew too close to the sun, or we stole from the gods. This power, the way that fits into the villains thing about, I want to know. We want to read the thoughts of our enemies.

16:25
Doug Lief
They're, like, poking around the edges of ideas and a theme, but it doesn't form the spine of the movie. Like, it's never a fully formed thought. The way that, like, the hunt for the holy grail in that movie is all. The quest for the Grail is all about, like, the quest for Indy and his father to reconnect and what it means for them to share that, so much so that, like, when they finally get to the end and it's like, hey, I can grab this thing. And for his father to say, who's quested for the Grail his entire life, to say, like, no, indy, let it go. Right? That has so much power in that moment.

17:04
Sam
Right.

17:04
Doug Lief
We get none of that here because they haven't. I mean, just in terms of pure basic storytelling, you don't have a theme. You have half a theme, and you have a couple of them. None of them are developed enough to support what's happening in the movie. And as a result, all of the things, the set pieces, the skull itself, the beat to beat, like, where are we going and why? None of it is in service to anything. So it all just kind of crumbles.

17:29
Sam
Yeah. Speaking of relationships.

17:32
Doug Lief
Yeah.

17:33
Sam
How do you guys feel about all of the relationships or the facsimile of them?

17:41
Case
Oh, God, man, we're coming in hot. So we're kind of, like, just being like, yeah, this is the thing that bothered me. This is the thing that bothered me. So I guess we're doing bad first.

17:51
Sam
We're doing bad first. We can talk about the good later.

17:53
Case
Yeah. The stuff with Marian. Like, they should not be meant to be. Like, him getting cold feet and running off. That should have been a sign, and it kind of was. And then by the end of the movie, it's like, oh, I guess we're actually, like, meant to be. Let's get married. And that is the biggest bullshit scene fucking ever.

18:11
Sam
Yeah.

18:12
Case
Like, I have a note specifically that, like, she should be mad and she is justified to be mad, and, like, she has moved on with her life, and that is fine. It would be perfectly in keeping for, like, somewhere in the third act, like, a quickie between the two of them, because, like, that's the problem, which is that they, like, actually are just, like, really into each other and, like, keep coming back, and no matter what, they, like, keep crossing paths and being like, can we make this work?

18:35
Sam
No.

18:35
Case
No. This is a bad idea. It's always going to be a bad idea. Acknowledge the fact that, like, you're into each other and that, like, it's purely physical with some level of respect, but, like, you're both going to, like, wander off into whatever thing you're doing and, like, let that be, like. Like, allow for the two of them just to be, like, we can be friends with benefits. Right. And, like, I feel like that is natural for those two specifically, because I think that actually allows for the relationship with Mutt to better. Like, I actually overall, like mutt at the time, it was popular not to. And, like, Shia LaBeouf is a strange figure to discuss because is Douchey.

19:13
Case
He's bad, and we used to hate him for things that aren't the right reasons to hate him, and now there's plenty of reasons to hate him. And also, he's coming with a knife. Shia. Shia. But I think he's fine in this movie. Like, that relationship is fine. I wish we got something with Connery. And I realized that, like, he turned down the part for reasons which we'll talk about, but it would have been nice to have a little bit of that, to have, like, a father son grandson kind of dynamic between the three of them, even if it's just for something at the end of the movie, but, like, even better if you could get him somewhere in there in the third act. I don't think he should be, like, at the beginning, being, like, indy, go off and do your thing.

19:51
Case
That shouldn't be the scene. But, you know, like, that's fine. I'm, like, happy to have, like, indy have that relationship with a son, because that's a dynamic that makes sense for the character. Mac, I think, had the potential to be funnier than he was. And overall, I like, as a concept, I have thoughts about how they introduce everything at the beginning of the movie. His thing, I think, is fine as a through line throughout the movie.

20:12
Sam
Yeah.

20:12
Case
It would have just been better if it was even more confusing and, like, humorous and just, you know, leaned into that element there. Cate Blanchett, she's not that bad of a villain. Like, she's not like that.

20:24
Sam
She's just underdeveloped. I mean, like, honestly, it's just like, I mean, she's Caitlin, Chet. She does her work when she gets there. I just don't think she had a lot on the page.

20:37
Case
She's like an enemy operative, and that's cool. She's got awards, and she's competent and, like, yeah, they do bad stuff, but, like, no one's as bad as the Nazis.

20:47
Sam
Fair enough.

20:48
Doug Lief
Okay, where to start with this? So, as far as mutt goes, this, to me, is also another symptom of the thing I was talking about before, where you've got the possibility of this idea of holding up a mirror to Indy's relationship with his father versus Indy's relationship with his son. And I don't feel like, again, they do enough to connect those dots. You can see, like, there's, like, some inklings of, like, we could do this. We could make this a part of the movie. And if you made it a focus, maybe it would have worked, but it's not there. I don't particularly care for this character. Shia LaBeouf himself is fine in this movie. Like, there's a reason he was popular for a while. He is forgetting his off screen behavior. He is a talented performer, and he brings some charm to this.

21:31
Doug Lief
But fundamental flaws were, like, he doesn't come into the movie for, let's say, the first third of it. They don't reveal he's Indy's son until the last third of it, and then there's just sort of a bunch of, like, meaningless action sequences and stuff. They don't develop that relationship to me at all. So it doesn't work. I know you guys haven't seen dial, but they basically poochie him to explain his absence in the movie. He died on the way to his home planet. I will say dial makes the best possible lemonade out of this situation that you could hope for. But getting back to this. Yeah, Mutt didn't. That whole thing didn't work for me. It just felt like we have to shove in this character as I think maybe there's a backstop. While Harrison Ford dies, he can be the new Indiana Jones.

22:15
Doug Lief
Like, just none of it worked for me. He doesn't really have an arc through the movie either, that I could see. Karen Allen actually didn't bother me that much. They have some of the best verbal sparring in the movie, which was sort.

22:25
Case
Of okay when they spar. That is great.

22:27
Doug Lief
Yeah, that stuff works because, you know, you can. Clearly, they're. They're old hats at this stuff, but Mac, he's okay. I had a note when I was just. I just wrote classic Mac, which is, I feel like the movie's telling us we're supposed to love this character, but they don't introduce him in a way that makes us attached to him, and they never give us that. So he just sort of feels like, I don't know, we need a homo sapien for Indiana Jones to talk to sometime. So here he is.

22:56
Sam
Yeah.

22:56
Doug Lief
And then Cate Blanchett. I did not like her in this at all. I don't have a problem with the Soviets as the villain. That makes sense for the fifties setting. I think there is probably a better way to do that. But my biggest problem with her is she's basically Natasha from Rocky and Bullwinkle in this movie. And we talked about, like, Indiana Jones owes its debt to this Saturday morning stuff that it's based on, but it never actually feels like a Saturday morning cartoon to me, that performance, like, she might as well be chasing moose and squirrel. Like, she is a cartoon of a villain. And so it doesn't work. It's like, I don't get a sense of what she's really after. Like, I understand what the villains are after in the other movies.

23:37
Doug Lief
If the Nazis get their hands on this, it's game over, because I understand what it's going to do, or I understand what they're going to do with it. Here, it's just like, she's a bad guy who talks in a soviet accent and generally does bad guy stuff until the movie's over. And it's just all of this stuff fell flat for me in terms of these characters.

23:58
Sam
Yeah. And it seems like at the end, she's, like, obsessed with the idea of knowledge, but you don't get that till the very end in, like, her one little speech, it's very messy for her character. I also felt like there's some. Well, there's a lot of misconnections with all the relationships. But I feel like it's kind of sad. There's like, this weird thing that's kind of hinted about Professor Oxley kind of being there, right, for Mutt and his mom. But it's really weird because then later on, he's like, indy's the father. And I just feel like there's this missed opportunity to have a little bit of, you're not my father. He's kind of more my father. Even if Marian and Oxley are not together, and they were never romantic, mutt clearly was attached to him. Right. He's like, I'm going to go find him.

24:50
Sam
My mom went to go find him. We have to go find these two people. They're important to me. And he kind of has this moment where he's like, oh, my God, Oxley, it's me. Like, you know, like, it's me. And then once Indy is revealed to be his dad, that's kind of just thrown away and scrapped. And we never kind of get that tension, which is a missed opportunity. Like, that can be a growth opportunity for both Indy and him, but that's just completely thrown out the window. And now we're just going to play. My son has to go to school.

25:22
Doug Lief
Yeah. Oxley is essentially should be filling the role that Sean Connery does in last crusade of being this slightly older archaeologist. He was ahead on the trail for the crystal skull, and now he's been. It's very much what happens in last crusade.

25:37
Case
Right.

25:38
Doug Lief
Indy catches up to its father. He's like, I told you not to come here. You know? And now they have a lot of really fun dialogue. And unfortunately, they decided, well, we're gonna make it so that he is brain damaged from the crystal skull. And so he spends virtually all of his time in the movie being this incoherent liability where he could otherwise be like, oh, he could be just as sharp and entertaining as Indy himself and serve as a great counterpoint.

26:03
Case
Yeah, yeah. Oxley feels like the one that I'm really sad that, like, Marcus Brody didn't return, because, like, that feels like that character right there. Like, that would have given him some history. And, like, hurt is a perfectly good replacement actor for the part. But, yeah, he should have had some more innate knowledge to him. We could have done more with that damn character.

26:25
Doug Lief
Just have him get cured earlier so he doesn't have to spend the entire movie gibbering.

26:31
Sam
Yeah, yeah. Or you can have him, like, pretend that he's not, and, like, kind of, like, pull him aside and be like, listen, solaroose, you know, just give him some of the ability to be a character in the film.

26:44
Doug Lief
He's basically doing what, like, the usual puzzles do in the movie. So, like, in last Crusade, they go to the library and he finds x marks the spot.

26:53
Case
Right.

26:53
Doug Lief
And that's a clue to where the Grail might be. And here they don't have any, like, clues in the environment or. But, like, literally, he just spouts off riddles that they solve along the way.

27:02
Sam
It's true.

27:03
Doug Lief
Yeah, it just robs him of being a character. He's a human grail tablet.

27:07
Case
Yeah.

27:08
Sam
The movie looks really good, though.

27:10
Case
Does it, though?

27:11
Sam
Like, well, not like there are shots. There are shots that are really nice.

27:18
Case
There are great shots in this movie, but across the goddamn board, this whole movie, I have a note that the sepia is just, like, a bit much. And I get that part of it is that it is there to help hide CGI. And that makes enough sense. But you know what? Then every time they're in a scene, like, especially, like, the interrogation scene with the FBI guys at the beginning, you know, like, with the janitor from scrubs, it's got this, like, David Fincher kind of quality of this, like, little bit of, like, green underlighting, and it's just this, like, whiplash of, like, what the actual aesthetic is supposed to be. Like, you were talking about. Like, does this, like, look like an Indiana Jones movie? Like, did it look like the pulp fiction movies of the past?

27:57
Case
And the problem, I think, is that the early Indiana Jones movies looked like really well done 1980s versions of those. Like, pulp fiction movies of the thirties and forties. Like, it's like, here's the production value that goddamn Steven Spielberg can put into a movie like that. And, like, look how good it looks. And this movie looks like, hey, don't you want to have that, like, kind of nostalgic feel for the fifties? And we're not doing, like, high definition film. Like, I know they shot it in film, but it doesn't look like we're seeing film. We're seeing this, like, haze overpass to it all because there's so much green screen and blue screen going on.

28:33
Case
There's so much fake shit in this movie that feels like the prequels in terms of the amount of, like, production values to it in a way that is disappointing for the Indiana Jones movies. Like, Star wars can get away with it to a certain degree, always, because it's always been special effects movie, even though there has been, like, CG and model work and all this stuff going into Indiana Jones, it still always had this, like, veneer of authenticity to it, and this movie just doesn't have it.

29:00
Doug Lief
Yeah, I don't know what the technical stuff is as far as the processes of how they make this, but it just. I don't know if they were trying to make it use modern technology to ape the cinematography of the first three films, but it doesn't work. Right. There's definitely places where if it doesn't work for CGI, don't use CGI, do it practically the way the other movies were done. Right? Again, you guys haven't seen dial, but it looks a lot better. There's some CGI in that movie. By and large, it looks a lot better. I know that's just because we're, however many years on in the development of CGI, they've gotten better at hiding it or they just used less of it. But it is a problem.

29:39
Doug Lief
Those monkeys in that jungle seat, that whole car chase through the jungle, it doesn't feel real the way that indy feels like when he's in Raiders, which is what they're, of course, they're trying to mimic. Is that phenomenal action sequence in Raiders, the lost Ark, when he's working his way up the convoy.

29:55
Case
It's the worst scene in the whole movie. And you can walk out of the room and come back and be like, oh, it's a better movie because I missed it. I feel like that's where everyone kind of gets left off. Are you too familiar with the trope of film? Exterior, tape, interior, the idea being, like, with tv shows, especially from the era of color tv on, but really from the era of, like, high enough quality, like, magnetic tape recording that you would shoot interior footage on magnetic tape, VHS, effectively, and that it would be lower quality. But the advantage is that you are not burning material to do so every time. So you can reuse the material. And then exterior is being shot on actual film, like often like 35 millimeter. And you're actually getting, like, really good defined detail in that film.

30:44
Case
But the problem is you're shooting on film and it's easy to forget in this modern era of everyone having, like, a high definition camera in your pocket. But film actually is material that you have to measure and, like, it costs for material. Really obvious examples are things like power rangers where every exterior shot has this, like, grain to it because it's actually being shot on film. And then the interiors have, like, this, like, fuzziness. And now, admittedly, that's reshoot footage. But, like, if you look at, like, black adder, for example. Like, all the interior set stuff has this, like, kind of, like, haze to it.

31:14
Case
And then exterior has this, like, sharp cleanness to it that has sort of lent itself, for me, personally, having shots of greenery to have this, like, nostalgic vibe when I see, you know, the specific way that, like, leaves look when shot on film. And then I can live with interiors because, like, I'm used to that. But, like, you look at this movie and you look at that goddamn car chase through the jungle and everything looks like it's just, like, a little bit blurrier than it should be when we're talking about the lines of leaves. And the color gradient is usually just. It's softer and browner than it should be. Like, it's an ineffable quality of, like, what greenery looks like when properly shot in light on film versus on tape.

31:58
Case
And this movie is, like, flipping it in a way that I find really bothersome.

32:03
Doug Lief
I mean, look at this. To use another example from Spielberg's catalog, look at Jurassic park, right? Filmed two decades before this. That scene with the T. Rex attacking the jeep in the rain. That still looks real. When I watch that, I believe that's a real goddamn dinosaur menacing those people. And the foliage is real foliage in that jungle. And it almost feels like, I wish here they had done it practically. Because I feel like Spielberg is a phenomenal director when he's up against limitations like that. He'd go, okay, we can't do all of this digitally. Let's invent something that will look really cool with what we have. And instead, it was just like, well, we'll just do all of it on a green screen. And, yeah, as you can say, you can feel it when you watch it. You feel totally disconnected from that.

32:51
Doug Lief
Whereas, like, the best looking shots to me in that movie are the opening shots where you're watching these, like, cars drive through beautiful desert shots and stuff minus the horrible gopher. Like, everything else there looks phenomenal. And it's just like. Yeah, because you actually used a camera to film a goddamn location that was real and it looked good.

33:12
Sam
Yeah, I mean, I think also, like, the characters are a little more infallible in this film. I mean, how many times does Shia LaBeouf, or I should say mutt, get hit in the crotch by plants and not fall off? I'm sorry, that's just. No, it just. There's just so many things in this film that's just like, oh, the movie.

33:38
Case
Is just, like, slapstickier. Yeah, I don't want to, like, overstate how serious the Indiana Jones movies have been. They're jokey high adventure, kind of like swashbuckling stories about this, like, man's man character. Like, they're not like, perfect movies, but there's all these spots where it's just, like, a little too far. Like, a little too far this, a little too far that it's just so bothersome where it leans into it too much. And part of that, I think, is that the movie just, like, throws you into it and, like, doesn't get you up to speed. So it's just like, here's some bullshit guys enjoy. And the pause point that I know they think is there is, like, a little too far and the plot's a little too far underway and, like, all these things. So you just don't give a shit.

34:21
Doug Lief
Yeah, they don't give you a reason to connect to this stuff, which makes it stand out a lot more. Like Pirates of the Caribbean. Right. Way more entertaining movie. Are there seams in the visuals in that movie? Yeah, you can see them now. There's places where that kind of stuff doesn't work. There's slapsticky things in those movies, but because I'm on board with those characters, I'm on board for some of this stuff. They never do the work in this movie to make you fall in love with the characters, even indie.

34:52
Case
Yeah.

34:52
Doug Lief
So that when this stuff happens, it connects. And you're talking about, like, it's slapsticky. Like, you're right. The original trilogy has great moments of physical comedy, but physical comedy and slapstick are not co extensive. There is a difference. And what you see here is just a lot of, like, bullshit, for lack of a better word, than say a really funny thing delivered with physicality. It's another one that comes to mind, I guess, because the two I've seen most recently are this one in the last crusade. But, like, so when they go, when Indy goes over the cliff and the characters are all looking over like, oh, my God, he died, right? And he climbs up the side of the cliff where they can't see him and he's standing behind them, they have this great moment between father and son.

35:37
Doug Lief
And then, Sean, comedy is like, all right, we're almost there. Let's go. And he's just, like, left, like, still gasping for breath. Like, that's a very physical thing. That's very funny. The classic moment in Raiders when the guy menaces him with the sword and then he just turns around and shoots him. That's physical comedy. It's not slapsticky bullshit.

35:56
Case
Like, that's the thing with this movie. It's so safe that it loses the bite that this kind of movie kind of required to be more than just a little bit of a love letter to, like, pulp fiction stuff. Like, why are we watching this on the big screen? Why are we even paying money for it? Why is this not just, like, a Sci-Fi channel original movie if we're gonna do some bullshit about aliens? Like, what is compelling about this movie? And there's just not a lot there. Like, the thing that sold raiders of the Lost Ark was that it was this very easy to understand, like, pulp fiction premise on a movie that was unrelenting.

36:35
Case
It is violent and it is consistent and, like, there's almost no space to breathe, or at least not at the time of production relative to other movies at the time. Like, it changed the way that people shot action movies. And this movie just feels safe and kind of boring. And it's like, a little neutered. And I kept thinking about how it reminded me of live free or die hard. The one that is notoriously like, hey, it's pg 13. So we say, yippee ki yay. And then, like, cut away from that scene. It's the one where did we need to, like, move past a trilogy and, like, make a movie that is, like, a neutered version of all the other ones? And, like, I come across this movie similarly to that one where, like, there are good things about both.

37:20
Case
Like, as a follow up, it's not the worst thing in the world. It's not. It's not alien resurrection. You know? Like, there are way worse sequels out there than this. It's just kind of boring in a way that, like, I don't. Again, like, sam, you said if it's on tv, it's fine, right?

37:37
Doug Lief
Yeah. The other thing about it is I think a lot of the good parts of the movie tend to be. It tends to be kind of front loaded and it tends to get worse as it goes on. At least for me. I was watching it for this. I was like, you know, I don't know. This doesn't seem so bad. Why was my memory of this so bad? And, like, as I kept watching, it was like, oh, it's a disappointment of watching this thing. Just like you're watching the wheels come off slowly rather than all at once. Like, for all the crap the nuke the fridge thing got, which is dumb. It is colossally dumb. It's one point in the movie that you can kind of go, like, all right, well, that's one weird thing. Okay, fine.

38:16
Doug Lief
But then, yeah, it just keeps, like, slowly, like, oh, they missed the turn off for good movie. Oh, they missed the turn off again for good movie. And it just happens over and over as you watch it, and it's just. That's, to me, kind of this one of the most frustrating parts. Like, there's. There are parts of a good movie in here, and they're marooned inside a bad movie, and we'll never get the, like, the thing we're supposed to be here to talk about, which is, what would you do to fix it?

38:40
Case
Right.

38:40
Doug Lief
What would the good version of this look like? Like, yeah, we'll never get to see, like, the director's cut of Crystal Skull, where it actually turns into a good movie.

38:48
Sam
It's so funny that you brought up the refrigerator because, like, just, like, you. That didn't really bother me that much. Like, I was like, well, you know, whatevs. It's a movie, right? Like, I was able to, like, let it go, but so many people online cannot let that go. And I understand it's. It's dumb, but it's a movie. I'm willing to throw a couple bones here or there, you know?

39:12
Case
Yeah, I think that one gets too much undue heat. Like, I actually rather like, oh, he's in this, like, weird, like, fake town that they're bombing. Like, that set piece is really cool. And, like, I think if the remainder of the movie. And actually not right after that scene, but, like, if the. The last half of the movie, if that was a good movie that people were really into and, like, really enjoyed, I feel like everyone would have been like, that was a weird bullshit scene with the refrigerator, but it was part of a good set piece because that's what it would have been. And instead, it's the first thing people can point to in a movie that does not finish strong.

39:47
Sam
I mean, the weirdest thing about Indiana Jones always has been how does he never lose his hat? How does he continue to find that hat and get it back to him? That's the magic of him. So if we're gonna nitpick about anything but this movie, especially, like, when he's on that rocket, like, to the town, there's no way his hat went with him, but suddenly he still had it.

40:12
Case
This whole movie. I kept on thinking that, like, they needed to update his look for the fact that he's, like, in his sixties. Like, yeah, I can keep his, like, color tone, and I can keep him wearing a fedora. But he needed to look a little bit cleaner cut. At least in the first, like, two thirds of the movie. He shifts gears into just wearing his indie uniform. After the opening scene is him just wearing his indie uniform. And we never have time for him to feel like he's in a suit with a vest. And it's getting, like, more stripped down as shit's getting realer. Like, it's just, here's my suit for action. And we never have a point where we feel like Indy is really, like, escalating things on his end.

40:51
Case
Like him going from being kind of a more proper looking teacher to something that's a little bit more like, well, my sleeves are rolled up and I'm ready to punch some people. That should feel like a gradient, and instead it's just a very hard cut.

41:07
Sam
Yeah. So what was your favorite part?

41:11
Doug Lief
I like the stuff in the school, honestly. Indiana Jones as teacher is always kind of funny because we don't get a whole lot of him in his, like, Clark category state as a teacher. I think it's well delivered. I actually like Jim Broadbent kind of filling in for Marcus Brody as the dean of the school night. I think that's a really sweet scene where he says, yeah, actually, I quit too. Right. And I wish that character was on the adventure somehow because there was more to do with him and we just missed him. I think the action sequence that revolves with him going in and around the school works. Of all the action set pieces, I think that is probably the most consistently entertaining one and feels the most like an Indiana Jones.

41:50
Case
I don't go as far to say as from him being at the school and getting fired, to them going to, like, literally to the actual shot of them walking into the cemetery. That is the strongest portion of the movie.

42:03
Sam
Yeah.

42:04
Case
Which includes the introduction of Shia LaBeouf. Like, even with that stupid fucking hat that he's wearing, I think that it actually works okay as a scene. And the diner scene is actually surprisingly good.

42:13
Sam
And the chase right after diner scene's great. That was my favorite part.

42:15
Case
Like, that whole stretch right there is like, oh, this feels like an Indiana Jones movie. And we haven't gone too far into the crazy bullshit. Like, it's a little tan in color scheme, but, like, I can live with that for this movie. The whole school stuff felt like Indiana Jones at school stuff. That felt great. It's him going on the same kind of sequences. He's a bit older, whatever. You know, whatever. Him, like, talking to an academic colleague while at his place. And they both have glasses of spirits. Like, that makes a lot of sense, him getting the info dump in a scene. And in this case, it's a diner, which is like, it's cool.

42:50
Case
It's different than, like, the sort of, like, government rundown we get in the first one or the, like, well, you should go find my father kind of scene from, like, the third one. You know? It's like, nice. It's like, all right. Yeah, he's getting the lowdown at the diner. We get scenes that sort of, like, set up mutt. Like, those are kind of fun. I like when. I like when the russian spies come and they, like, split it up and it turns into this, like, very stock. Like, here's the greasers versus, like, the preps, kind of like, yeah, sequence. Like, that's fucking great. I like that. Again. Like, the car chase is great. That all of that is awesome. And then the cemetery, I'm convinced, is a fucking model as opposed to, like, CG.

43:24
Case
Like, the shot of it has this, like, three dimensionality to it that it's a miniature. Yeah, exactly. I think it's a miniature. I think I. And. And I think it looks really good. And it cuts the Shia labeouf walking through these vines. And I'm like, oh, yeah, this feels like classic. We're shooting use a miniature to establish the set piece and then have a backdrop where it's just like, yeah, it's some fucking leaves, guys, to sell this sort of, like, jungle fantasy kind of sequence there. And it's like, we're not grave robbers. And they walk in, that's a great chunk right there. And then this movie, like, doubles down on the racism. And from that point on, it's kind of already losing me. And none of the sequences really matter.

44:03
Case
And we have multiple points where, like, the natives are protecting the graves and like, that's too much, guys. That was too much in the eighties, but, like, it was the eighties. This is the mid two thousands. We're too far gone for this, guys. You need to at least explain it. You can't just be like, oh, they were. They were in the walls. Like that. That shit does not make any fucking sense. Like, this is not a rocket.

44:26
Doug Lief
Do you think those guys just sit there for, like, hours and hours every day hoping an archaeologist is going to swing by?

44:32
Case
It's mad.

44:32
Doug Lief
What are they doing?

44:35
Case
That's the horror that the Harkonnens do in, like, dune. Like, that's supposed to be, like, the most decadent evil, like, fifedom kind of situation. There and here, it's just like, oh, yeah, they're just fucking hanging out. And just in case, like, this archaeologist shows up, like, you gotta set that shit up.

44:50
Sam
Yeah.

44:51
Doug Lief
I mean, compare that to the opening of raiders, right? Which is kind of the obvious comparison point. But there, they're not sitting around in this booby trap filled temple waiting for someone to come along. They attack Indy, rightly, I suppose, because he walks out of this temple with their sacred object that they care about. And then they're after.

45:07
Case
And I'm pretty sure the giant rock.

45:09
Doug Lief
Was like, it makes more sense, you.

45:10
Case
Know, like, for sure.

45:12
Sam
Also for sure.

45:13
Doug Lief
So, yeah, that does not work. That is definitely where the wheels. The first wheels really start to come off is during that sequence. Like, something is just wrong with it. I will say, like, there's some really fun physical bits in the stuff at the school. First of all, the idea of, like, Indy's adventuring, following him home to his day job at his school. That's a great idea. They've never really played with that much. I thought that was a really cool touch. Having the statue of Marcus Brody fall apart was good.

45:39
Case
The spot where he rides in on the motorcycle in the student asks him a question about an academic thing.

45:44
Sam
Yeah.

45:45
Case
Like, that is the best goddamn part of this movie. Like that. Like that exact moment. Because you're like, oh, that feels. It feels indie. It also feels like an indie thing that we hadn't gotten yet.

45:55
Doug Lief
Yeah, totally.

45:56
Case
That's the best part. Like, where it's a thing. It wasn't just like, oh, yeah, it's true to the character. It's true to the character. An additive in a way that, like, most of this movie just isn't.

46:04
Doug Lief
So the other thing I wanted to say that is good at the top, and I wish we got more of was the fifties. As you said, we got to go with the fifties because that's how old Harrison Ford is at this point. And using that, I forget which song they use at the Hound dog. Is it hound dogs at the beginning?

46:19
Case
Yeah. Opening with Elvis makes sense.

46:21
Doug Lief
When the greaser fight breaks out. And shake, rattle and roll is going. I wish they had used shake, rattle and roll for the entire action sequence. I think that would have been even better than the John Williams score because having it kind of punctuate at the end of the song where he gets off the motorcycle would have been cool. And even the specter of atomic destruction. That's an interesting thing that goes with the. All that stuff was good. But the problem is, once we get to Peru. Any hint of the fifties are basically gone, and you lose some of that sense of time in place where, say, the thirties and Nazi Dom are so prevalent in the others.

46:57
Case
Yeah, that's the bummer. The second half of the movie is just so weak. The first half, like, even the first grave robbery scene is, like, still, like, kind of keeping it okay. Like, the quicksand bit. And, like, the joke about, like, actually it's a dry sand thing. Like, I'm still here for parts of that. Like, we haven't, like, fully crossed the line into, like, oh, this is too much. But the movie doesn't come with a strong foot to begin with, because while I think it's a good set piece, both the warehouse and then, like, the fake town thing. Why do they have Indy there? They come into this, like, military base. I get that they are saying that they're bringing him there because he might be able to help them figure out what box they're looking for.

47:41
Case
But army of Russians on american soil is able to neutralize all the defenses of this base and go into it seemingly unmolested. They appear to have eliminated any threats. They have not set up a timeline that they need to be out by. And they have a small army. Like, it's. You know, it's multiple vehicles worth of people. They have a lot of them in a warehouse space. And I get that it is a warehouse space with a confusing coded system to obfuscate where anything is. Who cares?

48:13
Doug Lief
They have an army, and why is Indy the guy? To help them solve it?

48:16
Sam
Yeah.

48:16
Case
Even outside of Indy being the one to help them solve it. And, like, magnets, blah, blah. It's, like, cute bits there. But the circumstances needs a time bomb. Like, there's a bomb adjacent. But they're not bombing that base. There's no indication that the only window they have is, like, while the bomb test is going on, they're just there with an army in a space with innumerable government secrets, and they're like, we have to find the one thing we're here for as opposed to being, like, open every box. I'm sure something's cool.

48:46
Sam
Yeah.

48:47
Doug Lief
Speaking of which, if they were there to find a super weapon. The grail, in one of the words. No, not the ark.

48:54
Case
Oh, yes. Pardon me. Yes. The ark.

48:57
Doug Lief
You think of that, like, bit where they referenced the ark in Lasker seid, and it's a very subtle. And I was like, yep, pretty sure that's the arc, right? It's really funny. And here it's just like, ugh. You know, it's like, it's the worst kind of just like, hey, you've seen this thing before. There is, but it's also kind of like, man, the Russians almost had their hands on the thing that gives you an unstoppable army right there in their hands. All of that stuff. It just feels like you're right. It's like, yes, okay, I guess it would be nice to have this crystal skull that you think might exist. But also there's two crystal skulls in the movie. There's a plot there where they have the alien in a bag and they open it up to show there's a skull inside.

49:35
Doug Lief
What happens to that thing's crystal skull? Why are there aliens crash landing here? Now? The whole point is we got to put this alien's head back on this other group of aliens heads from 400 years ago. So what, where do the new aliens figure?

49:48
Case
Ancient aliens versus the Roswell thing and it's being jammed together and it feels like, again, a compromise to get us back to like older school Indiana Jones. But I think if they never bothered with that, I think if they just leaned into the b movie, Fifties Alien thing, we'd be talking about a better movie because at least it's one coherent idea instead of being like, all right, well, the first half of the movie there was a weird thing that you analyzed Doctor Jones. Like it's this thing that we're trying to track down and it's related to an alien that landed in the fifties. And then it's like, also side note, we should go check out the origin of these pyramids that we're going to be very racist about all of the factoids about.

50:29
Case
That's why I think the second half of the movie is so bad. Like, because it's not doing anything with the setup and it looks bad and it feels racist and it feels like doubling down on it because there are things where it's like, well, that feels like a little racist earlier in the movie. And then they're like, no, let's just lean into it as hard as we can right here and be boring and be ugly.

50:50
Sam
And it's like they write themselves into a corner by the time you get to the end. And the other dimension that we know is the other dimension after all the fact opens up. You're like, what the fuck am I watching?

51:05
Doug Lief
There's another even like weirder thing that happens at the end where so India talks about the residents of the mythical city of Akator is like, well, they must have had help from ancient aliens because their technology was way beyond anything else. Their peers and knowledge was their treasure and all this shit. And we actually, what little we see of their civilization is like, I don't know, looks like the Aztecs or the Maya. They're not wielding laser guns, right? They're not technologically ahead, right? There's none of them.

51:34
Sam
You're not walking into some secret fortress.

51:37
Case
I had a thought about this with the second half of the movie. Like, I almost want Indy to get a laser gun in this movie. Either an alien laser gun or, you know, like something, or just make this congo, like, have the human laser gun based on the technology that they're, like, ripping off from the aliens. Like, lean into that. Like, the space pulp fiction character that we're talking about here. That wasn't the thirties version, but it is this story's version. Indy is just struggling to both be true to what he was before, but also the meta nature that Spielberg and Lucas, to the larger extent, is really going at this franchise from looking at what they wanted to do in the first place. Lucas is a nerd, and I mean that in the best possible way.

52:23
Case
Like, I actually rather appreciate what he has done in terms of, like, popularizing the things that he just fucking liked. It was like, I really liked these things when I was a teenager, and I want to be a nerd about it. And I'm like, same, bro. I get that, man. It's the same thing I love about, like, alan Moore, for example, where it's like, we're going to, like, deep dive into a thing and, like, honestly, I would rather it be a conversation. Conversation about, like, isn't it fucking weird that these things are the case with this, like, genre or, like, the tropes of the thing? Like, I feel like that is Lucas, like, in goal, but he's also a very sheltered rich white boy from California.

53:00
Case
And, like, his perspective on it oftentimes, like, I don't think he's ever maliciously racist, but, like, Luke is the type of person to be like, no, it makes sense. There would be, like, savages there, right? And you'd be like, say that again. And be like, oh, I see the problem, but no one ever tells him to say that again, right. You know, like, I think he's a fairly well intentioned, like, fairly progressive for what he is, but he's a trust fund baby kind of character in the story of history. But I appreciate his nerddom and, like, a lot of the things he's trying to do I like the idea of Indiana Jones being a deconstruction of pulp fiction cliches and shifting the era that it's coming out being part of that. I appreciate all of that.

53:40
Case
I think that's all great, but I think that there was at the very least, this like, perspective of like, well, but what genre specifically is Indiana Jones a part of that genre question is as meta. But like, the idea of him being this like, slowly evolving character over the times. Like being like, well, we're doing Doc Savage and then like, well, what would a fifties doc savage story be like? Or the equivalent story for the character be like versus like, well, we have to keep it like kind of like tied to that era. But the problem with the latter perspective is that the real world is also advancing. So it's not just like, well, we're doing a fifties version of 30 story. It was already. We're doing an eighties version of a 30 story.

54:21
Case
So what is a two thousands version of a fifties story? You know, like it's this extra layer that like, it wasn't quite designed for. And like, they just were like, well, we have to have a jungle. We have to have weird shit with like ancient civilizations stuff. It's just too much. We're not playing to the strengths that both Lucas and Spielberg are bringing to this project with this movie.

54:45
Doug Lief
And like we said before, I think Sci-Fi just isn't the right fit. There is a long history of Sci-Fi pulp stuff. There's also a long history of horror pulp stuff, and I don't think Indy fits into that either. At one point, before they did last crusade, there was an idea to do this story about Indiana Jones in a haunted scottish castle. And like Indiana Jones, Ghostbuster is also wrong. Just because it could be a pulpy thing, that doesn't mean it fits Indy's world. And so this one really just feels like an outlier trying to shove this square peg through a round hole just it's, I think, fundamentally never going to work. There is no good version of an Indiana Jones story involving aliens because that's just a tonal mismatch.

55:30
Case
I disagree, but I think that they needed to do more work if they were going to set that up. I think that the opening of this movie is a problem that we've danced around a little bit, but the fact that it is a part of the larger narrative means that we never have that sort of real breathing point or that real catch up point. This movie should have had an opening sequence that got us up to speed with where Indiana Jones was at this point in the fifties. And then we should have gotten more about the actual plot of it. And they're trying to, because that's why mutt shows up. And we have the diner scene where he's explaining what he sees. But we've already set up that plot.

56:11
Case
And, Doug, as you pointed out, it actually means that it's more confusing because they're like, oh, there's multiple skulls. Like, really, the opening scene, even if you wanted to set up the antagonists of this movie in that sequence, which is not a thing that the previous ones have done, but I get it. Like, we're gonna try to streamline and, like, make this, like, a little bit of a dumbed down Indiana Jones movie, because, again, this is, like, the live free or die hard type sequence. It still should have been, like, a different thing. Even if you want to introduce all of the villains that we're gonna be talking about throughout this whole movie, it should have been. They were trying to do one thing and failed, and then we got information about their next plan.

56:49
Case
And I even don't think that really that we should get all of them. I think that we should have had Mac. I think we should have had a story, and it would be just like the fucking other archaeologists at the beginning of Raiders of the Lost Ark. We're setting up, like, oh, he has antagonist. But then there's the larger forces at work, which are the Nazis. Like, we should have Mac as being like, oh, yeah. He's this, like, frenemy character that, like, betrays him constantly, but also, like. Like, sides with him, and you can't really, like, trust him more. Whatever. Like, that's. That's his shtick. We don't need to be dealing with the other, like, main villains of the movie at this point.

57:20
Case
And it should be a different 1950s trope that they want to play into that is not the one that we're actually dealing with. Like, Raiders has, like, the. This lost jungle thing, and then it's a lost Egypt thing. Like, they're the two different settings are there, and you. You know, you think about the jungle stuff in Raiders, but it's actually not the main part of their adventure. This way, you could have, like, a hint of some other weird thing. There's a piece to me, and this is why I, like, keep fighting back against, like, the Sci-Fi thing. You could do some shit with, like, some. Some weird Sci-Fi, like, giant ants or some shit. Like, I love the ants later. And it'd be kind of fun if, like, ants were a through line for this or giant, like, snake and, like.

57:57
Case
Like, that be the one time where you reference the snake thing instead of the incredibly awkward snake referencing sequence in this movie. But regardless, like, the opening sequence is just like, it's part of the main plot, which means that we never have a spot where. Where we're being, like, caught up on, like, how Indy is entering the story. Like, the previous movies. The first part of the movie is wrapping up a story that we hadn't seen, because indie is that kind of pulp fiction character, and instead this is just like, it's just like a big fucking kind of annoying two part story that really could have been a one part story kind of thing.

58:29
Case
Like, the opening should have been like, we're wrapping this other thing up and, like, maybe there's a recurring villain, but, like, that was its own Indiana Jones story, and then much shows up to, like, give all this, like, breakdown of stuff. And that's the starting point of this new Indiana gen series because that feels like a serialized story, and this movie does not feel as much like one as all the previous ones. And it's bad.

58:52
Doug Lief
You heard it here first, folks. Crystal skull is.

58:55
Case
I mean, like, that specific choice is bad. Like, I.

58:58
Doug Lief
No, but I know what you mean. Yeah, no, I agree with you. Like, it. It's setting the table, right, the film, you need to set the table in terms of storytelling so that when all of the daring do starts happening, we understand where we're starting and where we're coming from.

59:14
Case
Exactly. Like, we're not caught up to speed on Indy until we're already thrown into the plot. And, like, if we had been caught up to speed, we're like, all right, this is Indy. This is what he's doing. He fought in World War two. He's dealing with weird super saiyan shit of the fifties. I could live with that. The world has moved on and things have gotten weirder. India's adapting instead. It's just like, here's the key story. And it's gonna be confusing because of all the reasons that we said that. Their approach to aliens in this movie is both confusing and weird and kind of dumb and not that compelling.

59:51
Sam
It's a mess from start to finish because they don't.

59:54
Case
Define not start to finish, though, because again, after that sequence, we've got a good chunk of the movie, like, effectively the first half of act two and the majority of act one is actually pretty good, and then it falls apart, like, after that. So we've said some stuff we like and then circled back to things that we don't or things that we wish were better. I feel like we're chomping at the bit to talk about this, even if our suggestions are ultimately bound by the fact that this movie is just kind of mid and in a generation of mid sequels. But why don't we take that break, listen to an ad from one of the great shows on the network, and when we come back, we will see what we can do to make this a stronger entry in the Indiana Jones franchise.

01:00:42
Case
Video games are a unique medium. They can tell stories, immerse us in strange, fantastic worlds, blur the very boundaries of our reality. But at the end of the day, video games are fun, whatever fun is to you. I'm Jeff Moonan. And I am Matt, aka Stormageddon. And on fun and games, we talk about the history, trends, and community of video games. It's a celebration of all the games we play and all the fun we find within them. And there's so many more games out there, so we hope you'll share in that conversation with us. Fun and Games podcast with Matt and Jeff. Find us on certainpov.com dot or wherever you get your podcasts and happy gaming. And we're back.

01:01:21
Case
All right, so talking about this movie, I don't hate this movie, but I think this just came out at a time where, I mean, this came out, like, consistent with the Dark Knight and then with Iron man. So, like, studios are like, let's get franchises going. Let's see what we can do to, like, bring the money back. But let's also, like, keep it from being, like, too aggressive. Like, let's not have the body counts of the other Indiana Jones movies because he kills, I think, nine people in the first movie, I think, 15 in the second, and, like, 20 in the third. Like, it's a lot of people that Indiana Jones murders in those movies. Like, it's a hard r, and this movie's not a hard r. And it's an era where it, you know, Steven Spielberg was a grandpa.

01:02:02
Case
They're just not going to go as hard. But I think that there is room for this movie to better. Maybe not great, but at least better. And I'm curious where you guys are thinking about it. So, Doug, you are the guest, and we have one really hard rule on this movie. We have guidelines in terms of, like, well, we should try to not be unrealistic in terms of what they could do with this. They wanted Harrison Ford, so you're not going to recast Indiana Jones movies. It's Spielberg and it's Lucas. They're not going to cut those things out. But the one hard rule that we have on this is that Sam cannot go after me. So you are our guest. Would you prefer to go first? Would you prefer Sam to go first?

01:02:43
Doug Lief
Well, I'll let Sam go first. I want to hear what she has to say.

01:02:46
Sam
Oh, I'm going to be really honest with you. I had some really serious problems with this movie. So, like, how do you fix it? Well, I think, number one, I really need to understand what the villain needs. I need to understand why this artifact is so important to the villain. This happens a lot. Whenever you have a villain that's kind of, you know, two dimensional, it just kind of makes a movie flat. Right. Villains kind of make movies. So I would like to see Cate Blanchett's character give a reason, give a speech. I mean, even if it's like a James Bond speech at some point, you know, like, you know, like, kind of lay it all out for expansion. But we need that in this film. I also just think Indy doesn't need to be a family man.

01:03:38
Sam
It's fine for him to be a dad and not get married at the end. I wasn't sold on that. I did not like that. I kind of felt like the romance was kind of forced. I kind of felt that mutt accepted too quickly this, like, indie being his dad thing. I just didn't feel like there was enough, like, character tension. So I would want to shorten a lot of the set pieces, a lot of the action pieces, not the motorcycle library piece, because actually, the best character work was probably done in that diner. I mean, the. The moment where he mutt grabs the beer, and as Indy's talking, he just plates it back on the tray. That's just such a wonderful dynamic to show you, like, who the two of them are going to be with each other.

01:04:22
Sam
So, like, I would like more of that, for sure, because what this movie is, like, severely lacking is those real connections. So I think, like, a lot of the chase scenes, a lot of the stuff, they just need to be cut so that we can have time for there actually to be character development and conversation so that the relationships in this film make sense. And also, no aliens. No fucking aliens.

01:04:58
Case
All right, wait, so now you gotta back up and explain how the hell that's gonna work, right?

01:05:03
Sam
I know, I know. But, like, I just hated it so much. I hated the aliens so much, and I don't understand. Okay, like you suggested Congo before. Like, unless we're going full Congo, like, we are going, like, real secret, like, tech that's going to be a weapon that somehow can neutralize, because that's the other thing. We have a bomb blast at the beginning, right? And that sets the scene. Like, we're in the fifties. Nuclear war. Oh, my God. Right? Cold war. What would they want? Right? The KGB wants an edge on that, right? Like, make this as the precursor for, like, the space race. Like, I don't know, fall into, like, that kind of, like, thought of, like, oh. Like. Like, we're going to get technology beyond the technology that anyone has ever had. That's never defined.

01:05:55
Sam
And I hate the secret ancient aliens so much. Like, I hate it so much, case, because it's never defined for me. Like, I'm like, it can just be a secret golden temple. I mean, like, honestly, it could have been anything. The aliens didn't make or break the film. In fact, what it did was that it wrote basically put them into the worst position possible because at the end, they did not know how to get themselves out of the mess they created.

01:06:32
Doug Lief
Right?

01:06:32
Sam
Like, they wrote themselves into a corner. They literally had to create a special portal to another dimension to suck everyone up, to basically have the KGBs burn up with the knowledge that was too much for them and disappear. This is not a real end. It's horrible. It's terrible. So if you get rid of aliens and just make it only thing else, you'll be fine. And if you make it for technology and a space race, you'll be fine. But, like, I don't know. I just hate the alien so much. I can't make it work. I can't. I can't solve this movie because I hated the end so much, and they wrote us into a corner by making it ancient aliens.

01:07:20
Case
Yeah, I mean, that's totally fair. And, like, we can absolutely, like, work with trying to, like, come up with a solution to this problem because it is a large conundrum. Doug, do you want to take the next.

01:07:31
Doug Lief
Sure, I'll take a crack at it. All right. So, to me, like I said before, the great strength of this movie, to the extent it has anything going for it, is the fifties. And I think they just needed to do a better job of defining what the crystal skull is and does and tying it into the fifties. And what you do is you say, okay, the crystal skull gives you the power to remote view another person and or influence their thoughts, because that goes to, like, red scare stuff. Who can I trust, right? Are the Soviets spying on us? Are people working as double agents for the Soviets? Nobody really does any of that in that movie.

01:08:10
Doug Lief
Under the sway of this, like, if we understood, like, oh, this person has now come into possession of the skull, which means they could be manipulating my allies against me. Right? Have some of this fifties kind of intrigue working through the movie so that themes work. Take out Akator as, like, a place where, like, friends of these aliens used to live, and as a place where, okay, I can buy ancient aliens as, like, an alien spacecraft crashed somewhere and a civilization that later found it was influenced by it. Right. There's, like, art and artifacts that reference the alien without it being like, yeah, they taught us to build pyramids. Right? They don't have to do that. That kind of gets rid of some of the cultural appropriation problems and the, like, over influence of the aliens.

01:08:57
Doug Lief
And rather, it's just a place where we've got. We still have to get the skull back there for some reason, through this plot that, again, is now about who can you trust? I think there's, like, again, there's hints of that with, like, Mac being a double agent, but it's not tied to the one supernatural element and the fear of what if our enemies get their hands on that element? So I think that solves some of the larger. I don't have to figure out the entire equation, but I think that sets us on a path to have a plot that makes more sense.

01:09:25
Sam
Yeah.

01:09:26
Doug Lief
And then as far as the character stuff goes, have Mutt either find out or it's revealed much earlier on to this pairing, that Mutt is Indy's son. If we're going to do him at all, then you have the entire movie to work on that relationship as a reflection of the relationship that we know so much more about between Indy and his father. There's a moment, it was a subtle nod to that, where something happens to Indy, and he goes, oh, this is intolerable. Which is what Sean Connery says over and over again. Last crusade, right? You almost needed a moment to go like, oh, God, I've turned into my father. Right? Have him recognize that. But that doesn't happen.

01:10:02
Doug Lief
And I think if you reveal that Mutt was indies son from the outset or very early on, you would give that relationship space to develop into something that did have some resonance and some meaning that would go somewhere. I still think you might want to keep Karen Allen out of it. As much as I like her, she's one of the most likable elements of the movie, I think that gets in the way. What you need is to focus on the relationship between Indy and Mutt, not the relationship of Indy and her, if that's what you're going to do. So as much as I like her, I think she complicates that. And then, like, if for some reason you were to do another sequel, then you with that group, then you could bring her in and see how she affects that dynamic again.

01:10:45
Doug Lief
It's hard for me to talk about that without spoiling dial for you guys, the way they kind of address this part of the franchise. But doing those two things, to me, that would, again, set the movie on the path to being better. I think you could do a lot more with that as you're through lines.

01:11:01
Sam
I really like everything you said. Also, I was just thinking about, as you said this, I think it would make sense for at least mutt to know much earlier on because he has indy's actual name.

01:11:15
Case
Well, he doesn't know that Jones is his last name, which is weird considering his age. But, like, he is under the impression that Williams is his last name.

01:11:24
Sam
But that's weird.

01:11:25
Case
It's weird that Marin's like, oh, it's actually Henry Jones Junior the third, I guess.

01:11:30
Sam
Yeah, that's a weird thing. I think you just cut that all out and you just have him know that he's Henry Jones III. And no, we haven't contacted your dad. No, not interested. He left me and have him come, like, hey, like, I need your help finding the guy who's really like my dad. And I know that you can do it. So I'm here, and you owe me because you walked out on my mom and you walked out on me and have that complicated kind of thing happen just from the get go. Then you can work through that father son thing all through the movie.

01:12:10
Case
You know, while you were saying that, I was thinking about it where, like, I do really like, the flip that indie has when he finds out that mutt is his son. Like, I actually rather like the spot being like, you didn't let him finish school. Like, I think those are, like, good moments, at least in terms of, like, the levity of the character. But that actually doesn't require mutt to not know. And I'm trying to think of, like, what things were missing. Like, we would miss out if mutt new.

01:12:35
Case
And aside from the, like, the surprise of, like, what a teacher Indiana Jones is, you know, like, the whole, like, you're a teacher part time, like that whole thing, I think it works like, I think him just knowing works just fine, because even, like, even before that, he's just like, are you doctor Jones? Yadda, yadda. You're a teacher. I'm sure that's gonna be a huge help. I like that sarcasm there, and it fits. If he has kind of a shitty take on who his dad is, it makes me think of the relationship with Kirk and his son in Star Trek two. And I think that movie benefits more from the reveal for both of them. I think this movie, like, mutt, doesn't really have much of a change. Finding out in the movie that we got, like, him just knowing kind of works well.

01:13:18
Sam
I also really like the skull being able to control thing, because it does pull in that FBI moment with the red scare stuff. So, Doug, I think that's actually a good way to go because that's something that's, like, kind of there. And you're like, you can't trust anyone these days, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, all that stuff in academia, that was very good. And then they kind of just never talk about that again once they're in Peru. Like, it never comes back around.

01:13:49
Doug Lief
Spalco, that's Cate Blanchett's character talks about that in a bit of her monologuing. When they've got indie tied to the chair, it never actually happens. We never see that happen. All we know is, I don't know, I guess if you stare into the skull's eyes long enough, it'll cause brain damage. Like, that's not. And sometimes it can control ants. Like, it's. Yeah, again, it doesn't make any sense. Like, I feel like this would be more cohesive.

01:14:12
Case
I have a thought that I think kind of piggybacks kind of contradicts what you were going with. Doug. May I throw mine out?

01:14:18
Doug Lief
Of course. Yeah, sure.

01:14:19
Case
All right. So I don't think anyone's surprised. I feel like I made it pretty clear I would like this movie to lean into the Sci-Fi elements of, like, 50 Sci-Fi jockeying.

01:14:29
Sam
You what? Now?

01:14:30
Doug Lief
Here's my thought.

01:14:31
Case
The kingdom of the crystal skull. What if the kingdom of the crystal skull was the crystal skull fucking mind controlling people and trying to do a thing to get it back to its ship? Like, a reveal that the skull, like, still contains, like, all of the mind of this alien, and that just wants to get back to its ship, and its ship has crash landed, like, somewhere on the planet. And the escape pod was recovered in Roswell, New Mexico, and deal with all that, whatever. But it's not ancient aliens thing. I think the ancient aliens thing is, one, so prone to racist shit that it should be fucking cut just on virtue of that. Two, so illogical for anything that we're dealing with the setup that, what the fuck? We don't need this.

01:15:11
Case
And three, means that all the bad scenes happen because of the necessity to have the ancient alien shit and cutting that. I feel like you could actually have real sets and interesting location shots instead of just a green screen with like a machine chomping down trees so that we can have fencing while doing the splits between two cars. I think lean into it. I think that if the opening of the movie dealt with some shit, like some kind of like, fifties pulp fiction thing, and we don't see what specifically. I think, like, this would be a great spot for a joke of indy having just dealt with, like, some unspeakable horror that all of us are like, what was it? And we only see, like, the little bit of, like, I'm thinking, like, maybe like a giant radioactive snake.

01:15:54
Case
We see like, a little bit of its tail. We don't see the rest of it. And it's like, played for joke. And that's the one time we deal with it, like, why did it have to be snakes? As he's like, shutting the door and then, like, next incident occurs. Like, have Indiana Jones, who is at this point, if Indiana Jones is a pulp fiction character that is still running into the fifties. He has dealt with some weird shit every single week of his life in a way. Like, if it happened to you, it would be your story every time you went to the bar for the rest of your life. And that is every week for Indiana Jones. The movie needs to open with him having the status quo being like, yep, nope, still weird shit's just happening to this dude.

01:16:26
Case
Like, yep, he's encountered multiple proofs of God and now he's about to deal with, like, alien life forms. And last time, giant fucking snakes or giant ants or whatever. Just hint at it, play it for a laugh. Sure, you're trying to be a little bit safer and a little less violent than previous ones. Have the cold open be a little bit shorter than some of them. We don't need to have the full degree of the escaping, running away from the boulder, all that stuff. But hint at it. Hint that we just finished up some incredibly insane story, and then we get mutt explaining this new incredibly insane story. But have the skull be this invasions of the body snatchers type alien invasion story where it is a psychic thing and you can keep the psychic thing with the russian people also. They're the spies.

01:17:14
Case
They're trying to figure out what's going on. They've got psychic powers. They're following up with this whole shit. But it's a pivot from, again, the opening scene should be its own plot and set up Mac as this guy who's constantly betraying, but at the same time, like, working with them kind of thing. Back and forth, back and forth. Even the nuclear blast thing. Like, you can keep that. Like, you can. I like the set piece of, like, the fake fifties town that he, like, walks through and has to, like, figure out his way. It's a dumb way he figures it out. I get why they did it. It's not that big a deal. I like the mutt stuff. I like the greaser versus, like, varsity football player fight that happens.

01:17:50
Case
I like using that as an excuse for, like, a really good car chase sequence. I like all of those bits. But then the rest of the movie should have been, like, people who are going mad and, like, falling victim to the crystal skull trying to get it to the landing site. And it could be wherever in the world. And, like, it could be weird and vague and people are like, the crystal skull. The crystal skull. Because it's a mind control cult thing. That would be cool and fun. And then I would love if they could have gotten Connery back, who was alive and refused, supposedly because he was retired and the part wasn't beefy enough, in which case, like, just make ox Connery.

01:18:25
Case
Or just say, like, we're gonna pay you so much fucking money to be at the end of the movie so that, like, we can have a scene of just Indy introducing his son to Henry Jones Sr. Pay him a ton of money. He would have been fine with that. Like, don't just use the still from the fucking first movie. Like, it's a photo on his desk. Because that's too much. Like, lean into that all. Don't have him marry Marian at the end because that's, again, also too much. Like, they should have, like, maybe even a hookup at the very end of the movie where it's like, mom, dad, like, you know, it's just like, huh? And then, like, they're just, like, cool and, like, as separate parents. Like, co parenting mutt, who they're grooming to be the next adventurer in this whole thing.

01:19:04
Case
We don't need to have a destiny for them. We don't need to have it be like, oh, yeah, this is your, you know, your final thing, because that's the problem with this movie, is it feels like it's trying to clean up and have a happy ending for. For all this Indiana Jones stuff without providing anything new.

01:19:17
Sam
It doesn't really evolve anything really, truly. And kind of the thing that the new Star wars movies and even, like, some basically JJ Abrams films have where you're trying to copy some things from the movies before so you can build nostalgia and remind people of what they loved, but then things kind of fall flat here and there. There's a little less fan service in this than some of the things that I'm thinking about Star wars and Star Trek wise. But, yeah, this movie also has a little bit of that where definitely there were people that felt that there were echoes of other things from previous indie movies that were kind of put into the set pieces to be like, oh, here's an Easter egg for you.

01:20:06
Case
Yeah. I feel like this franchise is a victim of its own success because I think a lot of people come looking at Indiana Jones and not appreciating the fact that it was a nerd project by two giant nerds who enjoyed nerding out with each other. And, in fact, that's how they became friends, because at first, they didn't like each other, but then they, like, hung out and they're like, oh, fuck, you're a giant nerd. I am a giant nerd. Like, that's the Lucas Spielberg story. And, like, Indiana Jones is, like, the story of them just being nerds together when it is viewed too seriously or, like, too much of, like. Well, but these are the tropes. Like, we lose sight of the fact that it's just them being like, fuck, these things are fun, right, man? Like, that. Like, that. That's the franchise.

01:20:44
Case
Like, yeah, like, Nazis suck, right, dude? Yeah, nazis fucking suck, man. Like, we can all agree Nazis suck. Yeah, man. Like, let's have a guy who punches them real good and also, like, doesn't like snakes. Yeah, but he kisses the girls. Yeah, like, that's. That's Indiana Jones. But it keeps evolving and it's more stuff. A thing I like about this movie is that, like, Lucas is lefty enough that there's this, like, insistence that, like, no, Americans are douchebags, too. Right, man? Yeah, man. Americans are douchebags, too. Yeah, like, there's that. Like, that's also in play. Like, with the whole FBI. Like, we're gonna be watching you, like, all that kind of stuff.

01:21:21
Sam
Oh, for sure.

01:21:22
Case
Like, oh, Americans have superweapons, so we have to figure out a super weapon. Like, I appreciate that standpoint. America versus Russia is a much more, like, nationalistic thing than, like, allies versus, like, the axis powers, because that's a scenario of, like, no, these are the guys who had the fucking concentration camps, and they're, like, conquering everyone. And, like. Like, it wasn't a cold war. It was World War Two. And, like, empirically, the Nazis are awful, awful people. And their allies are awful, awful people subscribing and advancing an ideology that is awful and toxic and poisonous and dehumanizes things in a way that, like, it is the worst possible fucking thing and the most cartoonishly evil. And the fact that it is true is, like, kind of surprising. And so we can all just agree nazis are bad. Like, they're real bad.

01:22:07
Case
Even if World War Two hasn't started yet at the point, for the Indiana Jones movies, like, it's just, they're real fucking bad. Whatever they're doing is going to be real fucking bad. They're going to be terrible. And the communist stuff more feels like America. Yeah. Versus the communists. And, like, yeah. In the fifties, they were, like, all gung ho about it. But with hindsight, the Russians didn't win. Also, we didn't go to war with them, so it's not like they're quite. Dalin did a lot of bad shit, but it's a slightly different tier because we're not in a world war at that point. And the movie just was, like, a little bit clunkier for it.

01:22:40
Doug Lief
I really would love. I can't invite myself on your show again, but I would just love to hear. To talk to you guys more about dial once you've seen it, because I think Dial of Destiny, in so many ways, addresses a lot of the problems of Crystal Skull, and it's not as good as the original trilogy, but it's so much better than this, and it addresses so many of the problems that we've been talking about. You can tell that the people behind that were like, we can't make another crystal skull. We want to do things that are reverent to the character and his world, that feel more of a piece with what Indiana Jones is all about, and it's just done so much better. I think it'd be really interesting to hear your guys thoughts on it after you've seen it. Yeah, man.

01:23:21
Case
I'm happy to lock you guys down.

01:23:23
Doug Lief
Yeah. If you want to watch this out of your mouth, go. I would encourage people to go watch dial. It's not a bad movie, certainly, compared to this. I enjoyed it. Again, far from perfect, but there's so much more going on that's interesting and is successful than this, which is, you know, so muddled for all the reasons we've said.

01:23:39
Case
I mean, I would be happy to, like, we've had plenty of guests who have, like, carved out a niche on a. Just the fact that they happen to do a good Schwarzenegger impression or something like that. I'd be happy to be like,

01:23:50
Doug Lief
God damn it's already taken, but.

01:23:52
Case
I'd be happy to have you, like, carve out me and me in a Jones niche. So, like, yeah, like, I would say, let's take a look at it and see if it makes sense for the show because it's been a blast talking to you, and I feel like we're kind of circling around this movie. I think this movie was just, again, they were too safe. Spielberg is a dynamic director who has still done great work post this movie.

01:24:14
Case
This wasn't, like, after his prime, but, like, you know, it's a different vibe than when he was in his twenties and, like, working on all these things and, like, kind of like stressing himself out and doing all the craziness that goes into directing movies on the regular because he was, like, carving out a legacy that would be difficult to rival in terms of the pantheon of great directors. And Lucas has also done amazing stuff, but we know by this point he's already gotten to the prequels, which one of the problems of the prequels is that there isn't the pushback. It's a little too comfortable for the whole shoot.

01:24:44
Case
And, like, the spots where this movie kind of falls apart are the spots where it's clearly a little too comfortable, a little too safe, and wasn't going to fit what everyone's perspective of what the next Indiana Jones movie should be. It's hard to really say, but this wasn't it, I guess, is the big thing, and we kind of all agree at that. Like, it could have been better in a bunch of different ways, but it was fun to revisit this and I'm glad we had the chance to have this conversation. Doug, thank you for bringing this movie. This was a lot of fun to talk about. It was a lot of fun to re watch. There's have been a lot of think pieces about this movie because dial just came out. But while it's not great, it's. It's.

01:25:25
Case
It's very mediocre in a way that I find spots appealing and spots frustrating and could have been a lot worse. So. So, Doug, thank you. For people who want to find you, follow, you know, what you're working on, talk about yourself. Like, we. We kind of jumped into this movie because were all, like, chomping at the bit for it, as if were like some kind of machine that just devours trees in the Amazon. But where can people find your stuff? Like, what. What have you got going on? Why should people care about what you're doing and all that? Like, where are you? Who are. Are you?

01:25:58
Doug Lief
Well, first of all, again, thanks for having me on. This was a treat. It was really fun to go watch this movie again with the excuse to like, oh, I'm going to get to rip it apart. And this was just a lot of fun. So thank you. So, I'm the host of a show called Nostalgia Arcanum. I know I made it real easy to spell and find. Basically, we're a nostalgia show where we bring on people to talk about some piece of pop culture that they love from their childhood and the kind of thing that they just can't still shut up about 30 years later. And so we just get into it. What made it connect with them, what made it resonate and what's cool about it? Like, why is this something that people would still care about all these years later?

01:26:38
Doug Lief
So, if you're a fan of this show, of course, case was on a wonderful episode talking about Calvin and Hobbes.

01:26:42
Case
With me, and that was also podcast time is weird. I mean, we're currently on hiatus while we're recording this episode, actually, because of the SAG story strike, which at this point, the WGA, they've resolved. But SaG, I think, is still going, and I think video games just, like, issued their strike. So we're on hiatus. And actually, Doug, you're the first person we're talking to since went on hiatus. So that's actually an extra level of thank you, because we are dusting off some cobwebs, as people may have noticed.

01:27:11
Sam
Oh, yeah, we are. Just enough for Webster.

01:27:16
Doug Lief
And if you want to find it, of course, look for nostalgiam with an m, not nostalgia. Nostalgiam arcanum. You can find us on the socials. We're nostalgiampod on Twitter. We're at nostalgiampod on blue sky. We're also just nostalgia arcanum on threads and instagram. So those are the places you can find us out there. But otherwise, yeah, just at your local podcastery, that's where you'll find it.

01:27:40
Case
Excellent. Well, it was a ton of fun being on your show again, it's probably been a little while at the point where this episode is dropping versus when I was on, but talking about Calvin and Hobbes was just a blast because that was a really fun thing. And nostalgic works means something to people. And that's why, like, looking at some of these movies that are bad sequels and work with queer franchises, it means something to people. And I'm really glad to finally address this movie because Indiana Jones is kind of the sister series to Star wars, and that was kind of the impetus for the show in the first place. We started the show to talk about the prequels, so it's surprising that we haven't actually gotten here. So thank you again for coming on, bringing it. People should check out your show.

01:28:23
Case
It was a ton of fun to be on. It's. It's a blast. Plenty of the friends of the show have been on, so by all means, everyone should be checking out nostalgia. Markanum. Sam, where can people find you and follow you?

01:28:35
Sam
Nowhere. Because, you know, well, I mean, you can still find me at the discord, our discord that I check, like, maybe once a month. And then other than that, I'm really busy traipsing around trying to find treasure and, you know, avoiding snakes. So if you have any comments about anything I said or, you know, want to ask questions about the Incan Empire, you can find case at.

01:29:08
Case
Well, if I am not actively in another plane of existence, because it would be wonderful to make contact with an extra dimensional being, you can find me on the site formerly known as Twitter acsacon. You can find me on Bluesky Saiken. You can find me most places at Caseacon except for Instagram, because there I am, quetzalcoatl five, because I'm holding on for dear life for my screen name from high school. So, hey, aim, I loved you back in the day. And there's a little piece that's still going. Otherwise, you can find this show on Twitter at another pass.

01:29:40
Case
We don't have a bluesky up yet because I have all my logins I've been trying to give to other people because I would rather have, like, a lot of fun people up on blue sky rather than me trying to check multiple Twitter and multiple blue sky. And there's too many social media already for me. So hoping that's where the party settles. But for the moment, just amazing. But as Sam mentioned, the discord is a great place to find me and to find us. You can find a link@certainpov.com where you will find episodes of this show and other great shows. But again, come join the conversation after you check out all the cool stuff like nostalgia, Marcanum, or, you know, the myriad cool shows that we have on the network such as Jukebox, Vertigo, which is a really fun show.

01:30:22
Case
It's on hiatus at the moment because Josue is some busy stuff going on, but they're reformatting and working with things to just build out the cool Spotify playlists that they've been doing. And the backlog is evergreen and beautiful. So check out that show, then circle back to this show. We intend next time to be talking about a great movie. Sam I can't remember what do we actually have on the docket for next time?

01:30:45
Sam
Oh man, you're gonna love it. Next time we'll be talking about Highlander two. But until then, if you enjoyed this, pass it on.

01:30:55
Doug Lief
Thanks for listening to certain point of views.

01:30:57
Case
Another pass podcast. Don't miss an episode. Just subscribe and review the show on iTunes. Just go to certainpov.com.

01:31:07
Sam
Another pass is a certain pov production. Our hosts are Sam Alicea and case Aiken. The show is edited by Jeff Moonan. Our logo and episode art is by Case Aiken. Our intro theme is by Vin Macri and our outro theme is by Matt Brogan.

01:31:24
Case
I was recently on film Rescue actually to talk about Highlander two.

01:31:27
Sam
Really?

01:31:29
Case
That was wild because I was like, oh man. Hey, I've always joked about that. I would never come up with a solution. Here's my pitch, because like, film rescue is a similar kind of structure for the show. It was a wild conversation. People should check that out. Cpov certainpov.com.

AI meeting summary:

●      The meeting analyzed "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull" critically, expressing disappointment in its execution despite being franchise fans. Issues raised included lack of nostalgia, missed character relationship opportunities, poor handling of ancient alien themes, and underdeveloped characters like Cate Blanchett's portrayal. Specific critiques centered on lacking a clear central theme, inconsistent cinematography quality, and forced slapstick humor.

●      Positive aspects highlighted included nostalgic charm in scenes at Indy's school, authenticity in introducing new characters like Shia LaBeouf’s Mutt, and moments that captured the series’ spirit. Participants pressed for stronger storytelling, well-defined villains, and meaningful character development. Suggestions were made to incorporate mind control themes into a 1950s Red Scare context for coherence and relevance.

●      Proposals to revamp key plot points involving aliens while maintaining franchise consistency were discussed, along with suggestions for refining character dynamics among Indy, Mutt, and interactions with iconic figures like Henry Jones Sr. Emphasis was placed on avoiding forced resolutions and unnecessary fan service while focusing on organic developments. Despite acknowledging flaws, participants agreed on the potential for improvement by aligning narrative choices with core themes of adventure, mystery, and historical intrigue within an Indiana Jones framework.

Notes:

🚀 Discussion on Movie Opening

Importance of setting the table for storytelling

●      Need for a clear starting point for the narrative

●      Ensure understanding of the initial setup for later events

🎥 Relationship Dynamics in Movie

Focus on Indy and Mutt relationship

●      Clarify the nature of relationships for cohesion

🔍 Feedback on Movie Structure

●      Consider shortening the cold open

●      Maintain intrigue throughout the film for thematic consistency

🤝 Collaboration and Team Dynamics

Encouragement to lean into ideas

●      Positive feedback on academic dialogue and themes

📊 Planning for Future Episodes

●      Mention of discussing a great movie next time

●      Guidance to subscribe and review the show for updates

🎬 Engagement with Audience

●      Encouragement to find and follow the participants on social media

●      Mention of other related shows and platforms for further engagement

Action items:

Doug Leaf

●      Revisit Indiana Jones movie (01:42)

●      Share strong childhood memory of watching Last Crusade in 1989 with dad (03:41)

●      Introduce a plot where the crystal skull has mind control powers, influencing people's thoughts and actions tied into red scare themes (01:09)

●      Emphasize the crystal skull as an alien entity trying to return to its ship, creating an invasion of body snatchers type scenario for added cohesion and depth (01:14)

Sam Alisea

●      Reflect on love for history and archaeology sparked by Indiana Jones (05:19)

●      Discuss being triggered by the inaccuracies related to ancestors and history in the movie (06:33)

●      Express disappointment about incorporating Mayan language inaccurately in the film (10:14)

●      Share thoughts on relationships between characters, especially Marion and Indy's son Mutt (18:21)

Sam

●      Define the villain's motivation clearly with a speech or monologue (01:02)

●      Shorten action scenes to focus more on character development and relationships (01:03)

●      Mutually reveal that Mutt is Indiana Jones' son earlier in the movie for better relationship development (01:04)

Outline:

●      Chapter 1: Initial Analysis of "Uncharted" Movie (00:31 - 15:57)

●      00:31: Introduction to the discussion about the movie "Uncharted."

●      12:42: Comparison between the "Uncharted" video game series and the movie.

●      15:57: Lack of clear theme setting and storytelling issues discussed.

●      Chapter 2: Critique of Storytelling and Character Development (20:03 - 35:39)

●      20:03: Analysis of the introduction and character development in the movie.

●      27:34: Criticism of the dialogue and character interactions.

●      35:39: Importance of explaining sequences for better understanding.

●      Chapter 3: Evaluation of Plot Progression and Themes (41:07 - 59:54)

●      41:07: Positive aspects and challenges in the plot development.

●      47:54: Discussion on the lack of a defined timeline in the movie.

●      59:54: Importance of establishing a clear narrative for engaging storytelling.

●      Chapter 4: Character Relationships and Plot Cohesion (1:00:10 - 1:12:51)

●      1:00:10: Transition from discussing likes to addressing plot inconsistencies.

●      1:03:19: Emphasis on character relationships and development.

●      1:10:25: Focus on the relationship between the main characters for narrative coherence.

●      Chapter 5: Closing Remarks and Future Plans (1:25:14 - 1:31:44)

●      1:25:14: Reflection on the discussion and enjoyment of the conversation.

●      1:30:04: Announcement of future topics and plans for the show.

●      1:31:13: Acknowledgment of the show's team and themes for future episodes.