Episode 90 - It's Superman! A Novel by Tom De Haven with Ryan Haupt

From the “Science… Sort Of” and “iFanboy” podcasts, Ryan Haupt joins Case and Jmike for a discussion about the novel that asks “What was Superman up to prior to Action Comics #1?” From dust bowl Kansas to Tinsel Town’s Golden Age and beyond, the three tackle what shapes a boy into a super man!

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Meeting summary:

●      In the latest episode of the podcast, the hosts delve into Tom DeHaven's 2005 novel "It's Superman," which reimagines Superman’s origin story in the context of the 1930s, leading up to the iconic Action Comics #1. The discussion highlights the novel's unique setting in Dust Bowl Kansas and New York City, emphasizing Clark Kent's struggles with his identity, early powers, and relationships, particularly with Lois Lane and his adoptive parents. The hosts explore significant themes such as race, discrimination, and economic hardship during the Great Depression, while also analyzing Superman's character development and the evolution of his abilities. They compare the novel to other Superman adaptations, consider potential modern adaptations, and discuss literary influences, notably drawing parallels to authors like John Steinbeck. The episode concludes with strong recommendations for readers to explore DeHaven's work, including its audiobook version, and teases future episodes covering other superhero narratives.

Notes:

●       Introduction to "It's Superman" Novel (00:00 - 11:02)

●      Podcast hosts discuss Tom DeHaven's 2005 novel "It's Superman"

●      Novel is set in the 1930s, leading up to Action Comics #1

●      Highlights unique perspective on Superman's origin story

●      Explores Clark Kent's character development and early powers

●       Setting and Characters (11:02 - 22:59)

●      Novel set in Dust Bowl Kansas and later New York City

●      Focuses on Clark Kent's struggles with his identity and powers

●      Introduces Lois Lane as an aspiring journalist

●      Lex Luthor portrayed as a corrupt businessman and politician

●       Character Development and Relationships (22:59 - 33:36)

●      Explores Jonathan and Martha Kent's relationship and struggles

●      Discusses Clark's friendship with Willie Berg (Jimmy Olsen-type character)

●      Highlights Lois Lane's determination and career ambitions

●      Examines Lex Luthor's motivations and schemes

●       Themes and Social Issues (33:36 - 43:43)

●      Novel addresses race and discrimination in 1930s America

●      Explores Clark's outsider status and search for belonging

●      Discusses religious themes and characters' beliefs

●      Highlights economic struggles during the Great Depression

●       Superman's Powers and Action Scenes (43:44 - 54:03)

●      Describes Clark's developing superpowers, including heat vision

●      Discusses the novel's approach to action scenes

●      Highlights Clark's stunt work in Hollywood

●      Explores the limits of Superman's abilities in this iteration

●       Superman Mythos and Adaptations (54:03 - 01:03:41)

●      Compares novel to other Superman adaptations and origin stories

●      Discusses potential for animated or comic book adaptations

●      Explores how the novel fits into Superman canon

●      Highlights unique elements of this version of Superman

●       Literary Style and Influences (01:03:41 - 01:12:35)

●      Compares writing style to John Steinbeck and other period authors

●      Discusses use of prose to explore characters' inner thoughts

●      Highlights the novel's historical accuracy and atmosphere

●      Explores the balance between action and character development

●       Adaptation Possibilities (01:12:36 - 01:20:06)

●      Discusses potential voice actors for an animated adaptation

●      Explores pros and cons of different adaptation formats

●      Considers how to modernize certain elements of the story

●      Discusses potential sequel ideas

●       Wrap-up and Recommendations (01:20:06 - 01:30:26)

●      Hosts highly recommend the book to Superman fans and general readers

●      Discuss emotional impact of the story

●      Provide information on where to find the podcast and guests

●      Promote other related podcasts and upcoming episodes

Transcription

00:00
Ryan
I usually describe it to people as if John Steinbeck wrote Superman.

00:30
Case
Hey, everyone, and welcome back. Welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, J. Mike Folson.

00:36
Jmike
Welcome back, everybody. So glad to have you here.

00:39
Case
Yeah, I'm glad that we can gather today because we are talking about a subject that I have wanted to do since we started the show today. We're talking about the novel. It's Superman. And to do that, we are joined by Ryan Haupt.

00:52
Ryan
Hey, everybody. Thanks for having me.

00:54
Case
Yeah, Ryan, thank you for coming on. You actually suggested this after I reached out to you. Since you're familiar with podcasting about comics, you've been a regular guest on the Ifan Boy show.

01:04
Ryan
That is true. Yeah. You invited me to be on the show. I was very flattered and excited to do it. And then I started scrolling through your back catalog episodes, and I, you know, from even the very first, earliest episodes, I was like, well, damn it, they've done that. Well, damn it, they've done that. And I just kept hitting things that I would have loved to have talked about. You know, you've even done the science of Superman. And so that kind of not stepping on my toes is your show. But, you know, like, I could have nailed that one.

01:29
Case
So that one is due for a revision at some point. That's us just looking at the documentary.

01:33
Ryan
Right, right. I listened to it. You guys did a very good job. But, yeah, you know, the couple of things that were kicking around in my head were like, the Max Fleischer era serial cartoons and then this novel, which is kind of set in that same era that I'd read years ago. And there's an Ifanboy mini back when they used to do the video show where Connor talks about this novel. And it was a copy that I sent him. So I actually had to buy a new copy for this show because he never gave me the book back, which I think I said as a gift. So I'm not like trying to call out Kilpatrick over here or anything, but, you know, I did have to get a fresh copy just to record this episode with y'all.

02:09
Case
I'll get you Kilpatrick.

02:11
Ryan
I feel. And, you know, based on the way this book is written, I can throw in some, like, scott's irish racial slurs. And, you know.

02:17
Case
Yeah, yeah. I have a note in the outline that we definitely needed to talk about the treatment of race in this, which I think is actually kind of interesting. Yeah, yeah, I. I mean, I think, yeah, we'll get there, but, yeah. So this is a 2005 novel by Tom DeHaven. It's basically the story leading up to action comics number one, like the. The last chapter or so. There's a couple of events alluded to that are the in, like, things that happened in the first couple issues of Superman. It's not super hardcore. Like, this is the exact cutoff point kind of thing, but it's basically doing. Here's the story leading up. Yeah, so I had read this initially around 2010 2012, somewhere in there. It's been about a decade. Jamec, had you read this before?

03:07
Jmike
No. No, I had not. This is my first time even hearing about this book when you guys suggested it, and I was like, okay, cool. And I read the reviews, and I think somebody called it Superman noir. I was like, that's interesting.

03:23
Ryan
I usually describe it to people as if John Steinbeck wrote Superman.

03:27
Jmike
Well, I got the audiobook, and that was 16 hours of someone talking just like this with voices just like this. And he stopped down and his eyes were gunky again. But I was like, oh, I see how this is gonna go. We're gonna get this going. This is gonna be a whole treat.

03:52
Case
So I listened to the audio version for this episode, and what was throwing me listening to it was that it was Scott Brick was the narrator who also was the narrator for Larry Tighe's book on the history of Superman. And in that, he's like, it's a very, like, here's the story of Superman, like, and the story of, like, how. How the comic came to be and then how, like, each iteration was sort of developed and so forth. You know, it's very, like, broad perspective, and in this, it's then not. It's, well, it's a third person narrator. It's, you know, he's actually trying to put on characters and so forth. And it was just an interesting vibe because it was the same person talking about the same subject but from a different lens.

04:35
Case
And I found that kind of interesting purely from a, like, oh, well, this is the voice actor that they're using kind of standpoint, like, not much. I rather enjoyed the audio version once I kind of got into the rhythm with it. Like, the first couple chapters, there's a lot more jumping around. You don't really establish the voices for the characters yet. You're kind of still just trying to figure out what's going on. You know, by the time he's doing all the parts, including soda waters, and misses O'Shea and all that. You're like, all right, you're having fun. Have fun with those parts. Yeah, but it's not like one of those, the more produced ones like american gods, where there's, like, multiple voice actors.

05:19
Ryan
I didn't check out the audiobook. I'm not really an audiobook guy, especially since I knew were going to be discussing this. I knew that I had to do an actual reread just because I would get distracted with an audiobook, and I probably wouldn't remember or take away as much. So I actually sat down and read it again.

05:33
Case
Well, that's good. No, I mean, I really enjoyed this at the time, and I really enjoyed the revisit. It's funny, I think the first time I read it, I was just sort of enthusiastic about the nature of, all right, so we're going to set a story in Dust Bowl, Kansas and talk about that character as if he was actually going to make his debut as Superman in 1938. I thought just that premise by itself was so compelling. And then I think that we end up with a book that it's a deconstruction. It's talking about the inner monologues of all these characters in this completely weird world where eventually Superman fights a robot.

06:11
Ryan
Well, it's like if you've read action comics, number one, they don't really go very far in terms of introducing the character. I know you guys on the show have talked about the evolution of his powers and all that. A lot of the more narrative versions of his powers and backstory didn't come until they had the radio serial and then the Max Fleischer cartoons. And that's where we get that whole faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive. But in action comics one, they're kind of like, yeah, he's a strong dude. He's from Kansas. He's raised an orphanage. Now he fights crime, and he's kind of just the squinty eyed, square jawed, all american man.

06:46
Ryan
And so I really liked that the premise of this book was like, well, let's, instead of doing the golden age comic thing, where we devote barely a page to who this character is and what he's about before getting into the story, let's do the exact opposite and spend just a ton of time delving into who this guy is as a character and worry less about what does he actually do with these abilities. I just thought that was a cool twist on the original premise.

07:09
Case
Yeah, I think this articulates really well. The thing I find so interesting about Superman stories where he's so powerful, but that power by itself is a burden. The first scene that we're really dealing with, Clark, the movie theater scene, I think is such an interesting exploration of a character dealing with the impossible. And he's the one who just did it. Like he just got shot and it didn't hurt. And in fact, the other guy died because it bounced off him and ricocheted into the person.

07:38
Ryan
And that's another. Yeah, that ties in. That ties in so many different things that I think even when I first read this book, after the first chapter, I was like, oh, I'm in. I'm gonna like this. Just because I love the setting. I love setting it back in the 1920s and thirties just because when you try to make Superman ship only have crashed, you know, within 30 years of his debut as Superman, or maybe a little even shorter than that, you run up to so many weird, like, things. It's the same thing that happens with, like, how did Nick Fury fight in World War two? How did Frank Castle fight in Vietnam? And, you know, wouldn't they be old men now?

08:11
Ryan
And so, like, if you try to say that Superman ship crashed in the eighties, then Mark Wade goes and creates this whole backstory where Martha Kent's like super into UFO's and UFO culture. And I'm like, well, that's weird. And I don't like that. I was from birthright, if you don't remember. And it was like, that didn't work for me. And so for me, it just works better to like, let's put this at a time before we even were really thinking about aliens and space people from the sky and just have it, like, have it be a complete mystery to Clark and his family what really happened that wound up with them having this baby on their doorstep. And I thought that was really cool. And then with the scene at the movie theater, I loved that.

08:45
Ryan
I loved when he goes to the sheriff's office and he notices that the sheriff does something left handed. And he's like, oh, that's great, because I'm left handed. And he's constantly looking for little things that he has in common with humanity because I think he knows deep down there's something deeply uncommon about him. And I just thought that was such a good read of the character and how desperate he would be to belong and to fit in with this human race that he finds himself among. And I was like, okay, that's good insight to this character. I think we're gonna have a fun time with this book.

09:13
Case
Yeah, it's a real strong hook into a character who oftentimes comes off as kind of opaque. Oftentimes the viewpoint character is like the Jimmy Olsen or someone to perceive Superman by rather than really getting into his head. And even when they try to, it still feels like, well, how much are you going to relate to this perfect person who is morally right in every moment and so powerful? And here I think we do a really good job of that. I think that you really illustrate just how terrifying and strange everything is for this person. And only at the start of the novel is he even coming to sort of some of those things, like him having these physical abilities. They talk about how he always felt uncomfortable about it. Now, finally, he's sort of enjoying the idea of running home so fast.

10:00
Case
And all these impossible things are just now starting to be a source of wonder and not fear.

10:06
Ryan
Well, because it's clear at the start of the novel that he is a person who has not. His natural lack. His lack of natural curiosity about himself and his abilities means that he has not really explored what he can do and come anywhere near the limits of his abilities. And that also fits what nicely with golden Age Superman, who was a lot less powerful than silver age or modern Superman. And I just liked that he needed other people to push him because as far as he knew, he was just like, well, I never really get sick. I'm not really ever hot or cold. Never had a cut, scraper, bruise. I'm just really tough. And that's all he knew about himself. It took him a long time to figure out that it went beyond just being tough, and it actually was super, not just exceptional.

10:49
Case
Yeah. And him not being curious about his powers, isn't that weird? I mean, like, I don't know how curious I'm about my own athleticism. Like, you know, he had his interests. Like, he had his concerns. He worked the farm dutifully for his parents. Like, he cares so much about ma ken, and it's just like a gut wrenching, like, slow death of her at the beginning of the book that is completely occupying his thoughts. They established that he's into science fiction, that he has all these interests, but they're not related to his powers. So he's like a nerd, which I think we can all relate with.

11:27
Jmike
I mean, maybe.

11:31
Ryan
I think if I suspected that I had anything approaching Clark's levels of abilities, I would be testing the limits of it pretty much continuously. Maybe that's the scientist in me just.

11:38
Jmike
Wanting to pull the shazam, or he's like, out in the middle of the junkyard, like, doing stuff.

11:45
Ryan
Yeah, yeah. If I'd never had a cutscraper bruise, I think I'd be pretty fearless about trying some. Just getting up to some wacky stuff.

11:52
Case
But I wonder sometimes with the depiction of those kind of sort of powers and explorations of that where if you ease into it, would you have the same realization that it's as weird as it is with a shazam scenario, like in the movie or just superpowers generally, where it's like, oh, lab accident, spider bite, whatever. There's a very dramatic shift. And if when he was younger, maybe he did stub his toe, but it healed really fast and it never really was an issue or very minor stuff on this fledgling super being where the concept of pain wouldn't be completely out there. He still gets hurt later on. And, I mean, sure, the typical thing of, like, oh, yeah, the needle really didn't work for any sort of, like, injections or anything like that. Like, all the classic Superman stuff is still there.

12:43
Case
But, like, he's like, what? Do you even realize that it's that different than just, like, a baby learning to walk in the first place? I mean, I know.

12:53
Ryan
I think Clark grew up on a corn farm, right? But, you know, my family comes on my mom's side, comes from, like, wheat farmers. And, like, farms are dangerous places. Like, it would. I feel like it would be obvious that, like, the fact that Clark has all ten fingers and ten toes and both eyes and has never broken a bone, like, while working at an active farm, is a miracle. Like, I don't know, farmers who don't get really badly injured in the line of duty, so to speak. So maybe that's just my. I believe that, you know, Clark is actively sort of ignoring or suppressing his own curiosity about how strange he truly is. And maybe it's just because he and his dad and his parents don't talk about it as much as they do in some of the other versions of.

13:29
Case
The character, but they're not good on sharing.

13:32
Ryan
No.

13:33
Jmike
Well, I guess so, because, like, I mean, later on, the dad talks to Clark a little bit more about stuff, but, yeah, I guess. I guess they would be really considered really bad at sharing their emotions and.

13:46
Case
Stuff, particularly Pa with Clark. Like, those two, it's a big hurdle for them to actually open up with each other.

13:54
Ryan
I don't know if we've ever seen another Superman story, at least not one that I've read recently, where, like, we learn about Pa's feelings about his own dad. And, you know, whether that's canon or not, I thought it was a good way to represent that character's hesitation about, like, he actually was kind of relieved every time, every month when. When Martha wasn't pregnant. And he was really scared of being a father. And I like that, you know, every person in this story, and a lot of times in the comics, they're presented as kind of these on a pedestal. You know, holier than thou, never done, never told a lie, never done a wrong thing characters. I like that they're shown as, like, more flawed and vulnerable and scared people in this story than we get in a lot of the other comics.

14:30
Ryan
And I tend to think of this story as, like, just another else worlds. It's weird that it's not in comic book format. I think it works as a novel. I think having it as a novel gives it a lot of room to breathe. But to me, this is like, and I think one of the criticisms people level of this book is that it's not a valid interpretation of Superman. But to me, it's like, no, this is just different version of the character. This is no different than Red sun, then the nail, then any of those other awesome elseworlds that exist out there.

14:53
Case
I think it is really interesting that we do have so much Runway with all these characters. I think, like you said, jonathan, particularly, like, the amount of insight we get into him is so unique. You know, usually we talk about, like, Martha, look.

15:06
Ryan
Look.

15:06
Case
Well, not just Martha, but, like, look at the Kents. Look like this wonderful family that raised the super child. Could you imagine if he was raised by anyone else? He may not have been such a good boy.

15:15
Jmike
He's all loving, all knowing, all wise, elderly mother and father who raised his kid, this alien kid.

15:23
Case
And I do think that the kins that we get here are still that good. But they have doubts and, like, they have issues that they have to work through. You know, like Martha, we don't get that much with, you know, aside from the amount of love that both Jonathan and Clark have for her in this one. I mean, we get a little bit, but, you know, but there's the cool.

15:43
Ryan
Thing about the way Martha is portrayed in this story, which is true for a lot of the other characters, too, is that, you know, one thing DC, like DC can't as a. As a giant media company. I remember there was a thing a couple of years back where there was a cover that Gary Frank drew that had a Paul and Clark leaning up against the fence post drinking a beer and they had to edit it to be a root beer because they can't have Superman drinking beer, even though it wouldn't affect him, he would be fine. And they're both adult. They're allowed to have beer. So the hoops that DC jumps through to prevent offending even the smallest percentage of people who are reading their comics means that we'll never know how religious Ma Kent is in the comics.

16:23
Ryan
They'll just keep it as vague as possible because they don't want to upset anybody. And here you have a relationship where Ma is a person of deep faith and it's really important to her and she talks about it openly. And Jonathan is a guy who has more doubts than not. And they kind of both give their perspective to Clark. And, like, you would never get that level of character introspection that actually, you know, hints at the fact that Clark Kent might be an atheist. Like, oh, my God, you know, and I thought that was so cool that he actually got to explore all these facets of the character that the comics are never going to be able touch.

16:49
Jmike
Holy crap. I never thought about that. You're saying this. I'm like, my gosh, I never realized that because, like, there's certain things that you try to take for granted that you never really think about. Like, oh, whatever he, his parents were, this and this. But we get Superman out of that. You never think about, well, you know, you never really hear them talk about religion, I think.

17:08
Ryan
Right. They just want people to assume, like, they want the idea, I think is like, if we are vague about it and don't ever say, then people will just assume that.

17:18
Jmike
Project their own stuff onto it.

17:19
Ryan
Exactly. You know?

17:21
Case
Yeah. I mean, the most we've seen when that or the most that we've, like, really looked at was like, in for all seasons where he goes to his reverend for advice at several points. And, like, there is a religious fixture of Smallville, the community there. But even there, we don't get that much specifically on how Clark or the Kents themselves feel about it, aside from just being like, they love everyone in their town.

17:46
Ryan
And, you know, you grow up in a small town, like, whether you're religious or not, the church is a hub for that community. And so the person leading that church is likely to be a source of, you know, guidance and counsel and moments of stress and doubt. It's not like Clark has access to a therapist. I don't even think, I wouldn't even know if schools had guidance counselors back then. So, you know, stuff like that doesn't, it doesn't bother me. It's just interesting that, like, this novel, because Tom DeHaven basically said, I'm only writing this if I get carte blanche to do whatever I want.

18:12
Ryan
Like, almost to the point of notes that he was able to play around with some stuff that the comics can't usually get into because there was that whole thing a couple years ago that Superman was going to vote in the election, in the presidential election, but they ended up being super lame and coy about. But did he vote Democrat or Republican? That's stupid. This is a dumb story.

18:31
Case
Yeah, I remember when they did the death and return of Superman. So Cyborg Superman saves Bill Clinton's life. And there's then an extended scene where there is a bar fight of people debating whether or not Superman was a demon or republican, and all just in the background right there. And they're just not allowed to really do that. He has to be a kind of centrist figure for everyone being like, yeah, no, he's a good guy. Right. And not have to, like, have a stance as hard in that regard.

19:04
Ryan
Now, Batman on the head. I'm just kidding. And what's crazy is that, like, towards the end of the book, I'd forgotten about this. There's a scene that heavily implies that there is an afterlife, even though both Superman and Lexdez different points say that they don't think there is. And then this just totally human character gets like, this, you know, could just be a coma dream or whatever. But it's, like, heavily implied that, like, oh, he was on the other side for a minute and then came back, which I thought was an interesting little twist to throw into, you know, everyone's talk of their conception of the universe and God and the afterlife and all that stuff.

19:39
Case
Yeah. In a lot of ways, Lex Luthor is actually not that far from Superman relative to the other people here.

19:46
Ryan
Like, well, and there's that. I mean, I thought about that a lot in terms of the super, the original idea for Superman, like, the Seagull and Schuster version was more like a Lex Luthor. Like, he was kind of an alien evil genius, not a big, friendly strongman, you know? Do you know what I'm talking about?

20:01
Case
Yeah. The reign of the Superman where he was bald and had psychic powers. And if only he had done good a little bit faster, because by the end of it, his powers have faded.

20:10
Ryan
Yeah. So, you know, that, to me, that version, like, clearly, I know there's other characters that version of Superman has kind of bled into a little bit like ultra humanite. But I always think about that. The fact that Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster's earliest ideas of a Superman ended up being more of their Lex Luthor character than their actual hero character.

20:29
Case
Yeah. I mean, they certainly act as the big gravitational forces that we're just waiting for them to interact and everyone else kind of orbits around. The reason why Clark really gets on this path is because he meets Willie. Willie is on this path because of Lex Luthor directly. You know, like, you can feel how their existence is going to matter so much when they come together, and that everyone they interact with is kind of pushing the two of them to get there, if that makes any sense a little.

21:00
Ryan
I mean, I think the biggest departure that this story takes from the Superman stories we've known from before is that Clark doesn't go from Smallville to Metropolis like in almost every other Superman story I can think of. There's not really any stops in between. I think in birthright, he spent some time as, like, a student bumming around in different parts of the world.

21:22
Case
But man of steel, like the John Byrne man of steel, he wanders around and he eventually settles in Metropolis, they.

21:28
Ryan
Say, yeah, but in stories like Smallville, Metropolis is literally the skyline you can see from the water tower. And it's always been this sort of, I've got to get from out of my small town into the big city. And that's something he really wants. It's a goal he pushes towards in his adolescence. And here it's like he's so conflicted about whether or not he wants to leave Smallville ever. And then when he finally does, he ends up basically becoming a train bum with his buddy Willie, and they end up in Hollywood, and he ends up making pictures. And I just was like, wow, this is such, like a wild swing for how he ends up eventually in. And there is no metropolis in this story.

22:05
Ryan
It's just New York City, which I think that might be the one part of the book that doesn't totally work for me. I really missed having the city of tomorrow as, and they make a lot of references to New York City being metropolis. You know, they mentioned the movie. They mentioned they have an art exhibit and all sorts of stuff. But, yeah, him, the idea of him doing stunt work, you know, throwing himself off a horses and down the desert cliffs in California, I thought was the. The part of this book that I expected the least, and I was surprised I didn't hate it.

22:32
Case
Yeah, I enjoyed. I mean, part of it is I very much enjoyed Diane Dewey as just sort of like a different love interest for the character. Like, it's fun, that's alliterative, but a different alliteration from what all the other things that Superman gets. You know, the double L's, it's also.

22:51
Ryan
Like the double L's could be, like, left, and then the double D's could be like dextrous for right, like, and on different. Two different coasts. I just. I just thought of that. I had.

23:00
Case
That's. That is a wild take right there. I would not have thought about that.

23:07
Ryan
It probably means nothing, but it just came.

23:11
Case
But I do like her as a character. It felt nice to explore that phase of Clark's life right out of, not college, but that age range, that 21 year old phase, trying to figure out who he is and make the most of his talents. For the first time, in not a really selfish way, he's taking the hits for people who may not have survived those stunts, which I think is still kind of an interesting vibe. It made me think of Simon Williams Wonder man as an aspiring actor type character, but less spotlight focused. That character is usually more of a glory hound type, or at least is presented that way in shorthand. And here it's like, oh, no.

23:57
Case
We get to look back on Golden Age Hollywood pictures, the studio system and whatnot that people oftentimes have a fair amount of nostalgia for and kind of explore that scenario, explore him being a stuntman, which is a fun idea because he's not going to get hurt. And it gives a way for him to get to the costume without it having to be his blanket or his mom because his mom dying was part of his original origin. Ma dies first, then Pa, and then this actually gives us some time with that and some a chance to really feel that all out before we get to the actual character. And that timeline would not allow for Ma Kent to create the Superman costume.

24:39
Ryan
Right. In this version of the story, they don't say that they found him wrapped in anything. They never seem to recover the ship that he crashed in. This is a time that would have predated radar and sonar and ground penetrating radar. So it's not like the government swooped in and took it back. Like, as far as we know, the ship is just lost. It broke up on its entry into our atmosphere. And they have a scrap of it that they can tell is a weird alloy. They don't know what it is, but he doesn't have a lot of evidence about where he comes from. So, like, the idea of the s being the kryptonian symbol for hope and all this other stuff. Like, there's no basis for that in this version of the story.

25:16
Ryan
You have to just come up with a different way to dress him up. Like a circus strongman.

25:20
Case
Yeah. I love the tongue in cheek bit there where it's just like, why would a saucer man from Saturn have an s? Do they speak English there?

25:28
Ryan
Because Clark is a science fiction nerd.

25:31
Case
I appreciate that because it was a good chance to comment on a bunch of the elements of the Superman costume that feel like, well, why would they do those things? And I thought it all kind of worked well. And I like the idea of Clark as he's kind of coming into this idea of the pageantry, of being Superman. Gets fascinated by the outfit. Diane makes these costumes for Hollywood productions, and he's just trying it on, being like, it fits pretty well because he's.

25:56
Ryan
Also, he's a farm kid. Like, he's never, you know, he doesn't dress up a lot. Like, he just wears working man clothes and works and, you know, in that sense, I think the closest we've ever gotten to this version of the character in the comics is when Grant Morrison did his jeans and boots reboot of Superman. So, like, if you've read those comics and you thought that was a cool, I thought that was a really cool direction for the character that I don't think they went far enough with in the comics. I think they gave him a pseudocretonian armor way too soon and just kind of went back to the same old. So, like, if you liked that version of Superman but didn't feel like you got enough of it, I think this is an awesome book for folks to check out for that.

26:31
Case
Why don't we talk about Lois Lane for a second here? Because I really like the character. I like the character always. Lois Lane is one of my favorite parts of the Superman mythos, especially when they get away from being too damsel and distressy, which I think is a lot of people's read from 50,000 miles, but, like, not when you actually really get into the character. I like that we introduced, you know, we're introduced to her as, like, an up and coming journalism student. Yeah, I like that she immediately, like, moves out of what, the arrangements her dad put, like, set her up with so that she could, like, smoke and drink and have a boyfriend and, you know.

27:07
Jmike
You're not drinking, are you?

27:09
Case
No.

27:10
Ryan
She looks like cocktail shaker.

27:12
Jmike
Of course not. You're not messing with any boys, are you? Never.

27:18
Ryan
And the way she's described, at least physically, like, to me, in my head, all of the characters look like the versions in the Max Fleischer cartoon.

27:26
Case
Yeah.

27:27
Ryan
So, you know, I like the way they describe her. You know, she's clearly very attractive. Everyone's constantly checking her out in the book, even her teachers. Yeah, well, that guy.

27:36
Case
Yeah.

27:39
Ryan
But I liked that. She was clearly smart. She was hungry. She was, you know, again, this book, because you're able to have this omniscient narrator you can dig into what's happening in these people's heads in ways that you don't always get in the comics or in the animated or the movies or anything. So because novels, just prose, present different opportunities. And so you get some of her frailties, you get some of her failings. And she's not a perfect person, but she's a person that Clark is really infatuated with because there's that idea that she just represents something about this plucky little species that he finds himself amongst that he just can't help but fall for. And so I thought their dynamic was really good. I like the end of the book.

28:17
Ryan
She comes around a little bit and realizes that she needs to be a little nicer. But overall, I agree. I thought this was a really fun version of the character. And, you know, in the Max Fleischer series, like, Lois is only ever the damsel in distress because she throws herself in situations to get the story, presumably, and then ends up in trouble because she's trying to get the story of, like, a supervillain trying to set off a volcano in Metropolis. And so, like, how does that not end poorly unless you have Superman's powers.

28:43
Jmike
She throws herself into the volcano.

28:46
Ryan
Yeah, I agree. This is good Lois.

28:48
Case
It's fun having a chance to define what she would be like in this era because as the mythology of Superman has built up, we've added her being the daughter of an army general. And she's badass and tough, strong woman of today. But looking back at the vantage point of what is the 1938 Lois like? Well, she still stands up for herself at every point. She's maybe a little bit of a wild child when she's in school still, you know, she still has enough of a moral compass in general. Like, she helps out people who are in need. She does not take the easy route of taking advantage of the fact that her teachers are trying to sleep with her. She sticks to her guns.

29:29
Case
And while she might have a bit of a temper and that leads to why she gets into such a fight with Clark at the end of the book anyway. Because she thinks that Clark took the Superman scoop from her, which is a nice rebuttal of that. That John Byrne scenario of Superman giving her the interview and then writing up the same article and beating her to the jump. I like that we actually got the kind of deal with that element of why that wouldn't have been cool of Superman because I always found that bit kind of annoying.

30:02
Ryan
Yeah. I like that she's already a little bit established as a reporter. She already has a job at the planet. She actually went to journalism school, whereas Clark only ever wrote for the local paper in Smallville. And I like that when she goes to these press conferences or these meetings or whatever, Lex stands up the podium and says, hello, gentlemen, and Lois and the mayor knows who she is, but they've never actually had a conversation. But everyone's kind of annoyed that this girl is doing this man's job of writing things down that happened. How dare she?

30:29
Case
And asking harder questions than anyone else there.

30:31
Ryan
Right? And I like that she just absolutely water off a duck's back. She does not care that she's ruffling feathers. She just plows ahead and gets the story and works. Works really hard. Like, you see how hard she works as a reporter in this, which is cool because I think a lot of times in the comics and the movies, they just gloss over the reporting thing. Like, it's just a thing that they, like, sit down and write a story. And you very rarely get the story of them tracking down leads and taking notes out in the field. And I love the scene where she has to call into the. Because there was no email, there was no text.

31:03
Ryan
So she calls into the planet and starts dictating her story to somebody to type up on the phone and telling them where to put the Em dashes and the capitalized letters and stuff. And I was like, oh, that's so cool. And it's like, it also feels, I don't. I don't. I'm not an expert on this period of american history, but it also felt like this is maybe a larger point. It felt like the way tom to haven writes about this sort of late in the Depression era of America, both in Kansas and in New York and in California. Like, it felt authentic to me.

31:33
Case
Yeah.

31:33
Ryan
Yeah.

31:33
Case
That, I think, is one of the strong suits of the, like of the book as a whole. Like, it feels so real. Like the cultural references feel really accurate.

31:43
Ryan
The way people talk.

31:44
Case
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, the things people are obsessed with the divisive figure that is FDR. All the references to where people. New York. I lived in New York for eight years. So there's all these spots where they're talking about locations of things. Now, I'm wondering if maybe I read this before I actually moved there because there's several spots where I'm like, I was literally at that block a week ago when I was visiting a friend.

32:10
Ryan
If you say that the city is really more of a character, I'm hanging up the call. I will.

32:17
Case
I mean, it's not. But it is nice to at least, like, have those tangible points.

32:22
Ryan
Right. Which you don't get in Metropolis because everything is on, you know, it's at the intersection of Schuster Lane and Seagull Avenue, you know. Right.

32:30
Case
Yeah, yeah. No, in this case, they actually have to be. And I think given one of the sort of elements of the larger piece like this, the fact that Superman was introduced between world wars. And there is the conversation in this all about the looming second world war that everyone knows is coming. Having tangible things, having real locations to reference and elements that are no longer there. Like, five points, for example. The fact that you can have a reality that is so close to ours allows for some of those things to have weight that it wouldn't if it was just metropolis.

33:06
Ryan
Yeah. And it's cool. I mean, it happening between the second. Between the first and second world wars is also interesting because, you know, the original Superman character, which I'm sure you've talked about on the show, was not really an establishment person. Like, he was kind of. He went at it with the cops. He went at it with. A lot of his early villains were war profiteers and tenement lords who weren't taking care of their tenants. And guys who beat their wives, which they reference in this. They reference it also in this book. Like one of his earliest stories, he's flying to the governor's mansion to prevent a woman from being executed who was falsely accused. So he was very much like a SJW social justice warrior. So apologies for taking Superman out of the safe space, but that's where we're at.

33:52
Ryan
And it was really World War Two that kind of brought him around to being the big blue Boy scout, to being the guy who was super pro establishment, who buy your war bonds and stamps, let's support the boys in blue overseas. Really, World War Two was kind of a pivotal changing point for the character itself. And so to get that sort of pre World War two version of the character and a character who's self aware enough to know that, like, probably not a good idea for me to go over there. It doesn't seem like that's the best use of my abilities. And I like that he had that sort of self awareness. At least it was hinted at. So, you know, would this book ever get a sequel? And that's something I would love to talk about with you both.

34:25
Ryan
Maybe closer to wrapping things up. You know, I don't expect that the sequel would be him in Japan or in Europe, you know, fighting in World War two. Although there is a Fleischer cartoon where he goes to Japan and it's super racist. But, I mean, the Max Fleischer cartoons have a few really racist episodes, but the animation is beautiful.

34:45
Case
Why don't we pivot into that one? I realize I have an outline that we have not followed at all, but we should talk about the specter of race that pervades this book because it's set in the mid thirties and it is like, I think it's one of the best parts about the characterization of Jonathan that he does not care about race, but it's very explicit that is not the norm.

35:07
Ryan
Well, Jonathan and Lex are the only two people, right?

35:09
Case
Yeah.

35:09
Jmike
Yeah, I was shocked.

35:12
Case
Like, Clark has inherited from Jonathan also sort of a like.

35:16
Ryan
But Clark has a naivete about it that is challenged a lot through the course of the book, which I think is obviously like Jonathan and Lex are static. They don't have any. There's no arc about their characters when it comes to race. Whereas race is something that Clark thinks about and is learning a lot about. And there are parallels to him obviously being also an outsider in his community, but one who can pass. And I think that's a really interesting juxtaposition to think about.

35:42
Case
Yeah, I think with Clark, he's observing how people do other people. That is a consistent thing that he keeps stumbling across, rejecting it, but also being scared by it. You know, like Clark's. Clark's ability to, you know, as you say, he can pass. And so he does not want to expose himself too much because he's terrified of being rejected for those same kind of things.

36:04
Ryan
And I also think, I mean, you know, I think this book is commenting on race consciously. Like, it's literally, you know, the first scene in the book is a racially.

36:10
Case
Oh, yeah, no, it's super on purpose moment that happens. Yeah.

36:13
Ryan
And they talk about the american nazi party and they talk about the Klucas Klan. And, you know, the first radio serial that Superman was in was Superman smashes the clan. And I actually think Gene Luan Yang's comic book adaptation of that is another version of this character that's very similar to the version we get in this book. Oh, Superman, who's still young and learning his powers and not so sure of himself. But yeah, I think a part of this book I'd forgotten about in between my reading at the first time in this reread was some of the stuff he witnesses on the rails when he and Willie end up in that town where there's a lynch mob. And I was like, man, that's dark.

36:46
Case
Like, yeah, it was real dark.

36:49
Jmike
It was very dark. I was not expecting that in this book, only because you never really get that.

36:55
Ryan
There's not a lot of Superman stories where he finds a dead body in a safe and then gets tortured by the town folks.

37:01
Case
I mean, when we talked about the death of Superboy arc that they did in the eighties following crisis, there's a lot of, like, oh, look how Pleasantville, this alternate reality version of Smallville is right there. And, you know, I made the joke, like, is Smallville a sun downtown? And, you know, it was kind of a thing of like, well, in this scenario, they're not exploring it, they're not investigating it. Even though it was interesting that the non white members of the Legion of superheroes didn't step in, like, didn't go into town. And I don't know if that was being consciously avoided or if it just was a happy accident. But, like, this is a book where it's like, no, no. It's rural Kansas. They're traveling around and dealing with a lot of that. And then, and that's nothing.

37:42
Case
That's still the case when they get to Metropolis or to New York, there's a lot of anti semitic sentiment that happens throughout. It's a big driver for Willy, actually, as a character.

37:54
Ryan
And if Superman's anything, he's jewish.

37:58
Case
And then even characters who we kind of like, Seal Stakowski is very racist against the Irish and against. She makes, at one point, she's trying not to be racist, but she's like, will there be colored girls? And it's like, that's, it's interesting then that, like, several, at several points, like, Lex Luthor is the more evolved man in those scenarios. Like, the fact that he really does not like the concept of racism.

38:22
Ryan
It's also, but, like, I think it's just because he's a, I think my read on that is because Lex Luthor's a misanthrope. He doesn't like anybody. Like, he thinks. He thinks everybody's below him no matter what this color of your skin is, you know, like, he just doesn't respect any other person but himself until he meets Clark. And another way that I think there's an intersectionality with the way this book deals with race is the fact that they said it in dustball era Kansas means that, like, the tents are poor. Like, they don't have much. Like, they're not. And they have land, but not as much land as they could. Like, Jonathan inherited a bunch of, you know what, the bit he has for Martha's family, which I thought was a really interesting bit of backstory.

38:58
Ryan
And the thing I like about that is I remember when I, you know, when the Smallville was first coming out, the Tom Welling show, and I remember looking at the set that was supposed to be the Kent farmhouse. And I was like, this is a really nice house. Like, they live in upscale, like, large farmhouse. Yeah. And then sort of, like, juxtapose that with the way that the farmhouse is written about in this book where it's like, Paul Kent didn't spring for electricity because he didn't think he would need it. And even by the end of the book, it's not even in all the rooms in the farmhouse. So I just thought there were some really cool touches with the way, like, they were poor, but then they also, like, were dealing with even poorer black folks.

39:33
Ryan
And they mentioned, you know, they mentioned the mexican community doing the farming when he's in California. And then there's everything with the jewish community and the polish community and the irish community when they're in New York City. And, yeah, I thought it was. And I. But most of the time in this book, Clark barely has two nickels rubbed together, which is, I think, also part of what plays into his sympathies. And then just sort of him connecting with people who are treated as outsiders and are treated as different because even though he isn't, he feels like he should be. And it's almost like this self flagellatory thing that he does. Yeah.

40:00
Case
And I mean, like, you know, some of that, obviously, is coming from Jonathan. Like, one of the big sticking points for Jonathan in the community of Smallville was that, you know, like, the. What was the deal that the church was built by, like, the native american community that was living nearby and, like, then they weren't actually allowed to go inside. Wasn't that the.

40:17
Ryan
You're right. There was something about that I don't remember exactly what it was, but yeah.

40:21
Case
And that's why he rejected going to that church, because he was like, wait, you're going to hire these people to build it, but then you're not going to allow them in. And that continues to be a big thing for Jonathan. The fact that he accepts Alger first into his home and then Alger's family into his home, which I think is such a nice through line because Alger, we're introduced to right at the top of the book, and the fact that he continues to become like a closer and closer member of the Kent family, that's a reason why people don't go to Jonathan's funeral at the end, because he invited colored people into his house. And that's very clearly being stated as bad. When I say that they talk about race in this.

41:01
Case
I mean, they talk about race to point out that racism is bad. Just for the record, if anyone's listening, being like, what the fuck?

41:09
Jmike
What are they talking about?

41:10
Ryan
Yeah, I agree with that take.

41:13
Case
Yeah. So why don't we talk about Luthor a bit? Because we.

41:15
Ryan
Real quick, though, it's interesting that we never exactly find out what soda's race is.

41:19
Case
So. Yeah, so I was thinking about that. I doubled back a couple of times to be like, wait, was there a reference?

41:25
Ryan
And I mentioned it being an old colored folk pool hall, which, you know, were huge back in the day. I live in DC. We still have them here in DC. It's awesome. And apparently Martin Luther King Junior was a pool shark for people who didn't know. And he used to, like, get used to getting young men to come to rallies by being like, if I beat you at pool, you gotta come to this rally tomorrow. And then he would just whoop him. And it was, yeah, fantastic. But yeah, I thought that character didn't do much for. I didn't even remember that character and didn't do much for me this time. I thought that the relationships that she had were not the most interesting part of the story.

41:56
Ryan
But I did notice that, like, they say that she took over this club that used to be a pool hall, but they never say what race she herself is, which was kind of interesting.

42:04
Case
Yeah, well, and they compare her to black singers, right?

42:07
Ryan
They do.

42:08
Case
They never. They never are come out. And I was thinking about that when we get to the end of the book, where or not the end, but.

42:15
Ryan
The only evidence we have is that she, while intoxicated, interacts with several cops and isn't beaten or killed.

42:21
Case
And so well, but they also ignore her.

42:23
Jmike
Yeah.

42:24
Case
And, you know, like. Like, she's. They paint her as an older woman. And when they say, like, she's 37, I was like, oh, man, that's just.

42:33
Ryan
You did me dirty, Tom Dehaven.

42:37
Case
But I get at the time, like, you know, if you're gonna be sexist.

42:41
Ryan
You said you want to talk about Lex. I distracted us.

42:43
Case
No, no, it's cool. But, yeah, I had the same thought about soda, that it's weird that she doesn't. And I wonder if it. If the fact that no one is paying attention to her is indicative of the fact that she's supposed to be a minority. But Lex wouldn't care either way. As you pointed out, he's kind of just a misanthrope. I'm gonna be honest. Like, this book got me interested in some of New York history because I had no idea what an alderman was when I first read this book. And I was like, what is that? And I had to, like, look it up.

43:09
Ryan
Well, tell us. I don't know.

43:11
Case
It's basically like a council of, like, it's supposed to be like elders as a general concept, but now it's a big part of the gilded age, which is why I sort of, like, was like, oh, yeah. I first learned that term from this book.

43:22
Ryan
Alder. Any genus of toothed leaved trees or shrubs of the birch family. I don't think this is our definition, but, yeah. No, the book does a good job balancing, because Lex Luthor was a mad scientist for most of Superman's history. And then it wasn't really until the 1980s that he became, like, the business guy. It's almost as if there was a trend happening in America at that time. It would have meant that a businessman would be seen as more evil than a scientist anyway. But I thought they balanced him as sort of a fledgling politician, businessman and scientist. Well, and definitely an evil genius. And definitely, like, a full on sociopath psychopath. I never know exactly which of those two terms I'm supposed to be using. And I think, you know, they never tell us exactly how old he is.

44:09
Ryan
But I think we're getting similar to Smallville or the other characters in this book. We're getting a slightly younger version of him than we would see in the comics, but not that much younger. And I definitely can kind of get the Gene Hackman Lex vibe. But as a younger man, I think the character's written with sort of that voice a little bit, that whole, like, I'm the greatest criminal mind of a generation, you know? That pomposity, if I can use that word correctly.

44:36
Case
Yeah. I took him as being, like, very late twenties or early thirties at the start of the book. And then by the end, it's like mid to late thirties for his kind of role in it all. I found it really interesting trying to juxtapose the straight up, like, he's corrupt in government and all that kind of thing with just the number of schemes he has in this whole thing. He has so many schemes going on and every moment he takes a note being like, oh, that would be a good scheme for later. He's got cat houses to the point.

45:02
Ryan
That it's kind of wacky.

45:06
Case
He's got a hospital for retired crooks. He is constantly embezzling money. He's moving stuff around all over the place. At the same time, he has the legitimate business side, which, you know, we don't really get to like his ultimate plan. But it's kind of implied that he was gonna, like, wipe out all the world leaders by way of his robots.

45:26
Ryan
Or at least blackmail them. Yeah, yeah. He's very into blackmail. This version of Lex, everyone gets a robot.

45:35
Case
It's the next essential thing.

45:38
Jmike
And I'll never hear, only ever here. Lexus as Clancy Brown. So the entire time I was listening this, I was. I was slowly chuckling to myself, I don't know that.

45:46
Ryan
I don't know this version of Lex's voice has dropped to that level. But when they talked about him getting some sun and, like, getting a little bit bronzed skin, it made me think of the Tim. Bruce Timm Clancy Brown. Because I feel like the way, like, bruce, the Bruce Timm Paul Dini Superman era was. It was unclear to me if, like, they were trying to code Lex as a black guy. Like, it. His, you know, his Clancy Brown's voice is sonorous and deep in the way they colored the character. The skin tone was dark enough that I was like, I could totally see this guy. I could see this as a not white person. As a kid, I think I was a little confused about, like, what, who's Lex supposed to be exactly.

46:20
Case
Yeah, that debate is not uncommon. Like, my sister, growing up, always thought that he was supposed to be black in that. And I was like, oh, but the comic character is white. So I just had just assumed, and I know that I see it pop up every now and then that, like, that specific iteration was supposed to be black in terms of, like, what fans thought. I have no idea what the actual intent was. Well, I should say I have some idea of what the intent was because he was supposed to look like a Bond villain. But I don't know if the actual final ideas had started to go there. I'm not sure. Either way, I think that this is a really fun way of having this character who has so much going on and he's responsible for all the bad things in this.

47:00
Case
It's him dealing with a crooked pawn shot that he controls that sets off Willy on his path. The various times where he's fucked around with stories that Lois eventually started to investigate that we find out about that. And ultimately, of course, the climax of this is Superman fighting a robot that he didn't design himself, but he is responsible for the existence of and the fact that it was combat ready. Even if it was going to be a version that was supposed to serve martinis. I think they do a good job of trying to make a case for how Lex Luthor could make sense because he's so evil sometimes. That. And, like, especially, like, mad scientists Lex, you're like, well, why would he do that? And, like, usually the argument is that, like, well, nowadays, he would actually just start a business and become rich.

47:46
Case
And in this case, he did that. Like, he became a government.

47:49
Ryan
There's a scene where he's a little introspective about that, where he's like, I could just have money and be rich and be done with it. And he's like, no, I want something more than that. I want, like, he.

47:58
Case
Yeah, there's a.

47:59
Ryan
There's, like, a power hungriness in him that he himself can't really identify. And I think that's really interesting. Like, I like the idea of Alex Luthor, who's like, I know I got to be doing crimes. I don't totally know what my motivation is here, but I can't just make money and be content. I got to crime it up somehow.

48:16
Case
Yeah. Halfway through the book, he basically has realized that he has all the political power he will ever need. He has all the wealth he'll ever need. He has everything he could possibly want. And it kind of gets nihilistic, which is why we get the sort of robot plot. And then at the end, it's the first time he's happy to. Like, in the whole book, he's like, I have met my match. I can chat like I'm challenged by a person. This is exciting.

48:38
Ryan
To the point where he's willing to help Clark out.

48:41
Jmike
Yeah.

48:42
Ryan
And get him a suit that won't get ripped to tatters.

48:45
Jmike
That was weird, because the suit just pops up at the daily planet, and he's like, what do I do?

48:52
Ryan
I mean, to me, Lex is the ultimate, you know, he's the ultimate board kid who should be in the gifting class, right? Like, he's. He's sitting in class bored out of his mind because he already knows this stuff. And, like, everything is. Everyone around him is thinking slowly enough that it's annoying. And so, like, he just decides, screw you all. I'm gonna do crimes.

49:09
Case
Yeah. So just a fun take on the character. And interesting that they went with Lex Luthor, considering that, you know, if this is supposed to be action comics hash one Superman, roughly like, Lex Luthor, is far away from actually being introduced at that point.

49:20
Ryan
Well, but by the end of the book, when the book ends, where action comics hash one is supposed to start, like, Lex is out of the picture because he, you know, got his schemes, got found out enough that he is on the lamb, so to speak, and will probably return at some point when he's figured out a new scheme for that. But, I mean, Lex is just so iconic. You can't do ultra humanite in this novel and have anyone care who's that person they're talking to?

49:44
Case
Here's a sidebar explaining, like, well, before Lex Luthor existed, they have.

49:48
Ryan
I mean, Clark at one point fights a giant gorilla. Like, that's. We got. We got a taste.

49:53
Case
I had notes to talk about Pauly, Sticky and Carl, which are Lex's three henchmen. Sticky I have very little thoughts about, aside from I distinctly remembered the scene of, like, Luthor coming to see him as he was, like, dying and ultimately killing him and then using steel as first a madam and then to name the Lexbots. And, like, that whole, like, thread there.

50:15
Ryan
You pronounce this steel.

50:17
Case
Seal.

50:17
Ryan
Seal. Okay. Like Cecilia, but just cut. Yeah.

50:20
Jmike
Okay, cool.

50:21
Ryan
Yeah, I was just.

50:24
Case
Yeah, it's Cecilia or Seal Stakowski is how it's written in the book.

50:28
Ryan
Gotcha.

50:28
Case
And ultimately, her character matters more in my recollection of the story because, well, first of all, her death is the thing that triggers the actual end fight because they go deal with her. But she just was a more interesting character as someone who thought the world of Lex Luthor and then realized that he murdered her husband. That kind of sucked.

50:50
Ryan
Right? And Lex Luthor, in my, other than Otis in the movie, Lex is not really a guy in my mind who has a lot of henchmen. He's clearly got, like, employees and people who work for him. And to me, Misses O'Shea was kind of the mercy. And I dug that. I thought that was a cool riff on the character. There's a couple of times where, like, Tom Dehaven doesn't just do the character that we know from the comics or from the mythology. He just does a version of it. Like, Willie is, to me, very clearly a Jimmy Olsen type, but isn't.

51:20
Case
Yeah, I saw a note that he was going to be like, Jimmy Olsen was going to be his alias, and that part got featured.

51:26
Ryan
It's that anti scandinavian sentiment that was running rampant in the United States at the time. They couldn't. They couldn't tolerate an old son in the story, even though they had Ben Yeager. Big Kraut. I'm german. I can say that. I can call him that. It's okay when I say it.

51:44
Case
Pauly is just kind of a douchebag. Like, he makes a point of being hating his dad, hating his friends, hating his partner, being cool with killing the person he technically works with, just an awful human being who stole a robot, and that robot went nuts, which you have to wonder if Pauly hadn't fucked up by taking it, if things would have gotten worse with Luthor.

52:05
Ryan
But then that's a whole can of worms, because Luther's plan is to give these robots for free to important politicians, business people, and Hollywood folks. And then the robots are really surveillance agents. It'd be like purposefully installing a speaker in your home that had a microphone built into it that was listening to you all the time and then using that to play music or set a timer for when you're baking bread. And I have one, so I'm being completely hypocritical right now, but that's basically the plot that he's putting out there as a super villain. Notice that one of the more popular brands of this particular, we'll call him a smart speaker, for lack of a better term, is a bald billionaire air with somewhat nefarious goings on.

52:55
Case
Yeah, with videos of him controlling robot.

52:57
Ryan
Arms, launching himself into space while his workers unionized. So that's his villainous scheme. And he talked about giving them to Hitler and giving them to Hirohito and giving them to Mussolini and Franco and all the. In addition to giving them to the british royal family and to the president's wife and to all these Hollywood people. And, like, you have to wonder with the way this Luther was portrayed on issues of race, if when word started getting out about something like the Holocaust happening, or if he picked up on it before it even started happening, because he had a robot in Luther's or in Hitler's chamber? Like, does the robot kill Hitler?

53:38
Case
I was wondering about that. I was like, wait. I mean, it would be probably pretty bad if he, like, had the robot do something to FDR, but it's also going to be with Stalin and Hitler. I wonder.

53:49
Ryan
So anyway, yeah, but the plan gets foiled by Pauly's stupidity and then Clark has to fight a big robot, which is kind of the only really big action set piece we get for the entire book. There's a few instances of Clark doing heroic things in a very quick blink and you'll miss it fashion. But this is the only real fight in the book.

54:10
Case
Yeah, a lot of the super events are after the fact. Clark first saves Willie by, like, tearing apart that, like, garage that those gangsters were hiding out in. Like, those were always told about it afterwards, like, right from the start with the, like, the criminal that comes into the movie theater. Like, it's from the perspective of Clark has already stopped the situation not the way he wanted to, but, like, he got shot and the bullet bounced off him. This is the only time we're in the moment, and this is also the only time where we're really in the moment with Superman as he deals with pain because he gets his ass whooped. And for a minute, there isn't even sure if he can continue the fight.

54:46
Ryan
Jim, I could sound like you were gonna say something.

54:47
Jmike
Yeah, I was like. I was like, is he hurt? Because, like, I hear he saw narrator saying this stuff. He's like, his knees are shaking, like, his hands are hurting. All this stuff. I'm like, did he get hurt? I'm like, oh, he got his ass kicked. And now he's kind of, like, stumbling around trying to figure out what to do next. I was like, oh, okay. Gotcha, gotcha. Now understand what's going on.

55:09
Ryan
To me, this version of that kind of fight worked so much better than what we get in man of Steel.

55:15
Jmike
Yes.

55:15
Ryan
Where Clark's definitely explored the limits of his powers more at that point. And, like, even if he's fighting another kryptonian, like, should know better than to keep that fight in the city. Whereas this Clark is genuinely enough of a rube that I can see him needing a minute to figure out how to tackle an opponent that. That can actually knock him around a little bit. It was kind of like you guys talked about this in the science episode of, like, clark would reach a point in his life where he would probably stop flinching because he wouldn't be anticipating pain happening to him whenever a punch was being thrown or a bullet was being fired. And this is a Clark who hasn't figured that out yet. He's not quite there yet. And. And he's a kid who's used to being the toughest guy around.

55:55
Ryan
And so when he gets hit and actually flies backwards and finds himself lodged in a building, I think he's so shocked that he just needs a minute to pull himself together to actually get back in the fight. And it's kind of. I thought it was a well handled series of moments for the character.

56:08
Case
Yeah, I rather enjoyed the description of that fight. It does make me think, oh, I'd like to see more of this. But it was, you know, it was good that we saved it for this one point in the book.

56:17
Ryan
I really like when fights are about the characters. Like, when it's not just, you know, like, I love a martial arts movie as much as the next guy. But, like, to me, the fight should also be telling a story about what these characters stand for, what they're about, what their values are. And this fight did a really good job of that.

56:33
Case
Yeah. Like a boxing movie, like a rocky. Like, it's way more interesting, everything that leads to the fight than the actual fight part itself. But the fight part is, you know, the culmination of all of that.

56:43
Ryan
This is definitely a version of the character that I could see putting on the gloves under the red lamp with Muhammad Ali and going for a couple around.

56:49
Case
That's true.

56:50
Ryan
And losing because this Clark has not trained to fight nearly as well as Ali did. So.

56:57
Case
Yeah. So just kind of going through other characters. I don't have a lot to say about Dick Sandglass and Ben Yeager, who are the cops that are trying to investigate Luthor. Interesting how it comes around. And again, all these characters sort of get tied up in each other. Ben Yeager is dating Lois while at the same time, Dick is investigating stuff and goes to soda waters and gives her a file. And how they all come back together. But that's more just the convenience of the novel than anything else. I do like that Ben Yeager becomes an actor at the end completely flipping roles with Clarke in that regard. Like he gets married to Skinny.

57:34
Ryan
I think the only character we haven't really talked about that warrants at least a brief mention is Willie. We kind of. I mean, we mentioned the Jimmy Olsen type, but we didn't really get into.

57:42
Jmike
I almost called him Pete from Smallville.

57:44
Ryan
Yeah, a little bit of that too.

57:45
Case
Well, it's the same role. There Pete was Jimmy Olsen, but for Smallville, like, for, like, superboy stuff. And, like, in that regard, he's there, but he's also older. He's more of a troublemaker. But, yeah, as soon as it's like, oh, he's a photographer, and they dye his hair red, I'm like, oh, he's the Jimmy Olsen. But he, I mean, I guess I could see this character getting into enough trouble consistently where he could be turned into a giant turtle at some point. But, you know, it's.

58:15
Ryan
I kind of like, by the end of the book, you know, the last chapter of the book is all the characters that we've kind of are still in New York City at the, by the time the book is ending. Go and see the play, our town. And have either of you seen our town or read it or been?

58:31
Case
I have, yeah.

58:32
Ryan
I was in it in high school. I was the choir director who's perpetually drunk, which is, you know, nothing cooler than a high schooler pretended to be drunk on stage for a bunch of people. And I don't know how to direct the choir either. So I'd forgotten about that scene at the very end. And I thought it was an astonishingly beautiful moment for all the characters because our town, as a play, for folks who haven't seen it, is about this small town in New Hampshire. And it's a very, like, I don't know, it's meta for a play from the 1930s, where it's like there's a stage master who's, like, describing the things that are happening, like breaking the fourth wall, talking right to the audience. And it sort of ends with a character dying.

59:18
Ryan
And the character gets the opportunity to relive any of the days of her life that she misses experiencing. And she tries it, and it's too painful, and so she can't do it. So she basically just returns to nothingness because the nothingness is preferable to the pain of remembering what it was like to be alive. And it's this beautiful play about the preciousness of life and what little time we have together. And it gives Clark a panic attack because he's like, I don't know if I'm ever going to experience death. And, like, that's freaking me out because, like, he had just experienced the loss of his mother and then lost his father. And, like, he knows that all these people around him that he's growing to love, that this human race that he's, like, dedicating his life to protecting, he might outlive and he's already.

01:00:01
Ryan
I think he's already feeling that sense of melancholy because, like, he and Willie have kind of drifted apart by that point. Like, it's been a couple of years. He's gotten Willie out of. Out of the legal trouble that he needed Clark's help with, and now Willie's, like, got his own life and is doing his own thing, and they just don't see each other as often as they used to. And, like. Like, we've all had friendships like that, but to be sitting on the other side of that friendship sort of fading away a little bit while also thinking about you being potentially immortal, I thought that was beautifully sad and just really hit home for me as I finished up this reread of the book.

01:00:30
Case
Yeah, it's very much a look at the same point that invincible makes, where it's like, what will you have in 500 years? Kind of moment there? And obviously, he doesn't know that he's going to live that long or if he would live that long, but it's certainly a terrifying concept for Clark to have to explore.

01:00:47
Ryan
Right. And Mark, you know, and when Mark has to answer that question, he's answering it to somebody who would still be there if they just put. Put their differences aside. And so, you know, Mark Grayson has answer. In that moment. He says, you, dad, I'd still have you. And that's what breaks omni man. And Clark doesn't have that other person in his life to say that to, and so he is alone, and it's really sad.

01:01:07
Case
Yeah. I really like the relationship between Clark and Willie. Like, you know, like you said, it feels very much like those kind of, like, young friendships or, like, young adult friendships where, like, yeah, you're riding the rails together. You're, like, splitting, like, a shitty apartment together.

01:01:23
Ryan
Like, it's your college buddy. It's the guy you stay up late with getting drunk, smoking weed, and being like, so, like, the universe, man. Like, what if it's. What if it's just, what if we're just, like, pages in a comic book? You know, it's. He's that friend, and, you know, you. You sometimes maintain those friendships into adulthood, but, like, you also sometimes grow up enough that relationship isn't what it once was. And it can be. I don't know, it can be sad to realize that, but it's also, you know, that's. That's part of growing up, I think.

01:01:49
Case
It's kind of like Siegel and Schuster, like, directly. Like, they were better friends. They did fancying stuff they created Superman, and then, like, we're as, like, careers and whatnot, they eventually, like, split apart as, like, as collaborators.

01:02:03
Ryan
I could see that. I could have seen them sticking together longer if they hadn't been so completely screwed over by national comics financially. Like, if they had just paid them money, maybe they wouldn't have been able to keep working on the stuff that they were doing.

01:02:15
Case
Yeah, yeah. No. If they had been paid a fair amount, I mean, because it was a big cash cow for them when it occurred, but it just wasn't. They weren't getting what they were owed for just the commercial juggernaut that was Superman.

01:02:29
Ryan
Unfortunately, that's the only time that's happened in the history of comics, and since then, it's been smooth sales.

01:02:33
Case
Yeah. No, there's never been a factor that has affected anyone that was sarcasm for.

01:02:40
Ryan
The listeners at all. That's happened a lot in comics.

01:02:44
Case
It's an editor's note from Stan the man. Like, I fucked over that artist.

01:02:49
Ryan
And I think the only nod we got to Siegel and Schuster was when they introduced Perry White. And they say that he was poached from a paper in Cleveland, which is where they were from.

01:02:57
Case
Yeah, I caught that. And that was also fun to indicate that Perry White was the new part there and that George Taylor had been there already and was the established figure just to sort of set up that, like, that shift from, like, the action comics number one status quo.

01:03:11
Ryan
Right. And I was bummed that we didn't get a daily Star versus Daily Planet Easter egg. I was looking for that, but they didn't include that in, because action, the Daily Planet wasn't introduced until action comics 23. I think it was the Daily Star up until then.

01:03:24
Case
Right. It was the radio show first that had the Daily Planet, and then it was back.

01:03:27
Ryan
You know, we owe the radio show for so much. I don't think. I don't think even the biggest comic book nerds know that without the radio show, we don't have kryptonite. We don't have. Yeah, we don't have the Daily Planet.

01:03:38
Case
You don't have Perry white. You don't have the Daily Planet. You don't have Jimmy Olsen.

01:03:41
Ryan
You don't have the Klu Kurtz clan.

01:03:43
Jmike
Yeah, I mean. I mean, I feel like they can keep that one.

01:03:53
Case
Well, we don't have a superhero actively fighting the Klux Klan.

01:03:56
Ryan
There we go. I like, that's a better, the act.

01:04:00
Case
Of opposition for these groups that are embedded in our society and that people are sometimes afraid to tackle you know, like, that's, that is one of the promises of a character like Superman. Like, that you can, like, no one's untouchable to him. Lex Luthor would be untouchable to most people either because he'd be afraid that he'd have you killed or you'd be afraid that you would be the one that ends up in jail. You know, Ben Yeager tries to take him on. Dick. Dick Sanglass tries to take him on. And they go down. Like, Dick dies.

01:04:26
Ryan
They build basically, an unimpeachable case. Enough that Lex Luthor has to take him out, and he does. And it's not that hard for Lex. And he kind of just does it and moves on. Right. And it's also like, you know, the, by the end of the book, like, Superman is a publicly known figure. He's been invited to the White House. He's afraid to go because he's afraid FDR is going to, like, tell him to join the army. And he doesn't want to say no because that would be rude. But it's also just like, but you could also kill the president very easily in that moment.

01:04:52
Ryan
Like, his ability to do basically whatever he wants is even though it's a much underpowered version of the character relative to what we would eventually get because it is more of this golden age type guy who can still get knocked over and isn't accidentally sneezing and taking out moons of planets when he does so. Yeah. So I thought they balanced the amount of power he has with the way that he wields it and his role or the way he sees his role in society as the guy who can glance out the window and prevent a guy from hitting his wife with heat vision. And I thought that, yeah. But also, he wants to do more. Doesn't just want that to be his whole life. I thought they balanced all that really nicely.

01:05:33
Case
Yeah. Let's talk about Superman's powers for a moment here because that scene with the heat vision, I loved. And I forgot that the heat vision was a thing he could do in this book after my first read because I was just sort of thinking like, oh, yeah, it's roughly the 38 power level and coming back and being like, oh, right. No, he has heat vision. And they have a really interesting way of describing how his eyes feel after he uses it. Like, they describe that it feels gummy afterwards, which I think is such a cool kind of concept there.

01:05:59
Ryan
It's a little, honestly, I gotta say, it's a little icky to me. I'm a little. A little creeped out. Gross. No, thank you. No, thank you.

01:06:05
Case
And that's why you wouldn't explore it if you're like, man, that felt weird. I don't want to do that again.

01:06:09
Ryan
I think the most important thing for a storytelling perspective, especially because this is prose, is not a visual medium, is the heat vision is invisible to everyone, including Clark. He just looks at something and then stares at it intensely, and then it catches fire. And so that helps him. A lot of this book is sort of the Clark doing things faster or more covertly than people can even notice that he's doing them. So if you had the heat vision be a thing that was obvious and blasting out of his eyes, I think it would actually hurt the story more than doing it this other way where things just get hot. And he's clearly got some form of x ray vision that doesn't seem to be as crazy impressive, but he's super tough. But he can get hurt. He does bleed at one point.

01:06:55
Ryan
He's super fast. He can jump and probably fly. But they never kind of fully establish.

01:07:01
Case
They indicate that he can change his direction. And that's him being like, I definitely can fly. I'm just not there yet.

01:07:07
Ryan
And he's still kind of figuring that one out. And then he's got the x ray vision, the heat vision, no super breath. But he does have super hearing because he can hone in on Lois Lane's heartbeat and he can tell if people are lying. And he actually seems to know anatomy well enough to know how to use that power really well. Which I thought was interesting because this is not written as the smartest or most educated. I think it's like they talk about this character being. I've seen criticism of this book that Clark is dumb. And it's like, I think he's as smart as a person who went to school in rural Kansas in the 1930s would be. He's not an idiot, but he just. He hasn't had a lot of life experience. He maybe.

01:07:42
Ryan
They say Paul Kent went to school through 8th grade. They don't say if Clark went fully through high school or not, but, like, finish. You know, if you were a farmer, an 8th grade education back then was probably enough to get. Get you by. You know, he's clearly literate and enjoys writing, but is constantly making errors in his writing, which I always enjoy, that Clark and Lois, like, aren't that good at writing.

01:08:04
Case
In different ways. Like, Lois can't spell for shit. And that's just a canon thing now. But Clark always gets, like, the year wrong or, like, a specific date wrong or, like.

01:08:14
Ryan
Or, like, so and so doesn't. Actually, you said they worked for this place, and they haven't worked there for a couple years now. Like, they work for us now. So he's just not up on the town gossip. But I think. Yeah, I don't think they introduce any other powers, do they?

01:08:26
Case
No, I don't think so, because super.

01:08:29
Ryan
Breath is the only major one that he has now that is referenced at all in this, like, freeze breath.

01:08:36
Case
Right. And I wouldn't be surprised if there was a moment where they reference him breathing on a thing they do.

01:08:42
Ryan
There's one moment where they mention, like, he sighs or he exhales or something. And they mentioned something about leaves rustling, like, really far away.

01:08:47
Case
But that's pretty cool.

01:08:50
Ryan
Yeah, I remember catching that when I was rereading. I mean, I literally just finished rereading the book. So it is very fresh.

01:08:55
Case
Yeah, it's fun, like, getting the chance in prose to describe some of these powers. The scene where he looks out the window and stops the man from hitting his wife by scorching his hand. It's like, that's the first time where I ever really thought about just how awful that would be to be. That person who got heat vision turned on him. Having third degree burns all of a sudden just manifest on your skin. I don't know. When it's beams drawn on the page, it's easier to think it's a concussive blast like a cyclops blast than just how terrible. Not. Not even like a sunburn, but, like.

01:09:27
Jmike
Radiation burns on your hands.

01:09:29
Case
Yeah, just like blisters and whatnot emerging.

01:09:32
Ryan
Funnily enough, third degree. Third degree burns do not hurt because a third degree burn is bad enough that your nursing, but usually, if you've got third degree burns, you've got second degree burns around the third degree burn. So you still have a peripheral painful second degree burn. But anyway, fun fact about burning your.

01:09:50
Case
Skin, not a thing that I want to have happen regardless. Yeah. But I feel really glad to look at this book again if anyone is listening. And, I mean, we haven't gone, like, super specific into the actual story. We mentioned that Clark goes to Hollywood and also there are robots, but it's still just a good book to read. Anyone who's listening, who is like, what the hell are they talking about? I'm always confused while you're listening to the show. But I would say, check it out. The book has a great narrative style to it. The audiobook, I also think works really well.

01:10:26
Case
It takes a minute to get used to the voice, but once he's, once characters really start talking to each other, and it's not just the more descriptive parts of setting the stage in the first chapter, it really kicks into high gear, and I think it's a really good read. So, Ryan, thank you for bringing this.

01:10:45
Ryan
I have a question for both of you.

01:10:46
Case
Sure.

01:10:47
Ryan
I came with a question. All right. So you can have one of three options. You can only pick one. Option one, they do animated movie version of this book in the Max Fleischer style. Option two, comic book adaptation of this book. You can pick whatever writer artist you want to do the comic book adaptation. Option three, a prose sequel.

01:11:09
Jmike
I would take this in the Max Fleischer style. I feel like it fits more.

01:11:13
Case
That's a real strong contender. I am wondering about a prose sequel. Yeah, you did mention you wanted to talk about a prose sequel. I'm going to lean towards the Fleischer style, but I am curious what you could do as the sequel.

01:11:26
Ryan
I think this book was good enough and fleshed out the world enough that I would trust Tom to haven if he wanted to do the next big adventure that Clark has in fully immeshed in New York City, fully being Superman, maybe introducing a couple more villains, maybe getting Clark a little closer to figuring out some of the kryptonian stuff. I think that would be a really compelling read. But I think seeing this animated in the Fleischer style would just also. It'd be so cool.

01:11:52
Jmike
That'd be really cool.

01:11:53
Case
Yeah. I mean, we're kind of primed to, like, the Fleischer idea for this one. For one thing, Fleischer Superman is super in right now with just pop culture representations of, like, old school Superman stuff. Superman and Lois uses it. Superman smash of the clan used it. Like, we're starting to see a lot of the black behind the s kind of design and whatnot. The COVID for the trade paper or not for the trade paperback? Pardon me? Just the paperback is a panel from the actual Fleischer cartoons, so that also kind of primes it. And the descriptions of the costume are the Fleischer costume. Like they talk about it's black until Lex Luthor gives him one where it's yellow behind the SDHE. So I definitely think, like, Fleischer is where my head goes to first.

01:12:35
Case
I would be really curious to hear Tom de Haven's pitch first.

01:12:39
Ryan
Okay, so you're taking an editorial role.

01:12:43
Case
If I was, like, green lighting one because like a comic version. I can't imagine really conveying the things I like about this book. The fact is, it's the format of being a prose story that I really like for it. And the most I could see is maybe accompanied by illustrations by Alex Ross and a Norman Rockwell style to kind of go along with it. But I still wouldn't even want it to be a comic book. I would want it just to be a book that happens to have some illustrations accompanying it. And even then, I probably would still prefer just to keep it purely as prose. Animated would be cool, though.

01:13:21
Ryan
I think it would be really cool.

01:13:22
Case
Yeah.

01:13:23
Ryan
Who do you get to do? Who do you get to the voices? I know we can't. We can't do all of them, but, like, who do you. Who do you cast as, at least? Clark and Lois and Lex.

01:13:30
Jmike
Gosh, I know I want for Lex.

01:13:35
Ryan
Okay. You still just want Clancy Brown.

01:13:36
Jmike
Yes. He's my.

01:13:39
Case
Michael Rosenbaum actually wouldn't be a bad version.

01:13:41
Ryan
Michael Rosenbaum actually would not be a bad version.

01:13:43
Jmike
Yeah.

01:13:44
Case
And he's a great voice actor, too.

01:13:46
Ryan
He's a good voice actor.

01:13:47
Case
I'm gonna be cheap, and I'm gonna say our friend Yuri Lowenthal for Superman on this one, because it's got that young Clark kind of vibe. And I think that would work really well.

01:13:57
Jmike
Lois.

01:13:59
Case
I want it to be Dana Delaney so bad, but it is a younger Lois, and, like, she's 66 now, so it's gonna sound different. The problem is that as a man in my mid thirties, like, trying to keep track of, like, the actresses in Hollywood who are the right agenda.

01:14:14
Ryan
Right.

01:14:15
Case
Or even voice actresses who sound like this 20 to 25 year old character. I don't know them that well. Off the top of my head, I just am bad at keeping track of all these because I'm like, well, a younger Lois. Like a Kristen Bell. That's not a younger Lois at this point.

01:14:34
Ryan
Yeah. It would almost be worse if you knew a ton of names and we're going through, like, well, I think maybe, like, a Chloe Grace Moretta might be good.

01:14:44
Case
Oh, yeah. Okay.

01:14:45
Ryan
I feel like she's got, like, she could do sort of the tough, you know, takes. Takes no guff ness. She's 25. I just looked that up. I did not know that off the top of my head. I'm gonna go. She would be good.

01:14:57
Case
Yeah, she would be really good.

01:14:59
Ryan
All right.

01:15:00
Case
Or, like, a Selena Gomez wouldn't be bad for that.

01:15:03
Ryan
There's no reason you couldn't. I mean, there's no reason you couldn't. Yeah. Mix it up. And I'm of a persuasion that, like, none of these characters has to be white. They're all white because of the history of publishing being pretty racist and bland. So if you want to mix it up and even fully make. If you want to cast someone like Selena Gomez and then make her Lois with a latin last name, I'd be totally into that, too. It wouldn't bother me at all.

01:15:27
Case
Well, as we see with a lot of characters in this world, a lot of people have changed their names to get around. The amount of prejudice that exists in this world perfectly would be in keeping for her dad to have changed their name to not incur any kind of public scrutiny like that. I don't know. Selena Gomez went only because I was obsessed with only murders in the building is why I immediately went there. And also, she was also in neighbors or neighbors, too, with Chloe Grace Moretz. So I don't know. Any of those would be fine.

01:15:58
Ryan
You could also do a Karen and Shipka, I think would be good. The daughter for Mad Menta in the Sabrina Netflix series.

01:16:05
Case
Okay. Willie is my question.

01:16:08
Ryan
Willie. That is a good question. He's gotta be a little older than Clark, right?

01:16:13
Case
Yeah, I'm thinking Adam Brody.

01:16:17
Ryan
I mean, are we still just.

01:16:19
Case
What is that too old?

01:16:20
Ryan
Now that's a good question. Paul Rudd. The guy's ageless. Does that age?

01:16:32
Case
Well, anyway, I think it's fun to speculate on this, but, you know, the other side of it is that it's still just a Superman property. So it's just us speculating on who would be great for Superman characters, with a couple of exceptions, like Willy's a little older than what a Jimmy would be. Like, Willy's older than either Clark or Lois in this, so it should be someone with a few more years on them.

01:16:50
Ryan
Sam Daley, Tim Daley's son. Do the node.

01:16:54
Case
Oh, for Clark or for.

01:16:57
Ryan
Well, you guys already cast Clark, so I wasn't going to step on your toes there, but, like, Sam Daley. As Willie.

01:17:01
Case
As Willie.

01:17:01
Ryan
Okay. I think Sam Daley is kind of a redhead, but not fully a redhead. And I just. I don't know why. Like, I. Let's keep it in the family. Let's give the dailies. Let's give the Daly some love.

01:17:10
Case
Why not? Let's go with it.

01:17:11
Ryan
I love Tim Daley. I think Tim Daly is probably my favorite Superman voice actor, but that's a different episode.

01:17:19
Case
Yeah, no, he's great. I rewatched. Pardon me. I didn't rewatch. I watched for the first time brainiac attacks last night because I realized I'd never seen it. And half the cast is from the animated series and the other half is not. And it is so awkward because the designs all look like the animated series, but then, like, it's Powers Booth as Lex Luthor and his personality is the Gene Hackman Lex Luthor, but he's designed to look like the animated series Lex Luthor.

01:17:44
Ryan
Well, Powers Booth's voice is closer to a Clancy Brown than it is a Gene Hackman.

01:17:47
Case
Not the way he does it, really.

01:17:49
Ryan
He puts on a voice. I'm sure I've seen this. I just don't remember.

01:17:51
Case
It's weird. And Lance Henriksen is brainiac in it, but he's designed to look like the brainiac from the animated series. Not good.

01:18:00
Ryan
I have a thing I was going to recommend to your listeners, but I just decided that it's a future episode of the show and I'm not going to spoil it right now. So I'll tell you guys about it off air.

01:18:09
Case
All right.

01:18:10
Ryan
You guys do ratings? Do we rate things?

01:18:13
Case
Ratings. Ratings we typically don't, usually will say if we liked it or not. I like this book a lot. I think that my enthusiasm when you suggested it and the fact that we're doing it indicates that, yeah, I'm pretty pumped about this whole thing. I think people should check it out. It's good. J Mike, this was your first time reading it? Like, what was your overall experience?

01:18:31
Jmike
Read it or listen to it? No, but it was a fun book. It took a little while for me to get into it because it started off very slowly. But like you said, he actually gets into the acting and doing the different parts the story picks up. Then you're kind of like, oh, this is kind of good. I kind of like this. This is fun. But it did cut. It did get kind of sad at the end. I thought it was in a little bit higher note, but Clark almost has, like, a nervous breakdown at the end. But it was still a good book, though.

01:19:06
Ryan
Yeah, yeah. I had forgotten how melancholic it gets at the end. That, that surprised me a little bit. And it had a pretty emotional, I had a pretty emotional response to even just reading it, which was interesting. But in general, I really like this book. I think it touches on aspects of the character that you just don't see anywhere else in ways that are different enough to be interesting but not inauthentic to who Clark and Superman and the rest of these characters actually are. Which is very important to me because I'm, you know, like Superman is someone I Superman and Clark are like characters that I take very seriously and care a lot about. And like, if I felt like a story about them, Washington false in any way, it wouldn't work. And I feel like my brain would reject it.

01:19:48
Ryan
And this doesn't do that. It toes the line ever so carefully and comes, I think for anyone who loves any of the Superman based elseworlds stories and for anyone who loves this era of american fiction, the of mice of men, the east of Eden, the great Gatsby, I guess this is a post great Gatsby. But like that era of fiction in that type part time period of America, I think we'll get a kick out of this book.

01:20:13
Case
Yeah, I think it's really fun. It's the only time where I've ever really related to Jonathan Kent. Like him talking about his relationship with Martha and they're trying to have kids. I'm like, well, at that point in my life now, I should be kind of thinking about those kind of things. And actually it was a very relatable experience there, which I normally don't get with that normally Clark or other people, not the dad who's like the moral figure, not the father knows best.

01:20:40
Ryan
Daniel Warren Johnson did a story in one of the Superman red and blue issues recently that was like kind of a Jonathan Kent story. And as a new father, it broke me. I was actually crying because basically Jonathan is really worried about being a good dad to Clark. And so he goes and like talks to a reverend or a priest or some sort of religious figure and the guy just says like, look, being a dad's tough. You just got to tell him that you love him and that he's proud that you're proud of him and that he's special. And so like the rest of the comic is just these little vignettes of Clark growing up and Jonathan telling him like, I love you. I'm proud of you. You're special. I'm going to get choked up just talking about it.

01:21:21
Ryan
And then it's like ends with Clark flying around the city saving people. And like as he's saving every person, he has this thought in his mind of like, I love you. And then the next person he saves, Im proud of you. And the next person he saves, youre special. And its like, oh, its so simple but its so effectively good. So this isnt the Daniel Warren Johnson.

01:21:38
Case
Is going to break you no matter what.

01:21:40
Ryan
He sure did, man. I already liked Beta Ray Bill. But come on, he just crushed it with that series. But yeah, that short little Superman story. I think in part because Im a new father just gave me a Jonathan Kent appreciation that I hadnt had before. But this book definitely does it as well.

01:21:58
Case
Yeah. So it's a good book, listeners, if you have not read it yet and again, still confused but you should check it out. It's a great read. It reads very quick when you actually have it in front of you. And J Mike, that's not crazy long for an audiobook, frankly.

01:22:17
Jmike
Oh, no.

01:22:20
Ryan
It was like 400 and change. So you know it's a good yarn.

01:22:24
Jmike
Yeah. Because I was, you recommended the book. I was like, okay, I'll look it up on Amazon, see if I can get the book. And I was like, oh, it's on audible. How does it get that? And I saw it, I was like 16 hours, huh. It's not that bad.

01:22:38
Case
It's not that bad compared to some of the true tomes that you can find on there. Anyway, so Ryan, thank you again for coming on. Give your plugs, like, where can people find you? What have you got going on?

01:22:49
Ryan
My name is Ryan. I'm on the Internet with my website, ryanhelp.com. That's h a u p as in Paul, t as in Tom. As my mom likes to say. I'm on Twitter as just, I joined Twitter early enough that I snagged that one. For those of you in the know with men's fashion, there is a german menswear brand called Haupt. And I occasionally get tagged with people being like, heading out to the club wearing my haupts. I'm like, good, go for it. I appreciate.

01:23:15
Case
Rock on. I love you. Yeah, I'm proud of you.

01:23:18
Ryan
You're special. I don't, I don't own any of these shirts because I'd have to like literally get them shipped from Germany. But I'm kind of like, it's the only shirt I would in my life. I wouldn't need to get monogrammed, so I should just do it. But anyway, as that's a total aside, Twitter helped Instagram, Ian helped. And I do the ifanboy podcast. So if you're into comic books and not listening to the IFan Boy Pick of the Week podcast, as well as the IFanboy Animation Brain Trust where we do the animated movies that are released in the comic book space, I do all those shows with those fine folks over there. And I do my own podcast called Science Order, which you can find@scienceorder.com or wherever you get your podcast, presumably even this one.

01:23:52
Ryan
And that is a show where myself as a scientist and other scientists talk about things that are science, things that are sort of science and things that wish they were science. So you might get an episode that's all about the cool technology of the James Webb space telescope. You might get an episode that's all about how, like, you can track, if you try to track the ecology of Bigfoot, it turns out you're just looking at black bears. So, you know, we kind of go across the whole spectrum of science. It's basically listening in on a lab meeting or a happy hour where a couple of scientists friends of yours are getting a beer and talking about what we're working on, what we're excited about. So that's all my stuff. And, yeah, just thank you so much for having me, guys.

01:24:30
Ryan
This was a ton of fun.

01:24:31
Case
Well, I've always enjoyed, whenever you've been on the ifan boy pick of the week podcast or any of the other stuff, like, it's just you stand strong for the millennials on there.

01:24:41
Ryan
I often tell them that I see myself as, like, the plucky kid brother, even though, like, I've, I'm a gray haired dad, but I'm just like, no, I'm the plucky kid brother to these gen x, these cynical gen Xers. And I will fight for the Power Rangers over GI Joe every single day.

01:24:59
Jmike
Oh, man.

01:25:01
Case
Well, and I also owe you a debt of gratitude because you recommended at one point the history of English podcast, and I started listening to that, and that put me in the mood to talk about Old English, which has resulted in, on my other show, me talking about Beowulf so many times because I was just, like, primed to talk about Beowulf stuff because I was listening to the history of the Old English.

01:25:22
Ryan
The history of Old English. It's definitely a homework podcast, but you learn so much if you commit to just like, I'm going to sit down and listen to an episode because you'll literally learn, like, the derivations of, you know, half a dozen, if not more words an episode.

01:25:36
Case
It's like, well, this is that guttural French being spoken when the Normans came over versus the French that came from the court, when other people came and intermarried and whatnot.

01:25:46
Ryan
To me, my wife and I watched a little bit of that show Vikings, that was on History channel for a while. And I don't know, I think it's on Netflix now. But the main character in season one is this actual historical figure named Ragnar Lothbrok. And I'm just like, that's such a cool name, Ragnar Lothbrok. And then in history of English, they talk about Ragnar Lothbrok because he was a real person, because. Because part of history was invading England as a Viking, not England, invading the British Isles as a Viking. And you find out, like, brach is the old norse word that eventually gets us britches. And loth in Old Norse is hairy. So he's literally Ragnar, hairy britches. And I'm like, well, that's not intimidating. Like, britches made out of hair. Like, what's happening?

01:26:27
Ryan
So it sort of gives you this lens of viewing the world, especially the english speaking world, just kind of breaks a lot of things about your perception of how things are when you kind of. You get x ray vision, but for words, I guess, yeah, it's always fun.

01:26:41
Case
Like, I've always been terrible at language, even though I was a classical studies major in college, but, like, I've always loved understanding the nature of language, and this was just a really fun one. So thank you. I am, like I said, in your debt for recommending that one.

01:26:53
Ryan
And, like.

01:26:56
Case
Where it's like, that was, like, such a revolutionary thing and J.

01:26:59
Ryan
Mike, what have I. J Mike, what have I done for you?

01:27:05
Jmike
I mean, I read this book, so it's lots of fun.

01:27:07
Ryan
There you go. Two for two. Love it.

01:27:10
Case
Nice. But, yeah. So everyone should check out science, sort of. Everyone should check out the ifanboy podcast everyone should find at hout, and then they should head on over. Well, they can add to Twitter. They can find me at case Aiken. J Mike, where can they find you?

01:27:27
Jmike
101 on Twitter.

01:27:29
Case
You can find the podcast in pod, and then you can head on over to certainpov.com comma, where you can find more episodes of this show and tons of other great productions that are going on, such as, I'm going to give a shout out to panelology. It's our own pick of the week podcast. Not so much a pick of the week, but a rundown of the weekly comics that have come out. So it's a great show. Alex is awesome and has been on a ton of time. A great introspective look at the comics that come out and what really stood out about them and why the art format in general just kind of matters, and why keeping up with these monthly books is important still. So check that out, and next time, we're going to be talking about the JSA, the golden age elseworld series.

01:28:15
Case
So keeping that golden age kind of vibe, right. I didn't mention this episode. It's going to be dropping right after we did an episode on the radio show. So, like, we're kind of doing. Check that out. Check. Check out our other shows. And until next time, stay super man.

01:28:33
Jmike
Men of Steel is a certain pov production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and case Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm. Our logo is by Chris Bautista. Episode art is by case English, and our theme is by Jeff Moon.

01:28:53
Speaker 4
Hello there. My name is Leo, and I'm here to tell you all about my Dune podcast, Gam Jabbar. The perfect podcast for new fans of Dune and longtime fans of Dune alike. My co host Abu and I dive deep in both spoiler free and spoiler heavy episodes covering, gosh, Frank Herbert's original novels, the film adaptations, the board games, the comics, the upcoming video games, the HBO tv series, anything we can get our hands on. We even have a companion book club series to make your first or your 15th read through even better. So if you recently saw Denis Villeneuve's adaptation of Dune, or if you read Dune back when it came out in 1965, this is the podcast.

01:29:40
Speaker 4
You can find Gam Jabbar on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, pretty much anywhere you find your podcasts, and we hope you join us on the golden path.

01:29:51
Case
So I have a question. Have you ever wanted to get into comics, but you just didn't know where to start? Well, welcome to Comics Quest. I'm JD Martin, and every week I sit down with you guys to talk a comic that I think anybody can pick up and start their comics reading journey. We take a look at psychedelic Sci-Fi fantastic action, heart wrenching love stories, and, of course, superheroes. So check us out@certainpov.com. Or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Cpov certainpov.com.