Episode 96 - The Music of Superman with Dan Purcell, and Matt Storm
The “Friend of All Pods”, Dan Purcell, and Matt Storm aka Stormageddon are here to talk about the musical themes of Superman. Check out the discussion!
Check out Dan’s music and find him on social media.
Find Matt here.
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Meeting summary:
● The meeting discussed the evolution and impact of Superman themes across various mediums, including music by composers like John Williams and Hans Zimmer. Guests shared insights on the emotional connections to the scores and their influence on the Superman franchise. Action items included promoting Dan Purcell's debut album and preparing for the next episode of Another Pass podcast.
Notes:
● 🎵 Introduction and Initial Discussion (00:00 - 01:16)
● Discussion on John Williams' Superman theme.
● Introduction of the Men of Steel podcast and hosts.
● Introduction of guests Matt Storm and Dan Purcell.
● 🎶 Themes of Superman (01:16 - 02:28)
● Discussion on various Superman themes over the decades.
● Mention of the John Williams score not being the favorite.
● Introduction of Matt Storm and his background in music podcasts.
● Dan Purcell's upcoming debut album and its Superman theme.
● 📻 Radio Show and Fleischer Cartoons (02:28 - 19:22)
● Discussion on the Superman radio show theme.
● Comparison to Batman orchestration.
● Introduction of the Fleischer cartoon theme by Sammy Timber.
● Influence of Fleischer theme on future Superman themes.
● 📺 George Reeves and 60s Cartoons (19:22 - 29:32)
● Discussion on George Reeves' Adventures of Superman theme.
● Comparison to Fleischer theme.
● Introduction of the New Adventures of Superman cartoon theme by John Gart.
● Critique of the 60s cartoon theme as less effective.
● 🎬 John Williams' Superman Score (29:32 - 39:53)
● In-depth discussion on John Williams' Superman score.
● Comparison to other John Williams' works like Star Wars and Indiana Jones.
● Impact of the score on the Superman franchise.
● Personal anecdotes and emotional connections to the score.
● 🎥 Supergirl Movie and Ruby Spears Cartoon (39:53 - 49:49)
● Discussion on the Supergirl movie theme by Jerry Goldsmith.
● Comparison to John Williams' Superman score.
● Introduction of the Ruby Spears Superman cartoon theme.
● Analysis of the 80s influence on the Ruby Spears theme.
● 📼 Superboy and Lois & Clark Themes (49:49 - 59:30)
● Discussion on the Superboy TV show theme by Kevin Kenner.
● Critique of the theme as a royalty-free version of John Williams' score.
● Introduction of Lois & Clark theme by Jay Gruska.
● Comparison to John Williams' love theme for Lois and Clark.
● 📺 Superman: The Animated Series (59:31 - 01:07:57)
● Discussion on the theme by Shirley Walker.
● Comparison to Batman: The Animated Series theme.
● Analysis of the theme's complexity and emotional depth.
● Personal connections and nostalgia for the animated series.
● 🎤 Smallville Theme (01:07:57 - 01:21:08)
● Discussion on the Smallville theme 'Save Me' by Remy Zero.
● Critique of using a pop song as a Superman theme.
● Comparison to other Superman themes without lyrics.
● Analysis of Smallville's impact on the Superman franchise.
● 🎼 Man of Steel Score by Hans Zimmer (01:21:08 - 01:32:37)
● In-depth discussion on Hans Zimmer's Man of Steel score.
● Comparison to John Williams' and other Superman themes.
● Analysis of the score's emotional and thematic elements.
● Debate on the movie's execution versus the score's potential.
● 📺 Supergirl TV Show and Superman & Lois (01:32:37 - 01:42:58)
● Discussion on the Supergirl TV show theme by Blake Neely.
● Introduction of Superman & Lois theme by Blake Neely and Dan Roemer.
● Analysis of the themes' emotional and narrative impact.
● Comparison to previous Superman themes and their evolution.
Transcription
00:00
Case
Spoiler alert. The John Williams score is not my favorite superman theme.
00:03
Dan
I mean, I don't think it's mine, either.
00:05
Jmike
Blasphemy.
00:06
Matt
Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I love it, but. Yeah, I don't think it's my favorite either, but I don't think my favorite theme would exist without it either.
00:13
Case
Right, exactly. And, like. And it's great. Technically speaking, I would say it's perfect. It's just not the one that hits me in the spot where I love it the most.
00:22
Jmike
Please stop. They're gonna drag us online.
00:26
Case
They're gonna drag us the John Williams score for quite a bit of time. If anyone thinks that we're not, they're crazy. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to the men of Steel podcast. I'm case Aiken, and as always, I'm joined by my co host, J. Mike Folson.
01:03
Jmike
Welcome back, everybody. Today's gonna be fun.
01:05
Case
Oh, today's gonna be a lot of fun. Cause we're really gonna get into the rhythm of Superman stuff, because today we are talking about.
01:12
Matt
Sorry.
01:13
Case
The themes of Superman. And as you can tell from the voice that just boomed in there, confirming what the let's rewatch crew said, by the way we approach podcasts. We have our editor. We have Matt Storm with us.
01:26
Matt
Hey, I'm happy to be here for a galaxy brained idea of a Superman episode that I yelled at case about for, I don't know, several years, almost as much as the animated series episode.
01:39
Case
Right. And that made a lot of sense because you had crash chords, which was a deep dive music podcast. I listened to a couple of the episodes, even though it had already been on hiatus by the time you and I actually met. And. Wow, those were deep dives. We're not going to be quite that deep, but we are going to have wonderful people discussing it, because also in the room, as you may have heard, we have the friend of all pods, Dan Purcell.
02:03
Matt
Love that.
02:04
Dan
What announcement. Well, hello, everybody. Thank you for having me on.
02:07
Case
And, dan, I'm so glad to get you on. We've been circling each other on the Internet for a while, and it's nice to actually be on a call for you finally.
02:14
Dan
We have. We have, indeed. And it's fitting that we're doing this as I'm sort of gearing up for my own sort of big Superman type reveal of dropping my debut album in a couple months.
02:27
Case
Excellent. So, at the end of the call, obviously, you should give all the details on where people should be looking for that, of course. But, like, I said, we're talking about themes of Superman and there's a lot, like, we kind of had to filter out some just because there's no chance, like, we're not going to look at every single animated movie that has been released that had like some sort of opening credits theme or anything like that. You know, we're trying to get big ticket ones on here while at the same time not just talking about the John Williams score five times.
02:52
Jmike
So, I mean, it'd be worth it.
02:55
Dan
Are we going to do a giant. I have a feeling we're going to do a giant detour about just the music of John Williams in general on this podcast. Because how can we not without seeing, without, like, having it as hanging over us like a giant s shaped elephant in the room?
03:12
Case
Well, it's so interesting looking at something like this, where we're gonna be looking at themes from many decades. And, you know, one of the nice things about art forms that like this is that it's cumulative. So, like, everything is influenced by the ones that came before or are trying to avoid being too much like the ones before. So no matter what, we're going talk about how these things play in. So earlier tracks, by definition, are going to have the disadvantage of not being able to play off the stuff that then comes later. Like the stuff that comes later can work with, oh, here's the lessons learned and here's how we can build upon it and do it right. But that said, spoiler alert, the John Williams score is not my favorite superman theme.
03:50
Dan
I don't think it's mine either.
03:52
Case
Yes.
03:52
Matt
For me, yeah. I don't know. I mean, I love it, but, yeah, I don't think it's my favorite either, but I don't think my favorite theme would exist without it either.
03:59
Case
Right, exactly. And it's great. Technically speaking, I would say it's perfect. It's just not the one that hits me in the spot where I love it the most.
04:09
Jmike
Please stop. They're going to drag us online.
04:13
Case
They're going to drag us the John Williams score for quite a bit of time. If anyone thinks that we're not, they're crazy and they know that. We're trying to be an optimistic show here. We try not to have bit sessions. And before we started recording, were talking about how just listening to all these tracks, getting ready for this call, it gets your heart pumping because all of these are bangers in some way, even the worst of them.
04:34
Matt
Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, also something important to point out, just from my years of experience doing a mediocre music review podcast, is that music hits everybody differently. Right? I know Dan talks about this on TikTok all the time. Just because something's great doesn't mean you'll identify with it. And often.
04:50
Dan
Exactly.
04:50
Matt
The reason pop music shines, I think, above a lot of other genres, is because it's less about whatever the nebulous quality of the music is. It's more about what you pull from the music, whether it's the lyrics, the rhythm, the percussion, the synth, whatever. But, like, it's something you connect to. And I think especially with Superman themes, it's the same thing, right? Odds are, like Doctor who and some other pop cultures, your superman is also gonna be your favorite Superman theme because you're so close to it.
05:16
Dan
I don't want to tangent into the excitement that I had when David Tennant was announced to come back for the coming season, you and me. But I will say I agree with that. And I'm curious, for everybody on the call right now, what in particular about music are you drawn to initially when you first hear a record, be it any of these themes that we've sort of. We're gonna be reviewing, but also just in general, when it comes to music.
05:40
Matt
I mean, for me, I think it's emotionality. I mean, Dan knows this. I've gushed to Dan about his music and how I connected to it. And so, like, I. An emotional hook is gonna get me before anything else does. Like, if you write a sappy song about love or about heartbreak or about struggle, like, I. And it's really the emotions real to it. I will connect to that before anything else. Like the musicality and the composition is important, but I think because I'm an empath, that's just what I hone in first when I'm listening to music.
06:10
Case
J Mike, I'm gonna go last because I'm lame. So go.
06:13
Jmike
I mean, I don't know how you think about all that. They went really deep, and I was not expecting that this early.
06:23
Dan
I'll volunteer a few if you would like to the brainstorm.
06:26
Matt
Sure, go for it.
06:27
Dan
Weirdly enough, like, I know, Matt, you've said in regards to my music how much you are drawn to it and, like, the sort of the expressiveness and the emotionality of it. But weirdly enough, that is usually not the first thing that catches my ear when I start listening to something. And maybe it is something in particular as it correlates to the Superman themes. But I'm usually so honed in on groove and rhythm and beat, and very particularly with the case of all of the Superman themes, for the most part, there is usually some sort of rhythmic element. That case, as you mentioned, gets your heart pumping because it's like suddenly like, it's sort of like you're like, oh, what's gonna happen? What's next? What's next? You know?
07:08
Case
Yeah, I mean, for me, this is gonna be an interesting one because music for me, is a very contextual thing. I really respond to visual stimuli that corresponds to music. I really respond to the circumstances in which I hear it. I often talk about how I really didn't listen to music regularly until I got a car and I was driving and listening to the radio a lot. Music videos are often a big touchstone for me, or often referencing, oh, this was used in that movie or on that show, and that's usually where I go to first. Like, my wife has a degree in music, was an opera singer. Like, has all these touchstones on music. And every time she'll reference a song, I'll be like, oh, it was from that movie. And she's like, why do you think that?
07:53
Case
Why does your brain work that way?
07:55
Dan
I have a very similar kind of brain as you. I am very much visual oriented. Whenever I listen to something, I am imagining a sequence happening in my head. It's almost like it's some sort of weird, because I had a conversation with a couple of collaborators of mine a few years back on Twitter. I was like, wait, hold on. You don't listen. You don't hear or see a scene happening in your head as you're listening to a song. And they were like, no, you probably have some sort of weird form of synesthesia. Feels like it's a form of synesthesia. And I was like, maybe it is. And I've heard of different degrees of.
08:42
Dan
It's not necessarily matching a note with a color, but I think that is some sort of form of contextual synesthesia where you're like, you have some sort of visual stimulus that you pair with the audio stimulus to create some sort of echoic memory in your brain and sort of an emotional memory of the feeling of you experiencing the music.
09:04
Case
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I used to make anime music videos back in the day when I was popular, before YouTube became the dominant thing and then copyright shut down. You can find some of them that I was able to re upload later, but for a long time they kept on getting wiped out. But it would be such a natural thing to be like, oh, well, I've got footage. And how can I fit this to music and play around music would come to mean something to me was by having something built around it.
09:31
Dan
That's awesome.
09:32
Case
And like you said, like, building a scene or something like that was a big way for. For me to do stuff like that. Like, I spent so much time taking the footage from the. From the opening of Warcraft three. And, like, there's a spot where, like, an orc is drumming and, like, modifying the beats so it match up to a Linkin park sunset.
09:47
Matt
God, that's so 2000.
09:50
Case
Oh, yeah.
09:51
Matt
Oh, yeah.
09:51
Dan
Oh, that's great.
09:52
Case
That's how I taught myself video editing.
09:54
Jmike
Oh, my God.
09:55
Dan
I feel like that's how we all taught ourselves video editing. It was like we had to at least, like, we found a song that we all liked and we're like, oh, I gotta put this. I gotta put this to, like, some sort of epic visual, like goku going Super Saiyan or something like that, you know? Right, exactly.
10:11
Jmike
Yeah. That didn't happen a lot in college. I keep walking somebody's dorm, they just have, like, their music playing in the background. It'd be like a Naruto video or a DBZ video with, like, a whole bunch of tracks mixed over it. And, like, people do that.
10:26
Case
I did.
10:27
Dan
And that is the beautiful thing about the Internet, is that we can contextualize music in all sorts of different ways. And where it's like, I learned about this band or this artist through watching amvs on YouTube or something like that. Yeah, I think that's so cool. And then it's just like, you have. And then you just have so many different sort of layers to the experience of how you come to meet an artist or you come to meet a work, especially when tying it back to the idea of a Superman theme. There's so many different ways that you can meet some sort of piece of music as you go through life.
11:02
Case
Yeah. So let's talk about these works, and we'll talk about the work that it's associated with, like, the specific iteration of Superman. And I know not all of you have listened to or watched all these. I've only seen some of the episodes of some of these shows anyway, so it's not like, where we need to go deep on all that, but we'll talk about the context of theme, like, what it's coming from. And we might as well just go chronologically on this one, since otherwise, I think there's insane. And also, we need. We're either going chronologically or reverse chronologically. We're not doing jumping around. So we're going to open with a radio show. And I put that on the list, thinking that in my head, I was like, oh, yeah, there's definitely a theme.
11:41
Case
And I don't like when I then actually queued up an episode, I was like, oh, wait, there isn't. It's just really a narrator, and then there's backing track, but it's not a general one. It's specific to the episodes that bleed in to, here's the plot for this episode kind of stuff, because it was a radio show and there's a lot of just incidental music that they put in the back. So I put it on the list, but there's not really much to say. It's really just faster than a speeding bullet. Once they got to that whole narration, because the radio show, it took a while for them to actually get to that point. It was like a couple of years before they had the copy down to the tightest version that we all now know and associate with superhero.
12:21
Dan
Yeah. What I do find fascinating about theme, though, is I commented this on the document. I was like, it feels more like Batman orchestration. There's so much more of an ominous tone that the orchestrations of the incidental music takes. And I think that just might be indicative of, like, the era that it lived in Batman. I feel like from an orchestration standpoint, a lot of the angle went more pulp as the years went on. Like, they took the elements of the pulp incidental music and sort of wove it into the fabric of who Batman was as a pulp detective character. Meanwhile, you have Superman as more like a pulp fiction character. And not necessarily. Not figuring out exactly what that character would be.
13:11
Dan
I mean, it's more like, as this sort of described in the radio thing is, like it was more a symbol of the oppressed rather than necessarily, like, truth, justice in the american way, and which was kind of like the main arc of the. Or the identifying themes of the character over the last, like, 75 years that it existed. Like, the first 25 were just like, no, this dude is just a champion of the oppressed peoples and kind of comes from working class origins, even though he is incredibly, like, he's one of the luckiest dudes in the world in the sense that he just, like, by sheer happenstance, he happens to fall on a planet that gives him superpowers.
13:55
Case
Yeah, we recently talked about action comics hash one on the show. And one of the things that was really interesting to look at, there was that. There's this recurring theme of he doesn't want people to, like, see references in the news about Superman. He just wants to do the good and have it be kind of in the background. And there's this air of mystery that was part of Superman when he was created because he's so different from everything that had come before him in terms of, like, what type of hero? You know, it's. It's a science hero. Like, it's not even like a gift of God or, like, of the gods or magic. Like, it's just like, oh, no. Ants are super strong. Grasshoppers can leap really far. This is a weird miracle of science that is here to help.
14:34
Case
Like, literally, it's on the first page of action comics that they're like, how does his powers work? Oh, science ants. Weirdly making him more like Spider man than I think I realized.
14:44
Dan
Yeah, that's actually true.
14:45
Case
But you're right. Like, the earlier stuff is more of this sort of mysterious kind of element as opposed to the more explosive stuff we get later.
14:54
Matt
Yeah, totally. And I said this in my notes too, like, this, though, from the beginning, in accordance with what Dan was saying about it being kind of more dramatic and, like, ominous. Like, this has the capital D drama that we associate with Superman themes. Right? Because all of them are dramatic. I mean, that's probably the guarantee of a Superman theme, even from the more modern ones, is like, there's this buildup, there's release. There's this kind of plotting nature to it as you're kind of almost going through a narrative. And it fits well to this voiceover. I think that I more remember this theme because I remember those intros of the radio show when I would listen to them with my father. But not so much the actual instrumentation. Listening to this and trying to hear it through the narration, like, it's not super clear.
15:40
Matt
It's fine. It's definitely not meant to be a theme. It's more meant to be, I think, composition and guidance for the opening of the show than the rest of the show itself.
15:50
Case
J Mac, do you have any thoughts on the radio show stuff faster than a speeding bullet?
15:54
Jmike
No, that's all. I always remember this because I used to spend these summers with my grandmother. She used to take me to the library all the time, and we used to listen to these.
16:05
Dan
Oh, wow.
16:06
Jmike
Amongst, like, the Frank Sinatras and all the other stuff that she always makes me listen to. But she's like, our old library used to have the cassette tapes, copies of these. And I was like, wow, this is pretty cool. It's super old, and it sucks, but.
16:20
Case
This is pretty cool.
16:23
Jmike
Well, as I got older, I came to appreciate it well, and this is.
16:25
Case
What we're talking about. Like, context based appreciation of the next.
16:30
Matt
Theme that we're gonna go to after this, the Fleischer cartoon. Like, that is all context for me. Like, my love of this theme is 100% context because I. And for your youngins, like, dan might not remember these things called VHS cassettes. They were like tape, but they had video on it.
16:46
Dan
Oh, come on. I was in the VHS era, but, like, I was in the era of millennials, where everything was in the middle. I was, like, in between everything from, like, they would teach you how to do type. They had typing classes in school, and you had, like. And you had, like, VHS tapes to play and cassette tapes to play music and VHS tapes to play videos. But then all of a sudden, boom, Internet happened, and suddenly MySpace was a thing.
17:20
Matt
Right, exactly. But, like, the Fleischer cartoon, all of.
17:24
Case
A sudden, those dance notes and dvd.
17:28
Matt
But, yeah, but no, the Fleischer cartoon. Like, I had a bunch of them on vhs. I would watch them on loop. As a kid, I had an early love for Superman, though he's not, and I've said this on the show before, not one of my favorite heroes. He's a hero. I do like. And, like. And it's tied to, look, we're not going to get into my credibility as a superhero lover because I'm not going to fight for Hal Jordan again. I'm tired of fighting that battle. He's the best Green Lantern, and that's it anyway. But no, seriously, the Fleischer cartoon is just so ingrained in my brain. Like, the early scene in one of the first episodes where there's, like, a mad scientist and, like, the electrodes, and he's like. And Lois kidnapped and, like, I just.
18:07
Matt
I picture all of that listening to this because I just. I watched those cartoons so much. And while, again, it's not my favorite, it's the one that I think I remember the most strongly because I have that childhood association with it before any other version of a Superman, anything.
18:21
Case
Yeah. Before we go too far onto it, I do want to give credit. There wasn't really anyone to credit for the radio show, but for the Fleischer cartoon theme, it's by Sammy Timber. And then uncredited was Winston Sharples and Lew Fleischer, who composed this. And, Matt, I think you're totally right in that. This is, like the real prototype for all the Superman themes to come after. You know, this is the one that set the tone. Like, I remember, I think it was Paul Dini or may have been Bruce Timm one of the commentary tracks for the animated series talked about how the secret to a superman theme is that you have horns that say Superman.
18:54
Dan
I was gonna say it. I was gonna say it. I was like, does anybody else hear Superman every single time you listen to a Superman themes?
19:03
Case
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Like, if it's a good one, it has that. Or. And there one we'll talk about later. There's an inversion of it, but, like. But yeah, the horns here, it's like Superman. Like, you can hear it in the horns, but again, they don't have the words. And I think that's where you get really strong themes that, like, that sells the emotionality of it all. Like, it. It really resonates in a way that doesn't require language, for sure.
19:26
Matt
Well, and like, also, and I hinted at this before, this set the standard for strings and horns equaling Superman, like, musically, from every other theme after this just about has a version of that. They may invert it or subvert it or maybe even do more electronic versions of them, but they are there and they are required. I mean, even obviously, the incredible theme for the show, composed by Jeff Moonan has a synthetic version of those things, right? Like, they are. It's an electronic version of what Superman theme should have. And, like, I think that, like, I always knew that in the back of my head, just, like, the horns yelling Superman thing. But I don't know that I ever vocalized it or heard someone vocalize it until, like, today. And I'm like, oh, yeah, of course.
20:07
Jmike
That makes perfect sense.
20:09
Dan
People are hearing this too, right? I'm not just going insane, right?
20:13
Case
And I will say, of all themes that we're going to talk about today, this is the most, like, chest puffing out, like, when I'm doing yard work and I'm, like, doing something particularly hard, like, you know, carrying, like, a heavy bag of, like, of compost or moving mulch around or anything like that. That's the. This is the song that I put in my head being like, I think.
20:31
Jmike
My interests have changed over the years because it was this one and the John Williams one, like, oh, man, these are great. Then I heard one later on, if we're gonna get to it. I was like, I think I changed my mind.
20:44
Dan
Interesting.
20:45
Case
I'm just saying that, like, this is a really big, strong. Like, normally, most of these themes are like there's a subtitle on it of Superman's march or something to that effect. It's considered a march. And I think that this one is really the most, like, superman as, like, a strongman type as opposed to some of the other ones will eventually become more of, like, superman as a savior or a messianic figure. This is one where it's just like, you could see him as, like, a circus performer coming out and lifting up the craziest, heaviest weights, like juggling elephants or some shit like that.
21:15
Dan
I can totally, I can picture it in my head just, like, hearing the, and, like, him just going, ha, look at this. These are actually just balloons, but look at this.
21:31
Case
Or do the good trick of having the weights. You'd have people come up and try to lift it and no one can until you have one person. And it turns out that it was a magnet.
21:38
Dan
All it reminds me, there's a, I've been weird tangent. My whole house has been going through one piece. And there is this one weapon that USopp the sniper uses. It's Usopp's 10,000 kilogram hammer. And it is just like two magnets that kind of are, like ten pounds only. And so it seems super big, and it's just like, and the balloon pops and then all of a sudden, you see the two magnets on there just, like, makes me think of that, really. And I guess maybe that speaks to the whole idea of everybody's kind of, like, pulling all of these very pulpy, circusy type influences into their, and weaving it into the fabric of their hero storytelling, which I think is really fascinating.
22:25
Dan
It's just like everybody seems to be, even when we don't think we are, we're pulling from all the same sort of sources that have entertained us for so many years.
22:35
Case
Yeah. So why don't we move on to the next one, which is the George Reeves themes or, like, theme for the George Reeves Adventures of Superman show, which, so it's credited to Leon Klatskin. It's really similar to the Fleischer one, but it's not the same. It's, like, subtly different at a few spots and then there's narration that kind of drowns it out, which by definition, I think that makes it a less effective Superman theme.
22:58
Dan
Yeah, I would agree with that. Although, I mean, like, I mean, in some cases, people would probably of a certain age would argue, like, this was my Superman. And I think they would be. I think as soon as they would hear that theme, they'd be like, oh, I know exactly what, like, something that we've always seen, but it's just like you always experienced, we experience it in a different way in the sense of, like, that was what was happening at the advent of television, like, these kinds of serials.
23:23
Dan
And I'm like, I wonder what I think I'm trying to get into the headspace of, like, I wonder what it was like to experience that for the first time for people who might not necessarily have seen the Fleischer cartoons but, like, suddenly came into the era of television with this sort of presence of theme.
23:42
Matt
I mean, I love the George Reeves show and, like, I grew up watching it because on Nick at night, they always played it, like, on weekends and stuff. Stuff. And, like, my dad loved, like, my love of Superman comes from my father who grew up loving Superman and, like, saw, you know, of course, the Christopher Reeve Superman Night, which we'll get to in a bit. But, like, but for me, I associate more with this show the visuals than the sound. Right, right. Because of the Foley and sound effects. And also, like, my favorite thing about the show, and I've said this, I think on here before, if not just the case in passing, is the compilations of George Reeve just busting through walls to be Superman.
24:17
Matt
They're amazing, like, those collections and, like, because, like, how do you show how powerful Superman is back then? Will you build a bunch of styrofoam walls and just have him bust through them? And, like, it didn't matter how much soot he got all over himself. Like, he never broke character. He always, like, delivered. And, like, that. The visual element of the show stands out more to me than this theme. It's, it's fine. I mean, you're right, it's very similar to Fleischer. But, like, I just, it is not, I don't associate it with the memories of the show. Those kind of memories stand on their own.
24:45
Case
Yeah. Likewise, the narration, I think I remember better than the actual theme. When I think back to the opening of the show, like, even now, like, I just listened to them right before we started recording. And I'm still, I'm like, I know they're different from the Fleischer one, but it's like, in very small ways, it's very similar to later ones we're going to talk about that are dealing with the influence of the John Williams score. And in this case, it's just like, all right, well, there's a few notes that are different here, and then it obviously drops down so that you can hear the narration going over it. That's doing the classic. Faster than speedy bullet, more powerful than locomotive, able to leap tall, building single bound. Look up in the sky. It's a bird, it's a plane, it's Superman. Yeah.
25:19
Matt
Battle, which is in, like, everything after this, too, right?
25:23
Case
Yeah. So I don't have that much to say. Besides, there's a soft kind of spaceiness to the opening. There's like a Starfield in the credits. And the music sounds like. It's like. I don't want to say it's like a harp, but it's something kind of like that. It's like a softer string before we get into the more the horn section. That's straight from the Fleischer stuff.
25:41
Dan
Almost like a precursor to Star Trek to some degree.
25:44
Case
Yeah, a little bit like that. I was thinking, and I don't know, off the top of my head, the Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers kind of musical scores, I can't think. But I know Star wars is derived from that, from a conceptual level. So I wonder if this was just the way of conveying science fiction.
25:59
Dan
Oh, yeah, yeah. That could be true.
26:00
Matt
Yeah.
26:01
Case
And I don't know. So I don't want to go too deep on that one. But it caught me immediately. As soon as I heard it and I saw the Starfield, I'm like, this. All that also reads space.
26:08
Dan
I think more often than not, when we have those sorts of cues of, like, when we have a specific chord progression that somebody plays, I think there is very. Again, the whole idea of sense memory that I think there is definitely a very peculiar and particular thing that comes to mind when any certain chord progression plays. So, like, when you have some sort of, like, curious sounding chord progression, it's almost always associated with some sort of scientific advancement, scientific achievement, space, all that kind of stuff, where it's just kind of like this inquisitive nature to it to some degree.
26:45
Case
So why don't we move on to the new Adventures of Superman, the cartoon from the sixties.
26:49
Jmike
This feels like watching an episode of super friends.
26:54
Case
Yeah, it's very different from the rest. So this one's by John Gart, although he's credited as John Marion, which. Wow. Yeah. Super friends. Or, like, space Ghost, or, like, the Galaxy trio, the Hercules.
27:08
Jmike
Meanwhile, the Justice League.
27:10
Dan
You could tell that all of those cartoons by Hanna Barbera were not only influenced by, like, mod culture and all that kind of stuff, but, like, Neil Hefty's theme for the 66 Batman show and where kind of, like, it's weaving together, like, very, like, quote, unquote modern elements of pop music of the time to be, like, really, like, hip and jive to appeal to the kids.
27:37
Matt
Yeah, this one, and I think this is probably kind of unanimous amongst everyone here, is kind of, like, my least favorite, but it's serving its purpose. Right. Like, this was clearly designed in the vein of super Ghost. Super ghost. Sorry, space Ghost and. And Birdman and all of that stuff. Like, to just kind of have this kind of hokiness to it, this cheesiness, which is also pretty inherent in Superman. Right. Like, there's a little, like, wink and nod in most Superman early stuff at least. Like, it does get darker and more serious for short times, but, like, there's always kind of a weakened nod. He is the strongman. He is the, like, the handsome, you know, hair curled kind of, like, pompous superhero. Like, that's. The pomp is part of it, and that's here, but it's more performative.
28:18
Matt
It's designed to, like, get kids excited in the same way. Like, even Gi Joe and Ninja Turtles and stuff that came after.
28:23
Dan
Right.
28:24
Matt
Did the same. It's of that ilk.
28:26
Dan
Exactly.
28:27
Case
Yeah, Matt, you're entirely right on. Like, there's always a wink built into it. Like, Superman is, like, one of his iconic ways of looking at Superman is him winking at the audience. Yeah, yeah, and. Yeah. Like this one. Like, mm.
28:37
Jmike
Okay.
28:37
Case
So again, obviously, if it has lyrics, I'm gonna think it's probably a lesser Superman theme. But I was. When the chorus comes in and they're like, superman, the man of steel, I was like, what the fuck is this?
28:51
Matt
It's just kind of, like, implied horns. Not all out singing Superman. Like, that's just. That's the difference.
28:57
Dan
Contrary to that, you have the Spider man theme at the same time, which is interesting is that in that, like, it almost seems like that Spider man theme is so inherently tied to that character, which is.
29:10
Matt
And the lyrics.
29:10
Dan
Yeah. Which is really. Which is really interesting because I think they're trying to go for the same kind of feel in the way that they're trying to describe Superman.
29:18
Matt
Yeah, for sure. And that's true.
29:20
Jmike
Right.
29:20
Matt
Cause, like, we do. We sing the Spider Man. Spider man. Like, we love. Like, as a society, I've loved that song. Whereas this one, which is doing a very similar thing, I kind of repulsed against. I was like, this isn't Superman. What is this nonsense?
29:32
Case
Yeah, but I think that speaks to the nature of or, like, the differences between the two characters. Like, while Spider man benefits from the degree of anonymity that, like, a full body costume has. So you could imagine anyone under the costume, and it doesn't really require anything like that. It still feels like a more specific idea than where Superman, I think, is so broad as a concept. Like, that's why I really respond to him not having lyrics, because it should just sort of translate to hope and optimism and all the emotions you want to invoke with Superman, but you don't need to say it exactly. It should transcend words.
30:07
Matt
Yeah, that makes sense.
30:08
Case
Yeah. So that said, we haven't talked about the new Adventures of Superman cartoon yet on the show. We're going to at some point, and it's just thoroughly of its era, without a doubt. And this is probably the one where you can start to see Superman being molded into formats that are existing at the time and trying to make him feel like the other cartoons of the day so that he doesn't feel weird in that space. And we'll see that again in other stuff we're going to talk about. But this is probably the first time where it's really trying to fit Superman to a medium as opposed to him just sort of naturally. The radio show is where Superman got his start. Like, really? Like, I mean, yeah, sure. Comics. Yes, obviously, action comics number one. But, like, so much owes to the radio show.
30:52
Case
Most of our iconography goes back to that. And likewise, the Fleischer cartoons were groundbreaking at the time. No one had done cartoons like that before. They pitched a ridiculously high number because they were like, there's no way they'll green light this project. And then they got greenlit because Superman was such a cash cow at the time. So they're like, fuck, I guess we have to revolutionize animation.
31:09
Dan
Don't mind us.
31:13
Case
But here, this cartoon is very much just of that ilk of all the Hanna Barbera and whatnot, cartoons that were coming out in the sixties because all of a sudden they could make cheap cartoons that could just go on tv. It's just part of that. So it's okay. But it's definitely. It's my least favorite of this list, for sure.
31:29
Dan
Yeah.
31:30
Case
So then we get to the big one.
31:32
Jmike
Yeah.
31:33
Case
So we jump from the sixties to the seventies.
31:35
Dan
Weirdly enough, this actually isn't even my favorite John Williams orchestration or theme, I'm pretty sure. I don't. I think.
31:44
Matt
I mean, he's done so much, but that's not an understanding. There's so many different things.
31:50
Dan
It's like one of the most iconic. It's like when you think about, like, what melodic ideas or chord progressions and stuff are, like, not iconic because it's. It isn't. I guess it is to some degree iconic because, again, you're trying to picture the image with the audio of. Of the piece, but it's also very echoic in the way that we sort of just know it as the identifier for this is Superman. But I think my favorite John Williams themes, plural, are the ones that he wrote for Hook.
32:23
Matt
I mean, those are great. Those are great scores. So, I mean, I can see that. So we're obviously tiptoeing around it. This is the John Williams Superman score made by John Williams. Yeah, exactly.
32:34
Case
Yeah.
32:35
Matt
But I think, like, I'm with you, Dan. I think that, like, I think Star wars will always live a little bit above this just because of my love for that being a little larger than my love for Superman. But one thing I will say about this score specifically and this Superman theme is it still gives me chills on the climb every time.
32:54
Dan
Yes.
32:55
Matt
Star wars does not do that. I love Star wars and it warms my heart and it fills me with emotion.
33:00
Dan
Right.
33:00
Matt
But the, like, the slow build of this song is unparalleled to any other theme. Before and after and, like, that build, you know, I know it's coming. I know when the roller coaster is going to go over, and yet I'm like. Like, I'm gripping, waiting for it to go on that ride, like, every time. It's just. This is what I want from Superman themes. And you'll notice as we go through the list, my favorite Superman themes do this in different ways. But, like, every time I hear the song, I get chills. It's just one of the best constructed introduction themes in movie history.
33:34
Jmike
I feel like they're gonna come after us when they hear this. Oh, man. You said that this was better than the Star wars theme. They're gonna kill us.
33:46
Matt
Star wars fans have enough to complain about. They're not gonna bother those guys. Tv show coming out, they'll be mad about.
33:52
Case
They've got lots to watch about. But, like, I mean, it's such an interesting run for John Williams just in general because Star wars is the year before this. Then we've got. Then we got Superman, and then we have Indiana Jones, like, just right after that. And, you know, before that was jaws and, you know, there's like, all kinds of stuff right after that.
34:06
Dan
But, like, he is a master of taking pulp fiction and orchestrating it to, like, the nth degree to where, like, every single time a musical cue is played in any one of those movies, it feels like it is pulp on steroids.
34:22
Case
And I mean, that is a big part of, like, of seventies filmmaking, like, taking a lot of things that were conceits for either children or for, or just like, general audience, but, like, we're usually considered, like, pulpier and less, like, less sophisticated and putting this much more elegant touch on it all. And I think the music really does a good job of that because jaws people talk about, oh, it's a bog standard monster movie until you get into the interesting cinematography of Spielberg and the fabulous score from Williams. Star wars is Buck Rogers and flash Gordon and all these pulp sci-fi stuff. And then you get into the special effects that were groundbreaking at the time. And the amazing score by John Williams.
35:00
Case
Superman is the first big franchise property adapted into a blockbuster for the summer and starts a wave that we are so deep into now with the MCU and everything. And a big part of that was a charming performance by Christopher Reeve, Richard Donner's attention to detail in the composition and trying to make it fit different types of movies. And then this amazing score by John Williams. Indiana Jones is a doc Savage movie, but with a little bit more of an everyman type hero. And an amazing score by John Williams.
35:31
Matt
Yeah. And I think also ultimately, why I love this theme so much is like, there are some pop culture things that me and my father enjoy together, but for the most part, he's not a pop culture consumer. Like, we have, like Star Trek and Star wars, but Superman was one of those things that since I was a kid, like, I have a giant hardcover Superman. It's probably, I think maybe the first hundred issues or whatever it was like when they were doing those big hardcover, like, colored books of, like, it was a yellow Superman book, a red Batman book and then another one or whatever. And so, like, I just, I have that still. And it's like, that's so closely tied to this movie's theme. And like, the Fleischer stuff, like, all of that is interconnected.
36:08
Matt
And I think Superman for me is so tied to nostalgia in a way that a lot of other properties aren't. It might be also part of why I don't enjoy some of the modern stuff is because of that tie to it as well. It's hard to say, but this definitely, this theme was the start of, like, my love of music scores and pop culture and all of that mixing together, for sure.
36:28
Case
Yeah. So, I mean, this is going to then cast a shadow on everything we talk about, you know, like we said, like, the Fleischer one was the prototype. And you can see how very similar things are going on here. The change in sort of the public perception of Superman had occurred. At this point. He's no longer the big strongman. He now has way more of a messianic thing. There's lots of Judeo Christian imagery going on in the 78 Superman movie, but this is taking all those ideas that were like, oh, this is the good stuff that's going on in the Fleischer cartoon and making it into a theme that every single thing that we're going to talk about afterwards is either inspired by or in contrast to. So why don't we take the next one on the list is.
37:05
Case
I put some related properties on here just because it's worth talking about. So we've got the Supergirl movie theme, which is by Jerry Goldsmith and J Mike. I regret that we didn't really get into the music when were talking about the movie because I actually had notes about it. We just sort of. You just moved on.
37:26
Jmike
We were trying to, like, move on from that movie as fast as possible.
37:32
Case
I think were all, like, a little bit harsher on it, but the music is really good. I think the score is fantastic. Goldsmith has a big track record of trying to sound like other people in related franchises of things. And, like, here it sounds like. I mean, my notes are specifically. It doesn't sound like Superman, but it feels like it's in the same family. Which is exactly what you want for Supergirl.
37:52
Matt
Yeah, no, completely. And, like, you know, my notes is. It actually has kind of a hint of magical girl like transformation and which, like, I'm sketchy on the timeline for Sailor Moon and the like. But I feel like around the same time or maybe shortly after this, but, like, definitely lending to each other. And, like, I think that for something like Supergirl, it just felt like it could have been very easy to make this feel, like, wistful and feminine, whatever the fuck that means. And so, like, they don't do that here. They just make it feel special and magical and, like, otherworldly in a different way than the John Williams stuff does.
38:27
Dan
It's also interesting. I'm looking at his track record right now. It seems like he was always on also the cusp of just creating an unintentional Superman theme because he also did the scores for, like, a lot of big sports movies, like Hoosiers and Rudy. And, like, those have a lot of, like. I mean, like, those are more steeped in, like, Americana kind of like orchestrations, but to some degree, like, I think a lot of the pulpy themes are rooted in that as well. So when you hear things like the Hoosiers, some of the Hoosiers orchestration or some of the orchestration from Rudy in particular, I think I get more of, like, the Clark Kent, Cara Danvers kind of like alter ego sort of feel out of it.
39:16
Case
Yeah, I had to note that it feels very swashbuckling there. Like, it's more adventurous than. I think the William Superman score is. Like. That's more like Superman's here and he's going to do good stuff as opposed to we're going on an adventure with this character. And I think that's a really strong selling point for theme for that movie. I wish the movie had a strong thesis in one case.
39:37
Jmike
You didn't think they really had a strong thesis? What, sir?
39:41
Case
I think it was a wonderful candidate for another pass because there's some good ideas going on there. But, like, it was also half an advertisement for Popeyes.
39:48
Matt
Yeah.
39:49
Dan
Oh, my God.
39:50
Matt
Yeah.
39:51
Case
Yeah.
39:52
Jmike
I think invisible lightning monster.
39:56
Case
I mean, sons of sort of, like, in it. And, like, the idea of her traveling from Argo City and whatnot is more adventurous than the child coming. You know, like the Moses type elements of Kal El coming to Earth as a baby doesn't feel like an adventure so much as part of this larger, you know, poem. And, like, the element of not an adult, but like a teenager, like an active individual choosing to travel. There's more intent. And I think that the. I think the score here does a great job of conveying that. Shall we move on to the Ruby Spears Superman cartoon?
40:29
Matt
So, like, I love that this. And the next track, we're going to talk about it after it is just like a Pokemon evolution. More eighties version.
40:37
Dan
Like the most aggressive. Like.
40:41
Matt
Yeah, and like, this is a start of that. Right? Like, this feels eighties, but it still very much feels like John Williams here.
40:47
Case
Like, yeah, it's actually credited as John Williams on, like, as the composer. So even though there are. There's some differences, it's still considered just the same score.
40:55
Matt
Yeah, and it does feel like. And you mentioned this in your notes case, like, the X Men pilot that came out around the same time. And the GI Joe theme. And, like, all of those kinds of, like, even thundercats, like those kinds of shows. And, like, the epic eighties nature of those themes. You definitely feel that in this rework of this theme.
41:11
Dan
Yeah, I would agree with that. It's definitely, like, just all of the instrumentation choices are very, just, like, you can tell that, like, it was designed to be like, okay, we're gonna make as many action figures for this cartoon as possible.
41:26
Matt
Yeah.
41:27
Case
I don't know what instrument or whatnot it is, but there's, like, a light speed sound effect early in it, and, like, I don't know, like, I don't know how you make that sound effect specifically, but, like, it's, but you guys know what I mean?
41:40
Dan
Yes.
41:41
Case
Like, there's all these elements in there where this is the other one I was really thinking about, where we're really jamming Superman into a format that was currently popular. You know, like, this is the era of the, like I said earlier, the GI Joe stuff, like the X Men pilot, like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Like, this is the era where outsourcing to japanese studios was really big. Like, the opening credits are beautifully animated by Toei, you know, like, so it's so weird because, like, this is, this, you know, it has narration going over it that really emphasizes that he's for truth, justice in the american way.
42:13
Jmike
Make sure they hammer that in here.
42:15
Case
But it's japanese animation. Yeah, like, and I think that's such an interesting component to the series. And, like, I only recently realized that the Ruby Spears series was a thing because I had seen, like, some specials. Like, I saw the Wonder Woman episode when I was a kid and then, like, had never really watched it, never really processed it. And then I just saw, like, a reference to, like, oh, yeah, the cartoon series from 1989. I was like, wait the fuck? Because that would entirely have been in my wheelhouse, and I just missed it.
42:43
Case
So I watched it recently, and it's interesting about, like, where it is, like, where it falls and what they're trying to do with it and all that, but it's still, it just, it's still trying to jam Superman into a format as opposed to letting the character sort of define its role in the medium. It's the same, like, just like the Hanna Barbera sixties cartoon.
43:00
Matt
Yeah, 100%.
43:01
Case
But we should move on to the Superboy theme because the superboy theme is more of what we're talking about and more deliberately what we're talking about because at least with the Ruby Spears one, it's still, like, technically John Williams. They just added some more, like, sound effects and, like, they added a narrator to do the faster than speeding bullet, all that stuff, and giant explosions with the kents avoiding the rocket, which we're crazy, but then the superboy theme is. Okay, so it's by Kevin Kenner. I see some debate online about the season three. They changed theme a little bit. And it's an uncredited change, so no one knows exactly who did the remix. But this feels like a royalty free version of the John Williams score combined with, like, 1990. Specifically 1990 pop.
43:42
Matt
Yeah, I mean, this is what Dan was pointing out earlier. Like, this has, like, the electric drum. Like, do do do. Like, you would hear Miami Vice or anything of that. Like, steeped in eighties.
43:51
Dan
Exactly.
43:52
Case
Yeah, yeah.
43:52
Matt
And, like, it's dripping with that. And, like, look, I know y'all have talked about the Superboy stuff and, like, it's hit or miss. But I like how honestly, it is itself in this moment. Like, it's not trying to be Superman. It's trying to be a younger, hip Superman, which is essentially what Superboy was for this era and this show. And so, like, I respect that theme fits the tone of the show, which is like, what if Superman was a little goofier and a little more, like, immature and kind of focusing on what a young Superman would be like Superboy. And I think it works. It's definitely cheesy as hell. But again, there's an air of honesty in the cheesiness that comes with Superman, which I appreciate.
44:35
Dan
It makes the right choices for the kind of thing it is trying to be for the right audience.
44:40
Jmike
Not too serious, just nev Hokie pouring a ton of eighties.
44:48
Case
Shake.
44:48
Jmike
Yeah, like the Powerpuff Girls cartoon. You're adding all the ingredients.
44:53
Case
Yeah, but I do think it works. But it does feel like it's constrained by the production values of the show. Like, everything about that show is a lot of great ideas, a lot of cool ways of implementing things but they just didn't have the budget. Then let's move on to the next live action interpretation of Superman on the big screen. Pardon me? On the small screen tv. Tv is what I'm talking about.
45:13
Matt
Tvs can be pretty big these days.
45:15
Case
But, yes, they're pretty big now, but they're not quite. Which is the Lois and Clark theme, which is by Jay Gruska.
45:22
Dan
Oh, interesting. Jay Gruska did that. That's cool.
45:24
Matt
Yeah, it's this show. So, I mean, I say this in my notes. It's too bad that Dean Cain is a giant douchebag now. But at the time, I loved that show and I liked how cheesy and soap opera it was. I had a huge, like everyone else, I had a huge crush on Terry Hatcher, like everybody did at the time.
45:41
Dan
I must make the point, because CJ would kill me if he didn't make the point. He says that this is probably the best Lois Lane, that in his opinion.
45:51
Matt
I mean, I think it's one of. Yeah, I would say that. That she did one of the best versions of modern Lois Lane, for sure.
45:58
Dan
Yeah.
45:59
Matt
And I would hate to anger CJ as well. He is a man that I love. But, like, I think that this is not a great theme. Is it good for this show and the show was designed for. Yes. This goes back to what case has been saying. This is another attempt to fit the format. This is a soap opera y, romantic Superman show that centers around Lois and Clark and their relationship as much as Superman. And this is one of the earliest times that we see that. Right. It's pretty standard now to feature Superman's personal life as well as being a superhero. But in the old cartoons, no one wanted to see that. They thought everyone was like, oh, I just want to see him be Superman.
46:36
Matt
And so I appreciate what this show did for that and showing that relationship, but this theme is just like. It doesn't have the same oomph that a lot of the other themes before this have. It still has the strings and the horns, but, like, it's just not the same, like, power that the other themes have had.
46:51
Dan
Right. Do you find. I found it interesting. Do you think it takes more cues from the love theme that Williams wrote for Lois and Clark than necessarily the main, like, I am Superman, and I feel like that would make a lot more sense because since it is Lois and Clark, the adventures of Superman, it almost seems like they're really trying to play up that the Superman aspect of the whole thing is sort of the secondary bit. We want to focus on Lois and Clark, really. So we'll take a theme that is more inspired by that.
47:24
Case
Yeah, it's good to bring up the love theme because we aren't really going too deep in, like, the broader scores on some of these pieces. Like, obviously, if it's a movie, there's lots of songs. There's not just the singular main opening theme song. And the love theme is fantastic. It's such a wonderful piece of music. It played at my wedding. So I think that's an apt point, at least in terms of structure. But I feel like looking at this theme, that it is just going through the motions in terms of trying to hit the right beats, technically. It's got the horns that I want for Superman thing. It doesn't have a narration over it. So it's all the check boxes that I'm looking for. It checks, but I don't feel like it really builds to anything.
48:04
Case
It kind of just feels like it's the love theme. If it was just you sampled the middle 30 seconds of it, as opposed to having any sort of build or any kind of climax to it, which is kind of a bummer because the show, I think this works for a lot of the show, which is that it was good for the time, but it's limited by what they could do on, like, network television and, like, what kind of show they're trying to build it for because it's trying to reach some very different audiences. Like, it's like superhero action and also like a. Yeah, a love story.
48:33
Dan
It almost seems like it's a proto CW show.
48:36
Matt
Yeah, absolutely. You are 100% correct, Dan. Yes.
48:40
Jmike
This where it all started. Oh, my God.
48:44
Dan
As a, as a strong defender of the CW shows, I am glad that it is here to pioneer the sub genre of aggressively normal to absolutely insane CW shows.
49:00
Case
Well, when we get to them, there will be plenty of CW love for us to have on this one. But I'd say rounding out the Lois and Clark stuff, it's fine. It's not my least favorite on this list, but it's definitely not my favorite, and it's not even on the top half. So why don't we move on to the animated series theme, which, as would befitting for most of the animated stuff, is by Shirley Walker, who did most of themes for the diniverse. This is my favorite.
49:30
Matt
The thing about the Superman, the animated series show, and we talked about this on the episode, I guessed it on where we talked about the show. And for the record, this is the first time I've been on this show with J Mike because when I was on the show earlier for that, you weren't here, you weren't around. But no, like, this is my Superman. This is my Superman show. This is my Superman theme. I have gotten to tell Tim Daley to his face that he is my voice of Superman. When I read the comic books, I hear his voice.
49:58
Dan
Yo, that's wild.
50:00
Matt
Which was so incredibly awesome to get to do. And he was, of course, lovely about it and took it as the compliment. I meant it. But this theme is a big part of that love. Like, again, talking about growing up and, like, being immersed. Like, I hear this song, I hear this march, and I see that opening, you know, vignette of Superman being Superman. It's just, it's the da da da like I love. Like it does the build that John Williams does, but in a different way. It's not as dramatic, but it still has the march. It still pumps you up. And I think it took an initial formula and did nothing but. But make it better and grow it into something that surpasses what it was trying to inspire from.
50:44
Dan
I'm gonna take a moment to acknowledge the absolute genius that is Shirley Walker because I feel like she took sort of musical identities that we had already familiarized ourselves with in the forms of both Batman and Superman and reinterpreted them to some degree where it still feels like it's maintains that the semblance of what the original idea was melodically and chord progression wise, but then adds an additional flavor of it that just. I don't know how to describe it other than it is just. It is different in the best possible way in the sense of like, it is a new shade of the same thing that I like, but it is a shade that makes it all the more endearing to me 100%.
51:36
Matt
I mean, we're not here to talk about Batman, but the Batman theme that she did, it's absolutely inspired by the Danny Elfman theme, but definitely is its own thing to the point where I used to confuse them and now they sound so different to me. But it's clearly she knows how to take inspiration without recycling it like some other themes have.
52:00
Dan
Exactly.
52:00
Matt
She absolutely makes it her own, like you said.
52:03
Dan
Yes.
52:03
Case
Yeah. And I think especially here because, like the Batman, the animated series just in general, was kind of sort of being built off of the, off of, like, the initial Tim Burton Batman films. Like, so there's, you know, a lot of style elements that are, like, carried over from it. And even though they're their own standalone works, it was in at that time when, like, cartoons were just being built off of pre existing movies all the time. And so there's an element of that there and that theme holds closer, whereas this one is trying to be way more distinct. I mean, obviously the Williams score heavily influences this, but you can really see that there's just something really special about it. The beats where, again, contextual.
52:48
Case
So looking at the opening credits, when you see young Clark, like, running and then it cuts to him flying as Superman, it's like the way the music just sort of underscores that it's so perfect. And then we get some nice elements going on. It's more complex than a lot of these scenes. There's different sections of it that is trying to tell you the story of what the show is about and the section that's the lowest theme of it all, where it gets a little bit softer and a little bit more introspective. Just wonderful stuff. And the music of the show is great. This theme, like, just tells you, like, oh, this show is going to be Superman, but it's all the best types of Superman stuff. And it's going to be in a way that isn't talking down to you.
53:27
Jmike
I'm going to break formation here and be like, oh, for me, I'm going to catch a lot of heat for this. But for me, this was just. Okay.
53:37
Matt
Interesting.
53:38
Jmike
I was like, oh, that's no heat online. I'm talking about this. We're like, oh, my gosh.
53:45
Matt
I can't control the Internet, unfortunately. Sorry, I can't help you there.
53:48
Jmike
Yeah, we don't have $50 billion anyway. Yeah, this is just. Okay. It was a good thing, but this is definitely not out of my top five.
54:00
Case
Yeah, okay.
54:01
Jmike
I'm sorry, case.
54:05
Matt
It goes back to what we talked about before. Right. That your initial, like, it sounds to me, Jay Mike, a lot of your impact for Superman and media has come from, like, the John Williams stuff.
54:14
Jmike
And, like, well, it's crazy because I grew up watching this, like, every day after school. Yeah, I grew up watching this every day after school. I was like, oh, okay, Superman's on. And then, like, Justice League happened and Justice League unlimited, and I was like.
54:26
Case
Oh, this is so cool.
54:27
Jmike
I was like, oh, you know, weirdly.
54:30
Dan
Enough, I think the Justice League still takes, it takes cues from the Superman theme to some degree, but it just feels more, like, regal in the approach.
54:40
Case
Yeah, yeah. Like, you're like, well, it feels like the knights of the Round table that Superman is like the King Arthur for to a certain degree. One I didn't put on this list, but I want to shout out is the Superman Batman?
54:53
Matt
Yeah, right.
54:54
Case
When they were teammates, which I think does such a wonderful job contrasting those two elements because it has this dark somberness to it. And then it'll Superman again, context the images. When Superman shows up on the screen, it all of a sudden explodes with horns. Take you away from the Batman like this, more like. Like cellist.
55:17
Dan
I forgot they did, like power hours to some degree on the kids wv. And like, that had its own distinct theme.
55:24
Matt
Yeah.
55:25
Dan
Oh, but I remember it.
55:26
Case
I'm sad that I didn't put it here because I just didn't think to. Because I was trying to get all I was trying to think of as many Superman themes as I could, and I regret that I didn't mention it.
55:35
Matt
Yeah, I mean, I think. I think J Mike. It makes sense, though, that, like, it doesn't seem strange to me that this isn't your favorite only because, again, it's not only just identifying to the Superman media, but also there is a wealth of great superman themes. Like, we've talked about what our favorites are, but, like, I would say almost all of these are good to great. None of them are particularly awful. And so that makes sense to me. It's like. It's like picking your favorite Beatles track.
56:00
Jmike
Right?
56:01
Matt
Like, for the most part or your favorite queen track. They're all great, but there are some that are better, you know? And I think that you can say that of themes of Superman because if you're trying to create something for this character, there is that kind of next level feeling to it.
56:15
Dan
Yeah, exactly.
56:16
Case
Someone out there thinks that Obla da is their favorite song.
56:20
Matt
Those people are wrong.
56:21
Dan
But it's fine.
56:24
Matt
Come for me, I guess.
56:27
Dan
Beatles heads.
56:28
Matt
I will say, though, the next song that we're gonna discuss is probably one of my least favorites, and there's a reason for that.
56:35
Case
Yeah. So why don't we move on to that? So next up is just as different as you could get. So next up, we're talking about the smallville theme, which is actually the song save me by Remy Zero.
56:47
Dan
Right?
56:47
Matt
Like, so here's. Here's the thing, right? Like, and we're going to talk about this in another episode, but, like, pop culture and Superman go hand in hand. There have been tons of songs about Superman or about Superman's characters in Superman's world. This is, like, one of the only times I can think of where a main show has. Uses the pop song as a main theme. And this also is very in the ilk of the CW stuff that comes later after this and has even paid homage to this since. But, like, I like Remy Zero. I think they're a fine band. They're not anything groundbreaking from what I can recall of their discography. But, like, the song invokes Superman. But I think it's my list favorite because, like Kay said earlier, when Superman songs have lyrics, they just don't feel as powerful.
57:29
Matt
They feel less dramatic, they feel more rote. And it's fine for what, this kind of high school drama they were trying to tell. It fits the mood. I just don't genuinely like it that much.
57:40
Dan
Right. Yeah. I found it very funny that they. That this song played when in Crisis on infinite Earths when Tom Wellings Clark showed up.
57:52
Matt
This is very interesting.
57:53
Dan
I was like, what are we doing here? What are we doing?
58:00
Case
I mean, it makes sense that they chose a song like this for this show because Smallville, like, you know, the rules that the producers had was no flights, no tights. You know, it was very much trying to be, like, an un Superman show. And so this is like a Dawson's creek.
58:16
Dan
Yes.
58:16
Case
What if Superman lived in Dawson's Creek?
58:20
Matt
Yeah.
58:21
Case
And it is a, you know, it is a predecessor to the CW stuff. Like the later seasons get batshit wild and, like, are full, you know, fully fit into the CW world. Like, just perfectly fine. But the original idea is like, all right, well, we're gonna do a show that is just Roswell or Buffy or, again, Dawson's Creek, but it's gonna be using Superman property stuff. And, you know, it's called smallville. So that, like, if you're not a Superman fan or, like, or rather, if you're a Superman hater, you might not know that it's a Superman thing until you start watching it, and then they're hoping, like, you might be hooked by on it by that point. So, like, it's fine. The song, I think, is fine.
58:55
Case
I liked it enough as a theme song for it in that it is trying to be Superman just happens to be in a WB teen drama as opposed to a Superman show.
59:04
Jmike
I feel like this was fine. He's like, this is fine for that era. Every show had, at the end of every show, there was a pop song or something going off in the background. So it all kind of went together for theme of the show for that week. I remember watching the huh. Of the show when it first came.
59:22
Dan
Yeah.
59:23
Case
It's kind of crazy that we haven't talked about Smallville yet on this show. There's all these, there's so much material. We're almost 100 episodes in, and we haven't talked about Superman one yet. So much. Superman won the comic, not the movie.
59:41
Dan
He got 100 years worth of material to work with.
59:43
Jmike
That's very true.
59:44
Dan
Yeah. You've got a big rabbit hole to go down.
59:47
Case
Yeah. So, I mean, smallville. Smallville was the introduction for a lot of people to like the larger Superman mythos. Like, it was really popular. It ran for what, like ten seasons. Like, you know, it did its job. Exactly what it.
59:58
Dan
Biggest deal out of the Green arrow on that show.
01:00:01
Matt
Yeah.
01:00:02
Case
Yeah.
01:00:02
Matt
One of the earliest times that he kind of became mainstream. Besides the Justice League cartoon, which, of course, for me, will always be my Green arrow. Will be.
01:00:11
Dan
Yeah, that's true.
01:00:11
Matt
Will be that version.
01:00:12
Dan
Yeah.
01:00:13
Case
Yeah. But, you know, Arrow wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for him. Always.
01:00:16
Dan
Right, right.
01:00:17
Case
I mean, it's kind of crazy. Like, it did so many things. It introduced me to Alan Richardson, who I love, and now he's.
01:00:24
Dan
Yeah. Nice.
01:00:25
Case
Jack Richard.
01:00:27
Matt
It's wild.
01:00:28
Case
You know, I think. I think it was exactly what it needed to be in terms of being like, all right, we're gonna start seeding superhero stuff into formats that didn't previously do it so that the. You know, it. Like the w. Small Smallville walked so that the CW Supergirl could run or fly. And like, that's, you know, like I said, it did its job, but it was also trying to be a stealth show. It was trying to be like, no, it's not Superman. We swear. It's just green meteor rock. It's not kryptonite.
01:00:55
Matt
That's what they also brought in, like.
01:00:57
Jmike
18 different flavors of kryptonite, like, every other week.
01:01:03
Case
But, yeah, why don't we move on to the next one? Which is, like, getting back to a proper Superman score. And that is. We're talking about the man of Steel score by Hans Zimmer.
01:01:13
Matt
Yeah, this one. So man of Steel gets a lot of hate. And I know that both of you, Kaysen and J Mike fall kind of in the middle on it. You don't hate it. And I think that's the kind of the proper level headed reaction which the Internet never has. Like, I will say that Henry Cavill is an incredible superman, regardless of the material he had to work with. He was incredible. And it paved the way for all of his other strong jawed characters that he got to play. Like, Geralt now in the Witcher. But, like, Hans Zimmer is a talented composer, but he has a bit. He has a schtick. He is. He's a. He's the synth guy, and that's fine. Like. And I love his score. His Wonder Woman theme is probably one of my favorite wonder Woman themes.
01:01:56
Dan
That's true.
01:01:56
Matt
Ever. Like, it just goes so damn hard. And man of Steel does the same. And I think what it gets right is the dramatics, which we talked about earlier, and it absolutely has the horns and the strings, but it's all synthetic. It's all, like, designed to feel a little alien, which. Which is interesting. Right. Because a lot of themes previous are very familiar. Feel very. I understand this. Whereas this is meant to feel a little more alien, a little stranger, and a little more ominous. And I think for the movie, we got love or hate. It fits and it works.
01:02:33
Dan
I think there is a better Superman movie within the context of this theme.
01:02:38
Matt
Yes.
01:02:38
Dan
Because the piano motive, it was very clearly designed to evoke clark kent and the drummy kind of themes. Like, I remember watching behind the scenes videos of, like, oh, were trying to evoke the epicness of superman and the percussiveness. So we got, like, 50 of the best drummers into the same room to do the drums for this.
01:03:03
Jmike
Yeah. Because pharrell was one of them, too. They brought pharrell.
01:03:06
Dan
Yeah, pharrell was one of them. But I really, and this is something. This is something that you'll hear from me, especially towards the end when we talk about the last Superman theme, is that I think I gravitate a lot more in terms of favorite Superman themes to the ones that speak more to the man than actually the superhero. And to me, the piano theme is very much a precursor to what we hear on Superman and Lois in the sense of like, it is speaking a lot to more of what I wished this interpretation of Superman with Zack Snyder was aiming for, which was the man. And at the end of the day, it's just a dude who's trying his best and trying to get through the world. And that's what the piano theme evokes to me.
01:04:01
Dan
Then all of a sudden, it gets washed into the hole of a bajillion drums going, and that's great. I think that's cool. But we've heard a lot of that in terms of the rhythmicness of a Superman theme.
01:04:16
Case
Yeah, I think you nailed it on the piano, evoking Clark Kent and talking about how it sounds more alien. I have a note specifically that this is the one where the horns are there and they are saying something, but they are not saying Superman. They are saying Kal El. When you listen to it, you can hear Kal El. Kal El. Like, there's this. It feels like this person finding out they are very otherworldly to some degree. Yeah. And that percussiveness is him being forced to identify himself in this, like, frantic pace of the movie. Like, like I say, it's not a march, it's a sprint. That once those drums pick up, he's got to make a decision, like, which side is he on? Is he an alien?
01:04:59
Dan
And an interesting thing that I just noticed. And I'm like, oh, this is definitely what the motivic development was for this. For this film. Krypton's theme shares a similar progression to the kal el theme. And the da with the horns like it, instead of it going up, if I'm not mistaken, it goes, or it goes down in a different way because it was like, da or something like that. And it just. I think very clearly they were trying to weave more of. Of the kryptonian heritage into the Superman of it all. Yes.
01:05:39
Jmike
I'll be honest, this is my favorite Superman score.
01:05:44
Dan
Understandable.
01:05:46
Case
I totally can see that it does.
01:05:48
Jmike
But I had a real love hate relationship with this movie when it first came out, as case can very well verify. And the more we learned about a background, the history of everything that was happening at DC at that time. Yeah, because they came up with Earth one Superman. While this was big with venom, Steel was being done. And you see, like, what could have been. Yeah, we got man of Steel. But as for the music for all the men is this score is very. It's very enrapturing. It's very epic and iconic. And I'm like, wow, this was amazing.
01:06:25
Dan
There's such a better movie in there.
01:06:27
Jmike
Yeah, it's such a better movie in the score than the one actually came on the screen. But this is my favorite. Sorry, I love it.
01:06:34
Case
I mean, I think that there's a reason why this is not called Superman. This is called man of Steel, which obviously is a callback to his nickname, but also is going to evoke the 1980s relaunch of the character after Crisis on infinite Earths, where it's a new origin for the character. And all themes we're talking about, all the things we like about this are things that are in the movie, which is this entity, this child sent to Earth, coming to understand who he is and deciding at the end of the movie to be Superman. Like it's his origin story. And so as a theme for the origin of Superman, I think it works really well.
01:07:08
Case
I think that once he's an established character, it starts to lose that because it is about him making the choice to be Superman as opposed to having already decided to be Superman, which is what I feel like the John Williams score is.
01:07:20
Matt
And I feel like, look, Zack Snyder, take him or leave him.
01:07:23
Jmike
Right?
01:07:24
Matt
Like, I've loved stuff by him. I've hated stuff by him. But I think there is a care for this character in this movie somewhere. I think the problem is that he kind of gets lost in the minutia instead of focusing on the most important thing, which is he is a symbol for hope. Having a dark Superman story can work, but the hopelessness that's throughout the entire movie, I think, is what drags this down. And that hopelessness isn't in this theme or in the scoring. There are allusions to Clark and hope. And I think that if the movie had more of that, it would have been. It had a stronger impact than it did because there is good in this film. And I think this theme is a good example of where that is. And who knows, right? A lot of stuff goes into movies.
01:08:06
Matt
We don't know how much of it is Zack, how much of it is the. Is Warner Brothers, how much of it is whatever. But we definitely didn't get the movie that this theme led us to believe. And it's sad because it's definitely in there somewhere.
01:08:17
Dan
I also just really remember really loving the trailers to this, like, yeah. I was gonna say that I went to a midnight premiere of the Dark Knight rises and I had known prior that they were. We were gonna get a sneak peek of. Of this movie ahead of the. Of the Dark Knight rises. And I just remember sitting there in the theater, I'm like, oh, my goodness, they're gonna go all the way with this character because it, like, they did. They just. The imagery was so beautiful and, like, they used Gandalf's death theme to sort of evoke, like, this, like, this, like, really, like, balanced, textured feeling of like. Of like, what it might mean to take on the mantle of Superman. I'm imagining the trailer company did a really good job of saying, like, there's a really good movie in here, in this.
01:09:15
Dan
In this kind of, like, very messy, more Sci-Fi angle to Superman.
01:09:22
Jmike
The trailer starts off with a little kid running through the field and then he puts on the cape and he's standing there with his arms in the side and like, this is going to be amazing.
01:09:32
Dan
Yeah, exactly.
01:09:34
Case
And it's getting that piano theme that Dan talked about at that spot. Yeah. Like I said, it's really good for an origin, which means that it's really good for a trailer. Like, everything about it from the outset looks amazing. Again, Cavill is great. I think he looked the part perfectly. And I generally come down on man of Steel being a good Superman movie. I'm more positive towards it than I think a lot of people are. I think that its follow ups are the thing that kind of prevented from having the great legacy. I think if it had a really strong sequel, then you could look at it as being like, okay. Yeah, there's a couple bumps, but it's a pretty strong start to the franchise. And then, you know, it's like Spider man one to Spider man two.
01:10:16
Case
Like, but instead there's no Spider man two. It goes to Batman versus Superman.
01:10:20
Dan
Can you imagine the world where we got a man of Steel two? I feel like we would think about it so much differently than we do.
01:10:27
Matt
Absolutely. It's so common for, especially in comic book movies, for a later sequel to justify an earlier movie. We talked about this all the way back on another past when case and I did the Wolverine. It's like Logan made that movie better because it alluded to stuff from that movie that made the narrative through line stronger, even though a lot of Wolverine's solo stuff at that time had not been great. And I think that you're absolutely right. I think a man of Steel two that focused on him being Superman and coming to grips with that decision he made on general Zod and living with himself, and it inspiring him to do good instead of just being this dark moment would have given for a much better arc for this character instead of just yelling the name Martha.
01:11:07
Jmike
Why'd you say that name, man? Why'd you say that name?
01:11:13
Case
Anyway, one thing I do want to contrast this theme to is that Zimmer also did in all the Dark Knight scores. And, like, I think that there is a shared element of the Dark Knight score has this unrelenting, like, Batman will keep trying no matter what you throw at him, kind of feel to him like he's coming for you. He is a symbol of justice. He is coming, like, no matter what you put in his way, he's going to come at you like a train carrying a device that is evaporating all of the toxins in the atmosphere. He's coming for you.
01:11:45
Dan
And you know what the bummer is that Hans Zimmer actually did write a Batman theme, and they wove it into this fabric of Harvey Dent in the Dark Knight. And it plays a couple of times at Batman begins, a couple of times in the Dark Knight, and they don't use it at all in the Dark Knight rises. And I'm so sad about it because it's such a good Batman theme. And it would have been such a unique and interesting, like, if it had become more interwoven into those films instead of the. Instead of, like, leaning on the percussion heavy and, like, the rising two tone sort of motive that we know.
01:12:28
Dan
It would have been a much more fascinating development of that character, musically, much in the same way that I wish that the piano motive and the percussive interpolation of it once it sort of evolves in man of Steel, I wish it went somewhere and was taken in a different direction, but it's just like, man of Steel is a movie with so much missed potential that I am more angry about its missed potential than I am about the actual movie itself.
01:12:59
Matt
Fair assessment.
01:13:00
Case
Yeah. Well, because again, saying, if were to imagine a man of steel two, if that man of Steel two was then a continuation of theme, and you took all the stuff that's going on here and resolved it into a way where it's like, now, here is Superman, as opposed to the struggling individual who is. Is he human? Is he alien? Is he a God? That, I think, is the challenge of the man of steel theme that is being presented. And I don't think it has answer at the end. And I think that, like, a sequel theme would be so amazing because it's such a good foundation. But Zimmer wasn't really involved with later stuff anyway. So what? Why don't we move on? Because, like, I don't want it just to be a man of steel conversation at this point. But it's.
01:13:45
Case
But it is going to color it, because, like, the Zimber score was an attempt at not sounding like the bullying score, and then later works are then going to have to contend with the fact that people like both and particularly the next thing on the list, which is the supergirl tv show theme. And for those who don't remember Supergirl, when it first came out, they weren't. They were very coy on its relationship to the broader TC properties. It was distinctly set as not as part of the CW stuff at the time. It wasn't on the CW, for one thing. It was on the CB's. And so they never showed Superman and, like, he was in silhouette every time.
01:14:20
Case
And, like, it kind of has design elements that lead you to think it's kind of like man of steel and maybe it was a tv spin off of man of Steel. So I think there was a big push to make it like that. So the score, which is by Blake Neely, that was really good. I love. I think it's great.
01:14:34
Dan
Shouts to Blake Neely, man. He's been doing literally all of those scores for every single. For nearly, like, every single show on the CW, I'm pretty sure. And the fact that he created, not only did he do such a great job at creating such an identifiable theme for Chara Supergirl, that character, he's done that for Arrow, the Flash, even, like, a random super team, the Legends of Tomorrow, creating such identifiable themes for them. He has done such an excellent job at crafting what, to me, has become distinct musical interpretations of the DC comics characters.
01:15:17
Matt
No, you're absolutely right. I mean, I can hear the rolling orchestration of the Flash theme in my head while he's running. That sound is so iconic now to that version of Barry Allen. And, like, I love these shows. I'd never. I didn't see any of them through. Like, I dropped off halfway through most of the seasons except for Arrow. I think I've seen all of Arrow, but, like, supergirl, I, like, I was there premiere time. Like, I was excited. It looked really cool.
01:15:41
Case
The.
01:15:42
Matt
The actor playing Jimmy is someone I'd seen in other stuff. And so I was excited to see him in this new show. And, like, he's great. And he's so great in it. And, like, I love this interpretation of chara. It made me fall in love with Supergirl as a character that I never really had before. Admittedly, I hadn't read a lot of Supergirl's comics either, but this score is very much a fusion of what came before but still has the hope and the brightness that you especially relate to Supergirl as a character. And I think that's the strength of this theme versus a lot of the other ones.
01:16:13
Matt
It gets heavy and dramatic, like the classic themes, without feeling overbearing and dark, but it still has the horns and strings doing the heavy lifting and making it still feel like an homage to not just Zimmer but Williams as well.
01:16:28
Case
Yeah. I mean, there's a criticism that some people levy at the. At the CW show that it's more of a distaff counterpart to Superman than necessarily a Supergirl show. Like, there's a lot of elements that feel more like, oh, it's a Clark thing, but they've just made it Chara instead. And I think that's fair. And I think theme here, like, it's not at all like the Jerry Goldsmith, nor am I expecting it to, but it certainly feels like it's being based on the. On the big Superman stuff. Like, it's being based on the man of Steel and it's being based on the Superman 78 themes. And there's, like, a precociousness, like, there's like a bubbliness to it that I think is evocative of the character and how they've made Cara different than Clark in this, that I really like.
01:17:05
Case
This kind of sounds like the culmination stuff that I was talking about, although the character is slightly different than Superman, so, like I said, it bubbles a bit more than you would.
01:17:15
Dan
Chara, as a character, really hasn't had any sort of definitive interpretation in the comics either. They really kind of have Zeigdur and Zagdir in all different directions to some degree.
01:17:27
Case
Yeah, I think some fans would argue that there have been definitive ones, but the counterpoint I would have is that those definitive ones are nothing like the other definitive ones. She's had very strong takes in different series. The new 52 take was very strong in that it was this much more radical, almost namor type figure. Kind of like Marvel boy from Grant Morrison. She's not receptive to earth. She's traumatized by Krypton and kind of angry about it all, which all makes sense, but it's very different from the girl from the orphanage in the sixties and the seventies. She's actually kind of a cool, hip woman who has awesome outfits.
01:18:05
Dan
Yeah. And I feel like this in this show, it was almost like a synthesis of all those different facets of the character, because I think we did get that to some degree of, like, the challenge that she had to sort of wrestle with the loss of her home world and being consciously aware of it, while also at the same time, just realizing that she kind of just needs to move on with her life and sort of encountering the challenges along the way that had to deal with. Just like, she's living with an adopted family and she has a sister and a new mother and a new father, and they kind of understand their place in the world, and she doesn't really. And a lot of the course of the earlier seasons is her finding her place.
01:18:48
Dan
And then sort of the last few were sort of her being thrown challenges that sort of cause her to rethink about, like, what she initially sort of came into being as Supergirl. It sort of challenges her to take a really hard look at who she is in general and, like, what it means to be her as a hero and a person to the point, where do I dare? Are you going to go back and watch any of these? Are you going to see the end of the show, perchance?
01:19:20
Matt
At some point? But, I mean, if you have a point to make based on how it ends, I'm not going to be upset about it.
01:19:26
Dan
In the final episode, she makes the conscious choice to reveal herself as Kara Danvers to the world, as her being one and the same. It's kind of like the thing that has, like, it is the one thing that at the end of the. At the end of the series, kind of she realizes the last thing that's holding her back. And so in making herself one in the same, it's kind of just her showing herself finally, to the world as the totality of who she is as a being.
01:19:57
Matt
I mean, I think that it's no secret that when this show started, they couldn't show Superman because DC and Warner brothers were very much like, this can't exist. Cause we have a successful Superman thing that we're planning. And as that started to tank, they went, maybe should put Superman in this thing and try and fix it. And, like, so this theme, taking it back to the music side of it, sounding so much like a Superman theme, and this character being so much like Superman is clearly the creator, is going, I want to tell a Superman story, but I can't. So instead, why don't we take this character that's often overlooked or not portrayed well, or has had a diverse past and make her as stoic and important as Superman.
01:20:32
Matt
And I think while, yes, you can view it as, like, well, Supergirl isn't that important, so let's just make her like Superman. The misogyny side of it, which I'm sure is in there somewhere, you can also look at it as the opposite of. Well, no, actually, we're just making Cara center stage, something she's never really gotten to do because she, and talks about in the show, was always overshadowed by her cousin. And so, like, I love that aspect of it. I love it that she's front and center. This is probably one of my favorite versions of any of the super characters in this family. And I think this theme backs up that creation. And when we talk about the next theme after this is only built off of this.
01:21:11
Matt
I think this is such a great, strong starting point for this tv version of Superman that we have.
01:21:16
Dan
Weirdly enough, it takes the elements of the kryptonian thing that were talking about before with the Hans Zimmer stuff and being, like, making it really a definitive aspect of her life. And that makes sense because she is so much more aware of her kryptonian heritage than Clark was, in the sense of, like, you see her more as Kara Zor El as opposed to Cara Danvers. Her human identity.
01:21:42
Case
Yeah, she didn't have to have super memory to remember her time on Krypton. She just had regular memory. Regular memory was sufficient for this because that used to be the thing in the sixties. Like, how does Superman know anything about Krypton? Oh, he has super power. I can think really hard among the superpowers. So when I was writing a lot of the Superman analog threads on Twitter, and I did a huge run on the various characters who've been named Supergirl, because while Chara is the one that we know of now, there's been, like, five who have a legitimate claim to being called Supergirl. And for all of them, but also every version of Chara, specifically. Sacrifice has been a big theme for the character.
01:22:21
Case
The original Supergirl that showed up, which was a creation made by a magic wand that Jimmy Olsen had, where he wished that a girl who could be like Superman sacrificed herself to save Superman from kryptonite. Kara, infamously, in the eighties, died saving Superman from the Anti Monitor. Various versions of other supergirls have sacrificed themselves either to save timelines like Sorrel, or with Linda Danvers, the matrix entity, Supergirl, the Earth angels. A lot of words to say to explain who that character is. Not going to go into. All of them right now. Well, just suffice it to say, the nineties one sacrificed herself to save time and also her daughter.
01:23:02
Case
And then the version of Kara that we got, that ever since then, has been given this familial responsibility as a protector for Superman, and one that she has unfortunately, not even been able to live up to as much as she wants, but has always been set up to be. Like, now, I should say, has always. But since that revival in the early two thousands has been like, oh, it's the older cousin. She was forced to leave her home to protect her family and to protect the legacy of her people. And how much has she given up to be there? That even goes back to Argo City in the first place, where she's the only survivor. And other people could have been sent away at every point, they're like, no.
01:23:38
Case
The best chance for what's important about us to survive is to make sure that you make it there. There's enough fuel for one ship. I don't know if we have enough for two. To get Chara off. To get Chara to a place where she can thrive. And that is a part of Supergirl now. It is this much more mature standpoint, and the character is optimistic, but it is in a different kind of way. It is recognizing the beauty, even in the tragedy of her life. And I think that's kind of a cool element of chara that the show really nailed.
01:24:07
Dan
Yeah, I agree with that for sure.
01:24:09
Case
So let's move on to what is a spin off of this show. Which is Superman and Lois. So theme that I dropped in is actually a mashup of the two Superman themes that they have. The one that is from Supergirl initially, which I believe has been used at times in the show, and then the one actually for the show itself, which is kind of short. So the initial part of it is by Blake Neely because it's part of the supergirl run. And then it's Dan Roemer who did the second half of it. And I like them both. I like them both a lot. The stuff coming from Supergirl, I thought was fantastic. It sells this character so well. Like Tyler Hoechlin as Superman, I think he's great. He's my favorite Clark Kent. Like, full stop favorite Clark Kent.
01:24:51
Case
And I think he does a perfectly fine job as Superman. And theme that they're using here, particularly the roamer stuff for the show, I find works really well to sell this older, more mature. Like, Heckland's like a youngish guy, but he is a father in the show of two teenage boys. And, like, that element of, like, he's already found himself. He's not, it's not the man of steel theme where he's at odds with himself, trying to figure out who he is at this point. No, he knows he's Superman. He knows all the stuff about that. He has found the woman he loves and he's raising people. And it is a different type of burden than who am I angst. It's how do I protect my children and the world?
01:25:28
Dan
Weirdly enough, this entire interpretation down to theme and orchestration has been my favorite interpretation of the character, period, because it reveals a lot about the notion of what it means to be a man in the context of, like, having such a larger than life personality that is known by the rest of the world and to the point where, like, season two kind of plays with that a little bit to some degree, they introduce Bizarro and Bizarro world. And in that, in Bizarro world, Superman is actually hailed as, like, a rock star. He comes out with his, comes out, says that he's Clark Kent. And, like, he is, he just becomes Superman full time. And that's like, his full time job and he's a rock star.
01:26:13
Dan
And they kind of tie it to, like, the bizarroness of himself sort of just falls victim to, like, addiction and the struggles of, like, of, like, being, living up to the idea of, like, what Superman should be. And I find that fascinating because it's just like, it explores this idea of like, what if Clark Kent really embraced the mask of what Superman is and how many people perceive him to be that thing when in reality he is very much just human being in the sense, like, they really take the time to say, like, I mean, like, he's the coach on his kids football team in Smallville. He's, he gets, he becomes unemployed in the first episode of the show. He gets fired from the Daily Planet.
01:27:00
Dan
And he goes, has to go back to, he essentially goes back to Smallville to sort of, like, refocus on, like, what his life should be. He faces, like, real struggles just dealing with, like, general town politics and the way and, like, how trying to help his wife in her career as a journalist and having her work in small town journalism, all sorts of different facets of life and how sort of just really just how life sort of throws us challenges that I was missing for the character, from the character for so long. Like, I identified more with Clark Kent being the main thrust of who Superman is as opposed to Superman. The idea, you know, and I think this orchestration by Dan Roemer does a really great job at that.
01:27:51
Dan
And just the way in which it ties, it sort of just weaves this sort of knowingness that it is like, it isn't necessarily, like, epic like Superman, but it is just like a Clark Kent who is so confident in who he is despite people thinking of him as the ideal of Superman. Like, I hear theme play and you like that. The one scene from the show that gets retweeted online so often is when, like, he goes up to that kid he saves and he's like, that's a cool costume.
01:28:23
Case
Thanks.
01:28:23
Dan
My mom made it for me. And that theme is. And theme is playing as that's happening. And when I saw that for the first time, I was just like, I got chills. I was like, this is what I've been missing for, like, my entire life from this character that I never thought I would be able to get where it's just like, he's just a guy trying his best. He's a guy with a mom. He's a guy with a dad. He's trying his best to make it through the world. He has a wife and kids at home. And he just has to, he has to deal with struggles of, like, sure, being a rock star in the sense of, like, the Superman, the idea, but he's also just, he's just a dude. And this theme seems to encompass that a lot.
01:29:05
Matt
Yeah. Admittedly, this is the only of all of this stuff. This is the only thing I've not seen, I've seen Tyler Haeclan as Superman in Supergirl, but I've not actually seen the. The Superman and Lois show. I've wanted to, and I just. I haven't. But like this. I know, I know. Look, I edited the episode where y'all talk about it, so I heard about it.
01:29:26
Dan
We all can't be Scott, absorb all of culture at once.
01:29:30
Matt
But, like, I will say that, like, I've loved his performance. I love this Lois. She is easily one of the best Lois's we've ever seen on screen. And like, this. This perfects what Lois and Clark tried to do without this. This really shows the dynamic of a couple who loves each other, who is also trying to be superheroes. They both are. Right. Lois Lane is a superhero in her own right. So, like, this show really plays to that, from what I've heard about it. And so I do want to watch it at some point. But this theme, absolutely both the Supergirl version that they use to introduce him and then even the Dan Roemer version that's for the show, make me want to watch the show in a way that I don't know the other themes would have because I just.
01:30:12
Matt
I saw them with the property. I didn't hear them after. But this I'm hearing in isolation, especially the Dan Romer one. And I'm like, wow, this is really great. This. This does speak to all the things that Dan is talking about. And I think of the modern interpretations of Superman. I think it gets. Yeah, that he's just a guy. Like, I. I love Superman. But my biggest complaint that a lot of Superman fans, like Superman naysayers had is he's unstoppable. It's boring. And yes, when he is like that, it is very true. Those stories about Superman are very boring. And it's part of the problem with man of Steel is those moments where he's just an invulnerable brute. No one cares. That's not why people want to watch Superman.
01:30:50
Matt
But this version of Superman has that vulnerability, both in theme and what I've seen of the character on Supergirl and immediately makes it more interesting to me than any other version of this character.
01:31:01
Case
Yeah. Like, I think the one thing I'll say in opposition to what you just said is that I think it is telling a different phase of the relationship than Lois and Clark. Like, Lois and Clark is the nascent love for them. And this, what is, I think, amazing about it is that from a storytelling perspective of Superman as dad I think is so good. Like, the fact of the matter is, like, yeah, he is unstoppable, but he might be unstoppable, but he still can't be at two places at once. So if he misses therapy with one of his sons or he misses his other son's football game or all of those things, like, that is. Those are the limitations of the character. Those are spots where he is just not able to do everything.
01:31:39
Case
He might be able to do anything, but he's just not able to do all the things he needs to all the time. And so that's where we get the stress. You know, he's not there for everyone because he fails at it. And some people have a mature relationship about it. Like, there's a scene in the first season where he misses out, like, he was supposed to help out Lois on, like, a big town thing, and, like, he can't be there because he has to be Superman somewhere. And she's really mad when he gets to her. And she's like, no, I know you have an excuse. You're Superman.
01:32:11
Dan
You literally do the most incredible thing any person could do, right?
01:32:17
Case
And she understands that. And, you know, but she's like, but I still need to be angry, and I still need to hold onto this anger because I have to go yell at her son.
01:32:23
Dan
It was one of the most psychologically mature things that I had ever seen on television, where it's just like, can I just be mad and let the thing be mad? And he's like, sure, I'm totally fine with that. I understand it. Just let it out. You know, there is such a level of care and maturity about the relationship between not only him and Lois, but him and his sons to where it's like, I think he understands that so much of who he is now is defined by the totality of the people that he's surrounded himself with. And, you know. Cause, like, Batman's always had that angle of, like, the bat family, the kids that he indoctrinates into his crime fighting life. But this is like. It's genuinely like he is supported by his.
01:33:12
Dan
But Superman and Clark Kent are supported by his actual family, and Lois Lane is supported by her actual family. And each son feels like the weight of the responsibility of needing to be able to be a part of this thing and also feeling like they are somewhat at odds with the system that is sort of that they've been born into. And I find the balance of all those things and the way everything has played out so far has just been really fascinating and a beautiful examination of family dynamics in the context of these larger than life characters.
01:33:49
Case
I want to bring it back to the actual theme part of it. And I think here's the way there's a vibe going on in theme that feels kind of like a little house on the prairies type thing.
01:33:58
Dan
Yeah.
01:33:59
Case
And that goes for. So they move back to Smallville. And Clark is so happy to be back at Smallville. And there's this element of just, like, looking at all the places he grew up in and, like, smiling, like, that nostalgia for a place that was so important to who you were, not necessarily who you are now, but it meant so much to you. And, like, trying to stay connected to that all. Like, there's this big theme of him, like, reconnecting with his friends from high school and, like, showing the boys the town that he grew up in and loved. But they're. They grew up in Metropolis. Like, they're used to, like, live their city boys, like, and it's like a weird juxtaposition for them. And theme, I think, does a really good job of, you know, it feels like.
01:34:37
Case
It feels like the Superman score looking over the cornfield. Like, it's a. It's a theme that would work really well also for, like, Superman for all seasons, but this is that mature. Like, he's pop now. Like, he. Like that. That's his role now.
01:34:49
Dan
That's a good way to interpret it. Yeah.
01:34:51
Case
And I think theme does a really good job of selling that. And I don't. I don't have the musical lexicon to really explain what I'm talking about here. But, like, I think if you hear it and you think, like, can you look at the moon while, like, from a cornfield? And, like, while listening to this, they're like, yeah, no, that feels like the right epic.
01:35:05
Dan
It's. You want the moon, Mary? I can turn that lasso around and pull it down to you kind of thing where it's like, folks see kind of, like, you know, it is almost a mature interpretation to showcase, like, who Superman could be if he grew beyond the ideal of what everybody in the world has sort of set him up to be.
01:35:27
Case
Yeah. So that's. I think we set our piece on this one. I think it's a great theme, and that's the last one we had to talk about on this list. So we want to come back next time and talk more about songs. But instead of being the ways of expressing Superman in music, it's music that is influenced by Superman as a pop culture figure. So we'll be back next time for that conversation with Matt. But Dan, you're not coming back for that one. So, Dan, this is your first time on the show. You've become a legend in the pop culture podcasting field, the friend of all pods. But give your plugs to anything you want to mention while you're here. I'm just glad that you're on the show, finally.
01:36:07
Dan
I'm glad to be on the show. Weirdly enough, Superman has become a character as I've gotten older, as somebody that I can identify and aspire to be towards a lot more, especially with regards to, again, as I've mentioned just recently, the Superman and Lois, it's just, it feels like. It feels like that's the person that I'm, like, trying to aim for in terms of, like, I want to, like, live my life like that to some degree. But as you could also probably tell, music is very much a big facet of my life. And in addition to being. In addition to having been on a bunch of podcasts amongst the sort of community of podcasters related to pop culture, pop comics, all that kind of stuff, I am a singer songwriter, a composer and producer for different things.
01:36:58
Dan
I've done the Stingers for the Infinity podcast. I did the this is not a news sort of series of Stingers. I recently just did one for the podcast that I currently work on and sort of am the producer are four. They wanted a relationship corner. It's a podcast about mental health, and they wanted, like, a specific little stinger about a relationship corner. I did the comics quest theme for JD Martin. I've done a lot of music in that regard, and in addition to that, I sort of have my own artist project as me, Dan Purcell. Last year, I released an ep of seven songs, and this coming summer, I'm going to be starting to roll out what is going to be my debut album starting in the month of June.
01:37:41
Dan
I'm not sure when this is going to air, but starting in the month of June, you can check out all of, like, the first couple of singles that are going to be dropping from that album with fingers crossed. Hopefully the full album will be released along with a music video that I'm actually working on with Seth from the film Rescue podcast sometime in August. But if you would like to find out when the definitive dates for those things were going to happen, you can follow me on all social media platforms at the Dan Purcell. That's Hehdan Purcell, and you can follow me on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, the whole nine yards, YouTube.
01:38:23
Dan
If you like the whole nine yards, you'll find out when I'm gonna be posting stuff and you can stream me on your favorite streaming platform of choice, be it Spotify, Apple Music, tidal, Soundcloud, Deezer. Who uses Deezer? I have no idea, but I like to incorporate them because apparently people find it Deezer important.
01:38:45
Case
Dan, he's big on Deezer.
01:38:47
Dan
Yes, I'm big on Deezer. And yeah, I'm just. I'm really glad that we finally got the opportunity to connect and really get and have an opportunity to talk about two things that I really love, Superman and music.
01:38:58
Case
Yeah, this was a really fun chat. I was really glad you could be here. Everyone should check out your album, which will have dropped by the time this episode comes out. Yeah, we're recording this in May, but this is definitely not coming out.
01:39:10
Dan
Check out grow better.
01:39:11
Case
We'll see where we're at when it actually drops. Definitely not you, Matt, thank you for coming on. Listeners may know that you are the editor for the show, but you've got a lot of stuff. So plugs.
01:39:24
Matt
Sure. I'm not gonna plug at all. I mean, if you like the opening bits and the post credit bits to the shows, I pick out like 90% of them, so you can thank me for that. You know, when case isn't screwing up some part of the intro outro, I find some other good gems within the show. I'm happy to be here, of course. I loved coming on and talking about Superman, the animated series. It's great to actually be on an episode with J Mike, the one might argue better, definitely more handsome. Half of the podcast.
01:39:49
Case
All of this is true, yeah.
01:39:52
Matt
But yeah, I do a ton of different shit. I edit a bunch of shows on the network. I, of course, host four shows on certain POV. All of them can be found@certainpov.com. Dot if you want to check out all the things I do both on and off the network, you can go to djstormageddon.com. I am DJ Stormageddon, literally on every social media platform and on Twitch. And yeah, I'm not gonna plug each individual show because that'll be a huge pain in the ass and waste of everyone's time. So instead, again, DJ stormageddon on Twitter, where I'm most active. Or djstormageddon.com dot j Mike, where can people find you?
01:40:22
Jmike
You always do this. I follow everyone up with all their fancy stuff. I'm like, I'm not that popular. You can find me on Twitter aike 101. I crack jokes with case and Matt. Sometimes I have a mean gift game. It's true.
01:40:38
Case
You do.
01:40:39
Matt
Best in the business.
01:40:40
Jmike
Exactly.
01:40:42
Case
As for me, you can find me Ace Aiken. You can find the show on Twitter, in podcast. I do other stuff. You can find the videos we're working on the certain POV YouTube channel. So I've got the Superman analog videos and we've got the side quest videos that I edit. But Matt is the one who actually corrals that whole baby. So he gets me the audio. I make the videos, baby. You can find again those on the certain POV YouTube channel. So look up certainpov Media and then we've got another pass. And I'll probably insert the audio of what the next episode is because I'm trying to actually be good about that shit. But that'll be bad. Don't worry. And here I am, as case from the future to tell you that another pass.
01:41:25
Case
We just did an episode on Murder on the Orient Express. Over on the Superman analogues YouTube series. We just did a roundup of the various Miss Marvels, and we're now animating clips from all of our shows. So check those out at the certain POV YouTube channel, back to the past.
01:41:40
Matt
Okay, great.
01:41:40
Case
But yeah, you should check out everything our wonderful guests are working on. You should check out J Mike's gift game. You should check out the stuff that I'm putting out there. But until next time, stay super man.
01:41:52
Jmike
Men of steel is a certain POV production. Our hosts are J Mike Folson and case Aiken. The show is edited by Matt Storm. Our logo is by Chris Bautista. Episode art is by case Aiken. And our theme is by Jeff Moon.
01:42:10
Case
Alright, so it's gonna be one, two, three, and then clap. All right. All right. One, two, three.
01:42:17
Matt
Look at that. All audio people in sync. And I'm assuming J Mike was because I can't see him.
01:42:22
Jmike
Yes.
01:42:24
Matt
Hi, I'm Matt, aka Stormgen, and I'm the host of CPOV autographs@certainpov.com. It is a bi weekly interview series where I interview folks from all over the arts, from writers to comedians to magicians to musicians, even actors, historians, podcasters, pretty much anyone who's willing to chat with me for a little bit. If you like interesting conversations with even more interesting people, go to certainpov.com or wherever you get your podcasts. And remember, music is life and life is good.
01:42:54
Case
Cpov certainpov.com.