Confessions of a Dangerous Mind with Tod Hostetler and David Mohajer-Rahbari

George Clooney likes Sam Rockwell's butt and he cannot lie. That's right, we're watching butt-centric spy auto-biography Confessions of a Dangerous Mind with Tod and David from Spies Like Us Podcast! Check out their show at spieslikeus.net

And if you're joining us from their part 1 episode, you can skip to 57:34 to continue listening!

Starring Ash Blodgett, Bret Eagleston, Samantha Willson, and Pat Edwards

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Below is a rough automated transcript of the episode. We are working on making this better:

Pat: Ash Bot malfunction.

Bret: Hello and welcome to another episode of Let's Rewatch the show where we watch movies from our youth and find out if they're still any good I'm Bret.

Sam: I'm Sam.

Ash: I'm Ash.

Pat: And I'm Pat.

Bret: And you're drunk.

Sam: He's like three bottles of wine to get Pat drunk.

Bret: 1.

Pat: I know it does take you know.

Sam: The blood alcohol content is like well below. 5.

Bret: One bottle for each bicep.

Pat: Yeah.

Bret: I can see that that's like eight feet tall or whatever so.

Pat: I mean there's a there's like a viral picture of Look Look up what a can of beer look like in his hand it looks like a child's toy.

Sam: Yes absolutely.

Ash: Sam has one for her baby right now she's feeding it fear currently.

Sam: Please don't get CPS called on me.

Pat: Amazing Gotham introduced them but Bret Sam something looks different about you to you get haircuts.

Bret: Tilted up the camera at so that you can't see Sam's boobs out.

Ash: She always has them out when we podcast.

Pat: You have a tiny human.

Pat: Did you get that tiny human.

Sam: I grew it painstakingly.

Pat: There's a cool comic book series called farmhand that's about a guy who figured out how to grow body parts and then they can be like transplanted onto people.

Ash: So there's your next career Sam.

Pat: Like hands fingers organs that grow like plants and pluck the the left hand so I plan on people.

Bret: Is it it's at holsum in adorable or is it horrifying cuz it sounds horrifying.

Pat: No it's like it's like sci-fi horror comic it's good it's good cuz farmhand do very good very very good.

Pat: Oh yeah we got two great guest we have the host of the Spies Like Us podcast we got David and Todd hey fellas.

David: I think Robin is on or just excited for this.

Bret: Been emailing for like 2 months.

Pat: I know yeah I felt you guys get your patience is otherworldly with us he's just caught us at.

Pat: Bright I know.

Ash: I mean Sam rubly had to have a baby and just throw off the whole schedule.

Sam: I mean he did show up 10 days late so.

Tod: Congratulations.

David: Yeah congratulations.

Bret: Willie scapegoating all of our absences on the baby from here on out look forward to it.

Bret: At 2.

Tod: What did you roll for gender.

Bret: Where's the lookup table.

Tod: We're going to go with the Confessions of a dangerous mind which I know I know it has to do with the CIA assassin I don't really recall exactly how much of a spy movie it is but we do do you know we wander off the center of the path we don't we don't drive straight down the middle of the road when it comes to picking their movies so I thought it would be a good one because you know not a hundred percent sure that it's a whole lot of talk about so I think it's a good pick to run past a fun bunch of people like you guys.

Pat: Who here has seen this before I have not.

Ash: Who told you we were fun.

Pat: Yeah they're f****** Liars by the way yeah.

Tod: I listen I listen to your Muppet Muppet Christmas episode.

Ash: Oh okay.

Tod: I was I was a good one.

Sam: How do you like that song it finally got out of my head and now you've made me remember it so.

Bret: Ash's Dubstep Christmas.

Ash: I hate you so much.

Ash: Yes that's me.

Tod: Which which was the one they like owns of a VHS machine specifically to watch that one tape because it's the only version that has like you know one extra scene in it or something.

Ash: You have to leave the movie.

Pat: You can watch that scene on Disney plus you got to back out of the booth he gets skinny extras which I did.

Ash: Yes I am the purest.

Pat: I pause the movie back that we watched it watch the the song see the sad song and then went back and it resumed.

Bret: FX the thing people pitching VR Gaming to me they like you want to play games except it's way harder and there's more stuff that you have to physically wear no like I'm not going to back out of a movie while I'm watching it to watch a different part of the movie.

Pat: Not until it's just a contact I can put in my eye.

Sam: A brain implant he won't fuss with contacts he wants you to like shoot it into his brain to make them a bionic gaming.

Bret: You know what shoots images into my brain already put TV.

Sam: Chickadee say your eyes.

Pat: Are you don't control us on the TV with your brain.

Ash: You know what shoots images into your brain your eyes.

Sam: It's not wrong.

Ash: Those be the perfect tagline for an eye doctor images.

Sam: Is it our wedding vows.

Bret: This is a towel that was my number one thing when I was looking for a life partner or someone who's always technically correct.

Pat: David and Todd have you seen this before.

David: I have as well.

Tod: I have I think twice I think twice but it has been told it's been a good long time I would say I would say 10 years at least.

Pat: Okay which was 2002 which feels like so long.

Sam: Cuz it was it was almost 20 years ago Pat.

Pat: Oh God stop it I still feel like I have you guys seen this.

Bret: This one know which is surprising cuz I like I seen it was physically it places but I've never I never watched it.

Ash: You've had it projected into your brain by.

Pat: I feel like I've been aware of it forever like I'm aware that this was a movie that exist and had some ties to possibly be a reality but yeah let's get into it.

Ash: Possible reality what.

Tod: Well yeah yeah.

Pat: What's this that'll make sense or II that'll make sense in a second.

Ash: Play some listener we haven't podcast in awhile or an emu.

Pat: This was movie so yeah it was directed by it was actually the directorial debut of mr. George Clooney.

Pat: Yeah.

Bret: Interesting.

Ash: What really wow.

Pat: It is an adaptation of a book written by Chuck Barris who was a host of a lot of like 70s and 80s game shows like the gong show was one that he hosted.

Tod: He's a true impresario he created the dating game and the gong show I think there is two most famous ones but he's a he's a big name was big name in game shows in the 70s.

Pat: And then he wrote a book that was ostensibly biographical and it claimed to spoil this or not do I say this I mean.

Pat: Okay okay and then.

Tod: But don't spoil it don't spoil with the truth is we'll talk about that after but he called it an unauthorized autobiography.

Ash: Like Lemony Snicket or something.

Pat: So he wrote the book and is adapted for the screen by Charlie Kaufman who wrote the screenplay.

Bret: Interesting so we didn't so Charlie off and didn't write the movie he wrote the screenplay.

Tod: I do I do feel like we can spoil with the major claim that he makes in the book is I just didn't want to spoil whether or not it turns out to be true or not.

Pat: So he claimed in this book that this whole time that he was a very famous like hosting.

Pat: Television shows and game shows and creating a lot of travel right and a lot of access to places us normies can't go t claim in the book that during that whole time he was living he was also a paid he was a CIA assassin.

Sam: Wait that's who claimed.

Pat: Chuck Barris the guy who hosted The Gong Show when they created The Dating Game and was hosting the seventies and eighties like shows talk shows game shows.

Pat: Wrote a book that he claimed during that whole time he was doing assassinations for the CIA.

Ash: You know what I'm also a firefighter I just haven't told anyone about it.

Sam: I agree with Ash.

Bret: That totally fits what my like mental Cannon is for the personality of a game show host.

Sam: Self inflated ego.

Bret: Like how do you how do you Pat Sajak likes the letter and then like not go home and kill people like.

Ash: Fargo home and yeah turn into what was that horror movie where the dude just murders a bunch of women I forgot.

Sam: Every horror movie.

Ash: Yes well specifically American Psycho.

Pat: Also also every horror movie yeah so I'm going to read some of those so I kind of knew that was the promise I've never seen a movie but I knew that is that so that's news to the rest of you that's.

Tod: I wanted I wanted to say that I knew that that that was the premise but being with the script is written by Charlie Kaufman my first thought was that you know he had just taken Chuck Barris has autobiography and written the script that added in the supply of him being a CIA assassin because that seems like that kind of mix of like.

Ash: Hollywood and.

Tod: Reality and unreality and identity is like so like up Kaufman's Ali.

Tod: But it was only after it's in the movie that I was really surprised that no this guy actually did write this book where he claimed that he was working for the CIA.

Sam: I'm pretty sure if you actually were an assassin for the CIA you would not come out and write a book and like release your identity.

Pat: Stuff gets out there.

Ash: There are other people who have done that though like there's this guy who wrote like a whole book on like how to read body language and stuff who used to be like a CIA interrogator whatever.

Sam: Difference in a CIA assassin.

Bret: I mean sure but like just imagine like not every person can be like I know I'm working for the government doing important things like some people are like f*** you out of work for the CIA I can't wait to tell everyone.

Pat: I mean honestly on the scale of things that I think they've done or tried a game show host being an operative I'd is not that far off I mean look up a project MKUltra and doing weird weird stuff.

Tod: There is there's a short.

David: It was all under Allen Dulles that and he he was like known we could use the DCI at the time or I guess it was called the directive he did all kinds of crazy stuff he was known for like being really creative and trying to do like he loved it like he's probably one of the many people that like really really loved his job and it was always trying to do like we're died extraordinary operation so the whole MKUltra thing with the LSD in the prostitutes is like like one of many of his like eyeball I kind of ideas.

Ash: Wait so what was.

Tod: It was a very Creek there was there was a period for the CIA where they were getting very creative but there's there's a list of covers that the CIA supposedly will never use to my knowledge game show host is not on that list.

Bret: I like the thought of somebody working in the CIA back then and just being like I'll wait with her just they're giving out money for any project oh man I bet LSD gives you mind powers.

Tod: I think I think didn't didn't Clooney Clooney was involved in in the men that's Who Stare at Goats as well I think.

David: He directed that yeah and I think he was the star.

Bret: I think he's trying to tell us something.

Ash: Could you imagine being murdered by Alex Trebek so where you're like oh my God Alex Trebek.

Pat: Right I mean it's kind of woodwind.

David: You did not answer in the form of a question thing.

Ash: No they're not.

Pat: I mean it's kind of Genius cuz if you survived the assassination attempt and you go and report it they're not going to f****** believe you tried to kill me it was like okay weirdo like get out of here.

Tod: The best the best episode ever of the X-Files someone's recounting a story about being visited by two men in black and and we're seeing the story play out that he's telling and the two men in black show up and it's their played by Alex Trebek and Jesse Ventura and at that point the interrogator stop Simon says wait wait wait did you say Alex Trebek no I didn't I didn't say it was Alex Trebek I said it looked like Alex Trebek but then they kept back to the back to the story and you're like no that is Alex Trebek.

Pat: As far as the Charlie Kaufman asking us gov this I don't know because I got a little trivia fact or hear that usually credited as the screenwriter.

Pat: Doing the screenplay Kaufman felt dissatisfied with the way George Clooney treated his script he commented I spend a lot of time working on the script but Clooney wasn't interested in the things I was interested in I've moved on and have no animosity towards him but it's a film I don't really relate to.

David: Wow I need some head.

Tod: Aaron Kaufman is one of those scriptwriters that hangs out like and wants to be involved during the entire process he's not the kind of just dropped it off and goes home.

David: Yes right.

Ash: I mean isn't that what adaptation is like all about right.

Sam: I was going to say it I can't imagine him having a hard time relating to the script in the story like it's just so relatable it's it's every man stew.

Pat: Against Clooney acknowledges he made changes because there were quote funky scenes that would never have gotten the green light for a studio movie.

David: Yeah right.

Ash: Again that's like every Charlie Kaufman movie Style.

Tod: Where does where does this fit where does this fit in the in the Kaufman catalog.

Ash: I was wondering that too like is this early on.

Pat: Like timeline.

Tod: Restart we start with Mal we start with Malkovich we know that.

Ash: I really Malkovich was before this.

Tod: Which is the first script that he sold.

Pat: The rider.

Ash: Yes.

Sam: Being John Malkovich is Charlie Kaufman.

Pat: Yeah I was just first you doing TV stuff that was his first like feature written humanature at.

Ash: Oh my God.

David: Pretty good pretty good episode of moral Orel.

Bret: Yeah I saw that one.

David: I'm not surprised but I mean.

Pat: She's right on the Dana Carvey Show yeah I got lots of trivia but a lot of it is a post wash stuff this of course the CIA has denied the Chuck Barris ever work for them.

David: Of course they would.

Pat: Big f****** surprise that right like it but this one time we're going to be sure before y'all start Sam Rockwell as Chuck Barris.

Ash: Yes.

Pat: A lot of names.

Ash: Is it really.

Tod: This is this is this is Rockwell's breakout role as well and Clooney Clooney Clooney was the one that wanted him specifically this script actually went through a lot of hands before it got made and I don't think I made a list but Pat did you notice like the list of names of people that had been considered.

Pat: Yeah there weren't so so it's.

Tod: It is a funky ass list.

Pat: It's huge and also you're right the Clooney was like Clooney would like Rockwell or nobody.

Tod: Yeah yeah yeah.

Tod: Good good.

Pat: What is a colony.

Ash: Khalouni I like it can we call him that from now on I like it.

David: Uni.

Sam: It sounds like a drink.

Tod: Get on him cuz yeah cuz we need Rockwell.

Pat: Kuni woodlakes Rockwell or nobody but there were a lot of other people the studio or other people that had it in their hands I'm looking for it I had it here.

Tod: Richard Dreyfuss is on the list I think.

Ash: Wait to play the same role.

David: Yes.

Tod: Yeah yeah and and I think two likes some some weird I think maybe like Russell Crowe like the names make no sense.

Pat: Russell Crowe Ed Norton Kevin Spacey Ed Norton.

Ash: So white guy with the white guys.

David: I actually didn't know who Rockwell was when this when I'd seen it and then years later when like I figured out Rockwell is like like one of the most amazing actors of all time I went through his IMDb tavakoli kid he was that guy.

Tod: It's just like in what Universe are Richard Dreyfuss and Russell Crowe ever like up for the same role.

Bret: They I mean I guess they all have like a certain like.

Ash: Look yeah.

Bret: Like you could be any white dude face at like and we know who they are cuz they're famous actors but like.

Pat: I mean at this point nothing it's still at the worst or very reasonable so we did David and Todd still has the most crazy batshit like you're considering this person and this person like how like is weeded Commando yes the Arnold Schwarzenegger Commando and it one point Nick Nolte was considered for the role.

Tod: I would say I would totally take that.

Pat: Yes for Commando.

David: That part was made for just like muscle-bound Schwarzenegger.

Pat: Write I would love to see the the close-up of his torso his ripped or so with the Gatling gun but it's Northeast torso.

Pat: So also Drew Barrymore is in this Michael Cera is in this.

Ash: What's Michael Cera.

Sam: What what.

Tod: Michael Michael Cera.

Tod: I did not remember that.

Pat: Who plays young Chuck the young Sam Rockwell.

Pat: Maggie Gyllenhaal is in this Brad Pitt and Matt Damon have cameos.

Pat: Julia Roberts is in this.

Bret: It feels like this feels like a George Clooney like knows a lot of people kind of cast list.

Ash: George Clooney in Friends.

Pat: Oh yes so.

David: That's all of George Clooney's movies it's always like here's the Posse.

Pat: Don't know you brought you are very correct because Julia Roberts and Drew Barrymore works for scale at 2250 thousand dollars is a favor to George and Brad Pitt and Matt Damon did cameos for free.

Tod: Right it's like you don't hate guys George is making his first movie Let's show up.

Sam: I would show up for George Clooney.

Ash: I mean I would show up for $250 0.

Ash: The favor.

Bret: As a favor I will do this for 200.

Pat: Yeah I mean can you believe the just the generosity of them Julia Roberts was on set for an adverse effect she was on set for 6 days for her role.

Sam: Oh wow she.

Pat: I mean I work for 6 days for $250 0.

Ash: I love how the women got the money out of the deal in the men were like he'll do it as a favor.

Pat: For them.

Sam: That's funny also don't forget that it's 2002 s $250 0.

Sam: So by today's money.

Bret: 4 million dollars today.

Sam: Dogecoin.

Ash: In Bitcoin Dogecoin.

Tod: I called this movie the 1st the beginning of the record our Reclamation project this this is the first of of his last few roles that he did in his life where I thought you know and he has been relegated to direct-to-video for a very long time but he shows up in a small role in this movie and then he shows up again in Sin City and also in Chris Nolan's Batman and I was really happy to see him get some actual you know acting opportunities at the end or all of them.

Bret: I'll look out for that.

Bret: When when did he stop being Mega Powers Hollywood.

Tod: I don't think he was ever mega-power Hollywood you know like he has he has an enormous amount of movies that are I guess you know kind of low-budget sci-fi direct-to-video kind of stuff seems to be the majority of his career after Blade Runner.

Pat: He will always hate improv one of my top like five favorite moments Cinema moments of all time so he gets.

Bret: Yeah I guess it's.

Pat: Improv that Blade Runner like.

Pat: At the end when he died.

Bret: Yeah there's there's a few actors who I guess we've had that thing with or just like what do you mean they're not hugely famous oh I guess it's just the one saying.

Tod: Will yet Blade Runner So Weird movie where like almost everyone in it is kind of acting at or maybe it's just the way it's edited or written but there's a lot of actors in there that are punching way above their normal weight in the way that the final product comes out.

Tod: I would say that applies to Daryl Hannah Rutger Hauer Sean Young And also the weird guy with the.

Pat: Toymaker whatever guy.

Tod: What disease or whatever that the only other thing I have the only thing I ever saw him other than that was in that the Newhart Show.

Pat: Isn't dead why he was in Deadwood as a banker is a decent leave main character.

Ash: It goes to show what directed could directing can do to you know like.

Pat: You would say that you professional director you.

Ash: I'm just saying like I've seen movies with actors that I'm like I know that these are good actors.

Pat: Sam Ash I think the key is the writing that shows what they're writing.

Ash: Oh okay yeah.

Sam: Obviously it's the special effects.

Pat: So this movie is was well-received by critics Rodger Ebert liked it it's got like 790f Rotten Tomatoes is Galaxy 7 or 10 and IMDb.

Pat: Positive but I want to go into the money game.

Pat: So what do we think the thing cost to make.

Ash: Considering it got passed around then it went through it.

Sam: I'm going to guess pretty cheap because.

Sam: Everyone was working for free.

Sam: I'm going to guess.

Sam: 17 million.

Ash: That's very low.

Bret: That feels low I feel like the basement stair like George you can make a movie sure and they gave him like 35.

Ash: I'm guessing 40 before anyone else.

Pat: David Todd.

Ash: Sorry guess I guess we'll let you go last Castle.

David: I like the idea that they just handed him some cash so I would say maybe 30 or 35 sounds good to me.

Pat: 3535.

David: 0. 354166666666667.

Bret: There's a lot of us here today.

Tod: If you got a price is right it goes 3499.

Ash: 36.

Ash: There you go.

David: 30 for 30.

Tod: Her know I'll Price is Right it because I have no freaking clue so I'll go 3499 you stick with your you stick with your 30.

David: 30 by 30.

Pat: Because you are on the nose 30 million dollars.

David: Oh yeah.

David: Stab in the dark.

Tod: I always I always found it difficult to find a movie budget so I thought they're usually not.

Ash: It's on IMDb or.

Sam: It's always.

Bret: Box Office Mojo.

Ash: Box Office Mojo.

Pat: Box Office Mojo Box Office Mojo is a good website farm so let's just talk how do you think it did we got the USA and worldwide.

Sam: When did it release in the year.

Pat: When in the year to the Google.

Ash: Make you do the hosting.

Bret: I don't need Google for this Charlie Kaufman right rights movies that people don't like until later so.

Tod: It feels like an April movie to me.

Ash: It's ever 31st.

Pat: December December 31st of 2000 it's only technically an O2 movie it was.

Ash: Listed in the well then I'm not predicting.

Pat: What a date.

Sam: It's not the it's not to the February where movies go to dive but.

Ash: Who the f*** on New Year's Eve is going to go see a movie.

Sam: A lot of people actually.

Tod: The other two thousand two movies and saying like and and maybe they knew what was coming in 2003 in there like you know if we're going to have any shot at the Oscar this is got to be in 2002 so let's just make it happen let's just make it happen.

Bret: This made like 22 domestic like good make its money back domestically but then like worldwide it was in the high 60s maybe 6068 2268.

Ash: Are we talking opening weekend or.

Pat: DelGrosso us and cumulative worldwide.

David: Domestic I don't think I'm pretty sure I remember when it came out I didn't even know about it so my mother and I visited the ancient ruins of Blockbuster and picked it up so I'm pretty sure probably did not do well so I'm just going to say 10.

Sam: I'm going to guess 68000 total worldwide.

Ash: I was going to say 60 000 worldwide.

Tod: I was quickly losing track of what are we guessing here.

Ash: Sorry million 60000 I'm lower volume even more exactly.

Tod: I'll pass but I do I do I really have to ask Blake does this include the advertising budget.

Tod: Okay okay okay.

Pat: It's the numbers that are on Box Office Mojo.

Sam: And they're all projected numbers because you are correct Studios don't actually release their production budget but.

Pat: It didn't come with a balance sheet.

Bret: My thought is weird time of year it came out at a time when the whole thing about like giving your movie and descriptive name was like didn't return it with you no like it has a has a long name and it's written by Charlie Kaufman which is the he's got fans but they they rent his movies.

Bret: So that's it might. My gas if I'm if I'm right then that's why I and if I'm wrong tonight I want to know what happen.

Ash: What was your guess.

Ash: Oh that's right.

Bret: They didn't make their money back domestically and them and it was like maybe 65-68 worldwide.

Pat: Yeah ruff-ruff go only made 16 million us.

Ash: David was closest.

Pat: And it barely barely turned a profit 33 million cumulative worldwide.

Bret: Yeah I was.

Ash: 33.

Bret: A person I thought.

Ash: And they still let George Clooney direct more films.

Pat: Is George Clooney Joker how his career must have just died after that.

Sam: It's all Kaufmann's fault right like you can skate go anybody in Hollywood.

Bret: They said it made $3000000 but like you'll just having like George Clooney here got always involved.

Tod: Yeah exactly yeah I didn't appreciate the the feeling it left me with.

Sam: Yeah so I'm hoping.

Ash: I like feeling icky.

Sam: Yeah so I'm hoping I like this it's a really fun concept and I actually really like George Clooney as a director so I'm going in with optimism but trepidation.

Sam: That's all I don't know anything else about it.

Ash: It's not your turn yet but.

Ash: Really.

Bret: I was just here to a backup Sam's comments about I also do not like Charlie Kaufman but that's fine we'll see we'll see how it goes I've I've complained about this on the show before it's specific saying that's not Charlie Kaufman specific but it's when you can feel how clever the writer thinks they're being at the moment and a lot of his movies have that like I would I love Eternal Sunshine and it's it's a movie I like because I saw it at an impressionable time but I don't think I'd like it if I saw it for the first time today and I like I would like it if I watched it right now but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like it if I watched it for the first time right now but he didn't like he didn't write this movie cuz it's you know it's a bit based on a book with stories or someone else made up so that we know of.

Ash: He did write the movie.

Sam: Taking a stance right there are we.

Bret: You didn't write the story he wrote How The Story Goes On the screen you know.

Sam: I agree I meant to made up part where you said.

Bret: So so that's a big? Like is the thing that I wouldn't like about Charlie Kaufman even in this maybe not the other thing George Clooney like his movies at whether he's in them or directing them are really hit and miss because that sometimes it's like a cool movie with an All-Star cap and sometimes it's just like a f*** around with an All-Star cast and so I don't know what we're getting here.

Sam: Yes.

Ash: Oh there you go yeah perfect.

Tod: Take the formula of the enemy of my enemy is my friend and apply it to you don't like Charlie Kaufman Charlie Kaufman didn't like this film ergo.

Pat: How many variables.

Bret: Yeah yeah and so that's it's a real big? And that's unusual for me going into a movie is I feel like I have a strong stance on if I'm going to like it or not going in but there's too many like mixed up factors with this one so I'm genuinely curious yeah.

Tod: Can I throw another ball in the mix here you know go to on that but just quickly like do we like the Coen brothers or do not like the Coen Brothers cuz they can be divisive.

Bret: General yes.

Pat: For the most part.

Tod: Keep in mind this is something I did catch in a review keep in mind that Oh Brother Where Art Thou was mm so that was the most recent the most recent film that Clooney acted in that kind of inspired him to say I want a direct was working with the Coen brothers so that's going to be something to look out for of you know whether or not we see him trying to like kind of Cohen this out.

Pat: That's my favorite Coen Brothers movie 2.

Bret: So this movie is going to be like really dry comedy and super f***** up stuff.

David: Absolutely my favorite color.

Ash: We already know it's super f***** up like he's going to go assassinate people like I'm kind of see that's the thing that concerns me I think is so I haven't seen this movie at all I think I've only ever heard the name of the film I've literally knew nothing about it and didn't know there was a Charlie Kaufman movie I didn't know all these people were in it I didn't know George Clooney directed it and I didn't know the plot but now that I know the plot I'm concerned that this movie isn't going to hold up for gun reasons.

Ash: Like so like last night my boyfriend I watch nobody which is a brand new movie.

Ash: It was good I would be very interested to hear your guyses opinion I feel like it has the same problem that Boondock Saints has where I was like.

Ash: This dude is murdering people because he wants to murder people because he enjoys it and it is celebrated and they are having a f****** good time doing it and that's the line that's like cross where I'm like this doesn't feel good.

David: Yeah.

Bret: Trailer gave off those vibes 2 is like a mediocre white man has a hat enough and like boy that's certainly not a reality that I live in.

Bret: Yeah yeah yeah.

Pat: I mean they're going to Hollywood going to make that movie every year right we got Joker you know last year.

Ash: But like the Joker's the bad guy in this movie he's the good guy and it's kind of gross.

Ash: No I still have it.

Pat: In his in that movie though it did you see Joker Joaquin Alki.

Bret: He was kind of the good guy in.

Pat: I mean in his mighty was.

David: The movie was more about mental health in about celebrating murder in like when the the social programs were shut down and he wasn't getting his meds as when he kind of started going off the rock. I think I was more commentary more than those films we get every year where it's like one man down.

Ash: Yeah but here's the thing those movies that you guys you guys are talking about this is different than those movies so like in my opinion John Wick and this movie have completely different Vibes because in John Wick he is going out for Revenge he doesn't want to have to engage but he has to because these people are coming after him you know or in other other situations it's like will people are like you know going to kill their family that's not the situation in this movie okay like.

Bret: Is that not the most American morality that its mass murders okay if its 2 Avenger dog.

Ash: Which is still problematic but I'm just saying in this movie it's not a situation where somebody came after him and he felt the need to like defend his family but they're there is a scene kind of like that but the way it plays out like he's smart enough to know that it's not a situation where he needed to do something and then he then goes out and pokes pokes the bear basically for lack of a better description.

Tod: It's it's it's what I call revenge p***.

Tod: Which which I really don't like.

Ash: But there's nothing to Revenge that's what I'm saying.

Pat: Is it more like.

Bret: Come on bear fight me you son-of-a-b**** fight me bear.

Pat: Is it more like just like is it one of those.

Ash: That's what I'm saying though there's he's literally nothing he's not he's not revenging anything he goes out and he f**** with people that he shouldn't affect with because he just wants to f*** with people.

Pat: Is it a is it a I'm tired of the things that are wrong with Society so I'm going to get rid of them by killing them it's not even that.

Ash: No it's literally I just haven't f***** anyone up it's so long I really want to do that.

Bret: It's a it's an edgelord movie is what it is.

David: Wow.

Ash: And it's a really really and then at the end it shows you know like him shooting people and he's having the time of his life and I was just like this is really not okay.

Sam: We're reviewing this other movie is this.

Bret: But I get where she's coming from on it.

Ash: Look up point I'm making is the point I'm making is I'm concerned.

Tod: We could all we could all go watch that movie instead.

Ash: The point of making as I'm concerned considering like everything you've said about how it's some game show guy who clearly was fantasizing about this other life that he wasn't living I'm concerned that that is the same tone that this movie is going to have that it's like murdering people for fun and enjoyment and not for like moral reasons you know what I mean.

Tod: You're worried that it's going to be a misanthropic film.

David: You're trying to stand like oh this poor guy bored of his game show life has to go kill people I see what you mean yeah.

Tod: Right right right.

Ash: Exactly yeah it's it's like fantasy know at the same thing you were talking about earlier Todd where you're like this there's a scene where he gets the inspiration for the gong show because he's fantasizing about shooting someone who's talking too long like I'm really concerned this movie is not going to hold up because it's going to have s*** like that where it's like whoa this went too far and then there's really no like pretend more or there's not even a dead dog to make this okay.

Bret: I am yours I totally get that and I feel like the thing that backs it up even more is that I don't know that was a kid when this came out basically and but it seemed like there was a time when the CIA was.

Ash: Yeah.

Bret: Not as publicly just straight-up evil as we perceive it to be these days and that time was back then and like it's even if it doesn't come across in the way that you've described I think they'll come across in the way of like CIA really probably shouldn't be sending people around the world to kill people randomly either so this is all good points about the potential problematic elements of this film a very curious about what's going to happen here.

Ash: Pat is dying.

Pat: No I'm just that Google ads Lord and then the phrase edging Lord came into my house.

Pat: Weight is an edging Lord by scooby opposite upset you but is trying to make you feel pretty good not too good.

Ash: Forever.

Ash: I'm glad that's what you took out of my thoughtful.

Bret: It's if you haven't watched too much of our D&D game it says anytime anyone says anything with Edge in it Pat just dies.

David: What can happen allowed to D&D game.

Pat: I mean yeah we fall face first into innuendo too often on that show.

Bret: I didn't say anyting.

Pat: I mean the the clip or yadav amp and talk about what constitutes a hotdog should be in the should be enshrined.

Bret: I'll cut that one out they'll tack it onto the show at the end.

Tod: I'll predict that I'm going to be fairly down the middle like maybe like a 6 out of 10 and I'm just going to base.

Ash: You brought this movie and you're not mad.

Pat: How dare you.

Tod: I melt.

Tod: I know but but you wanted you to know I think you're ruled it I heard was like something you haven't seen in 10 years and since I know since and I'm just logic getting this out a bit even though like I know that I'm going to enjoy the cast I know that I know I'm going to love Rockwell but logic in it out if I saw it in theaters in 2002.

Tod: Didn't feel the need to come back to it again until sometime around 2010 you know is when I think I watched it again on video and then it hasn't really like crossed my mind or been thought about by me in the.

Ash: What you did wash it again.

Tod: That's true that's true.

Tod: So maybe this is a movie that I would like mate is possible this is movie that I would like to see about every 10 years or so.

Tod: But that's what that's where I logic get out to like I'm probably going to be like a six or a seven like clearly I liked it enough to come back to it but clearly I don't love it enough to buy the DVD.

Bret: Do a solid 6.

David: I think I'm on board with Todd here that I take the cast is going to make me really excited I do enjoy dark humor but I don't remember thinking it was like the funniest thing I've ever seen so but I think I'm more going to be excited to go back in 1C Sam Rockwell again cuz I said when I first seen it he wasn't Sam Rockwell then so going back and being the witness like the beginnings of like such an amazing out there I think that's so I don't know if I can give a rating number on it right now but I'm excited to go back and watch these actors play these parts again this is what I'm looking for.

Tod: I have a feeling I have a feeling David and I are going to really respond very similarly to this film.

Tod: As opposed to some films I could look at and say like oh I'm going to love this one and Dave's going to hate it you know there are films like that but I think this one is going to be knowing Dave's tastes in film as well as I do I think no matter what happens he and I are probably going to come out the other end of the tunnel you know agreeing info with each other.

Pat: I mean the.

Ash: Holding hands just really.

Tod: I was I was going to say holding hands but I wanted to let you have the honor.

Ash: Thank you I appreciate it.

Bret: Alright well we're going to pause a recording here and go watch Confessions of a dangerous mind and we'll see you when we get back.

Ash: Get a hammer what is it it's like the hammer song right.

Ash: If I Had a Hammer I don't know I've never even heard of the song before and they made it seem like a big f****** deal no.

Pat: Palisades Park from the 50s.

David: I've never heard If I Had a Hammer American folk song or something.

Bret: Is it a folk song.

Ash: Is it a folk song If Chuck Barris wrote it.

Tod: Oh yeah yeah yeah absolutely absolutely.

Sam: It's like this land is your land like in that Realm.

David: Yeah yes like like that.

Ash: It wasn't the song that he wrote I assumed it was the song that he wrote the whole time.

Tod: It's the first joke I remember from Ellen DeGeneres back when she was a stand-up she said you know that song If I Had a Hammer I'd hammer in the evening and she's like you know and I went and got a hammer and you know I found out like.

Bret: I think it's a metaphor.

Sam: I think it's a metaphor for his dick.

Tod: We're back.

David: We're back and we're back.

Pat: Everything is.

Tod: Take control.

Sam: Yeah true.

Pat: Everything is a metaphor.

Tod: Getting here.

Bret: And that's a wrap.

Ash: And now she has a TV show just Hammer jokes guys Hammer Time.

Bret: Summertime that's a good name for like a variety for intro.

Sam: I see what you did there.

Bret: 60.

Ash: Okay okay before we before we get too deep into it I was not expecting oh man I really did it but wow I did I was not expecting Rusty venture to show up in this film.

Bret: Okay Ness.

Pat: Call James urbaniak.

Tod: Lose that weight I mean I know the character but.

Ash: Yeah the voice of Rusty venture.

Pat: The guy who came and told him his shows are getting cancelled that's James urbaniak.

Sam: Who is Rusty venture.

Ash: What show was canceled that's Rusty Venture from The Venture Brothers.

Pat: Doctor's visit Doctor venture.

David: From The Venture Brothers.

Bret: Venture Brothers a show that Sam hasn't watched a lot of.

Sam: I didn't know whose name is Rusty.

David: I got it.

Ash: Twin over real well thank you thank you David.

Bret: We've got that immortalized forever in audio thread of the masses Ash you're going to be famous for that one you wish.

Ash: You know what it was better than a f****** Hammer joke okay.

Pat: Oh s*** that's what we should have done is it MC Hammer song.

Tod: As far as someone just showing up for one scene I'm not sure if the FCC guy is that the same guy I'm thinking of from Scrubs but Rick.

Pat: No dr. Cox.

Ash: I don't think it was but I see what you're.

Bret: Allison John McGinley.

Pat: No. John C McGinley but I've seen that dude and stuff.

Tod: Very similar though.

Ash: I can see those yeah I can see the comparison for sure.

Tod: I want to I really want to go on record saying like that might be like one of my favorite 30 seconds of acting.

David: It was unbelievable we watched it twice.

Tod: Ever of comedic acting like the micro Expressions I made Dave rewind it and we watched it three times yeah.

Tod: There is so much going on on that man's face.

Tod: It was it was a real tree.

Bret: Yeah it was like somebody didn't tell him what movie he was in.

Ash: Yeah right he thought he was in with full metal jacket or something.

Ash: Yes it did this.

Bret: Yeah.

Tod: What does ASL Canada Coen Brothers thing where you bring in some f****** like person that like logically fits the narrative but is so goddamn weird to see on screen to focus on but everything they're doing is actually like you know like perfectly logically fits the narrative they're not just like dropped into just be a weirdo they're just really zooming in on a very weird aspect of.

Ash: Right yeah.

Tod: Human life.

Bret: I wanted I wanted to see more of it.

Tod: No just no just that one that one that one 30 seconds just give him that he must have worked so hard of the pay for this.

Ash: Excuses.

Tod: I mean I hope unless unless that's how I used in real life.

Bret: I did laugh out loud though at the reveal of who the the secret spy was.

Tod: I knew you would I teach that in the free thing right that was great.

Pat: Yes.

Bret: I said goddamn.

Ash: All rights the dude.

Pat: I'd forgotten about it was watching the movie ad forgotten he said that Todd and then and then it happened.

Bret: Although I do feel like there's a missing scene in there that I would have appreciated which is the the flashback Montage of whatever horrific murders he was doing while they were over there you know.

Ash: Yes and so the girl was in on it too like the dating wow.

Ash: Yeah.

David: Yeah yeah that's the best parts could you see her first and then he's like oh my God.

Ash: Yeah so great.

Tod: Another kiss and they're kissing which in our show we like to flag like good and bad tradecraft and even though like this element like it's very Fantastical and Beggars belief but we're both going to give mass of 5 Points to if you if you can accept that they were KGB infiltrators than their performance as people that did not know each other and did not like each other was absolutely brilliant.

Tod: Tradecraft perspective.

Ash: I do love that shot of like you have Matt Damon and f****** Brad Pitt and they're like I can't believe she keeps picking this one do.

Tod: Even the more hilarious answers are so f****** good.

Ash: I was so I was like what is happening.

Ash: Exactly.

David: The best part 2 of all of that like Abby has she picked him even though he had like the worst dancers like the rewards were like.

Ash: Oh man I'm okay I'm curious have any of you actually seen the The Dating Game or the was it the Newlywed Show.

Bret: I seen the dating game and the Newlywed shall yeah.

Ash: Me too.

David: What's up the other one in the 80s when I was like really young but love connection I think is what it was called which was similar.

David: Yeah but I don't think I've ever seen the dating game.

Tod: I was born I think I'm the oldest person here I was born in 71 so I remember seeing.

Ash: Wow get out of here man.

Tod: All right which would you believe 72.

Tod: I remember I remember seeing these shows you know in my childhood but they didn't they had no interest to me you know like.

Pat: I feel like.

Ash: Yeah I don't know why I've seen both of them and I feel like I remembers watching the multiple times were they on like Nick at night or something okay.

Ash: And parodied and yeah.

Pat: But also think they're their there such significant cultural touchstones that I don't think I've ever liked watching episode but I'm very aware of like the structure the tropes the references of it because it is something that has been a reference and you've seen clips of it or stings parroting it or lampooning it.

Pat: So often or the past 40 years.

Tod: These shows are so.

Tod: Actually like deeply weird and and shocking I mean they're kind of like.

David: Yeah.

Tod: Right yeah yeah.

Ash: Especially the Newlywed Show like if you haven't like that was only like a super small taste of it but like they would I was explaining to my boyfriend cuz he never seen it either I was like it's this show where they literally take people who have just gotten married and they asked either one like all these questions about themselves in private like away from the other one and then they stick them together and ask them like what's what's so-and-so's favorite color and the other person has to get it right and it's so shocking like you watch the show and literally like most of the time they get the answers wrong and you can see these people's newly-formed marriage dissolving on TV it's crazy.

Tod: But like the shows the shows are kind of kind of misanthropic they're kind of their they're not feel good shows and I think that's why they're they like resonate harder through the you know his store is fear of the internet and become tropes is because they were so weird like who you know how many jokes have you heard about like you know what the $40 000 pyramid or whatever like none but like dating game and Gong Show and newlyweds game those are like Rich fodder for comedy for going back Andre investigating and and retooling into.

David: That was a really big thing with those is how much those shows were kind of decorated or degrading like Humanity because it's like like you're not really showing the darkness of humanity you literally creating Darkness through like this weird awkward moments on it like like I I really like how they played that in with the story as well as the parallel of The Secret Life of the Assassin.

Tod: I'm really curious to hear with the with the crew with the let's re-watch crew thinks about like how you know did that work for you like these kind of free Jerry Springer.

Tod: You know making humans look stupid and and and foolish and flawed kind of thing did that work did that work for you in the.

Bret: That's very much a viewership of those shows is like a measurement of how many bitter people there are in the country at any given time like The Newlywed Show and particulate even when I was younger it was like.

Ash: Yeah.

Bret: I don't think they like weddings very much I don't think they like this this whole thing cuz it's very much I like why did you get married idiot the show you know.

Ash: Exactly exactly.

Tod: Yeah but but but Bret I felt like like in the late scene in the movie when they when they're playing you know if I Had a Hammer For Real.

Tod: Notice earlier in the movie that's moved it and then later there there you know. Rooting fully involved like heart felt like this is the song.

Ash: Deep-throating it.

David: Deep-throating the Hammers.

David: What sign is starting from in all right.

Tod: But I thought I thought that was maybe like supposed to show the disconnect between his audience himself and his audience I think the audience is really not all that bad like they're just here to enjoy themselves they're just here for a quick little laugh they're not here they're not they're not exactly by their buying what he's selling but not on the same level.

Tod: I think it's what they were trying to say in that scene.

Bret: I feel like that's that's a whole philosophical discussion about that the entire genre of reality TV that there's I'm certain there's a hard Line in the Sand for both people.

Ash: I was going to say like this this in comparison to a reality TV today this feels incredibly tame this does not feel like like all these articles being like he's a Scourge on the entertainment and and and they were like making it into this big saying and I'm just like Flash Forward today where you have sucking Jersey Shore which I think it's way worse.

Pat: What does exist but what does exist is.

Ash: Oh no oh no stop suck.

Pat: So you're actually right Ash it's a travesty with input on TV Tuesdays like floribama Shore which at last night of us recording this Amy's cousin or cousin came to visit the house in Montana and guess said he wouldn't sleep with her and they think he's to work and he did it anyway what a dick.

Sam: Bastard.

Ash: Oh my God oh my God this is what I'm talking about.

Sam: I thought you were going to say Married at First Sight which is a real show.

Pat: Floribama Shore is my wife and I was like Joint Trash reality TV show when we both enjoyed a lot it's so bad.

David: Yeah sorry.

Ash: I will say as someone who like has worked in reality TV and steaks and.

Pat: Is not real.

Ash: Well I can go in that rant again but I I did find what was super interesting was like seeing behind the scenes the process of like him coming up with a show and like pitching a show and developing a show because I've seen that you know like I've seen I've worked on reality TV show while the director producer were like coming up with a new show idea and like trying to pitch it and everything and it's like and they were telling me about like pitching to like Discovery and all this s*** and so it was like really interesting to see like the behind the scenes of that but like.

Ash: I think my problematic concern from the beginning was like spot-on and like weirdly intertwined how like he would have these really f***** up like visions of shooting this woman playing a guitar and that inspired.

Tod: Yeah this is this is this is specifically what I wanted to ask you like I like how that landed with you.

Ash: Hi yeah I think I think it's really I mean I think he's a psychopath right like I don't know how you walk away from this movie not thinking that that dude's a f****** psychopath.

David: Confessions of a dangerous mind.

Pat: I think George Clooney's character pretty much says it like that's the profile iqfit the prophy gets on you fit the profile and then he lays it out for him he's like.

Pat: You're not right and that that's why we picked you.

David: Ashley wanted to touching as you saying about enjoying watching the process of him pigeonly shows like real quick it's really out of my head.

David: This was Far funnier than I remember and sending the first part that I was like I don't remember being the funny thing I was thinking this was hilarious but I am triggered a memory of me watching it with the moms and like why I might have blocked out the humor like I grew up around the industry and.

David: I forgot how much of a douche the main character is and like and like I think I'm going to bet that this is definitely not true on this has some long game Ploy decoy head game trick that like we're just going to go so extravagant with the assassination no one will believe it but there might have been something else and recovered I think like the the the interesting thing is like there's the front side of you know entertainment business that the audience sees that's fun and haha and the dream of the life of like people that come to a like La till like being a part of where it's like yeah I'm like flashing around on this like making it I'm making a big which is the business and I feel that there's like a big allegory going on with the Assassin side of him that that's the business side of Hollywood and so I'm going to bet that this is not true.

Ash: Yeah but if it was just a metaphor for the business side and he he thought he was making like really clever social commentary and everyone took.

David: Yeah being a brilliant game show Market or played it off really well you don't like to sell the story about that line when they killed his baby and he's like don't they have any Humanity or whatever meanwhile he's like murdering people as an assassin you know I really think that that assassin life of him is is kind of like a like he's got a big metaphor for the business side of.

Ash: Yeah totally.

Tod: He's he's the man he's the man that is desperate to make a mark and to be taken seriously or at least two to have attention paid to him like he really craves the spotlight and so both as a character in the movie and as you know Chuck Barris in reality you know writing this out of biography I totally see it and do something f****** weird.

Ash: Yeah he thinks outside the box.

Tod: This one thing you can't say about him you know he's he's the guy that thinks outside the box.

Ash: Yeah you know I think you also in the beginning Todd you said how like it's very dreamlike like there's a lot of like film like shot choices and still making choices and make it feel really dreamlike like the split the way they did the split screen phone call where you thought it was a split screen.

Tod: The highly directed film.

Bret: That was that was a very fun shot that one in particular.

Tod: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah right that sets you up.

Pat: What is no one else like interacts with her.

Tod: Right now I didn't even think of that.

Ash: So cool and then like the winners like specifically the NBC page one was like really really cool and then I saw it I thought Drew Barrymore wasn't real until the Julia Roberts said hi Penny with until that point in the film I was like this chick is a figment of his imagination this is the perfect dream girl nobody else ever is in the same scene with them together they're always by themselves and then the conversation with Julia Roberts she never looks at her until the very end she says hi Penny and then leaves but like up until that point you could totally assume that this is a fake like figment of his imagination.

Sam: That's really good.

Tod: What I want to talk about 2 is that there's there's no scenes without Beres in the film I don't know if there's a word for this but like it's like no characters ever interact outside of his line of sight every scene is with him.

Ash: So it's when you're only seeing it through the hero's eyes and you're not you're never liked cutaway to the villain so you know.

Tod: And in almost every scene.

Tod: He's with just Him and one other person.

David: Yeah yeah that was great.

Tod: Which which gives you like you can like start getting into these things like I didn't I never thought of the idea that Penny wasn't real but I love that I really I really enjoyed wondering if the CIA people weren't real because again you like he never gets.

Ash: Right it makes everything you question everything right like when you're like we'll wait a minute what's real and what is it you know.

David: Yeah.

Ash: Right.

Tod: He's never there's never a scene where him and George Clooney and another person are together there's never a scene where well except the one you just mentioned the breast that I was going to say what Julia Roberts except the one you just mentioned were Penny like you know precious passed through that and as far as the Spy people there's only one scene and that's when he's in the car with I guess George Clooney's boss or whatever and you know what the microfilm you wanted you can reach up my ass but if you.

Bret: They did a couple of things with like the the dream feel of it with a little bit I was kind of like your your final cut is showing at because they didn't like some really heavy color grading on the Hollywood scenes we're at like the Reds were like super red but then like when he switched over to the the murdering.

Ash: I think those were Real documentary those were real interviews.

Ash: I think those were real interviews and anytime we saw a shot of the show on a TV and it was black and white that was real footage of the real show.

Tod: Correct correct.

Pat: I think.

Bret: Oh yeah like I was the real yeah from the new newlyweds or whatever.

Ash: But I think those interviews were real interviews to.

Bret: I was thinking about like that like the color throughout the film like his I feel like they put the next gen filter on his murder stuff like it didn't have that fantasy color grading those like almost like his Hollywood Adventures were fake and the murder was the only real pirate.

Ash: Pinterest the other way route you were going to say something say I'm what were you going to say.

Sam: I was just going to say that.

Sam: I think both of the ladies were not real.

Ash: Breakthrough like his high fantasy of what a woman should be right.

David: Right right.

Tod: Especially Julia Roberts Julia Roberts is just drenched in Norma Ste.

Ash: Yeah so.

Tod: She is.

David: Yeah especially at first.

Pat: Forever changing hair.

David: Especially with that first scene with her it was very Noir you know I think I think you hit something there it's like they're probably just scraped and he's always dealing with the writer or the male fantasy I think I think you hit something there with that like I definitely.

David: Leaving a job.

Ash: Because okay okay okay okay so Sam I love it so both women are not real which further like poles dislike delusion that the Spy Cop thing isn't real but the scene with the swimming pool and George Clooney and I was like and I was like.

Ash: He shot him but we didn't see it but he shot him.

Tod: The fact we didn't see it is was something I always really loved I think when David and I watched it just now actually his I think David had a theory that like George Clooney was already dead and dying.

Pat: That's what I thought.

Ash: That's what I think you were supposed to think but then they cut to that like wide shot at the end and there's like a lot of blood and not just a little like we cut from like just a little bit to all a sudden like the pool is full of blood and he's holding the gun pointed right at him and it makes you think like this dude so delusional that he's like rewriting likes things in his head and I think he didn't want to deal with the fact that he actually was the one that killed him and because why wouldn't George Clooney tell him who killed him why wouldn't I be the first thing that came out of his mouth.

Pat: I don't think he knows what he doesn't know because I'm going to counter that thing I think it's cool I think it's a cool Theory but for two things one is Julia Roberts let it slip.

Ash: I think you're cool but you're wrong.

Tod: You can be cool or right you can't be both.

Ash: Oh okay.

Pat: Is a lot of weird and wild in psychoanalyze it I kind of want to have a mini Desai discussion of this is a straight spy Thriller and how do if we like it like that will get there but I want to share one covers whatever points they want but that's seen cuz I enjoy that I like that seen a lot like your theory but two things one is later Julia Roberts admits she says she contracted that one out for bird he's bird so wasn't Julia Roberts she had she has someone else a third-party kill Clooney and I love his line it's just I really love the line where would he like how do I know you're at the mall and he goes you're a smart boy you'll figure it out and then then then then it reveals he's please like how do I know you're not the bolt cuz I'm here bleeding to death that's how you know I'm not the mole.

Ash: He got his. I mean.

David: Yeah. That was that was wrong that you know that line was that they like it's so hard cuz if you get the line and then you see him dying is like oh my God it's so he shot or stabbed or whatever and and he's he's like.

Tod: Is that really how it works does it leak down your pant leg.

Pat: I made a little bit of blood in water does not really.

Pat: Mount Rushmore.

Ash: Listen it's like bucket Mount Rushmore or wrong I don't know.

Tod: Rock rock mountain Rock Mountain I think you're thinking Vesuvius.

Ash: There's multiple heads.

Ash: Yeah.

Pat: No I'm not ready for the volcano well know that's true the Linkin Park is nosebleeds all the time that little known facts about Mount Rushmore at the Lincoln gets nose bleeds all the time it's just really dry but I do think that is a very interesting.

Ash: Damn I did it I steered the conversation two periods.

Bret: I want to happen.

Sam: A lot can happen in 30 seconds.

Ash: Yes.

Bret: We we came to the conclusion that George Clooney's heavy flow is what killed him.

Ash: I just wanted to tell you in but finally finally we've had the ultimate feminist discussion on.

Sam: Yeah.

Bret: Certainly there can be no conversation more feminist.

Tod: My favorite podcasts is the bechdel cast where they talk about like they specifically talk about the role of women in movies and I would love to hear their take on this one especially in regards to the penny character because she's simultaneously really did see and you know they they constantly hammer on this joke of her mispronouncing Words which is always a joke that I love like you know in female or male characters I especially liked it with Mafia guys any movie where like you know a mafia guy like thinks he like is is a little more educated than he really is.

Bret: That's like most mafia movies then.

Tod: She has that she has that kind of feel but simultaneously she's very I mean she's very wise and and she's like the person that he should be like listening to.

Bret: Yeah I mean that's.

Tod: It's it's stringy it's straying away from penny so yeah I don't know feminist thoughts on that anybody.

Bret: What's the Charlie Kaufman woman.

Ash: Oh she's horrible yeah that's it's it's.

Sam: He does not write women well women are beautiful sex objects for his men in his movies and I think he's a sexist prick.

Bret: Well it's either they either exist as just a sex object or like strictly there to be the tool by which he recognizes his errors like they don't have agency.

Ash: They were both.

David: Does Julia Roberts and Drew Barrymore Drew Barrymore is like the the dream like in a stable housewife and then Julia Roberts's the Mystique you know fantasy you don't like no that's a good point it like in Kaufman is known for New York where it's just like all the women are just there and it's just the writers minding his own little Universe Thailand and women are just there either to support him or be his like you know Spicy Delight you know like.

Bret: Did you watch and Annalisa.

Ash: Yeah that's on my resume actually Spicy Delight.

Pat: It sound like to say.

Ash: Oh no really.

Bret: Goodness and Annalisa was exactly the same way though like but like literally because the plot of an almond Lisa is its you know angsty white do older dude like.

Tod: That's f****** weird.

David: How do you get that and then you get there.

Bret: Pop it and every other puppet in the movie has the same face except for the woman he meets that's like you know the object of his desire or whatever it is so if so f****** literal.

David: When you get that really creepy claymation sex scene it was really uncomfortable yeah.

Bret: So so disturbing.

David: Yeah yeah but that's what I like about conference that you don't like what we made the John Malkovich thing about feeling achy and I was like that's what I liked about it like I like like you know most films are like oh it's actually pouring or it's a feel-good pouring or it's romance boring or it's like I like when I get a film.

Ash: You watch a lot of p******.

David: Play like you know it's like I like when a film will give us an emotion that we normally don't get that isn't distracting us from the everyday life so that's what I like about Kauffman despite his treatment of his female characters like.

Bret: Yeah I'm not going to say that like coughing makes just the same movie over and over again but because that's what I feel like it's a little reductive of what what it is but I'm pretty sure it's like.

Bret: Like when we worked at the Museum and you'd see at who is that one guy who did the highway Sirius and it was just like 600 paintings of a highway.

Sam: Rodger.

Bret: Rodger Kuntz and it was just like you know it's not that he's just writing the story about a guy who makes mistakes throughout the entire movie and never does anything redeeming and doing that over and over again for his whole career because he can't do anything else I think he's looking for the perfect way to tell that story and I don't know if he's gotten there yet.

Tod: I think that's well said yeah I appreciate that I think you're right I think Schenectady.

Tod: But I've heard good things.

David: Schenectady is the name of the city in New York but it's called synecdoche cuz that's like a literary mechanic and sorry no doubt on that cuz I actually really want.

Ash: I don't know if I'd say it's hurdle Sunshine is that I feel like Eternal Sunshine.

Bret: That's the Eternal Sunshine is 100 0. 000000at.

Ash: It's not about his career though it's Eternal Sunshine is about.

Bret: I didn't say career it's his his.

Ash: Oh I thought you said career sorry I thought you said a man like making mistakes in his career.

Sam: No he said he's made his career out of trying to tell the same story in a perfect way.

Ash: OIC okay.

Bret: An Eternal Sunshine was basically in another if this movie it's an Annalisa it's you know the story with an obvious answer if only the main character wasn't such a f****** dildo you know like.

David: Right yeah.

Bret: It's heavy.

Tod: Biggest biggest mine to fight as steer away from the the the writing and end the story a bit on I've been really curious what you guys feeling about Clooney's directing here is because it's strong handed like you eat that's it's very heavy.

Bret: If I cut the glove does not fit kind of heavy like it's just a big owl hand.

Ash: I do too me too.

Tod: I personally I really like a heavy-handed director I really like heavily stylized stuff I'm a big verhoeven fan I'm a big Terry Gilliam fan I like a movie where if I can watch 5 Seconds of it and I can name that director where is you know but I know a lot of people especially a lot of critics I listen to you know you know kind of critical of that and and really respond more to like more naturalistic kind of stuff but where do you guys land on this like cuz this is a heavy-handed director he is he is not wasting any time like managing and finessing.

Tod: Every every single shot.

Bret: I have thoughts but it asked if you want to start it I don't know.

Tod: Within 5 Seconds.

Ash: I too am like a fan of heavy-handed directors like a diamond again I also like you know like Wes Anderson Isle of I love being like yes I know that this is a Wes Anderson movie or I know this isn't yeah or I know this is an Edgar Wright movie like those are two of my favorites.

Ash: I liked honestly I will say from the point of view of being a director myself I am very impressed that this is his first film because there are some extremely Advanced like camera moves and Concepts and visual things that he pulled off that I would not expect to see in a first feature film that I was very impressed with like I said like the split screen effect was very f****** cool there's a lot of like just like camera angles and lighting choices and set choices and where people are like positioned in frames that are very interesting and very cool and it helps to make the film feel likes the real which I think is really cool but there were like also really weird choices like the text that came up there was like this film is blah blah blah blah.

Ash: The time.

Bret: Yeah the Reds and the Hollywood shots or but that one is a I'm certain if we wanted to go on a hunt about that for the Fairfax it's a time. Because this was this was Final Cut Is new remember like Digital Color grading is new and people really wanted to be like like what if we just push the colors yeah.

Ash: And they love crushing those blacks yeah where we Crush those blacks and the like early 2000s look of for sure and I get that like I think he was trying to be like.

Ash: You know maybe the point of making the documentary interview footage look so extreme and unrealistic was to point out the fact that this dude's real life wasn't realistic like the real footage doesn't look real you know what I mean I don't know it's interesting.

Tod: Yeah yep yep yep.

Ash: Muscle is the bus.

Tod: Totally agree totally agree.

Bret: Yeah wife I got the Feeling watching it it was like his attempt to especially with the with the preface about the Coen brothers that he was trying to emulate all of the cool stuff he had seen recently because this that was definitely trying to be the Coen Brothers talking like not so in the butt so color grading on a brother and.

Sam: I don't know if that's how I would call it.

Pat: What's that phrase you just said hold on. Record scratch.

Ash: Yeah that's that's a new that's a new one case where's the shirt so in the bus.

Bret: But then also like I could not get out of my mind that he just really wanted this movie to be fight club with the way the.

Tod: Sorry yeah yeah yeah nailed it.

Bret: The hair the leather jacket but you know there's a hole there's a whole part of the movie or just like this is just Tyler Durden right like this which but also plays into you know if you want to talk about the visual dictionary right like we had just recently learned that people dressed like that might not be real and this is a movie that has stories that maybe aren't real but those seeds.

Tod: I mean some of the some of the costuming choices I mean not to go all the way back to the Julia Roberts thing but some of the costuming choices in his later. Where he's feeling super confident I mean ever like.

Tod: Think about layering this like overall story structure over at like a Scorsese movie cuz it kind of maps.

David: I didn't touch you at said right at the beach.

Bret: Take us there take us there.

Tod: With with with but without without the humor.

David: You said that like within 20 minutes and it's only like this is a Scorsese film without the humor.

Tod: Well yeah yeah by the time you know he's he's you know coming out of nowhere on his way up and we already know we're going to see his fall and all its missing to be a Scorsese movie is like remove all the jokes and a lot of cocaine boom Scorsese.

Ash: Yeah.

Bret: I got you I got that one of their directorial thought I had and I want to ask anybody because you're weird actual director if it's a thing.

Ash: I'm a real boy.

Bret: I don't want to pass group the group judgment because of the thing I did not like but they totally did it on purpose and I want to know what you thought about that like 900f the shots in this movie had one point perspective.

Sam: Horizon line was straight.

Bret: It was just straight on like the Horizon like everything looks like straight back it was like almost like he was trying to do Wes Anderson stuff but he wasn't framing all cute like West.

Tod: There's no elevation to it is what you're saying.

Ash: There's no angle.

Bret: This movie was two. There is two dimensions in this movie it was.

Tod: Right yeah yeah yeah.

Ash: You know I I could see that being an actual cuz I kind of noticed that too that's what I meant like like the policeman in like this in the frame like he was definitely going for a really flat.

Ash: Look very flat like the shot and the boardroom down the table is like very flat and like I could see that actually him trying to mimic what these TV sets felt like you know what I mean like cuz you have the dating show and it's like literally just like a wood flat decorated with like hippie flowers behind them and everything back then was shot very flat for TV right like you know you because you had to be you you had a set and you actually had an audience and you had to have the cameras there was a very like Cedar like.

Bret: And you had home viewers with a TV screen that was only 8 in wide.

Tod: Will actually though actually though actually though like when he's really cracking up at the end of the movie we do start playing with elevation don't we.

Tod: I will discuss I will describe what I'm saying on your camera for the audience.

Bret: I see an obtuse.

Ash: Yes yeah a bit it's it's still pretty pretty like not necessarily elevation your think like flat is like you see how well this is terrible for the listeners but see how behind me there's just like a flat wall so flat is very like a cute dog laying there like like Wes Anderson is a very flat flat style where everything is like against a wall and the horizon line is straight and everything verses.

Tod: It's a it's a peanut it's a Peanuts cartoon.

Bret: Yeah yeah.

Ash: Yeah yeah versus like having depth in a scene.

Tod: Yeah absolutely like like full-on newspaper Comics like absolutely flat onto Dimensions there is no other dimension don't even think about it.

Bret: In a world where rules don't have corners like.

Ash: Right.

Pat: Well I got I mean TV studio I think makes more sense but I remember thinking watching it in a lot of scenes I got very big like play Vybz like stage play.

Tod: REI.

Ash: Yeah because if you think about it like again TV back then you know was very stage play kind of kind of setup.

Tod: I love I love that inside I do.

Bret: And it was his first time.

Ash: So I mean I wouldn't be surprised if that's you know where he was coming from it's also classically an amateur directors thing to do to so there's that.

David: What were you saying about the end scene and you were trying to describe elevation us with like what were your thoughts on that and shine.

Ash: Like the ending would he sort of like what I was thinking of the Ya-Ya it like it's still kind of flat right like it's just the backdrop is changing on him right so they keep moving in these different backdrops that are like representing different like times of his childhood and life and everything but like the angle itself is still very flat versus having something where you see death so you have like more of an angle in your seem like that's been to the the the background or whatever everything was like still really flat it was just changing these backdrops and we are seeing into his childhood kind of thing she was interesting yeah yeah it's not like there's not a lot of deaths in the scene cuz everything feels like like a 2d you know what can feel like a 2d drawing because there's no debt.

Ash: Yes yes.

Bret: I thinking about why like an art school thing it's it it is the concept of multiple points of perspective where it's it's hard to describe very quickly by like.

Ash: Like if you stand in the middle of a road and you look down the road you have these like Vanishing lines right of the road.

Bret: Everything comes to a point in the distance one single point.

Ash: Going out in the distance but a flat shot like what you're seeing behind me right now it's just a wall there's no Vanishing lines that it's just there's just a flat surface behind me so that's the flat sort of shot.

David: Oh thank you thank you.

Ash: Or static is another another term for it.

Ash: Yeah.

David: Cuz I really don't understand shots in framing a are any.

Tod: Yeah I'm I'm I'm a storyboard artist used to be by trade I can I can walk Dave through it but not on this podcast.

Ash: Hey Cat leaving for the listener you know.

Bret: It's it's square square versus Cube kind if that's easy enough right like.

Ash: And it just.

Bret: Verizon.

Sam: Basically the horizon line is parallel with the camera.

Ash: Right yeah.

Bret: Not perpendicular.

Sam: And not perpendicular not perpendicular so whenever like that changes to intersect with the camera then you get more.

Bret: We had a lot of those long hallway shots or it like when they're out in the streets and Berlin and he's going to murder the dude but it's just like straight down the street and straight down the boardroom and but it wasn't super consistent cuz there were shots with different angles so that's Whenever there was something different.

Tod: See I don't know I still think I'm onto something where when he's seriously cracking up on stage I think that's that's the first and only time that the camera is placed a very highly above him.

Tod: You know it's looking like for the first time we get some shots where the camera is looking down on him instead of just seeing what he sees.

Tod: You know on a on the two-dimensional plane.

Ash: Right oh I see what you're saying so you're talking more about perspective.

Tod: The part you know the part where he starts going nuts and then says like I see you I see you up there up there you know judging me blah blah blah you know.

Tod: I think.

Tod: Rate except for that part.

Ash: Yeah it's like the full film has been shot is hit his eye level because we are right because we are we are on the same page as him he is we believe in him and then as he's starting to lose his sanity then we're not at his eye level like you said and we're literally looking down upon him yeah just like his mother and you know is in the black and white footage looking down on the small child cuz you know that that's like the metaphor that they're making for sure they.

Tod: Can we go there to like I could it I could have done without that.

Bret: Yeah that's that was problematic.

Tod: I didn't I didn't need it.

Sam: Just inserted in and like not woven into the story at all and it's like.

Sam: Like an afterthought.

Bret: Like an afterthought.

Ash: Wasn't it his sister.

Pat: Coffman thing the whole thing everything about his back's about like his childhood that was f***** up that was not in the book that was Kaufman.

Ash: So interesting.

David: I literally said that.

Pat: About his mom dressing him.

Tod: Right yeah yeah it's most likely that like the Kaufman version of the film was going to be like you know 90taring down into the cradle and singing happy birthday with a creepy bail over yourself and then you're in a hotel asking you to pretend they're your mommy.

Ash: Are you I will say though I do feel like that was weave into the story though cuz they talked about they talked about how he killed his twin That was supposed to be a girl.

Bret: It was always all of that info information all of those things were presented to us at the same time in the same scene and never mentioned again.

Ash: I mean it wasn't the same scene cuz it was mentioned in the pool scene and then we cut to the him going crazy scene and then we saw the birthday scene so.

Sam: What the pool scene was way over halfway through the movie so it's not like.

Ash: Definitely yeah it wasn't like setup yeah.

Tod: I did well I did appreciate that the the weird prostitute part of it was given to us before and then you know we had to wait like another 25 minutes to say like you know to figure out like what the f*** was that about.

Tod: I would not.

Ash: Wait what weird prostitute part should I skim over this yeah okay I'm glad.

Pat: Remember this yeah I don't even remember that scene.

David: Hired a prostitute to sing Happy Birthday for him with the veil and then later we.

Ash: Penny.

David: That was a prostitute.

Bret: No that was not penny.

Tod: No it wasn't no it wasn't it was a prostitute they immediately right after that they immediately flashed a penny but no it's it's it's definitely a prostitute you know that he hired to like act up you know that's why she says do it right and then the immediately flash to Penny we have no idea what the f*** was that it's only 20 minutes later that we see his flashbacks with his mother.

Tod: Enacting that ritual.

Pat: Towards the end I like black I don't even remember that.

Ash: Psycho wasn't it psycho yeah.

Bret: Pinterest it's a whole problematic thing like I don't know if you guys you guys like Lindsay Ellis you ever watch those videos that you did one recently that was like completely debunking and said game like mommy issues serial killer thing and it's just like it's holy invented that you know mommy issues gender confusion thing it leads to serial killers at a it was invented for like shock media and in newspapers in Psycho from apparently a newspaper who wrote just made it up about these murders before there was any investigation then it was like the next day newspaper of like a sexual weirdo.

Bret: But those weren't based on any facts.

Ash: Sexual weirdo.

Bret: Listener to go check out via the Lindsay Ellis thing on was it is basically it was there.

Sam: It was the the thesis offered video was that they use transphobia as a murder has a motive for being a murder.

David: They bring this up a lot in mindhunter I don't even watch the even Ed Kemper had those same as you always type of thing.

Tod: Okay well I don't I don't I don't know about the other gender identity thing and I haven't looked into it for a long time but the last time I checked which was a long time ago if you if you do look at serial killers you can you can always find sexual repression is part of their.

Tod: There their profile.

Bret: George Clooney.

Sam: We're talking about George Clooney's directing.

Ash: He doesn't have a.

Pat: I forgot where we're at with us we have five conversations going at once all my short a short answer that question is honestly the paint like it depends I think it's like a sauce you put on food if I like the sauce f****** flattered that on baby if I don't like the sauce no thank you is like it for me if it's a director whose aesthetic I like yes please drench your movie in that aesthetic that I like like so I like a shin it like I like Wes Anderson everything he does is good but it's not it's not quite as he he's pretty versatile.

Bret: Visual stylist.

Sam: It's not a visual style it's a written style I would say.

Ash: Thank you exactly exactly what I was going to say.

Pat: Yeah but but the visual style like I said if I if I like it or or like like the Cornetto Trilogy like with Simon Pegg like that there's there is a very strong visual south of those if it's something that I like I'm trying to think I feel like I should juxtaposes with one that I don't like them kind of coming up empty I'll be there in bivalents or like it but.

Ash: Scorsese on Scorsese.

Tod: Do you like verhoeven or Scorsese or guy.

Pat: I'm like man I like some of the movies they do I don't know there's certain things.

Tod: Oh yeah oh yeah.

Ash: He forgot he did that.

Pat: Another one I like I like I got rich East I like I watch I recently watched that King Arthur movie he did wasn't greatly received and I liked it I thought it was super f****** fun.

Ash: I forgot he did that.

Sam: I didn't know that.

Pat: It done it usually it's literally like if snatch was King Arthur movie was a fantasy King Arthur movie.

Ash: With Keira Knightley.

Tod: Sign me up send me a I'm downloading now.

Sam: No that was a different one I think.

Pat: No it's Charlie Hunnam Charlie Hunnam the guy who's in Sons of Anarchy.

Ash: This is a newer one right.

Pat: Laws in it Eric Bana is in it.

Ash: Oh okay.

Pat: Diamond hunt Susan it.

Ash: But this film.

Pat: I don't want to have a discussion at Super like deep in like psychoanalyzing in like the very like ethereal of it as a straightforward spies like.

Pat: Wasn't enjoyable do we like it.

Bret: This question is a final wrap-up question Pat are we going there.

Pat: I mean I'm okay with that.

Ash: Unless.

Tod: Like Dave or anyone it raise your hands if you had any burning questions you need to talk about before we land This Plane.

David: I have I have I have really won in this place in it with Pat saying this is a spy Thriller Todd and I kind of had a difference of opinion on targeting so we could I wanted to talk about that at the beginning.

David: Real quick just real quick real quick so George Clooney not like when you targeting assets you know like you're looking for a specific profile on this place in and what we've just been talking about profiling like Todd said he didn't really feel the profile at the beginning I kind of saw it just wasn't executed well in the film.

Ash: What do you mean by profile sorry I'm not really sure.

Ash: Okay.

Ash: OIC okay.

Tod: No that's alright that's alright this is that this is a pure spy geek thing you know like like this is the kind of thing we talked more about on are so then maybe on yours but I would I would say the targeting of I mean cuz you know we go through a lot of spy movies and you know the recruitment process is is kind of important to us like who do you like maybe recruit bring into the fold as an asset I did not see any good reason for George Clooney's character to latch onto this person.

Ash: 100.

Tod: At the beginning I give it - what we would call it is -5 points on our show.

Tod: But David has a slightly different opinion.

David: I don't think it was executed well so I'm on Todd side but like thinking of Miss goes back to like what we've discussed as far as writing and like what is super absorbed self-absorbed like move in on my impulse type of thing you know and especially when we get more information on his file later on I think he was well targeted but we didn't actually get to watch the recruitment process that's kind of why I'm on top side but I really want to discuss that because that's the whole story.

Tod: But the CIA had no reason to know he was a good Target.

Bret: Well okay so like.

Ash: Well he killed his unborn twin just kidding.

Bret: Well and I think it's it's not so much the cuz he wasn't I mean was self-absorbed but it was more than that and like the same that they got real writer E into throughout the movie was less self-absorption and more just the the need to be special because that's why it wasn't about the money it was like my life sucks and like I can be a spine out I'll kill anyone you want.

Pat: The need to be special.

Tod: The meet the need to be special is what the whole movie is about an NN and how it becomes toxic to his relationships into his own personality.

Pat: Will the need to be special and the willingness and the capability to do whatever it takes to get there like lying and say you putting the head the CEO of the f****** studio is your reference for your management training application.

Bret: Yeah buddy are you guys are right like the approach was a little weak like George Clooney's just like you look like you kill someone for my approval and also I like the way you masturbate son like.

Tod: Also I heard your dick taste like strawberry.

Tod: It really is it really is.

Bret: Alternate.

Sam: Bullfighting is imaginatory I like even at the at the end of Julia Robert's character is literally says it like it it's her line she says like men never imagined that they're the guy next door the insurance broker they always imagined they're Fantastical things like it's literally spelled out in the directing that this is all an alternate reality and not actually happening because he's just living in his own mind you know.

Tod: Do you think so do so do you think that this is a like a total recall or an American Psycho kind of situation.

Sam: Making American Psycho iacono's feels like you know the movie A Beautiful Mind it feels a little bit like he was trying to do that I don't know.

Bret: But instead of being like really smart with numbers and shaky just makes up game shows.

Ash: Yeah hahaha.

Pat: I do not like the Total Recall Rivers their Arnold did all those things he saved Mars. It is not in his head.

Bret: Although I know although I guess both of those.

Pat: Don't you dare besmirch him.

Bret: The sky is this guy and a beautiful mind were both working on Game Theory right.

Ash: Yeah you know at the end of the day for sure.

Bret: Adam sorry.

Pat: Game Theory f*** off.

Tod: Did we catch it on the recording that I didn't mention.

Ash: You're cancelled bread go in the cord.

Tod: Arnold Schwarzenegger was a candidate on The Dating Game I don't I don't remember if we cut that on the recording.

Pat: He was he was and it was like really awkward or funny weird cuz he didn't get a lot of like terms like he didn't understand was fooling around was or something like.

Ash: That's adorable though.

Tod: Also Michael Jackson.

Ash: Wow wow.

Tod: Was the candidate on The Dating Game.

Ash: Is this like before they were famous or.

Pat: Newly famous I think yeah.

Ash: Like they were famous newleaf it okay.

Pat: Sounds like a good day.

Tod: Bachelor number line if I take you out on a date or what would we do and he's like I would eliminate all your enemies and crush your children and listen to the Lamentations of your women.

Pat: That's what's best in life.

Pat: Just a weird dark Easter egg joke training.

Tod: No.

Pat: What is a Rover shots can a cross of Saint there's two trainees there with the last name is Ruby and Oswald and then when he leaves he says by Jack is in Jack Ruby by Lee as in Lee Harvey Oswald.

Ash: Wow wow.

Tod: No nice catch.

Ash: I don't I don't like that.

Bret: That's like.

Bret: That's like the leading all. All right like it's the most likely thing to be true.

Ash: Yeah exactly that's why I don't like it.

Ash: Okay so let's.

Tod: Where we going let's land This Plane.

Sam: Final thoughts cuz this baby's going to wake.

Bret: FX Atlanta it now or we crash and die.

Pat: I want to hear what he has to say first movie would you think bud.

Bret: I fell asleep.

Sam: I can't get them to respond.

Tod: How is the snow is this Baby's First recording.

Ash: Overhand.

Ash: 50 version of heavy-handed overhead.

Tod: How he loves it he loves the movie he thought he thought that the directing was a little over over handed but he liked the performances and and and and he wants to know who this Rutger Hauer is he wants to know more.

Ash: Rutger Hauer was like the best part of this movie.

Tod: He was good he was good I was I was dissatisfied and how much like he actually showed up because my expectations from my like memories were like.

Ash: Alright Sam go for it.

Sam: Didn't care for this.

Ash: What about as a spy as a spy movie and then get into your overall.

Sam: Didn't feel like it was very spicy there was no like cool Intrigue no like tracking down people the most spy thing was trying to find out who the mole was and they didn't even make it a plot point it just kind of reveals itself at the end and there's only.

Ash: Or the microfilm up the ass.

Bret: Let's make the only.

Sam: Oh yeah that was sure yes great let's make the only spy thing some weird sexual reference thanks Charlie Kaufman and.

Bret: What does.

Tod: Did you let did you like the Ancien though with Julia Roberts with the with the Lazy Susan.

Sam: What's 30 but that was like the only exciting and think it's flopping the tea is like okay.

Bret: I wouldn't.

Sam: I wouldn't if you accept.

Sam: I didn't know we were doing it because it was a spy film I would never categorize this as a spy phone in my mind it's it's certainly weird but that could just be because like I decided in my own mind at the end of the spy stuff was made up so therefore it's not about him actually being a spy so that's just my take on it being a spy movie as a movie over all the drug team is having any but I agree with Ash like it's pretty good for his first directorial debut typically really like George Clooney.

Sam: Why can't he didn't direct descendants right or did he.

Sam: I think it was the dean from Community but I want to say he helped.

Sam: Jim Schroeder okay and then and then did George Clooney.

Ash: He wrote that he wrote it though yeah Jim Rash wrote it I don't know if he Direct.

David: Oh my God I did not know that holyshit.

David: Holyshit thank you for that. I just made my evening.

Sam: I think George Clooney directed it but so I know he like grew as a director so it's cool to see where he started I just I don't care for the story I don't care for the woe-is-me privileged white male succeeding at Hollywood by life boohoo I'm still so sad like okay this f****** waychoff please.

Ash: He didn't direct it by the way I just looked it up Alexander Payne dead.

Bret: The movie ended the movie ended in Sam's no word review was.

Sam: I just.

Ash: Perfect.

Bret: The jerk-off motion for those listening.

Sam: Maybe I'm crazy cuz I haven't slept in three weeks but my. Is is if you was a person only right women this way which is that they are only there to have sex with the man or be sexy that that's all you think of women because if you thought they were more you would write them as people and so therefore I am not a fan of you Kaufman then like I just don't relate to the character and I don't know.

Ash: Which one the sexy spy or the ditzy blondes.

Tod: Well you should not relate to the character at all.

Sam: Also I mean he's not likeable.

Tod: If you were late if you relate to the character that there's something wrong with you.

Sam: But there's supposed to be some sort of like appeal to the character at life nothing appealing and not even like sometimes you know the directors will write Bad characters and you just like to watch them be punished because they're bad people and it's not even it's not even that type of story you know like he's never really punished for being a bad person he just exists as a bad person and there's nothing redeeming about his character.

Bret: Because obviously at it we all hated the main character in this movie but I'm thinking about the monnalisa Charlie Kaufman's I think second most recent thing and the split down the middle of that one was appraised almost all of it universally was from people going like this is accurate depiction of life these are real people with real feelings and.

Bret: Which I think is the point that he's trying to make when he's writing these terrible stories about about terrible people is he's trying to write them in a way that you will empathize with the person before realizing everything they're doing is wrong and then they realize everything that you're doing is wrong.

Bret: You know like he's trying to write a parable or something but hasn't quite landed it yet and this was like way earlier and it does like Nino or the Proto video using someone else's material to try it.

Bret: Right Rihanna write his morals into it but.

Bret: What is how I feel about this movies I didn't land moral wise for sure.

Bret: Did I like it not really sorry but it's you know it's just I think it's also in a genre of films and podcasts and other things in general that I've been actively trying to avoid in my personal enjoyment stuff which is bad people doing bad things that were entertained by you no like.

Ash: Like Kanye.

Sam: Jackass.

Bret: I'm thinking like you know the genre of like murder podcast swear it's like I just don't like it I don't like someone really died so we could be entertained about this and I'm not about it like I'm not I'm not learning about learning anything about like you know my life or is be useful Knowledge from knowing how people were murdered and I kind of feel like God if that's what this is if it's a true story like what is that what am I supposed to feel about that you know so just on a personal level I don't really like that.

Bret: Yeah yeah yeah.

Ash: See I feel like it's interesting that you say like the moral I think if you have to look at this movie from the perspective of the Spy s*** is not real and and most of his interactions with women I don't think are really either except for when he's actually like grossing them out and they're like why did you whip out your dick in the middle of a f****** movie theater.

Tod: I have to ask like that interaction with the woman in the grotto.

Pat: The woman who called him out.

Pat: You think she's going to like flirt with him.

Tod: Did you believe that that was real I did not for a second I thought that was his own psyche the woman that swims up and and says you are a f****** absolute piece of s*** you are destroying Humanity like I didn't believe for a goddamn second that she was real yeah.

Ash: No I don't think that was really either because here's the thing I think the moral of the film or the point of the film was to point out that this guy wants to be special and important so bad but he actually isn't and that he hasn't even come close because at the very end you know it's that line of I have an idea for another show will have three older men tan and a gun in front of them and will have them talk about you know their lives and talk about how close they came to achieving their dreams and whoever doesn't blow their brains out as the winner and that's the actual guy on screen that's the guy that this movie is about and so I think that that was the point of the film the point of the film was he wants to be that but he he's not and he hasn't come anywhere close 2 to achieving his actual dreams in sort of a Gatsby sense because he's alone and he hasn't actually like achieved real love and his life and also like a career sense because even though he created these game shows he's also very like hated for it and I think that that also like affects him and that's what that swim up scenes all about he just wants to be loved at the root of it and that's like all the weird mother stuff and whatever and at the end of the day.

Ash: He's not and he never achieved it you know.

Sam: Bridge XP only person that truly loves him I mean granted if she's real yeah.

Ash: Cuz I don't think she's real I don't think she's real yeah that I think that's why he rejects her cuz she's not actually physically a human.

Bret: It in the way you know that The Grotto scene wasn't real.

Tod: Even though even though Drew Barrymore National Treasure.

Bret: The way that you know that The Grotto scene wasn't real also is if you've ever been to a Hollywood party no one's in the pool they're all just thirsty for networking.

Sam: Especially naked.

Ash: I will argue that was the Playboy mansion and I thought you people are in the pool the Playboy Mansion.

Sam: What's the Playboy Mansion how do you know that.

Ash: Yep theraplay because they were Playboy bunnies standing around the pool that weren't in the pool they were wearing the bunny outfit.

Bret: See even the bunnies are just there to network.

Ash: Listen those girls Hustle Man.

Bret: No that's a different magazine.

Ash: Anyway long story short my wrap-up is if you look at this movie from the perspective that everyone is fake and it's and he's delusional and he's creating this delusion you know I think it could have been a very good movie cuz it could have been very syrebral and interesting and it just never really and I think you know because maybe because you know they didn't want to say one way or another I think that that's the fault of the film is at the end of the day it doesn't really make like a super clear statement that then it is all in his head like you know you don't watch Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind and go like what's in his head and what's not like you get what's in his head and what's not so I think that that was I'm assuming since Charlie Kaufman doesn't like this movie I'm assuming that was changes that George Clooney made that then made that unclear and really blur the lines because I think if it was a little more clear that it was cerebral and at the end the reveal was like yeah this is all in his head and it was a little more like concrete I think it could have been a good movie but.

Ash: Cuz then then at the end the day it's like yeah all these women that we've treated so f****** poorly through the whole movie yeah they're not real cuz this psychopath this is this psychopath vision of what a woman should be you know that would have made that okay but we never we never quite landed that and so and so it's to me it's not a great film though there's some really really interesting directorial choices the lighting we didn't even really talk about the lighting the lighting is f****** beautiful in this movie and the you know the cinematography is great and the set-pieces are pretty great too but I just think there was some directorial choices and writing choices that are just like we said before a key so that's my review.

Tod: I would I would like to I would like to jump in and and follow up on ash.

Tod: Over directed it's probably true like like you know a better film might have been a little a little like throttle it down a little bit.

Tod: The themes of his inability to get laid and then suddenly halfway through the movie he's got an explosion of p**** opportunities.

Tod: Bet he manages terribly.

Tod: Are I think like.

Tod: What what what the film.

Tod: In large part is trying to talk about you know like you know going from.

Tod: It's not from Zero to Hero it's from its from ineffective it's from you know he passes through like the singularity point of being unnoticeable.

Tod: To becoming like a superstar and and just absolutely like trash has the sole f****** life around it if if there's anything valid.

Tod: About this film I think that's it.

Tod: I mention this you know before like.

Tod: I've seen it I liked it I'm glad I saw it but I don't need to see it again I definitely don't need to put it on myself.

Ash: No devoleena.

Pat: Weird because there are a lot of things I like like elements to it don't think baking a cake and I love eggs and I love sugar and like like Sam Rockwell is a very talented and you heat he started off right at the beginning his dancing dude loves to dance he's great at it dances every f****** movies in he dances he's Charming there were moment there were moments I really like like I really like the George Clooney pool scene I like the end scene with Julia Roberts and I like that I like that seen a lot.

Sam: Souffle caved.

Pat: Elizabeth in the big little tiny temperature like I like that and then just it's like the cake came out of the oven and just didn't hold together just kind of fell apart.

Tod: I feel you I feel you keep keep it rolling.

Pat: Yeah it is what it was like man it's like this could have been a kind of see what you're going and then I think a lot of it if I want if I wanted more ambiguity you if it's real or not cuz the problem at the one problem with making it clear as we don't know because it is based on a book that is presented as fact that these things happened so.

Ash: What does it mean as a filmmaker you can't make a definite statement though.

Pat: But then you basically are calling out this person who wrote your book is like what a fukin wacko how can you believe this guy right here like.

Tod: So so maybe so maybe that was a wrong decision on Clooney's part to not decide for himself.

Ash: Yeah I think it's a filmmaker you have to have a point of view.

Tod: You know maybe maybe that was a wrong decision on a as a filmmaker I mention it before as a strong decision it's a brave decision.

Pat: Yeah it's just.

Tod: But maybe it didn't pay out for Pat or for some of the other guys.

Pat: It was just kind of met or meet like my review.

Bret: Having having seen what we got and having made that comment at the beginning about like it was cool that he didn't make a choice I take it back at this point I'm totally on the hit the nail on the head there director should have a viewpoint.

Pat: The counters that I think would have been cooler to make it where the director of the blue point that it really did happen but nobody believes him like hahaha so funny and then you just as like gives up trying to convince people is like fire.

Bret: Very different movie.

Tod: Well that's a good but I mean I think we get that a little bit with the you know in the in the car as their.

Pat: Laughing if they're weather yeah.

David: I agree with everything everybody said like I'm really happy that y'all lettuce on this podcast case every single one of you had really good insights and everything that was said was like spot-on for me re-watching this especially being older and understanding storytelling better now than when I first saw it the one thing I do want to say to convince people to watch it is that it's hilarious and then it gets dark and I mentioned dark humor like in the first part like I really really enjoy like moments.

David: Her name like and there's a lot of moments that happen in this story that would like this. Story like this this experience or ride we're going through at all.

Tod: Oh all of a sudden I feel I feel ashamed I feel ashamed of myself for laughing.

David: Mmm like this is back to the icky feelings when we were talking about John malcott like I I really enjoyed getting something away from the other the norm where we're actually allowed to feel things that we're told we're not allowed to feel you know everybody.

Ash: And I mean films should be a cathartic experience and while I do personally enjoy a positive cathartic experience it doesn't mean that it's wrong to have a different sort of cathartic experience so it is in you know it is interesting when you have filmmakers that do that really well that can can be like hey this is an icky feeling and you might not like it but it is a feeling and you know it is a feeling that maybe you push away and maybe we should live in it for a second and explore it that can be totally interested you do like I think Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind doesn't really well where it's like.

Ash: Really f****** painful breakup and let's live it that even though you probably don't want to you know.

Tod: I mean I can name I can name a few films that I'm I'm glad that I watched but I never want to see again.

Ash: Yeah totally totally totally.

Bret: Got a few on the show I think.

Sam: Full leg.

Sam: Oyster like Schindler's List like you're not supposed to like.

Sam: I do want to say enjoy it but like it's what Ash said you know it's supposed to elicit a specific feeling that's not pleasant but it's it's in a cathartic experience and then like.

Sam: Blanket on the name of the movie but the one that was about World War 1 and the two guys that go through it.

Bret: Like just came out last.

Sam: No no more recent like just came out last year.

Tod: No it's so it's much much more recent.

Ash: Seven 1970.

Bret: Do whatever and I'm counting some number.

Sam: Yes yes yes like that movie is it's really good but it's not like a pleasant feeling that you get from it so.

Ash: Totally.

Tod: Yeah like you know I'm fat.

David: I don't know how to follow up Schindler's List but I did want to talk about Magnolia experience it's not fun at all even just like you want to look at it from a filmmaking.

Sam: Magnolia is a great example as well like that movie I watched it one time and it still haunts me the way it made me feel so.

Ash: I love Magnolia.

Pat: Requiem for a Dream.

Ash: Sorry.

Ash: I hate that one.

Tod: I would say Bad Lieutenant Leaving Las Vegas and what was that movie with the Connelly and the one where they do a bunch of yeah yeah yeah.

Tod: That's my reaction as well like happy I saw it don't ever f****** show that movie to me again ever please I don't I don't I don't need that s*** in my dreams.

Bret: Well we must end the show because pet at 1 a. M. Over where bad is so thank you guys so much for coming on that was a Confessions of a dangerous mind fellows do you want to let the listeners know where they can find you.

David: You can find us on any podcast stop by searching Spies Like Us podcast or just go to our website Spies Like Us. Net and thank you so much for having some issues.

Ash: Thank you.

Tod: I mean this was super fun like just I mean the with we like talking about movies and and you guys are like f****** fun to talk about movies with.

Ash: Thank you thank you for coming.

Bret: Audience.

Ash: Yes you can also follow us we're on Twitter at let's re-watch where we do fun things like movie poles where you guys get to choose the movie or if if we or the guests decided to choose the movie I do fun things like tweeting a screenshot from the movie and guys this one was too hard even gave a second screenshot to make it easier and nobody guessed it so I'm so sorry.

Ash: Yeah right I guess I guess that's why I'm so sorry.

Bret: I don't think that the worldwide gross if only 30 million that maybe people haven't seen it but just put George Clooney on screen Ash put them up there.

Bret: Oh man okay alright.

Ash: I put Drew Barrymore man but I guess it's she's like silhouetted it's like when she's at the door I like knocking on the door trying to get him to open it and so like it's her silhouette so maybe even though you don't necessarily know it's her but I didn't want to I tried to be tricky and I was too tricky.

Pat: You didn't do Rockwell but.

Ash: I should have.

Ash: To talk about that but.

Bret: Yeah man if we had more time I would love to talk about Clooney's obsession with his f****** but man.

David: 2 hours of Rockwell butt.

Bret: Store apple pie.

Sam: If you liked our podcast more than we liked this movie please give us a 5-star review on Google podcasts or apple podcast we love your feedback if you give a serve you will read it and please tell your friends thank you.

Bret: We're just not reading the two new reviews we got today cuz it's too late.

Ash: Next time.

Bret: Next time.

Sam: Next time next time.

Pat: We'll do it next time we'll get you we love you we are part of these certain pov. Com network of shows and usually I write off a bunch of shows but we've been doing this thing as a network for like over a year and it's in this is the best way to go to certain pov. Com every week one of the host of a show on the network reads off like super fast descriptions of we make these little videos of the new episodes of the shows that came out on the network that week and that's a really cool way and just like 2 minutes to see if there's a show that looks cool anyway to check it out so just go to ebay. Com in new watch that video and you can see some of the new content that's get out and every week we do a new one.

Ash: I actually have to record one cuz I was supposed to record at today.

Pat: You're up the chore wheel fell on you.

Bret: Join us next time when we watch a great movie from the 70s Mafia versus ninja.

Sam: What could go wrong.