Episode 97 - The Music Inspired by Superman with Matt Storm
Superman has been a cultural icon for almost as long as recorded music has been a thing, so it makes sense that lots of songs have been inspired by the Man of Steel! Matt Storm joins us again to talk about music inspired by Superman!
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Meeting summary:
● The meeting discussed various music inspired by Superman, analyzing songs in different genres and their cultural impact. Key points included the exploration of themes of hope and heroism, upcoming podcast episode plans, and action items for the hosts, such as finalizing song lists and coordinating with guests.
Notes:
● 🎵 Introduction and Purpose (00:01 - 01:03)
● Introduction of hosts and guest Matt Storm.
● Discussion on the purpose of the episode: exploring music inspired by Superman.
● 🎤 Superman-Inspired Songs (01:03 - 11:15)
● Discussion on various songs inspired by Superman, including 'Kryptonite' by Three Doors Down and 'Superman' by Goldfinger.
● Analysis of how these songs reference Superman and their cultural impact.
● 🎸 Pop Culture and Superman (11:15 - 20:30)
● Exploration of Superman references in pop culture songs like 'Superman' by Eminem and 'Superman' by Taylor Swift.
● Discussion on the portrayal of Superman in these songs and their thematic elements.
● 🎧 Rap and Superman (20:30 - 28:49)
● Analysis of rap songs referencing Superman, including 'Luthor' by Lex the Lexicon Artist and 'Superman' by T-Pain.
● Discussion on the portrayal of Superman in rap music and its cultural significance.
● 🎼 Superman in Various Genres (28:49 - 38:23)
● Discussion on Superman references in different music genres, including country and show tunes.
● Mention of songs like 'Man of Steel' by Hank Williams Jr. and 'Superboy and the Invisible Girl' from Next to Normal.
● 🎹 Themes of Hope and Heroism (38:24 - 50:41)
● Exploration of the themes of hope and heroism in Superman-inspired music.
● Discussion on how these themes are portrayed in various songs and their emotional impact.
● 🎬 Upcoming Episodes and Plans (50:41 - 59:19)
● Discussion on upcoming podcast episodes, including Superman Doomsday and the Superman musical.
● Mention of the preparation required for these episodes and coordination with guests.
● 🎙️ Closing Remarks and Additional Information (59:19 - 01:07:51)
● Closing remarks and summary of the episode.
● Additional information on where to find more content and follow the hosts.
00:00
Matt
All right.
00:00
Case
And we'll just kind of feel this one out.
00:04
Matt
Yeah, I'll try not to turn on the host hat too much. It's just I'm a music nerd, so.
00:09
Case
I mean, it's fine. I mean, that's why we have you here, Matt.
00:12
Matt
Yeah, I know.
00:12
Case
You are the music nerd to be here. This conversation. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the Men of Steel podcast. I'm case Aiken, and as always, I am joined by my co host, J. Mike Falsen.
00:44
Jmike
Welcome back, everybody. So glad to have you here.
00:47
Case
Yeah, we're gonna rock out today because we have a returning guest. We have Matt Storm.
00:52
Matt
Hey, what's going on? I'm back again.
00:53
Case
Happy to be here, aka DJ Stormageddon, for this conversation.
00:57
Matt
Yeah, yeah.
00:59
Case
Because we are continuing our conversation about music of Superman. And specifically today, we are talking about music that has been inspired by Superman, which there's a lot.
01:09
Jmike
Yeah, there is a lot more, as you think.
01:13
Matt
Yeah, it's funny, when I pitched this idea to case, this is what I was thinking of. And then case, of course, always like, well, we have to talk about the Superman themes, too, which, of course we do. But I've just been listening to pop music for a very long time, and across the gamut, there's always been songs about Superman, referencing Superman, his story, characters, and, like, it just kind of seemed inevitable to do something like this. Also, I did 250 episodes of music podcast, so, like, I'm kind of a nerd or whatever. It's fine.
01:39
Case
Like, yeah, well, like, when we started the show, we always knew that there were some songs that we wanted to talk about that we wouldn't have, like, a great framework for, you know, because, like, the idea was whenever we talk about a piece of Superman media, we would talk about themes at some point in it. And, like, that sometimes happens and sometimes doesn't. But, like, that was an idea when we started the show. It'd be like a thing for us to talk about whenever we talked about a new movie or animated series or whatever, but there are just. There's just pop culture tracks. Like, you know, when you. When you mentioned it was like. Yes, because, like, I've always wanted to talk about kryptonite by three doors down, which, you know, is a weird thing to say out loud.
02:17
Matt
Yeah, three doors down. A band that has not aged well, not because there's anything really particularly wrong with their music, but they just haven't done as much lately. They were sort of a one hit wonder with kryptonite. They had some other singles after that and kind. Kind of had a steady career as all bands in the two thousands. But, yeah, kryptonite is one of those songs that, like, if you are a fan of Superman or even if you are not, if you have a pulse and listen to music at some point in the two thousands. You know, this song, you know, it just kind of was ubiquitous with Superman at the time even though it has no official connection to Superman other than using proper nouns from. From the franchise.
02:54
Case
Yeah, it's funny because, like, that was my jumping on point for this conversation because it was like, okay, that one stands out to me. The. The title is a specific reference to a thing from Superman. In it, they caught. They say, will you still call me Superman? But there's not a lot in the actual, like, lyrics or the musical construction of the song. But then the music video has, like, a lot of, like, superhero iconography. I think either this came out at the same time that the movie mystery men came out or they. I forget if the music video actually had tie in stuff. No, it was a smash mouse, which was the official tie in for mystery men. So the all star one.
03:31
Case
But either way, it had the same kind of look to it where it was like, here's low budget superhero costumes in that oversaturated way that music videos from the nineties were really doing. Like, late nineties, early two thousands were really into it. And, I mean, that's also just kind of like our age. That was exactly where were on that one. So it stood out to me. And I was like, you know, we'll probably have some songs that are kind of like that where they have a couple of allusions to the character and that's about it. And, you know, like. Because the second song I went to in my head was Superman by Goldfinger which, as I put in the notes in the Google Docs, aka the song from Tony Hawk and Matt got mad. And I'm like, I have been to Goldfinger concerts.
04:16
Matt
I took personal offense to it because, like, I know more than three songs by Goldfinger. And as a ska fan, I love their catalog. And so all of my friends. And look, I play video games too, obviously. But, like, everyone when that song was on Tony Hawk. Oh, that song from Tony Hawk. It has a name. It's in the chorus. Come on, it's not that hard. Goldfinger. Also. Not a tough band name to remember. But, yeah, no, this song, I just. I remember, like, my high school era, this being one of those songs, like, just. It was everywhere. I listened to it all the time. I, of course, I, too, though, badly played a lot of Tony Hawk and always loved hearing the song and the rotation. But this one also, like, it's very much like, I'll be your Superman.
04:58
Matt
Like, it's not a direct reference to the comics. It's kind of just the idea of the Superman, not this Superman.
05:06
Case
Yeah. And that's actually what I wanted to kind of get to in my general thought about what I expected when I was going into songs that were, like, Superman inspired. Like, I thought it was going to be like this, where the names in there. It's a fun song. I like the song a lot. There is nothing to do with Superman in it besides, like, the concept of a Superman. You know? Like, it's the thing we've talked about a bit where Superman started off more as, like, an idea or a title than as, like, a name for a person. That this idea of, like, a superman, like, saying, like, only a Superman could have saved those people. Only, like, only a Superman could have endured that.
05:45
Case
The idea of, oh, it is humanity taken to this extreme and with the additional heroic qualities laid on top of it, because you assume that in addition to a superior physicality, you assume a superior morality to them as just this broader concept. It's the knight in shining armor idea. And I figured that a lot of songs were going to be like that because the next one that came to my mind was Superman by Eminem, which has nothing to do with Superman besides being like, oh, no, I can, like, I have the endurance of a Superman in the sack, which is, you know, not. Not the idea.
06:23
Matt
No, that's a song that I like, I hadn't listened to in a long time. And I loved Eminem when he first came out. Like, I was a big fan of the first couple records, like, everyone was at the time. But, like, as I learned more about the kind of person he was, how misogynistic he was, and racist and homophobic and all of that stuff. And no, playing one performance with Elton John doesn't magically make him not homophobic. It doesn't work that way. Like, I relisten to that song just now because I remembered the chorus. Like, it's got that kind of rhythmic chorus that feels very sexual. And so, like, I remember that is burned in my brain, but, like, re listening, it's just like, it's the, like, the misogynistic, almost, like, idea of a Superman.
06:59
Matt
Only a man can please you, and I'm the best kind of man. Kind of bravado. Which has its place to a level. But, like, just knowing what I know about him as well and listening to it, like, it's very much Superman equals super sexy, which, as we've all talked about on the show at some point or another, like, there are plenty of very sexy supermen. But this is not what I'm thinking of when I think of that. Like, this is just very much, like, I can please you. You know, he was newly single at the time and all of that stuff. Like, it's just. It's kind of a gross song. It's why I actually thought it was so important to put the Superman song by Taylor Swift on, because that's just kind of like rainbows and bubblegum and gumdrops. It's like a very butterflies.
07:38
Matt
Yeah, it's very saccharine sweet. It's very much like I let the Superman go, like, talking about. And this one actually does have some character references in it very loosely, not specifically calling out DC stuff. But this is the kind of thing that I like just because this feels very honest and emotional and sweet, which is a lot of things that are often in Superman comics. Superman is not misogynistic and obsessed with sex and obsessed with women. So, like, I prefer this kind of Superman love song to the Eminem thing, which is why I thought it was important to place that in our list as well.
08:11
Case
Yeah. On a similar note, when were. So when I was trying to figure out our list, because initially, I threw in, like, I threw in the Eminem song, I threw in Goldfinger, and I threw in kryptonite. And that was my initial list that I put on the Google Doc, and I was like, please, everyone add to this. And then none of us did anything for, like, two months. So I found a list on the AV club, though, that. That cited a bunch of songs that were inspired by Superman. And a lot of them are of the type that we're talking about where Superman is a concept, you know, is a term that people bring up. It is a colloquialism that we use to describe, like, an impressive person in whatever way we mean. So, like, a thing like Barbra Streisand's song Superman, which.
08:53
Case
The COVID to the single is her wearing a Superman shirt. And, like, the opening lyric is that she feels like she can fly when she's with you, the superman. But it's. It's entirely a metaphor. It's. It's just talking about the feelings that the character, that the singer is going through. But there's no actual, like, superman stuff in there, and I kind of assumed that was going to be a lot of it. And then I actually looked at the lyrics for some of these other songs that we have on the list, and that is not the case.
09:21
Matt
Yeah, for sure. Before we move away from the stuff that's kind of just referencing, I did put a song on here that I knew I would get the exact reaction out of case that I did. So the song Superman by Laszlo Bain, which most people would know as the scrubs theme, like, I actually accidentally discovered Lazlo Bain before I ever watched scrubs. It was very close, but, like, and Scrubs is one of my favorite tv shows. Sometime, if you ever meet me in person after listening to this, ask me about my Donald Faison Zach braff story. It's good, and it's awfully embarrassing for me, but it's a good story. I won't get into it now. I do. But, like, this song is very much referential. Like, it's about someone wishing they could be like, I'm no Superman. Like, I can't be this super person.
10:06
Matt
And, like, the show scrubs dealt with a lot of superhero complexes. I mean, think about Doctor Cox as a character very much like Superman. Like, very intimidating, but powerful on the outside, but wants to help, but, like, is actually, you know, hurting on the inside and struggling with. Superman, of course, does in his later years, especially. Like, I love that kind of dichotomy with that song specifically. And also, it's just a catchy tune. Like, beyond just what's played in scrubs. It's actually just a fun little. Kind of, like, plucky. Yeah, yeah.
10:36
Case
I couldn't remember the name of the artist when I was thinking about songs, but I knew the scrubs theme song was called Superman because that's the. The big lyric at the end. Yeah, but that was a nice one. Just because it's. It was theme song for a really popular show and had, you know, I think does a really good job of conveying the sort of burden that we talk about with the character.
10:56
Matt
Yeah.
10:56
Case
So I'm really glad that was brought up just because it's like, yeah, that was a, like, scrubs back in the day was, like, a show that was such a great, like, entry point for, like, a lot of music. Like, I mean, I guess tv in general, in the early two thousands, there were just a lot of shows that were like, yeah, we're gonna have a good soundtrack. And, like, that'll be a thing for, like, marketing. Like, yep. You know, pre, like, pre itunes domination of music. Like Napster existed, the Internet existed, but like the Internet hadn't taken over the music industry yet. Like, you've got like Scrubs, you've got like the OC. Even Smallville.
11:31
Jmike
Yeah, Smallville. At the end of every episode there was like a little ballad they play.
11:36
Case
For a second and things before that, like Dawson's Creek, you know, like, I think teen shows in general had gotten really good about licensing up and coming songs and like doing a really good job with it. It's now becoming an issue with streaming where they can't get the rights to those songs anymore.
11:49
Matt
Watching scrubs on streaming has been horrible. I started rewatching scrubs because the aforementioned Zach Braffen Dollafez on during the pandemic started a Scrubs rewatch podcast as the two leads of scrubs. And like, I didn't, I have some of the dvd's but I didn't know where they were. This was after my apartment fire, so I was displaced and so like, I just, everything was in boxes. So I started watching it on Hulu and streaming doesn't get the rights to all the songs. They have some, but others, they just filled in with other stuff. And like Bill Lawrence handpicked a lot of those tracks. The cast handpicked a lot of those tracks. So replacing them with anything just doesn't feel right. I also, before, yeah, it sucks. It just, it bums me out, especially considering I love the show so much.
12:29
Matt
But I do want to mention before we move off of Scrubs also that show also had, I think, more than one specific Superman references. Like there's definitely the classic, like Superman behind the glass window with light shining, showing a silhouette thing with Doctor Cox when JD refers to him as his hero. Like, they've definitely, like, the reason that song is so important to me to talk about here is because not just the song referenced Superman, but the show often referenced pop culture and specifically Superman as well.
12:59
Case
Before we move on completely from songs that honestly, the connection is tenuous at best. Yeah, I do want to mention this one because it was on the list and I laughed really hard when I read that it was on the list, which is Soulja Boy, crankback, soldier boy, his first single. So. Yeah, so it's on the av club list, which we will link in the description for this episode. And I. So for those who are not like going out in like 2006, this is a song. This was like a song of the summer for that. It was like 26 or I guess it was 2007 when it was the song of the summer. It was just a popular song because it has sort of a goofy dance that everyone kind of knows. And then in the song, there is the line Superman that hoe.
13:47
Case
And that's gross.
13:49
Matt
Yeah. It's not a classy song, but it's still, like, a really very much a fan favorite. I mean, more recently when I was playing fuser on Twitch, it's one of the songs in fuser. Like, it's just a popular club hit. And, like, oh, yeah, no.
14:07
Case
Like, the beats in there are great. Like, the dance, I actually still remember somehow.
14:11
Jmike
It's got a crazy hook.
14:12
Case
Yeah.
14:13
Matt
It's a well crafted pop song, which I know would, like the highbrow rap fans who, like, think, oh, rap can't be pop, which is bullshit. It is absolutely pop song. Like, it's a rap song, but it's absolutely a pop song because it hits all of those things. Like you were saying, j Mike. Like, it just. It's super catchy. You know, the hook, especially, like, rap songs can have catchy hooks. Absolutely. But that makes them very pop in their inspiration, for sure.
14:38
Jmike
I was all over the place in high school.
14:40
Matt
Yeah.
14:40
Jmike
I hated it so much after.
14:42
Matt
Yeah. I mean, how could you not?
14:43
Jmike
I was like, oh, can we choose another song, please? Come on.
14:48
Case
Like, for the record, the Superman. That ho is, like, you throw a sheet on a girl after you had sex with them and, like, see if the sheet makes them look like they're, like, flying like Superman.
14:56
Matt
It's.
14:57
Case
Like I said, it's gross. Like, it. It's a tenuous connection at best. There's more details to that one that I don't want to go into. It's all bad. But it is possible to do interesting rap songs that actually do tie into Superman. And Matt, you actually included one that I thought was a really good reference that wasn't on the list that were talking about, which was Luthor by Lex, the lexicon artist.
15:16
Matt
Yeah. So Lex, the lexicon artist. If you follow me on Twitter at all. I never shut up about Lex. I became friends with when she first started rapping, I don't even know how many years ago now with the pandemic, everything just feels like ten years longer, even though it's not. But we became fast friends, and she was a guest on autographs pretty early on and is just a really cool, awesome human. And when she put out her first full length record, one of the songs Luthor on it was this pounding, deep bass kind of bravado song. That you hear, especially in a lot of nerdcore rap songs. But it's from the perspective of Lex rapping as Lex Luthor. And, like, it's a funny plan on words because she's Lex the lexicon artist Lex Luthor.
15:57
Matt
But, like, it's very much this kind of, like, what Lex is thinking, how he's going to finally beat Superman. And it's just, not only is it a masterfully rapped and made song, but it's just. It's really cool to see this side of it from the villain perspective. I feel like that's more common now in pop music to see the villain's perspective. We have lots of tv shows and movies also featuring villains or anti heroes, but, like, pop music doesn't. Didn't always do that. And I feel like it's more common now. And this song was really important to me to bring up because it just. It's so cool. I'm a geek, and it's part of the nerdcore genre. And nerdcore primarily focuses on no alluding to, like, references. It is full on reference. Like, there's no innuendo. It's just endo.
16:39
Matt
And so, like, it's one of those things that, like, I just. I love the idea of this kind of, like, bravado route because I could picture. I could, even though I hear Lex's voice, I can picture Lex rapping this, which is really kind of cool.
16:51
Jmike
It'd be kind of cool to have a Lex Luthor Superman rap battle right in the middle of Metropolis, like eight Mile.
17:04
Matt
But, yeah, it's a really great song. If you haven't listened to Lex, the lexicon artist at all, I highly recommend it. She's done some amazing stuff. But, yeah, and I also, like, for me, I picture the clan. Cause we've talked about this. Like, if I picture Lex Luthor, I picture the Clancy Brown voiced animated series Lex Luthor. And I totally kind of want to make a fan rap video now of, like, kind of the mouth dubbing thing that people do. But with Lex from that cartoon, rapping the song, like, I think that would be fun. But, yeah, it's dope. And, like, this one is not. Like were talking a lot about, like, light references and kind of just at a name at best. This. No, in deep talking about kryptonite, talking about, you know, specific characters, specific motives. Like, it's really well done.
17:45
Case
Yeah. And that was a nice thing to, like, come across. Like, songs that were much more explicit, like, in this list. Some of them are just like, are way up there. Like the Jimmy Olsen blues, where it's like, yeah, okay. Yeah, that's gonna be more explicit there. There were a few. There was one. Matchbox 20, real world.
18:02
Matt
Yes.
18:02
Case
I was like, I'm kind of dubious about this. The first verse isn't anything related. And then the second verse is just, like, from krypton, like, as a super being, like, oh, yeah, no, that's pretty. Yeah, that's on the nose right there.
18:15
Matt
Yeah. I grew up listening to Matchbox 20. They're one of my favorite bands. And, like, yeah, Rob Thomas's lyrics are very much on the nose. And what's funny is, like, I never, like, I just didn't think musicians could be nerds when I was a kid. It's stupid, obviously, but, like, I just. So when I first heard the song on their first record, I was like, dude's talking about Superman. Cool, right? Like, it just didn't seem possible to me because this is way before a lot of the more explicit stuff or even things now, like, lizzo making incredibly nerdy references in her tracks and stuff like that. Like, that just wasn't common, I felt, when I was growing up. Not ubiquitously, anyway. And so, like, this a big alt rock pop band, to mention Superman. So specifically, I was like, this is cool.
18:55
Jmike
Nerd culture wasn't that big of a thing back then. No, it's so cool to see it. Like, it's blossoming and becoming what it is today. And all the movies and things that are out there now. We have so much stuff to, like, gush about now.
19:07
Matt
Yeah. Like, this is a slight. This is a slight tangent, but, like, we've come full circle. Like, the newest ninja Turtles game that came out has a rap song by RZA on it and has a rap song by Mega ran, one of the. One of arguably the most famous nercor rappers who made his career rapping over mega man beats and now made a Ninja Turtle song. Like, it's just. It's so cool to see it wrap back around where people are now being celebrated for being nerds and, like, the stuff they kind of had to do in secret or to small audiences, they can now do it. And, like, I. Obviously, the Wu Tang Clan is full of nerd references, but as a kid, I just never clicked. Like, I never realized that. But they're all gigantic nerds, the lot of them. Yeah.
19:46
Case
I want to stop and take a second to look at the lyrics. I didn't have a chance to listen to all these. I want to look at the lyrics for t pains, because t Pain is a giant nerd. Yeah.
19:55
Jmike
I did not know what that song was. And I listened to it and I.
19:57
Matt
Was like, oh, yeah. I mean, most people think of t Pain as a producer and, like, a hype man, but, like, he did some, like, some seriously cool rap songs back in the day. I don't know that I had heard this one before, but I listened to it when I saw on the list.
20:12
Jmike
I had never heard that song before. And I was like, t pain Superman. He did a Superman song. I was looking for, like, oh, it's a collab song. Oh.
20:22
Case
Yeah. So talking about, like, t pain Superman, which is with DJ khaled, it opens with, like, the. Doing a little bit of the John Williams score leading into it. And then you do get some lyrics in there. T pain, I know, is a giant nerd. Like, I know that t pain got his start as a musician by way of fixing people's computers. And someone gave him the software for auto tuning as a. As an exchange for him doing some work on a computer. And that's how he, like, learned how to, like, start making his own songs. Yeah. And I just, like, love that. Just this fucking nerd.
20:54
Matt
Yeah. I mean, during the pandemic, he was twitch streaming pretty regularly and, like, rating other people's, like, small twitch streamers, twitch pages and stuff. Like, he's gigantic nerd. It's really great.
21:04
Case
Yeah, yeah. And, like, I mean, it was on the epic rap battle.
21:07
Matt
Yep.
21:09
Case
Stevie Wonder versus Wonder Woman.
21:11
Matt
Yes. Which is very good.
21:13
Case
Yeah. So definitely, like, fun there. I mean, there's some of the whole, like, it's a rap song where it's just like, look how awesome of a superman I am kind of stuff going on in there. But, like, you know, there's. There's also some direct, like, again, it opens with the John Williams score. So.
21:25
Matt
Well, I'm like, I don't mind the bravado. Like I just said, the Lex Bravado stuff. The reason the Eminem Bravado stuff doesn't work is a, because he's outed as an incredibly shitty misogynist and, like, racist and homophobe. But also just. There are different levels, right? He's not his. There's nothing. There's no jokes in Eminem Superman. It's very much like, I'm gonna, like. It's just very much a sex song and about sex, and it's fine.
21:51
Case
But, like, it's weird because, like, eminem got. Became well known because of doing, like, kind of jokey or rap songs and.
21:56
Matt
Like, has dressed as Superman in his music videos and addressed as Batman and Robin with. With Doctor Dre in his videos, too. So, like, yeah, but he, like, always pushed back about Gansner culture and hated being called a nerd and all that stuff. I think. I mean, I assume some of that comes from the sensitivity of being one of the most famous white rappers, tons of white folks rap, but, like, he was, like, one of the most famous fast. And in a time where the ones who were doing it for a long time weren't as well known.
22:24
Case
And so I'm guessing in that era.
22:25
Matt
In that era, for sure, you know?
22:27
Case
Like, I'm sure he got, like, a lot of vanilla ice comparisons. Oh, yeah. And I say I'm sure because I'm like, wait, he, like, started as a rapper when, like, I was in junior high. Yeah. Was I even aware of some of those? But I. But I do remember people being like, well, you can't be a real rapper if you're white.
22:42
Matt
Right?
22:42
Case
It was, like, a conversation point, which.
22:44
Matt
I got also, because Lord knows white people have stolen enough music from other people. So, like, I get that, like, wanting to protect yourself and protect your music, but, like, you know, still, I just. I don't like. But this song, this. The t pain song feels playful. Feels more fun.
23:00
Jmike
Oh, it's very playful.
23:01
Case
Yeah.
23:01
Matt
Yeah. And that comes from, I think, knowing the source material, too, a little bit.
23:05
Case
Oh. While we. While were calling out people for shitty stuff, I do want to point out that three doors down played at the Trump inauguration.
23:10
Matt
Yeah. Oh, yeah. They're shitheels. They're terrible. Like, I don't.
23:15
Case
Yeah, no, I was real sad when I found that out.
23:17
Matt
Yeah.
23:18
Case
I was like, oh, no, turns out.
23:20
Matt
It turns out a lot of people suck. We learn more and more each day.
23:25
Case
Although it also shows that, like, how many rungs down the ladder of fame Trump had to go through in 2016, three doors down, as his inauguration banned.
23:34
Matt
Yep. Yep.
23:35
Case
Like, even in 2006, it would have been like, I feel like you're ten years too late.
23:38
Matt
Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.
23:43
Case
So, again, a lot of these I assumed were going to be kind of superficial, and then there are ones that actually were less so than I thought and also tied in other ways. Like, we've got Superman. It's not easy. By five for fighting.
23:55
Matt
Yep.
23:55
Case
Which I am, like, 99% certain was on the Smallville soundtrack. Yeah. Like, I cannot fathom a world where it wasn't. And if it. And if it wasn't, it's a shazam situation. Or, like, this is like, the sin bad shazam situation.
24:09
Matt
I believe the music video had Smallville. I thought it had Smallville clips in it, but maybe I missed.
24:17
Case
But the lyrics are actually, like, pretty good for it as well. And, like, that was sort of a nice part in there as well. It's funny how often I do see allusions to either a yellow sun or some, like, things like that. Sort of, like, setting up the characters pretty well. Yeah, this one has, like, a lot of, like, I'm more than a bird. I'm more than a plain lines in there. And, like, that's. That's cool. You know, like, again, Superman is a brand that is so big. And in our, like, in our conversation now, you know, when we talk about Superman, the purest form of the character isn't really the comics. It isn't really any one thing. It is the collective of all the things that have been out there.
24:54
Case
And so it's funny all the things that we've, like, come to associate with the character and, like, that just gets conveyed into these songs that want to allude to this, like, you know, this hopeful power fantasy.
25:04
Matt
Yeah, well, it's funny you mentioned the specific references. The reason I remember that Superman's powered by the yellow sun is because of the real world lyric. And kick that funky high on the yellow sun. Like, literally a lyric. And, like, never thought of it that way. But he's absolutely getting high in any respect that you look at. Like, I mean, it's a haha. He's flying the sun, but, like, also absolutely. He's absorbing the rays. It has a drug like effect on his body. It makes him powerful or feel powerful, for sure. Like, all of that kind of stuff. I think when it's on multiple levels. Also five for fighting the music video, at least the version I found does not have stuff from Smallville in it. But I believe there's a cut with the Smallville stuff. Like, I just. I feel like that exists.
25:43
Matt
It's just, well, it's like the Britney.
25:44
Case
Spears drive you crazy video. There's the original music video. And then when they made the movie that had that title, they, like, recut in footage from drive me crazy, the movie into it.
25:51
Matt
Drive me crazy by Rob Thomas. No, not that one. That I like. When the songs kind of go more deeper into the Superman lore, I just think it's really interesting and how the different bands interpret it. I mean, Superman's Dead by our Lady Peace isn't really about the specific death of Superman, but it's more about just, like, the failure of a hero. It's about. It's very angsty, very emo feeling. And, like, I feel like the songs that do a broader narrative of the hero's journey don't always make those specific references as much, but were just as common as the ones that did make the specific references.
26:28
Case
Yeah. And then there are the ones that are just, like, full on, like, very explicit. Like, the ides of March Superman song. There are so many songs, by the way, that are, if you just type Superman into Spotify, they'll have, like, a billion, like, endless options. Like, there's no end to that, but where it's, like, referencing Solomon Grundy. I was like, what?
26:46
Matt
Yeah, I mean, the crash test tummy song also, like, has a newspaper with Superman on it, and, like, also has a ton of explicit references to Superman and, like, mourning him not being around anymore. And, like, all of these songs about the death of Superman, the comic might have been out, but, like, it definitely wasn't as pervasive in pop culture as it is now. I feel like. And so that's always really interesting to me is, like. And I didn't really know some of these songs even existed. Like, I like the crash test dummies. Never. Never knew the song existed until very recently.
27:14
Case
Yeah. I think that is a theme that music explores a lot, where the idea that we used to have heroes and that we don't anymore, and, like, the people living now are just people and just doing their best. So many of these are like, I'm trying my best, but I'm not Superman.
27:28
Matt
Yeah.
27:29
Case
And, like, the ones that actually, like, play with Superman often find the stance of being in a world without Superman in. In the wake of him having existed. And either that being, like, literally, like, Kal El, the son of Krypton, Yadda, Yadda, Superman, or just whoever you find to be your hero, you know, a society post the founding fathers for the US, or a society post king Arthur, like, England post King Arthur, or whatever world you want to say, like, we had this person who was. Who was our beacon of hope and is no longer there, you know, our Charlemagne, and he cried because the Vikings will come when he falls. Like, kind of situation. Like, those are interesting points that I think resonate lyrically for people. Like, you can. You can tell a story about how it feels to live in that world.
28:13
Case
And with so much of music being about emotion and the state of being like that, I think that becomes an interesting vantage point that a lot of these songs adopt and some of these predate the death of Superman in the comics, it's just like, yeah, we used to have a hero and we don't anymore is. I think that resonates.
28:28
Matt
Yeah, for sure. And, like, I think that's important part of this conversation, too. Like, we could list Superman songs all day, but, like, why do people write songs about Superman? Why that character specifically? Like, we jokingly mentioned before, like, Chad Kroger and the song hero from the Spider man movie, which, like, love or hate those bands. Josie Scott and Chad Kroger specifically. That song is catchy song. It's a really well done music video. It was key to those, to the movie. But, like, why. Why do we have songs like that? And I think the reality is, like, we all, there's this wanting to look towards a fantasy and look towards. To someone to protect us and, like, or separating ourselves from people, whether we're the Superman or we're projecting onto a Superman.
29:12
Matt
I just think it's really fascinating that, like, if there were one or two songs about Superman or the Superman, fine. But, like, in an age before, like, pop culture was pervasive and ubiquitous, tons of folks wrote about Superman as opposed to other characters. Like, there. There are songs that reference Batman, too, but not on the level that Superman is. Even Spider man, like, has, you know, the Ramon song Spider man and things like that. Like, but more of those are direct references. But Superman just exists in the pantheon of music in a way that I feel like no other hero does.
29:46
Case
Yeah, there's no song that's quite like the ballad of Barry Allen, you know, where it's just, like, how sad it is to be that character. I think having this conversation is making me think about a stance that I have about the viewpoint character in Superman stories shifting over time, where, like, earlier on, the idea was, it's young readers. In a lot of cases, it's either going to be a Jimmy Olsen type or just a passerby observing a character. Like, how amazing is it that we're telling stories about a hero like this? You're not that guy. But, but that's. It's so cool, isn't it, that there's a guy that's, that's, that's that cool out there? Like, even, like, Billy Batson in, like, Captain Marvel stuff was like, I'm not Captain Marvel. I can turn into him, but, like, he's still a different person.
30:26
Case
And let me tell you about the cool stories kind of component there. And that, like, comic books have often shifted or have shifted over time to being, like, we're inside the head of those characters. You know, Spider Man, I think, is a big part of that. Like, the. The Marvel age of, like, here's all the angst and so forth. Like, really, like, contributes to that. And nowadays, a lot of Superman books are really from the vantage point of Superman trying to deal with the world. But songs work really well from the standpoint of talking about a person they thought was cool or a person that they miss. And I think that makes music a really pure way of approaching this earlier kind of perspective. No one tells a story about, like, oh, God, wasn't it awesome when I was Hercules?
31:03
Case
But people tell stories about, oh, how cool was Hercules back in the day? And I think music really lends itself to those kind of things. And when it's not, it's those kind of songs where it's like, look how sexually awesome I am as a Superman. That's the other side of that. There's a lot of these songs are like, oh, God, we miss this character, or we need this person, or, I feel so safe when I'm with this person. You know, it's like the Barbra Streisand lyrics there. And again, a lot of it is a metaphor. A lot of it isn't, like saying that this is Clark Kent, whatnot, but saying, I have found my version of this character.
31:39
Case
If Superman is this apogee that we're supposed to look up to, we are now experiencing that in the real world, or we are feeling the loss of that or the longing for that in a way that, like, comics don't do anymore. Like, like, you're supposed to be with the main character for the most part, and not the side characters.
31:57
Matt
Yeah. There's this lack of awe for superheroes. And, like, the music does capture that. I mean, look, even all joking aside, like, bonnie Taylor's song, holding out for hero. Like, this is, like someone, like, in trouble wanting a hero, right? Like, needing someone to save her. And I think that kind of perspective, and it's not a damsel in distress song, necessarily. It's like, I'm holding out for a hero. Where have all the heroes gone? Like, I mean, Paul Cole. Where have all the cowboys gone? Like, even stretching it further beyond superheroes, this longing for heroes, like you mentioned, case, I think, is also a very constant thing in pop music writing. I think that writing about Superman is easy because he's just ubiquitous. Like, it's possible for someone, though, less likely to not know who Spider man or Batman is, especially now.
32:48
Matt
But I feel like anyone at any age grandparent to small child knows who Superman is. He's just kind of like the red, white and blue the character. Like, Captain America has almost gotten to that point. But, like, I feel like there's no hero who's just as recognition, recognizable about Superman. So if you're gonna write a song about this nameless hero, why wouldn't you choose Superman? People, you don't have to explain anything. Like, that's why three doors down, though, they can go fuck themselves. Like, they chose kryptonite. Because people know what kryptonite is. Almost anybody knows what kryptonite is, even if you've never read a Superman comic.
33:27
Case
Well, and. Cause, like, Superman at a certain point is. Is that hypothetical, arbitrary, adjective person right thing concept. You know, it's. It's so far out there. Like, Batman is still more of a specific character.
33:41
Matt
Yep.
33:42
Case
Superman, despite all of, like, the. The details that we have thrown on, there is still very much, like, just good person guy out there, you know, like, a song that's not on this list is wonder boy by tenacious D. Right. And, like, you know, I think that's dealing with the same kind of ideas. They just didn't want to be as explicit as all that. Like, there have been superheroes named Wonder Boy, one of which is, like, a very thinly veiled Superman analog. Like. Like, down to the point he's an alien who came on a meteor and crash landed and decided that he was going to help people. And he can jump an 8th of a mile. He's nigh invulnerable, and he's super strong. That was his deal. He's in a blue and red costume with a star on his chest. It's so close.
34:23
Case
It's, like, frustrating to see it. But they're definitely not talking about that character. They're just, like, talking about, like, here's a generic superhero idea out there. And, like, Superman is almost that, but he's a little bit more grounded in pop culture. There's a little bit more to reference. But everyone fucking knows who he is. Yeah, everyone knows those details. And if you slip up something, no one fucking cares for sure.
34:46
Matt
And, like, it doesn't mean that songs like Luthor don't have their place where they are hyper specific. Those. But those songs, like. Like, I feel like someone who's not a Superman fan could enjoy that song, especially if you still like hip hop. But Superman fans will absolutely love that song because it's like, they said the thing. They referenced the thing. Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. And I love that side of it, too. And I don't. And also, I want to be clear. I'm not hypothesizing that there's a right way to do it. I think there's a wrong way to do it. And it's Superman by Eminem, but I don't think that there's, like, a right way to do it. I think.
35:20
Case
I don't even know if that's a wrong way.
35:21
Matt
I know it's not.
35:22
Case
Aside. Aside from the issues with, like, that style of rap, which, you know, has fallen out of fashion anyway, so, like, clearly less important and, you know, whatever is complicated. Like, he's also been, like, on the right side of a lot of politics, too. Sure.
35:36
Matt
Like, yeah, you know, I'm mostly joking with that. I think it's more, though, that I think your taste is going to determine what preference you have for a type of Superman song. And I don't think there's a right or wrong way. Like, do I prefer the ones that are just a one off reference? Not so much. But I'm also not listening to Superman by Goldfinger because it's a Superman song. I'm listening to it because it's a kick ass got song that I want to skank to like. And so I think that's also the difference is, like, some songs, you want to hear the reference, you want to live in that world that the song is creating, and sometimes you just want to dance and have fun. And I think that it both can work. It just depends on where.
36:13
Matt
Where you're going for that kind of thing and what you're looking for.
36:16
Case
Yeah. And I guess I would say the best. Do both.
36:19
Matt
Yes.
36:19
Case
You know, the best provide all of those things. Sure. Like, goldfinger, Superman could have, like, just a hint more. And I would love it even more.
36:28
Matt
Yeah.
36:29
Case
Because certainly. But, like, it's not why I would have heard it in the first place. Right. It's not why I would have downloaded it on Napster in the first place. The fact that it's called Superman is the reason why it has made it from hard drive to hard drive over the years. But, yeah, but I mean, like, a little bit of a reference. Cool. Deep reference is awesome. If it's a good song, is also very important. Like a song that is just like, hey, I want to tell you about Superman. He was born, like, he was born on Krypton, came here. Like, that would be a little bit rough. And I'm doing, like, a little bit of a country voice because I was surprised to find that there is a country song on this list. There was a man of steel by.
37:08
Matt
By Hank Williams Junior.
37:10
Case
Yeah. So, like, that one I was surprised to see. And it's another one that's just like a, like, I can be the tough guy here. Like, he does say Superman in addition to man of Steel, but it's like I can toughen up and be like a big, strong man type character. But it is interesting to see that there's no one genre. Also, like, we've talked about rap. We've talked about show tunes because holding out for a hero was originally for footloose. Yeah, we've talked about all kinds of stuff on this. And so it's like, it's nice to see that, like, oh, yeah. And country is represented as well.
37:37
Matt
Yeah. I mean, I think it transcends, again the genre that it's in because it's so well known. I also just really like that with music, you can convey, like we taught. We spent a whole episode talking about how with not a single lyric, you can convey Superman. It's the horn, the drums. And so now we're on the other side where you're explicitly mentioning him. But even then, whether it's hyper detailed in a song like Luthor or, like, barely detailed in a song like Superman, like, I think both of them convey the character in different ways. I mean, there are horns in Superman by Gulfinger, so, you know. Right.
38:16
Case
Yeah, exactly. Oh, man, if only the horns were just like, a little bit. A little. If they had the ones that were the Superman ones, God, that would break.
38:26
Matt
My brain because it's funny. And I think I said this in the last episode, but, like, I never explicitly said to myself, horns equal Superman. But when we talked about it, I was like, of course this makes sense. And, like, that would just blow my mind. If I went back and listened to Goldfinger and had the little ta, like, in the background, I'd be like, what?
38:46
Case
I would love, like, a ska version of the John Williams.
38:48
Matt
It has to exist. Rule 34. There's no way.
38:52
Case
It probably does exist.
38:54
Matt
But, yeah, I think that. I also think Superman is a character that I like to joke that he is a boring character, but it's not true. Like, especially modern iterations of him that's shown him go through so much. And, like, I'm curious as how this character has evolved, how we might see this music evolve, too. I mean, like I wanted to say is half a joke is like his son being out and queer. Like, I would love, like, a queer club banger for his theme or something like. Or someone to write about that specific version of Superman and make it, like, a queer club hit or some kind of, like, Runway song or something. Like, something that feels inherently queer. Like, that sounds fun to me. And I don't know if that exists. It might, but if it doesn't, not yet. Right?
39:35
Matt
It probably will soon. And, like, those kinds of ideas. Also, like, I'm actually surprised I didn't do an explicit search, but, like, just broadly, I didn't see much about Lois Lane, like, references for sure, but I don't really see any songs about Lois Lane. They may be out there, but, like, I would love to see more of the other ants. Not ancillary, but, like, other characters in the Superman world, like Luthor by Lex, to get their own songs, too. I think that would be a lot of fun.
40:03
Case
So it is funny, though, that when you mentioned Lois Lane, like, she is explicitly referenced in rapper's delight, which is often considered the first rap song.
40:11
Matt
That's true. You're right. Absolutely.
40:14
Case
There are elements there. But that's also then still from the perspective of, like, I can be your Superman if you're my Lois Lane, where it's like, the sort of sexual relationship which is in, you know, a part of certain genres of music and, like, particularly certain types of storytelling that is done within those song styles. Like, a lot of country, a lot of rap, a lot of those have, like, I am going to win you over because I'm such a cool dude kind of vibe to it, you know, however you define cool and, like, for whatever reasons. So there are, you know, so I guess there are elements there. But, like, the modern cultural understanding of Lois Lane as such a badass.
40:50
Matt
Yeah.
40:50
Case
Is. I'm very here for now because, like, there's definitely a lot of people who are brought up on, like, the, can you read my mind? Kind of like the, you know, seventies Superman movie kind of take where it's like a bit more of a damsel and, like, that's kind of a bummer. Versus, as we established in the man of Steel miniseries that relaunched the character in the eighties, she has, like, the highest body count of anyone in the whole thing. Terrorists attack a boat she's on and she just kicks a guy in the nut, steals the Zeus. He just starts firing off, like, lois Lane crazy.
41:22
Matt
Yeah. No, I mean, I like Superman. I keep prefacing it because I don't want anyone to think I hate Superman. But, like, it is a very hetero story. It was written by hetero men. Like, it was written by jews. Which is why anytime a right wing anybody says they like Superman, I'm like, how do you not get it? It's like everyone says, I wish Star Trek wasn't so woke. Did you never watch this show? Yeah.
41:46
Jmike
Have you never watched the Star Trek.
41:47
Matt
Show that complaining is, but he is.
41:50
Case
Black on the other half of his face.
41:52
Matt
But, like, Superman is a very hetero story at its core, right? Like, powerful dude, pretty woman, fall in love, have kids, whatever. And, like, there's nothing wrong with that. But, like, there isn't a lot of inherent queerness in Superman's early stuff. There's definitely a ton of it now. There are other queer characters and all of that stuff. And so I would love to see more of, like, what you're saying, like, bad. Like, less chauvinistic Lois Lane and more like badass Lois Lane, written by women for women.
42:21
Case
Investigator Taylor's version.
42:24
Matt
I mean, I would listen to it, but yeah, I think that these songs, grouping them together show, though, how, like, you can say Superman's ubiquitous and believe it's pretty common. But, like, this, the history of music through looking up Superman related, like, pop songs specifically and the, like, really show this broader culture. That, like, was my hypothesis, but is absolutely true that Superman is everywhere, has always been everywhere. And, like, you just look at music and you see it, right, because of all the one off references versus full songs about the character.
42:59
Case
And he's been around so long. Is the other part having a conversation about the ballad of Barry Allen where it's like, yeah, it's an early two thousands. Kind of like alt rock song that's like, I really like. It's about a character who first showed up in 1958. That's still 20 years after Superman. Superman has been around for a long time. He was, like the face of the us government during World War Two. They sent so much material over to the, like, to the troops. They had so much propaganda that was using Superman because that was such a good symbol there. It is such a fixture of pop culture that it has trickled out in weird ways. Like, I had no expectation that I would have a Barbra Streisand song on this list.
43:42
Matt
Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, and, like, we're specifically, obviously coming from three people who live in the US, but, like, truth, justice, and the american way. Like, realistically, Superman doesn't give a shit about America. He's not american. Like, yeah, he just lives here. He's an illegal alien. Sorry. But, like, truthfully, like, he was so ingrained in american culture and so it makes sense that there would be, you know, not just toys and tv shows and comic books, but, and movies, but music as well. That's not just music to support the media made for him, but also music that just reference him is about him, has things about him in it.
44:23
Case
Yeah. And, like, there's all, like, all kinds of stuff, you know, we've alluded to all these different genres and so forth. And, like, we've touched on musicals. And I do want to call out a thing that it's not a song element, but it was just part of the musical, which is for Godspell. Traditionally, you would dress Jesus in a Superman T shirt to convey that he's supposed to be the symbol of good. Like, it's an interesting spot where, like, the iconography of pop culture actually is easier to sell than the straightforward, like, religious elements of that show, where it's like, don't worry about him being, like, specifically a christian thing. It's just, he's saying just good stuff in this hole.
45:00
Case
And we're going to sell you on that by having him wear a Superman shirt, which I thought was, like, a really interesting one there. And I did also want to call out a song from next to normal, which stuck out for me mostly because, like, that show was running off Broadway when I first moved to New York. I loved that show. I saw it with Brian Darcy James doing the dad. It was so much fun. And, like, were all obsessed with that soundtrack at the time. And there's Superboy and the invisible girl on there where the daughter trying spoilers for next to normal, a Broadway show that has been, at the very least, nominated for Tony's a decade ago. I don't know how.
45:35
Jmike
I mean, this is news to me.
45:39
Case
Next to normal. It's a spoiler for the first big reveal of the show, which is that the son, who is one of the main characters singing and whatnot, is actually dead. And that it's all the people sort of feeling the specter of this one person from the household. And so the song Superboy and the invisible girl is by his sister singing about how, like, everyone, like, everyone can't stop thinking about the dead brother and how, like, no one even can pay attention to the trauma she's going through. And it's such an interesting element there where, like, the lyrics are very explicitly using, like, superhero iconography to compare the state of existence, where, like, kind of what we're saying about Superman in general. Like, it's a big, broad metaphor for, like, good and we.
46:23
Case
It's very easy to apply to things that aren't right in front of you because you don't have to deal with, like, the actual flaws in. In them, which is why a lot of the songs that are better on this list are. Why are ones where it's like, I'm not Superman, I'm cracking under the pressure kind of stuff. And this is a song that's like that, where it's like, yeah, her parents look right through her because all they can focus on is the brother who isn't even in the room. And I just wanted to call that one out because I have a big emotional connection. Yeah, fuck it. It's my show.
46:51
Matt
Yeah. No, I mean, it makes sense. I mean, I think ultimately, why I still love Superman as a character is because of the humility that he portrays, that even though he's invincible, it doesn't mean he's necessarily unstoppable. Like, he can still feel pain emotionally. He can still, like, have his heart broken. He can still, like, all that stuff. And the way they've humanized Superman, especially recently in. In tv movies and comics. Like, I love that side of it. It's why I get so exhausted by the dark Superman take. Or, like, I never saw that horror movie take on Superman.
47:27
Case
I get why it.
47:29
Matt
Yeah, I get why it exists, and I get why people even like it, but that's, like, I just don't want to watch that Superman story. It's why I ultimately don't like man of steel that much. It's not, and we've talked about this before, but, like, I think this gets to the core of it. It's not because it's a bad Superman movie. Right. It's actually not bad that bad. It's because there's still this dark tone to it that just doesn't feel like Superman to me. Like, I get not trusting him. I get all of that stuff in the storyline, but, like, if we want to make him kill someone, if we want to make him be dark and angsty, like, yes. But also Superman is a symbol of hope and makes other people feel hopeful.
48:06
Matt
If you take that from the character, it's why this tie. I'll tie it back to the Eminem song. Right. The reason I'm so hard on it is because that song has very little to do with hope, and not every song has to, but, like, there just doesn't feel anything Superman about that song, other than Superman equals super sexy, which is fine. And I think that's where the Superman media is at. Its best is when it is instilling us with hope. Even in the most devastating of moments, there's still this spark of hope. It's what those original movies did really well. It's what the, you know, Tim Daley led cartoon did very well. Like, even when Superman was in a moment of despair, we knew that there was still hope around the corner. It was gonna come back around.
48:44
Matt
And I think the songs that portray that do are the best of those. Of those moments.
48:50
Case
Yeah. I think what you're speaking to is, like, the key dissonance of how we, as a pop culture understand Superman versus, like, what the stories they're trying to do are saying. Yeah, like, Superman, as evidenced by all of these songs, is about someone who is good. Yeah, like that. Like, that's just how we understand it in pop culture. And the idea of doing a story that is a deviation from that, I think is interesting as long as we keep affirming the fact that, like, the defaults when we say Superman, like, it's not just that you're saying someone is powerful, you're saying someone is good. And then to say, all right, this is a deviation for x reason or y reason, but we're going to keep resetting to the status quo for the mainstream.
49:33
Case
The problem of a lot of the media today is because people don't have a strong through line that they want to really work with. That is in that sort of optimistic, hopeful kind of sense that we're constantly deviating from the thing, but almost to the point where deviations have become the norm in their explicit pop cultures thing. But again, the core understanding of our pop culture knowledge of Superman is that he's a good guy. And that if you say you can have scenes in the Simpsons where it's just like, I've never really been a praying man, but if you're out there, please save me, Superman. Those moments exist because it is a fundamental metaphor for someone doing the right thing when they have the power to do it.
50:20
Case
And any sort of point where you deviate from that, you have to justify why I just picked up the omnibus for irredeemable. Like, the Mark Wade book, where it's like, what if Superman, after, like, years of, like, hearing everyone talk behind his back, finally went nuts and, like, that's a great comic. It's real, told really well. It's because Mark Wade can write the shit out of Superman. Like, he is doing the amazing world's finest book at the moment. Like. Like, just has done incredible Superman stories. Like, you know, obviously, like, kingdom come which is seen as, like, a dark Superman story. But in the end, Superman chooses hope. You know, like, that's.
50:52
Matt
That.
50:53
Case
That is always a point you have to get to, like, whenever you show, like, the darkness possible in the. In the genre, you have to get to the hope somewhere in there. Either Superman directly or someone, like, invincible, where, like, secretly invincible is the Superman character in that story, even though his dad looks like the Superman character in the story. Like that. That's the thing there. Like, ultimately, that character is the symbol of hope in it all. And clearly, our language, our music, all lends itself to that big, major key hero stepping in and making us feel safe. And music oftentimes makes us feel comfortable or good or happy or charged. And Superman songs tend to lend themselves towards, like, making you feel like you are in the right place at the right time.
51:37
Matt
Yeah, totally. And before we get too far away from it, though, I like what you said about, like, that Superman can be dark, but it always has to come back to hope. And I think it's why I get so mad about the people. Like, oh, just make a dark Superman. It's like if you. If we flipped it on its head and went, well, just make. Make a bright and shiny Batman. It sounds dumb, right? Without context. Right? But that Batman does exist. It's the Adam West Batman. I still argue one of the best versions of Batman because it still gets the core of the character down. But the thing is that Batman comes back to not being about hope. That even though Bruce is suave and smart and, like, Batman can get things done there, something always goes wrong.
52:15
Matt
He's always got to save the day and figure it out. Like, there are elements of the darker Batman within that story. I think the core of those characters still have to exist, even when you flip it on its head. Otherwise, you just have, like, a premise and it's fine, but, like, you be smarter about it. I just don't want a Superman that murders people. That's boring, like, on its head. But if you do something with that narrative, that's a different story. And same with Batman, same with any other superhero.
52:41
Case
Well, I think. I mean, like, when not to go too far into the movies kind of thing, but, like, talking about Batman stuff like Batman, I don't think is the inverse of Superman.
52:48
Matt
No.
52:49
Case
I think that there's a reason they are world's finest together. I think that. I think that the strength of stuff like the Nolan movies of, like, the most recent Matt Reeves Batman movie are that they try. They start from a place of darkness and then each one of those movies ends in a place of hope where things are better, because the heroic actions of this character, it's not a crapsack world that's just getting worse, and that it's, you know, it's not a character who is just slowing the. The inevitable tide of bad or making it worse in the first place. Like, you know, Batman is actively making the world a better place. And sometimes he has to learn to make a world a better place because he's motivated by tragedy in a way that Superman isn't.
53:27
Case
Like Superman has tragedy in his background, but it isn't his motivating factor. It's in fact, the element of, like, I have the ability to make things better, so why can't I do it? I feel like I couldn't before. It's not because I couldn't at the time, but, like, I didn't save Krypton because I was a baby. But now I have the power to save this world, and I can do that. And I. So I think that's the thing people are missing where it's, like, all the Batman movies end with a note of hope at the end. And every time they do a dark Superman story, they have to remind them. Like, we have to remind them. Like, put that in there.
53:59
Matt
Yeah.
54:01
Case
Things are better.
54:02
Matt
Yeah, totally. But I think you're right. Also, when it comes to music, I think it's very translatable. And I think that because Superman always comes back to hope, that's what makes it translatable, even if the song isn't inherently about hope. Again, we have some songs on this list that are just kind of tangentially or lewdly in a wildly different direction. But I think ultimately, the character of Superman inspires hope or brings hope or other very bare bones of it. Puts a smile on someone's face. The mention of Superman mostly puts a smile on someone's face. So even in a song by Eminem or, like, soldier Boy song, the mention of Superman puts a smile on someone's face because it's a reference they understand.
54:42
Matt
It's a character of hope, even if that song or moment isn't about the same hope we want to draw from Superman.
54:48
Case
Yeah. I mean, clearly, looking at all these conversations about Superman songs, you know, a shocking amount of material that people have tried in all kinds of different ways. J Mike, is there anything that you wanted to talk about that's on this list? I know that there were a shitload of songs that you thought that we'd already, like, excited, but it's just because we found a big list.
55:06
Jmike
No, I'm not going torture you guys with the daughtry stuff. Because that's like, we've been there. We had to grow up through all that stuff.
55:13
Matt
It's all.
55:13
Jmike
Okay.
55:14
Case
Thank you. That was that game of chicken I was playing with you just now. I was like, is he going to talk about daughters?
55:19
Jmike
Okay. We lived in the early two thousands.
55:22
Case
Yeah, there are fun ones on this list. Like, I've got the REm song. It was originally by the click, but Rem does the COVID And most people know the COVID That's just the light and fluffy Superman song. A lot of these are just like. He's like, I can see through you because I know everything I capable. I am everything is the lyrics on that one. And it's like, yeah, sure, I guess, like, I can see right through you as like a double entendre for x ray vision and other stuff. But, like, okay, whatever.
55:46
Matt
Yeah. And, like, we have the red me zero song on here. We talked about that in the last episode. But it is. It's a pop song. Like, it fits on this list, too. Because it's not only what's better on this list, right? I mean, well, because we talked about how a lot of us didn't like it. Because it was a pop song where everything else was more instrumental. But here it totally works. Even if it was never theme for Smallville. Because it's just a very good, well made pop song that conveys the feeling of Superman.
56:11
Case
That's the song that feels very much like a Lois Lane falling from the building kind of song.
56:15
Matt
Yeah, I would agree.
56:16
Case
Even though it's like a male singer on there. And then there's like, we've got Alanis Morissette.
56:20
Matt
Oh, my God. From her pop era. If you've not heard Alanis Morissette's song Superman, a lot of folk think that jagged little pill was her first album. Ostensibly for her popularity, at least it was. But she had a previous record self titled, I believe, that was full of pop songs. She was just a canadian pop star. And one of them is about Superman. And it's a cool little song. It's not anything groundbreaking, but it's a fun little pop song.
56:45
Case
Yeah. It says Superman in it. And that's about all that ties it to this list. Right? Yeah. But suffice it to say, there is a huge breadth of material for us to talk about that's music related. I mean, obviously, we talked about themes already. We talked about this, you know, so we're not doing next time the musical, but we are going to talk about the musical at some point.
57:06
Jmike
I still can't believe there was a musical.
57:09
Case
Yeah. So for listeners who are not familiar, back in the seventies, there was a show called it's a bird, it's a plane, it's Superman, which is. Yeah, it's a Superman musical. It's a weird show. One of the tracks actually became, like, a pop song of the day. Like, I forget which one off the top of my head, but when I was listening, I was like, wait a second. This song, we're not talking about it next. We're moving on. But we do actually want to have that conversation. So this is not the end of us talking about music related to Superman stuff. And I know that if we said, like, hey, we just did an episode all about themes of Superman, and then here's all this music of Superman, people would be like, well, what about the musical?
57:50
Case
So that's why, like, the bulk of our musical theater stuff was, like, towards the end of this list, because we wanted to, like, sort of segue there. But. So when we come back next time, we're going to be talking about Superman Doomsday. And we've got. We're actually pretty close to our 100th episode, so we've got a bunch of, like, big episodes in the works. We'll be talking about all star Superman finally, and then we'll be talking about all star Superman finally, because it's worth two parts. And we've got, like, a lot of big stuff coming up. But eventually, we will be talking about the Superman musical. And, Matt, as our editor, I am sorry to be putting you to that conversation.
58:25
Matt
It's fine.
58:26
Case
The guests we've got lined up are theatrical people.
58:30
Matt
Look, I've seen bits and pieces of Spider man turn off the dark. It's no way. It's worse than that. It's not possible to be worse than that.
58:37
Jmike
Wait, hold up. Spider man had a musical?
58:39
Matt
J Mike, tell me you've lived under a rock and actually don't know that there was a Spider man musical.
58:43
Jmike
Oh, God. I know. This is a good thing. I shouldn't have admitted that.
58:46
Matt
No.
58:49
Case
Not just was there a Spider man musical with music by the edge from U two. It's bad. Was it Baz Luhrmann?
58:57
Matt
Yeah. And it follows. Like, it has all the villains in it. Like, carnage is in it, venom's in it, like, green goblins in it, Doc ock. Like, it's.
59:04
Jmike
This sounds hilariously bad.
59:06
Matt
It's so bad.
59:07
Case
Well, the most important part is that it was so hilariously bad that it had to be shut down and restaged because it was so bad. And also it was so bad in the way that, like, actors kept on being horrifically injured in ways that were terrible. Yep. Honestly, like. Like, honestly, it's one of those horror stories that people bring up for, like, why equity is important as a union to protect the actors. Because it was fucked up.
59:29
Matt
Yeah.
59:29
Case
Like, it went real bad.
59:31
Matt
They put Spider man on ropes and pulleys and stuff. Like, actors kept getting hurt. Like, the villains kept getting hurt. Yeah.
59:36
Case
I had a friend in the audience when, like, Spider man just, like, fell from the, like, from the rigging into the audience and, like, I don't think he, like, he survived. But that was about all you can really say for it. Like, the actor that went through bad stuff.
59:49
Matt
Yeah.
59:49
Jmike
Holy crap.
59:50
Matt
Yeah. I can't believe you didn't know this. I didn't think that was such a very New York thing, but here we are. Yeah. Google Spider man. Turn off the door. Yeah. Crazy.
01:00:00
Case
That's. That's who I was thinking of for the director on that one. Yeah. Yeah. The music was by Bono and the edge. And it's a.
01:00:07
Matt
It's bad.
01:00:07
Case
It's a trip, man.
01:00:09
Matt
It's so bad. It's a. I mostly want J Mike to see it for the costume because the costumes were great in a terrible way.
01:00:16
Case
Yeah, they're wild.
01:00:17
Matt
They're just wild. They feel like masquerade heads. It's bad. Yeah. Now I'm completely derailed.
01:00:23
Case
No stuff. Yeah. So when we do have this conversation about it's a bird, it's a plane, it's Superman, we are going to take it from the perspective of a production meeting where we try to figure out how we would actually do a good Superman musical from that. So, listeners, we will be back eventually with that one. But like I said, we've got a lot of really great stuff coming up. Great stuff that, Matt, you as our editor will be working on, but you're also working on tons of great stuff yourself. So why don't you give some plugs, even if it's just like saying verbatim what your link tree link is, because you've got so much stuff going on.
01:00:58
Matt
So I do. I do want to actually shout out my most recent gig I picked up. I am the freelance editor for the game Informer show. Anyone who likes video games know game Informer has been around for ages. It's one of the longest running video game magazines that's still running. And that show was shifting from video and audio to just audio. And the current host, Alex van Aiken, asked me to join the team. And so I am a freelance editor for that. That's really cool. As of when you're hearing this, I've edited the last two episodes, but since pretty much episode 616 and beyond, that's me editing. So definitely check that out. It's really cool. But if you want to check out all the other stuff I'm doing, it's at djstormageddon.com dot. I edit for a ton of podcasts on this network.
01:01:37
Matt
I edit for a ton of shit off this network. You want to buy my merch? I also have a merch store with cool t shirts, mugs, tote bags. Everyone loves a tote bag. And yeah, I could, like, free will pitch everything that I do, but it just would take too long. So again, go to djstormageddon.com or just follow me on Twitter. Dj stormageddon.
01:01:55
Case
Yes. Everyone should go do that because Matt's awesome. Matt is our editor. As I've said a couple of times, Matt is the only reason this show is able to continue functioning the way it does. There is a reason why scruffy Nerfheart has not had an episode in a year.
01:02:10
Matt
I will not edit an actual play podcast. That is my.
01:02:13
Case
Oh, my God, it is.
01:02:14
Matt
Cannot do it.
01:02:14
Case
It is ten minutes for every minute at least.
01:02:17
Matt
Will not do it.
01:02:19
Case
Those episodes are like 3 hours long. Yeah, man, that's a full time job. I have so much respect for all the people who are out there editing those real play podcasts. Like Dave Stewart for greetings, adventures. Great guy. I don't know how he has a life, but yeah, so everyone should check out all the stuff you're working on. They should go find you on Twitter, follow you, Matt, because you're awesome. And then they should head on over to J Mike 101 because they should follow J Mike on Twitter as well.
01:02:52
Matt
J Mike's a great follow. He's got a good gift game.
01:02:55
Jmike
I'm just a guy on twitter. There you go.
01:02:57
Matt
Look, enjoy. As someone who's not just a person on Twitter, it's not all that's cracked up to be. You're fine. You're doing great, j Mike. Don't worry about it.
01:03:07
Case
Yeah, you're probably using the website the way it was, like, actually intended in a healthy way. Whereas I'm like, well, I have to go on and retweet a certain number of times to build my brand. As for me, you can find me on Twitter acken. You can find the podcast enofsteelpod because thankfully, Matt pointed out to me one day that my running joke, which was not actually a joke, which was just me being mad that it had assigned me a 14 as a random number, that I could change it and I didn't realize that I could.
01:03:32
Matt
I've done that for several people. Someone who I will not names, who is also on our network, didn't know they could rename their Twitter handle either. So I just spread the knowledge. That's what I'm here for.
01:03:45
Case
So everyone should check out, all of us on Twitter. They should check out the show on Twitter. They should head over to certainpov.com where they can find so many shows of which we work on, a lot of them, the three of us. So there's a lot of that. You should check out our YouTube content. We've been putting out a ton of stuff recently. So the ministeel podcast as well as another pass, both are. We're now putting out clips for episodes that came out the previous week. So the week after this episode drops, there will be three clips going out Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday before the show. So it'll be stuff from this, but it'll be animated with visual aid. So check that out. Check out the stuff from another past. Check out the Superman analog videos I've been doing.
01:04:22
Case
We've actually, like, our YouTube count has gone up a ton in the last year. We've just cracked 400, which is pretty cool considering that at, in January were at 100. So that's like, actually pretty big. I'm very excited with the number of people who have actually gotten into it. So check out that out and then come back. Like I said, next time we're going to be talking about Superman Doomsday. And we've got a ton of, like, awesome content coming up after that. So we are barreling down towards episode 100. We've got big stuff in store for it. We've got tons of great ideas for it, and this has just been a really fun ride. J Mike, having you as my co host has been wonderful. Matt, having you as the editor on this one has been wonderful.
01:05:05
Case
We have so much we haven't talked about on this topic. How the hell have we not talked about some of the things? We haven't actually done an episode on the Max Fleischer cartoons yet. Nope, we have not.
01:05:15
Matt
That's true.
01:05:15
Case
Like, there's so much material out there, we could be going forever. And hopefully we do keep listening.
01:05:21
Matt
Guys.
01:05:23
Case
So, like I said, we've got tons of great stuff in the works, but until then, stay super man.
01:05:32
Jmike
Men of steel is a certain POV production. Our hosts are J Mike Folson and case Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm. Our logo is by Chris Batista. Episode art is by case Aiken, and our theme is by Jeff Moon.
01:05:51
Case
All right, let's do a clap to sync up. One, two, three, and then clap. One, two, three.
01:06:01
Matt
Sounded like it was in sync, so, yeah, that's what I was doing it. It's happening, guys, look, there have been so many episodes I've edited lately where it's like, clap, and then, like, the third one's half a second later. I'm like, come on.
01:06:14
Case
Well, I mean, again, that's just so you can see roughly where it is. Then when I'm like, hey, this is Matt. And you say hi, you're like, if it's like 5 seconds and then high, then, you know, like, oh, the track's off. Because I know, like, back in the day, I'd give you, like, a track that I'd start recording right when I got on the call, and other people would be, like, all over the place on it.
01:06:30
Matt
So, yeah, in the early days of this show, you'd have, like, an hour, like, what felt like an hour of lead up, and J Mike would have five minutes, and I'm like, where the fuck are you guys? What's happening?
01:06:42
Case
Well, that's why, like, when I was editing the show, I would always put the audio tracks I would sync up to the end, because that was usually a more accurate, like. Like, the end point was probably closer together, and then I knew I had to nudge it regardless. But, like, it was probably more in line.
01:06:55
Matt
I mean, that's why I have my guests on autographs do the sign off. Like, I prep them, and then they do it, because then my end and their beginning will always line up at the end, and then I can go backwards. Yeah, because I'm a genius. No, I didn't plan that at all. It's just happy accident, and I take advantage of it.
01:07:12
Case
Well, happy accidents are what we do here.
01:07:15
Matt
Pov that's true. Hi, I'm Matt, aka Stormigan, and I'm the host of CPOV autographs@certainpov.com. Dot. It is a bi weekly interview series where I interview folks from all over the arts, from writers to comedians to magicians to musicians, even actors, historians, podcasters, pretty much anyone who's willing to chat with me for a little bit. If you like interesting conversations with even more interesting people, go to certainpov.com or wherever you get your podcast cast. And remember, music is life and life is good.
01:07:47
Case
Cpov certainpov.com.