Episode 91 - The Golden Age with Zach Herring

We continue our brush with the formative years of super hero fiction, this time looking on the deconstructionist retrospective work from James Robinson and Paul Smith! Zach Herring joins Case and Jmike to look back at The Golden Age!

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Overview:

●      In the latest episode of our podcast, titled "The Golden Age," we dive into James Robinson's acclaimed comic series, discussing its significant themes, characters, and the impactful twist that rivals iconic works like Watchmen. Starting with an overview of the series and its setting against the backdrop of McCarthyism and WWII, we analyze key characters such as Johnny Quick, Alan Scott, and Paul Kirk, along with their moral dilemmas and development throughout the story. The conversation highlights the graphic violence in the climactic battle and how various plot twists, particularly involving Tex Thompson and Dynaman, enhance the narrative's exploration of historical themes. We also appreciate Paul Smith’s artwork for its contribution to the storytelling, reflect on the comic's enduring legacy, and share recommendations for both potential readers and upcoming podcasts. The session wraps up with a call to action for listeners to engage with other related content and join our community discussions.

Notes:

●      #####  Introduction and Background (00:00 - 09:04). Discussing James Robinson's 'The Golden Age' comic series. Spoiler warning issued for those who haven't read it. Book described as having a significant twist, comparable to Watchmen. Participants share when they first read the series

●      #####  Characters and Themes (09:04 - 20:21). Johnny Quick introduced as a viewpoint character. Discussion of Starman comic series and its connection to The Golden Age. Alan Scott (Green Lantern) described as a Superman-like figure in the story. Exploration of themes like PTSD, McCarthyism, and the impact of WWII

●      ##### ️ Plot and Character Development (20:22 - 31:09). Paul Kirk (Manhunter) introduced as an amnesiac character. Discussion of Alan Scott's role and moral dilemmas. Introduction of Ted Knight (Starman) and his guilt over the atomic bomb. Hawkman described as an eccentric character

●      #####  Villains and Twists (31:09 - 41:05). Reveal of Tex Thompson as the main villain. Discussion of the Ultra-Humanite as the first supervillain in comics. Explanation of Dan the Dynamite Dunbar's transformation into Dynaman. Major twist revealed: Adolf Hitler's brain placed in Dynaman's body

●      #####  Action and Consequences (41:05 - 51:16). Description of the brutal final battle. Discussion of the graphic violence depicted in the comic. Exploration of the consequences of the twist on the story's themes.  Historical Context and Themes (51:16 - 01:02:18). Discussion of how the comic addresses McCarthyism and the Red Scare. Exploration of the story's themes of American exceptionalism and patriotism. Comparison to other comics dealing with similar themes

●      #####  Artistic Elements (01:02:18 - 01:12:30). Praise for Paul Smith's artwork, particularly in action scenes. Discussion of the comic's visual style and how it complements the story

●      #####  Legacy and Impact (01:12:30 - 01:20:22). Discussion of The Golden Age's influence on later comics. Comparison to other significant superhero battles in comics

●      #####  Final Thoughts and Recommendations (01:20:23 - 01:32:13). Participants share their overall impressions of the comic. Discussion of the book's strengths and weaknesses. Recommendations for potential readers

●      ##### ️ Wrap-up and Future Episodes (01:32:13 - 01:42:56). Announcement of upcoming podcast episodes. Promotion of other podcasts and channels. Information on where to find the hosts and their work

Transcription

00:00
Zach
This feels like Robinson exploring a lot of themes that he wanted to get. Like, this felt like a. Like him sort of, like, fleshing out the next 10 years of, like, what he wants to write about.

00:11
Case Aiken
It's definitely like, if you know the path for James Robinson, you can sort of feel like, okay, this is his first exploration of, like, D.C. And the stuff he wants to talk about. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm Casey Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, J. Mike Falson.

00:52
Jmike
Welcome back, everybody. So glad to have you here today.

00:55
Case Aiken
Glad to be back here. We're talking about more Golden Age material. In fact, we're talking about the Golden Age, the James Robinson miniseries. And to do that, we are joined by Zach Herring.

01:06
Zach
Hello, everybody. Good to be here.

01:08
Case Aiken
Zach, welcome back.

01:10
Zach
It's good to be here. Thank you.

01:12
Jmike
Gotcha going on.

01:13
Zach
Gotcha. Yeah. You get five seconds of good voice, and we're gonna have at least an hour of bad voice, so buckle up, everybody.

01:21
Case Aiken
So before we really get into this conversation, I'm just gonna put a big old spoiler warning up front. If you have not read the Golden Age, also called JSA the Golden Age, when it was reprinted in the Years after, and you care, check out now, because there's some big spoilers, and it's a story that has a really big twist that is good. It's a good twist. It's important to it.

01:46
Zach
It's the equivalent. I mean, like, this is not gonna be the last time we talk about ties to Watchmen. It would be the equivalency of listening to someone discuss Watchmen without having read it first.

01:55
Case Aiken
Right, right.

01:56
Zach
It's important to read this first before you.

01:58
Case Aiken
It's in that caliber.

01:59
Zach
Yeah, yeah.

02:00
Case Aiken
So if you haven't read it, head on out. Because, like I said, it's a good twist, and if you want to read it, you don't want to be having it spoiled. So goodbye.

02:11
Zach
Bye, everybody. See you next year. Yeah.

02:15
Case Aiken
All right, so we're the five people who remain for those who have read it or don't care, because, like, that's also. That's also fair. We're going to talk about the series the Golden Age by James Robinson and Paul Smith and. All right, so I wanted to ask, when did you guys read this in relation to it? J. Mike, when you told me that.

02:36
Jmike
We were going to be going over this.

02:38
Case Aiken
So the standard.

02:40
Jmike
I was like, what is this? The Golden Age from the Justice Society? Huh? Interesting.

02:45
Case Aiken
I love that. This is half a Book club of just my curated list of, like, these are the comics I really liked back in the day. Zach, how about you?

02:52
Zach
I first read it in 2020. Actually. I read it first time in 2020. I think a podcast we both listened to did a special on it. I was like, well, that sounds pretty cool. So I read it, and then I reread it for this. So, yes, because apparently I forgot everything about it. This was like reading a new book for me. Maybe that was just, like, the BLUR that was 2020, but I literally got to the end, the aforementioned twist, and was like, wait, what? So, like, really? Yeah, it didn't stick the second the first time, apparently, for some reason.

03:26
Case Aiken
Wow.

03:26
Zach
Yeah. Yeah.

03:27
Case Aiken
So I read this back in 97, I want to say.

03:31
Zach
Okay. Actually, when did this come out?

03:33
Case Aiken
This came out. I think it came out in 93 to 94.

03:37
Zach
Okay. So I've seen the COVID afterwards.

03:41
Case Aiken
I had seen the covers when it was, like, coming out monthly. I did not read it until I got the trade. So that was about 97. So about three years later is when the. The trade probably came out a little bit before that. And it was like, a gift. And I was getting into, like, more Golden Age material, and I was very intrigued by it.

03:58
Zach
I think. I think that my library has your trade. The trade, so that the copy I'm holding is copyright 1995. So I think I actually read it in the same trade or the same printing that you did, which is kind of cool.

04:09
Case Aiken
And we'll talk about that, because there is a lineage of books that come off of this, which is also kind of a fun thing about it. So I. I read it back in the day. I loved it. I, I. It. It was weird rereading this for. For this. And it has probably been, like, 10 years since the last time I, like, stopped and read the whole thing. I got to issue four, and I was like, I don't feel like I need to reread issue four, because issue four, I have read so many times. Like, that's, like, the part that I've, like, flipped to so often when looking at this book. But. But I. I read it then, and I was revisiting the tropes of this all for a video I did on Dynaman. And that got me really into thinking about this book.

04:47
Case Aiken
And I was like, I really want to talk about this. And we're doing some other Golden Age stuff. This would be a fun kind of, like, end of this round of Golden Age conversation. So I was really excited to talk to J. Mike about it. And, Zach, you've always been down to talk about, like, the mid to late 90s material that's been out there that was influential for us. So I was like, was I the.

05:06
Jmike
Only person who thought of, like, Incredibles when they said dynamic? And I was like, wait a second, there's a Dyna guy. Or is it Dynamite? I don't remember.

05:14
Zach
I haven't. Apparently, I need to rewatch Incredibles.

05:20
Case Aiken
If I caught it, I would have been the other way, because I read this before Incredibles came out.

05:24
Jmike
Oh, yeah. And I was like, wait a second. I feel like that's familiar. I was like, the Incredibles. And this feels like this part or this book feels like the first part of the Incredibles, where, like, all the old golden age superheroes are out doing their things.

05:36
Zach
This is, like, almost the comic prequel for you.

05:39
Case Aiken
Yeah.

05:40
Zach
Because there is. There is, like, the McCarthyism that there is the registration and everything. So this is, like. This is basically incredible, the prequel.

05:48
Case Aiken
Yeah, it definitely could come off that way. You know, it feels. And I've got notes that I want to talk about a specific plot point in more detail later. But it does feel like very much a work that was ahead of its time. Like, I feel like themes that are going on here. Yeah, sure, it's not the first deconstructionist work by a long shot. You know, it's 10 years after Watchmen. But it is really one that has, like, the love of these earlier eras and is really introspective of it all. And I feel like that is a theme that has, like, continued into later stuff. Like, you know, I hate Civil War, but it has similar shades to Civil War in a lot of ways, too. Like, it has shades to a lot of books that would, like, come out later.

06:24
Zach
I mean, chief of which, I mean, like, this. This feels like. So, I'll be honest. I don't know. I. Starman was after this, right?

06:32
Case Aiken
Yes.

06:32
Zach
Okay. This feels like Robinson exploring a lot of themes that he wanted to get. Like, this felt like a. Like, him sort of, like, fleshing out the next 10 years of, like, what he wants to write about.

06:45
Case Aiken
It's definitely like, if you know the path for James Robinson, you can sort of feel like, okay, this is his first exploration of, like, D.C. And the stuff he wants to talk about. And Starman is, like, very much an immediate outgrowth of that. And. Fuck it, let's move. Like, I have a list of characters I want to talk about. Let's just move Starman up front.

07:02
Zach
This Is, you know, this the best. You lead us. This sound like, let's. Let's go where you want.

07:06
Case Aiken
Fuck, man. Starman is one of the best comic runs of all time. Yes. It's incredible.

07:12
Zach
Yeah.

07:13
Case Aiken
J. Mike, have you. Are you familiar with the 90s Starman run, like, where he has, like, the leather jacket and like, the big leather jacket?

07:20
Zach
Oh, yeah.

07:21
Jmike
I only know him from brief interactions with, like, Stargirl and stuff I've seen on the side.

07:27
Case Aiken
Okay.

07:28
Jmike
So, like.

07:29
Case Aiken
And they are related. The Stargirl series is a. A branch off of that daughter or.

07:33
Jmike
Daughter and dad type deal or. I don't remember.

07:37
Case Aiken
So. So the 90s starman is the story of Jack Knight, the. The son of Ted Knight, who was the star man in this, the original Star Man. And as with all the JSA superheroes, he has something that's keeping him young. So he's able to have like, a son who's in his, like, late 20s in. And it's in the 90s, so it's like he's friends with Wally west and Kyle Rayner and like, in D.C. 1 million, when. When the future Star man actually betrays them all, Kyle Rayner actually has like, whole bit where it's like, I have to tell Jack about this shit, and he's gonna be so upset. Wow.

08:09
Zach
I haven't. I haven't read DC1 million, but that's. That's good. That's good color.

08:13
Case Aiken
It's nice having a world where they're all connected. And it felt like A. The 90s had a good era of like, third generation sort of superheroes. Like the. It felt like a new modern era where, like, again, like, Wally west and Kyle Rayner were like, two of the biggest superheroes and, like, Jack Knights out there. And, you know, it felt like a lot of the characters who had been sidekicks had started to, like, take their own. And. And so the Starman series that James Robinson would go on to. To write was about. About this son. This. This younger son who actually wanted nothing to do with the family legacy, taking up the mantle and being, like, kind of ironic and a dick about it at the same time, but also, like, weirdly hopeful.

08:50
Case Aiken
Like, he had his dad, like, work on developing, like, flying cars for people and, like, really do the, you know, like, really contrast the, like, Reed Richards is a dick scenario. Like, being like, oh, you have all the super science. Can't people have it? Like, can't we get that out there? And there's like. Because it's. James Robinson is the writer on that. There's all these allusions to the Golden Age, as if this book actually happened in D.C. Continuity, which it definitely doesn't.

09:15
Zach
So I think I've only read the first two volumes. It was several years ago. It's been on kind of like my. I'm in the middle of a preacher reread, and then I think I'm going, like, that's kind of like my next 90s era. Reread is or reread Slash. Like, first read, basically. I did, like, volumes one and two, and it was beautiful, honestly. Like, I think the thing that you were talking about, right, like, late 20s, cynical, but hopeful, basically extreme. Gen X, like, very much like a Gen X take on that antihero sort of approach. And, like, almost like the Legacy, right?

09:54
Zach
Like, you think a lot about, like, Gen X and like, their relationship to the boomers and, like, their parents and sort of like the hopeful optimism of the 50s, 60s and 70s, and like, sort of like how that transitioned in the 80s and 90s and like, all the greed, like, the corporate greed and, you know, like the acid rain and everything. It's really interesting to see that manifested in a comic where you have the Golden Age superhero who literally has, like, you know, you can go back and read comics from, like, way back when and then. And then see the passing. Oh, the passing of the literal baton to, like, sort of like the, you know, like the cynical. The cynical. The Gen X cynic sort of thing was really interesting to see. Robinson, explorer. I still need to finish it, though.

10:40
Case Aiken
No, it's totally fine. And you will enjoy it. It is a big theme of books of this era, like I said, like, the Wally West Flash. There's this big theme of Legacy. It ties together all these different characters that DC had called Starman over the years and tried to create a unified kind of thesis for what Starman is about as a premise. Because, honestly, Starman is not a property that has ever really been that successful in terms of cultural cachet. Like, who knows who Starman is? Like, you see a kid walking around with a red T shirt with a big yellow star on it. It's probably Steven Universe and probably not Star Man.

11:17
Zach
Steven Universe is so good, too. I was thinking about that. I was like, I totally wear a Star Man Universe. And I thought, like, people would just think I'm like, a Steven Universe fan.

11:25
Case Aiken
Point.

11:25
Zach
And granted, I do really like that show, but it would be. It would be the wrong fandom, I think would be. I'd be out of my element on both, I guess, is what I'm saying on that side.

11:37
Case Aiken
Yeah, but. But Starman, like, this book has a legacy that goes into larger D.C. Stuff. So, like, there's. Aside from, like, the. The legacy of Starman, it's where the redemption of Solomon Grundy happens. It's where the redemption of Shade happens. And both. Shade has kind of, like, vacillated more so and, like, has always been like a gentleman thief. Okay, cool. Solomon Grundy has that. That iteration has then carried forward into additional works, particularly the Justice League Unlimited stuff. So this idea of it's a. A brute who sometimes is childish and, like, innocent in, as well as sometimes wrathful and. And destructive, like, is a theme that you see developed further. But the Golden Age launched into the. To the Starman run, and from Starman, James Robinson was then tapped to do the JSA revival that happened in the late 90s.

12:29
Case Aiken
First, there was some interest because of this, and they did a fifth week event that was just a. All right, we're going to, like, firmly set where the JSA is in this continuity, because after Zero Hour, they tried to wipe a lot of the JSA under the rug and, like, have you all forget everything.

12:45
Zach
What was that? Was it continuity?

12:47
Case Aiken
Well, part. Part of it was just like, all right, so it's 1993. Realistically, how many of these people are going to be around still at this point? Because Crisis had established that they're all in the same timeline. So you had to have, like, all right, well, how does this all sort of fit? And this book feels like it's trying to address some of those issues, but it's not in continuity, so it's its own kind of thing. But that JSA launch, which was shortly thereafter taken over by Geoff Johns, is one of the big things that made Geoff Johns, like, a major force creatively behind dc. Geoff Johns, by the way, got one.

13:19
Case Aiken
One of his earliest books was doing Stargirl, which he tied into Robinson's Star man stuff, because in Star man, we had established that the character sky man, who used to be the Star Spangled Kid, wore a belt that was developed by Starman and was using the segment technology, and they dealt with all of that. So when Stargirl comes in, it's already tied into this whole Starman universe. And then it actually kind of. She went from being her own version of the Star Spangled Kid to Star Girl, which is a really subtle shift because everyone just kind of called her Star anyway.

13:50
Zach
Okay.

13:51
Case Aiken
But that's, like, part of the rise of Geoff Johns. And Geoff Johns, obviously has had a huge impact on DC continuity going forward. So, like, getting back to the Golden Age, that is the root for a lot of what we would see throughout the 2000s and even into the 2000s. So super important and, like, Starman, by nature of being such a pivotal part of Robinson's, like, trajectory as a writer, then had such a huge, like, wake behind him of, like, creative talent, like, working on stuff. Meanwhile, the actual viewpoint character of the book is Johnny Quick. And this is the second book I ever saw Johnny Quick in. The first book was actually his death because I had a subscription to Impulse. Like, I had a mail in subscription to Impulse.

14:33
Case Aiken
The Bart Allen, the sidekick of the Flash back in the 90s, the grandson of the Silver Age Flash. And one of the first issues I got, once that subscription started, was the second to last chapter of Dead Heat, which is the death of Johnny Quick. So I had no idea who this guy fucking was. And I was like, oh, that's real weird. Wait, the other, like, the girl there is his daughter. Okay, interesting. This is all kind of fascinating. Like, he's becoming one with the Speed Force. It's a really moving scene. And then I picked up this book and I was like, oh, that's who this character is. That's the mother of the daughter that we. We see later on. They're spitting images of each other. Like, that was my exposure to it.

15:11
Case Aiken
And, like, around this time, Wade was getting into the Flash legacy and really dealing with that. And, you know, it was pretty popular. There were a lot of trades. I picked up a lot of those trades. So I got to read about, like, Johnny Quick being, like, brought into the 90s DC continuity. But here we get, like, a really three dimensional Johnny Quick.

15:29
Zach
Was this his first time exploring Quick? And do you think that he kind of, like, defined, I don't know, like, he's kind of like, what were talking about, like, him sketching out sort of, like what he wants to talk about over the next 10 years. Do you feel like his. His sort of, like, affinity with Quick was, like, something where he was sort of exploring and got to hash out further. Or is this, I guess, like, why. Do we know why he kind of picked Quick as, like, the point of view for Golden Age?

15:55
Case Aiken
If I had to guess, it's because Johnny Quick was actually, like, very popular in the 1940s.

15:59
Zach
Oh, okay.

16:00
Case Aiken
And in fact, was, like, outselling the Flash at some points, really. But the Flash is the character that got the Silver Age update and thus became the big. The big main character.

16:08
Zach
Interesting.

16:09
Case Aiken
But the reason why the Crime Syndicate speedster is. Johnny Quick is. Because in that reality, Johnny Quick was the more popular character.

16:16
Zach
Whoa, that's insane. Slow clap to Morrison for that little, like, I never.

16:23
Case Aiken
It goes back even further. We're talking, like, the Gil Kane era, like Justice Society or Justice League stuff, really, like Crisis on Earth 3 stuff.

16:31
Zach
So my only exposure to that was, what was it, the. The JLA or the JL Mirror? Was that the. The Morrison? Quietly.

16:39
Case Aiken
Yeah, the Earth.

16:40
Zach
Earth 2. That's what it was. Oh, damn. Okay. All right. So that's why they. So that's why. That's interesting. Okay, good to know, huh?

16:48
Case Aiken
Yeah. It's crazy to know that writers in the 60s were just as meta as they would go on to later be.

16:54
Zach
They just didn't. They didn't have the Internet to, like, appreciate it quite as much. That's a bummer. That's. The writers in the 60s are looking like, what Moore did in the 80s and what Morrison did in the 90s and 2000s. They're like, I did the same thing, guys. Come on. Come on.

17:09
Case Aiken
I was self referential, but the referential there was just less self to do.

17:13
Zach
It was. I was waiting for those. Those fan letters to write in and say, I saw what you did.

17:19
Case Aiken
Yeah, you did. I mean, there's a reason why the Human Torch was a member of the Fantastic Four. Like. Like, these people were still, like, fans of the stuff that they had done before, even if it's the same creative talents, you know, like a Kirby or Stan Lee who had been working in the Golden Age.

17:33
Zach
Right.

17:34
Case Aiken
But, you know, by the time you get to the 70s, you have people who grew up on all this material. Like, the fact that Gladiator on the Shi'ar Imperial Guard is called Gladiator is an allusion to, like. Oh, yeah, Superman's based on this book, the Gladiator by Philip Wiley.

17:48
Zach
Oh, I didn't know that.

17:49
Case Aiken
They're all giant nerds, and I love it.

17:52
Zach
That's really cool.

17:53
Case Aiken
But. But so they. They deal with Johnny Quick here, and they make him a much more developed character who is in a good position to sort of, like, understand the world that's going on. Like, he's kind of the Rorschach. He's kind of the night owl of the series. If you're going to compare it to Watchmen, like, he's a character.

18:08
Zach
Like, this is a mystery, and he's. He's definitely, like, kind of like the detective point of view, at the very.

18:12
Case Aiken
Least, like, kind of guiding it. I mean. Yeah, yeah, you Know, it's interesting because he's. While he's not explicitly like the best guy in the world, he is a person everyone feels comfortable coming to and talking to. And so he becomes this hub of information. Like he knows everyone's secret identities and they make a point that not everyone knows each other's identities. He's super fast. So there. There's that thing, although that actually doesn't show up until the very end of the issue of.

18:35
Zach
Really? Yeah.

18:36
Case Aiken
But as a filmmaker, he's like kind of studying in this. He gives us the info dump that we need because he's working on a documentary on World War II superheroes and so forth. So that's always like kind of a fun element which like that to me.

18:48
Zach
I think like starts to really underline the cleverness of Robinson's approach to this in that like, we don't get the private. This is a mystery, but the main character, or at least like the main perspective is not a private eye, it's a documentary filmmaker. Which I think is really. That's a really good device to.

19:06
Case Aiken
No one knows it's a mystery until the mystery is like underway.

19:09
Zach
Exactly, exactly. It's a really clever term and I think really kind of underlines how Robinson was thinking about this and sort of constructing. Constructing the point of view kind of in a non ham handed way, which is. Or ham fisted way, which I think that was really cool.

19:27
Case Aiken
Like, how amazing is that end of issue three where he gets off the phone with one group and then immediately gets another call from. Oh yeah, from Carter hall. And it's just like, oh man, I need to bring up my Rolodex for all the people I know right now because this is big.

19:42
Zach
That was great. Yeah, that was one of my favorite sequences too.

19:46
Case Aiken
And he's a flawed character, but he's an introspective character, which I really like. The fact that one of the big threads throughout this is that he has this bad relationship with Liberty Belt, who we know at this point canonically is the mother of his daughter.

20:00
Zach
So I didn't know that. I wasn't aware with that. That. That's pretty neat.

20:03
Case Aiken
Yeah. Jesse, quick fun factoid. I'm. I'm going to write a Superman analog thread on her at some point. But she has both the powers of her father, which is the super speed equivalent to the Flash, and super strength, not, you know, not a slouch in super strength equivalent to her mom. And so that's a pretty nice combo right there of being super fast and able to break a Car.

20:26
Zach
That's kind of brilliant. Quick question. Was Johnny Quick, was he a documentary filmmaker in anything but this?

20:34
Case Aiken
You know what? I don't know.

20:35
Zach
Okay. Because I want to. I want to also want to point this out. Someone who can move super fast and someone else who is studying the time between frames is also super meta and kind of brilliant on that point. So if Robinson did invent that hat tip to you. Robinson. Because that's. That's basically like. That's kind of. That's really clever to have someone who can move at super fast speeds, to be like a great film editor. That's not. That's. That's. That's good. I like that.

21:03
Case Aiken
But, you know, it's just a general. He functions mostly as a viewpoint character. While he does have a lot of perspective on how things go, he ultimately doesn't change too much of the course of things. Even his. His biggest contribution, which is at the very end. He's still not the direct player in it all, but it's still just nice. Nice to see this character who, like Johnny Quick, I. I really adore because he has a mathematical formula that he visualizes by saying aloud that allows him to understand how speed and energy work so he can move super fast. Dope stuff. The fact that includes flight, which I did mention before, also dope because, like, if you can move that fast, it's kind of hard to believe that you would be stuck on the ground. And it.

21:45
Zach
It.

21:45
Case Aiken
Yeah, like I said, it's just, like, nice having this character who gets to check in with everyone. Never is, like, too judgmental of everyone else, that everyone else thinks he looks tired. You know, marital problems, like, very relatable. And once he is aware that there's a mystery, all of it comes together because he is the nexus for everyone. Another major character that we are introduced to is Paul Kirk, the Manhunter. As with every character on this list, there is some sort of weird continuity nightmare slash, like, awesomeness to it all. Like Manhunter, if you recognize, looks just like the. The Manhunters from dc, which are the robots the Guardians made to act as, like, the proto Green Lantern Corps. That's because someone tried to explain, like, oh, yeah, well, like, Paul Kirk was influenced by them subconsciously.

22:25
Case Aiken
He was an agent of the Manhunters and whatnot. So he opens the story being amnesiac and has to, like, sort is just on the run, which works out for him pretty well because they never discussed this, but he has a healing factor, like Wolverine.

22:37
Jmike
Okay, cool. That was one.

22:39
Case Aiken
That's why he Keeps on, like, falling out of buildings and not dying.

22:41
Jmike
Like, in. They were in the homeless shelter. I'm like, I know. He got shot multiple times.

22:45
Case Aiken
Yeah, yeah.

22:47
Zach
He. He.

22:47
Case Aiken
He has, basically, Wolverine, except he has knives instead of claws built into his hands. And that was, like, always his shtick. So he's on the run, like, amnesiac, and, like, is trying to figure out what's going on. He has nightmares about an eagle being torn apart by rats and by German scientists. And that's a big illusion to what the actual plot of this is. But we don't know that for the first 2.5 issues. But it's, like, fun having this character because, like, the Manhunter name has been used a lot. As you know, a lot of these characters have had names that have been used a lot, but this is the original one. This sort of Manhunter is a really popular name, and I believe there's a copyright dispute with two Manhunter characters.

23:24
Case Aiken
And this is technically Manhunter 2, but they came out within, like, two months of each other. One of those things.

23:30
Jmike
So, like, normal stuff.

23:31
Case Aiken
Yeah, exactly. Comic.

23:33
Jmike
Normal comic book stuff.

23:34
Case Aiken
But so he makes for the. The more of the. The down on the, like, the down and dirty Rorschach character in this all. Like, he actually has a mystery that he's trying to solve because it's confirmed pretty early on that people are actually out to kill him.

23:46
Zach
Right, right. And also, it's almost like Robertson split the Rorschach character up into two, and he gave Kirk enough to do Rorschach in Watchmen. Doesn't realize he's crazy. Right. Like, he's the sanest person he knows, whereas Kirk knows that something's wrong and he's trying. And half of the. Half of the story is really just him trying to survive and then also deal with something that's haunting. He can't put his finger on what it is until the aforementioned end of issue three. Part of the mystery is in Kirk's mind, specifically, which is kind of like a neat sort of lead up into kind of, like, the ramping action.

24:24
Case Aiken
Then we've got Alan Scott, who my favorite.

24:28
Zach
I mean, he was great.

24:30
Case Aiken
He's amazing in this. We haven't really talked about the big theme of this book, which is that this is the golden age of DC without Superman. And so this is Superman for this book. It's not the most obvious Superman, if you're looking at it, if you're just flipping through the pages, but Alan Scott, the Green Lantern, fills that role for, like, the time before this he's the big guy. He's, like, a foot taller than everyone else. He's got all this burden on him. He's so powerful throughout this whole thing. Like, he is kind of the Dr. Manhattan of this whole story, where he's constantly beset by just, like, how much power he has and how much restraint he has to go through to not use it.

25:09
Jmike
Yeah.

25:09
Case Aiken
In the public sphere, because he is.

25:11
Jmike
He has that whole monologue in his head at the first book when he's talking about, like, the atomic bomb in his ring and how. How much. How similar they are.

25:21
Case Aiken
Yeah. He's talking to Johnny and saying that, like, yeah, I could just have done this a million times over.

25:26
Zach
Oh, man. Dude, I love. One of my favorite moments with him was he talks about his power again. This is, like, I think really underlines how smart Robinson was in constructing this. But, like, he talks about his power in one. I think it was issue where he thwarts another, like, a kind of like a bad Sportsmaster. And there's, like, a moment where he, like, feels for where his ring was and Sportsmaster notes it, and he's like missing something. And it was just sort of like, forced to habit, I guess. And then he, like, goes back into it. And what I love is. So this is. This whole series felt pretty truncated to me. Like, especially, like, we keep on referencing Watchmen. Watchmen was 12 issues. This is literally four.

26:05
Zach
So this, I feel like, packs a lot of the same amount of content into a much smaller space. But the fact that you just kept on getting this. I think Alan Scott is in this for maybe 5, 10 pages of 150 pages. Like, maybe like, closer to 15.

26:24
Case Aiken
But more than that, there are several characters. He's in it a lot more than Miss America.

26:29
Jmike
Yeah.

26:29
Zach
Okay. Okay, maybe I feel like. Then I will say this. It feels like he's only in it for 15 pages to me.

26:37
Case Aiken
Well, he's definitely distracted. Like, there's lots of stuff going on with, like, that's keeping him from being the big gun, the big guy.

26:43
Zach
Right. With the McCarthy play against his radio.

26:46
Case Aiken
Exactly. Yeah. And so there are a lot of pages where we talk about how, like, you know, there's, like, a writer of his that commits suicide. There are a lot of people who are under pressure for it all. Like, he's the one who is most directly addressing the who ack issue, which is a big thing of the 50s. That, like, this was my introduction to that element of, like, the Red Scare. And, like, the amount of craziness that the US government can go through.

27:08
Zach
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, that was a great. I appreciated Scott being kind of like the, I guess, like the, I guess the launching board that Robinson could kind of explore some of the other themes of the era. And just like that, basically you get a reference in issue one to like his amount of power and what. And how he didn't. He wasn't able to leverage over World War II. And then in the second one, thwarting like thwarting an actual supervillain just with his bare hands, which you don't really get that often. Right, right.

27:43
Case Aiken
Or just at least like 6 foot.

27:45
Zach
5 and like 6 foot 5 and just a monster. Yes. It's just awesome. Yeah. I love scouts.

27:52
Case Aiken
Every non powered superhero, every single one who's like, oh, look at me, I've been trained by the government to be the ultimate assassin or whatnot. Alan Scott could beat up without a power ring.

28:00
Zach
Exactly. Alan Scott.

28:03
Case Aiken
It's Ivan Drago.

28:07
Zach
Is. He is Jason Bourne and Alvin Draco rolled up into one and he owns a bunch of radio stations. Yeah, yeah.

28:15
Case Aiken
And that's also an issue that like TV is becoming popular and he's losing like funding as a result. And he's trying to like the funding he needs to pay the lawyers to protect his writers because they're all being accused of being communists. Like, it's a really interesting plot going on there, but it's also a very adult plot. You know, the end of issue three is one of my favorite panels in comics. And it's a trite panel in terms of like, in creativity. It's Alan Scott standing in front of a statue of Atlas and his giant frame obscures the Atlas statue, so he has the weight of the world on his shoulders. And like Atlas is probably one of the two most used figures from Greek mythology, along with alongside Hermes. And like that's partially because all doctors use like the seduce of Hermes.

28:59
Case Aiken
So like that's everywhere, but also all couriers. Like, but Atlas is like the ultimate metaphor for like adult responsibilities. Like, you're standing there, you have the weight of the world on your shoulders. In his case, it's not just like his family, it's all of these people who work for him that he sees as a parental figure. But he, you know, he's their protector. Every. Like his entire purpose is helping out all these people he cares so much about. And he knows that he could, but he doesn't want to do it that way because he doesn't want to. Like, he can't let himself just be like, I'm gonna take over the. The world. I have this burden of power. This is. This is that question that we always have with Superman. Like, the idea that, like, how nice would it be if someone was.

29:42
Case Aiken
Who was powerful was good. And that's Alan Scott here. Like, this is why he's my favorite Green Lantern alongside Kyle Rayner. Like, he's pretty dope. He's amazing, and this is such a great one. And looking at it now, like, with the modern lens of him being a closeted homosexual, I think there's also an interesting aspect there because they don't have relationship stuff in this. Like, he. You know, he has kids. He's been married a couple of times, like in the actual comics. But thinking about that additional layer there where it's his own person who is conflicted, maybe even in denial about who he really is, turning all of that energy into him, trying to be as protective as he can be of everyone else, I think is an interesting psychological component to look at it from.

30:27
Case Aiken
And one of the few reads I get now in 2022 that is more developed than it would have been in 1998.

30:34
Zach
Has a lot been done with Scott. Like, I know. He's, like, showed up in, like, a couple of annuals that I've read, like, Green Lantern annuals and that sort of thing. I guess. Like, he's probably figured heavily in, like, the JSA runs afterwards.

30:49
Case Aiken
Yeah, he's been pretty consistently in publication all through this. And I actually was familiar with him already because he was consistently showed up in, like, Green Lantern stuff. So he. Yeah, he's. He was all through JSA in the new. The new 52 era. He was a big part of that. And that's where they introduced the idea of him being gay. And then, like, that became. When they. They did all the, like, the rebirth events and everything to sort of, like, bring the multiverse together yet again, tried to streamline continuity. They said no. Actually, the main Alan Scott has also always been gay. And, like, that's been a part of this character. And you know what? They handled it pretty well. Like. Like, they.

31:27
Case Aiken
They did a really good job of stressing that this is a character who, from the time where he, like, when he was active, couldn't really admit that about himself and was such, like, so caught up in the trappings of the time and trying to put on a good front and be responsible. Like, he. He was a person caught up with. With the burden of adulthood and thought that, like, his duty Was to be, you know, successful as a businessman, have a family, do all. Do all these things. And now he's starting to realize that, like, no, that's not right. And, like, the world is. Is changed, and I can really be who. Who I am. I think that's really cool.

32:02
Case Aiken
I, like, It's a really nice development that, you know, is difficult to handle appropriately, but I think has been done well when it's been done appropriately.

32:10
Zach
Right, Very cool.

32:12
Case Aiken
Then let's move on to Bob Daly, AKA Fat man, which I thought that was a joke.

32:18
Jmike
And then I. Yeah, I did, too.

32:20
Case Aiken
And then I looked it up.

32:21
Jmike
The real person.

32:22
Zach
Yeah, good old golden age, right up there with Matter Eater Lad.

32:28
Case Aiken
I like Bob, though. He's. He's a really nice character in this. You know, it's funny coming right off of Alan Scott in retrospect. I looked at it, and in issue three, where he's been, like, living, like, off with Paul Kirk for a while, he's just like, oh, yeah, we're going off to visit some family and so forth. I'm like, does everyone think they're a gay couple? And there is actually an element where I, like, I kind of read that. I'm like, oh, you know what? That's fine. He clearly has, like, love for Tex Thompson at the beginning and is so hurt by, like, that relationship dissolving. And that's an interesting read right there. But regardless, he is such a moral person, you know?

33:04
Case Aiken
Like, he is the person that is the salvation for Paul Kirk, who's all in hiding throughout this whole thing, despite the fact that he is the butt of everyone's jokes. He's the sidekick that no one cares for. He's kind of the Jimmy Olsen in that regard. Like, someone being like, oh, we've put aside these, like, past trappings. We've moved on. And he's like, no, I still want to be there and do the right thing.

33:24
Zach
He's. He's almost like a. He's almost like a robin. That didn't take. Yeah, he's like. He's almost like a. Like, if Batman had, like, his first psychic was just like. Just not quite, like, not quite. Quite coordinated enough to pull off the flips. And then Batman's like, all right, we're just gonna. It's you, it's me. It's not yet. I'm sorry, man. I'm really sorry. I also get. What's the name of the Marvel character? Is it Buckethead? I'm also getting Bucket. I also get Buckethead vibes. Just like, I'm Googling, like, his costume right now, and I'm wondering if that was.

33:58
Case Aiken
He looks a lot like the 40s Red Tornado, which is, like, threw me for a long time.

34:04
Zach
Oh, interesting. Okay.

34:06
Case Aiken
Because the 40s red tornado is also a stout person with a bucket on his head kind of design. And I don't have a ton to say aside from, like, oh, it's just nice having a character who's very much like an every man in this group. Like, literally no powers, like, in the scenario. And how much of a difference just being a nice guy can be. Like, he is the. He is the thing that brings Paul out of his, like, weird, feral phase at the start, and. And ultimately, he's the one who actually sees the best in the world that we're living in. Like, that. That year that they spend when they're in hiding, waiting for Carter hall to come back to America. Like, he sets down roots in this, like, Midwestern town, and everyone loves them.

34:43
Case Aiken
Like, they, like, really have a good time there. That actually feels like, you know, the. The cliche 1950s America.

34:50
Zach
Yeah, yeah, I totally see that.

34:53
Jmike
Right? He really does have. Just have a bucket on his head. Okay.

34:57
Zach
He does. Yeah. Yeah. I think we're looking at the same image search. Also kind of reminds me of Saiyan Gamgee from Lord of the Rings in that, like, he's sort of. He's the everyman whose optimism ultimately is, like, the tip towards the good outcome that the story actually needs.

35:14
Case Aiken
Yeah, or like, a Sancho Panza.

35:16
Zach
Yeah, yeah.

35:18
Case Aiken
Like, he feels like a squire, but one who is, like, jolly. He's not. Like, squires come usually in the form of, like, lanky teenagers, but sometimes you have, like, a fat, jolly character to serve as your companion, and that. This feels right for this character, and it's nice. That role isn't required to be linked to one particular person, because initially he's linked up to Tex Thompson, but that's broken at the very start of this, and he still serves as that emotional support for people who needs him then. Let's talk about Our Man.

35:51
Zach
Our man felt the grittiest of the reboots, to be honest. That was where we got some good old 90s grime in. In the 50s superheroes, I'm going to be honest.

36:03
Case Aiken
Yeah. Those drug trips when he's under the powers of Miracle.

36:07
Zach
Yeah, yeah. That felt like something more would write.

36:11
Case Aiken
Whereas that could always be a part of miracle. It's. It's not in this. It's very explicitly, just this one time that it happens to him. But, like, that could just be a thing. He takes the drug. He's literally got superpowers. He's like, in the caliber of like golden age Superman. And also could just be tripping balls.

36:28
Zach
Yeah. Yeah, that was cool. I'll be honest. There are like, there's a handful of premises that I wish had more. Either more screen time in this or more screen time in other series. And actually, you could probably tell me, like, where these themes are explored more. But our man's experiences while under sort of like that, under the thrall of that drug was one thing I was like, I don't think I've seen that interplay between being a superhero and also tripping balls. Ironically, Morrison hasn't done that yet, I don't think, outside of something like the filth. And so it was a really interesting sort of concept that Robinson introduced here.

37:13
Case Aiken
I will recommend to you. You should check out Donny Cates book Buzzkill.

37:18
Zach
Oh, okay.

37:19
Case Aiken
Which is a very person who, when they take a substance, it gives them superpowers based on the substance they take.

37:26
Zach
Oh, okay. Yikes.

37:28
Case Aiken
Wait, so when he gets drunk, he feels invincible and it's actually kind of invincible, man. Okay, yeah, it's worth checking out. I really adored it, but. But this is. It sets up our man pretty well. It gives him kind, like, he's a D plot in this. Like, his doesn't really interact with anyone else until we find out what's going on. And they're like, our man can't have anything wrong going on. And fortunately, he actually has kind of resolved the issues by the time, like, he's brought into the larger mystery. But because, like, can you imagine if they had brought him in and he's like, oh, my powers only work for 24 minutes. Or, oh, every time I use my powers, I trip. Fucking balls.

38:03
Jmike
Balls, man.

38:05
Zach
I'm feeling it, bro.

38:06
Case Aiken
Yeah. Like, his arc is going off on the side and we check in with him every now and then and he's like, yep, still working on this drug, man. It's given weird trips right now. I. I do like that they call out. You know, like, the 40s had a lot of superheroes who were drug based in their superpowers. And I like that they call out that he feels like an addict. Like, he's like, oh, I've. I've neutralized the, like, the physiological addiction. But like, just the idea of being able to take a pill and have all this power and do something, like, my heart races and like, I feel so good and I miss it every time. I'm not that way. Fuck, I'm an addict.

38:42
Zach
Yeah.

38:43
Case Aiken
Yeah, is a really interesting point. It's not. It's not just that he's like. He's not addicted chemically, right. But he loves being our man.

38:51
Zach
Except for the 24. I mean, like, there's also, you see, like, the diminishing returns too, right. Like, his hits aren't lasting as long as they normally do. It's actually. I mean, it's actually very on the nose, but also pretty excellent analog to actual drug addiction. That's good. That's a. It's. It's again, that 90s grunge that is sort of like mixing sort of like recasting some of the things that we saw in the 50s and 60s that I'm sure, like, Robinson grew up watching and reading.

39:20
Case Aiken
So moving on. So we already mentioned Liberty Bell. So she is Johnny Quick's ex wife. And she, at the opening of this is. They're separated, they're not formally divorced, and she is living with Johnny Law, who is the tarantula who became a superhero so he could write a book about it.

39:36
Jmike
Booster Gold.

39:40
Case Aiken
So they're off, like, kind off doing their own thing for the most part. She's fairly successful, he's not. But it's like, nice to check in with them so you can kind of see the other side of, like, the depression that Johnny Quick is in throughout this whole book. And Tarantula is like just a way worse example because he has. He wrote that one book and has writer's block and, like, can't get anything on paper and is just like drinking his sorrows away for three issues. And in issue four, he's like, no, I've changed. I'm gonna win back Libby. I love Liberty Bell. And then, you know, stuff happens in the fourth issue and those plans go awry.

40:13
Zach
I haven't said much about Paul Smith, which is a. Which is a bummer because this is beautifully illustrated. Oh, yeah, that shot when he's pouring out his booze into the sink is especially pretty. The Atlas shot with Alan Scott, absolutely amazing. Like the cross hatching or the not even crosshatch just hatching that he kind of like used uses to display the volume and then the bit. I think he used a similar technique with Tarantula when he's pouring his booze out. And it's absolutely beautiful. I really beautiful work here by Smith. So sorry. We can get. We can continue. I just want to.

40:47
Case Aiken
No, no, no.

40:47
Zach
That was like.

40:48
Case Aiken
That was we should bring up Paul Smith as much as we can.

40:50
Zach
Yeah, yeah.

40:51
Case Aiken
Because the art in this book is amazing.

40:53
Zach
It really is.

40:54
Case Aiken
It has a style that feels antiquated, but at the same time is so detailed and modern in spots. It. You know, there's so much care going into it, and yet it feels so retro. So we. We talked about Star Man. We didn't talk that much about Ted Knight, the actual Star man of this book. And his. His is a big theme that, like, everyone's feeling to a lesser degree than him. But in his scenario, he's really upset about the atom bomb. He feels that he created the atom bomb by virtue of having been a collaborator with Einstein. And like everything that he's accomplished, he. He owes in some regard to working with other scientists, including Einstein. And then the reverse is that he feels that his own contributions to the scientific community created a weapon as terrible as it was.

41:38
Case Aiken
And so he is in terrible shape throughout this whole book.

41:42
Zach
Yeah. Being torn apart by his own conscience, essentially. Really. You know, again, another. Another shout out. The scene where he's floating up, basically, he finishes the rod and is kind of like trying to make a decision between what's the moral thing to do with the full page spread? And the lightning is just absolutely gorgeous, actually. So, I'm sorry, I have a thing. I have the book, like, right up in front of me page, like 113, where you get the starfield behind him, and it looks like some sort of. Some sort of like, airbrush, like, splatter effect or airbrush or something like that. That's just incredible. This is. This is such a good scene.

42:23
Case Aiken
Yeah. I mean, really, you can see how Robinson would go on to really care about this particular franchise where the weight of this morality is so important here. And, you know, like, there's a scene where he's floating and he's created the perfect version of his. What used to be a gravity rod and is now a cosmic control rod. And he's like, I could just let go, and then I would go out on the highest moment of my life. And that's, you know, it's a lot.

42:51
Zach
Yeah, it's a lot like, you want to talk. He feels deep guilt about the scientific progress that he's made. He's made this rod is like another sort of, like, personification of that progress. And he thinks to himself, the right thing, to me, feels like letting go. Right. Like letting go and then dropping. Falling back to Earth. And yet he can't do it. And it's also kind of beautiful because then like, kind of ask us. Story progresses, it becomes a key part in the story itself. Like, basically, had he given up to despair, this story would have had a pretty significantly different outcome. So it's, you know, more. More poetic, sort of just pretty beautiful stuff from Robinson and. Robinson and Smith. This. This is like, a pretty pivotal scene. And I didn't realize it until the end of the book. And even, like.

43:46
Zach
Even now, just, like, talking through it with you, I'm like, oh, yeah. This scene was actually a big deal in the entire arc of the story, and not just with Starman's arc.

43:59
Case Aiken
Yeah. And of course, we have to mention that the cosmic control rod is the weapon that ultimately resolves everything at the very end, even if it's being used in a less sophisticated way.

44:09
Zach
Yeah. The control rod and a bus. Yes.

44:16
Case Aiken
Hawkman. So this is the. This is my real introduction to Golden Age Hawkman.

44:21
Zach
I'm gonna be honest. This is my favorite iteration of him I've ever seen. This guy's great.

44:27
Case Aiken
Everyone thinks he's going real crazy here. He's like, what the fuck is up with this guy? He thinks he's, like a dead pharaoh.

44:34
Zach
I got, like, real Joe Bluth vibes from him whenever they step in. And he's like. He's like, only in this time, Michael. He's great. I really enjoyed him.

44:44
Case Aiken
Yeah. Super weird character. But I love it. And I love. I love the. The willingness for all these superheroes to think everyone else is really weird, you know, because, like, a lot of these guys are very weird when you think about it. But you're like, oh, yeah.

44:59
Jmike
Like, no, we're normal.

45:00
Case Aiken
When you're in a comic, sometimes you don't realize it.

45:03
Zach
He doesn't realize he's crazy. And then it cuts to the other panel where the guy's saying he doesn't realize he's crazy.

45:10
Case Aiken
Right. And, like, you can kind of see this being the influence for, like, the JLU Hawkman, who is also, like, a. Like, everyone thinks he's crazy. He thinks he's resurrected from, like, ancient pharaoh. This is insane. But, you know, Hawkman's hard enough to explain, so you might as well just call him crazy and move on.

45:25
Zach
Right.

45:25
Jmike
Is this. Is that where they got the inspiration for the JLU from this incarnation? Okay, cool.

45:32
Case Aiken
I mean, that was always a thing about the Golden Age Hawkman, but, like, this is definitely the one where they're like, maybe think. Maybe people think he's weird. We got Captain Triumph and Tigress.

45:41
Jmike
Yeah, Captain Triumph, that was the guy I'm like, does anyone ever see. Think that he's crazy because he's like, talking over his shoulder the entire time?

45:48
Case Aiken
Or do they know, make a point of him trying to, like, kind of suppress it, but no one seems to be aware that he's got a ghost just like floating around him at all times.

45:58
Zach
Again, like, strong telltale heart vibes with this. Right. But only manifested as the ghost of his brother. Really good. I don't. I don't know if, like, any prestige comics have been done with that, but that's a great premise too, that I'd love to see revisited.

46:12
Case Aiken
Yeah, right. Like the fact that the two twins come together like the one soul in the afterlife and one soul in the living. And that like, gives them. Yeah.

46:20
Zach
Like, they should be ghost hunters. Like, I'm just. This is my pitch. This is my pitch. Same dynamic, but they're like, they have to like, there's some ghosts coming over into the real world and they're having to deal with that because that's just a. That's a great dynamic. Especially with his brother kind of being the skis. Like kind of like the worst human. The wrong brother died. It was actually the right brother in this case. And he's kind of like the sketchy one who then has to join and then it sort of manifests the sketchiness sort of like the worst. The lack of inhibitions with sort of like the other brothers sort of like plays out whenever they're combined. That's a really cool concept.

47:02
Case Aiken
Yeah. The whole sequence of the brother being like, come on, man, let me take over your body and let's go get a hooker.

47:07
Zach
Yes. Holy cow. Yeah. I mean, like, that was the bit where I was like, had to. I was like, did I read that right? I need to reread that page. Yeah, his brother, his. His. His dead ghost brother was trying to get him to let him possess his body so he could go grab a hooker. It was crazy. Yeah.

47:23
Case Aiken
Like, I love that relationship. I. You know, because, like, sure, it's like, it's deconstructionist and like, ooh, it's dark and gritty being like, blah, blah, but. But also like, they're twin brothers and one died. And when they come together, they are like, they're powerful. They're like geo force level powerful. Like, they're super strong enough to like break a car apart and like, can fly and is durable, but they're not going to fight Superman level kind of power. It's kind of like the Marvel. Captain Marvel in some Regards. And it's kind of like. I mean, it's kind of like the Shazam. Captain Marvel. Also, like, this, like, fusion dance kind of form. I think it's a really cool power set. It's a character that has not really been used that much since the 40s.

48:07
Case Aiken
I'm sure Roy Thomas did something with All Star Squadron with them.

48:11
Zach
Yeah. I also just realized. I think Todd McFarlane did something with this concept, too. Not this specific character, but Haunt Back. He did a new character, his first character since Spawn, and I think that was a brother. It was a brother.

48:28
Case Aiken
Yeah.

48:28
Zach
Like, where one was a ghost or something like that. So I think it's been explored a little bit. I'd like to see it exploded with a little bit more nuance than what I see from MacFarlane, but not a slight. It's a really interesting sort of dynamic that Robinson sort of teases out here.

48:46
Case Aiken
Yeah, but Lance, the living brother, becomes infatuated. So he doesn't come in the first issue. He comes in issue two and is set up as a. A financial backer for Tex Thompson's political career. And as a result, he is there for, like, some of these initiatives to bring former supervillains into the. Like, into the fold as, like, agents of the U.S. Government. And so he is introduced to Tigris, who people may also know as Huntress, who.

49:14
Jmike
Oh, that's. That's what that is. Okay, cool. Not.

49:17
Case Aiken
Not like the.

49:18
Zach
Not.

49:18
Case Aiken
Not like Helena Burton. Burton Delhi Huntress, like, but the golden age Huntress character. So if you watch Young justice, there's a lot of allusions to that character, because the mom. The wife of Sportsmaster, is that character. So he links up with her, and it's this interesting duo of this rich guy who can turn in to, if he gave in, a being that's not Superman, but pretty close. And then he's got, like, a Catwoman type friend who's, like, really good. You know, she's. She's there, so she can be the thief in this whole group. She can easily, like, break into spaces and pick locks and so forth. And I love all the times that, like, once she becomes a character, I'm like. I love her. Like, she.

49:54
Case Aiken
She's so down for just, like, breaking and entering and is great for, like, all these fights at the end when she makes the stand. It's, like, such a good, like, fight for her. And then Lance, who doesn't want to, like, ever allow his brother back out, like, he. He's tired of feeling like his. His brother has to control his body for them to be a hero. He's like, no, I can do it on my own, even without powers. And, like, you know, makes a final stand and, like, unlike, say, our man, who is like, I gotta kick the mirror, clo. But, like, never does in this book, like Lance actually does, unfortunately, it does not go well for him, but he does. Which brings us to the characters who are more like, caught up in the. In the actual evil plot.

50:35
Case Aiken
The Atom is a patsy for it all and kind of his cells are used to sort of make things happen.

50:41
Zach
Yeah, he's sort of the patient Zero of. Are we doing spoilers? I was just.

50:49
Case Aiken
I was gonna say, I mean, we put out spoilers, but I did put the last character on this list for the reason.

50:54
Zach
Yeah, true, true. Okay, cool. He was. Yeah, he's sort of the engine of. I can't remember his proper human name in terms of, like, the whole plot. He was sort of the crux of that for sure.

51:08
Case Aiken
I mean, I've always liked the Al Pratt Adam. It's like, kind of funny where it's like, oh, yeah, the Golden Age Adam was just a short guy and then later he was super strong. Right.

51:19
Zach
Wonderful Golden Age logic to it.

51:21
Case Aiken
Yeah, I mean, he's the. He's called him Adam because he was shocked.

51:24
Zach
We called him Fat man because he was fat. Yeah, yeah.

51:29
Case Aiken
But like, he's the Godfather of Atom Smasher slash Nuklon, who is going to be in the Black Adam movie. And it's like a big part of.

51:36
Zach
Really?

51:37
Case Aiken
Yeah, yeah. We've seen shots of it already from the trailer.

51:40
Zach
That's cool.

51:42
Case Aiken
But, yeah, he's a bruiser. He's like an early atomic powered superhero in that he actually is like nuclear super strength. So kind of like the Hulk, but short. And throughout this whole thing, he's, like, trying to prove himself. And by the end, he's, like, cooled off because he's like, oh, I got manipulated. That was bad. We do get to see a fastball special with him and our man, which is delightful. I like that hour, man. The big strong guy throws the little guy.

52:10
Zach
It's a little DC version of the Cannonball Special or Fastball Special. Yeah, fastball special. Yeah.

52:19
Case Aiken
Moving on to Johnny Thunder, the other dupe in this whole situation. So interesting point here, which is that Johnny Thunder being duped as bad as he was and having the particular relationship with his. With his thunderbolts is why they weren't really able to participate in the final battle. Because that thunderbolt is powerful. Yeah. Morrison Established that it's a fifth dimensional imp.

52:43
Zach
Really?

52:44
Case Aiken
Yeah.

52:45
Zach
Which run was this in.

52:46
Case Aiken
In the. In the JLA run, in the jail, which was coming out around this time, it was like, what if it's always been just a fifth dimensional imp? And so they. That's pretty cool. And they're like, yeah, genies, leprechauns, all this stuff. It's just all the same thing. They're all like extra dimensional beings.

53:00
Zach
That totally makes sense. There's like, I could. I could see that. I almost got. Looking at his design. Oh, shoot. What's the Willingham series? Fables. Like, I almost got like a kind of like a Fables sort of vibe from that. So that's, that's pretty dope that Morrison kind of took it the full, like that full direction.

53:20
Case Aiken
And I've always liked the thunderbolts and the dynamic of like, he's like a summoner, you know, like that kind of relationship in terms of superpowers. Like, it's not internalized things. He says a magic word and a genie shows up who can do good stuff for him is like, kind of cool in, like, its own unique thing. That genie is real powerful, though. And so it's like to offset it being so powerful, you have a dumbass controlling.

53:45
Zach
There was a. There was a beautiful moment. Was it. Was it between the thunderbolt where he said something to the effect of like, he was confronted with the truth and he said, no, that would mean that I was fooled all along or something like that. That was wonderful, you know, great, you.

54:03
Case Aiken
Know, saying it to the thunderbolt and the thunderbolts. Like, shouldn't we listen, master? And he's like, no, I belong here. This is the first time I've ever felt, like the place like, I'm in the right spot.

54:13
Zach
That was. That was a good. That was a good four panels. And again, super dense comic. Like, that was a really moving moment. That was maybe three or four panels.

54:22
Case Aiken
Like the Adam and Johnny Thunder exemplify a thing that I didn't understand at the time. But like, frankly, in this modern era where we have some of the weird shit that's been going on in the world. Like, you're like, oh, I feel it here. These are the moments where you see people who want to be good being duped by, like, bad political actors.

54:41
Zach
Yeah.

54:42
Case Aiken
And that's really interesting.

54:43
Zach
Which is like, you know, I mean, like, perfect. Again, coming to grips with what we kind of like, see idealize, or at least like they saw idealized at the time. And then like, Recognizing all the terrible shit that happened during that. Like, I almost look at that interchange between those two as like, you know, almost like kind of like the writer talking to himself or like that was like almost a personal narration going on.

55:12
Case Aiken
But I feel like it's very prescient considering the era. Like this is not that time where were having these conversations.

55:19
Zach
Exactly, exactly. So that was good, man. I liked it. That was, that was a great four panels. It was a great moment.

55:27
Case Aiken
Well, and like also it is contrasted immediately with the Atom having that realization when he's confronted with it. And like he's initially duped, but like once the evidence is sufficient, he actually like is like, oh my God, no, I screwed up real bad.

55:41
Zach
And then immediately kind of like, yeah, turning, doing 180.

55:46
Case Aiken
Meanwhile, a character who is not duped by any of the bad stuff going on here, who fully is aware of everything, just doesn't fucking care is the Golden Age Robot Man.

55:56
Jmike
That's who that is. Is that the same robot man from the Doom Squad or Doom Patrol?

56:01
Case Aiken
Well, no. So this is the golden age version of the character who was created by Jerry Siegel, the creator of Superman. So the, the Cliff Steel version from Doom Patrol is an update. It's the same way that like Johnny Storm is the second Human Torch or that Barry Allen is the second Flash. It's an unrelated Silver age character who is drawing inspiration from the preceding one. So the robot man of this is the same situation of like human brain and robot body type thing. But at this point we see a character who has given up on everything. Like he has given up on his human components, his lack of sensation. He doesn't care anymore. He is, he just wants everything to work like a well oiled machine and is fine with all the collateral damage.

56:45
Zach
I will be honest, I kept on. So this is my struggle with a lot of reading this book, but I would say especially with the first gen. So like kind of, you know, you're saying this guy, he was. His second generation was in Doom Patrol. I, yeah, I felt a little as a second time reader, but not really because I haven't, you know, I forgot a lot of it and I hadn't done a ton of reading on the JSA prior to this. He was like one of those big mystery. There's several, there were several characters in here where I was like, I don't even. I felt like I needed to do some homework before I could even kind of like start to understand what their motivations were.

57:25
Zach
Robot man was Definitely one of those for me, I was like, I don't know what's going on with him?

57:31
Case Aiken
Yeah, I mean, like, they do establish pretty early on that he has become a very cold, non human feeling character. Like they say in his introductory after this very violent murder of some criminals, right? Where they say, like, Robot man used to try to emphasize the man, times have changed, or like, whatever they say, or like, those were a long time ago or something to that effect. And he's like, covered in blood. And from that point on, like, he get. Once he links up with Thompson, he's definitely on the. On the bad guy side, right? Like, he definitely murders a person that they call a suicide. And, like, is. Is their. Their dirty worker.

58:06
Zach
And I'm gonna be honest. Did I just miss, like, the reasoning behind it? Like, did they. Because they didn't switch his brain out or anything. They didn't.

58:14
Case Aiken
They. They go into deep. They don't go any into detail about why he does this. They just say that he no longer cares.

58:20
Zach
Okay. So he basically, like, he just found a more compelling. He found a more compelling thing to do, basically. Okay, interesting. Yeah, that was. I was super confused as far as, like, why he was. Why he. They kind of, like won him over immediately. And again, like, I would have loved a fifth issue of this just to let a little bit of this breathe. And like, that was. That was part of the confusion that I had was like, kind of like why some of these folks sort of bought into the registration act in the first place. And we're kind of like doing very obviously evil things like Robot man was.

58:58
Case Aiken
I wonder if the conceit of this being a creative work of Johnny Quick is actually pervasive throughout, even though, like, he's not always our viewpoint character at every moment. Like, we get the diary of Tex Thompson, we get notes from Rex Tyler, Hour Man. I wonder if that this is still all in post because he's still like, Johnny Quick at the very end is still wrapping up the story. And I wonder if since he's had access to the diary, like, he might have access to Tyler's notes. I wonder if he's like, taking all those story points and thus, like, he only has a vague idea of why Robot man just stopped giving a. And so is like, inserting that maybe. I don't know.

59:43
Zach
I could totally see that aside in like, a Burns documentary, right? Where it's like, no one knows why he probably went crazy. And then we cut back to what the main story is, right? It's Almost like that editor view where there's a lot of different characters in here. We can't spend equal amount of time with all of their motivations. So we're going to have to just sort of attribute to Robotman. He just got cold. So that's actually a really good. That's a good retcon, or like, headcanon. You get a no prize for that, is what I'm saying. Yeah, that's good. I like that.

01:00:16
Case Aiken
So let's talk about Tex Thompson.

01:00:19
Zach
Yeah.

01:00:19
Case Aiken
J Mike, we've been avoiding going. We have not said some big spoiler terms here. So if you did not heed our spoiler warning before and you're here now and you're like, oh, wait, this actually sounds pretty good now I do want to watch it. Or do you want to go read it? Go. Goodbye. Because we're about to say some big things. So, J Mike, what did you think when the twist happened?

01:00:44
Jmike
Manchurian Candidate.

01:00:46
Zach
Ooh, candidates. Plural.

01:00:49
Jmike
Candidate. I was like, of course it would be. Because I'm like, well, this sounds familiar. Like, we've seen some. Some devious plots like this before. And I'm like, but who would be crazy enough to pull it off? And as soon as, like, they have the whole reveal with Kirk looking through the window, and I was like, oh, you motherfucker.

01:01:14
Zach
That is great, by the way.

01:01:15
Jmike
Of course it's Ultra Humanite. Of course it's him because he's been quiet for way too long.

01:01:21
Case Aiken
Yeah. So interesting element here where we get the first supervillain in the body of a character who first appeared in Action Comics Number one.

01:01:30
Jmike
Yeah. The Ultra Humanite.

01:01:33
Zach
I was unaware of that. I'll be honest. Very little exposure to Ultra Humanite in general. Did not know he was the first super villain, so. Which just makes that all the more poetic. That's the first super villain in Action comics. That's brilliant.

01:01:48
Case Aiken
Yeah. I mean, yeah, first supervillain in the sense of first comic book supervillain, but, like, he's Superman's big villain of the day. And then again, Mr. America, alongside Zatara, shows up in Action Comics number one. Because that was, again, like a story that had a bunch of big stories about heroes, and Superman just happened to be the one that, like, really caught fire. I love that Tex Thompson is the main villain of this as a sort of main villain. Like, what the. You know, the. Yeah, the. The one that.

01:02:17
Zach
Yeah, yeah.

01:02:17
Case Aiken
By virtue of the fact that, again, I think that thesis of this book is like, this is the heroes we know dealing with the world as it was without Superman. Like, his absence is so important to this book. And the fact that Tex Thompson's whole plan is like, what if we created Superman is such an interesting driving force there. And it's, you know, it gets way worse. But, like, it's. It's wonderful seeing this character. You know, we. Because we. It's all real. Like, sure, he's. Sure he's a mad scientist who can take his brain out and put in other people's bodies and control them. And like, yeah, that.

01:02:56
Jmike
That.

01:02:56
Case Aiken
That's the super science component of it all. But, you know, they point out that as soon as Thompson leaves, the power vacuum is filled by McCarthy, the actual villain of this era. You know, that. That a lot of the really bad things that are going on are things that happened in real life because we allowed these kind of demagogues to take power. And the fact that Thompson is explicitly like a cartoo supervillain using demagoguery as a way to take power is kind of interesting to point out how, like, maybe we didn't pay attention to, like, the real demagogues because, like, they're real world. And maybe we should stop and be like, oh, maybe these are bad people.

01:03:32
Zach
It's also, I mean, like, it's also, you think about this. This, like, McCarthyism went on after this, right? Like, yeah, so there's a. So it's. It's interesting in almost in the. The old cliched critique of superheroes, right? Like, oh, they were real. You can't. You can't punch injustice or something like that. Like, you can't punch these, like, sort of. These sort of like, philosophical problems, right, that actually beset humanity. Poverty. Like Batman can't punch poverty in the mouth. This is like. This is very much like the superheroics take place on the edges of, like, the actual problems going on in this era, which is interesting. It's, you know, it's an interesting approach, I guess, and it's pretty relevant to the era and also something that you kind of see frequently in that era, but it was intentionally not addressed and glossed over.

01:04:26
Zach
Whereas with this one, he brings McCarthy in very pointedly. And it's almost like coming to grips or coming to terms with the fact that even if we've solved the superhero problem, we still have these major societal problems that we still haven't. These superheroes can't even begin to address, which is really interesting. And the strongest man in this, like, the six foot five, you know, like Bruiser, right? Like Alan Scott, like, he wasn't Buckling under the problems of the superheroes he was buckling under, protecting his writers from. Yeah, from McCarthy, which is a really interesting sort of like others. It's all, it's all kind of like getting sucked into the gravity of the real world, which I think is pretty interesting.

01:05:04
Case Aiken
Yeah, that's what I think is so great about this and why I love Alan Scott as like such a figure of like moral clarity in this whole thing where he is trying so hard but it hurts so bad. And again, he has the power, but he doesn't have the right to use that power in that way. And that's such a key point there. Which will. When we'll get into one of my like critiques about this in a minute. But like that is a concern there where like this juxtaposition of America at its worst and like the greatest heroes of an era being tested by America at its worst. It's so. It's such a nice contrast right there.

01:05:41
Zach
It's the greatest generation. Greatest generation versus one of our darkest moments.

01:05:47
Case Aiken
Yeah. So Tex Thompson has this whole plan of taking American iconography and manipulating the zeitgeist to let him be a mad scientist and do some terrible shit. And he does so by taking Dan the Dynamite Dunbar and doing some stuff with him. Now I want to talk for a moment about Dan Dunbar, who I like as a character. He is actually still around in the DC comics outside of this. Like he showed up with a group called Old justice, which is like a bunch of like sidekicks from the 40s. And so he's still out there having you know, the ability to punch hit with explosive force. That's pretty cool.

01:06:32
Zach
Good for him, man, at that age. I hope I'm punching things with explosive force.

01:06:37
Case Aiken
Yeah, I mean he. Very explicitly. It was like an 80 year old person being like, I'm gonna punch it with bombs.

01:06:44
Zach
It's awesome. That's fantastic. Again, another premise. I totally read a 12 issue maxi series on nursing home Avengers. That sounds fantastic.

01:06:56
Case Aiken
Oh yeah, absolutely. And I like that it's a sidekick who is having a lot of issue because his hero is dead. Like he is. He has gone through this trauma and he can't, you know, he's dealing with deep depression and also like this like feeling like he should have been meant for better and he, and maybe he was like he is not a superhero that people care about later. Like he. I don't, I, I don't think there was ever really an address of like what happened to TNT or Dan the dynamite, I think it just stopped at one point. And it's nice that he is then picked to be part of this experiment. And like, for him, it's giving him everything he wanted. He's like, I've always been.

01:07:30
Case Aiken
You know, like, when he's, like, cleaning up his room, when he's being kicked out of Princeton, he's got all these, like, participation in second place trophies. And he's like, I've never been the person who I think I can be. And he's being dangled this carrot which is perfect for him to go and, you know, take part of this thing. But the thing is. And this is the biggest spoiler in this all.

01:07:49
Zach
There must be a typo here with this next character. You're about to say. I don't. What. What is this?

01:07:54
Case Aiken
So Dan the Dynam Dunbar, when he is transformed into the Superman like figure, Dynaman, which. Love that name, love all the stuff going on with this character.

01:08:05
Zach
Can we also say his helmet, the NFL quarterback helmet is fantastic.

01:08:12
Case Aiken
It's got such. This jet age chrome to it. It looks so perfectly 1950s right there. I actually really like the costume in general. I love the needless chrome going down his chest. It's something from Astro City.

01:08:24
Zach
Yeah, absolutely.

01:08:26
Case Aiken
Looks great. I love. I love how they incorporate his explosive fist to be like, oh, I can punch stuff really hard and it explodes when I punch it. Like, yeah, like dope stuff.

01:08:34
Zach
All.

01:08:35
Case Aiken
You know, they. They make him so strong. He can lift up airplanes. He can fly faster than anyone. He is functionally invulnerable as long he's as. He's not tired. And he has theoretically infinite stamina, so he should never actually be vulnerable.

01:08:48
Zach
He's invulnerable unless he gets tired.

01:08:50
Case Aiken
Yeah. And I like that. They're very clear. Like, we gotta set this one up. Like, oh, yeah, he can't get tired. But if he were to get tired.

01:08:57
Zach
If he were to get tired, he would be in. He would be vulnerable.

01:09:00
Case Aiken
He'd be vulnerable.

01:09:01
Zach
Yeah, yeah.

01:09:02
Case Aiken
They make. They make that very clear. Yeah. So this being before this experiment is done on him, and it couldn't have been done on the atom, because the atom was already atomically powered. And so they take a sample of that cell structure.

01:09:14
Zach
It had to be charged at the same time. Yeah, yeah.

01:09:18
Case Aiken
They take out the brain of Dan Dunbar and put inside of him the brain of Adolf Hitler.

01:09:22
Zach
Yeah. Which I again, so at the start of this, I said, I forgot the big twist. That was the big twist that I completely forgot about. When they said Adolf Hitler, I was like, what the hell? What? What?

01:09:38
Case Aiken
J. Mike, when you're reading this, how did you feel?

01:09:41
Jmike
Yeah, because I was like. Because. Because that. The Tex Thompson thing we had already known about. Because they found out about that through diary.

01:09:48
Case Aiken
Yeah, but the Hitler thing was like, what?

01:09:53
Jmike
He was like, wait, what?

01:09:55
Case Aiken
How.

01:09:55
Zach
At what point. At what point did you start transitioning his dialogue into a terrible German accent?

01:10:01
Jmike
As soon as he gets up. And he gets up and he makes his monologue.

01:10:05
Zach
Yes. Had I known, I would be. I'm not actually gonna do it. But it was like the bit where he's like, if I had known, I would have done this earlier. Like, it's just amazing arch dialogue.

01:10:16
Case Aiken
And it's so interesting to reread it because they do set it up really well because, like, when the atom goes in for his own experiments, they talk about how the atom is so excited that he doesn't even notice the dialogue or the accents of the scientists working on him. And it's immediately set up that this is a Project Paperclip type thing.

01:10:33
Zach
Yeah. Like, I was thinking paperclip, that completely went over my head. I was thinking real world crimes as opposed to comic books.

01:10:40
Case Aiken
Right. There is a spot where they say, no, this isn't one of the people working on rock. This is someone who deserved to die. When they're talking about the ultra humanite, like, oh, so we're pretending that it was a good thing. Right. Okay, I see what's going on here. There's still a little bit of 90s neoliberal liberalism going on here in a way that I'm like, okay, interesting.

01:10:59
Zach
I completely miss that. That is a great setup.

01:11:02
Case Aiken
Yeah. It's very well alluded to, but when you get to it still feels like such a gut punch. And like, all right, this is the first time that I can think of where we're dealing with a real full on evil Superman.

01:11:15
Zach
Yeah, Yeah. I. So I, you know, and I think you kind of, like, made a note previous. Previous. Right. Like, the evil Superman is kind of cliched. It was probably even getting cliched, even in this era. I don't think. I can't think of a super, like, Adolf, super Hitler man. I can't think of that. This still feels pretty novel to me in that.

01:11:39
Jmike
Where we. We've done this before too, which is the thing we've read. We read a story. What story was that we did recently about the evil Superman who was Adolf Hitler?

01:11:49
Zach
Wait, they've also. Someone else has done this?

01:11:52
Jmike
Yes.

01:11:52
Zach
Adolf Hitler has been Superman in multiple comics.

01:11:57
Case Aiken
Yeah.

01:11:57
Zach
Watch out for that chaos magic stuff. Manifesting it, because he was in the.

01:12:01
Jmike
Bottom of the boat that the boat sank. I forget. I can't. Brain fog.

01:12:06
Case Aiken
Wait. I'm actually not sure what you're thinking of right now, Man.

01:12:09
Zach
Are the vitamins wearing off?

01:12:11
Jmike
No, no, because there was. There was a. There was. What series did we do recently where there was a superhero who was pretending to be a superhero, but, like, he. It was. Oh, it was the amalgam stuff.

01:12:28
Zach
Teaser, Teaser.

01:12:30
Jmike
Remember? It was. Oh, yeah. You guys are supposed to hear this is a secret.

01:12:33
Zach
Shh.

01:12:33
Jmike
But it was one of the amalgam things where the Superman, Captain America thing.

01:12:40
Case Aiken
No, but he wasn't a Hitler. Just.

01:12:43
Jmike
Yeah, it was like he went to go rescue Hitler, but it turns out Hitler had already been dead for a while, and he was a canister. Did. The canister exploded.

01:12:51
Zach
This is literal Hitler. When people say you're like Adolf Hitler, Dynaman's literally Hitler.

01:12:59
Case Aiken
Yeah. I made a note in the Google Doc that's like, there are some examples of this going on at the same time or. Or before. Because there's the movie they saved Hitler's brain from the 60s. And then at the same time, like, Eric Larson is doing Savage Dragon, and, like, Brainy Ape or whatever, the. The gorilla with the giant ape or with the giant brain is revealed to be Hitler's brain in a gorilla body. So, like, ultra Hitler stuff is always popular. Like, oh, interesting in the 90s. Like, we're still very much in that wave of, like, oh, yeah, Hitler's a good villain for anything that we're working on. But, man, is it a gut punch here, because you realize you go back to every speech that Thompson and that.

01:13:34
Case Aiken
That Dynaman have given in this whole book where they talk about American exceptionalism and, like, oh, wow, is that, like, Nazi indoctrination but under the guise of, like, waving the flag, patriotism.

01:13:45
Zach
It was good. It was a good little heel turn for Dynamite, for Dynaman, and then one.

01:13:51
Case Aiken
Of the most brutal fucking fights ever.

01:13:53
Zach
It was. It was. This is like. I feel like all of the catharsis that you're kind of robbed of in Watchmen. This was. This is like the actually happening, like, the superhero, the big bruiser fight that you're kind of expecting and never happens. This is. This is huge.

01:14:08
Jmike
Yeah, I think this is top three. Top three. It's like, the most brutal superhero fights that we've seen. The first thing was the Miracle man fight where he or London Gets blown away.

01:14:18
Zach
Yep.

01:14:19
Jmike
Yeah, the second one was. The second is Kingdom Come. The Kingdom Come fight. And this is the third one.

01:14:27
Case Aiken
I mean, it's. It's really interesting in that regard.

01:14:30
Zach
Invincible might be.

01:14:32
Case Aiken
Yeah, I would usually put Invincible, like, up there, especially some of the later fights. Yeah, like, the actual, like, fight choreography is so much better in that. But this is interesting for a bunch of reasons. For one thing, there's no sound effects in this entire fight. And it's really obvious at spots like, where, like, Alan Scott is being questioned by huac, and, like, they keep on responding to things. And this is where, like, Paul Smith's artwork is so good at, like, getting all the facial expressions without things, like sound cues. Like, what we do get are, like, actual explosions. Like, we see, like, the. The clouds of, like, the Human Bomb and Dynam like, punching at each other with, like, huge light effects going on. We're not getting the sounds. And this is going on throughout this whole brutal fight.

01:15:13
Case Aiken
Like, so many people die. So many people are dismembered. So many people are left broken. All these characters who really matter. John Law, who has, you know, had a pretty big viewpoint part to him up until this point, dies in two panels. You know, it's. It's a. It's a harsh fight. Hawkman tries so damn hard. Doesn't matter. And the Green Lantern fight, when he shows up and, like, it's like, oh, this is the biggest gun we have, guys. Like, let's see if he can do anything. And, like, two panels in Johnny Quick's like, no, don't you see? He's not gonna win this fight?

01:15:44
Zach
Like, he's not tired enough.

01:15:46
Case Aiken
You know, it's such a brutal. A brutal character, like Dynamite as a concept of, like, let's. Let's take this random sidekick and take the one thing that's, like, kind of interesting, which is the explosive fists. And, like, make that part of a Superman character where those explosive fists are like, oh, he punches a building, and he can literally blow up the building. He punches you. He can blow you up when he punches you. Like, and he's Hitler. It's incredible. The fight is like. Like, a lot more teeth are lost in this than I think most comics would show. Like, they normally don't, like, show off. Like, oh, yeah, there's, like, they're. This guy's nose is broken. This guy's eyes are gouged out. And, like, every single character is missing teeth by the end of this fight.

01:16:25
Case Aiken
And you're like, yeah, that's a pretty Permanent wound on this person. And there's like blood everywhere from. From all of this.

01:16:31
Zach
From 90s comics especially. This is. This is pretty violent.

01:16:34
Case Aiken
Yeah. And it's not a gore fest kind of book, I think, is the other part of it.

01:16:39
Zach
No, that's. That's. So this. It is a very quiet book. Occasionally punctuated by violence, which is like my favorite films. Right. Like, it's. It's almost got a refn sort of vibe in that. Like, it's a lot of detective work. And then occasionally you get hit. You get hit kind of like with that surprising page turn. And then this is sort of like this. The last 30 pages. Right. Like, I'm just kind of like flipping through this here. Basically. Like the last 10 to 15% of the book is just this all no holds barred sort of thing. And then. Yeah. Brawl. And it's very much a catharsis. Millar is kind of like, famous for basically thinking in terms of what he would want to see adapted as a movie. Right.

01:17:28
Zach
Like, he set multiple endings in Times Square because he always wanted to have Times Square shut down for a movie. For a movie adaptation of his books. The bit where you have all of the superheroes on the. On the lawn of the White House. Right. And like, you're like, oh, my God, this is about to go down. I think it's the White. It's not the White House. It's some.

01:17:49
Case Aiken
It's a. I think it's a Lincoln Memorial.

01:17:52
Zach
Is it Lincoln Memorial there?

01:17:53
Case Aiken
It looks like it from.

01:17:54
Zach
There's a lot of stairs and some columns.

01:17:56
Case Aiken
All the columns. Would it. It's either Lincoln or Jefferson from the design.

01:18:00
Zach
Yeah.

01:18:00
Case Aiken
But. But based on. It looks like the mall is right in front of them. So it looks like it's the Lincoln.

01:18:04
Zach
They show up there and then they go into, I think, Congress, I think. But yeah, like, just this, like it's a. It is a fantastic. It's like a. It's. It's just the further turning of the tension. Oh.

01:18:15
Case Aiken
I guess it might be the Capitol and just like zoomed in.

01:18:17
Zach
Yeah.

01:18:18
Case Aiken
On it.

01:18:18
Zach
Yeah.

01:18:19
Case Aiken
Actually, I guess the capital makes the most sense now that I say it.

01:18:22
Zach
But then they just keep on, like, ratcheting up the tension. And then like suddenly Robot man just kind of like snaps it like. Like a tightly wound, tightly round spring in that. In that panel. That over the head shot.

01:18:36
Case Aiken
Yeah. Like when Miss America.

01:18:38
Zach
Yeah.

01:18:39
Case Aiken
Steps up to start talking and like, she's giving such a speech and they're like, oh, she really believes it. Like, that's really good. And you're. You're like, you know what she's about to say, or at least something that she's about to say. And our man's like, no, Joan, why are you up there? And he's, like, trying to get in position. Yeah. Like, you can almost hear, like, the white noise kind of like rising, just like, blanking out everything as like all of a sudden like a robot hand, like, murders this woman. It's terrible stuff.

01:19:03
Zach
It.

01:19:03
Case Aiken
It does not glorify the violence. I. I think that's an important part there in a way that, like, invincible, as bloody as it is. Like, it's really, like, exciting how, like, how violence works in that or. Or like Dragon Ball Z, like that. That kind of style. Like, this is like, no, this is. This is awful. Like, it's terrible.

01:19:21
Zach
This is. This is sad. This is the. This is the end of Venice in a lot of ways. It's really good.

01:19:26
Case Aiken
And then we get a character introduced at the very end who is used to sort of juxtapose the golden age with, like, the Silver Age stuff. A young hero. And that's Captain Comet, who we have talked about on the show before. He's a Man of Tomorrow concept, like a Superman, but still not Superman. This book is still like, at no point does this book introduce Superman. And it's nice to have that set up. And then at the very end, we get. Their future is as bright as sterling silver.

01:19:50
Zach
And so again, super cliche. But this feels like this. Basically finishing this. I enjoyed it. I don't think it was, like, all time for me, but it did make me really want to go reread New Frontier. Yeah.

01:20:04
Case Aiken
Yeah. It feels like a launch point for that.

01:20:06
Zach
It does. It feels like a launch point. And I know this shot happens at the end of. I think at the end of New Frontier. You have a very similar shot, which is an interesting. Creates like these interesting touchstones, right? Like handing off between these different characters. I know next to nothing about Captain Connor. I clearly need to read more jsa just in general, but, yeah, definitely. Captain Comet I'm super unfamiliar with.

01:20:33
Case Aiken
You know, he's never stuck the way that, like, other characters have. Like, he's. I can't think of any, like, major run.

01:20:39
Zach
He is he just, like, super strong and can fly or what?

01:20:43
Case Aiken
It's all like, telekinetic stuff. Like, he's supposed to be, like, super evolved. So he has, like, the mental powers of humans thousands of years in the future. So he's like, telekinetic Telepathic and later he can teleport. And some of that equates to a certain amount of super strength and invulnerability.

01:20:56
Zach
Right. Kind of a cable E sort of thing.

01:20:59
Case Aiken
Yeah, yeah. Like. Like an X Men or.

01:21:01
Zach
Yeah, or X Men. Yeah, yeah.

01:21:03
Case Aiken
Or Phoenix or however. But yeah, he usually ends up in like the space stuff nowadays.

01:21:09
Zach
Okay.

01:21:09
Case Aiken
Because he can be out there wandering about. I. I wanted touch on some of the. The big themes of this whole book. So a big one is the PTSD that people are experiencing from the war or. Or. Or from specifically the atom bomb. Like, Starman has that big element there. And like, everyone is like, very much like kind of damaged from. From this all. And that's just like an interesting element to sort of play with because, like, oftentimes we. We don't think about the. These like World War II figures as being like, as affected. You know, like pop culture representations of PTSD became big for like Vietnam, but like. Like this, feel this.

01:21:45
Zach
I got strong Vietnam vibes. Right. Like we them just coming, like, just wanting to get back to their lives and then the trauma and the fact that everything was different, really. Like, I had to remind myself several times that this was. This was a World War II. Like, this is the 50s and not the late 70s, honestly.

01:22:06
Case Aiken
Yeah. And the elements with HUAC, I think, are really interesting here. Like I said, this was my introduction to that. Like the McCarthy era. Like, reading this, I was like, oh, what is this whole period that we have glossed over in history books every time we did US history in the 20th century. Because it's a pretty shameful period. I like that we deal with that from creatives. We deal with that with people who are being blacklisted and unable to work as a result of it all the attacks that we're making on people who are legitimate heroes, but just because they happen to conflict with the current administration, they are being villainized also kind of.

01:22:42
Zach
Made me want to go back and reread what was it? Brubaker's. Is it Fade out where it was all about. Like, it was basically two writers who were blacklisted. It was like post McCarthy but still kind of that. Those same vibes. Yeah. Again, it was just a really interesting sort of exploration of the beginning of American excess coming off of World War II government registration. You touched on this previously, but this is something that I feel like is going to get lifted wholesale for Civil War, for the beginning of the end of event books, basically with Marvel. Civil War. Yeah.

01:23:24
Case Aiken
So this is a Much more nuanced kind of take on it all. Like a lot of characters like ignore it at first and then like politics like ramps up and like more stuff is going on. Eventually the president saying everyone has to show up for this thing. It becomes a much more dramatic thing and it shows that like these events would actually take years to play out. Like you would get rumbles. It like, sure, the actual specific event might be a short term thing, but like it actually would take a, a, a couple of tries, a couple of points. There would be stuff like, to compare with like Nazi history. There's stuff like the beer hall push and then there's the actual like election a couple years later. Like there's. If you actually look at history, nothing comes completely by surprise.

01:24:03
Case Aiken
And God, is it menacing to imagine a world where like Miraclo was distributed. Everyone knew the formula for super speed from Johnny Quick and like, and Superman. Hitler was like leading a charge from America with the atom bomb. On that note, I want to talk about the atom bomb. So that's the one thing that I like on this reread. I was like, wait, does that work? So in the timeline of this all, Tex Thompson is in Germany like trying to track down people and eventually is captured in like his brain is replaced, but he's actually like out there to assassinate a bunch of superheroes or super villains, but like German, you know, super beings.

01:24:38
Case Aiken
And the big reason why metas are not going into the world into World War II is because they have Parzival who is able to neutralize any superheroes and would prevent them from being able to do anything and potentially they would die, which almost happened to Green Lantern at earlier in the war. But as far like it's established that parcel is taken out before the atom bomb and once the atom bomb is made. But they, but they've killed the thing that's preventing Green Lantern from entering. Why did they drop the atom bomb when they could have just sent Green Lantern in to Japan even if the Pacific theater is still full swing? And that's assuming that they knew that Parsifal could be anywhere, let alone like was probably in Europe. You know, like why was the Pacific theater kind of ignored?

01:25:21
Case Aiken
And that's like a weird omission in this book where they don't talk about that side of the war at all.

01:25:27
Zach
I almost wonder. You're absolutely right. They do not talk about that war. I also wonder if kind of. So you brought it up several times like Alan Scott repeatedly comes back to this idea that, like, I could stop if I wanted to, but that's not my right. I wonder if, you know, they neutralize it. They had the Adam Scott option. And they're like, we just need you to flatten a couple of cities. And then Adam Scott was like, no. And then they're like, okay, then let's do the bomb.

01:25:53
Case Aiken
Yeah, that's an interesting question there. Was he asked to do that because, you know, we get a very.

01:25:59
Zach
Why he's being targeted for the anti communist stuff. Stuff is because he was. Yeah, he was unwilling. He was unwilling to flatten Hiroshima. So they're like, he's probably a communist synthesizer.

01:26:11
Jmike
He might be one of those guys. Yeah, yeah, check him out.

01:26:15
Case Aiken
But I can't help but think that, like, Alan Scott could have been more humane. Like, could he have like, just neutralized, like, literally a section of like, the Japanese army, all their machines, but not actually, like, killed anyone? Like, could he have done something that was less terrible than an atom bomb?

01:26:30
Zach
Maybe it almost. If he had. If they had enlisted him to do that and he had done it, I think we would have gotten several scenes that would have reminded us of Manhattan and Vietnam.

01:26:44
Case Aiken
Yeah.

01:26:45
Zach
And I wonder if that's why Robinson shied away from it, is he was like this. Maybe this would have been a little too on the nose or something like that. I like the idea of Scott just saying, like, no, thanks, chum. Like, I like the idea of him just sort of deciding that was just kind of like beyond the even for like someone as all powerful as him.

01:27:04
Case Aiken
Yeah, no, that's a good headcanon for that one. It just, it just struck me reading this one where I'm like, oh, wait. But like, they, like, for one thing, they didn't know where Parsifal was, but they could guess that he was probably still in Europe. And then he's definitely dead before the atom bomb is dropped. And like, the decision to drop the atom bomb, they didn't have to. A month out. Like, if they knew that Parsifal was dead a month ahead of times, they could be like, wait, the Flash can run our man in there and he can break that building, Right, Exactly. Alan Scott can fly in there. Starman could do some shit, you know, they've got. And that's the weird break there in terms of, like, the reality of, like, these super beings being so powerful.

01:27:43
Zach
I, you know, I could still imagine, if I could still imagine, just speaking totally cynically, I could totally imagine a future where maybe not. Truman. Truman, by all accounts was not a terrible person, but some I could totally see someone saying basically like, yeah, we have a superhero that does this, but this is like a demonstration of American power that we're going to have to leverage against the Soviets over the next. Over the next 30 or 40 years and that sort of thing. Like I could actually see that still. I could see there being a discussion and. Or an argument that ends with them. Like a Dr. Strangelove moment where they're like, we could use superpower superheroes, but are people going to know that America's on top?

01:28:27
Zach
We won't get another chance to demonstrate this as viscerally as dropping a couple of atomic bombs on like populated cities and being horrific in that way.

01:28:36
Case Aiken
Now you see, I actually like that headcanon of wondering if also not just like emphasizing to Russia, but emphasizing to like the super beings that like, now we America have the bomb.

01:28:46
Zach
Right.

01:28:47
Case Aiken
Like, it's cute that you're really fast, dude.

01:28:50
Zach
Yeah.

01:28:50
Case Aiken
But can you already like have the atom bomb now?

01:28:52
Zach
Yeah, yeah.

01:28:53
Case Aiken
And that's still interesting from the perspective of Alan Scott in this whole book. Aside from Dynaman, is the one character who is more powerful than the atom bomb.

01:29:02
Zach
Yeah, that's interesting. That's an interesting thing to kind of like either wrestle with in Headcanon or eventually at a con. Ask Robinson, see if. See if CP if he has thoughts around that. I'd be super curious like what that kind of how his approach was affected on that side.

01:29:20
Case Aiken
Yeah, like I said, it's. It's interesting to. To think about. Like Zach, like you said, like, you wish this had a little more room to breathe. And that's one spot where like, oh, that would be nice to like kind of dwell on. But even without that, you know, it's four issues, but they're like long issues. They're like 48 page issues.

01:29:35
Zach
Yeah, this is 150 pages. Right. Like, this is a pretty decent. This is. This is a standard size. No standard size. Trade closer to.

01:29:44
Case Aiken
Yeah, it's a. It's a hefty book.

01:29:45
Zach
Yeah.

01:29:46
Jmike
Even.

01:29:46
Case Aiken
Even only being four issues. So like I come away from this like still really liking this book. Like I. I would definitely recommend it to anyone who has not read it already and listened to the end. Even knowing the twist like it has. It is actually set up really well. So like the. It's one of those things where like on a reread, you. You catch things better. So like knowing the twist, like just makes you like see scenes in a different perspective as Opposed to a limited perspective. Like, you actually, like, get more out of those scenes, which I think is really good. So I would definitely recommend it.

01:30:17
Case Aiken
If you haven't checked it out, and if you checked it out back in the day and haven't reread it, I think it's really interesting to look at in modern times and like, to look at it from the, like, the politicization of everyone in this era, like, to. To see how they. They implement those elements here back in the 90s in looking at the 40s and looking at how, like, we can take rah America speeches and put this subtext that, like, does make it look really authoritarian and terrifying.

01:30:45
Zach
It's a. You know, if we go back to recommend, I definitely recommend it. I don't. For some reason, I didn't enjoy the second time I read it as much as the first time. I think part of that was just the struggle to remember who everyone was and kind of regretting not having more time to, like, kind of, like, revisit the JSA more properly and like, kind of like, because, I mean, like, we literally. We literally went through, like, what, 15 characters, 15 people in this. This is an ensemble, and those are.

01:31:13
Case Aiken
Like, the big characters. Like, there are so many background characters.

01:31:16
Zach
So many background characters that I just. I felt like were zipping past me. And I don't, you know, I don't know if it was just the fugue state that I was in 2020 that just made me forget everything. But. But, yeah, I mean, Paul Smith is beautiful. There's some wonderful subtext. It's a lot. It is nuanced enough to where even just talking about it more a. I liked it more the more we discussed it and realized, like, oh, man, that was really cool you did that. But then, like, you bringing up, like, the German accents and the. Not the ones that worked on rockets. That's brilliant. That's a great. That's a great sort of foreshadowing. And I'm sure that if I read again and I wasn't so hung up on who the people were or kind of like, tracking that, it's definitely.

01:31:58
Zach
I think there's a lot of rewards for people who are kind of, like, revisiting it and kind of like getting to see some of these. Some of these events filtered through, like, the inevitable twist that you're, like, kind of familiar with the second time.

01:32:12
Case Aiken
J. Mike, how about you?

01:32:14
Jmike
It's really cool to get to see and read about a lot of the older superheroes from back in the Day. Because you only hear about them in passing nowadays. Oh, remember Captain Comet? No.

01:32:29
Case Aiken
Yeah.

01:32:29
Zach
No, no, you're not.

01:32:31
Jmike
But yeah, it's really cool to see them and you get to see that twist, that hilarious twist. And I promise I won't read it with German accent next time.

01:32:43
Case Aiken
It's great.

01:32:44
Zach
The whole time now I'm going.

01:32:46
Case Aiken
It's like the German accent where he's trying to hide the accent. I believe in America.

01:32:52
Zach
I am definitely American. Yeah.

01:32:54
Jmike
Like, that's how I imagine I am very American.

01:32:57
Zach
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, yes. God bless America. Yeah. That's how I'm going to be reading all of Dina, man, in the third read through.

01:33:10
Case Aiken
Make a promise, Keep a promise.

01:33:12
Zach
Yes.

01:33:15
Jmike
It's always great to see like all these guys in action again because I never read a lot of the older comics because I was like five. So it's cool to read them now and see how cool they were back then.

01:33:30
Case Aiken
Yeah. So I hope if you dug this book back in the day that you give it another listen. I hope our conversation may have sparked some ideas for anyone checking this one out. I love that we get to talk about the Ultra Humanite here so closely after talking about Superman and the authority where the Ultra Humanite is prominently featured as well. I always love this like brain swapping villain. Like it's, it's great. Like more of that, please. You know, it's been a while since we talked about Superman, Batman Generations, where the Ultra Humanite was a big character there. But like, you know, like it's an important villain that's been around for a long time and has been important to Superman stuff. Stuff.

01:34:09
Case Aiken
So there's that and then, you know, we get to talk about this book which very much thesis is like, what is the world like without Superman and. But still has superheroes and like really deals with it here in a way that like the nail kind of was just like, golly, it would suck. Like, like this is a little more nuanced of a conversation, but similar actually when you really look at like the big plot of the nail, a lot of similar elements of like people trying to manipulate those with power. And you kind of do need someone to like take a stand and be like, step the fuck back. Like not like not everything can be part of some kind of government control. And this is a real exploration of that. So I hope you all enjoyed it.

01:34:47
Case Aiken
Zach, thank you for coming back on.

01:34:48
Zach
Thanks for having me, man. This was a blast. As always. Good to see you. Happy birthday, J. Mac. Glad you're feeling better, man.

01:34:55
Jmike
Yay.

01:34:57
Case Aiken
And folks, this will be the penultimate episode dealing with Golden Age material for now. We will be coming back for some more Golden Age stuff. We definitely want to talk about New Frontier. We want to talk about the original reign of the Superman book at some point. And we want to talk about more radio show stuff because, you know, we already talked about the Batman crossover and that leads directly into the first big Kryptonite story, which was the Atom man story that, you know, people made illusions to in Superman Smashes the Clan. So stuff we want to talk about, but we're not talking about it next time. So next time we will be concluding our run on Golden Age material by talking about the first Superman appearance, which is Action Comics 1. We'll be joined by Adam from the Talking Superman Twitter account.

01:35:47
Case Aiken
And then after that, we are moving far from the golden age into the 90s because we'll be doing DC versus Marvel and the first wave of Amalgam Comics with Mitch Pompeyek. He's coming back and that's going to be a two parter because we're also going to be talking about part two of or like the second wave of Amalgam after that. So come back for that. In the meantime, you can also go over to certain pov.com and check out tons of other great shows. I want to give two particular shout outs right now. One is for United States of Women, which is a history podcast discussing in order of the. Of the state, joining the union, joining America, becoming a state of America, talking about notable women from each of these states. So we relaunched.

01:36:26
Zach
It's a great premise.

01:36:28
Case Aiken
Oh, it's awesome. As soon as I heard about it, I was like, that's a great idea. And we brought it on and we're now backing the show. So the first four seasons are out now, so going Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and now we're in Georgia at the moment talking about notable women from each of these states.

01:36:46
Zach
Is each season a state they do in like a Sufjan Stevens thing? Oh, man.

01:36:50
Case Aiken
Yeah.

01:36:51
Zach
So that's a lot.

01:36:51
Case Aiken
They do eight notable women from each state as like in that order of how they joined the unit. So it's a really cool show. I cannot recommend it enough.

01:37:00
Zach
That's pretty awesome. I like that a lot. Cool. I will sub to that.

01:37:03
Case Aiken
Yeah, check that out. Also check out Exit Stage Death, which is our friend Matty Limerick's podcast discussing crimes that occurred in Broadway theaters. So it's a true crime story podcast. So check that one out. That's really cool. It just launched. But these are all of our friends. We want to make sure that we can promote them. And both of these are really cool actual world stuff as opposed to just like in the comic books. I'm really happy to have friends who like work on these kind of things. So like I said, check those out. Zach, if people wanted to find you and find what you're working on, where should they look?

01:37:36
Zach
So Instagram. I'm Z Herring. I am Autobot with two T's on both of those on Twitter. Not posting much these days. Kind of busy with day job stuff, but hopefully I get back to it soon. You can find comics that I'm working on there. My co creator over at Abducted, he's actually been. He is working on a really cool new, like new sci fi series that he's posting regular updates from. So you can find that. Basically I'll be linking to that on my Instagram. Definitely check him out. Follow me on Instagram for updates on Small Town Devil, which I will. I've got like the first like 15 or 20 pages done. And I'll start actually finishing, publishing, finishing stuff there once I'm able to kind of kick that back off.

01:38:22
Case Aiken
Nice. J Mike. Where can people find you?

01:38:25
Jmike
Gosh, all this pressure. I feel like I'm not a very popular person on Twitter.

01:38:31
Zach
You got some good gifts, man.

01:38:32
Jmike
I try, I try.

01:38:33
Zach
Yeah, you got some good gifts. No lie.

01:38:36
Jmike
You can find me on twitter @j Mike101. Like Zach said, I post gifs. That's what I do.

01:38:41
Case Aiken
Good follow and a good co follow because then he'll respond to your stuff with. With some of the best gifts in town. The spiciest takes.

01:38:47
Zach
Spiciest takes in animated form. Yeah, you get to save them. You get to use them in your own slack channels. People think you're the person with the fresh gifts. It's a follow that keeps on giving. Definitely follow J.

01:39:00
Case Aiken
It's a follow that keeps on giving.

01:39:02
Zach
Oh, well done. That needs to be in your profile tonight.

01:39:08
Case Aiken
As for the show, you can find it on Twitter. In of Steel Pod, you can find me at Caseakin. I've got a bunch of other stuff and I should actually start shouting out some of the stuff we're doing on my other podcast, Another Pass. We recently talked about Ghostbusters and when this episode is Dropping the beach. So check those out. And we've got coming up a crossover episode with Saturday Morning Confidential talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer. So check those out. Those are some fun episodes.

01:39:35
Zach
When do we find out that you're Jonny Quick. You got a lot. You get a lot of things going there, Case. I think you might.

01:39:44
Case Aiken
A lot of coals in the fire. And the solution on that one is that I don't sleep.

01:39:50
Zach
That's the only other thing that makes sense. That's incredible.

01:39:52
Case Aiken
Meanwhile, you should also check out the certain POV YouTube channel where I post a bunch of Superman videos. I also edit the fun and games ones, but the Superman video ones are all me. And right now we're talking about some legion of superhero characters. So we recently talked about. About Laurel Gan slash Andromeda. And next up, we've got Laurel Kent, the descendant of Superman, and then Dev M, the knave of Krypton. All these are legion of superhero characters with powers akin to Superman. As, you know, Superman analog stuff. That all makes sense. Check those out. They're really fun. I've. We've been getting a lot of, like, feedback, a lot of people commenting, a lot of subscribers. I'm really enthusiastic about the. The community we're starting to build on YouTube in addition to our Discord server, which is just real cool.

01:40:35
Case Aiken
So check all that out. Check out our Discord, which you can find a link in the description of this episode or every page of certain pov dot com. There's a link there. So go come chat with us. We're. We're nice. We don't bite. And until next time, stay super man.

01:40:54
Jmike
Men of Steel is a certain POV production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and Casey Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm. Our logo is by Chris Batista. Episode art is by Case Aiken, and our theme is by Jeff Moon.

01:41:12
Case Aiken
I'm really happy to do this one, but I'm also like, we've been doing some Golden Age material, and I wanted to, like, close out this run by talking about this particular work because it's like a big touchstone for me for the Golden Age. So I thought this would be good. And then we've actually got, like, a bunch of episodes banked. And so that's why I was like, oh, no, I want to get this one in. I don't want to, like. I don't want to shift to amalgam next.

01:41:32
Zach
Wait, y'all doing amalgam next?

01:41:34
Case Aiken
Yeah, no, we already got those in the can.

01:41:36
Zach
Oh, but they're. But they're being released next.

01:41:38
Jmike
Yeah.

01:41:38
Case Aiken
Yes.

01:41:39
Zach
Oh, I can't wait to listen.

01:41:40
Case Aiken
Yeah, no, we've got, like, three months worth of episodes in the can now, and it's like, fuck. Like, we don't do this normally. Like, I'm like, this is great.

01:41:47
Zach
You're gonna, you're about to take a long vacation or something. Yeah.

01:41:53
Case Aiken
Hello there.

01:41:54
Zach
My name is Leo and I'm here to tell you all about my Dune.

01:41:58
Case Aiken
Podcast, GOM Jabbar, the perfect podcast for new fans of Dune and longtime fans of Dune alike. My co host, Abu, and I dive deep in both spoiler free and spoiler heavy episodes covering, gosh, Frank Herbert's original novels, the film adaptations, the board games, the comics, the upcoming video games, the HBO TV series, anything we can get our hands on.

01:42:23
Zach
We even have a companion book club series to make your first or your.

01:42:27
Case Aiken
15Th read through even better. So if you recently saw Denis Villeneuve's adaptation of Dune, or if you read Dune back when it came out in 1965, this is the podcast for you. You can find Gom Jabbar on Apple.

01:42:43
Zach
Podcast on Spotify, pretty much anywhere you find your podcasts.

01:42:47
Case Aiken
And we hope you join us on the Golden Path. Cpov certainpov.