Episode 98 - Superman: Doomsday with Ryan Luis Rodriguez

We’re joined by Ryan Luis Rodriguez to talk about DC’s first attempt at adapting the Death of Superman into an animated feature, Superman: Doomsday.

Find Ryan on Twitter, Instagram, or Patreon, and his podcasts, The Coolness Chronicles and Reels of Justice.

SUBSCRIBE: Apple Podcasts • Google Podcasts • Spotify • iHeartRADIO • Stitcher • RSS

Meeting summary:

●      The meeting, titled "98 - Superman Doomsday with Ryan Luis Rodriguez.mp3," began with Matt addressing audio issues and introducing the hosts Case Aiken and J. Mike Falsen, who welcomed guest Ryan Luis Rodriguez. The discussion initially focused on reactions to the movie "Superman Doomsday," its comparison with other Superman media, and initial viewing experiences. This transitioned into a detailed analysis of the plot, characters, voice acting, and animation style, as well as critiques on character actions and the moral implications of the clone Superman. Lex Luthor and other supporting characters were analyzed, with critiques on the movie's pacing and plot structure alongside suggested improvements. The meeting concluded with final thoughts on the film, plugs for Ryan's upcoming podcasts, and promotion of the Certain POV network. Action items were assigned to Ryan to promote his spinoff podcast in October and to Case to prepare for an upcoming episode and create clips for YouTube.

Notes:

●      🎙️ Introduction and Guest Introduction (00:00 - 02:47)

●      Matt, the audio editor, explains audio issues and context of the episode.

●      Case Aiken and J. Mike Falsen introduce the guest, Ryan Luis Rodriguez.

●      Ryan plugs his current and upcoming podcasts.

●      🎬 Discussion on Superman Doomsday (02:47 - 12:13)

●      Initial reactions to the movie 'Superman Doomsday'.

●      Comparison with other Superman media.

●      Ryan shares his history with the movie and initial impressions.

●      Case and J. Mike share their first-time viewing experiences.

●      🦸 Analysis of Superman Doomsday (12:13 - 22:25)

●      Detailed discussion on the plot and characters of 'Superman Doomsday'.

●      Critique of the voice acting and animation style.

●      Comparison with other Superman adaptations.

●      Discussion on the portrayal of Doomsday and Superman's character.

●      🤔 Character and Plot Critiques (22:26 - 33:19)

●      Critique of Superman's actions and character portrayal.

●      Discussion on the clone Superman and its moral implications.

●      Comparison with other Superman clone stories.

●      Suggestions for improving the plot and character arcs.

●      💡 Lex Luthor and Supporting Characters (33:19 - 44:09)

●      Analysis of Lex Luthor's character and motivations.

●      Discussion on the portrayal of supporting characters like Mercy and Toyman.

●      Critique of the movie's pacing and plot structure.

●      Suggestions for alternative plot developments.

●      📢 Final Thoughts and Plugs (44:09 - 54:15)

●      Final thoughts on 'Superman Doomsday' and its impact.

●      Ryan thanks the hosts and plugs his podcasts again.

●      Case and J. Mike share their social media handles and upcoming projects.

●      Promotion of the Certain POV network and its shows.

Action items:

Ryan Luis Rodriguez

●      Promote the upcoming spinoff podcast 'One Track Mind' in October (02:47)

Case Aiken

●      Prepare for the upcoming episode discussing 'The Death of Superman' comic (03:40)

●      Create clips from the current episode for the YouTube channel (51:55)

00:00
Matt
Hey, folks. Audio editor Matt here, stepping into the very beginning of the episode to just clear up a few things. One, this episode was recorded before Annehansch passed away. And two, you're going to hear some audio bleed in very small moments because Ryan's audio track was also picking up case and J Mike. I cleaned it up the best I could, and for the most part, you won't really hear it at all. But there are some important key points that Ryan makes where there's some overtalking, and I just didn't want to lose the statement that Ryan was making. So it'll sound a little echoey in those moments, but there are few and far between. And for the most part, you won't hear any audio bleeder echo at all.

00:33
Matt
And I just wanted to give you.

00:34
Matt
All a heads up. So without further ado, enjoy this episode.

00:37
Ryan
I bought this dvd. First day like this was a big deal because the Justice League Unlimited had just ended, so they were doing feature length cartoons with some of the people who did those cartoons, and I was whole hog on board loved it at the time. And then I rewatched it on HBO Max, and I'm like, oh. Oh, well, the things I like about it, I still like. But all the other stuff, nah, not so much.

01:29
Case Aiken
Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, J. Mike Falsen.

01:35
Jmike
Welcome back, everybody. Such a pleasure to have everyone here with us today.

01:38
Case Aiken
I mean, this day is a gloomy one, some might say a doomy one. Today we are talking about the animated series Superman Doomsday. And for that conversation, we are joined by Ryan Luis Rodriguez.

01:51
Ryan
Hello.

01:53
Case Aiken
Hey. Hey, riot. I'm so glad to have you on finally.

01:57
Ryan
Yes, it is an honor, gentlemen. It is an honor.

02:00
Jmike
The pleasure is all ours.

02:02
Case Aiken
Yeah, no, I had such a fun time going on reels of justice and chatting with you and just chatting with all of you. You got a great crew over there, but since this is your first time on the show, why don't you give a quick plug what you got going on? But we can spend more time on it at the end of the episode, too.

02:18
Ryan
Sure. I'm currently doing three podcasts. One is coolness Chronicles. It is a subjective, pop culture history show. Just wrapped up 100 episodes on the greatest thing ever, mystery science Theater 3000. And now I'm gonna wrap up season two with airplane, the movies and filmmakers that inspired it and the movies and filmmakers that had expired or inspired, rather, it didn't expire them. And once that's over, I'll be doing in October a spinoff called one track mind, where I analyze films through their audio commentary. And I also have the aforementioned reels of justice. Fake movie, court, judge, jury. Executioner. I guess not executioner, but, you know, judge and jury.

03:03
Case Aiken
Yeah. Well, I mean, kind of an executioner. If a movie is found to be not a good movie, we toss it out.

03:10
Ryan
And then tales from the Double R, which is a Twin Peaks podcast where we cover every month a new episode or not new. They're all old. But it's new for us because we're just starting.

03:22
Case Aiken
Right? Yeah. So thank you again for coming on now. So you actually suggested today's topic.

03:27
Ryan
Yes, I did.

03:28
Case Aiken
In that regard, what's your association with this movie? I mean, obviously, we're talking about Superman Doomsday, which is obviously inspired by the comic the death of Superman, which we haven't talked about yet on the show. Spoiler we're going too soon. But you brought this. And what's your relationship with it? I hadn't seen it beforehand, I think. J Mike, you hadn't seen it beforehand, right?

03:50
Jmike
Yes.

03:51
Case Aiken
Yeah. So, like, Ryan. Ryan, you're the only one coming in with, like, jaded eyes.

03:56
Ryan
Yeah. I mean, I initially proposed Superman, the animated series, but you guys already did that. So I was like, okay, well, what's close enough to that I can at least share some thoughts on? And then I realized, oh, of course. Well, Superman Doomsday, which it actually bothers to use the tim verse aesthetic to an extent.

04:17
Case Aiken
So I have some thoughts about that. We'll get into it.

04:20
Ryan
But I mean, like, I bought this dvd first day. Like, this was a big deal because the Justice League unlimited had just ended, so they were doing feature length cartoons with some of the people who did those cartoons. And I was whole hog on board loved it at the time. And then I rewatched it on HBO Max, and I'm like, oh, well, the things I like about it, I still like. But all the other stuff, not so much.

04:50
Case Aiken
I can definitely see areas to be negative about it. I will admit. Before we go too far on this one, my most recent foray into a pseudo diny Superman animated thing was I recently realized I. Oh, I just. I've never watched Superman brainiac attacks. And, oh, yeah, looking back on it, I'm like, oh, this is one of the few things of Superman where I'm like, I wish I hadn't because it's bad. I'm shocked. And so that juxtaposition right there of, like, well, I saw, like, two months ago, this pseudo diny thing. That was awful. And then I saw this one, which was, you know, b minus, c plus, maybe somewhere in that range. Like, man, there's so many thoughts, because there's certainly a lot to vent about. The voice cast is fine, but almost all of them are like, it could have been anyone.

05:43
Case Aiken
It could have been the Dini cast. It could have been whatever. I don't feel like any of the stunt casting really brought anything to this whole piece. There's a lot to like with how they handled some things, like doomsday and whatnot, but it's a very. That part of the story is over very quick, and then you're into a totally different thing. You're doing a worse version of the, I think, the episode's identity crisis, the bizarro episode of the animated series, just out of nowhere. And there's a lot of conclusions or ins justify the memes kind of scenes that go on in this whole thing that I kept on being like, wait. No, no. But I will say this. I enjoyed doing a clone Superman story and having that clone.

06:27
Case Aiken
Not like there's a part of me where I'm like, it should have just been bizarro, but there's also part of me being like, oh, but, like, the. You know, we're actually just doing a straightforward, like, no, they got the clone right part. And like, oh, but he doesn't have the right upbringing. You know, he doesn't have, like, the sociological factors, but he's still innately, you know, like, a perfectly functioning kryptonian clone. There's a lot of comparisons I make, and, like, frankly, I compare this to, obviously, the bizarro episode of the Superman animated series, but I also complain it.

06:54
Case Aiken
Or compare it to theolog from the Gargoyles cartoon, where I feel like that's kind of the same thing they're going for, where it's like, here's a program clone of our main protagonist who happens to be physically a thing that no one else can beat in a fight. Okay, cool. Done by our billionaire, evil mad scientist character. Okay, cool. And I feel like this doesn't go far enough in a lot of those areas, but, you know, it could be a lot worse.

07:18
Jmike
They tried again later on. It was like, this came out, like, 2008, I think, but 2017. Yeah. So they tried it again. Was, like, 2012 with, like, the two part. Was it okay, I got my days, my years mixed up. But, yeah, they try it again, and.

07:31
Case Aiken
Like, I get some of the reasons that they're different are like things like the Superboy license kerfuffle that happened in the mid two thousands. J Mike, you remember we talked about this when we talked about the Legion of superheroes animated cartoon where they couldn't, you know, they couldn't call him Superboy. He had to be the young Superman. So, like, this is an area of time that we're familiar with. Like, they were trying to distance themselves from a lot of those properties. I don't know. Like, let's talk about the thing that. I think it was like, fine, but it happened so early in the movie. That's sort of like, well, whatever. The doomsday fight, like, super early.

08:02
Jmike
He's like the first seven minutes.

08:06
Case Aiken
Like, he shows up. The fight itself is fine with a couple notes in there, but like, was overall fine, but it doesn't, it's the name of the movie, but it's like barely the thing that you care about in this movie.

08:16
Ryan
Well, they've never been good at making doomsday an actual character. When they literally came up with the character was, oh, we'll say that it's doomsday for Superman. And then somebody in the room was like, hey, I got an idea. What if the thing that kills him is called Doomsday?

08:34
Case Aiken
Yeah, like, the comic, I think, has some things going for it that are artistic elements that cannot be conveyed in any other format. Such as every issue, the number of panels per page getting less and less until the final issue of the fight is just all splash pages in. Like the Walt Simonson Thor versus the Midgard serpent style. And like that. You know, it's cool that they did that. Like, I enjoy that they're trying to play with the medium, but Doomsday is boring. He's just, he's tough and mean and that's it.

09:06
Ryan
And here's all his dialogue.

09:09
Case Aiken
Yeah, well, in the comics, every now and then it'll be like Metropolis.

09:14
Jmike
Yeah, cuz like later on, like, he actually speaks a lot. And like the animated iterations of, like, was it Justice League show?

09:22
Case Aiken
Yeah, just limited, unlimited.

09:24
Jmike
Yeah.

09:25
Ryan
In Smallville, though, they made him a human, but then transforms into doomsday, which I do. I didn't actually see it. Yeah, he's a paramedic called Jason Bloom or Davis Bloom. And then they reveal, like halfway through the season, oh, he's actually doomsday. And okay, you know, fine. If you want to work that character in, that's fine.

09:47
Case Aiken
Yeah, Doomsday's hard to make feel like a diegetic part of the universe. He feels like a plot device whenever he shows up. And, yeah, like, the origin that they came up with in the comic is the most ridiculous thing you could possibly imagine, especially how it ties into Superman, where it's like, oh, we're gonna just murder a baby. Clone it, murder it again. Clone it. And that's gonna, like, do evolution somehow. And it happens to be on Krypton, which is why he particularly doesn't like Superman.

10:15
Ryan
That makes more sense, I suppose.

10:18
Case Aiken
I mean, I thought they handled that part well enough here, which is that we don't talk about it here. It's just, oh, this was a weapon of war that they couldn't figure out how to turn off and, like, things. Like, he had, like, a robot vision. I liked. I thought that was, like, a cool element where it's just, like, I mean, it's trodden ground of, like, oh, yeah, we created a weapon, and we can't figure out the off switch. Like, I feel like there's so many eighties Sci-Fi movies, like, that were, like, knockoffs of the Terminator, but it was, you know, like, the robot went out of control, and, like, I feel like that's, like, all over the place. And, like, this movie kind of is playing with that trope.

10:52
Case Aiken
But, you know, I actually think that at least is, like, slightly more logical of a reason for why doomsday would exist.

10:59
Ryan
Yeah, that's fair.

11:00
Jmike
You don't want to kill, like, a baby over and over about a billion times until he turns into this huge roll it out monster. You don't want that to be in your story, chase.

11:13
Case Aiken
Yeah, I mean, like, ultimately, this doomsday feels like the Shaggy man from DC Comics, you know, like the one that general eiling possessed, ultimately, where it's just like, yeah, it's a robot that literally, you can't kill it. It's just gonna keep on coming back, and it's gonna hurt people, and, you know, it's fine. But again, it, like, it takes up the, like, it's maybe the act, like the break into two, or it might be the halfway point in the movie when Doomsday is, like, just done and, like, that's it. That's not the movie. That's not the movie. You're here for Doomsday. And then more days, days after that.

11:49
Ryan
Doomsday and other stuff. That's what it should be called. Yeah, doomsday kinda question mark.

12:00
Case Aiken
But I mean, like I said, I actually, I thought the fight itself was fine with a couple of spots. Like, there. There's a lot of spots in this movie where Superman doesn't care about collateral damage in ways that I'm like, wait, no, stop. Like, don't. Don't do this.

12:14
Jmike
Like, you mean how he, like, literally launched him in the space and then brought him back down in the middle of the city without going to, like, the ocean or the desert?

12:23
Case Aiken
Yeah. Or when, like, doomsday is hanging onto the helicopter that Jimmy and Lois are on and he, like, flings doomsday into a building. And I think they, like, try to, like, I saw a note that they, like, tried to reshoot it so it didn't show people in the building, but it doesn't matter. Like, doomsday into a building in the middle of a city, even if it was evacuated, people died because there would just be, like, shit everywhere. And even if no one died, all of their things were destroyed, which is also kind of terrible. And that's assuming that the building was evacuated in the first place and that the surrounding area was evacuated. Most likely a lot of people just died.

13:00
Ryan
And a lot of photo albums get messed up, and that's just not right.

13:03
Case Aiken
Right.

13:04
Ryan
Have some respect for photo albums, people.

13:07
Case Aiken
And I'm not saying that we. Every single time that there's, like, collateral damage, we have to talk about how, like, he tried to avoid it or something like that, but, like, kind of. He should at least not be making it worse. You know? I think that's the line that, like, people have with, like, stuff like Men of Steel or man of Steel. Pardon me. I do that all the time. Why did I name the show a plural of a popular movie and comic book series? Multiple comic book series. But, like, the idea that he just wouldn't care about, like, all these people around him and not be. And not be aware of them is, I think, a frustrating point. And the fight has a lot of collateral damage, and it doesn't feel like Superman has to have that damage. Be there.

13:43
Case Aiken
Like, there feels like a lot of points where the fight is as, like, unstrategic as possible, and it's just like this brawler kind of fight. And then Superman's like. Like, Superman doesn't come off very good in this movie.

13:57
Jmike
No, no, he does not. Like you said, he actively contributes to everything going on. Especially, like, I forget what scene that was where it was. I think it was a subway scene. He just kind of, like, stands there. It's like, oh, the subway coming. And they get pimp slapped through the. Through the concrete again. But he does save a little girl. And that's what matters. The one little girl who comes crying out into the middle of the street for some reason. He's like, oh, God, no.

14:26
Case Aiken
Gotta kill her. Gotta protect her.

14:29
Ryan
I'm already responsible for so many children's deaths. I gotta. I gotta un.

14:33
Jmike
We gotta save at least one.

14:35
Case Aiken
I mean, everyone. It's a balance. Like, if you say if you save 50 and are responsible for fifty's death, like, that's a zero, right?

14:42
Ryan
You know, as. As Spock said, the needs of the many are to be killed for the one.

14:48
Case Aiken
Right? But, like, that fight itself, like, the actual fight choreography, I thought was, like, mostly fine. Like I said, I enjoyed that doomsday was presented as more of this unknowable alien weapon kind of idea.

15:00
Ryan
Yeah. And I like that he thoroughly hands Superman's ass to him. He actually coughs up blood, which I think is the first time that had actually happened in animated DC property.

15:12
Case Aiken
Yeah. Or at the very least, the amount of blood, like, the amount of wounds and stuff. Like. Like, it was. It felt like a brutal fight. Like, that part, I thought was all. I was there for all of that. And I. And I knew that this wasn't doing that, like, the reign of Superman stuff or the reign of the Superman stuff. So I was like, all right, so where's this gonna go? Because this is, like, 20 minutes in. And then they kind of did. They, like, filed off the serial numbers and did, like, a story that's, like, kind of similar, but, like, it felt like fullmetal Alchemist versus. What is it? Fullmetal Alchemist brotherhood. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like, where it's like, no, this is the actual ending versus. This is the one the anime came up with.

15:51
Jmike
I kept trying to remember why I remember this movie so much. And I was like, there is it. I remember seeing this and I was like, oh, wait, now I remember when he goes to salon and lasers, a little bee out of his brain. I was like, this is why that movie stuck with me. Because I was like, what the hell is this?

16:06
Case Aiken
Yeah, yeah. So rather than doing four Superman and we don't know which one, they just do a clone. They do a single clone, and it's not a bizarro. It's not. I was wondering if it was gonna be cyborg like. I was like, well, maybe they're not doing all of it, but they're still doing the Cyborg Superman, which, fuck, they could have still. Like, it's not too far afield from it, but no, it's actually just a straightforward clone. Who wants to be good, doesn't know how properly has been programmed with some really fucked up shit. And then that becomes the actual plot of the movie where it's like the superman who doesn't have these human touchstones getting worse.

16:42
Ryan
You could make the argument that he's a baby. He literally. He could go either way, depending on that. That's where the real story lies.

16:49
Case Aiken
Yeah, right. And that's actually gets to the biggest complaint I have in this because I think that overall, I think that the animation's pretty good. I think the art style is far enough from the Dini style that it wasn't as distra, for me, at least. It wasn't as distracting as, like, brainiac attacks where it's all the Dini style but all the voices are wrong and the animation doesn't look as good, but it still has all the style of it. Like, this was better and the stunt casting was all fine, I think.

17:15
Ryan
But Dana Delaney is not a fair trade.

17:18
Case Aiken
It's not a fair trade because she was like, capital a acting. She was like, I'm going to prove that Lois Lane can be a dramatic character and that she didn't.

17:28
Jmike
Adam Baldwin for Superman wasn't a good fit either because he comes off as extremely monotone in a lot of those scenes.

17:34
Ryan
See, I like him in this. But then again, I was never a big Tim Daley fan. So, I mean, I'm prejudiced in that. But I mean, the one that. I mean, the Dana Delaney one feels insulting simply because Dana Delaney has always been a bigger actress than Anne Heche. Like, you know, has more credits, has more. Has more marquee value, but. And also because she's possibly the greatest lowest lane we've ever had in, like, in live action or animation.

18:05
Case Aiken
Yeah, like, full stop, greatest losing we've ever had. And, like, obviously, like, we're not dealing with anywhere near as strong any of the supporting cast. Like, just across the board. It's just not doing it as well as the animated series.

18:17
Ryan
I will die on that hill. I will stand by it.

18:20
Case Aiken
But getting to, like, my actual concern about this, it's that the end of the movie doesn't have, like, I feel like the movie had, like, such an obvious way to make it all fit together really well, which is just to have doomsday show up again for act three and instead Superman kills the clone. And that's presented as a good thing. And I'm like, no, wait. Because the clones of fucking baby, like you said, like, the clone morally comes off as being, like, still able to learn. And I don't feel like the clone has actually crossed a line that cannot come back from, like, it's certainly, like, it kills toy man. Like, it's certainly, like, grimmer than a Superman should be. But it felt like a character that still could learn to be good or at the very least, like, repent.

19:00
Case Aiken
You know, it didn't feel like if it didn't feel like a character who couldn't come back from the line it had crossed because the line it had crossed was one where it was, like, trying to do right and it fucked up. But the fact that it's just like, yeah, no, Superman kills him. And, like, I mean, Superman's first response when he actually, like, approaches the clone is to just shoot him with a gun. And there's way less, like, you know, there's no, like, trying to talk him down. There's no trying to, like, explain how to help people. You know, I like the idea of Superman having to, like, fight his, like, stronger clone self. It felt very much like Samus in Metroid fusion against the sa x. Like, you know, it's just like, oh, yeah, this is you at your prime against you now.

19:37
Case Aiken
Like, felt like a classic kind of story to do. But then it's just like, oh, yeah, the clone is dying. And, like, he's like, whispers protect them, indicating that he still actually has that same good motive that pushed him too far. Whatever his tragic flaw was is still there. But there's a reason why we like him, which is that he wanted to do good. And it's like, why did the writers not give them a common foe for him to give his life for? So that we could be sad that this clone gave his life to protect.

20:08
Jmike
Me, wanted to have bizarro.

20:12
Case Aiken
Well, I did, really, like, again, the identity crisis of episode of anime series is really good. It's a gut punch where he's, like, superman save Lois and he, like, gives himself, like, gives his life, you know, obviously comes back. But, like, he, like, in this, in the episode, like, appears to kill or to die to save everyone else. And I feel like that's what they should have done for this clone. Like, and the easy one is like, have doomsday come back for act three where they have to, like, team up and, like, the clone who we, you know, make, you know, fought Superman, like, keep that. But the clone, like, realizes, oh, fuck, I've been going too far. And, like I said, like, gives his life. And then, like, then you can have this, like, kind of sad moment at the end.

20:52
Case Aiken
But they don't have that. There's no. The movie constantly is being like, Superman's right and any other way is wrong. And they don't do the work to explain why.

21:01
Ryan
Yeah. They don't interrogate it.

21:03
Jmike
No.

21:03
Case Aiken
Yeah. And Superman does a lot of wrong in this movie. Like, I was shocked when they were like, oh, yeah, Superman and Mose are fucking, but she doesn't know for sure that he's Clark Kent.

21:16
Jmike
Yeah, I don't know how that happened.

21:17
Ryan
I think that she would have figured. I mean, yeah, I know. The whole glasses.

21:19
Case Aiken
She knows.

21:21
Ryan
But come on. She knows. Come on. She's getting busy with them. She knows.

21:26
Case Aiken
Like, it's not the point that, like, she doesn't guess it because she's smart. Like, they indicate that she's figured it out. But the fact that he's still like, nope, I can't tell. Like, if anyone figures out, like, who I am, they'll come for you. And I'm like, you're already having sex. They're gonna come for you regardless.

21:42
Ryan
It's more alluring to have sex with a stranger than it is to admit who you are.

21:46
Case Aiken
But it's just Superman as fuckboy in a way that I didn't know I was gonna be as mad about.

21:53
Ryan
See, I was on board because I love it when they reveal when cartoon characters are fucking. That's all. Like, Bambi. You know, that Bambi and Thumper were getting, oh, yeah.

22:04
Case Aiken
Well, I mean, spoiler for anyone who likes the cartoon primal. But season two, Fang finally gets it on, and you're like, yeah, fang, get it. But here, just like, I'm fine with him having sex, but the fact that he has to be like, no, I can't tell you who I am because that's going to endanger you, is like, that's bullshit. At this point, you've said me naked.

22:23
Ryan
But I won't tell you my identity.

22:25
Case Aiken
Exactly. I made a note where it's just like, the perpetual second act of superhero stuff is the perpetual second date of this. And they're on the third date at this point. They're banging. It should be like, oh, yeah, people are aware that they are a thing, but, like, it hasn't gone too far yet. And that's the lowest superman kind of flirtation prior to, you know, him eventually telling her who he is. You know, like, j Mike, as with your favorite character from Invincible Amber. Like, I feel like she should be mad for him not admitting who he is at this point.

22:58
Jmike
Why did you say that name? Case, you're bringing back all that rage. No, but Java was. I was confused because, like, when he's going off on. On his little. When Clark, quote, unquote, is going off on his. His assignment in Afghanistan, she's like, whatever. See you later, Clark. And then I was like, oh, so she doesn't know. But then, like, the next frame is them sleeping together. Like, oh, so she knows. But then, yeah, if it was a.

23:28
Case Aiken
Ruse, that would make sense. I have that note too.

23:31
Jmike
And I was like, wait, so she doesn't know, but she's still sleeping with him. But then she sews up at Martha's house later on in the movie, and I was like, so she figured it out. But at the very end, he puts on his glasses, and she's like, clark. And I'm like, wait, so did she know or did she not know? Or did she figure it out? Or she just pretending the entire time? And you said Amber, and I was like, how dare you?

23:59
Case Aiken
Yeah, I mean, like, Ryan, what do you feel about that relationship?

24:02
Ryan
I mean, it's complicated simply because I don't think that it's rendered particularly well. But I think that there is. There is definitely stuff you can do with that. Like, you know, look at Superman two. He brings Lois to the fortress of solitude, pops some champagne, gets busy with her, and then eventually she puts it all together. Oh, okay. And I wish that they had done something more along those. That way. Or just have her know from the very beginning.

24:34
Case Aiken
Yeah, because, like, I rather like the lois and ma Kent doing this, like, verbal repartee with each other. They're, like, trying to decode what each other knows at this point. Like, I think that was a good scene, but it just feels like the Lois relationship is too far along for her to still be in the dark for Superman specifically, because, like, I have a note. Like, it felt like the character Captain Dynamo from Dynamo five, which was, like, supposed to be Superman if he was a fuckboy and, like, goes around and has, like, women on the side all over the world. And, like, when he dies, his kids find out who he was and, like, all meet up with each other and they become a team of superheroes.

25:14
Case Aiken
Like, that for that setting works, but for Superman himself and, you know, like, the main property, it feels weird to be like, oh, yeah, well, he's just gonna, like, sleep with her, and she will never know his name.

25:24
Jmike
He's gonna kiss her and make her.

25:25
Ryan
Forget, hey, if you want a superpower, just give it to Superman. It doesn't matter if it makes sense. Give it to him and people can explain it away.

25:34
Case Aiken
Yeah, it's super pheromones. Yeah, that's the ticket.

25:38
Jmike
Also, I was. I was laughing because I was like, I think I've been. I've been scarred by all these movies that come out that came out recently, but I was half expecting Martha to turn to Martian Manehunter later on just.

25:52
Case Aiken
Because I was like, please, God, no.

25:58
Ryan
We didn't realize that this was co written by Zack Snyder, but now we know.

26:04
Case Aiken
I mean, it certainly feels like that.

26:05
Jmike
Yeah. Well, that was my only Zack Snyder joke for the day. See me next time.

26:13
Case Aiken
So I, like, I went into this pretty blind. Like, I knew it was doomsday, but that's all I actually knew about it. I, you know, I was aware that.

26:21
Ryan
It was about Doomsday.

26:22
Case Aiken
Right. Exactly. How would I figure that out? So I wasn't sure how they were going to adapt some stuff because I just knew, like, okay, yeah, that was the animated movie they made a couple years back. It's about Doomsday. It's the doomsday fight. Cool, let's see. And I knew it wasn't reign of the Superman and I. But I was, like, pretty blind to it all. So when mercy shows up, I was like, wait, because she's blonde in this? Is this Linda Danvers? Is this matrix? Is this the supergirl that was, like, loving Lex Luthor when Doomsday shows up in the comics? And I was curious about that, like, going in, I was like, wait, where is this whole thing? Okay, what is this relationship with mercy? And then Lex just murders mercy, which just doesn't feel right for mercy. Like, she's too valuable.

27:10
Jmike
That was really weird. I was like, oh, okay. I guess.

27:15
Ryan
And it's such an interesting relationship in the show. Yeah. Like, when she shows up, then you're like, okay, well, I like, she's got.

27:21
Case Aiken
This sort of, like, paternalistic kind of.

27:23
Ryan
Aspect, but then, yeah, she just, she gets shot in the head and that's it.

27:28
Case Aiken
Yeah. And I was just like. And it was so sudden. I mean, it was like they had been functioning kind of the way we expect them to be. You know, she's a little bit more of, like, an assistant rather than like, the bodyguard kind of character that mercy has always been. And then all of a sudden, he just shoots her in the kind of telegraphed line of being like, you've wrapped up all the loose sins. Yes, sir. Well, not the last one. That's you. And then he shoots her. But it's very sudden, and it's the same way the rest of the movie is where it's just like, oh, yeah. We got to the point very early on, and now all the characters that we care about are gone.

27:59
Case Aiken
Doomsday was the fight that were told that this movie was about wrapped up in the first third of the movie. Mercy, the character who is the confidant for Lex Luthor, killed off halfway through the movie. Each of these things that were like, oh, yeah, this is the thing that we're going to explore. Lex Luthor's morality as juxtaposed by this character who loves him, kind of respects him, treats him sort of like a father figure. All the things mercy is going for her in the weird sort of fucked up relationship she has with Lex, which is fucked up in a different way than, like, Harley and Joker, for example. But then she's just taken out, and we don't get to see any of that. Like, how she sees Lex change over the course of the movie because he just, like, removes her as a factor.

28:44
Ryan
Yeah. She could actually become an audience surrogate to an extent.

28:47
Case Aiken
Yeah. And so the best surrogate we get is, like, either Lois or, like, the Superman robot, which I hated the design for this robot. I was like, this is. It's not calyx enough, and it's not like a silver age style, just Superman, but a robot. It's somewhere in this halfway state. And I'm like, I hate it.

29:10
Ryan
See, I look at him as an audience surrogate because I am also secretly a robot.

29:15
Case Aiken
Yeah, but do you have the weird brimmed head that robot has?

29:19
Ryan
Look at me right now.

29:20
Case Aiken
See, that's true. Oh, sorry. The zoom background made you look like a normal human being. But now that you've put your hand there, I can see that. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah, see, I. Sorry. I see the large dome that. Sorry, that's my mistake.

29:32
Jmike
There was that creepy conversation he was having with the old lady, with the cat, and I thought the cat was gonna die. I can't be the only person who thought that because he's, like, stroking the cat and he's talking to the old lady, this really deep monotone voice about, oh, you know, if I have to stop and save you guys all the time, I'm not gonna get anything done. He just pauses and looks at it for a second right before the cops show up.

29:51
Ryan
It'd be great if they zoomed in and all you heard was, like, a chicken bone breaking and then, whoops, I didn't mean that's gonna come out, I swear.

30:03
Case Aiken
Well, and that's the thing, though. Like, that's where we, like, he doesn't cross some of those lines. The worst he does is really with toy man. He threatens, but he gives the cat back, ultimately. So there's all these spots where the clone is presented. Like, oh, yeah, it's Superman if he had no morals. It's Superman if he was this cold, clinical approach to being a hero. But, you know, they don't really take it in some of those ways. Like, he still has, like, moments where he's, like, language and so forth, where it's, like, kind of an indictment of, like, the Boy scout approach to Superman. But I don't feel that, like, we have a strong rebuttal.

30:35
Case Aiken
Like, when actual Superman, when Clark comes back, like, all he does is he shows up at, like, a weakened state with a gun and tries to kill him. And then there's a fight, and, like, the fight's fine, but, you know, again, like, because it's still a pg 13 movie and not something further. And they don't want to, like, do too much damage to the ip. The clone Superman doesn't go that far. And thus, it's not, you know, it's not the eradicator. Like, that's, like, clearly the idea that we're trying to, like, kind of model it after where it's a Superman who has no problem breaking the hands of people who he encounters who are, like, robbing a bank and stuff like that. Or the cyborg Superman, where it's all ruse.

31:13
Case Aiken
It does neither of those kind of approaches to, like, evil Superman pretending to be good, and instead it's just a baby, like we said before. And it could have been taught to do better and it could, you know, it could have been Superboy and they didn't have the rights to Superboy at the time, but it could have been just that.

31:28
Ryan
And what bugs me is that if you look at the subtitles, they identify him as dark Superman. Yeah, it's like, not really, like, dark Superman would have an upside down s, I guess, which just turns out to be an s, really.

31:43
Case Aiken
Right.

31:44
Ryan
Just with a point at the top. But, you know, as you said, like, you know, he's not that bad. Like, he's really not.

31:52
Case Aiken
Yeah. And I feel like that just makes it a less interesting conversation, or rather that they, it's, it could have been a more interesting conversation than they went with.

32:00
Ryan
Yeah, that's fair.

32:01
Case Aiken
But, I mean, like I said, I do come away from it being, like, generally happy that I watched this. Like, it's like, I'm glad to do a new take on a replacement Superman that is different than all the other ones that I've seen before. You know, it is different than the reign of the Superman ones, but it's just they don't have as interesting a conversation as they should have. And, like, it seems so obvious that, like, at the very least, they could have had him have a little bit of a redemption arc and then die because at the end of the movie, they couldn't have him be alive. You know, like, he's not that bad. He doesn't deserve to die by the hands of Superman. So what happens at the end of the movie? Is he just, like, Superman's apprentice?

32:42
Case Aiken
Like, is he just training at the Fortress of Solitude? Like, where do you go with this character? Like, oh, well, he's got to die because that's the status quo we have to get to. But the main character shows up and.

32:51
Ryan
Starts tapping his watch and going, 77 minutes, guys.

32:56
Jmike
Batman.

32:58
Case Aiken
Like, just. Just a cartoon version of Dan Didio just shows up. Yeah. So, like, it's. It's weird to have that conversation.

33:06
Ryan
Jay.

33:06
Case Aiken
Mike, you brought up the mirror scene, and I do really like that scene. That would have been a good spot if they wanted the character to be revealed to either be the cyborg Superman or a bizarro. Like, yeah. Where he, like, burns his face. Like, because we don't see the wound. Like, he's not, like, mangled in a weird way. Like, that could have been a good spot later.

33:22
Jmike
You see it later after it's healed and everything, but that's about it.

33:25
Case Aiken
Yeah. Like, that would have been a good spot for, like, him to mangle his face, cutting it out. And either he's this Frankenstein ish version of Bizarro where instead of it degrading, it's because he literally burned off chunks of his body and it's healing in weird ways. Or again, a spot where you reveal an endoskeleton and it's like, oh, well, now we're at the cyborg Superman design, but then we're not getting the end point where Superman, in his weakened form, is fighting just a representative of his living form. I don't know. Again, it feels like fine, but it's just, like, not as nuanced as I wish it was.

34:03
Jmike
You're so right. Because he's not inherently a bad superman and doesn't really stand out as a bad character. Yeah. I think in order to differentiate the two, you would have. Need to have him, like you said, burn his face off or have something to form him, to make him seem different than everyone else because everyone still accepted him as Superman. There was no, like, oh, no, it's not Superman. It's evil. No, it's just all, he's still Superman. He's just a little bit more scary. Maybe it was because he died or got the crap knocked out of him that he's a little different now. Maybe he has a concussion, but he's still Superman.

34:39
Case Aiken
Yeah. Or alternatively, if the clones had been used as more expendable, like if Lex had revealed to, like, kill the clones a couple of times, like, he press his remote switch to turn off the brain by way of a kryptonite explosion more than once, so that we could have had a big moment where the clone, having cut it out, is we get the scene, but have it be a rule of three, or at least a previous attempt where we can see how bad it would have been and then set up that Lex is monetized Superman, we see more of his plan. The idea that he's got Superman, he can kill him when he wants. He doesn't have to deal with him. However, this Superman is under his control. And then the clone breaking free could be represented as being like, oh, yeah?

35:25
Case Aiken
Well, this was your shitty plan. And it's gotten. Now it's gone out of control because this clone can't be controlled, like, build from there. But instead, the clone just immediately turns off the control devices and is too rushed. At that point, I would want to spend more time where Superman is dead for a while. And the world has sort of gotten used to Superman being under Lex Luthor's thumb. And unbeknownst to the world, he's actually constantly killing these clones and replacing them kind of thing.

35:54
Ryan
I'm glad you broke it up because my favorite aspect of this entire movie is Lex. Kind of like the psychosexual angle to his dilemma where he starts punching him with the kryptonite gloves. Why did you leave me?

36:09
Case Aiken
Yeah, that was good.

36:10
Ryan
It is so amazingly homoerotic that I am so in favor of where the greatest relationships between heroes and their ultimate nemeses is one of, like, bad romance. Like, the Joker is not really complete without Batman, and he knows he can't ever kill him or expose his identity because if he goes away, then who is he going to have to play with? And I think that by having Lex be so not remorseful, but just angry at Superman for having the gall to die.

36:44
Case Aiken
Yeah. And then with that red, like, that red solar, like, sex dungeon kind of thing, I would be way more into, like, exploring that and, like, I mean, like, James Marster as Lex Luthor I thought was perfectly fine. Like, I do. I wish it was Clancy Brown. Yes.

37:02
Jmike
Yes, we all do.

37:04
Case Aiken
I wish every role was Clancy Brown, except for the roles that are supposed to be not scary for me, but, like, yeah, Clancy Brown is just going to be Clancy Brown and one of the most amazing actors of our time. I will love him and everything. Be it SpongeBob, be it Highlander, be it Superman, be it earth two. That's a poll. But, you know, jazz bars I thought was fine. I like the. I thought the gauntlets looked really cool. Like, they look like infinity gauntlets, which was great. Can you imagine if it was all the different types of kryptonite?

37:34
Ryan
We got your blue, we got your white, we got your red.

37:37
Jmike
Pink.

37:40
Case Aiken
Come and get it. Yeah. And. Well, and then the last one could be gold, and he depowers the clone Superman and then kills it and then, like, moves on to the next one.

37:48
Jmike
You know?

37:49
Case Aiken
Like, that could have been kind of a fun idea of, like, all right. You know, like, if he ever. Every time that Superman came in the room, like, it always died, may have been interesting and, like, because then you're actually kind of working your way from the idea of killing the baby doomsday every time to this clone Superman's the one that actually is evolving and does it all. So you're kind of working your way around to Lex doing the same process that created Doomsday. Even if the doomsday of this movie is more of an artificial construct kind of thing rather than the hyper evolved, it would still be fun to sort of play with that idea of eventually. You can't just keep torturing things the same way, and eventually it won't play out the same way.

38:27
Case Aiken
Eventually something changes and it'll get out of control. But really, I just can't get over that. Doomsday doesn't come back for act three. That just seems like the logical way to bring the Superman clone down.

38:38
Jmike
Well, they filled it. They filled that time with the whole Jimmy subplot and.

38:44
Case Aiken
Oh, yeah, we haven't talked about that.

38:45
Jmike
Yeah.

38:46
Case Aiken
Like, wait. Yeah. Jimmy with, like, gold chains and.

38:49
Jmike
Yeah. Italian silk.

38:56
Ryan
Or he becomes Andrew Dice Clay. Yeah, that'd be great.

38:59
Case Aiken
Yeah. How do we miss talking about that part?

39:02
Jmike
Oh, man.

39:03
Case Aiken
Yeah, that's just. That's another one where they just don't really explore, like, some of the ideas that they're playing with. Like. Like, it feels like this movie should have had Superman die and then it should pick up, like, five years later, you know, and, like, Superman's been gone, but he. Or rather, he was gone for a while. He showed up again. It's been weird. He's been very distant, but he's still being Superman. And he doesn't talk to Lois anymore for some reason. And Jimmy is now, like, you know, like a fame horror or something to that effect. But I feel like a time gap would have been helpful there because he's not gone that long, and then he just sort of is back.

39:35
Case Aiken
But, like, they need to keep moving people into new positions, so they do, even though it's like, that's a lot of change for someone who just started a new job.

39:43
Jmike
But he does, like, it picks right back up with the whole. We mentioned earlier, the whole Lois and Martha subplot. And then I was. I was kind of hoping we get more than one Superman robot. I'm kind of mad that was just that one. Because usually, like, the animated series, it's, like a hundred of them working around the fortress of solitude. And I feel like. I feel like they did that with the other one too. But, yeah, I was hoping for more than one.

40:07
Case Aiken
Yeah, a lot of robots would be fun, but, yeah, it's just, like, one robot, and that's, like, kind of SpongeBob.

40:12
Jmike
Which is really weird.

40:15
Case Aiken
Yeah, we get SpongeBob, but we don't get Mister Krabs.

40:19
Ryan
Hey, one's more affordable, man. What do you want me to say?

40:23
Case Aiken
Yeah, again, like, you know, again, I'm comparing it with, like, brainiac attacks in my head because, like, that one, like, the Dini style is even closer, and it hurts more. The voices are more egregious. Like, they don't fit that well. And the styles are weird. This one, everything's, like, a little bit closer to being right. Like, the fact that Lois and Superman don't know each other's real well. Or rather, Superman knows everything but won't admit his real name to Lois, and yet they're still in, like, clearly a sexual relationship is, like, kind of fucked up. And remember, he never lies, so if.

40:53
Ryan
He doesn't say anything about it, then it's technically not a lie.

40:57
Case Aiken
My true name is Kal El.

41:00
Ryan
Oh, you wanted to know my human name? I don't have a human name because I'm not human.

41:06
Case Aiken
Right.

41:08
Ryan
I'm from outer space.

41:12
Case Aiken
It's funny because, like, again, I walked away from it being, like, mostly positive, but, like, I do have just, like, a lot of complaints. It's just like, yeah, it was mostly fine. Fight and, like, I wish Superman cared more about collateral damage and people getting hurt. And then he just murdered. He just murders his, like, clone brother thing for no reason.

41:28
Ryan
And don't forget the Kevin Smith cameo, trashing giant robotic spiders.

41:33
Case Aiken
That is true. That was pretty blatant in there. But, you know, like, I do. Sure, give him the work. He's a big nerd. It's fun.

41:42
Jmike
A minor complaint with Lois in, like, the last act, the last fight scene, where she's, like, standing in the middle of all the debris are explosions and nothing's happened to her. And, like, all the. All the buildings and things are exploding, the glasses falling from the sky, and she gets, like, a cut in her cheek, but she's, like, standing there and nothing is happening to her. The world is dying around.

42:02
Case Aiken
Really dramatic shot.

42:03
Jmike
Yeah. And she's just standing there looking up, like it's not a problem for her. I was like, get out of there. What are you doing? Run, you fool.

42:12
Case Aiken
Yeah, but I don't know. I'm like, I feel like I'm now, like, kind of, like, spinning. Like, I have a lot of notes of being, like, this. This. This part would have been better. This part would have been better. But, like, again, it keeps on being, like, this movie is, like, almost there, but, like, doesn't nail it. And, like, kind of, like I said, it keeps on feeling, like. Like a c. Yeah.

42:29
Ryan
I mean, and you got to realize, like, I mean, this was their first real animated movie for dvd, like, not counting, like, sub zero, which is clearly what that's trying to go for. But this is them trying to say, well, how can we continue these characters after our tv shows? And so there's going to be some growing pains. There's going to be a bunch of stuff that doesn't work, and there's going to be at least some stuff that works. And what they get right, I think they get pretty right. But the problem is, what they don't get right is so glaring that it can overshadow what they do get right.

43:03
Case Aiken
Yeah. Ryan, I'm curious. What would you say is, like, your favorite part of this? You know, we've cited. We've cited things that they get right, but, like, what is the thing that they get the most right?

43:11
Ryan
The Lex stuff and the whole, why did you leave me? That's the main thing that stuck in my mind after, like, I didn't rewatch it even after buying the DVD. So this has literally been 15 years. And I remember that thing clear as day, and I was so happy when it happened again. Because I was just telling myself, okay, you weren't wrong. That did happen.

43:35
Case Aiken
Yeah, I agree. Like, that was really strong stuff. Like, the, again, the red sun sex dungeon was great, but, and, like, the opening monologue when he's, like, explaining how, like, superman's kind of in his way, like, I thought those were good moments for the character. Lex was done well. Like, I feel it's weird that he kills mercy. Like, I feel like that doesn't feel like Lex right there, but it, like, the vibe of the character, I thought was pretty good, and it wasn't distracting to not be Clancy brown. Like it would. I wish it was Clancy Brown, but I think that the designs, you know, a little. He's, like, a little bit slighter. He's, you know, all in a white business suit. He's leaner. He's got, like, a little bit more of, like, a wrinkle design to him.

44:12
Case Aiken
So I think that's, like, the strongest point. I think that Adam Baldwin was gonna come off as a prick just in general, because he often does. And as a superman, he came off as a prick as clone Superman really well. I don't think he came off as, like, a big counterpoint as real superman as well. Anne Heche, just, like I said, was just capital a acting as Lois. I don't know. Toy man, I liked, I did dig that sort of design for the character. It felt, it felt kind of like the version that, like, murdered Kat Grant's son in the comics. You know, like, it like a. More of a creeper.

44:50
Jmike
Yeah.

44:50
Case Aiken
Riding around a giant toys.

44:52
Ryan
Just that weird toy face. I think that if you're not gonna do that per se, to keep up the menace was a wise decision.

45:00
Case Aiken
Yeah. And, like, he felt, like toxic fanboysm. Yeah, like, as a villain. And I'm like, all right, I'm here for that. Yeah, but that's, I don't have a lot else to say. I mean, Jamec, do you have anything else that, like, really struck you that we haven't talked about?

45:12
Jmike
No, not really. I was just kind of, although the fight was fine. The fight scenes and things were fine. It was really short and very anticlimactic. Like, I mean, like, you know, like the Superman doomsday mythos. You expect him to, like, fight to, like, the bitter end and, like, them beating the crap out of each other. You got a little bit of that. But then he, like, takes up to the air and, like, throws them the ground. They both pass out. I was like, oh, all right. I guess that was fine. But, like, other than that, like, I just, I don't know. The voice actor for Superman just didn't do it for me. I just couldn't get over that point. I was like, oh, he's okay, I guess.

45:51
Jmike
But he just seems very uncharismatic to me for a Superman character because we're used to, like, Yuri and like, all the other guys, and they're very happy and charismatic. He didn't feel like that to me.

46:03
Case Aiken
Well, empathetic. They feel like they care about the people they're around. The Superman doesn't quite, it feels like even the version that is, like, normal Superman, like, this is a job that he's doing, and he's, like, kind of begrudged that he's doing this job.

46:15
Jmike
Say, for instance, like, the scene where Superman flies in and he's talking to, they're both talking to each other right in the middle of the air, and he's like, what are you doing? Well, we don't need you, but I'm back. Great. We still don't need you, but, and that's how that conversation went. It was kind of very, eh, yeah.

46:34
Case Aiken
Adam Baldwin is not the actor to have a conversation with Adam Baldwin. Like, it's not going to be that interesting and dynamic a conversation. The clone Superman, and Superman in general, kept on being, like, protect metropolis as opposed to the world. And I found it interesting where it was like, oh, yeah, I guess the clone could just protect Metropolis and Superman could move on to protect bigger and better things. But, oh, they're just going to fight. Okay. They're just going to fight. J Mike, you brought up a good point, though, about doomsday in the fight. One thing I really liked was the speed of doomsday. There were several spots where Superman was not able to catch his breath before he was under attack again. And I thought that was a really cool element that doesn't get shown enough.

47:13
Jmike
Like that because, like, you don't want to see, like, the typical, like, DBZ fight where everyone, like, stands back and gives each other a chance to, like, catch their breath for, like, five episodes.

47:22
Case Aiken
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, like, because that was the thing about the, in the comics, like, when doomsday shows up, everyone's like, he's so fast. How do you deal with that? Because he's moving at the same speed as, like, Superman, which means, like, just under the flashes speed. And it felt weird when we see him, like, not just destroy, like, normal humans because he's supposed to be that fast. Like, he's breaking the speed of sound with every punch.

47:43
Jmike
Yeah, I do appreciate that, because, like you said, like, he doesn't give Superman a chance. Like, actually catch his breath. And when Superman counter tries to counterattack, it's always, like, a backhand or an elbow from doomsday to knock him back off his feet again. So I was like, that. That's a pretty good. That's a pretty good thing they did there.

47:59
Case Aiken
Yeah. Yeah. So, like, the doomsday fight itself was really good. And, like, the clone fight is well done. Like, the choreography is good for the clone fight. It's just. Why is it all. Why is this a fatal fight? It's staged.

48:11
Ryan
Well, I mean, that is 100% what it is. It's staged. Well, I don't know if it's worked out in terms of motivations and in terms of how it serves the plot, but in terms of just breaking out panels, it's not bad.

48:26
Case Aiken
Yeah. So, like I said, I'm happy I saw this. Ryan, thank you for suggesting this, because I don't know if I, like, there's such a backlog of material. Like, it was always on my list to watch, but it wasn't, like, going to get bumped to the top without something like, you know, a guest wanting to watch it on the show. So I do appreciate you.

48:42
Ryan
I'm sorry, and you're welcome.

48:47
Case Aiken
The thanks is the more important part. Like, it. I am glad I saw it. Like I said, it could better, but it was satisfying. I wasn't mad. Like, there are a lot of good spots to it, and it's just. It could have been better, but, like, you can see that it's just not. It. Like you said, it's just growing pains for the animated movies. Like, it sucks that we're. We're never gonna get a Superman movie that's, like, the mask of the Phantasm.

49:12
Ryan
Oh, yeah, that's. That's a good point. Yeah, that'd be great. But, yeah, that's clearly.

49:17
Case Aiken
That's. That's not in the cards, especially not now. But, like, it would have been amazing if they did, like, some sort of conclusion for the character, but right after.

49:24
Ryan
Superman, the animated series, it would have been great.

49:26
Jmike
Yeah. Yeah.

49:27
Ryan
That's the perfect time because that's when he's absent from movie theaters. So not only, like, you know, Max and the Phantasm is a theatrically released movie, you could do that again. There's no problem. But I guess they were more focused on Batman beyond at that point.

49:42
Case Aiken
Right. Or then ultimately going on to, like, Justice League and stuff. Like, yeah, it just. They just never had that attention. And, like, you know, we know that, like, Bruce Timm and Paul Dini and all those guys were just, like, not as into Superman as they were for Batman. And, like, you know, I love the animated series. I think it's, like, one of the high watermarks in terms of, like, Superman storytelling, but it. It never had the fan response the way that the Batman animated series did. Like, that's considered, like, one of the great classics of the nineties. And, like, Superman, the animated series is like a. Oh, yeah. That was also really good, too, for a lot of people. Yeah. And I think it's underrated in that regard, but I think that, like.

50:21
Case Aiken
But it's true that it's just not the go to when people talk about the peak of DC animation.

50:26
Ryan
Although. Mixes. Spitalik. Come on. He's the best.

50:29
Case Aiken
I know. Rest in peace, Gilbert Godfrey.

50:31
Jmike
Yeah.

50:32
Case Aiken
But, yeah, like I said, I don't really have that much else to say about this. So again, Ryan, thank you for bringing this. For everyone who is not familiar with you, give your plugs again.

50:41
Ryan
Sure. So coolness chronicles you can find on Twitter oolnesspodryan and the coolness chronicles on Instagram. One track mind. You can find it at one track mind pod on Twitter. And one that's the number one track mind podcast on Instagram. And then reels of justice isofjustice on Twitter and Instagram.

51:06
Case Aiken
Awesome. Everyone should go and check that out. Like I said, reels of justice I've been on, and it was a ton of fun, but all the stuff you're doing is very cool. Anyone who's, like, vaguely interested checks it out and follows on what you're doing because it was great having you on. It's great chatting with you.

51:21
Ryan
Oh, same here. Absolutely.

51:24
Case Aiken
J Mike, where can people find you? Follow you.

51:26
Jmike
Oh, gosh, you're gonna make me do this.

51:30
Case Aiken
We're almost at episode 100, man.

51:32
Jmike
I don't have anything good to say. You can also find me at Twitter 101. I post funny stories, memes whenever I get a chance to.

51:42
Case Aiken
As for me, you can find me on Twitter acen. You can find the podcast men of Steelpod. You can find stuff that we're working on. We're doing clips from the show now on our YouTube channel at the certain pov media YouTube channel. So check that out. I've also got the Superman analog videos that we've been doing, so those are a lot of fun. Check that out and then head on over to our discord server. You can come interact with us directly, get sneak peeks, just chat with us about all the topics that we've got going on for certain pov and, you know, you could check out some of those episodes over@certainpov.com dot there's tons of great shows that we've got going on.

52:16
Case Aiken
We just are in the fifth season right now for United States of women, which I'll plug because that's a fun one that I'm really glad came over to our network, which is every single season, the ladies, Jessica and Elizabeth, go through eight important but underappreciated, underrated women from each state in the union in the order that they joined the United States. So they started with Delaware. They've been working their way through. They're currently on Connecticut. By the time this episode drops, I think they may have moved on to season six. But either way, check that all out. It's a really fun history podcast. And then, you know, come and check out more episodes of this show.

52:54
Case Aiken
We've got, I think at this point we are almost in the closing stretch for episode 100, so we've got some big stuff planned for that, so definitely be checking that out. But, you know, we've just been having a great time talking about Superman content, so I hope you're here for that and for another 100 episodes after that. But until then, stay super man.

53:17
Jmike
Men of Steel is a certain pov production. Our hosts are J. Mike Folson and case Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm, our logo is by Chris Bautista, episode art is by case Akin, and our theme is by Jeff Moon.

53:41
Speaker 5
Are you tired of watching your beloved characters being tortured by careless authors? Are you sick of feeling like they could have swapped out all of the painful action and the plot would remain untouched? Subscribe to books that the fortnightly Book review podcast focusing on fictional depictions of trauma. We assume that the characters reactions are reasonable and focus on how badly or well they were served by their authors. Join us for our minor character spotlights, main character discussions, and favorite non traumatic things in the dark books we love. Find us on Spotify, iTunes, Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts.